Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 4 Jul 1944

Vol. 28 No. 20

Public Business. - Finance Bill, 1944 (Certified Money Bill)—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Bille é seo, mar is léir óna theideal, chun diúitéthe áirithe ioncaim dúiche d'éileamh agus do ghearradh, chun an dlí bhaineas le custaim agus ioncam dúiche, maraon le mál, do leasú, agus chun tuilleadh forál i dtaobh airgeadais do dhéanamh. Baineann an chuid is mó dá bhfuil ann leis na Rúin Airgeadais lenar ghlac an Dáil tar éis na Cáinfhaisnéise. Ós rud é nár gearradh aon chánacha nua le cáinfhaisnéis na bliana seo, ní dhéanann an Bille seo ach na cánacha atá ann cheana do bhuanú arís; ach athraíonn sé cáin ioncaim agus cáin bhrabúis chorpráide ar bhealaí áirithe. Tá cúpla mion-rud eile sa Bhille, freisin, ar a dtabharfa mé tuairisc le linn a scrúduithe sa Teach so.

Níor deineadh aon athruithe, mar is eol daoibh, ar na cánacha coitianta i mbliana ach chomh beag. Nuair a bhí na figiúirí airgeadais go léir bailithe agus scrúdaithe agam, bhí sé soiléir ná beadh ar mo chumas an caiteachas go léir fháil trí chánacha, gan ualach rothrom do chur ar lucht íoctha cánach. Mar sin do shocraíos ar an méid sa mbreis a bhí uaim dfháil ar iasacht mar a dheineas anuiridh. Is é mo thuairim go n-aontóidh na Seanadóirí liom sa bheart san.

Senators no doubt are already familiar with the main features of the 1944 Budget which I introduced in Dáil Éireann on the 3rd May last. I do not propose, therefore, to trouble them with the complicated details of national revenue and expenditure which I then placed before the other House and which are contained in the various White Papers then presented. In conformity with the Budget the Finance Bill, 1944, contains no new taxes. It provides, however, for a number of adjustments in regard to income-tax and corporation profits tax and for one or two minor matters which I shall explain in the course of its passage through the House.

When I addressed the Seanad on the Second Stage of the Finance Bill, 1943, I pointed that the revenue estimates for 1943-44 were framed on the assumption that no major disturbance would arise affecting our economy and I am glad to say that this assumption was justified. Although we have had to contend with many difficulties arising in particular from the curtailment of vital supplies, we have been able through imports from abroad and intensified development of native resources to continue to provide industry and agriculture with a fair measure of essential materials and equipment. As a result economic activity in 1943-44 continued to be fairly satisfactory and I am glad to be able to report a continuance during the year of that welcome buoyancy in the revenues to which I referred here last year.

The yield of revenue at £43,780,000 was, indeed, remarkably heavy, being £2,198,000 in excess of the estimate and £4,052,000 in excess of the previous year, despite the fact that the 1943 Budget effected only minor alterations in taxation. Receipts from property and income-tax, including surtax, increased by nearly £1,500,000, and from corporation profits tax by over £1,000,000. The return for customs and excise was also beyond expectations. Tobacco, which contributed about four-fifths of the total customs revenue, yielded £9,081,000, being an increase of £1,112,000 on the previous year, whilst on the excise side, beer and spirits yielded £6,299,000, an increase of £1,112,000, on the previous year, whilst on the excise side, beer and spirits £1,000,000. As expenditure at £45,009,000 was £1,160,000 less than anticipated, the close of the financial year revealed an actual deficit of £529,000 as compared with an estimated deficit of £3,555,000.

As regards the current year, our estimate of tax revenue on the basis of existing taxation is £39,050,000, an increase of £1,882,000 over the actual receipts for 1943-44. Customs revenue at £11,605,000 is expected to show an increase of £217,000, excise revenue at £8,780,000, an increase of over £750,000 and inland revenue at £18,215,000 (£11,510,000 from income-tax) an improvement of £982,000 on the previous year. As non-tax revenue is estimated at £6,585,000, the total receipts of tax and non-tax revenue are estimated at £45,635,000. The position, therefore, is that, emboldened by the unexpectedly heavy yields in 1943-44, we are budgeting for £4,053,000 in excess of last year's estimate.

I must, however, emphasise once again that this somewhat optimistic estimate is dependent on a variety of circumstances over few of which we can exercise effective control. It has been framed in anticipation of the economic fabric of the country remaining undisturbed. There can, of course, be no certainty as to this. In these days of diminishing supplies, the estimated increases in yields from customs and excise, for example, cannot be regarded as anything but conjectural. Indeed, difficulties have already been experienced in obtaining sufficient supplies of tobacco leaf, while the curtailment of racing fixtures and entertainments owing to transport and lighting restrictions may seriously affect the yield of revenue under these heads. Further, in estimating for an increased yield from income-tax, we have assumed that there will be an increase in commercial profits generally but this assumption may be seriously upset if the present acute trading difficulties become accentuated or prolonged.

As regards expenditure, the original estimated cost of the Supply Services was £44,983,000. As I pointed out on Budget day in the Dáil, to this must be added provision for Supplementary Estimates of £180,000 for the Department of Supplies in respect of wheat subsidy; £34,000 for the Department of Local Government in respect of the provision of cheap footwear, and £33,000 for the Department of Industry and Commerce in respect of mineral development, making a total of £45,230,000. Since then, however, four Supplementary Estimates for sums totalling £347,810 have been presented to the Dáil to cover additional estimated expenditure of £342,000 by the Department of Supplies in respect of fuel subsidy (£200,000) and the building of additional turf camps (£142,000), £3,000 for reformatory and industrial schools, £2,800 for the Department of External Affairs, and a token Vote for unemployment insurance and unemployment assistance. Further, the Government has recently authorised millers to dispose of mill offals, resulting from the production of the lower extraction flour, at a price below the £15 per ton previously fixed in May of this year. In January last it was estimated that approximately £2,000,000 would be required to subsidise flour during 1944/45. The estimated annual loss to the industry arising from the sale of offals at reduced prices is £510,000, which could be met either by an increase in the price of flour of approximately 5/- per sack, which would mean an increase of 1d. in the price of the 4lb. loaf, or by an increase in the flour subsidy. The Government, having regard to the reactions which a rise in the price of flour would have on the cost-of-living index figures, has decided on the latter course, and I have agreed to the introduction by the Department of Supplies at a later date of a Supplementary Estimate in respect of flour subsidy. Accordingly, to the estimated total figure of £45,230,000 for Supply Services, referred to above, must now be added sums of £347,810 and £510,000 to make a revised total estimate of approximately £46,087,800.

Following precedent, certain specific outlays of a capital nature amounting to £1,069,000 have been earmarked to be defrayed from borrowing, thereby reducing the total amount in respect of Supply Services to be met out of revenue to £45,018,800, to which is to be added £4,994,000 for Central Fund Services, making a total of £50,012,800. The total estimated revenue at £45,635,000 is £4,377,800 less than this estimated expenditure figure. I do not consider it feasible, however, to bridge this gap by additional taxation. Existing imposts are heavy and, as our economic difficulties become more acute, it will take the combined efforts of all sections of the community to avoid economic dislocation on a large scale. I have no doubt that Senators will agree with me that increased taxation is not the type of lubricant desired for such a situation. I propose, therefore, to meet the uncovered deficit by borrowing.

The amount of our estimated expenditure is unprecedented, but I would say that nearly one-third of it refers to services which we would not have to finance in normal times. With the passing of the emergency, we can look forward to radical reductions in charges such as those arising from the special provisions to meet the increase in the cost of living, estimated at nearly £8,000,000 for the current year, and from the expansion in the Army, the cost of which is now over £8,600,000. On the other hand, it must be borne in mind that our plans for the post-war period must involve the Exchequer in increased expenditure. Plans for housing, the provision of school accommodation, afforestation, arterial drainage and tourist development, are under consideration. It is estimated that the electrification of the rural areas will involve considerable expenditure. The proposed reorganisation of transport, with the details of which Senators no doubt are already familiar, will involve the Exchequer in contingent liabilities of substantial amounts. Plans have also been made for building and reconstruction projects of many kinds, especially in relation to hospitals and public health services.

Having regard to our limited resources, execution of the foregoing programme must, of course, be based on certain assumptions, namely, that the cost of the Defence Services will be greatly reduced after the war and that emergency services of the kind to which I have already referred will practically disappear. The twin burdens of emergency services and post-war development would be unsupportable. Whether our plans for the future come to fruition depends also to a great extent on the success of our efforts now in maintaining intact the credit of the country and stimulating employment in agriculture and industry.

In the monetary sphere, it is inevitable having regard to our position, that the pressure of inflationary forces should become steadily more acute as the emergency is prolonged. The Government has tried to control by every means at its disposal the upward movement of prices, which is the active factor in inflation, and, by maintaining checks on profits and remuneration and by the encouragement of savings, to restrict purchasing power. I regret to say, however, that despite our efforts, we have not been wholly successful in restricting these inflationary forces. Indeed, the rise in prices of commodities produced here has now reached such dimensions that any further continuance must be strenuously opposed. We must endeavour to preserve our price and wage structure from becoming so deranged as to endanger our eventual resumption of international trade on a favourable basis. In its further efforts to check unhealthy expansion the Government must have the full co-operation of all citizens.

The financial position which I have just outlined contains many sources of danger. We are increasing expenditure without any serious increase in taxation, and our estimates of revenue are, in present circumstances, based on somewhat optimistic grounds. In recent years, however, we have been blessed with revenue yields far in excess of anticipation which have helped to reduce borrowings much below anticipated levels. Even if our hopes in this respect do not materialise in the current year, I think that our financial structure should be capable of bearing the strain.

This occasion is the swan song of the present Seanad and possibly for some of us our own personal swan song, and one wonders whether it is worth while at this stage playing any notes at all. However, some things the Minister has said struck a responsive note in me. He said that we must keep our price and wage structure right during this war so as to be able to resume trade after the war. It would be no harm if we remembered that this is what the Minister himself called a £50,000,000 Budget. It is a £50,000,000 Budget for a very small State and it is coming to be regarded as a normal thing. It is coupled, as the Minister pointed out, with a very buoyant revenue, a revenue which is buoyant perhaps for causes which may be transient. It is coupled also with a very substantial increase in note and money circulation of our own—we have no figures, I think, for the increased circulation of English notes and money which most traders will tell you is also very substantial—and, as the Minister pointed out in the concluding part of his speech, with an enormous rise in the cost of living, even in the case of home-produced food and goods. One of the things which it is impossible for the ordinary consumer to understand is the amazing difference between the price one pays for, say, a single carrot in Dublin and the price which the primary producer gets for growing it. There is something substantially wrong in a position which makes the cost of our home-produced food so enormous as it is, not only in Dublin but also in comparatively small country towns.

As well as these things I have mentioned, we have, so far as our future is concerned, a very low marriage rate and a late marriage rate; that is to say, our people marry at the latest age of any European people, according to the latest figures available. In addition, as the Minister for Education indicated recently and as we ourselves know, the Department of Education has had to make special arrangements for rural schools where the average is declining and teachers are being dismissed because of falling averages. We have had to close down our training colleges for teachers because we do not require any more, as there are no more children available, and while we are closing down small rural schools in the healthiest possible surroundings, we are apparently proud to be building in Dublin enormous schools—a very doubtful experiment, which is perhaps not quite relevant to this debate.

We have as well as a continuing emigration, an emigration at the moment of turf workers and agricultural workers, who, so far as I can gather from cases which have come under my observation, are being sent out of the country. In spite of having continuing emigration and a large Army, we also have substantial continuing unemployment. Coupled with all that, we have a £50,000,000 Budget and for the future we have apparently not a plan for using every possible scientific and other method to increase our agricultural production, but grandiose schemes for magnificent roads where traffic grows less and for tourist development, for the development of resorts for foreigners and city people, while the natives themselves are every day becoming fewer. It seems to me that we must, as the Minister said, face up with some good will to our own problems and face up to them in a more realistic way than is indicated by these recent statements of Ministers.

I should like to deal with only one matter to-day. There has been an enormous increase in prices, an enormous increase in the cost of living. For certain people, there have been increases in their income. There have been higher profits for certain types of manufacturers and certain classes of merchants. This particular Finance Bill takes very elaborate and very drastic measures to catch excess profits that are being made by some people, and which, with all their ingenuity, the Revenue Commissioners have apparently so far failed to attract unto themselves. In that situation, we have provisions in this Bill designed to catch new profits that are being made, and we do not need to be very observant to know that there are some people making very great profits.

There is a degree of inflation. Some part of that, perhaps, is outside the Government's power, but what steps have been taken to stop it? The only step we had here was a very ill-thought out provision that clamped down wages, and made some attempt to clamp down profits and directors' fees. That ill-thought out measure was altered after debate in this House. The Government had to take account of the fact that, when prices are going up, wages cannot be clamped down, and they had to make further arrangements which give certain bonuses to workers. But it is interesting that the Government, with an increased revenue itself, with which the Minister is naturally pleased, has been peculiarly harsh in its treatment of its own servants. With regard to civil servants, they have clamped down their bonus at an arbitrary figure. Having done that, they had to retreat to some extent and give emergency bonuses to civil servants who had a gross salary of less than £500 a year. The civil servant with over £500 a year finds himself in the position that his cost of living bonus is arbitrarily fixed at a figure much lower than the actual figure, and that as well as that he can get no increase at all for the emergency. One wonders how the figure of £500 was arrived at, what the equity of it is, and what the result has been for those people. The civil servant, of course, tends to be unpopular because of the general view that he is very well off, but this particular measure of the Minister affects people who have no redress at all; it sets a headline to other large institutions such as banks, and enables the Minister to refuse any request for increases from teachers, primary and secondary. One wonders why one particular class in the community is selected to do all the fighting against inflation. I agree that we should all fight against inflation, but why should one particular class of the community be called upon to bear the brunt of the battle?

In this country the number of people who are not self-supporting is increasing steadily. I do not want to go into it now, but I could give instances where people have put it to me that they would be foolish to go on supporting themselves because if they were not self-supporting they would be better off. This fight against inflation which is being waged by the Minister by the process of preventing certain types of civil servants from getting any increase at all is very hard, and is hardest upon people who have always been proud to be self-supporting. That particular class of the community pay full rent for their houses—they do not live in subsidised houses; they come in for increased rates; those of them who own their houses, and there is a fair number of them in that position, have come in for a special increase in the income-tax on the valuation through a provision also made by the Minister for Finance. Those people have no sickness benefits; they have no dental benefits and no optical benefits. They pay for their children's education, at least in part, and those of them who have the misfortune to have daughters instead of sons and cannot send them to Christian Brothers' schools have to pay substantial fees for education. In their circumstances, it seems to me to be quite inequitable that they should be called upon to live on their pre-war incomes in a situation which differs radically from pre-war circumstances, where the price of everything has soared—the price of every kind of food, even subsidised food, the price of clothes, the price of boots, and—not by any means the smallest item—the price of books, particularly school books. Their standard of living has been reduced, and their possessions— not very luxurious ones—are going in many cases, while they can see around them a number of people who, under the Government's policy, have got rich comparatively rapidly. That state of affairs is not one which leads to calm, or which is good for the State.

It may very well be argued that there should be an all-round level of income, the same standard for everybody. That has been tried in other places, notably in Russia, and, by the process of trial and error, found to be a failure. I never heard anybody advocating it here. What we have been witnessing is a determined attempt on the part of the Minister to keep wages down, an attempt which failed, or, at any rate, partially failed. It has been successful with only one class, the class of people who have to do their work, who have to endeavour to live, who have to endeavour to keep a certain front, so to speak, to the world, and have no redress at all from the point of view of their incomes. We have an enormous number of civil servants on small incomes, and a certain number of others on incomes of over £500 a year, in posts which are becoming less and less attractive for the best people. It may very well be that we will all have to accept lower standards. If we have to, all we can say is: "Welcome be the will of God." We may have to adopt certain drastic methods to save the whole country, but in the process of saving the whole country there should be some kind of equitable arrangement as between different classes of the community; the burdens should be properly distributed. What I say here can be extended to teachers, notably to secondary teachers, with whom I am better acquainted than any others. They have always been badly paid, and are now peculiarly badly-off, because they have no scheme of any kind by which they can increase their incomes.

The Minister will have to face up to this situation. I am not speaking politically, but some attempt will have to be made to adjust certain types of incomes to the change in the cost of living. That applies to all kinds of teachers, primary, secondary and university. I do not know of anybody in a more lamentable position than the man of 26 years of age who, having done a distinguished course, gets a job at £300 a year and has the temerity to get married. If he has the further extravagant rashness to become a father, the situation is lamentable in the extreme. If he could get a corporation house he might be better off, but the circumstances are such that he cannot do so. We have to recognise certain distinctions and differences. Another section who are very badly off are soldiers' widows, and soldiers with disablement and other pensions. The Minister will have to take account of those problems, and will have to get assistance to solve them if anybody can give him assistance, but most emphatically they will have to be solved. There has been entire failure to control the cost of living, and it is pressing very heavily upon those people. I am not saying for a moment that it is not pressing upon others, but others have got some relief and have machinery— which may be successful—for pressing their claims.

Let me take another example; the amounts payable in workmen's compensation are lamentably small in present circumstances. A figure which was not too bad at all before the present war is now very bad indeed when the father of a family is disabled by an accident which takes place during the course of his work. With a buoyant revenue, with an enormous Budget, and with a rising expenditure on an enormous scale, and a high cost of living, we will have to face up to what we can do about these people. It is not sufficient merely to say that you cannot do anything because of the danger of inflation. The danger of inflation is there, but, if some sacrifices have to be made to meet that danger, then some attempt will have to be made to put the sacrifices equitably upon the shoulders of all concerned.

Apart from that, there are some matters in this Bill that I would like to deal with in Committee, not that I am either a financier or an industrialist, but I am interested in certain principles of government. Sections 14 and 15 of the Bill appear to me to contain very interesting provisions. The Revenue Commissioners are, apparently, endeavouring to catch certain people, and in order to catch certain people, they do not state any principle in the Bill. They merely give themselves enormous powers and then give the Revenue Commissioners a discretion so that they need not exercise the powers. That is an old familiar method. I am not for a moment accusing the Revenue Commissioners of misfeasance of any kind. They are people who do their jobs fearlessly. They have a very difficult job and they do it fearlessly, but they are being given in Section 14 of the Bill an extraordinary set of powers. However, we can deal with that matter on the Committee Stage. On the Civil Service point, which is hurting a great many people outside the Civil Service because the Civil Service analogy has been quoted against many employers, I wonder why the Minister fixed £500 gross: why he did not go higher or lower, for that matter. I think there can be no defence in equity or justice for keeping the figure as low as that, and I think that if the Minister were to give the matter his attention he would be able to improve that situation.

I, like Senator Hayes, want to sing my swan song.

A pretty good sign that you are both coming back.

I want to say that while I appreciate and recognise the Senator's advocacy of civil servants—he told the Minister that he had succeeded in keeping down wages in their case only—at the same time, I think that he was very far from the truth in saying that.

I did not say that. I said that the Minister had succeeded in keeping down wages to some extent, but that he had been compelled, owing to my advocacy here and that of other people, to yield on the question of certain types of wages.

I understood the Senator to say that his efforts had been very successful in the case of civil servants only. I want to point out to the Minister and to the House that there is a very large number of people suffering very great hardships—public employees generally, for example—owing to the fact that they come under the regulations referred to. The number of such people is very great, and includes a very large number of heads of families. They have been harshly dealt with under the regulations governing wages. Take the case of asylum attendants, their wages have been clamped down. No doubt, owing to the activities of their trade unions, the hardships which they would otherwise suffer have been mitigated to some extent by the payment of bonuses. The trade unions have taken full advantage of these bonuses. While I say that, I do not think there is any trade union or trade unionist to-day who would admit that the bonuses which are being paid to workers are, in any way, commensurate with the enormous increase there has been in the cost of living. Those workers are suffering very great hardships.

I believe that the working classes in this country are becoming somewhat too quiescent. There is very little turmoil or trouble. Whether it is that their patriotism makes them recognise that there is a war on and that they have to suffer their share of the hardships of the time I do not know, but certainly since the beginning of the emergency the working classes have been very patient and tolerant of the conditions under which they have been living. Now, you can force that a bit too far. I suggest that more attention ought to be given to this question of the cost of living. Published statements show that there is considerable black market activity in the country to-day. We all know that people with money can procure commodities which are in short supply. They are able to get them in much the same way as they were before the war. I have heard of people paying as much as 1/11 an ounce for tea. That may seem extraordinary. We all know, however, that people who are fond of a cup of tea, particularly old people, will, if they can raise the money at all, pay almost any price for tea. That is a matter which I suggest to the Minister should engage his serious attention. Steps should be taken to prevent a continuance of that kind of thing. What applies in the case of tea applies, to a somewhat lesser extent, to many other commodities.

Another feature of our economic position to-day is that old age pensioners, and people receiving pensions from industrial employment, are not allowed to receive the full amount of their pensions. This is a matter that is crying out for a remedy. It is an urgent and a serious matter because of the fact that so many people are enduring hardships as a result of the attitude adopted by the Government on this point. Their attitude tends to discourage thrift amongst working-class people. Those who would be inclined to put something by for their old age will be discouraged to do so by a policy of this kind. What is the good of utilising the screen in the cinemas to encourage saving and thrift amongst people when they know that if they save a little money advantage will be taken of that afterwards to reduce the amount of the pensions to which they are duly entitled? I suggest that the Minister should take the earliest opportunity, if not to remove the means test altogether, at least to relax it to some extent in so far as it applies to these pensioners. Its operation at the present time is inflicting a great injustice on a number of deserving people.

The Minister told us that the Government have in contemplation great schemes for the post-war period. I suggest to him that more attention ought to be given to National Health Insurance and to other aspects of our national health schemes. There you have the machinery, the organised society, and trade unions with ample funds all anxious to interest themselves to a far greater extent than they are being permitted to do in the national health of the country. The economy underlying our schemes of hospitalisation should be seriously reorganised. At present it is entirely antiquated and out-of-date. We ought to have a nationalised hospital system. It is the kind of scheme that should come into our post-war planning. As I may not be here at a later date to press a scheme of that sort on the attention of the Minister, I am availing of this opportunity to do so.

Senator Hayes made great play—I think he was rather in favour of them, though—with the powers which are being given to the Revenue Commissioners to catch those people who are making enormous profits, and bring them within the net of the revenue authorities. I welcome that more than any other provision in the Bill for this reason: that, if those people know they are going to be caught in this drag net, they may respond more generously to the appeal of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to keep their staffs in employment while the emergency lasts. Undoubtedly, there is a tendency amongst industrialists to get rid of what they call superfluous people. If they have to pay over in supertax the amount they save in that way, I think they will decide to keep on their employees. The Minister's appeal has had a fair response, though there are some people getting away with it and making profits without giving employment. If this drag net is tight enough, it will ensure that many people who would be thrown out of employment will be kept on, as the employers would prefer to do that than to hand the money over to the Government in supertax.

Senator Hayes used a rather significant phrase in the course of his speech, when he said that, in the future, we may all be called upon to reduce our standard of living. We may have to face such a situation, but that will depend on our capacity to organise and develop our resources. In the Minister's statement to-day, we have the outline of Government policy. He has said that the Government is trying, by every means at its disposal, to control the tendency towards inflation. All who think about that difficulty—which will not pass with the passing of the emergency—must go a little deeper than the Minister went in his statement here or in the Dáil. We must study the causes which are creating this inflationary position. I have adverted to this here on a previous occasion and I am going back to it now.

It is easy for the Minister to sail off on the plea that he is not a farmer and does not understand very much about agriculture, but that he is awfully kind to the farmers. There are certain points about our agricultural position to which the Minister must give more attention. I put it that he was not on sound ground, in the case he made in the other House, though I do not wish to take him through all the figures he gave as to the various ways in which, as Minister for Finance, he is assisting agriculture. I wish to deal with just one or two points. I have in my hand a copy of the latest paper by Mr. Michael Murphy, Lecturer in Dairy Accountancy at University College, Cork, read some time in May before the Statistical Society. Some Senators will remember the very valuable work already done by Mr. Murphy in surveying certain districts with regard to output of farm produce, the way in which farmers are employed and the net cash results of their labour. Those papers by him are already available. Mr. Murphy has continued the survey and has made a comparison between the 1942-43 position and the 1938-39 position. One paragraph of the comparison is indicative of the general trend throughout the country; and it is here, in my view, to a greater extent than in any other field, that we must concentrate our efforts, if we are not to have a lowering of our standard of living and if we are to overcome the inflationary tendencies we see developing.

Mr. Murphy examined 55 farms. The number was larger on previous occasions but, for various reasons, he came down to 55 on this occasion. Those farms are on the North-Cork-Limerick border, comprising some of the best and most fertile land in the country. In the comparison, he says:

"The gross output declined in volume by 11 per cent. between the two years in question. This was the compound of a decrease of 19 per cent in the case of live stock and live stock products and an increase of 111 per cent. in the case of crops and turf. The comparable figures for the country as a whole, calculated from the Irish Trade Journal, December, 1943, were a decrease in the volume of gross output of 8 per cent., a decrease in the volume of the output of live stock and live-stock products of 16 per cent. and an increase in the volume of crops and turf of 26 per cent.”

Would Senators contemplate those figures, dealing with that splendid land in 1938-39 and 1942-43, showing a gross decline in the volume of products of 11 per cent., while over the country as a whole the same downward trend has been in evidence? We cannot safely set out on the spending plan which the Minister has enunciated on the basis of a volume of production which declines year after year.

I have stressed this on a previous occasion and do so again, because here surely is the real touchstone as to the success of Government policy. The Minister and his colleagues should examine this statement and should realise that, of all the countries from which information is available to-day— from this back westward—in no country has there been such a decline in agricultural production in the last four or five years as we have experienced here. There has been a phenomenal increase in England and in North America— including Canada and the United States. I do not know so much about South America, but we all know that there are colossal quantities of foodstuffs available there for export. The decline in our agricultural production is really staggering, when we take into account that with agricultural production to-day is lumped turf production.

How is it possible to avoid an inflationary position and keep down prices, when on the one hand we have such a decrease in the volume of goods available, and, on the other hand, we have a very considerable increase in the volume of money in circulation? I am not inclined here to join issue with the Minister on the lack of success of Government policy in keeping agricultural production up to the high level at which we would desire to see it, but it is important that this factor be taken into account as a basis on which we must build for the future. If during this war we cannot do better than let our production decline, we may manage to keep out of the war, but what we save from the wreckage will be very little indeed. During the war, we may learn many lessons that will be useful, but it is important to remember that the net result of our effort during the war period so far has meant that, in spite of the increased area put under the plough, the total amount of food produced has fallen year after year. That clearly indicates that Government policy in that respect has not been successful.

I concede that many factors go to produce the present situation. There is the declining fertility of our fields. That is evident. There is also lack of power, lack of machinery and lack of capital equipment of every kind. These should have been available for farmers. They ought to have been provided in the past. There are Senators present who will, at least, admit that for years before the war I pleaded with Ministers on behalf of producers, by pointing out that they were not equipped for their work. They are much less equipped to do so to-day. Mr. Murphy and other statisticians have pointed that out. If I may put it this way, I suggest that the Minister has a faulty point of view about what the Government is doing for agriculture. I think he used the phrase that agriculture was being spoon-fed. At least, he was reported in the Press to have made that statement. The Minister gave figures indicating that well over £8,000,000 was provided by the Exchequer for the benefit of agriculture. Agricultural subsidies are, perhaps, provided from the Price Stabilisation Fund. On the Second Stage of the Finance Bill in the Dáil he gave figures which showed that the amount provided for the assistance of agriculture from the Price Stabilisation Fund amounted to £1,095,000 and grants for the relief of rates to £1,870,000. In another part of his statement he gave the proportion which goes to farmers by way of subsidies amounting to about £1,000,000.

What actually is the object of the Price Stabilisation Fund? Was the Minister not referring mainly to what was done for dairying? I suggest that anything paid out of the fund is a subsidy to consumers of butter rather than to producers. The Minister may say that we cannot have it both ways, but when any Minister for Finance tells farmers a story about what was done for farmers they cannot accept it. The truth is that dairying costs to-day, even with the extra grants, are such that the producers are not getting enough to keep them in production. That is a fact. That is why butter is scarce and it is why the quantity of butter available this year will not be any greater than it was last year, although the price has been increased. I think that the Minister's point of view is faulty on agriculture. As to rates, as far as I recollect the amount given for the relief of rates is not as large as when the Government came into office.

It was not one year.

What was the origin of the relief of rates? As the Minister knows, landlords in the old days paid one portion and the tenants the other, and when the landlords were cleared out, the State took their place. Why should the State not pay a proportion of the rates? That is supposed to be a relief for farmers, but did not the State take over the responsibility of the landlords? Take the amount that was given by way of subsidy on milling and wheat production. The fact about wheat-growing is that there are farmers who will not continue in wheat production on their land, even with the price that it fetches to-day. There was a recent case of a farmer in Kildare who had to plough up 300 acres and sow another crop. The truth is that by giving these grants the Exchequer assists producers to get goods which they could not get unless that money were forthcoming. I remember Senator Sir John Keane 20 years ago suggesting that we ought to have some sort of costings organisation to indicate to the Exchequer and to farmers what costings represented in the productive effort. We have nothing like that now. We had some sort of organisation dealing with costings some years ago but it ceased to exist. When the Minister claims that assistance is being given to agriculture, we deny it. Farmers who have to milk cows say that the assistance given is given mainly to producers and despite that fact, the volume of our agricultural production has declined. That is the very grave situation we have to face.

I am not going to deal at length with the agricultural problem now. I realise that the Minister is under a certain handicap when dealing with it but the situation is not comforting. I feel that the Minister and his colleagues have not really faced up to the magnitude of the problem which has to be faced if agriculture is to be put on a proper basis. In his statement, the Minister referred to post-war organisation and plans. What are the post-war plans for agriculture? Farmers are concerned about these plans. They know what other nations are doing and what the world outlook is about agriculture but they do not know what the outlook is here. No lead is being given by the Government. We do not know what the post-war policy is to be. We are supposed to have a group of experts considering the position. I do not know when we are to get plans from them. Some of us do not feel comfortable about the outlook for the future mainly because we are going to have machinery that is run down and will not be as strong as it might be if some of us had been listened to in the past. I do not know that any words of mine weigh with the Minister, but apart from what any of his colleagues may desire to do, everything they may say will be mere idle words unless we can strengthen the whole structure of our agriculture. When the Minister for Local Government talks of planning a great system of new roads I recall what Senator Hayes said about our declining population, and suggest that we should develop our agriculture before we build roads, as we might be building roads that would have nothing to carry. That is the real situation which has to be met. I do not think that 3 per cent. of our farms are equipped. with 3 per cent. of what is necessary to make them efficient. That may be a very extraordinary statement but it is my opinion.

I have, on many occasions, referred to this problem of credit for farmers. In his speech, the Minister referred to the obvious prosperity of farmers, judged by their banking accounts. If that be the test, then the same must be true of industry. Perhaps Senator O'Donnell will tell us of the prosperity of industry. I know farmers who have sold everything they had and put the proceeds in the bank. I suppose that is a test of the prosperity of those people —farmers without farms. We are cashing the fertility of the soil and wearing out our machines and some of us are not wearing too well at the job ourselves. All the money that is earned in that way is put into the banks for Senator Sir John Keane and others to hold. When we come to the question of re-equipping those farms, we come to a problem which has not been tackled here so far. I do not know what the Minister's views are on the subject of credit for agriculture in the future. We shall have to revolutionise our ideas on that subject if there is to be any reconstruction of agriculture. The Agricultural Credit Corporation has been functioning since 1928. When I was a member of the first board, the rate of interest charged to the first borrower was 6 per cent. At their first meeting, the members of the board decided to go to the then Minister for Finance and tell him that they did not think that the financing of the corporation enabled them to do the job of work which had been given them to do. That was in 1928. The lending rate was then 6 per cent. We marched over to the Minister for Finance in a body. I do not know what enthusiasm the present Minister for Finance would display if the members of the board were to march in upon him, but we were not received with any enthusiasm and we were not encouraged to come back on that mission. The lending rate to-day is 4½ per cent.

And industrialists can get money at 2½ per cent.

The British can fight a war on less than 2 per cent., and, if there is one activity for which cheap money is required, it is agriculture. Senator Hayes and other Senators will talk about the cost of living. I suppose the Minister will have had the same sort of experience that Senator Hayes has had. How many of those people ever think of the influence of dear money on productive effort in agriculture? If we are to have a reorganised agricultural industry, we shall not be able to meet competition on money lent at 4 per cent. or even at 3 per cent. I should like to have from the Minister a definite indication that there is a changed point of view on the part of people who have it within their power to ensure that money, one of the commodities necessary for production in agriculture, will not demand any more for its services than the payment given for the use of other commodities. Production in agriculture has declined. Why? Because we have had to change our type of production. We have changed to a type of production for which a good deal of our land was not suited and for which we had not the kind of machine, in the form of organisation, mechanical and otherwise, suited for the job. In addition, our production has fallen from a cause which should never have been permitted. We permitted our young men and women to leave the country.

If you want production from the land, you will not get it with the aid of machines alone, or even with machines and fertility. You want the man-power to join these things together. During the war, we permitted thousands of the sturdiest men any country could possess to leave. Even if we had to pay them to do nothing else than kick their heels about, we should have kept them in the country. I refer to this matter because I see from a statement by the Minister for Industry and Commerce on his own Vote that there is some intention of taking the lid off the pot again. If that be done, it will be the end of all things. At the same time, I compliment the Minister on giving evidence of thought in his effort to enable farmers to draw upon labour for the coming harvest. While he may do that with one hand, I see, on the other hand, young men leaving the towns to which they have just cycled in from the country and going to jobs in another country. In the towns, they secured building or other jobs for a few months and then got permits to leave. Thousands of those fellows have gone. If that policy is again to be operative, let us not have members of the Government again deploring the decline in agricultural production or the existence of inflationary tendencies. What can they expect if they let the boys away who could produce goods at home—if they allow them to go across and pick up money in England which they can send back into the pool here, where there is a fair amount of currency in circulation, to purchase goods which are falling in quantity day after day?

Passing to another aspect of production, in the churches of the diocese to which I belong, we had read recently an appeal from the Taoiseach regarding turf production. It is a bit late for that now. If the appeal were to be effective, it should have been made a couple of months earlier. Senator Hawkins will bear me out in that. How many thousands of potential turf-cutters did the Minister and his colleagues allow to leave the country? How many thousands of them have got permits to leave? I have not got the figures but they should be available to the Minister. I cannot understand the mentality which deplores the shortage of fuel without having regard to the number of potential turf-cutters who were permitted to leave the country. We cannot have it both ways and Government policy in that respect is inexplicable. Practically the same position has obtained with regard to the production of coal. The problem of our coal resources has not been tackled at all. Let me come back to our turf policy. Our fuel supplies are short but, in my opinion, the whole fuel-production problem was mishandled. I should like to have the opinion of other Senators on this subject because some of them who, like myself, have been on bogs can express an intelligent opinion upon it.

When we saw, early in the emergency, the sort of position that we were to be confronted with, we should have asked ourselves: "What have we got to exploit?" and we should have kept all the necessary equipment to exploit these resources. So far as the bogs are concerned, you had not the machinery to do the job, but you had the human labour, and that was the most valuable thing. With that human labour, if you handled it properly, you could have astonished yourselves and the nation with what might have been done. Not alone did you permit that labour to go away, but you were not prepared to pay them enough to keep them at home. You did not even go the right way about establishing a system of payment that was fair to the producer and the consumer. You have, in your turf production and sales policy, been making orders to sell turf by weight. I have seen turf being burned in the city and I know that in the country districts we would hardly take that type of turf out of the bogs. That turf has been sold by weight, and some things not very charitable are being said about some of the people here who handle the turf—things are being said about how they manage to add to the weight. I have no experience of that aspect of the matter, and I am not going to speak on it. It is not yet too late to remedy the position. You have got some of the poorest material that could have been taken out of the bogs. You fixed the price by weight. There were days when you did the same thing with certain agricultural commodities, and then you thought of grading. If the Minister and his colleagues would give some thought to the possibility of grading turf in the country and arrange that only certain grades will be permitted to come on the long journey to the city, the situation could undoubtedly be improved.

References to the policy of the Turf Development Board are not relevant to a discussion on the Finance Bill. They might be in order on the Appropriation Bill.

I will refer, then, to that particular aspect when the Appropriation Bill is under discussion. I will conclude by saying that the Government policy in relation to the whole position of inflation and prices could have been better planned. In respect of turf, the Minister could have decided to take that commodity in from the bogs and have it graded. Then he would have the very best type of turf available for consumers, who would pay for it according to its grade, and you would not have it sold by weight, having possibly a moisture content of 70 per cent. In that way it would be more acceptable to the people and they would not have the attitude about the hogs that they have got, and that we will find it difficult to live down when the emergency is over.

I feel that the Government policy with regard to agriculture is not at all satisfactory. We may content ourselves that we are getting through the emergency in a satisfactory way. We are, and I do not think it will be questioned that the farmers' efforts, under very great difficulties, have carried the country through the emergency tolerably well. But the situation confronting the farmers, the Government, and indeed all the citizens of the country, arising out of what we have had to go through during the emergency, is likely to be so difficult that a fresh approach will have to be made by the Minister towards the organisation of agriculture. I trust I shall have an opportunity on the Appropriation Bill of addressing myself to other aspects of this matter.

It was inevitable that some Senators would indicate that we are here to-day singing our swan-song. There are some of us who may not reappear in the Seanad Chamber. I do not think any one of us here would ever claim that either Senator Hayes or Senator Foran is capable of emulating the great Pavlova in her rendering of the dying swan. I am not a great ornithologist, but I would suggest that the duet of Senator Foran and Senator Hayes would be more on the lines of the rook and the jackdaw.

As regards Part II of the Finance Bill, I might say, speaking on behalf of the industrialists of this country generally, and on behalf of the Federation of Irish Industries specifically, that in so far as evasion of the taxation laws has taken place legally by certain firms in this country, we are in entire sympathy with the Minister in his efforts to stop the repetition of such evasions. Industrialists are neither sheep nor goats; they are a very ordinary body of men having, I presume, the same virtues and all the vices of members of this Assembly. At any rate, they are no better and no worse, and I do not think that all the diatribes and suggestions and innuendoes that they have been living on the fat of the land, or that they are the robbers in the barn-yard, are entirely true. This atmosphere of moral rectitude is all very well, but people in my station of life, industrialists, manufacturers and producers of various types of goods, do not claim to be any better or any worse than other people. We certainly know from our experience that we are no worse.

I do think it is essential that when a prominent trade union official, such as Senator Foran, makes the statement that there has been a tendency amongst industrialists, as a result of the accumulation of large profits within the past few years, to put workers out of employment, for me, on behalf of industrialists, manufacturers and producers generally, to deny that as emphatically as I can, and I challenge the Senator to prove even one occasion where his statement could be borne out, where his allegation could be upheld. I am sure the Minister will agree that in so far as the Government have appealed to industrialists to retain their staffs, they have in a general sense retained them. I suggest that so far as it was possible to do it we have done it. I am surprised that a man like the Senator, when singing his swan-song, should sing notes so completely out of tune. I think these statements about people who are doing their best to build up an industrial atmosphere in this country have been exaggerated, amplified and enlarged out of all proportion, and where people vilify others by innuendo and unsustained statements, it is time to call a halt. If Senator Foran can prove to me that the statement he made—that, as a result of people getting away with large profits in the industrial sphere, they have tried to get rid of their workers—has a foundation, I will go down on my knees and kiss his ring. I presume if he loses his vocation here he will find another one—that explains my last sentence.

With regard to the Finance Bill, I am not quite like Senator Hayes. I am afraid I have been studying queer ways of finance too long to be amazed that a small country like this should have a £50,000,000 Budget. If anything is proved by that, it is the extraordinary elasticity of the present monetary system. I doubt if even my friend Senator Sir John Keane, with his more intimate knowledge of the workings of finance, can assure me that the cost of £50,000,000 is an exaggerated one because of that elasticity in the monetary system. My only trouble regarding it, as far as my limited conception can envisage it at all, is that this country, whose total production in the industrial sphere is about £66,000,000 net, and in the agricultural sphere about £76,000,000 net, in other words, having a total production in money value of £142,000,000, is paying its managers £50,000,000 for managing the enterprise. I know that that is not an entirely fair statement. I know, of course, that a certain proportion of that £50,000,000 goes to social services of one kind or another, and that another proportion goes to certain productive enterprises. It is not entirely a wasted investment, if I may put it that way; it is not entirely a consumed item. That £50,000,000, in various phases of it, does reproduce something.

In discussing a Finance Bill of this sort, as I have said on a former occasion, I assume that the Minister, for the time being, is my wife, and that I am discussing the cost of the house with him, and when I see that the cost of my house is £50,000,000, and that the producible goods which we have manufactured out of our garden is £142,000,000, and that he is the person who controls the way in which money can be issued to finance these producible goods, even as my wife, I find it very difficult to say that he is spending too much, because, so far as my knowledge of finance goes and my appreciation of the extraordinarily queer quality of it, as evidenced in latter-day financial manipulations, particularly as evidenced by Mr. Morganthau and others, and through the agency of war services, I cannot lay it down emphatically that £50,000,000 is a high cost to run this country. But I would say, as an ordinary business man who runs a business, that I think a business which costs me a third to run, a third which is mainly non-productive, is costing a bit too much.

The Minister for Finance, with greater political acumen than I have, will, at a later stage, naturally enough, come back on me when I raise my feeble voice on behalf of, say, culture, or art, and say that on the one hand I am claiming that it is costing too much to run the house and on the other hand that I am asking for something which is going to increase the cost again. I do not want to fall into that trap which, obviously, Senator Hayes fell into when on the one hand he began to deplore—I suppose as a politician—the fact that this country is costing £50,000,000 to run and then, like Oliver Puff on a famous occasion, spoke with a second voice and claimed higher bonuses and higher payments. I am not disputing the principle, but I am marvelling at the ability of a man who has such a schizophrenetic mind, who can on the one hand deplore the spending of £50,000,000 and, on the other hand, ask the Minister for more. I have had one taste of the Minister's method in that capacity, and I am not going to fall too easily for it to-day. He will forgive me if I say I have learned something about his ability during my short period here.

It has been said, and it has been repeated, that certain sections of the community have made very great profits during the past few years. Listening to Senators who are not aware of the ramifications of the laws in reference to industry one would think that all one had got to do was to put in a machine, employ a few girls at 5/- a week and to produce thousands of pounds as a result. I think that the majority of Senators who have spoken are not aware of the fact that, first of all, through the Ministry of Supplies, there is in force a number of Orders which very strictly control prices and that, also through the same Ministry, there is in operation a very severe control of profits. After enduring the lesser purgatory of price control and profit control, industrialists come to the greater purgatory of the Revenue Department who, after squeezing 7/6 out of you in the first instance, put you through the super-mangle and squeeze corporation profits tax out of you and, if there is still some life left in you, they squeeze excess corporation profits tax out of you. I can assure Senators who assume that great profits and huge moneys are being made by people in this country in trade that, generally speaking, it is not true. My friend, Senator Sweetman, who knows more of wealthy people than I do, may doubt my statement, but I would challenge him to fill this room with people who own their own businesses who are making great fortunes. When I say great fortunes I presume something from £5,000 to £7,000 is meant. I do not believe he could fill even the seats in this room with the number of such people. All this talk of wealth and profits is greatly exaggerated. If some of the Senators who believe in this talk were to start in business for themselves, by the time the Minister for Industry and Commerce had dealt with them by his policy of prices and profits control and the Minister for Finance had put them through the super-mangle in the Revenue Department, they would not speak in the strain in which they spoke to-day.

I agree with Senator Baxter in his general attitude towards money— the Chair will forgive my mentioning this, because it does arise out of the cost of running the country—and I repeat what he has said in a different way. Just as it is essential for agriculture to have cheap money it is essential for us industrialists to have it. I know, of course, that under the present peculiar money system we have adopted and nurtured here and which we have not yet discovered to be as pliable as some people believe it to be, it will be very difficult to get the Minister for Finance to change his attitude as to what money should cost. I know that in so far as he is personally concerned he would be only too glad to see it costing less because I know the general attitude of the Government is to see that as far as possible production should be helped and that no hindrance should be put in its way by any financial control of any sort. In fairness to the Minister, I think he has repeatedly said in the other House that financial strangleholds of any sort have not been put upon him in any direction and that he will not allow it, but whether he says that or not, I think there is a certain grain of truth in Senator Baxter's statement that, in so far as the cost of money is concerned, there has been a stranglehold operating.

Senator Baxter asked a pertinent question, why so many young men are leaving the country. I would say that young men are leaving the country simply because they were not getting a living wage on the land. I do not think young men left this country for love of leaving this country. I think young men left this country because they were not getting an economic living in this country. Who is to blame for that, I am not going to say. The farmer is controlled by the prices he can get for his goods in the open market, and I am not going to pillory the farmer for not paying more than he was able to pay. It is a pity that such a thing happened, and it is a problem which should be solved, but I think that if Senator Baxter would also ask himself the question, he would find that it was not because the Government wanted them to leave this country or because they themselves wanted to leave this country; it was just because they could not get a living in this country.

I should like to refer particularly to Part 2 of the Finance Bill. I suppose the Minister is aware that that is the section which interests me most in a sense and, because I know the majority of the members here are also interested in corporation profits tax and excess corporation profits tax, I would ask them to bear with me for a minute. I would like to reiterate, on behalf of the Federation of Irish Industrialists more particularly—the Minister will understand the reason why—our complete lack of sympathy with any firm in this country who tried to evade payment of excess corporation profits tax or corporation profits tax, or in any way tried to evade taxation these past few years. It is quite obvious that an attempt has been made and successfully made to carry out evasion. I do not think that there was any other reason whatsoever for the Minister introducing this provision except that such evasion had been attempted and accomplished. I should like to assure him on behalf of the majority of industrialists in this country that we have no sympathy whatever with any firm which carried out such evasion, even though they were legally allowed to do so. That is one of the points I want to stress, that while they may have done something morally wrong—and I have no doubt they did something morally wrong— they did not do anything legally wrong. They were just, as the Minister will probably agree, good businessmen. I put "good" in that sense in inverted commas, because it is not the sort of thing I would do myself, or that the majority of decent industrialists in this country would do. But we have no hostility towards this new provision. At the same time, we feel that there are some minor points which will cause undue hardship and which will prove to be unfair in the working. I do not want to bring this matter up in the form of a recommendation, but I should like to make an appeal to the Minister who, although a Minister for Finance, is, I know, a very human being. For example, a case may happen, under Section 2, of a firm of, say, two or three men who, ten years ago, started business and found they were under-capitalised and had to go to the bank for an overdraft to carry on the business.

I think the Senator is referring to the wrong section. He is referring to Section 2, which is merely giving relief in respect of wear and tear of machinery. I only raise the matter so that he may let us know what section he really means.

I am not referring to any section at all. I am referring to cases in connection with which there has been an omission to make any provision for a particular type of thing happening.

I am not trying to interrupt the Senator. I only want everybody to be able to follow his remarks.

If the Senator will allow me to continue, I think he will get the point. I was pointing out that this firm started, say, ten years ago and had to go to the bank to get an overdraft to carry on the business. During those years, they never voted or paid themselves directors' fees. Strange to say, that could not possibly happen in any other avocation outside industry, but it does happen and has happened in industry. It has happened that men, starting business in a small way, have ploughed back into the business the profits. They may have other means of living; they may have other sources of income. But, in so far as that particular business was concerned, they did not draw out any directors' fees or pass any amount for directors' fees. Now they arrive at a stage when, under the Bill, they are limited to 3 per cent. of their capital. I know that the Minister will come back on me and say that they have got a minimum of £2,500. But I am taking the case of a company of £5,000 for the purpose of illustration. It has a minimum of £2,500 and now can get £150 more. But for ten years they have not drawn out any directors' fees because the money was not there and they were only in a position to pay back the bank. Now, when they say: "We will take our directors' fees", under this Bill you are treating these men unfairly. I say that it is an act of omission rather than anything else, and, if such a case comes before the Minister, I hope he will give it his attention and consideration and see that justice is done. That is one instance where an act of omission is causing injustice. Probably the Minister will have a reply to that. He is very able, much more able than I am, because I am only an amateur in discussing this matter of corporation profits tax.

Another matter which was raised in the Dáil by Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Costello was this matter of fixing the date, December 31st, 1943, as the final date for the accounting period. The case has been put before the Dáil very well already by these two Deputies but, just because some Senators may get a shock when they hear what is going to happen, I will tell them what this will mean, so far as I understand it. It means that, if any firm were unfortunate enough to own a business whose accounting period ended on the 1st January, 1944, they would have to pay corporation profits tax and excess corporation profits tax at a new rate laid down by the Minister in this Bill. But, if they were fortunate enough to have a business whose accounting period ends on the 31st December, 1943, they would pay on the old and lesser basis. Our point about that is that it will cause tremendous hardship and is unfair. The argument which I put forward is the argument which has been put forward by Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Costello and other Deputies and that is, that the Minister would not be creating a new principle in accepting our plea for apportionment. He has accepted it in regard to previous Bills. A firm may have had 11 months' trading, because most traders finish their trading year on January 31st, and be tax liable for the previous 12 months on the new basis of computation, and yet as I have said if it was fortunate enough to complete its year the previous December 31st it would receive far more favourable terms from the revenue authorities. A majority of small firms will be caught under this Bill. Even though they have already made their arrangements and probably paid their directors' fees and dividends, they have now to go back on that, because the Minister has not been prepared, apparently, up to now to discuss this question of apportionment. I suggest to the Minister that that is a very severe hardship. People like myself and industrialists, manufacturers and traders generally all agree with the spirit behind the Bill, but they feel rather upset by the fact that over a small matter of this sort—it is a relatively small matter—the Minister cannot meet them. I think it is not an impossible thing to do.

The Minister said in the Dáil it would take a whole series of amendments to deal with this question of apportionment. I suggest to the Minister that it is merely a matter for the auditors of any company to make out the apportionment, and surely the Revenue Commissioners, with their expert and up-to-date and courteous staff—I wish to pay them that tribute—will be able to check up on the auditors who prepared such an apportionment and approve of it. I do not see anything impossible in it. I appeal to the Minister to give kindly consideration to the suggestion which has been made to him in good faith, because I know that he is a man who will not willingly cause an injustice. In this case I think he is causing an injustice, and I hope that, before the Bill goes back to the Dáil, he will discover some method to see that this matter of apportionment is properly dealt with.

The 31st January seems an extraordinary date for accounts to finish. I do not think it will affect many firms.

I do not know whether the Senator understands the point. If your accounting period finishes on 31st December, 1943, your corporation profits tax and excess corporation profits tax are based on the old rate. But, if your accounting period, by any chance, happens to finish on any date subsequent to that, between then and the passing of this Bill, you are subject to all sorts of new additions imposed by this Bill. I am, of course, by no means a financial expert or an income-tax expert, but I realise that it can cause a very grave hardship on companies who have already made arrangements for the distribution of their profits and the payment of directors' fees. Apart from that, the principle is unjust. I appeal to the Minister, therefore, to accept the principle of apportionment which he accepted in connection with previous Bills of this nature. I cannot see why, on this occasion, it should not be accepted or why it would need the series of amendments which the Minister suggested.

There is another point I should like to make. In the interpretation of remuneration, so far as directors are concerned, in the Bill, one of the matters mentioned as being included is commission. I am raising this point because of the peculiar position which arises in regard to a number of firms which I am aware of and which neither the Minister nor the Revenue Commissioners would probably have been aware of in the ordinary way. Quite a number of industrial firms, having a number of directors, usually have one of the directors as a selling agent. It very often happens that the man who is the selling agent is also a director of the firm. As a matter of fact, it happens more often in this country than in any other country in the world that I know of, for the simple reason that when this Government set out on its industrial policy, the starting of many industries was very largely due to the enterprise of the selling agents of companies abroad, and, naturally, when these firms or Irish-controlled firms of a similar nature started operations here, the selling agent, who had made it possible for them to be established here, became a director of the firm concerned, while still retaining his position as a selling agent. In many cases, these men continued to get their commission as selling agents, and also their fees as a director of the company concerned. It would appear now—and I presume that the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—that in the case of any man, such as I have described, who started a firm in this country in 1938 and who held the joint positions of selling agent and director, there will be a differentiation made against him as between the money he is being paid as selling agent and the fees he gets as a director, because, presumably, there is no affinity between the two, and he will not be allowed a greater sum than that paid to him in the early years of the company's existence. It appears to me that the moneys he receives as a selling agent are described in the Bill as a "commission", whereas the moneys he receives as a director of a firm are described as "fees." Such cases, undoubtedly, exist, and again I feel that something unfair is happening there, because if the firm concerned had not appointed that particular individual as a selling agent and paid him his commission, they would have had to appoint somebody else. They were not doing anything irregular or wrong in appointing as a director the man who was responsible for having the firm established in this country. I feel quite sure that the Minister is not aware of the circumstances involved here, and, again, as I say, I am quite prepared to rely on his sense of justice in this matter.

Senator Hayes and other Senators have said that wages have not gone up. That is not true. Various wages boards and tribunals have been set up to examine into the whole question of wages, generally, and I am quite sure that my more liberal friends on the Labour Benches will agree that industrialists in this country, generally, have been very fair so far as this question of wages is concerned. I think that anybody who has examined the position will agree that the general attitude of industrialists in this country on the matter of wages has been very good. I think that we have—and I thank God for it—treated our workers as Christians and human beings, and have tried to do our best for them; but the extraordinary thing is that, while the Minister and his colleagues pass numerous emergency Orders to secure increased wages for the workers, when it comes to increasing the fees—or, in other words, the wages, of the directors of companies—they say: "Ha, ha! We will not increase those fees." They seem to think that because a man lives in a certain stratum of society or life he can still exist, in 1944, on the fees or emoluments that he received in 1939. In effect, the Minister, in this Bill, is saying that while we agree that certain classes of workers should be entitled to an increase in wages, he does not think that the directors of firms are entitled to any increase in their fees or emoluments. Now, it is a fact that the greater number of firms in this country are small firms. I should say that, probably, most of them are what one might describe as family concerns; and probably the man who runs that concern works as hard as any man working on, let us say, the docks, or in any other kind of labouring work, and I think that such a man is just as much entitled to a living wage as any of the people with whom Senator Foran is concerned.

May I ask the Minister whether that limitation applies to private companies only?

Well, I understood that the limitation of fees applies to all companies, but of course I am talking about family controlled companies. However, that was the only point I wanted to raise in this connection: that the cost of living has gone up just as much on directors of companies as on everybody else, and that if you try to restrict these directors of companies now to the fees that they were receiving before the war, it will only mean that you will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Again, in Section 14 (10), it says that the expression "pre-appointed day company" means a company incorporated before the 7th day of May, 1941. I was going to suggest that the Minister might accept the date that was fixed in a previous Bill, when this tax was originally introduced, which date, I think, was the 31st August, 1939, because many of these companies had not got any standard at all at that period. I realise, of course, the difficulty, when a Bill is actually drafted and worked out, of making changes of that kind, but I do not see any reason why the Minister should be, as he seems to be, immovable on this matter, and I suggest that, if he were to adopt my suggestion, it would make a great difference to many manufacturers in this country.

In that connection, I might point out that it would appear to be the view of the Revenue Department to take the maximum amount of money from those who get the maximum amount of money from others. That is a perfectly understandable point of view, but I do not know whether, in the long run, it is the wisest policy to be taking money away from people who would, probably, apply that money in productive enterprise. I should say that, if the greater proportion of the moneys you are going to take from these companies, through corporation profits tax or excess corporation profits tax, were to be left with manufacturers or industrialists in this country, who are prepared to use that money in increased productive enterprise, there would be a far greater yield to the State as a result of the increased production of goods than could be given by any Government in taking these taxes directly from the firms concerned and using them themselves for similar productive purposes.

My feeling is that, in imposing these taxes on the firms or companies concerned, you are taking too much away from the common pool that is available to the people who are capable of producing goods, and it must be remembered that the people in this country who, in the main, are taxpayers, are the people who are producing goods. You are now, however, going to hand over to the drones, roughly, £50,000,000 worth of those goods, expressed in money values. I think that if you were to follow the policy of France, and leave the greater proportion of that money amongst the people who are the real producers, you would be able to place our country on a sounder national foundation. I am only suggesting that because, under different circumstances, and on a different occasion, I think it should be possible to be critical of the whole financial basis upon which the government of this country is run.

Recognising the fact, however, that we are going through an emergency period and that in this emergency the Minister is asking those who are in a position to bear the heavy burdens inseparable from it to pay up and that he is also doing his best to get after those who are trying to evade the payment of taxes, I am entirely with the Minister but on another occasion I hope it will be possible for him to devise some system whereby he can leave to those who are producing in this country a larger proportion of the money and the wealth which they create so that it can be utilised in still further production. In that way I think we can refute the very unfair allegation that employers have been trying to limit employment by holding on to large profits.

Might I ask the Senator a question? The Senator advocates an increase in the fees allowed to directors. Is he aware that a number of these people are directors of several companies, and does he advocate that their fees should be increased in the case of all these companies?

I think I made myself perfectly clear when my friend Senator Foran was not listening. I have no sympathy nor has any other industrialist, whom I know, with people who try to evade the payment of either corporation profits tax or excess profits tax through the formation of subsidiary companies from which they draw directors' fees, even though they were legally entitled to do so.

I have very little to say on this Bill, and most of what I had intended to say has already been covered by Senator Baxter. There are a few suggestions which I have to make to the Minister, but they will be perhaps more relevant to the Appropriation Bill when it comes up for discussion. The amount of money for which the Minister is looking does not frighten me one bit, and I speak as a taxpayer. If we consider the value of £50,000,000 in comparison with the value of a similar amount four or five years ago, I think we will agree that the present Bill does not represent £50,000,000 as we understood it some time ago. Although it looks an enormous amount for a country like this, when we consider the billions of money which other countries are spending at the present time, I think it is not beyond the capacity of this country to meet that Bill. If the bulk of that £50,000,000 is spent in providing work, in the relief of unemployment and in the improvement of our social services, it will be well spent.

I want to refer principally to some statements made by the Minister when he was discussing this Bill in the Dáil. He spoke of the prosperity of farmers. I will admit that farmers are now better off than they were prior to 1939 but to describe their position as being in any way prosperous is not to state a fact. The Minister said that the farmers, of all classes, have got off lightly in the matter of taxation and that with the remission of half their annuities, the farmers should now have no cause to complain. I should like to point out to the Minister that the farmers pay income-tax on their income just the same as every other citizen in the State. With regard to the halving of the land annuities I should like to say—and I do not want to refer to the economic war—that the farmers in Eire lost more in one year of the economic war than the full capitalised value of the total of half the annuities which were remitted. I am prepared to prove that before any tribunal that can be set up. I am afraid the Minister's statement as to the prosperity of the farmers was influenced to some extent by statements which manufacturers have made time and again at their general meetings, and if the Minister takes notice of what I might term "dubhairt-bean-liom-go-ndubhairt-bean-lei" statements, he would be very unwise. At a meeting of one of these industrial companies, a director made a statement which got very wide publicity, that he heard from someone that some farmer made £10,000 profit last year and was assessed only on £300. I want to say that there could be no possible truth in that silly statement unless the farmer found a gold mine or a coal mine on his land.

For the benefit of my friend, Senator O'Donnell—I am sorry he is not here now—and some of his colleagues who are industrialists and who do not understand much about farmers' income-tax, I should like to point out that a farmer can choose to be assessed for income-tax either under Schedules A and B or under Schedule D. Most farmers choose not to be assessed under Schedule D because the preparation of farmers' accounts is a very complicated business, and if a farmer goes before the income-tax authorities, they will want to know how many eggs the farmer had for his own breakfast or how many were consumed in the household. They will also want to know how many pints of milk were consumed in the household and the total value and quantity of every other commodity produced on the land. Even if the farmer has a pony which he uses to drive his family to Mass on Sunday, he will have to add the value of the feeding of that pony to his profits.

The majority of farmers, therefore, choose to be assessed under Schedules A and B, because they are not very proficient in making up these accounts, and it is so difficult to convince the income-tax authorities, although I have nothing to say against the income-tax authorities. I do not think that many farmers have anything to say against them, because if you play straight with them I think they are one of the straightest Departments in the whole State. For the benefit of industrialists I want to point out that we have to pay income-tax under Schedules A and B. Under Schedule A, the tax is based on the poor law valuation of the land, less some statutory deductions, and, under Schedule B, on the old annuity, less statutory deductions. These two added together represent the farmer's income for the purpose of income-tax. He is charged and pays on that, but to be assessed on a sum of only £300, a farmer would require to have only 120 Irish acres of land, so that it was silly and ridiculous to say, as was said at a meeting of industrialists and manufacturers, that a farmer with 120 acres of land and a house could make £10,000 profit while getting off with an assessment of £300. I do not think that requires any further comment by me.

The Minister spoke of the increased deposits in the banks and the decreased requests for accommodation by the banks since the start of this war. He put the position in this respect forward as another sign of the prosperity of the farming community, but I should like to tell the Minister that there is possibly another explanation. I am sure that Senators who read the papers will agree with me when I say that, within living memory, at all events, more land was never sold on the market than has been sold since the start of this war. Anybody looking at the papers every year for the past five years will have seen advertisements of farms all over the country, and that, I feel, is the cause of the increase in the deposits. The people who bought this land—industrialists and that class of persons—were people with plenty of money who wanted no accommodation from the banks, which brought about the position with regard to the decreased demand for money.

I look on the sale of all these farms as very serious, and I ask the Minister to consider why all these farms were put on the market and sold if farming is such a prosperous industry as he claims, and as industrialists claim, it has been in the past five years. It is a very serious state of affairs that these farmers, whose homes and lands were the property of their families for generations, should have sold out to people who have no farming instincts and who know very little about farming. The clearing out of such farmers will not promote the prosperity of the country, and I suggest it is a matter into which the Minister and the Government should look very carefully with a view to ascertaining the reason for it. In my opinion, much of the explanation can be provided in one word—banks. To my own knowledge banks have persuaded farmers who owed them money to sell out their land, on the plea that prices were good and they would have an opportunity of clearing off their debts and having something for themselves. It is, as I say, a matter which the Government should look into.

We cannot blame the banks to any great extent for this action because they feel that, if the Land Commission take these lands, there will be very little for them to get from either the farmer or the Land Commission. It was my intention to introduce a Land Bill here which would rectify the position, were it not for the general election taking place. That Bill was prepared at my request by Senator Sweetman and Senator Monahan, but, as the Seanad is now about to be dissolved, I decided there was no use in introducing it. I appeal to the Minister, however, to give that Bill, which is a very moderate Bill—if I am not here to move it, it will be moved by Senator Sweetman or some other Senators—his favourable consideration and to use his influence with the Government to get it accepted. This Bill is one designed to give back security of tenure to the farmers and it is one without which we shall not have contentment or prosperity amongst the farming community.

Senator Counihan asked why certain people with large holdings of land have recently disposed of them, and he gave the disposing of these lands as one of the reasons for the decrease in the demands by the farming community for money from the banks. What is the true reason for these people disposing of their land? The reason is—and if you ask them, they will tell you—that they were not farmers in the proper sense of the word. I think we should have some segregation of the people on the land, so that one type of people would be classified as land owners, as they really are, and another type, the people who will till the land and make proper use of it, as farmers.

If you examine the position, you will find that it is these land owners, these people who, by reason of the system adopted in the past, were not in a position to comply with the regulations in respect of supplying the country with food, who disposed of their land. There were large landowners who had not got a horse, a plough or any implement. Senator Baxter to-day said the Government should have made machinery available for these people. These are the people who knew absolutely nothing about farming and whose farm work consisted of the raising of live stock.

Senator Counihan also gave us the information that, but for the unfortunate incident of a general election, it was his intention to introduce a Land Bill, and, without seeing any of its sections, I think I could safely say that its purpose is to curtail the activities of the Land Commission in acquiring large holdings of land for division amongst our people. Senator Baxter and other Senators on that side plead with us to stop the flight from the land, and I put it to the House, to the Minister and to the Government that there is no other solution of our problem with regard to the flight from the land than the division of land and the placing on it of people who are capable and willing to work it. That, to my mind, is the only solution. I do not know what the composition of the next Seanad will be, but if Senator Counihan does introduce this Bill which he has mentioned, I hope it will meet with the reception with which it would meet if it were introduced at the present time. As I see it, our salvation in this country is to divide up the land, and I believe that, if obstacles had not been placed in the way of intensification of land division, we would be in a much more secure position to-day. We would have more food for our people and more people on the land.

Senator Baxter wanted to know what is our post-war agricultural policy. I think I could gather from his statements that his solution would be a return to the conditions which existed before Fianna Fáil came into office— that we should once more become a land producing only live stock for export. I say again that the salvation of the country lies in an intensification of the policy adopted for the last few years. The Senator also went into the question of fuel supply, and I think the Chairman suggested that that matter should be left over until we come to the Appropriation Bill.

On various occasions during discussions on the Finance Bill here we had protests against the sum asked for. At one time it was £45,000,000 or £46,000,000, and now it has almost reached £50,000,000; but we had very little protest to-day, except of course that some people wanted more. I am glad to see that there is in this huge sum a contribution towards our social services, much of which will go to help the needy. I have one suggestion to make to the Minister and the Government, and it is that, where an extra allowance of 2/6 is to be paid to old age pensioners, widows, people in receipt of national health insurance, and so on, throughout the rural areas, that allowance should be passed on as early as possible. No apathy on the part of local councils should hold up the passing on of this benefit. I know cases where delays have occurred, and I would ask the Government to take steps to prevent those delays in future.

I welcome the provision made for the supply of boots to the children of needy people. I hope this provision will be extended, because it would tend to increase our school attendance during the winter months when it is difficult for parents to provide boots for their children. Another point to which I should like to refer is that, while many people have been for a long time crying out for some such measure as the Government has recently introduced, a standstill Order in relation to prices, there is great danger that some of our people, and particularly some of our manufacturers, may not be as anxious to keep up production on account of their profits being curtailed, and I think the Government should pay attention to that matter, particularly in relation to essential commodities. As I said at the outset, I congratulate the Minister on having made the many provisions which he has made to help the needy over these difficult times.

Leas-Chathaoirleach

Perhaps I might interrupt the proceedings for one moment to say I understand it has been arranged that the Emergency Powers (Continuance) Bill will be taken at 7 o'clock, after the resumption.

A large portion of the Finance Bill is occupied with an attempt or attempts to prevent the evasion of corporation profits tax. As the rate and varieties of taxation increased of course we had the usual stimulus to the ingenuity of the taxpayer to find legitimate means of avoiding payment, and the revenue or Finance dog felt that he had been cheated of his legitimate bite off the bone and went away growling disconsolately. Nobody can blame him for that. Nobody can blame a hungry dog for attempting to remedy the situation which has produced his hunger or for coming back in a bad temper. But I think that the revenue dog, when he came back in a perfectly legitimate bad temper in order to ensure his perfectly legitimate share of the joint, perhaps overlooked certain effects which his well-meant demands to secure his meal may produce. It is only for the purpose of calling attention, in a completely non-contentious way, to some of those possible effects that I am speaking on this Second Reading, because I do not wish to introduce amendments on the Committee Stage unless what I am going to say finds some little responsive echo in the heart of the Minister for Finance or in the even flintier hearts of the gentlemen who advise him. A number of the sections with which I am going to deal may, in certain respects, work out fairly, but in other respects their operation is going to be difficult.

The first section to which I will call attention is Section 13. That is introduced to cope with a familiar and easy method of tax evasion. By earlier legislation there was a limit put upon the amount of profits which could be made by a company without rendering it liable to excess corporation profits tax, but by the simple process of creating a large number of directors—your sons, your daughters, and possibly your domestic servants—you were able to reduce the amount shown as general profits, and at the same time divert the stream of wealth into channels from which it might trickle back to yourself. I think this section is commendably aimed at preventing too much of the profits of the company being directed to the directors, without being shown in the balance sheet as immediate profits. But there are two cases in which I think the Revenue Commissioners should have power to modify the effects of this section. First of all, as has been pointed out already by Senator O'Donnell, there are cases where companies were not flourishing at first and the directors, who were self-sacrificing, gave to themselves little or no fees, in order to put the company on its feet and to provide a reserve fund.

Now, in those cases the companies may now be flourishing, but by the very effect of their economic working a lower standard of profits may have been set, and they will not be able to get what are the reasonable rewards which they should get now, having sacrificed matters in a lean period. Secondly, there is a class of company, the success of which depends, almost entirely, upon the hard work, the initiative and the judgment of the directors. It corresponds much more to the old idea of the partnership and the directors are people who are, by their persons and personalities, earning all the money. It seems to me that, in that case also, the Revenue Commissioners should be empowered to recognise the fact that the directors deserve more payment because, it is not either the fixed or circulating capital that is making the profits, but it is, if I may use the phrase, the genius and initiative of the directors. In a case like that, I suggest that there should be a discretion given to the Revenue Commissioners to relax the provisions of this section.

I pass on to Section 14. I have had the privilege of approximately a 15 seconds' conversation with the Minister's advisers in which I indicated a point which seemed to be a difficult one under this section. I do not think that there was quite time enough to reassure me that the point was not as difficult as I thought. This section is aimed at quite a different type of evasion. This is aimed at a company which, if all its profits were to be taxed as belonging to one company, would find itself heavily taxed in regard to corporation profits tax and excess corporation profits tax, but, by the simple expedient of making a kind of commercial trinity: of dividing itself into three companies, with one direction, it was enabled to secure benefits of the underriding minimum of £2,500 profits provided by earlier legislation. This section is directed at preventing companies dividing themselves up into two or more persons, legal persons, that is, and so getting the benefit of a number of minimums which could not be touched, but which, when added together, would come to a very considerable amount. I think that is a short and untechnical description of the effect of the section. Now, in the effort to do that—a very difficult thing—and by a very complicated piece of drafting, I think that the draftsman and the Minister have put themselves in this position, that they will find it very difficult to operate the section. The object of the section was to provide that, if these subsidiary companies had been formed, what we may call the parent company was to be assessed for tax as if it and the subsidiary companies were all one. It was, of course, necessary to provide for cases where subsidiary companies were really owned by nominees of the parent company, but if we look at Section 14, paragraph (b) of sub-section (9), we find this over-riding statement:—

"(i) any shares of a company held by the nominees or the shareholders of another company shall be deemed to be held by that other company."

I may say that I have no objection to nominees, but I respectfully suggest to the Minister that he will find it easier to work the section if he deletes the words "or the shareholders", because I do suggest that this sub-section will prove almost unworkable, even with the proviso, to which I shall refer in a minute, whereby the Minister hopes to make it workable. Suppose you have shares in a small company held between three or four people, and that those people who between them hold 50 per cent. of the shares, with a controlling interest, also have shares in Guinness. Now, that is not a very unusual hypothesis. The effect of this sub-section, in a case such as that, when read in conjunction with paragraph (a), would be that Messrs. Guinness would be deemed to own the small company, and would be assessed in respect of the small company as if it were part of Guinness's because the people who had the controlling interest in the small company happened to be shareholders in Guinness's. If the people who had a controlling interest in the small company also happened to be shareholders in the Bank of Ireland, the Bank of Ireland could also be assessed under the earlier provisions of the section as owning the small company. Any company in Ireland, in which the people owning a controlling interest in a small company happened to have shares, would, by the effect of this section, be assessed by the Revenue Commissioners as if it owned the small company. How the Revenue Commissioners would select whether it was the Bank of Ireland, whether it was Messrs. Guinness or one of half a dozen other companies that I could mention was to be assessable, I do not know, but looking at it purely from the point of view of a draftsman and a lawyer, it does seem to me that, automatically, whenever you find a controlling interest in a small company in the hands of people who are shareholders in any other large company, the effect of this section is that the large company is the owner of a small company, the two businesses are regarded as if they were amalgamated, the profits are regarded as if they were one common pool, and the large company is treated as being liable for the tax payable by the small company.

Now, when I first had my attention called to this, the answer which occurred to me was one which necessitated going back to an earlier section. These various results to which I have referred depend upon sub-section (5) which provides that:—

"Where a post-appointed day company, is deemed by this section to be a subsidiary of a pre-appointed day company, then, unless the Revenue Commissioners otherwise direct, the following provisions shall, for the purpose of a charge to corporation profits tax, apply."

That could, undoubtedly, be utilised in the case which I have mentioned—the Revenue Commissioners could make a special direction that the otherwise automatic provisions of the section should not apply. But the case which I have envisaged is one which must be comparatively common, and if the section is left as it is, I think, it will mean that wherever you have a small, recently-formed company, the Revenue Commissioners will be put into the position of making elaborate investigations, and directing that half a dozen other companies, in which the owners of the small company happen to have shares, are not to be affected in this manner. I respectfully suggest to the Minister that if the words "or the shareholders" are deleted, or if an amendment is put in to the effect that the Revenue Commissioners shall direct that the provisions of sub-section (5) are to apply, the whole section will be a good deal simpler for the Minister to work, and will avoid the difficult position which I envisage arising automatically. I pass from that, and merely say that if I can be of the slightest assistance to anyone in connection with the matter I shall be happy to give it. But I do think that it will be very difficult to work the section as it is.

Section 15 is the "drag-net" and it enables the Revenue Commissioners, wherever they are of opinion that the main purpose for which any transaction or transactions was or were effected was the avoidance or reduction of liability to corporation profits tax, to direct that any adjustments which may seem to them good should be made in order to prevent that result. That provision is one which is taken substantially, though not quite word for word, from the British Finance Act, 1941, Section 35. There it was applied to excess profits tax: here it is applied to corporation profits tax; but, with that exception, it is taken from the British Act.

There are, of course, some objections to it in the British Act: there is always the objection to allowing a person to be convicted of what is practically fraudulent, on an opinion which need not necessarily be based on any evidence, but which may be the outcome of pure conjecture. Although there is, very properly, an appeal provided to the Special Commissioners— with, as I read it, appropriate further appeals to the courts—there is an objection to the Revenue Commissioners being able, on mere conjecture, to brand an operation as one to which this section applies and to throw the onus of discharging an imputation of fraud on the owners or managers of a company.

Leaving aside for a moment that general and, possibly, rather theoretical objection, I would like to point out that whereas it may have been necessary in England to make some provision like that, where they had no similar provision already in existence, it is unnecessary to do so in Ireland. In Ireland we had, and have at the present time, the provisions of the Finance Act of 1920, Section 55—an Act which has been repealed in England. These provisions existed before this section was drafted in Ireland, and are summarised at the side of that Section 55 as "Returns for the purpose of Part V and penalty for fictitious transactions". The section provides that a company shall not, for the purpose of avoiding the payment of corporation profits tax, enter into or carry out any fictitious or artificial transaction, and provides that, if any company acts in contravention of this provision, the company and, in the case of a foreign company, the agent, manager, factor, or other representative of the company, shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500.

There are other provisions in the section with the same end in view. I do not wish to read them at length to the House. I suggest that, when Section 15 of the present Bill was being drafted, it may have been overlooked that there were in existence in Ireland stringent provisions which had no equivalent in England, and that we adopted the English section, forgetting that we had kept alive a section which had been repealed in England. If it should be the view of the Minister for Finance that the present section is better than the earlier section in the Act of 1920, I suggest that the earlier Section 55 be repealed, in order to prevent overlapping or confusion by the existence of both sections.

These are the only matters to which, in complete humility, I would call the Minister's attention. No doubt, many of them have been observed and I am sure there are answers to them, but I am far from satisfied, with regard to Section 14, that the form of the draftsmanship will not cause a great deal of office trouble which could be avoided.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
Business suspended at 5.57 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.
Top
Share