Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jan 1946

Vol. 31 No. 3

Housing (Amendment) Bill, 1945—Committee.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.

I move amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (1), paragraph (a), lines 6-7, in page 3, to delete the words "and if so required by the Minister shall,".

This amendment governs amendment No. 2. It is put down for the purpose of ensuring the independence of the local authority. It appears to me to be desirable that, if the Department are not to meet the entire cost of the grant, the local authority should have some discretion in regard to individual cases. I should be quite satisfied if the mandatory provision was merely that the Minister should direct a local authority to bring in a scheme to deal with these shelters. According to the wording of the section, however, the Minister may, on my reading, determine that a particular applicant may, and must, have a grant given to him for building a shelter at his particular house. That appears to me completely to cut across any independent function which a local authority may have. It is a very old and true saying that there should be no taxation without representation. In this case, the local authority is being taxed to the extent of the portion of the grant which it must give and it is left without discretion in the matter. If the Minister looks at the proposal in that way, he will, I think, agree that it is unnecessarily restrictive of the independence of the local authorities. In addition, it might not work out well in individual cases. The local authority might come to the conclusion that, in a particular area, it would be bad policy to have a shelter erected, having regard to the fact that other sufferers in the area were being treated in institutions. In that respect, the local authority should be left some discretion. As regards the question of payment, it was not competent for us to deal with the proposal in the Bill as to do so would involve an additional charge on the Exchequer but it seems to me that the line taken by Senator Baxter on the last occasion was absolutely correct. This question of tuberculosis is a national problem and it should be dealt with as such and not by individual local authorities. Since the State is to meet only two-thirds of the charge, it is essential that the independence of the local authorities should be upheld by the deletion of the words suggested in paragraph (a).

I support the amendment. I do not know whether or not the Minister has so convinced himself of the equity of this mode of procedure as to be impervious to reason or argument. The interests of individuals which are involved in this issue may be, to some of us who come up from the country, a matter of intimate and even personal concern on which we cannot remain silent. It may be that the Minister has one view regarding the functions and responsibilities of the local authorities and that we have another. I find it very difficult to understand why a proposition such as this is made to rational people down the country. The Minister proposes to direct the representatives on a local authority to provide certain funds for the reconstruction of residences within their domain. The Minister must take the view that local authorities are quite irresponsible, quite incompetent and that they have no appreciation of the interests of those with whom they have to deal, or of the position they occupy with regard to the administration of public funds, levied mainly by way of rates.

No other line of reasoning can justify the Minister asking for powers such as these. Let us look at what he is proposing. The section enables an addition to be made to any residence after a recommendation from the tuberculosis officer for the county. Presumably, what will happen will be that the medical officer of health, or his assistant, will make an application that So-and-So should have an additional room to his residence. When that report is made, it is a matter for the Minister to issue his edict.

This edict of the Minister will come down to the local authority, directing the provision of an additional room to a residence. That seems to me to be a provision enabling the Department to override the views of the local authority. When the Minister asks for this power, he is really trying to treat the local authority as if they were children. He treats them as children, without any sense of responsibility or without any understanding of their obligations. It is proposed that the local authority should be put into a position of having continually to carry out the Minister's orders, whatever they may be, and regardless of their own judgment in the matter.

Eventually, we shall reach the stage when local authorities will not know what commitments they must meet, when they are making up their estimates. In fact, they do not know that to-day. They do not know what further impositions the Minister may seek to impose upon them within the financial year. Last year they had experience of that, when the Minister was responsible for a considerable addition to expenditure for which no provision was made at the beginning of the financial year.

I am not arguing that we should not make this effort but I am arguing that this is the wrong way to go about getting the right thing done, and I speak on it because I know the attitude of a number of the local authorities. The Minister has the power and the impression seems to be that it does not matter what the local authority may think. I do not mind what Party is in power or what Government rules— what I object to is the general attitude towards local authorities. The local people, no matter what those in the Custom House may think, are not as stupid, and not as unconcerned, about the health of the people as we might be led to believe. It would seem that some people in the Department of Local Government and Public Health would think they are stupid.

I suggest to the Minister, very seriously, that he can get this thing done better by leading the people rather than driving them. The people will not be satisfied to have his objects carried out in the way he proposes. I suggest to the Minister that he will get a greater sense of responsibility among local representatives by treating the ratepayers, and their representatives, as grown-up men and women, with their own sense of responsibility about their obligations to the community regarding the health of the people within their administrative areas. I suggest that the Minister should accept the amendment of Senator Sweetman.

I would like to ask the Minister to explain how he thinks this proposal will work. It seems, from reading the Bill, that the county medical officer of health, or another doctor, may certify that, owing to the state of health of the patient and the nature of the house itself in which he lives, additional accommodation should be provided. If the Minister recommends it, the local body must carry it out, but by what process is the local authority to do it? What kind of officer may override the local authority? Presumably the expression "Minister" means some officer of the Minister, and I would like to know how it works where the Minister has to make an Order.

Under sub-section (5) of Section 3 the Minister may make regulations. I can see no objection to the Minister making regulations, when certain conditions are fulfilled, but I am not clear what the Minister may make regulations about. To me, it seems that the whole provision fails for vagueness. Nobody wants to support a local authority which takes up a futile attitude and refuses to put the provisions of the Act into operation. We agree that it should be put into operation, but surely the local authority would be willing to take the advice of its own medical officer. We expect, naturally, that it would have the good sense to do that, but we do not know what particular officer of the Minister should have power to make a decision. What principle should be applied if the local authority is not to have an overriding decision? If there are no principles there will, inevitably, be the charge that persons of different political complexions may get preference. Somebody will say that because he belonged to a particular Party somebody could get a room added to his house, while someone else of a different political complexion could not.

I agree completely.

It seems to me that after Senator Sweetman's agreement with the views of Senator Hayes there is little to be said.

What did it do?

I take it that it meant the amendment should be withdrawn. Surely it is not contemplated that the Minister, who has power to make regulations under the section, will make regulations dealing with every point Senator Hayes has raised? That was not the fashion of this Government, and it was not even the fashion of my predecessor. When we got general power to ensure that certain things should be done, provision was made for the making of regulations to cover points such as Senator Hayes has raised. Naturally, of course, the first provision of the regulations would be to require county councils in general, and the local authorities concerned, to put a scheme of this sort into operation, and under those regulations we feel that every person entitled to secure the benefit of this Act would naturally apply to the officer designated for the purpose, whether the officer of the local authority, the secretary, or the medical officer of health.

Or the local authority?

Or the local authority. The local authority will take all steps necessary to ensure that applications are considered by the medical officer of health for the county or by his assistant, and if he is satisfied that the conditions prescribed by the Act are fulfilled, his certificate would issue. Now we heard a lot about the reasonableness of local authorities. The certificate of the county medical officer would issue and be addressed, presumably, to the local authority who in this case, as this would be an executive function, would act through its manager, if the Minister was for any reason compelled to require it to act in a particular case, in such a case as might arise under sub-section (3).

But let me get back. We are discussing at the moment amendment No. 1, and that amendment proposes to leave to the local authority full discretion to disregard the certificate of its own competent medical officer in a matter of this sort. I do not think that any local authority should be left that discretion. I remember debates in this House, when public health issues were raised here, and there was no Senator's heart bled more freely or with more concern about the spread of tuberculosis throughout the country than Senator Baxter's. Senator Sweetman did not weep quite so copiously but I assume that the concern which was expressed on these occasions was genuinely felt.

Of course, it is genuinely felt now as in the past. The Minister is trying to misrepresent Senators.

If it were genuinely felt, what justification is there for leaving to any local authority, charged with particular duties under the Tuberculosis Prevention (Ireland) Act and the other duties with which I assume they will be charged under the present Public Health Bill, any discretion to ignore the certificate of their own medical officer, if there is a person suffering from tuberculosis whose cure would be expedited by the provision of this extra accommodation in his dwelling?

Who said they would ignore it?

What is the justification for bringing them into the Bill if the Minister is to be a complete dictator?

I did not interrupt Senator Sweetman or Senator Baxter when they were speaking. I am not pleading for mercy but it is quite clear that they do not want this matter discussed. I was asking what justification is there in these circumstances for allowing a body of laymen a discretion to refuse to carry out their plain duty to their own community, because remember that apart altogether from the fact that the health and the life of the particular person affected by the disease are involved, as well as that the health of all those who come in contact with him, whether they are immediate relatives or those who visit his house, may be involved also. What Senators are asking me to do is to agree, where steps can be taken which would enable a person to recover his health—or if not to recover his health that would at least prevent him from being a more dangerous source of infection to his neighbours—to allow the local authority solemnly to determine that the steps which the medical officer of health certifies may be taken and should be taken to enable him to recover and to prevent him from being a source of infection, will not be taken. That is what they are contending if the local authority so wishes.

One might as well say that the Public Health Acts should not be made mandatory, that no public health authority should be compelled by statute to carry out the responsibilities which are imposed on it by law, that the Oireachtas should pass measures here and that they should remain pious aspirations to be acted upon if members of the local authority, with the same sort of mentality which characterises Senator Baxter, should determine that they will, or, because they might impose a certain burden on the ratepayers, should determine that they will not.

That is really what is the issue here. I do not think for one moment that that is the general mentality which animates local authorities. I know that, so far from having to urge and spur local authorities on to incur expenditure in matters of this sort, we sometimes have to exercise on their behalf a form of prudence and ask them to look around, but all local authorities are not like that. There are some local authorities which are dominated by the mentality of Senator Sweetman and Senator Baxter. I do not think that in the present circumstances, with this problem of tuberculosis confronting us, that mentality should be given the right to operate irrespective of the public good, because that is how it does operate in the generality of cases. That is why I ask the Seanad to reject this amendment. If you do not reject it, and it is inserted, I shall advise the Dáil to reject it. I do not think, in view of the reception which the Bill got in the Dáil, that there will be any question as to what will be the fate of the amendment there. I do suggest that it is not consonant with the good judgment of this House, at any rate, that an amendment of this sort should be passed here, because if you accept it you are in fact saying: "We do not care what the competent medical authority in the neighbourhood thinks about any particular case"——

No one said anything of the sort.

——"We do not care what the competent medical authority thinks in any particular neighbourhood about any particular case; we say that the laymen on the county council may override that opinion and may deprive applicants of benefits to which they are entitled under this Bill".

I would ask the Minister to exercise a little care before he deliberately tries to mislead this House. The first thing I would ask him to do is to go back to his Department before the next stage of this Bill and to ascertain from that Department whether, in fact, I as a member of a county council asked the local county medical officer of health a couple of years ago whether he wanted more money to deal with a publicity campaign on tuberculosis. If the Minister finds, as he will find, that that is a fact it seems, to say the least of it, rather unjust that the Minister should come in here and suggest that this amendment is designed to deal with something that is entirely different from the purpose for which it is designed, to suggest that it is designed to restrain local authorities from spending money on tuberculosis and trying to make it appear that Senator Baxter and myself are anxious for the spread of tuberculosis amongst the people. The fact is that if the Minister wanted to do what he has just said, the section is very badly drafted. The section as drafted provides that the Minister can override a judgment in an individual case. What I want the Minister to do is to frame regulations and, if and when a case comes within these regulations, then the job will be done.

That appears to me the ordinary method of carrying on business—not that the Minister can walk in and make a certain action mandatory in a particular case and, having made it mandatory, waste the time of the local authority in having to consider the matter at all. If the Minister drew up his scheme properly it would be quite an easy matter to carry it out, and then there would be no difficulty at all arising between the Minister and the local authority.

I read this Bill pretty carefully, and I read it to mean that the intention of the Minister was to leave discretion to the local authorities, subject to certain cases where they might be over-ridden. I gathered from his speech that that is not his intention —that his intention is to make it mandatory. If that is so, then I think it should be made mandatory; that this section should read: "the local authority shall, in accordance with the regulations made under this Act", and that there should be no question about "may, unless over-ridden by the Minister". I quite genuinely believed that his intention was to leave it to their discretion, except in individual cases where the Minister thought there was injustice and that he should right it. I suggest to the Minister that this is a case where it would be very much better from every point of view to make it clear in the Bill that they shall do so in accordance with the regulations which will be made under the Act.

I merely want to repudiate the implications of the Minister's references to me—that the purpose is to ensure that certain local authorities who will not do their duty by the people who are ill in their county, and who want treatment such as will be made possible under this Bill when it becomes law, will not be dominated by a mentality like mine. That is the statement made by the Minister. Senator Sweetman has indicated to the Minister that he should inform himself somewhat better about the activities of people like Senator Sweetman in his county in relation to their efforts to improve the standard of public health. If he will busy himself equally in regard to my attitude in my county, he will find the very same thing. It would be very much more honest on the part of the Minister to get his facts right before imputing to members of the House motives entirely at variance with their attitude to this matter in the past. If he had got his facts correctly, it would be very much simpler to discuss a measure like this, in which we are just as interested as the Minister, and as to which we have experience, perhaps, of a rather different type from the Minister.

I realise, of course, that it is quite impossible to argue with a Minister who will make the kind of approach which he has made to this problem. In fact, one wonders whether it is worth one's while giving any attention to the matter at all. Does the Minister really want the co-operation of local authorities in his battle to improve the standard of health in this country, or does he think he is going to win that co-operation by imputing to people like Senator Sweetman and myself the kind of motives to which he has referred here to-day? Is he just childish, or merely foolish, or does he want to look upon us as children? It is not my purpose, and I am sure it was not Senator Sweetman's purpose either, in moving this amendment or in speaking to it, to indicate that our view is that there will be neglect of the health of the people by the local authorities. Not at all. As a matter of fact, as a member of a local authority, I would be much more enthusiastic in proceeding to take steps such as are suggested in this Bill without getting directions from the Minister or his Department at all. If the responsibility and the obligations are put on the local people, as a matter of conscience, and as a matter of public duty, I think their response will be much more enthusiastic than anything the Minister is going to get under this Bill. The Minister may have the most supreme contempt for Senator Sweetman and myself, and for other people here who come from the country, but we have views of our own on this matter, and so have the local people, including the Minister's own supporters. You can proceed along this line up to a certain point, but you will reach a point some fine day when local government in this country will crack into pieces. You are driving in that direction. Perhaps that is what the Minister wants. If that be the Minister's aim, I do not think there is any use in my asking him to stop.

May I suggest that the Minister is doing less than justice both to himself and to his opponents? It is the business of the Minister to make general rules, for universal application, and completely impartial. He has that power under the section. It is his business to do so, and I have no doubt he will do so, and, as far as I could understand, the emphasis laid by Senator Baxter and Senator Sweetman was on the necessity for such procedure. What the Minister does not seem to realise is that if in addition to that power he reserves to himself the power to examine individual cases, and to say: "Yes," to one and "No" to another, he must inevitably put himself in the invidious position that no matter how carefully he acts he is almost certain to be accused of political bias.

That is why I say that I think the Minister is not doing himself justice. The medical officer recommends a case. One of the considerations, no doubt, which will come for careful thought before the local authority is the wealth of the person concerned. If it were Mr. David Frame or somebody like that, they would probably say: "You can provide your own house". They would be in a position to know the exact circumstances. If they considered that for any particular reason it was not incumbent upon them, upon the general fund or upon the local fund, to provide that particular house, they might say: "This is not a case for us to interfere in". If the Minister, after having had the matter brought before him, were to reverse that decision, he certainly would be open to suspicion no matter on what bona fides he acted. That is why I say that I think the Minister has not done justice to himself in fighting so vigorously against this amendment, and he certainly has not done justice to his opponents, because, to my mind, he has misrepresented them. I think a certain amount of unnecessary heat has come into this. Framed as it is, it looks very like giving to the Minister power not to act by universals which is the function of the Minister, but to interfere in individual cases, which is nearly always objectionable and intolerable.

I think Senator Baxter has reason to be grateful to Senator Kingsmill Moore for his diversionary action on his behalf. I have listened to Senator Baxter trying to forget what he did say in his opening speech in support of this amendment. I do not know what the Senator's activities may be on his local body. I am sure they are just as praiseworthy as Senator Sweetman's are on his. I can only judge the Senator on his performance here, and on the statements which he makes here. When he rose to support Senator Sweetman he made it quite clear what he had in mind— that what he wished to do was to reserve to the local authority power to ignore or override the certificate of its own medical officer of health. He told us that for one reason or other the local authority in a particular area might be concerned to prevent the erection of those particular additions to existing houses. Does the Senator remember that? What has that got to do with public health except to make certain that all considerations of public health, and all considerations for the welfare of a person affected by tuberculosis and his immediate relatives and those who come in contact with that family, will take second place to some other consideration to which the local authority chooses to attach primary importance?

Then he went on to say that an edict will come down from the Department of Local Government to put this scheme into operation, and that then the assistant county medical officer of health, or some other person, would go around inspecting premises, would issue a certificate, and that the local authority would have to comply with the certificate; and for that reason he objected to that. I have said that the issue raised by this amendment was a simple one: as to whether the local authority was to have power to ignore all its responsibilities in regard to the prevention and cure of tuberculosis, and that if the amendment were to be carried, the net effect would be that you would be at the mercy of those local authorities which adopted the same attitude towards this problem as Senator Baxter did in his speech, in suggesting that some other considerations than that of the public health should be the governing factor in this matter, and I do not think I was unjust in saying that.

Unpleasant, but not unjust.

The Senator himself, after all, did say these things, and it was on these things that he based his case. There was not any question then about deciding according to the universals. Oh, no; the local authority was to decide in each particular case, and to determine in each particular case, irrespective of any Order or regulation made by the Minister. That is one of the particular grounds on which I am opposed to this amendment. Now, there are other aspects of this amendment. The sub-section requires that the local authority shall make to the owner or occupier of the house a grant towards the provision of an extra room in or attached to the house, and other paragraphs of the sub-section require that the grant shall not be made except certain conditions are fulfilled. These conditions have to be certified by some officer of the local authority. Now, a person may be aggrieved and very greatly injured by the refusal of a certificate of an engineer, notwithstanding the fact that the primary certificate, the certificate of the medical officer of health, has been issued, and notwithstanding the fact that the premises have been certified as being fit for having such an addition made to them. The third point is that the certificate may be withheld because, in the opinion of some person, the third condition has not been fulfilled.

Now, surely there must be an appeal to somebody in such a case, and surely the person who has the final appeal must have power to enforce his decision, but how can he enforce his decision unless he has statutory power to do so? Surely, he must have statutory power to make sure that his decision will be honoured. It is quite clear that this amendment and its implications have not been fully considered. Otherwise, as I have pointed out, it is quite plain that there would not be such an amount of resentment at the exposure of what, in fact, the amendment did imply.

Would the Minister please deal with the point made by Senator Douglas: that the amendment should read that the local authority "shall, in accordance with the regulations made under this Act"? Will he deal with that point?

I do not think there is any substance in that point. The statutory Order says that the local authority "may", and that is almost mandatory in these Acts. I understand that the element of option is very slight, but in order that there may be no mistake as to what is the duty of the local authority in this case, the words "and if so required by the Minister, shall" are inserted. I do not see what the force of Senator Douglas' point was. Of course, the Minister will act by regulation and in accordance with the regulations, and these regulations, of course, will be tabled in both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Is the Minister accepting that amendment?

No, I am not, because it is quite unnecessary. That is the trouble with the Senator. It is quite unnecessary. It is provided under the Housing Acts that all regulations must be tabled.

The Minister has a habit of weaving pleasantries around topics that are not pleasant at all. I asked him what he intended to do under the regulations, and what the machinery was, and he gave us some information which we had not got before that. It seems to me that the Minister may make regulations, but the Minister should have power under this Bill, when it becomes an Act, to make regulations to set out conditions under which a local authority must give a grant, and the Minister will then have power to say to them that they must make a grant, certain conditions having been fulfilled; but what he is doing here is quite a different thing. He objects to the local authority saying in a particular case: "We will not build an extra room for Patrick Murphy," and in another case he is saying in effect: "I will not make them build an extra room for Patrick Murphy, but I will compel them to build an extra room for Tom Ryan".

In other words, he is taking power to discriminate amongst individuals. This is a kind of thing which is a common form under this Government and many other governments in the world: "Look, we have not the regulations in front of us at the moment, and we will not have them until the Bill becomes an Act, and therefore we cannot say what they will be". The Minister professes not to know what the conditions will be.

When did I profess that?

Well, perhaps my knowledge of the English language is different from that of the Minister, but I understood the Minister definitely to suggest that he could not say exactly what they would be. The position seems to me to be quite plain. The Minister should have power to make regulations under Section 5. These regulations, he has told us now, under one of the principal Housing Acts, will be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. When he lays down these regulations, under which certain provisions for persons suffering from tuberculosis should be made, then the local authority will have to comply with these regulations, and the Minister should have power to make them comply with the regulations, but in that case the local body should have no option, and hence paragraph (a) of sub-section (1) should read that "the local authority shall, in accordance with the regulations, make to the owner or occupier of the house a grant," and so on, and in that case it would be over and above board, and individual cases would not be considered behind closed doors. That is where Senator Kingsmill Moore was absolutely right when he said that the Minister is doing less than justice to his opponents and less than justice to himself, because the Minister, quite gratuitously and wrongly, thinks that his opponents have a mentality that is opposed to the whole principle of this. I give the Minister credit for being himself very much interested in the crushing out of tuberculosis, and in that respect he would have to take power to crush it out, but the power of deciding individual cases should not be left to an unnamed officer in the Custom House, who may be subject to influences of one character or another.

That is an unpleasant implication.

The trouble about the unpleasantness is that it spreads.

Fine Gael form.

There is no necessity to get excited. The Minister told us that "may" means "shall"; that is the old argument. If "may" means "shall", put "shall" in. I do not see why the Minister does not do that. That would relieve everyone of the necessity of considering individual cases. It would leave the matter, too, to be determined by the county medical officer of health, or by another medical officer, and it would be outside the arena of political debate or any other type of debate. It would be better drafting and be better business, as well as being more effective help for people suffering from tuberculosis.

As a member of a local authority with a certain amount of knowledge as to how a county medical officer of health or a tuberculosis officer acts, I might state that there are two conditions precedent to the county council entering into this matter. The county medical officer must certify that a person is suffering from tuberculosis, and that the existing accommodation is inadequate. These two conditions must be fulfilled before anybody can interfere. I do not care what regulations may be made by the Minister, these two conditions cannot be overridden. With the insertion of these two conditions the county medical officer or the tuberculosis officer gives a certificate. I am a member of a local authority and I am aware of the faults and defects of some of these authorities, but there is nothing wrong in saying that if Parliament passes an Act imposing upon them a certain duty, the local authorities should not be in a position to flout the Act. Otherwise you would have 32 separate and independent republics.

The Bill does not say that.

I am not a lawyer, but having listened to the lawyers, perhaps it is as well that this story should go on the records of the House. When Peter the Great of Russia visited England, amongst the places to which he was brought was the Inns of Court. While there he listened for a long time to many people talking, and afterwards inquired who exactly these people were. The reply was: "Sire, these are lawyers." The emperor remarked: "They interpret the law. I have two of them at home, but when I get back I must have one of them executed."

The question is, which one?

If I were in his position I know what I would do with the two of them. As an ordinary member who gives a good deal of thought to local work in the county in which I reside, I cannot see any difficulty arising. I can certainly see no difficulty arising out of politics, by which Mr. X. would get a grant and Mr. Y. would not, because of his politics. The administration of the Tuberculosis Acts throughout the country as a whole belies any such suggestion. I submit that there are only two conditions taken into account. As the county medical officer must certify, the Minister does not come into it at all. The Minister cannot override the giving of a certificate on the grounds (1) that a person is suffering from tuberculosis and (2) that the accommodation is inadequate. If a local authority refused to give a grant that they were authorised to make, I think that there should be a right of appeal but that would be taken away if the amendment were accepted.

The proposal I made was that the conditions having been certified, the local authorities should have no option. What would happen is that the Minister would have an option.

It seems to me that the last part of the paragraph is vague. It states that the local authority may make a grant towards the provision of an extra room. What is to prevent a local authority making merely a nominal grant? The upper limit is fixed, so that the amount shall not exceed a certain sum, but it seems to me that if they do not want to help they could give a nominal amount which would not be any use. The amount given might be 5/-. Is there any protection against that position?

I think we may take it that the Minister may operate in that case.

Paragraph (c) deals with the position where a local authority refuses to make a grant.

On requisition.

That is where a local authority has refused.

We will leave that to see how reasonable the local authorities are.

Surely we are entitled to know the position.

That is a concession to the Senator's point of view.

The local authority may if they like make it a grant of 5/-.

A person is suffering, in the words of the section, "from pulmonary tuberculosis", for which he is undergoing treatment in his home, where the existing accommodation is inadequate. He comes along to the county medical officer of health and says: "I want a certificate under sub-section (1), paragraph (a) of Section 3." Does the Minister agree that the county medical officer of health, if satisfied, must give a certificate?

I think that he must.

Suppose the county medical officer of health thinks that the case is a very bad one and that treatment in the home is undesirable. If there is a vacancy in the sanatorium, may not the county medical officer of health feel that he should not encourage the patient to stay at home but should encourage him to go to a sanatorium? I do not think that he would have any power to do so.

I think that he would. One must assume that the county medical officer of health will act rationally and reasonably.

It is not a question of what he wants to do; it is a question of what he must do.

He would only give the certificate if he were satisfied that it would be beneficial.

He has no power to give a certificate for curative purposes; he can give it only for the purpose of segregation. I shall ask the Minister to consider an amendment on this matter later. This provision is necessary not merely for the purpose of segregation but for the curative treatment of the person concerned.

That would limit the operation of the Act.

I intend that it should apply to both matters.

I ask leave to withdraw the amendment with a view to having it reconsidered later.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 2 not moved.

I move amendment No. 3:—

To insert before sub-section (2) a new sub-section as follows:—

(2) In paragraphs (d), (e) and (f) of sub-section (1) of this section, the word "certified" means certified by the engineer of the local authority concerned as provided by paragraph (a) of such sub-section.

This amendment raises a small net point. I want to be clear as to whether it is an officer of the local authority or of the Minister's Department who will issue those certificates.

Normally, it would be the principal engineering officer of the local authority, where such officer had responsibility for housing work. If, however, the county engineer had no responsibility for housing, the assistant engineer might be appointed.

He will be a local officer, in any event.

Yes, but we shall not allow it to be mandatory on us to take a particular officer. Whatever contribution the local authority may make, the Exchequer is contributing two-thirds of the grant and we shall have to be satisfied as to the choice of certifying officer.

It will be an officer of the local authority who will give those certificates. In some cases, it may be the assistant engineer who will act. Is the matter to be left entirely in his hands or is it proposed that a second person should come in over the local engineer? I did not follow the Minister's explanation.

The Senator's amendment proposes that the word "certified" should mean "certified by the engineer of the local authority..." In fact, that would make it mandatory upon the Minister to accept the certificate of the officer of the local authority. I suggest that that would be inequitable, because the person who pays the largest share of the piper's fee should have the right to call the greater part of the tune. Normally, the engineering officer of the local authority who is responsible for housing will be the certifying officer but the Minister must have power to appoint the officer.

I do not see how that will work.

Would the Minister clarify my mind as regards the proposal for certifying the extra room? The extra room is to be "completed in a proper and workmanlike manner" but the provision of a room involves a design and the extra room in this case, if it is to be used for this purpose, will require to be carefully planned. I suppose a series of designs will be prepared and sent around. I should feel easier in my mind if the provisions of paragraph (e) were continued so as to apply to design, construction and site.

I shall bring in an amendment to that effect on Report Stage.

Suppose the engineer certifies that the cost is £50, will that be the last word on the subject of cost? If it is asserted that the cost would be, on the one hand, £60 or, on the other hand, £40, who will finally determine the sum to be paid?

Let us get back to the certificates and consider the matter to which they relate. I am not now dealing with the medical certificates. I am dealing merely with the certificates to be issued by the officer to whom the amendment relates. Paragraph (d) states that the local authority "shall not make the grant unless and until it is certified that the house is suitable for being provided with an extra room". The person who will do that, in the normal way, will be the housing officer of the local authority. All officers of local authorities are not equally satisfactory, and it might be necessary, for the protection of everybody concerned, to designate some other officer as the certifying officer. Normally, however, the officer designated would be the housing engineer. Paragraph (e) states, "subject to paragraph (f) of this sub-section, such local authority shall not pay the grant unless and until it is certified that the provision of the extra room has been completed in a proper and workmanlike manner". That is a matter to be dealt with by the local housing engineer. Paragraph (f) provides that the local authority may pay by instalments, but shall not pay any instalment "unless and until it is certified that the stage to which the instalment relates has been completed in a proper and workmanlike manner". The questions which have arisen are: who is to estimate what the cost of the room is to be, in the first instance, and what the amount of the grant is to be? I take it that we shall have a certain amount of prototype designs which the medical officer and housing engineer consider most suitable for adding to the particular types of building; that tenders will be received for construction of the room in that way; that a grant, up to the total cost of the room, will be provided by the local authority, and that the engineer will certify that the room has been completed at such cost, in accordance with the tender, or at a lower cost, if that be the case. If you ask me frankly how that is going to work out in every case, I cannot say, because there may be a case in which, for one reason or another, the original net estimate as to the cost of the building may be exceeded, but I assume that the normal feature of other contracts, the contingency provision, would govern it.

The Minister mentioned tenders. Surely, one of the things visualised in this Bill is that the owner of the house would do the work directly himself?

Is not the Minister quite deliberate in making this a grant? Has he not deliberately made it a grant?

It is a reconstruction grant.

Therefore, it only means that the owner will tell the county engineer or the medical officer of health that he proposes to erect an additional room at a cost of X pounds.

But the point is that the whole cost of it may be provided by a grant. I assume the grant will in no case exceed the cost. I am quite satisfied, however, with the Minister's explanation and I will withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 4 not moved.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.

I move amendment No. 6:—

After sub-section (4) to add new sub-section (5) as follows:—

(5) Where an extra room in or attached to a house is provided at the expense of the owner or occupier who would have qualified for a grant under the provisions of this section if such grant had been applied for, the house shall not, on any valuation or revision of the valuation thereof coming into force within seven years after the completion of such provision, be increased on account of any increase in the value of the hereditament or tenement arising from such provision.

The object of my amendment is to provide for something of an anomaly which would arise in connection with this Bill. My attention was drawn to it by people outside, and it seems to be worthy of consideration. Under the Bill, it is provided that where a grant is made there will be no increase in valuation for a period of seven years. It seems to me that some owners might prefer to pay the cost of erection themselves, and the amendment provides that if the owner is so prepared there should be no valuation increase for seven years when he has provided the money himself. It is highly undesirable that where a person is prepared to spend a sum of money the rate should be increased. It may not always be that that will happen but I am sure there will be many cases of it.

May I say that this amendment is rather curious. What the Senator wants to do is to prevent people paying rates. His amendment is intended to cover those cases in which a grant is not applied for. What he is asking the House to do is to compel people with plenty of money to erect a house without a grant, not to pay extra rates—extra rates which they might be willing to pay. One must assume that the person who is not willing to accept a grant is in a position to pay the extra rates. We should not try to prevent him.

That is an extraordinary use of language. The Senator suggests that a person who refuses to accept a grant would be annoyed if he could not pay rates.

I think this tendency must be confined to Senator Hearne's particular county. We have seen no examples in Dublin of people anxious to pay rates.

It is a new thing for the Senator's county.

If the Minister knows anyone who has asked permission to pay full rates after moving into new houses, I think they should be framed as curiosities for us all to see. Frankly, I do not believe that any such people exist, but I do know that there are people who refrain from making additions to their houses because of the fear of revaluation of the whole building and premises. For them, revaluation might be a serious matter. In this case, we want to encourage people to make additions to their houses, and it is reasonable to ask that they should be protected from revaluation.

This whole matter is of considerable importance to the public. Whether the cost of these extensions is borne by the local authority or by the Minister, it is obvious that it must be carried by the ratepayer or the taxpayer. The extra room will add a considerable proportion to the valuation of the house, but I see no provision in the Bill to cover the case of the owner-occupier who seeks to dispose of his house within a reasonable period after it has been built.

That is a different point, Senator.

Who is to get the additional value of the house on its resale? Many people have been encouraged to build houses because of the remission in rates. I think there is a lot in the contention that in the case of an added room for this purpose the rates may be waived. We are asked to add an increased value to certain houses at the expense of the ratepayer and the taxpayer. If the occupier lives in the house for 50 years it is not important, but what is important is that a number of these houses will come on the market for resale. Who, then, will get the increased value?

I am not without a great deal of sympathy for the purpose of Senator Douglas's amendment. Naturally, we are very anxious that where additional accommodation can be provided to enable sufferers from tuberculosis to be segregated at the expense of the occupier, that should be encouraged in every way possible. We should all like to see the additional accommodation provided by the owner or the occupier of the house rather than by the State. The trouble about the Senator's amendment is that it affronts my sense of order. It concerns premises not the subject of the provisions of the Housing Acts in relation to grants and therefore, would not be covered in any sense by this particular Bill. If this amendment were carried here, I could not undertake to recomment it to the Dáil. But, there is a Local Government Bill going through the Dáil now, and this House will have an opportunity of considering the terms of that measure in due course.

I will see whether I cannot put in an amendment to the Bill to cover the point which Senator Douglas has in mind in his amendment. Of course, I could not put it in the exact form the Senator has suggested. The medical officer of health would have to certify that the construction of this room was necessary, and certain conditions precedent would have to be fulfilled, but subject to that, I will see what I can do with it in another Bill.

I put the amendment down because it was a serious point. I am not going to fight it, but I want to say that I disagree with the Minister. I think it is made as clear as it could possibly be made. The extra room would have qualified for the grant under the provisions of the section if the owner had applied for the grant. I would ask the Minister to consider the matter between now and Report Stage. I do not stand for my wording, but I followed the wording of the Bill as closely as I possibly could. All I am suggesting is that where it is a house that fulfils the conditions laid down in the Bill, and where a person could prove that he would be entitled to the grant—he would have to get the same certificates as a person applying for the grant—he should be given this concession. There are quite a few people who would not go to the trouble of actually applying for the grant, but who would be very glad to get a reasonable concession. I am afraid that if I waited for the introduction of the next Bill and then sought to have certain provisions applied to tuberculosis cases by an amendment of my own, I would be ruled out of order. I might be told that the Bill had nothing to do with tuberculosis. I would ask the Minister to consider whether this is not a reasonable proposition which might be met.

Is the Senator's purpose to confine the advantages of the amendment to houses which have been built or reconstructed under the Housing Act?

To all houses which would be entitled to a grant under this Bill.

I might be able to meet the Senator on that ground.

My intention is to keep within the scope of the Bill. All I want to secure is that if a house came within the scope of this Bill, and the owner would have been entitled to a grant but did not take it, say, that he had spent upwards of £40 or £50, then he would not find that his whole house would be revalued. I think the Minister will agree with me that people are sometimes deterred from carrying out improvements because of the fact that it might lead to a revaluation of their premises. If it were certified that the addition was made for the purpose of the treatment of a tuberculosis case, then the valuation of the house should not be increased on any revaluation within seven years after the addition had been made.

In some cases this might not be necessary. Take the case of a house belonging to a farmer under £25 valuation. He could apply for a reconstruction grant. Supposing, while he wanted to have the additional room, he did not want to go through the form of having the room certified as being for a particular purpose, he could apply for a reconstruction grant and he would get seven years' remission of rates in any event automatically. It would be, to my mind, very much easier if I could make this applicable to houses built or reconstructed under the Housing Acts. That would cover a vast number of cases, but I should have to make it a condition that the purpose of the room would have to be certified.

There is no question about that. I entirely agree.

If that would meet the Senator's point of view I shall try to have an amendment covering the matter introduced on the next stage.

I shall put the amendment down again on the Report Stage to see what the Minister will do.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 7:—

Before sub-section (6) to insert a new sub-section as follows:—

(6) Every regulation made by the Minister under sub-section (5) of this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made, and if a resolution is passed by either such House within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat annulling such regulation, such regulation shall be annulled accordingly, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done under such regulation.

I understood from the Minister earlier that he was already bound to table a regulation and I shall not waste the time of the House until I hear the Minister on the matter.

I am bound under sub-section (2) of Section 14 of the original Act of 1932.

I have that in front of me.

All regulations made under the Housing Act are to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.

All regulations prescribing anything referred to in Part II. If the Minister looks at sub-section (1) of the section, he will find that it is only regulations which are made under Part II of the Act which are referred to. If he looks at Section 6 of the present Bill he will find that the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, 1932 to 1944 and this Bill may be cited together as the Housing (Financial and Miscellaneous Provisions) Acts, 1932 to 1945. I was not aware that the statement that they shall be cited together meant that the provisions regarding tabling which are contained in the Principal Act provided that the tabling was mandatory under this Act.

We regard them as being mandatory.

Has the draftsman given him that opinion?

We have not put that point to him, but I shall have the matter looked into.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That the section stand part of the Bill."

I want to make one point for the guidance of the Minister. As I understand it, this section is not intended to have retrospective effect, and I want to bring to the notice of the Minister two cases which seem to have arisen over a period of a year or two, in which people in rather poor circumstances have, in fact, provided an additional room for the purpose of segregation. I am wondering if it is possible for the Minister to say, if a proper case is submitted, that a grant will be made available in respect of rooms, if they are otherwise satisfactory, which are built before this Bill becomes law. One case in particular was brought to my notice of a person who had a rather limited income and who was in a position in which he could not continue his employment once he was certified to be suffering from tuberculosis. The doctor considered that he should not be sent to an institution and money was borrowed to build an additional room to the house in order that he might be segregated from his family.

The position is that the room is now built. I do not know whether it satis fies the conditions of the Bill but, assuming that it does, it seems to me that it is a case that might be considered in view of the fact that the person had to borrow the money and that the money must be repaid. I do not know how far the Minister or the local authority will be prepared to go in the matter but I submit that if a case can be made in respect of a room erected before the Bill becomes law, an effort should be made to meet it.

I should like to ask the Minister whether the erection of an extra room is mandatory on the occupants of a house? Are they bound to have it?

They may say "We are quite satisfied that we can deal adequately with the case otherwise" and they may feel that the provision of the extra room gives a certain stamp of disease to the house which they do not want. Are they bound to have a room?

They are not bound to have it?

The application in fact originates with the occupants of the house?

If they do not want the room they need not have it? The medical officer or the local authority cannot force the room upon them against their will.

On the section, I should like to ask the Minister a question. Is there any limitation on the materials to be used in the erection of the additional room? I have in mind a one-storey cottage with a thatched roof. It would be more desirable from the point of view of appearance that the extra room should be thatched. Would there be any objection to that?

I am afraid there would.

It might be regarded as more hygienic to have another type of roof?

Yes. I am afraid the local authority would not certify in that case.

When this Bill was having its second reading I threatened that I would bring in certain amendments to this section. I think the Minister must have regarded that threat with some seriousness, because, recollecting that he was not only Minister for Local Government but also Minister for Public Health, and possibly after consultation with his Parliamentary Secretary, he took care to dispatch that same night to my house a formidable parcel of influenza virus, so that I was quite incapable of writing or of drafting anything until yesterday morning.

The Senator was the culprit in my case.

I accept the personal disclaimer readily. I did manage to draft them yesterday morning. I know they are of importance, and I know they are in accordance with the views of the medical profession. I hope the Minister is going to co-operate with me in getting them through, and will consult his own medical advisers. I propose to indicate, by way of speaking to the section, what they are. I said that I thought this section was conceived too narrowly. I think it is conceived too narrowly in at least a couple of respects. It will be noticed that the medical officer of health can certify only that the existing accommodation in the house is inadequate for the proper segregation of the sufferer. The first general amendment which I hope to introduce, and which I hope the Minister will accept, is that he may certify that it is inadequate for the proper treatment or for the proper segregation of the sufferer. I doubt very much whether it will be easy to secure proper segregation, but I am perfectly clear that the provision of an extra room according to proper plans and designs will have or may have a profound curative effect, and most especially in the case of people who have been in a sanatorium, and have been discharged from it. I know that I said this on the Second Reading, but I am going to repeat it now, because it cannot be said too often: when a person is sent out of a sanatorium he is not cured. The disease is arrested, but it is only quiescent. It is there in his lungs, and has got to be sealed off, and his lungs have got to be hardened. He is not infectious. Therefore, you cannot certify that the room is necessary for his segregation from other members of the family. He will not be sent out, unless there is tremendous shortage of beds, so long as his sputum is positive, but he is sent out in a state in which if he goes back to dark, ill-ventilated and dirty surroundings he is going to re-develop the disease in a very short time, and unless he can be put into surroundings where he has light, air, cleanliness and good food, he will not complete his cure, so as to be able to take his part in the ordinary affairs of life. I think it is very essential that it should be possible for the medical officer to certify that the extra room is necessary, not merely for the segregation but for the treatment of the sufferer, and especially for the treatment of the sufferer who has just come out of a sanatorium. That is the first line of amendment.

Secondly, I want this section extended so as not merely to refer to the provision of a complete and separate room but to the alteration or modification of an existing room. As it is, you can get a grant to build an entirely new room. But supposing that what you really want to do is this: to knock out a small window which does not open fully, and to put in two big casement windows which would open fully and allow the sufferer to sleep in a through draught, or perhaps to raise the roof a little, I think you would not be able to do it under the section as drafted. I think the section should be extended, not merely to provide rooms for curing people but to allow of adapting rooms for segregation and for curing, with certain provisions, one of which has been mentioned by Senator Fearon—that before a grant is paid it should be certified by whoever is the certifying authority that the plans for the provision of the extra room, or for the alteration or modification of the existing room, are as suitable as circumstances permit. Now, I have the amendments drafted. I have got only one copy, but I can make that available to the Minister immediately if he will let me have it back.

Speaking on the section, I do suggest—in fact I am positive—that the introduction of those simple variations will about double the value of the section, and I ask the Minister to consider them, not from the point of view which Ministers sometimes do adopt, that everything which has not already been thought of by them or their Department must necessarily be either a bad thing or, at best, as the medical people would say, an innoxious substance with no curative effect. I have taken the trouble to fortify my own views, which I hold very clearly, by other views of an expert nature.

I have been looking through this Bill, which is a very short one, and I find that it deals with the provision of this all-important room for the purpose of segregation, but I am wondering what machinery exists—or, if it does not exist, whether it is intended to create some machinery —to ensure that the room, when provided, will be used for the purpose for which it is intended.

You cannot do it.

I think this matter is so vital that the whole object of the Bill will be negatived if it is left to the whim of the occupier of the house. I am envisaging cases where there seems to be a marked improvement in the health of the unfortunate patient, and where it might be felt that segregation was no longer necessary, although it might be vitally necessary that that segregation should continue. I see nothing at all in the Bill to ensure that the room provided at the expense of the State for a specific purpose will in fact be used for that purpose, and I am wondering what machinery the Minister has in mind to ensure that it will be used for the purpose for which it is provided.

Might I repeat the suggestion I made some time ago, that the provisions of this Bill be extended to conditions other than pulmonary tuberculosis? I have in mind conditions such as chronic heart or chronic chest, from which a person may have been suffering for years. I think they have just as much claim in many ways on our consideration. They are very often elderly people, and there is also the question that if an extra room were to be provided for other purposes, such as I have suggested, it would not be always associated with the tuberculosis problem. I was interested in Senator Summerfield's reference to the question as to whether the extra room would be used for the purpose for which it was provided. Well, I am afraid there is no means of compelling people to use a room for the purpose for which it is provided. It is just the same in the case of medicine: one prescribes medicine for people, but there is no guarantee that they will use it, or no means of compelling them to use it. Of course, we sometimes get people to use medicine by dressing it up in a different form, making it sweet, and so on, and so they do not know that they are taking the medicine. However, I am in favour of providing an extra room for people suffering from diseases other than tuberculosis, and I think that that could be easily arranged by extending the wording of sub-section (1) of Section 3, to include, as well as persons suffering from pulmonary tuberculosis, persons suffering from other diseases requiring medical treatment, and so forth.

I think the Minister suggested, when dealing with Senator Douglas's amendment, that the houses dealt with in Section 3 are houses that come under the Housing Acts.

They would be.

"Would be", yes, but has the wording in sub-section (1) of Section 3 any particular meaning?

No. In view of the fact that the additional room would be provided under this Bill, it would be a room that would be provided under the Housing Acts, and, of course, the houses, in connection with which these rooms would be provided, would likewise come under the Housing Acts.

But the house would not necessarily come under the Housing Acts?

No, not necessarily, but I think that Senator Douglas suggested that this could not be done in respect of houses that did not come under the Housing Acts.

I do not think I proposed anything of the kind.

Well, I may be wrong, but I thought that the Senator did suggest something like that. However, I have undertaken to meet, if I can, the Senator's point of view.

The Minister has not answered my question yet, in regard to the matter of making an application for the provision of an additional room. As I read this, the certificate of the medical officer of health can impose the provision of an extra room on an unwilling occupier.

No, there is no power to do that.

Surely, that is the reading of the section. It says that where the medical officer certifies that an additional room is necessary, the local authority shall provide a room.

No, it does not say that. It only says that where the medical officer states that an extra room is necessary the local authority shall make a grant.

Well, is not that the same thing?

No, Senator, it is not. However, Sir, I was wondering if the discussion was finished, because I should like to deal with some suggestions made by Senator Fearon. Senator Fearon, in the course of his remarks on a previous amendment, said something about ensuring proper plans, and I was wondering whether he was going to develop that point.

There will probably be an amendment on the Report Stage.

I should like to reply to one or two points that were made. First of all, let me set Senator Sir John Keane's mind at ease. There is no intention to compel anybody to take accommodation which they do not want. Under the regulations, people who want to avail of the provisions of this Bill will apply to the local authorities, an officer of which will be designated for the purpose. Then, what will happen will be that the appropriate medical officer of health will visit the premises, and if he finds that the premises are suitable for the provision of an extra room, and that an extra room is required for this purpose, he will certify to that effect, and the local authority may, or may not—let us be quite clear about this—make a grant, which will be assumed to cover the whole cost of the provision of this extra accommodation, but there is an overriding provision that the whole grant shall not exceed the grant approved by the Minister. They cannot go further than making the grant, and the grant, I presume, will be made to the owner of the premises, and, in the great majority of cases, the owner will prove to be the local authority itself. Now, the prime mover, the original mover, in this matter, is, of course, the person in the house who applies to come within the terms of the scheme. Therefore, if he does not apply, the machinery does not come into effect, and accordingly there is no question of a person being compelled to take extra accommodation to his house if he does not want to do so, but we assume that all those people who might be expected to benefit by the provisions of the Act will naturally apply for such extra accommodation. In that connection, I might also say, in reply to the point made by Senator Summerfield, that there are no provisions in the Bill to ensure that such an extra room will be used for the purpose for which it will be provided. So far as mortal man is concerned, there is no means of ensuring that that will be done; all that we can hope is that people in whose houses this disease exists will naturally want to get rid of it and to take advantage of every opportunity to do so. That is what we rely on.

With regard to the suggested amendments by Senator Kingsmill Moore, I shall have to wait to see the amendments, but I promise him that I shall give to them all the consideration that I can. Personally, I can see no objection to them, except to the extent of the additional cost that the provision of the extra accommodation he seeks for would impose on the Exchequer; and in view of the fight that I have already had to put up with the Department of Finance in connection with this Bill, I am afraid that I could not ask for more than I have. That is my answer to him as well as to Senator Fearon. We-are providing free accommodation in the cases of persons suffering from a certain disease, because of its infectious nature, and the cost of these extra provisions is estimated to be about £100,000. Accordingly, I am afraid that in the present state of the Exchequer, I would not receive the consent of the Minister for Finance to the imposition of any heavier expenditure. Consequently, I am afraid that I could not promise any extra expenditure at this stage.

Might I be allowed to point out to the Minister that amendments put down by Private Members, although they may not be quite all right from the point of view of the Department or the Parliamentary draftsman, may be all right in principle, and would the Minister agree to accept the principle of the amendments, even though they may not be drafted quite correctly?

I assure the Senator that if I find that I can accept these amendments, I shall bring in an amendment embodying the principle.

That is all I wanted—that the Minister would bring in an amendment embodying the principle.

Will the Minister accept the point that I made?

I am afraid that we could not accept that. It would be completely inconsistent with sub-section (1) of the section. I do not see how any county medical officer of health could certify that "in accordance with the terms of sub-section (1)" such-and-such a thing could be done. Apart altogether from that, I think that no Minister for Finance would accept the retrospective application of a Bill making grants.

He only does it in the case of taxation.

That is not a grant.

Will the Minister say whether it would be possible, under the regulations which he may make under this Act, to provide for, say, exceptional cases where the work has been completed?

The initiation as regards the room must be certified by the medical officer of health. I would not have any power in the regulations to provide it. If a grant were made the Comptroller and Auditor-General would question it.

Question—"That Section 3 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

On this section I should like to institute what I might describe as the softening-up process of the Minister, anticipatory to an amendment that I will bring in on the Report Stage. On the Second Reading I pointed out that it was not, from the point of view of the Minister for Finance, a very satisfactory thing to put up a permanent building, the property in which would pass to the owner of the existing building when, by all ordinary medical expectation, at the end of three or four years, it would be a white sepulchre or a white elephant, as either the unfortunate person for whom it was put up would be dead or he would be cured. From the public health point of view, and from the point of view of the Minister for Finance, a grant of £150 would have been provided for a man who was dead, or for a man who was well, and although nobody could put the room in his pocket, he could put the proceeds from the sale of it. Wherever possible it would be a much more economic proposition, as well as a better proposition from the curative point of view, to provide temporary and easily-erected outdoor shelters, which would remain the property of a local authority. These could be put up when needed, and taken down when not needed, and would always be serving the purpose of helping to cure somebody instead of remaining for 80 out of a probable 100 years quite ineffective for the purpose for which they were put up. I assume that a well-built room would last 100 years. Certainly the man for whom it was put up would not be there at the end of that time.

The Minister met my suggestion, not by a frontal attack but by a flank scrimmage. He said he would accept the figures given by Senator O'Reilly that these shelters could be provided for about £30 or £40, but he thought if he took into account the cost of putting them up, and other incidental expenses, they would not be as good a proposition as they appeared. As a matter of fact there is no expense in putting them up, except the hiring of a lorry to take them to the site. They rest on concrete blocks and have revolving floors. They would take about half an hour to erect. They are meant to provide outdoor protection from the weather for people who are sleeping in them, and they have the advantage that they can be turned around to get the sun.

There is no provision in this Bill whereby county councils are to provide these shelters out of their own funds and keep possession of them. Section provides for chalets, but it does not meet my objection, because any that are put up will become the property of the owners of the ground. Although these shelters may not have a life of 100 years, if properly built wooden chalets they should have a life of 60 years, and five years after being put up they will cease, from the public health point of view, to be needed, either through their complete failure or complete success.

Therefore, I propose to introduce a new section, to the effect that where-ever a county medical officer of health or a medical superintendent certifies that a member of a household in his area is suffering from tuberculosis—I use the word tuberculosis there to indicate all tuberculosis, because the treatment of bone tuberculosis may be dealt with—and should be segregated, in such circumstance the local authority administering the scheme may provide an outdoor hut or shelter for such period as the county medical officer of health may from time to time certify it to be necessary. That will enable the county medical officer of health to certify when a shelter is immediaely necessary where a patient cannot be got into an institution. While a patient is in the institution the shelter could be taken down, and when he comes out the county medical officer can again certify that for, say, two years, it was necessary that a chalet should be provided. At the end of that time it should be packed up and taken away. In addition, a local authority may, if they think fit, make such charges as are reasonable, either by lump sum or annual payments, or the Minister for Finance may make such an allowance in respect to the provision of a shelter as he thinks fit. It is possible that the last provision would create a difficulty, although I think otherwise. However, I intend to introduce an amendment on these lines and I suggest that it is no answer to say that under the tuberculosis scheme that may be done. I do not want it done under the tuberculosis scheme. I want it under an Act where everybody will understand it, because it will be so much more efficient than providing permanent outdoor chalets, which would become the property of the ground owner, and might be only used once.

In regard to the provision of a chalet or extra room, will any furniture or bedding be provided for patients? Are there any schemes by which local authorities would have power to provide bedding?

They have power, and they get grants for that purpose. I want to warn Senator Kingsmill Moore that I am afraid I cannot accept an amendment to the section on the lines he suggests. A proposal of that sort would be more properly one for a Public Health Bill or for the Tuberculosis Prevention Act.

I realise the difficulty. It was not so much a matter of housing as providing temporary housing.

I thought there might be that difficulty. Perhaps when I put down the amendment there will be an opportunity of dealing with the problem. There are other Bills in which changes might be required.

I think that this is a terrible waste of time. We have been talking for almost one and a half hours about adding rooms to houses for the purpose of isolating patients. My experience over a long period is that you will have to change the whole mental outlook of the people. The very fact of talking about the number of rooms——

The remarks of the Senator would more properly have been made on the Second Reading of the Bill. The Committee is now dealing on this section with a particular type of building to be used for the accommodation of patients.

I am sorry I was not here for the Second Reading. This is a terrible waste of time. You might as well put up a flag with the words "T.B.", so as to frighten people away from the very conception of isolation. This will have the contrary effect to what is intended.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 5 and 6, and Title, agreed to.
Bill reported without amendments.
Report Stage fixed for next meeting of the Seanad after this week.
Top
Share