Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Mar 1945

Vol. 29 No. 17

Seeds and Fertilisers Supply Bill, 1945—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health (Mr. Childers)

The purpose of this Bill is to continue in operation the Seeds and Fertilisers Supply Act, 1942, for the period from 1st August, 1944, to 31st July, 1947. We have had a Seeds and Fertilisers Supply Act ever since 1940. Facilities have been available since 1940 for small cultivators to obtain loans from the county councils in order to provide themselves with seeds and fertilisers. The Bill validates the schemes which have taken place since the last Act expired. The Bill is a permissive one. It gives to county councils the power to take advantage of the Act if they so desire. It is in no sense an agricultural credit Bill. It is really a minor social service to help necessitous cultivators, agricultural labourers and very small farmers to obtain credit by means of which they can produce food for themselves, and it is regarded as having great importance during the present crisis. We propose on this occasion to enable this measure to continue in operation for three years, in order to save the time of the Oireachtas in passing an Act each year. The Government believes that both during the emergency and in the period subsequent to the emergency, and possibly more or less permanently, we shall need a measure of this kind.

The House may like to hear a few figures in regard to the operation of the Act up to now. In the year 1939-40, 3,157 persons took part in the scheme. In 1940-41, we had the record number of 9,269. In 1941-42, we had 5,509; in 1942-43, 5,465; in 1943-44, 5,453. The actual cost, or shall I say, the turnover in loans, for 1943-44 was £55,169. The average amount borrowed is £10 per borrower, and the State has not yet been asked to pay to the county authorities the 50 per cent. which they are bound to pay in the case of irrecoverable loans. In actual fact, the amount of money which has been found to be irrecoverable is very small indeed. No application has been made to the Department of Local Government for the recovery of these sums.

In order to give the House an indication of the financing of the scheme, I might mention that, in regard to the year 1941-42, when there were 5,509 borrowers, the amount still outstanding in July, 1943, was £3,449. By the next year, July, 1944, the amount still outstanding in respect of the 1941-42 scheme was £1,267. These amounts are progressively reduced each year. Again, to indicate in general how well the scheme is administered, in 1942-43 there were 5,463 loans, and 4,755 were fully repaid. Payments on account were made by 305 persons, while 403 persons had made no payment whatever. Of these, 250 came from three counties, and steps have been taken to insist on proper collection. The interest charged, which is in aid of the ordinary administrative expenses of the county council, varies. In some cases it is 2½ per cent.; the average is about 5 per cent.

The only county authority which is not taking part in the scheme at present is County Kerry, where there was a very large number of defaulters and the county council decided not to take part in the scheme in the last year. We have done our best to popularise this measure. Recently we wrote to all the county authorities giving them indications as to how they could be as reasonable as possible in the application of the scheme. I have no explanation for the House as to why there has been a reduction from 9,000, in the peak year 1940-41, to 5,000, which seems to be the average number of loans made.

As I said before, this is not an agricultural credit measure of great importance. It has nothing to do with the general principle of agricultural credit. It is simply a very valuable minor social service. Evidently, every year there are 4,000 or 5,000 people, probably representing families totalling nearly 30,000, who are not able to obtain credit in the shops, who have not got the spare cash, who find it very useful to be given credit by the county authority, and who, in the vast majority of cases, repay the sums satisfactorily and properly. I would recommend this Bill to the Seanad. As I said, it is a useful minor measure. We have no idea how long the emergency will continue, but at least for the next three years we wish to give every encouragement to small cultivators and to provide them with every facility for producing essential food for themselves and their families.

Mr. Baxter

This measure meets with general approval, and the information which the Parliamentary Secretary has given us is very welcome. Perhaps, at a later stage, he would go a little further and give us, county by county, the exact result of the administration of the measure. It is interesting to discover, for instance, that Kerry has discontinued participation in the scheme. I should like to know what the total deficit is in the country as a whole. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to the drop in the number of applications from over 9,000 to approximately 5,000.

The probabilities are, of course, that a number of county councils have discovered that they had as applicants people who wanted to borrow, but did not mean to repay. What strikes me about the Bill on this occasion is that it is more necessary this year than probably ever it was. I would like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary if, in addition to giving the county councils power to give credit, this Bill enables any other action to be taken by his Department, or the Department of Agriculture, to ensure that if credit is given to county councils to enable small cultivators, as he styles them, to get credit in turn to purchase seeds, that the seeds will be available. I think it is true that in a great many areas throughout the country seeds of the right quality, both potato and grain, will be hard to obtain. In many districts, the quality of oats is low and the price is expensive. The same may be said of the potato crop.

I do not know how far the administration of the scheme has gone in the counties, or whether any action has been taken at all. In my own county, I think there was an advertisement in the local paper, but I do not know how far the scheme has progressed. I would like to emphasise that it is important that the people who are going to buy should have an early opportunity of doing it, so that they will not be rushing at the last minute, when everybody else, including people who have the money, is there too. The net result, in a case like that, is usually that the price of the seeds is considerably inflated, with results that are not satisfactory to the poorer sections of the community. I have no knowledge of any action being taken by the Government to ensure that in certain areas quantities of imported seeds will be made available, but my opinion is that it will be necessary in many of the poorer areas.

Potato and grain crops can be reconstituted only by the importation of fresh seeds from areas in which they can be procured, and where they are of vigorous and healthy stock. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that that aspect of the problem is even more important than the provision of credit. There is nothing so futile as to give people credit to spend on root and grain seeds that are not capable of producing a healthy crop. Time and money will be wasted unless that aspect of the matter receives attention. I am not going into a discussion on technical points with the Parliamentary Secretary, because it is not his forte. Nevertheless, it cannot be left out of the reckoning.

In my own county I know there are areas where the potato stocks and the grain stocks are not at all up to the standard necessary to give us the results we require. I have no knowledge of any action being taken to bring imported seeds to these areas, and I suggest that that is something which must be given attention. I presume that the same would apply to many districts in the west, but I may not be quite correct there. Perhaps their crops were better than ours, but unless they were very much better it is important not only to give the county councils authority to give the money, or to provide credit for the purchase of seeds, but to ensure that the seed they buy will be such as will yield good fruit. I press that very strongly on the Parliamentary Secretary. I know that many people, in addition to what he termed smallholders, will have to go into the market this year, and my view is that it is probably something that wants to be tackled on a scale we have not attempted for a number of years.

I think it is important to get a proper return prepared of the requirements of the district in many of the counties which will require imported seed. Rather than have an unbalanced situation in the market—very high prices in one area and low prices in another—it would be much better to have a levelling out by having proper distribution and by easing the difficulties of transport. Unless you have some sort of clearing-house in a centre, you will not get the return from this measure we would like to see and that is of the greatest importance from the point of view of the people to whom you are giving credit.

Mr. Hearne

I would like to welcome this Bill which extends for three years the powers county councils have already of giving loans to smallholders for the purpose of purchasing seeds, and I can speak with some experience of my own county. I can say that it has enabled a great deal of food to be produced by smallholders when the production of that food was vitally necessary to the country. There is a second reason for the Bill which appeals very strongly to me—that is, the repayment of the loans that my county council gave to smallholders. The manner in which they were repaid was most satisfactory and, indeed, I might say very, very satisfactory.

The repayments have been much more satisfactory under this heading than the repayment of loans of any other type I know. I am old enough to be getting more and more cynical, but it is a relief to find that despite the suggestion that our people may be very slow regarding the payment of their just debts, this is an indication, and a very reassuring indication, that our people are coming to realise that when they incur liabilities they should ensure, as far as they can, that these liabilities, will be met when the time comes. That is a very gratifying feature of it to me.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned, in giving figures for one year, that there was only £1,200 outstanding in respect of the loans that had been issued two years previously. I know that in my own county the amount outstanding under the Seeds and Fertilisers Act is infinitesimal, and it has enabled councils to provide, the means for smallholders to grow food that otherwise they might not be able to grow and they are in the same position as the wealthy man, because everybody knows that the vouchers they receive can be cashed just as readily as bank-notes. I do not think Senator Baxter meant to imply that they were in a less favourable position as regards purchasing. Certainly it is not so in my own county that they are in a less favourable position than the man who is able to pay cash down.

I think, however, that there might be a tightening up as to the purchase of seeds under this Bill and a better relationship between it and the services made available by the county committees of agriculture. I think a definite flaw at present—Senator Baxter adverted to it slightly—is that the quality of some of the seeds that these people purchase is not all that one would desire, and I think, even though it is public money that is used in purchasing, the people are entitled to get the very best seeds going.

Otherwise the money might largely be wasted. I admit freely the difficulty of devising the scheme, but if there could be some way whereby the offices of the agricultural committee could get the seeds and would be authorised to take these seeds or samples of these seeds and have them tested, a very definite improvement of the crops grown from these seeds would be effected.

Liam O Buachalla

Ar nós Seanadóirí eile, is maith liom an Bille seo fheiscint ag teacht ar ais chugainn. Is Bille é atá ionmholta in gach slí. Like Senator Baxter I should like some explanation as to the reason for the falling off in the number of applicants for loans under this scheme. I am not inclined to be over-worried about it because I do not think it is actually because the applicants find any difficulty in getting loans or because the county councils in general are inclined to drop the scheme. The explanation is, I think, that many smallholders are so much better off now than they were in the past that they are to an extent independent of the local authority and can provide these seeds out of their own resources. A point that interested me was that mentioned by the Parliamentary Secretary, when he said that the average rate of interest on these loans was 5 per cent. He mentioned that it went as low as 2½ per cent. It seems that a considerable amount of the loans must have gone very much over 5 per cent. if the average is 5 per cent. These are cases where if anything can be done to help the applicants in the matter of reducing costs, it should be done. Whoever may bear the burden it should not be imposed upon the type of people who happen to be applicants under the scheme. Senator Hearne referred to the quality of the seeds, and to the necessity for having some steps taken to see that they are adequately tested. This is a proper opportunity to express our appreciation of what is being done under the Vocational Education schemes in connection with this question. The House is aware from information given by the Minister for Agriculture on several occasions that the great amount of work done by vocational schools in regard to testing seeds is of tremendous importance. What is necessary is that we should let people know the extent to which facilities are already available for seed testing. The facilities are there for testing the seeds, and it only remains to bring to the notice of those concerned that such facilities are available. I take this opportunity to place on record our appreciation of the very valuable work that is being done in regard to seed testing under the vocational education system and of pleading that everybody interested should make known to a much greater extent the existence of such facilities. By doing so we would be serving not only the people concerned but the country as a whole.

Mr. McCabe

A question arose here in connection with the quality of the seeds supplied under this scheme. I think that those who participate have the same facilities as large farmers because my experience of seed testing is that the inspector or county agricultural committees will make sure that no seeds will be allowed out until they are satisfied that it will stand up to the test of purity. The county councils did remarkably well. They sponsored this scheme, believing that it was in the best interests of the country. I am sorry to say that some people to whom loans were advanced did not repay them, and did not give credit to the county councils of the Twenty-Six Counties for what they did. I was challenged here some years ago when I made that statement. I know of several cases where seeds and manures were supplied and loans given but the applicants did not take the trouble to till their little gardens. That did not help food production. The fault did not lie with the county councils. People got loans but they let the gardens go wild. That happened in 1939 and 1940. Some of these gardens were wild last year. I suggest that in giving seeds to people who apply for them there should be an inspection of plots and small farms, and if they did not till them they should be in the same category as farmers who fail to till a certain area of land. In the vicinity of many towns it is regrettable to see gardens growing all weeds. The seeds supplied under this scheme are just as good as seeds farmers get. The scheme is workable and a good one, and the people who could benefit by it should utilise it.

Professor Fearon

Arising out of Senator Hearne's remarks on the quality of the seeds, I should like to see a safeguard in regard to the quality of fertilisers. There is a great deal of fuss, and rightly so, about the nutrition of our people and of our live stock, but sometimes we forget about the nutrition of the soil. I feel that we should keep a closer watch on the quality of fertilisers, especially when the present emergency is past, as I suspect a good many fertilisers of somewhat different composition are going to come into this country. A minimum composition of the ingredients should be specified and unless fertilisers conform to that minimum they should not be accepted or circulated.

Furthermore, I do feel that there is a sort of superstitious faith in fertilisers on the part of many of our farmers. They think that if they merely get a bag of fertiliser and sprinkle it about, things will happen. Many farmers whom I have encountered do not seem to know how to use fertilisers properly. More exact instruction might be given on that point. In connection with this fertiliser question, importance is being attached in recent years to the smaller constituents such as barium and iodine. It is unnecessary to go into technical questions like that but we should endeavour to secure that the fertiliser we get is uniform in nature and we should see to the education of the people who use it. After all, we spring from the soil and we ought to respect what is supporting us.

Mr. P.J. O'Reilly

I should like to agree with Senator Hearne regarding the need for some inspection as to the quality of the seed. I should also like to thank Senator O Buachalla for the remarks he made regarding the work done by vocational education committees in connection with seed testing. I disagree with Senator McCabe that the seeds are in all cases good and that there is no need to bother about them. We had a remarkable case in Tipperary some time ago. Quite accidentally, we discovered that a great deal of the seed being supplied to allotment holders was perfectly useless. There was general complaint by the allotment holders. It was arranged that an instructor should inspect the seeds. He took it upon himself to call on the merchant who was in the habit of supplying the seeds. Strictly speaking, I do not think that he had any authority to do so. However, there were no ill-effects from his action. As a result of it, a better quality of seeds was supplied and allotment holders commenced to take a greater interest in the scheme, generally. If the services of vocational instructors are required, I suggest that the local authority concerned—the county council, in the case of a county area, and the corporation or urban council in the case of an urban area—should ask for the services of these officials from the vocational education committees. If that be done, the instructors will feel that they are entitled to go into the places where the seeds are to be distributed. I think that I can safely assure the House that the committees will co-operate to the fullest extent in giving the services of their officers.

Mr. McCabe

On a point of order, what I said was that the seed was tested——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is a point of explanation.

Mr. McCabe

I said that the seeds were inspected by an inspector of the Department. I did not say that they were all good. The inspector certifies them.

Mr. P.J. O'Reilly

That is not the case in some areas. I was proceeding to say that the number of officers at the disposal of the county committee of agriculture is very small. There is a tendency of late to increase the number. At best, there would be in a county the chief officer and two assistants. If a county is fairly large, it is difficult for a small number of officers to deal with the supply of seeds. Therefore, I suggest that the vocational education committees be asked by the local authorities to co-operate in this matter, as they have been asked to do in connection with similar activities. I should like to express my appreciation of the remarks of Senator O Buachalla and to assure the House that vocational education committees will do everything possible in the way of co-operation in this important matter.

Mr. Childers

The Seeds and Fertilisers Act is a permissive Act. The Department is not responsible for the local administration of the scheme save in so far as the Act defines the terms on which loans may be made. So far as the quality of the seeds is concerned, all but three county councils in the past year made it a condition that they would not pay the merchant for the seed unless it had been tested in a vocational school or by some other approved means. The counties which took no action were Clare, Cavan and Meath. There is no objection whatever to county councils making that regulation. Indeed, I suggest that Senator Baxter is right when he says that the county committees of agriculture should take up the matter. With regard to fertilisers, I have no information that county councils made special efforts to see that fertilisers were of good quality but, as I think the House knows, a number of the fertilisers are of a standard type under the control of the Minister. All I can say on that point is that county committees of agriculture should recommend that steps be taken to ensure that fertilisers given out under the scheme are of the best quality possible, having regard to the emergency.

Senator O Buachalla spoke of the interest rate and I made a mistake in my previous remarks. The general rate of interest—not the average rate—is 5 per cent. Therefore, he need have no fear that a rate above 5 per cent. is charged.

Mr. Baxter

Is not that very high?

Mr. Childers

Having regard to the expense of administration and the amount outstanding, I think it could be considered fairly reasonable, generally speaking. That is also a permissive matter. If a council chooses to charge a lower rate of interest, it can do so. There is no obligation upon it to charge a high rate. It rests with the county committee of agriculture to recommend to the county council what the figure should be. I have seen no complaints within the past 12 months with regard to the quality of fertilisers or seeds. Any complaints there have been, must have been local in character. They did not reach the Department. In November, 1943, the Department wrote to the secretaries of county councils drawing their attention to the desirability of ensuring that seeds be of good quality. I hope that the three defaulting county councils, who have not made the condition to which I referred, in connection with the purchase of seeds, will do so at the earliest opportunity.

The scheme proceeds continuously and the county councils arrange, through their secretaries, for publication of advertisements giving a full description of the scheme. That is a matter on which the county councils have to use their initiative. There is nothing in the Bill to compel the advertising of the scheme. We assume that county councils will interest themselves in the matter and that they will bring the scheme to the knowledge of everybody concerned. We take it that the utmost will be done to increase the number of persons taking advantage of the scheme.

Senator Baxter asked for figures with regard to the borrowers in each county. It would take me a long time to read them all. The figures vary very much. In 1942-43, I think that the highest number of borrowers was in Mayo, where the figure was 762. The number for the counties, generally, would be about 300 or 400. Some counties had very few. Sligo had 37, Tipperary North Riding 28, Kilkenny 22, and Carlow 21. There does not appear to be any great connection between counties where there are large or small numbers of borrowers. Some of the richer counties have quite a large number whereas, in the case of some of the poorer counties, very few are taking advantage of the scheme.

Mr. Baxter

What about the deficits in the repayments? That is what I was interested in.

Mr. Childers

In connection with the deficits, the last figure that I have is, I think, in respect of the year 1942-43, and the amount outstanding on the 31st July, in respect of that year, was £3,852.

Mr. Baxter

Out of a total of what?

Mr. Childers

Out of a total of £40,164. I think, Sir, that I have dealt with all the points raised by the various Senators in connection with this matter. As I have already said, the scheme is permissive, and I should imagine that most of the observations that have been made by Senators could well be taken advantage of by the county councils, since the scheme must be activated by these county councils, and it is up to them to see that the scheme is properly worked. So far as the availability of seeds is concerned, that is a matter for the Ministry of Agriculture, and is not concerned with this Bill at all.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the subsequent Stages of the Bill now.

Bill passed through Committee, without amendment, and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Baxter

Did I understand the Parliamentary Secretary aright when he says that this Bill is permissive: that it is giving the county councils machinery which enables them to provide a certain number of needy persons with credit in order to enable them to procure seeds, but that the question of whether these seeds are available or not is a matter for the Ministry of Agriculture, that once the credit is provided by the Parliamentary Secretary's Department, his responsibility ends there and that it is entirely a matter for the Ministry of Agriculture to provide the necessary seeds? Am I to take it that there is no connection, in regard to this matter, between the Ministry of Local Government and Public Health and the Ministry of Agriculture? If that is the position, I must say that I am not satisfied.

There are other people in the House who have experience of what the position in the rural parts of this country is this spring. Definitely, we are going to have difficulty in providing ample supplies of the right sort of seeds. I would have thought that, at any rate, the Parliamentary Secretary's Department would have had information from the Department of Agriculture as to what the position is. We may have a greatly increased demand for the utilisation of the provisions of this measure this year. I do not know, but I think it is quite possible that we may; because there are many parts of the country where the potato crop was a failure last year and where stocks are very low, although I understand that in other parts of the country yields were very high. I should like to know whether or not there is to be proper co-operation between the two Departments in this matter, and whether seeds will be available for purchase, because there is no use in providing money or credit for people to buy seeds, if the seeds are not available. For that reason, I think, it is essential that there should be co-operation between the two Departments.

There was one other point on which I think I was misunderstood. I said that had this measure been employed earlier in the year, it would have facilitated a number of poor people, because they could have gone into the open market and bought their requirements. For instance, I was in the market in Cavan on Monday, and there was a number of farmers looking for seed oats, but they were not to be had in the market. The seed oats were not there, although the farmers concerned had the money to buy them. Now, along with that, you are adding, perhaps, a considerable number of other people who, when they get their dockets, will go out and try to get what they want. Unfortunately, when these people go into the market, they are inclined to take whatever is there, no matter how bad it is. They put their hands into a sack of oats and look at it, but it is a question of "take it or leave it". The farmer must take that grain or leave his field unsown. Therefore, I say that this matter of co-ordination between the Parliamentary Secretary's Department and the Department of Agriculture is of the utmost importance in connection with this matter. It is absolutely necessary that there should be a co-ordinated effort between the two Departments so that the best can be got out of the land.

I may be wrong, but I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that his responsibility ends in this matter of providing the necessary credit, and that it is then for the Minister for Agriculture to see whether the seeds are there or not. I do not think that that is satisfactory. I think it would be better to have more co-ordination between the two Departments, and if you are providing credit, then there ought to be some guarantee from the Ministry of Agriculture that the seeds will be available and that they will be the right quality of seeds.

I have no information as to whether or not seed potatoes are available in the Athlone area or other areas from which they used to be brought. So far as my part of the country is concerned, they are not there, and I do not know if they will be available. Possibly, the Minister for Agriculture knows whether or not they will be available, but the country, as a whole, does not know it. This is a matter of considerable importance, and any farmer who has had experience of the difficulty connected with the sowing of good and bad seeds, such as myself or the Leas-Chathaoirleach, or people like that, would not dream of buying seeds unless they could get the very best and also be able to change the seed every year, because that is essential to good farming. I do not know if we have any machinery in this country by means of which we could get such information, and, accordingly, I join issue with the Parliamentary Secretary when he says, as I understood him to say, that the responsibility of his Department ends with the provision of credit, and that it is up to the Department of Agriculture to provide the seeds. I wish that the Parliamentary Secretary would take up that matter. I may be unduly alarmed about this thing. Perhaps people from County Galway or County Kerry could tell us what the position is, but I think that there will be no surplus of either grain or root crops in this country this year, and, therefore, this matter of the provision of seeds is very important, and I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will consider that this matter is worthy of consideration by his Department.

Mr. Corkery

The purpose of this Bill is to enable people, who have not ready cash, to procure seeds which they have not been able to procure last year or even during the last few years. I may say that seeds have been issued by the Cork County Council, and the Minister for Agriculture stated in the other House that there would be enough spring wheat. As regards oats, seed must be fairly hard to get now, but it can be got, and not so very far away from Senator Baxter's county, because I have noticed such seed oats fairly close to my own part of the country, and as near as West Cork.

Mr. Baxter

That is not a very good sign.

Mr. Corkery

It is a very good sign. I do not know if there is any need to be terribly alarmed. Anyway, I think we are as well off in this country as regards seeds and food as the people in any other country. While I agree that it would be advisable, if we could get a change of seed from outside——

Mr. Baxter

I did not suggest that.

Mr. Corkery

There is no possibility of getting it from outside during the emergency. I do not see where we could get a change unless we got it from areas close to Senator Baxter's county, and we have been doing that for a number of years. We got seeds from Donegal, but I do not know if we ever sent any up there. This is a very useful Bill, and the scheme which it operates has worked well in County Cork since it was initiated. The reason that the number of people availing of the loan is falling is, I believe, due to the fact that people are able to get enough of their own seed, or are in a position to purchase in the open market. Under this scheme anybody who wants to procure seeds or fertilisers does not go to the market to buy from the farmers. He buys from the merchants, and he gets the same seeds from the merchants as the man who has ready cash. Of course, if seeds were very scarce, human nature being what it is, the man with the money would probably get the preference, but I have never known of anybody to go short under this scheme, and I have no great fears that there is likely to be any shortage this year.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."