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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 1946

Vol. 31 No. 5

Status of Builders—Motion.

I move:—

That, in the opinion of Seanad Eireann, the Government should introduce legislation to ensure, whether by way of statutory recognition of the status of and standards for builders, implied warranties in the construction for sale of new buildings, or otherwise, that the public will not be fraudulently imposed upon by "jerry-builders".

This motion really arose out of a discussion on the Second Stage of the Rent Restrictions Bill. I originated a discussion then on the matter with the Minister for Justice, because of the fact that reference to the problem of "jerry-built" and unsound houses had been contained in the Report of the Town Tenants' (Occupation Tenancies) Tribunal. In paragraph 157 of that report, and subsequently, reference was made at some length to a situation which arose to a large extent in the immediately pre-war years—more so than, perhaps, at any other time There were then a certain number of builders who were not as scrupulous as they might have been in keeping to the standard which the more reputable builders adopted, and, in consequence of their unscrupulousness, very great hardships, indeed, were imposed upon a considerable number of people. Now, it is as well that we should understand that when an ordinary person goes to buy a house, the purchaser takes upon himself the entire responsibility of knowing whether that house is well and substantially built, or that it does not contain any concealed defects. In many of the building schemes that existed in the period of which I speak, it was a common habit for the purchaser, so to speak, to be given a free lease, and therefore, when he was buying his new house, there would be no necessity for him to consult any solicitor. If there had been such a necessity to consult a solicitor, the solicitor, if he were advising him properly, would have advised him of the liability that was imposed upon him, and would have told him that he must either take his chance or get the house inspected by a competent surveyor. However, there grew up a habit, largely, of dealing with new houses on the basis of free leases and, in consequence, the purchaser did not get advice from anybody and, very often, did not appreciate the liability which he was taking on himself, in that he was making himself responsible for the fact that the house had been properly built. I might perhaps quote a sentence or two from the Report of this Town Tenants' Tribunal. Paragraph 157 of the Report of the Town Tenants' Tribunal states:—

"Section 31 of the Housing Act, 1931, made it an implied condition that every dwellinghouse let at a rent not exceeding £30 a year in the Dublin area or £25 elsewhere, is at the commencement of the tenancy fit for human habitation. An admirable provision worthy of extension; yet at times hard upon an innocent landlord. Sometimes a landlord may have bought a house from or erected by a dishonest builder, and may be unaware that it is unfit for human habitation. He may have to pay dearly to the tenant for breach of the implied covenant, without having any redress against the real culprit. During the building boom, novices who knew nothing about building, and sometimes others who were not novices, built and sold houses that were ‘jerry-built', and some worse than ‘jerry-built', leading to some remarkable actions in the courts. Such frauds can defy detection by the most skilled architect when he can only make a superficial inspection of the completed job. Inferior materials may be hidden in the structure which disintegrate or perhaps decompose with a penetration of moisture. Some shocking cases of this heart-breaking class of swindle came before the courts where humble people had put their life-savings into the purchase of a house, only to find, when time and weather revealed the fraud, that they had lost everything."

I do not think that anybody will have any doubt as to the existence of the danger. The danger is one that affects to a very large extent the young newly-married couple, and it is perhaps, appropriate therefore, that this motion should be discussed in the month of February, when we are approaching the spring, and when their thoughts are turning perhaps in a certain direction. I think it was Stevenson who once referred to the fact that if what was going to be the home looked very beautiful superficially from the outside in the eyes of a young couple in the spring and if it looked the same when the drabness of the winter came along it was, indeed, home.

Really the difficulty about this is that the people who are in the position, particularly in the future as I see it, of purchasing newly-built houses will not be able to counteract this fraud unless there is some step taken to assist them in so doing. There is a variety of ways in which it could be done. So far as the motion which stands in my name is concerned, I have referred to the question of standards in building, added to the method of an implied warranty, so that if a house which had been built was not properly habitable and was not constructed of good materials, a purchaser would have an action against the builder.

Perhaps I might deal with the second first of all. As the House is aware there is a provision in the Housing (Miscellaneous) Provisions Act, 1939, which deals with houses which are for letting. That section provides that in any contract entered into after the passing of that Act in the case of a house subject to a certain valuation, there shall, notwithstanding any stipulation to the contrary, be an obligation out of which you cannot contract. It is provided that there shall be an implied condition that the house, at the commencement of the tenancy, is reasonably habitable and an undertaking that it will be kept throughout the tenancy reasonably fit in all respects for human habitation.

So far as that obligation is concerned, that would not apply in the case of a purchaser, but I suggest that it would be a reasonable stipulation on a vendor to ensure that the house was habitable. He could not get away from this statutory provision, and in the ultimate event, would have to satisfy a court that the house he had built was reasonably fit for human habitation.

There have been plenty of cases in the last 15 years—I cannot speak of an earlier period because my experience does not go back far enough—in this age of building with concrete blocks, where houses have proved not to be habitable. I know three specific instances myself where completed houses were purchased by people who could ill-afford the loss, and who when they had completed their purchase in the spring of which I am speaking, thought the houses looked all right. In the winter, they have found that the houses were weeping and dripping with water that was saturating through what were supposed to be concrete blocks but what in fact were little dashes of cement thrown in to keep together voluminous masses of sand.

The proportions of the mixture were hopelessly weak and no reputable builder would have used them. I have suggested one way in which this matter might be met. The second way I would suggest is by prescribing some standards of building. That is a question which I can quite appreciate is a very thorny one, but I do say this: in future years, so far as I can see for a very considerable time, we are going to find it very difficult to get all the building materials we require and there will in consequence be governmental Orders as a result of which only a certain amount of building materials, particularly timber, will be released in a schedule for certain builders and for certain works.

It does appear to me clear, therefore, that if we could arrive at a standard we could at least ensure that those who did not work up to the standard, would, so long as the stringency remained, get no supplies so that they would not be able to continue after they had been found out in the construction of jerry-built houses. We now come to the question of how best that standard should be operated. The Vocational Commission's Report deals with this matter, not at very great length. But, in paragraph 604, it does deal with the setting up of a national construction council.

I would suggest that within the framework of what is advocated in that report, there might be a possibility of working out something that would meet the problem we have to face. I want to be quite clear on one point—I am not advocating anything, and would not advocate anything that would mean that the building profession would become something in the nature of a closed shop, because I do not think that would be desirable. But I do not see any reason why a builder should not be treated by statute as being a person of exactly the same importance and the same assistance to the community as, say, a solicitor. The solicitor's profession is confined by statute and in order to become a solicitor, you have to conform to certain regulations and qualifications, but anybody who conforms to those regulations and qualifications can become a solicitor.

In the same way I should say that the builders profession should be one that receives statutory recognition, that it should be put on the same plane, and that anybody who conforms to the regulations and the qualifications should be capable of becoming recognised by statute as a proper builder. I would take that a little bit further. It appears to me that if you set up a national construction council on the lines indicated in the report, it could do what the report suggests, that one of its functions would be to set up certain standards of work and materials for public buildings and dwelling-houses. I am not so much interested in business premises. They do not come into this motion. This is in respect to dwelling-houses alone. I think it could prescribe certain standards and, having prescribed these standards we could well make the case that one of the statutory things that members recognised by that council must do is to undertake to keep to those standards of workmanship and materials, so that to anybody who came along they could show that they were going to keep to these standards of workmanship and materials. They would be entitled to carry out work as a builder and would be entitled to get all the appropriate licences, within the proper priority, for that type of building, as well as being entitled to receive all the appropriate State grants. Here is the way I think it would be effective. If any member of that organisation was once shown not to have carried out a job according to the proper standards or with a good type of materials then he would be cut off from any Government grants or any licences he needed, and in that way you would have a sanction for good building, without any restrictive operation on the number of persons who would go into the building trade to build all the houses we require. It appears to me that that would be a substantial addition to the suggestion of the building operative trade themselves, the setting down of standards according to which they would operate.

As the House is aware there is something on the same lines in the shape of specifications by the Department of Local Government in regard to grants, to the effect that a job must be carried through under trade union conditions as far as labour is concerned. I suggest to the House that the analogy is more or less the same. At the end of the war we are starting out on what we hope is a new era, in which we must make up for the six years during which little or no building, in comparative terms, was carried on. I suggest very strongly to the House that when we are starting on that era, we should make certain that we are starting on the right foot, and that the buildings that will be put up here will be ones that will really last. The way to do that is by making certain that we put into new houses materials—that are now scarce and are likely to remain scarce for some time— that would be put to proper use. We should also make certain that the ordinary poor type of person who is investing a life's savings in the purchase of a house should be protected so far as possible from the fraudulent type of builder, who, I am glad to say, is not very frequent amongst builders, but is there. The investor should be protected from him so that that type of fraud is prevented in either of the two ways I have suggested, or in any other way that anybody else can suggest.

The Act of 1931 must have contemplated something in the nature of the idea with which Senator Sweetman has dealt. Unfortunately, it was very limited in its scope. It applied to houses let at £30 a year in Dublin, and £25 a year elsewhere. Of course, that limited the scope very considerably. The Act also provided that if a house was let for a period of three years or more the section would not be applied. A person could contract out of the Act by letting a house for three years or longer. It seems to me to be a pity that there was that limitation of rent. I would like to have applied it to houses built after the date of the Act.

There are numerous defects of that kind. One of the defects I see is that, according to the arrangements made between the architects and the builders, there are certain specified agreements or specifications providing for what is called a maintenance period. In other words a builder is liable for any defects that occur within six months of the issue of the architect's certificate that the building was complete. The owner pays the amount mentioned in the certificate, less 10 per cent. which is held back for a period of six months. If defects are discovered in the house within six months the contractor has to make them good. Otherwise the owner can get the defect remedied by another contractor and can pay him out of the money that was held back.

If defects are not discovered within six months it appears to me that the contractor goes free. That is a very bad system. It should be altered. If there is what are called latent defects in the building which could not be discovered for a certain period of time, and that they then appear, I would make the contractor liable not alone to the employer but to the assignee of the employer. Very often people get houses built and then sell them, and, as Senator Sweetman pointed out, the unfortunate purchasers later find out the defects. Probably the foundations were not properly made. I knew of a case where a row of houses was built without any foundations being laid at all. I think they are still standing. Probably they will collapse some fine day on the unfortunate occupiers or owners. There ought to be some protection in such cases. I do not like the idea of having a sort of closed borough of contractors, but I should like the law to be such that, in every building contract, there would be an implied condition that the materials were of the best, that the work was done in the best manner, and that the contractor would be liable, not alone to the employer, but to the assignee of the employer for a certain fixed period.

I have no objection to this whole problem being examined with a view to legislation, but I see great danger in legislation which would adhere too closely to the methods outlined by the proposer of this motion. I can speak with some personal experience of building. I have rebuilt a big country house at a cost of £12,000. I did that almost entirely with handy men. I could never have gone so far as I did if it had not been for handy men. That sort of thing is possible only in the country. I hope that the Minister realises that a considerable amount of building, which conforms in no way to the formal methods outlined in the motion, is done in country districts. In the rural districts, as Senator Counihan will confirm, there are men who call themselves builders and who are prepared to build a house or a cottage or an outhouse for a farmer. They are excellent men. The farmer supplies the material necessary and they build. They turn out a sound bit of work—in every way as good as the work done by the professional tradesman. I cannot see those men ever being brought within the purview of any licensing system. I should view with great alarm any legislation which limited the activities of these small, enterprising men in the country. How do some builders begin? A carpenter or a mason has a certain amount of intelligence and enterprise. He gets together a little money and builds a house, perhaps, for himself. As a result of his experience, he may build a house for somebody else. On the profit realised, he continues to build and, in the course of time, becomes an accepted and recognised builder. Anything that would impose a number of regulations, other than those we have already, on such a man would be deplorable.

I hope that the Minister will not consider legislation in this connection save in general terms and that he will not consider legislation which would curb the activities of small men of enterprise who want to build in a limited way and grow, by experience, eventually into big contractors. If you go back to the history of some of our big contractors, you will find that they were, in origin, tradesmen of enterprise. Enterprise of that kind will not prosper in any form under Government regulation. The Senator referred to people who conform to certain standards. I am not advocating bad building: I am rather the other way round.

I want to see the best building but I do not agree that, if people do not conform to certain standards, they should not receive a licence to obtain materials. Is it suggested that we are to be obliged for all time to go hat in hand to a Government Department for leave to buy the building material we require? That is a deplorable outlook. It is only due to the evils of the moment that the system is justified. I hope that it will be short-lived and that it will be succeeded by free enterprise.

There is a matter allied to this to which I would like again to call the attention of the Minister. The Minister may recollect that, on more than one occasion, I have asked him to consider the setting up of a bureau of standards. There are great dangers in the position in which our industries now are—sheltered, some of them enjoying monopolies or having restricted competition, and with a small market. Quality may suffer in those circumstances and the public will have no protection. Electric fittings, steel and aluminium products are capable of being brought under some form of a bureau of standards. That is the first line the Minister should take in any legislation to control quality. The Minister himself said that he was in favour of this proposal. That is some years ago and we have had nothing in the form of legislation of that type since. While I do not oppose the motion before us, I see danger in it. I hope the Minister, when he comes to consider it, will do so in its widest aspects with a view to avoiding any attempt to curb enterprise or regularise individual initiative.

I must agree, in the main, with the remarks made by Senator Sir John Keane. Senator Sweetman said that a builder who built a house should be responsible for a number of years for its being a perfectly-built house. There should be some finality about that. When a man builds a house and sells it, it is the business of the purchaser to get a certificate from an engineer or architect that the house has been soundly built. The responsibility for the condition of that house should not remain the liability of the builder for a number of years. If the Minister made a regulation that a certificate by an architect or an engineer should be given with the house when built, that should be sufficient. Senator Sweetman says that he does not want to make building a closed borough. I am afraid that the motion would make it that, if certain standards were to be insisted upon before a builder could enter upon business.

Some of the greatest builders we had in the City of Dublin were men who could not, originally, conform to regulations of that sort. We all know builders who built numerous houses in the county and around the suburbs of the city. If such a regulation as Senator Sweetman advocates had been in force, those houses would never have been built. It is very dangerous for a Senator to undertake the regulation of matters of that kind. In my own experience, houses were built, under county councils, the middle of the walls of which were stuffed with turf, which was plastered on the outside. That was the fault of the county council, the clerk of works and the engineer. It is almost impossible to guard against these things if everybody on the job does not do his work conscientiously. For that reason, the Minister should consider the matter carefully before making regulations. If you commence to make regulations, instead of increasing the number of houses to be built, you will curtail it.

Senator Sir John Keane mentioned the case of houses built by what are called "handy men", particularly in the country. I know a good many of these handy men who have done excellent work in building on a time and material basis or for weekly or daily pay. If we insist on the setting up of a standard for all houses, I think we are going to do a great disservice to the building industry and retard the building of houses which are badly wanted. I think the Minister should be very careful before formulating any regulations for the building trade.

This motion, as one which is designed to afford protection to the public, must have sympathy from all of us, but I cannot help feeling that the Minister himself must be rather laughing up his sleeve at the suggestion that the Government should decide on more interference in our affairs than is the case at present. The Government is being twitted constantly about its interference in this and its interference in that. As a businessman, I join with Senator Sir John Keane in hoping that the need for much of the interference that we have now will soon pass. For that reason, I wonder whether legislation in this particular matter would be wise or whether it would achieve the object the mover of the motion has in his mind.

I think it will be generally admitted that, pre-war, access to the building trade, as to my own trade and many other trades, was far too easy, but these trades have, in the main, a lot of power in their own hands and up to now they have not used it to control abuses within these trades. The builders are a very important and very powerful federation and I cannot help feeling that it is within their own competence so to arrange control of their own trade that they could inflict punishment upon any man calling himself a builder who departed from the code that they feel should be applied in their particular case.

In the trade with which I am connected myself, we have already taken control of the situation. Very exacting conditions have been laid down for new entrants to that particular trade. It is a matter that will be regulated without looking to the Government to see what it can do. While I have every sympathy with Senator Sweetman in what he is trying to achieve, I would suggest that the course which he suggests in his motion would defeat its own object and it would saddle us with the cost of further Government interference, since apparently it is to be a matter for Government legislation which would mean a permanent addition to our national expenditure. I seriously suggest, therefore, that any abuses that do exist in that very important trade could be wiped out if the builders themselves decide to wipe them out because they can freeze out the bad type of builder by depriving him of the trade discounts which are essential to his continuance in business.

I desire to support the motion brought forward by Senator Sweetman. My only objection to it is that, to my mind, it does not go far enough. He is concerned with poor people who invest their life savings in the purchase of a house. My concern is more with poor people who invest their life savings in the building of a house. I do know that since 1923, during the period of office of our two Governments the facilities afforded to such people by way of grants were, no doubt, responsible for the erection of a big number of houses throughout the country. I know, too, that many of the people who availed of these grants were not possessed of over much of the world's goods or cash and they naturally looked for a builder who could erect their new houses at the smallest price.

It was here that people referred to as handy men or people referred to down the country as "gubbauns", entered into the picture. Some of these people were able to talk better than they could work, and to satisfy those who proposed to build new houses that they could put up a better house at a lower cost than skilled artisans. I should not like to freeze out a tradesman who, after putting some money together, starts as a builder, but I certainly should like to limit the activities of people who have no experience, and who are out on every occasion to rake off the most they can for themselves by putting up some kind of house that, when pebble-dashed or plastered on the outside, will cover up the defects in the interior of the walls.

As far as the well-to-do classes are concerned, when they propose to build a house, they get plans from an architect or an engineer, and very often they can afford to have a clerk of works on the job. The business of the clerk of works, as everybody knows, is to see that no inferior workmanship is allowed to pass and that no inferior material goes into the building. Poorer people cannot afford such a service and I believe that it is the business of the Government, or of councils throughout the country, to ensure that people of that type will not be imposed upon by inferior craftsmen who are not too particular about the admixture of sand or cement and who would have no scruples in making a 12 to 1 mixture suffice where a 7 to 1 mixture would be necessary. I would not look upon the supervision by the Government of houses built for the poorer classes as interference. I feel there should be some form of supervision, even if it went to the extent of creating a few extra inspectors in the country whose business it would be to pay impromptu visits to places where building was being carried out to ensure that the character of the work was not inferior. I trust that Senator Sweetman's motion will achieve something in the way I suggest and that people who cannot afford the loss entailed in investing their money in the erection of bad houses, without knowing anything themselves about the actual work, will be protected in some way from inexperienced workmen who have very few scruples as far as their work is concerned.

I think this is the kind of motion which can usefully be discussed without being put to a division or without tying ourselves to the exact phraseology of the motion because it raises a matter of very considerable importance. Senator Summerfield, perhaps not unnaturally, assumed that if anything were to be done under this motion it would be done by Government interference. I do not think, unless something has happened within the last hour or so, that Senator Sweetman meant by regulations, regulations operated by a Minister, which is a very common form, particularly under the Department of Local Government—much more so than under the Department of Industry and Commerce. I am not at all prepared to agree with the last speaker that we could remedy difficulties of this kind by appointing a few more Government inspectors. I believe the remedy might be worse than the disease, but at the same time I do not think it would cure it. I am not in sympathy with Senator Sweetman when he thinks that you can have a code for builders the same as you can for solicitors. If he thinks, because a particular gentleman has complied with the niceties in order to entitle himself to be called a solicitor, that he is therefore a competent solicitor, I completely disagree with him. Harm can be done, undoubtedly, but I do not think any set of regulations such as might be applied to a solicitor could be applied to a builder. For my part, if a man were building a house for me, I should prefer him to be a man with good sound experience rather than a man with a lot of certificates attached to him.

I am not at all prepared to advocate a large system of restrictions, but I do believe that there are certain classes who require protection. In particular, I think that some protection is required for the purchaser of a house which a builder has himself built, and is selling. Thus far I would be prepared to go, but when you go beyond that it is necessary to exercise care. Perhaps he did not mean it, but it seems to me that Senator O'Dea was almost regarding a contractor in the same way as, on the previous Bill, people regarded the landlord — someone who was fundamentally bad, or, at any rate, dangerous. Where a house is sold he wants to provide that the original builder will be responsible to the person who purchases it. I think that is going too far. Let us suppose that I go to Senator Hearne and persuade him to build a house according to a certain standard. If it is below a certain recognised standard he will probably refuse to build it, but I imagine that he—I have never gone to him—or any other builder will be prepared to build a house that is up to a certain standard, but is not necessarily the best house that could possibly be built. At any rate, it seems to me that that if I make a contract with him or with any other builder, and he builds according to that contract, and I then sell the house, he should be responsible only to the extent of the contract which he carried out. If there is a contract he is legally responsible to see that it is carried out. But to place on him complete responsibility to the person to whom I sell the house that that is a good house, and will not give trouble within, say, three years, is to put too much on the builder. I am not a builder, and I have no particular brief for them in any way, but I think there is a danger there. When you see an evil and you want to remedy it, in doing so you are very liable to create another injustice, and I think that might easily occur in the case of the contractor.

On a point of order, I think I confined it to latent defects.

If the difficulty is about bad building, and there has been a contract, I should be responsible to the person to whom I sold the house, and I, in turn, could get at the builder. I am not an expert, but am putting the point of view that seems to me reasonable. Now, I come to the type of house with which I think Senator Ruane is concerned. He said that there are people who cannot afford to employ an architect. On the contrary, I would say they cannot afford not to employ him. A good deal of trouble at the moment is due to people who think they are saving money by not employing an architect, whereas they would really be protecting themselves, protecting the builder—assuming that he is honest, as most of them are— and, in most cases, getting a better and cheaper job by employing an architect. This idea that you can put up just anything, and that it will necessarily be cheaper is a great mistake. There should be more recognition of the importance of the architect and of the protection you get through him. Remember that the law places very considerable responsibility upon him. Solicitors will bear me out when I say that he has pretty definite legal liabilities if he undertakes supervision, and the plans are not carried out. Therefore, by employing an architect you are protected against the builder who is not honest. You also assist considerably the builder who is honest, and the net cost in the case of a small house is not very much greater. The first point made by Senator Sweetman was that he wanted protection against the jerry-builder. I do not know what the dictionary definition of a jerry-builder would be. The kind of person I have in mind is the man who builds a house, with or without an architect—if there is an architect, he is purely employed by him, and does not supervise the work—and then sells it. I think he should be responsible for a considerable time to see that that is a good weatherproof house. When you get beyond that, frankly I am a bit sceptical.

The skeleton of this motion is that in the opinion of Seanad Eireann the Government should introduce legislation to ensure that the public will not be fraudently imposed upon by jerry-builders. I do not know whether there has been established beyond doubt that the public have been imposed upon by jerry-builders. There is no doubt something in the report of the Town Tenants Commission with reference to jerry-builders, but to my mind the matter is somewhat in the air, and I think it will be very difficult for the Government to introduce legislation to ensure that some people at all events will not be imposed upon by the kind of builders who are referred to here as jerry-builders. Senator Sweetman's motion contains suggestions as to the line of legislation, but I think that it would be very difficult to put those suggestions into practice. Legislation is imposed for the protection of people who cannot protect themselves. That is why protection was given to the tenants of those small houses under the Housing of the Working Classes Act. The first protection was given by Section 12 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1885—60 years ago. Prior to that Act, a number of houses in a very bad state of repair had been let by unscrupulous landlords to poor people who required small houses, and were able to pay only a small rent. In fact a great number of them were not fit for human habitation. The Legislature in 1885, under Section 12 of that Act, enacted that notwithstanding any stipulation to the contrary there should be implied in a tenancy agreement for the letting of one of those small houses a condition that at the commencement of the tenancy the house was reasonably fit for human habitation. That was implied in the letting. It was a warranty implied by statute. In other words, notwithstanding any stipulation to the contrary, the landlord could not contract out of that. That protection was continued by Section 75 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890.

The next step, as far as Ireland was concerned, was Section 31 of the Housing (Miscellanous Provisions) Act, 1931, which has been referred to by Senator Sweetman; and there it was enacted that notwithstanding any stipulation to the contrary there should be implied, in every letting of a house to which that section applied, a condition that at the commencement of the tenancy the dwellinghouse should be reasonably fit for human habitation, and an undertaking that during the tenancy the house would be so kept by the landlord: that is, in a fit state for human habitation. So, it took from 1885 to 1931 to have legislation introduced placing the responsibility on the landlord to keep the house fit for human habitation during the tenancy. Up to that time, he was only bound to let a house which, at the date of the letting, was fit for human habitation, and although the house might have gone into disrepair after the letting, the landlord was not liable.

Now, we are dealing here in this motion, not with the letting of houses of a higher valuation than those which come under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts. I assume that we are dealing here with the building of new houses and the purchase of such houses by people of limited means. In the ordinary course of events, if a person buys an unfurnished house, there is no implied warranty that that house is reasonably fit for human habitation. If a person takes a lease of such a house unfurnished, there is no implied warranty. That house might be full of vermin, which would render the house unfit for human habitation, but the lessee has no remedy. I am assuming that these are houses to which the Housing of the Working Classes Acts do not apply. In the same way, if you take an unfurnished flat here in Dublin, there is no implied warranty that the flat is fit for human habitation.

It may be infested with vermin, and you have no redress unless you have entered into an agreement where there is an express warranty given of the fitness of the place. Now, in the case of a house that has been built by a builder and sold to a purchaser after it is built, there is no implied warranty in law that that house is fit for human habitation. On the other hand, if a purchaser buys a house from a builder while the house is in course of erection, there is an implied warranty laid down that it will be fit for human habitation, because it is reasoned that the builder then knows that he is building that house for a particular person and knows the purpose for which it will be used.

There is, as I say, legislation on the Statute Book at present dealing with the letting of houses to tenants under the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, as regards the fitness of the houses for human habitation, but there is no other legislation, either as regards the letting or the purchase of houses. The question then arises whether the Government here will introduce legislation dealing with the purchase of houses in advance of any legislation that has, so far, been enacted in England, where, I assume, the problem has presented itself from time to time. I am not aware that in England there is any enactment which goes as far as the legislation suggested by Senator Sweetman in his motion this evening. Section 31 of the Housing Act of 1931 here followed Section 1 of the Housing Act of 1925 in England, and that has now been repealed by Section 2 of the Housing Act, 1936, in England. So far as I can see, notwithstanding the introduction of a number of Housing Acts in England from time to time, from 1925 to 1936, no effort has been made to introduce legislation of this type.

It has been suggested here that people have been imposed upon by jerry-builders. There are, of course, two classes. First, there is the class of person mentioned by Senator Ruane, namely, the person who obtains a grant to build a house and entrusts the building of the house to a person who might well be described as a jerry-builder. Well, the owner of that house in many cases loses his life savings. On the other hand, we have the case of a person who obtains a loan from a building society or a bank to buy a house, or who obtains a loan on the instalment system to buy out the house. Of course, I myself think that there ought to be some way in which these people can be protected. I take it that if a grant is made by the Government, or under the Housing Acts, for the building of houses, certain conditions are laid down. I have not gone into the matter very fully, but I imagine that such grants will not be made except on the certificate of a surveyor or architect that the house has been properly built. I think there is a standard specification laid down, although I am not sure about that. In the same way, in the case of a person who is buying a house that is already built and is ready for occupation, undoubtedly, there should be some protection for that type of person.

Senator Sweetman has mentioned this idea of the free lease, which enables a person to get a house, but which deprives him of the opportunity of examining the bill, so to speak. Now, it is true that during the war a number of houses turned out to be unsatisfactory, not because of the jerry-builder, in my opinion, but because of the absence of suitable building materials during the war. I myself know of some houses where the timber used in building them was unseasoned Irish timber which, naturally, after a short time, began to warp. I think that there were even some cases, where it was difficult to obtain timber, where the timber from demolished old houses was used for the building of new houses, and, of course, that type of timber was very dangerous, because it was bound to be full of dry rot and so on. At any rate, personally I do not think it would be a wise thing for the Government to lay down standards for builders, as is suggested here in the motion. I think that that is very much in the air.

I think that we will have builders and jerry-builders, like the poor, always with us. Senator Sir John Keane spoke in favour of the handy man. The handy man may be quite good enough for Senator Sir John Keane, and if he is it is all right, but the handy man must not be imposed on any other person. While I have a certain respect for handy men on the proper occasions, I think a handy man is a danger, not only to the country, but to himself. I have known of some cases where handy men became contractors on a small scale in country districts, erected a number of labourers' cottages with some success and then started to run for contracts value for thousands of pounds. That was the end of them, and their sureties have been paying ever since.

I think myself there should be some way in which the public would be educated to appreciate the good builder and to distinguish him from the bad builder. There might be some kind of propaganda or publicity with information available for people who require houses. Undoubtedly, the housing problem is a problem that must be faced in the near future, and except in the case where a builder sells a house which he himself has built, there is little room for legislation.

It is possible that legislation might be the proper remedy—in the last resort, I admit—in cases where houses are sold to a purchaser who had no opportunity of having them inspected during the building. We know that, as a rule, these defects show themselves only after exposure to wind and weather and a certain amount of wear and tear reveals inferior materials. In that case, the Government might possibly consider the enactment of legislation which would provide that there should be a warranty implied in the case of a house for sale, the warranty being that the house at the time of sale is reasonably fit for human habitation and would continue so for a certain period. Of course, this question of enacting by law a guarantee for a number of years is impossible, and out of the question.

These defects will, no doubt, show themselves in the course of four or five years, and it might be possible, by legislation, to protect the purchaser against a builder who has sold a house which is not worth the money. In some cases that has happened and the house is impossible to repair and is a loss to the purchaser. I admit there are certain such cases, but I am not sure they are very widespread. For these reasons, I think that, at the moment, this question is at the stage of suggestion and the Government might consider it. If the Government is satisfied there is a problem, then I trust it will give it mature consideration, so that the purchaser of the future may rest satisfied that when he pays the money for his house he will get value for his money.

After listening to Senator Ryan, I think there is very little I wish to say on this matter. Firstly, I would have liked to get some idea of the magnitude of the problem visualised by Senator Sweetman. It seems to me that houses are built under different auspices. In the first case, that of local authorities, is there any problem? I hardly think so, because, after all, there are engineers and architects supervising the work from beginning to end. The second possible source of trouble appears to be in the building of houses private persons, to be used by these private persons themselves, and I think that in that particular case these people do go to the trouble of engaging engineers and architects, and that specifications are prepared which have to be followed during the construction. I do not think there is a problem there.

In the third group you have the speculative builders, and I wonder if Senator Ryan has remarked to what extent the problem exists because of the operations of these builders. I quite agree that dud houses are built just as I am sure that, under the most exacting conditions in industry, machines of a dud nature are turned out, as well as other commodities. Getting 100 per cent. perfection in production seems impossible, and I wonder if it is reasonable to condemn all of the speculative builders because of a few cases.

It seems to me that what is needed is that people who are desirous of obtaining houses from these builders should be instructed to see to it that the specification is produced to them, and to the solicitors, before they complete the purchase. If a builder cannot produce a specification from an architect or an engineer, and if he is not prepared to declare that the house has been built to the specification, then the purchaser ought to fight shy of a deal in that particular instance.

It is true that it may be very difficult to induce people to hold back and insist on seeing specifications in present circumstances. Houses are undoubtedly scarce, and there is a considerable amount of competition between people for those on offer. The effect of this is to cause people to take leaps in the dark more often than is advisable. If they are prepared to take leaps in the dark what, very well, can one do about it?

The motion would seem to ask members of the House to declare whether they are in favour of an institution of standards not alone in building but in other fields as well. If I am asked whether I am in favour of the idea of establishing an institution of standards, I have no hesitation in saying I agree with it, but it is one thing to agree, and another to see if it can be implemented in a reasonable time, and ultimately whether the cost would be worth it. If there is a monopoly in the building trade, we ought to investigate it immediately and secure the establishment of standards. If there is no monopoly but evidence to show that rings exist, I think, no matter what the cost or trouble, we ought to check them and insist that these people will follow standards.

The whole thing suggests to me the idea of establishing some kind of bureau of investigation, or some kind of court, similar to that which exists in the United States, where, if there is reason to feel that monopoly is operating to their detriment, or that rings are operating, people can lodge a complaint and the whole matter can be publicly investigated.

Senator Douglas was quite right when he stated that people cannot always afford to consult architects and engineers. It is true that amongst a great number of people there is a certain amount of uneasiness in approaching engineers or architects because of a feeling that the fees are generally exorbitant. There is undoubtedly throughout the country a very uneasy feeling with regard to the method whereby engineers and architects on contracts are paid a certain percentage of the cost by way of fees, which, in the public mind, results in the reaction, that the more money the job costs the better for the engineers, and that very often the interest of the individual or of a public authority may be sacrificed. It seems that the more money is spent the better the job ought to be. Nevertheless, people's incomes are limited, and they are slow to engage these officials, because they do not think they would be well advised to do so. The same thing operates in their minds with regard to the transfer of property, that the amounts they are charged by the legal profession are out of proportion to the services rendered. It is a matter that might be investigated by the institute that is in existence, which caters for engineers and architects, to see if the public is wrongly advised, or has wrong information. Something ought to be done to educate the public as to the true position, and to point out whether it is their own ignorance that is causing these grievous losses.

Another thing that occurs to me about it is this, that it is a pity some institution is not in existence, or that some institutions already in existence, would not undertake the preparation of a series of plans that would be suitable for various parts of the country, and for various types of people anxious to get houses, so that these plans would be adaptable. It is true that if a person wants a plan for a small bungalow, and goes to an engineer, he would not get it under £15 or £20. There is generally the suggestion that if he goes on with the building the amount will be set off against that accruing on the work. We have to realise, however, that the idea of a charge of that kind tends to make people shy of approaching engineers, as they should be approached, as industry would be the better of their services if more availed of.

As to the reference to handy men, I am afraid our ideas about handy men will have to undergo a change. It seems to me that in view of the way young men are now being educated, getting an excellent secondary education, and many of them then getting a considerable degree of technical education, with improved methods, it is no great task for them in a short time to become proficient in different occupations. The whole idea, not only in the building trade but in many other trades, is that the lines of demarcation seem to be erased to a considerable extent, and that in regard to those who might be looked upon as handy men some years ago, the term is not now quite suitable as we understood it in the past. I would not be inclined to despise a man who calls himself a handy man for want of a better title. It is just as well to continue the whole idea of that kind of man being there, and with competition well developed, the balance ultimately is in his favour.

I was rather surprised at some of the statements made during this debate. When houses are built by a local body they are under the supervision of county engineers, or by deputy engineers who are on the spot and if there is any deficiency or loose methods adopted that is the fault of the officials concerned. There may have been cases, and I think it has happened, where when contractors knew some local councillors the defects were overlooked. I suggest that if the Minister sent a notice to county managers asking them to see that there was strict supervision over houses being built by local bodies there would be a great improvement. The same applies to small houses in country districts where building grants have been largely availed of. It would be surprising if the Government paid out grants without having certificates from engineers, or from some one qualified to deal with such matters, to the effect that the money was wisely spent and that a decent job had been done. If that was not the case it would be an easy way to get money. I suggest that the Minister should tighten up the regulations so that the public would be satisfied that money was wisely spent. I know very little about speculative building as that is not common in country districts. If these speculative builders get grants, steps could be taken to ensure that they would not succeed in getting grants if houses were not properly constructed. When people put their savings into the purchase of houses it is up to them, before making the investment to see that they get decent value. A man who buys a horse always asks for a guarantee as to the soundness of the animal. In the same way, a builder should be asked if he is prepared to undertake that a house is properly built, and he should be asked for an engineer's certificate to that effect.

The engineer would be entitled to go through the house, examine it and see if everything was right. If it satisfied him, I suggest that the buyer of the house should be responsible for the engineer's fees, whereas if the seller said that the house was all right and if it did not satisfy the engineer, the seller should be responsible for the fees.

The last speaker referred to engineers' fees. I should like to see engineers and architects engaged by anybody about to build a house, especially in the country, because the most ideal sites are not always selected. If an engineer or architect were employed, he would be able to give advice on those matters. The people are very nervous about those fees but that matter, which concerns so many and has an interest for future generations, should be easily settled. There should be a few special architects or engineers whose salaries would be borne only in part by the persons concerned and the Government should meet them half way.

I do not think that the Minister is getting much enlightenment from this discussion. I think that it is futile and that it will not help us very much in getting rid of the jerry-builder. The trouble in the building industry, if we go back to 1913, was entirely, or almost entirely, confined to the speculative builder, who was a tinker, tailor, butcher or baker and, very often, a solicitor. Those formed groups and employed a carpenter or bricklayer to build houses. The arrangement was that he would build at a certain figure. If he was able to reduce the price in any way, he obtained commission. Consequently, he had no inducement whatever to make a good job of the house. Therein is the root of the trouble in the building trade. If the House is able to advise the Minister how to overcome that trouble it will have gone a long way towards solving the problem of bad house-building. The man regularly engaged in the building trade does not, as a rule, go in for speculative building. It is those groups I mentioned which engage in this work. When there is a rush for houses and they see an opportunity of making money quickly, they form what is known as a building society and employ tradesmen.

Senator Buckley complained about the fees of architects and surveyors. After all, those people make a substantial contribution to the building industry. I do not know if their fees are excessive, but what about the solicitors' fees.

He had a crack at the solicitors, too.

What I intended to convey was that the public were uneasy in that regard. I myself did not subscribe to the view at all.

Senator Sweetman was very unwise when he compared a builder to a solicitor and wanted to put him in the same position, with the same safeguards. If a solicitor does a bad job, you cannot come back on him. You are without redress. If a builder makes a bad job, Senator Sweetman wants to ensure that he will be——

Of course, you can come back on a solicitor.

I never knew anybody who did it. I should be very glad to hear of the number of cases where the house purchasers took action. I do not think that we have helped the Minister in making up his mind. We have not indicated the line on which legislation should proceed with a view to safeguarding the ordinary purchaser. Before the war, there was a great demand for houses and people were prepared to buy ill-built dwellings. Can anybody visualise a similar position in the immediate future? I do not think so. The supplies will not be there and, consequently, the speculative builders will not multiply to the extent they did before 1939. I do not know any more than anybody else about this matter but I suggest that, where a house is sold by a speculative builder, a guarantee should be given that that house would be repaired free by him for, at least, three years, excepting damage caused by the act of God. That might be some help. With the best intentions in the world, things will sometimes go wrong. Floors might, for instance, suffer from woodworm. The line I have indicated might be adopted by the Minister. I was amused to hear Senator Sir John Keane talking about handy men. He said that his house cost £12,000. I hope he got value for his money, because £12,000 is a great deal to spend on the repair of a house.

That was the cost of rebuilding the house. It had been completely burnt down.

There is no doubt that there are handy men who are just as competent as professional tradesman but, on the whole, I think that it will be found that the regular tradesman is much cheaper in the end than a handy-man.

On the question of time, I am completely in the hands of the House and the Minister. I put down the motion merely for the purpose of discussion and not with a view to a division. Whatever is convenient for the House will suit me.

Perhaps the House will agree to extend the time of the sitting.

Having come here to-night, the Minister should not be asked to come again.

Agreed: That the House adjourn not later than 9.30 p.m.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

Senator Foran was right when he said that the Minister was being asked to introduce legislation which nobody had, so far, outlined. I am in agreement with the motion generally, but I am at a loss to see how practical effect can be given to it. I do not think that anybody has shown how that can be done. There has been reference to handy men. In my county it is said that there is no difference between the handy-man and the finished tradesman.

The fact is that a lot of men in the building industry started as handy men and while Senators spoke about handy men as against finished tradesmen, they did not indicate where these workers stopped being handy men and started as being finished tradesmen. That is the difficulty. The very fact of a man having certificates, or whatever sort of documents are necessary to indicate that he is a tradesman, does not in itself indicate that he is a better man than a very efficient handy-man. I agree that the public would need some protection, if it were possible to give it, against improper workmanship but I think the Minister is being asked to do something that it would be very hard to carry out in practice.

The main idea of course behind this motion is to ensure that people will get good value for their money and that builders will put good and solid workmanship into the building and reconstruction of houses. Senator Meighan said that houses are being built under the Housing Acts and that there an onus rests on the officials of the Local Government Department to ensure that these houses are sound and of good workmanship. I am inclined to think that the only onus that can be put on officials of the Local Government Departments is to ensure that such houses are built in conformity with provisions of the Act, that is to say, that they are not less than 500 square feet and not greater than 1,250 square feet capacity. That, I think, is the only onus that rests on the officials of the Department of Local Government in administering these grants. A house may be unsound even though it is qualified to receive a grant because these officials hardly go to the trouble of boring and testing the walls. To ensure that the houses were soundly constructed, it would be necessary to have a clerk of works at the actual erection of these houses. It would not be possible to have a clerk of works present at the erection of some small house in a backward district in County Leitrim or to send him out to some district beyond Oughterard when a house is being reconstructed to qualify for the grant of £40. It is not possible for people with a small farm of £5 valuation to employ a clerk of works.

The only thing I can suggest—and I am not sure that it would be practicable—is that the officials of the Department of Local Government in paying grants, should try to ensure that a certain standard of workmanship is observed in the erection of these houses as well as seeing that the houses complied with the other regulations laid down under the Housing Acts. As regards the handy-man as against the finished tradesman, neither I nor anybody else can say exactly when a handy-man becomes a tradesman because the majority of tradesmen, with the possible exception of those in cities or large towns, started as handy men and ended up as being finished tradesmen. When a worker ceases to be a handy-man and becomes a tradesman is a thing that cannot be decided.

There is a scarcity of builders in this country and a lot of the work in rural areas is being carried out by pretty efficient handy men. Some of them do good work and others do bad work but, generally the man who is getting a job done will try to get the best possible builder he can get. Very often in the reconstruction of houses, handy men undertake to do the work and to supply all the materials other than stone, sand and lime, for the amount of the grant. In connection with houses built by local authorities, I do not at all agree that local authorities always get good value for the money expended. I have one or two cases in mind of houses built by a county council pre-war for £230 and £250 each. I suggest that no man could build a labourer's cottage for that sum. Of course, we are bound to have faulty houses in these circumstances. That often arises where you have keen competition between handy men. When labourers' cottages are built over a scattered area in a county, the work cannot be properly supervised. To ensure that it would be properly supervised, it would be necessary to have an official on the spot at all times. If it could be done—I agree it would be very hard—some system should be devised to ensure that good workmanship is put into these houses.

Like Senator Summerfield I was surprised at the appearance of this motion over the name of Senator Sweetman who, I understand, belongs to a Party that is seriously perturbed at what they describe as the growth of bureaucracy but who are, nevertheless, constantly proposing motions here calling the Government to extend further the range of its operations and to do things for the public which the public might reasonably be expected to do for itself.

This is another of these motions for which a plausible case could be made if one assumes, as Senator Sweetman assumed, that the public is incapable of protecting itself. Underlying this motion is the assumption that the public is at the mercy of the jerry-builder, that there is nothing a person can do to prevent himself from being defrauded when he goes to purchase a house or to ascertain whether a house he is going to buy is constructed of sound materials and is likely to prove durable. I do not know how far Senator Sweetman thinks the Government should go in protecting the public in commercial transactions. We set up certain standards for foodstuffs because it is considered to be in the public interest that the buyer of foodstuffs should be protected against fraudulent tradesmen. There is a Bill before the Dáil now to extend the powers of the State, to prescribe standards of quality for foodstuffs and certain consumption commodities, which does not appear to be welcomed by Senator Sweetman's political associates who object to it as an extension of bureaucracy. People buy milk every day. People buy whiskey and certain other foodstuffs every day——

Foodstuffs!

——or certain necessities which are required by law to be sold only at a certain standard quality. A person buys a house only once in a lifetime and rarely rushes into a transaction of that kind. If he has any doubts about the title of the vendor, he consults a solicitor. If he has any doubts about the quality of the house, he will consult or he ought to consult an architect or an engineer. He is certainly in a position to get expert advice but the suggestion underlying this motion is that instead of putting on the purchaser an obligation to get expert advice, to prevent himself being defrauded, the State should give that protection instead. Does that apply to houses only? People buy horses and I have heard that more fraudulent transactions take place in relation to horses than in relation to houses.

It has been so alleged. For some reason the term "horse dealing" had become synonomous with trickery in all languages. Is it suggested, because gullible members of the public may buy horses which are not nearly as good as they looked when gingered up for sale, that the State should step in and secure a guarantee of quality or an implied warranty as to the quality of the horses? People buy motor cars, and I have no doubt that many second-hand motor cars are sold in consequence of the glowing description of the vendor, which was not proved to be justified when the car went into action.

Is there not a legal warranty in the case of a car?

I was talking of a second-hand car.

Was it a new horse or a second-hand one?

Second-hand houses are sold, too, and no doubt the Senator's suggestion here applies to second-hand houses as well as to new houses. I think we could go much too far in the matter of placing upon the State the obligation of protecting citizens. Mind you, I do not agree with Senator Summerfield that the State should not interfere at all, but leave it to organisations of traders to impose certain regulations, which has been done in some cases, including the one to which he referred. While most of those traders' organisations, which are formed for the purpose of limiting supplies of commodities to persons of whom they approve, start off with the highest motives and with the welfare of the public in their minds, they always reach a stage where the welfare of the collection of traders is a predominant consideration. The growing tendency in that direction which I have noted recently—it applies not merely in the motor trade but in a number of other trades—that organised purveyors of materials apply only to members of certain associations, is, I think, a cause of perturbation, and may occasion State action at some stage in order to ensure that the channels of opportunity for enterprising newcomers in business will not be unduly restricted. I am not in favour, however, of instituting any system of registration or certification of builders, either by the State or anyone else. That suggestion made by Senator Sweetman is based upon the naïve assumption that if one segregates all the builders in this country into two classes, the first class being the persons who could pass any test of proficiency or experience you might impose, and the second class being those who could not, all the honest men would be in the first class, and all the dishonest ones in the second class. There is no foundation for that assumption, nor do the past operations of a builder offer any guide as to his future conduct. A man may build 50 good houses, and then proceed to build ten bad ones.

I do not think the reverse could be counted on? Having built 50 bad houses, he could not be counted on to build ten good ones.

I am not so sure that that is so. There are other occupations in any event in which the people who are now the most respectable, because they are the most wealthy, are those whose practice was the most doubtful. In this matter, one must not assume precedents where they do not exist. Reference was made to the Housing Act, 1931, and I agree fully with Senator Ryan that that does not appear to be relevant to this particular issue at all, because that Act and the previous Acts to which he referred were framed to regulate the relationship between landlord and tenant, and not for the purpose of establishing any particular standard of building, or any code of conduct for building contractors. I think too that we have to rely in the main upon the assumption that people will protect themselves. We must assist them to do so. It is frequently not easy for the public to operate the safeguards which are available to them, and in the case of building there is an obvious need to provide standard specifications of materials. That has been done. In the past, we in this country normally adopted the British standard specifications, but latterly a sub-committee of the building council has been meeting regularly, preparing Irish standard specifications for building materials, and is arranging to publish them. The idea of having standard specifications is to facilitate a person who wishes to specify in a contract for building the use of materials of a certain quality. Instead of having to inscribe in the contract elaborate descriptions of the materials, he can merely quote the relevant standard specification number, and, by doing so, create a contractual obligation on behalf of the builder to use materials of that quality. Similarly, in relation to other commodities. I do not know if it is practicable to prescribe standards of building as distinct from standards for building material, but to a considerable extent I think we can afford to the public the means of protecting themselves by the institution of a system of standards.

Senator Sir John Keane stated that I had spoken in favour of such an arrangement before, but had done nothing about it. In fact, it is hoped to introduce in the Oireachtas this year legislation which, amongst other matters, will set up a standards authority. Let me be quite clear that I do not contemplate that the State should take any obligation to enforce the production of materials only of a prescribed standard quality, or do more than publish those standards after consultation with the industrial and commercial interests concerned, and limit the use of the term "standard quality" to materials that do, in fact, conform to the standard. If we have a standard quality cement, then only cement of that quality can be so described. Somebody may make some other quality of cement, below standdard or above standard, and sell it either because of its cheapness or for some other reason, to persons who want cement of that particular type, but the utmost the State can do is to make it illegal to describe any cement as of standard quality unless in fact it is. The same would apply not merely to cement but to building materials generally, and to any industrial product or other material which is made the subject of a standard specification. There is no good in discussing the details of that contemplated legislation now, because the Seanad will shortly have an opportunity, I hope, of going into it in detail, but it may be of interest to learn that the preparation of the legislative proposals is well advanced, and it is hoped to have them submitted to the Oireachtas at a comparatively early date.

I think that is nearly all I want to say upon this motion. I dislike the idea of putting upon the State more functions of this character. It may be that there will be occasions upon which the State cannot avoid taking those functions, because a public interest arises and nobody else has the effective power of protecting that interest. To revert to the matter that I mentioned before, which was raised by Senator Summerfield, I think there are many cases where, if it is desirable to restrict the number of people engaged in a particular trade or to determine the conditions under which they engage in that trade, it is far preferable that the State should do it, even though it may lead to complaints about the growth of bureaucracy, than that it should be done by private traders' organisations.

On the whole, however, the more we leave it to the public to protect themselves in commercial transactions, giving them only the facilities and information which will enable them to do so, the better it will be, not merely for the growth of enterprise amongst the people, but also for the preservation of a proper relationship between the State and the public. Therefore, I can hold out no hope that the Government will produce legislation along the lines suggested here, either for the setting up of a system of registration and certification of building contractors, or for the establishment of an implied warranty in building contracts as to the quality of the materials or the method of construction employed in the erection of buildings.

I am informing the Seanad that there is at present an organisation working upon the preparation and publication of standard specifications for building materials: specifications which will have no legal basis although, undoubtedly, they will be normally quoted in building contracts and will be made the basis of business dealings in these materials, and that we have in preparation legislation which will establish a standards authority and give to the standard specifications published by that authority certain legal protection. I contemplate that that standard authority will also have independent power to analyse and inspect the quality of materials offered for sale, and to publish their analyses and comments thereon so that the public will, through the activities of that authority, have available to them the information which will enable them to conduct their buying and selling with a full knowledge of all the facts, and that, in my opinion, is as far as the State should go.

In one way I was not very surprised at one thing that the debate showed. I assumed, when I was introducing this motion, that all the members of the House were aware of the contents of the Report of the Commission on Vocational Organisation, but it very shortly appeared to be quite clear that I was incorrect in making that assumption. That can be understood in respect, perhaps, of Senator Summerfield, but I find it very difficult to see how it could be so in the case of the Minister. Now, first of all, I do not think it can be suggested that an implied warranty could be regarded in anyway as Governmental interference, and in so far as the question of a standard and status was concerned, I thought I made it quite clear that my motion was along the lines of paragraph 606 of the Report of the Vocational Commission, where it is made perfectly clear that that commission wanted to avoid anything in the way of Governmental interference, that the one thing that they felt was that such interference was leading to bureaucracy, and that therefore this should be a matter for a national council, to be drawn from the producers of raw materials, in connection with building and other matters, and should be given statutory recognition.

And have a bureaucracy of its own.

Well, a bureaucracy, of itself, would be one that at least would be run by people who knew what they were dealing with, which sometimes has its advantages. However, I would not have been drawn into that only that the Minister suggested that this was one of a series of motions. I do not know what the other motions are, which would make this one of a series. However, I suppose that on some other occasion the Minister will probably explain that to the House. I think it was also somewhat peculiar that the Minister mentioned the analogy of foodstuffs and the sale of foods, and said that there was a provision, in regard to the sale of foodstuffs, to have a warranty of that sort, because it just happened that I had with me the wording of one of the paragraphs of the Report of the Town Tenants Tribunal, which is as follows:

"It is, therefore, suggested as one of the most important recommendations we can make, that this evil..."

the evil referred to there is jerry-building.

"...more difficult of detection beforehand, and often more cruel in its results than the sale of tainted food, should be dealt with by law, even though building for the time being may have largely come to a standstill."

In view of that report, it was, to say the least of it, somewhat unfortunate for the Minister to have chosen that analogy.

The Minister also dealt with horses and motor cars. I think he would agree with me that a home—a shelter over one's self and one's family—is a necessity, and that however pleasant the possession of a horse or a motor car may be it is hardly a necessity in the same sense as a home is. It seems to me to be stretching the analogy extraordinarily far to put the home in the same position as the horse. I am glad to hear that it is considered that during the coming year we will have a discussion on this matter and have legislation fixing standards. When that comes before us, no doubt we can discuss it and also discuss some of the implications of this motion in a more general way. The actual fixing of some sort of standards is, I think, a matter that will be non-controversial, but I think that the purely aspect of the matter might be more profitably dealt with in this House than in the other House, where, perhaps, they could not be discussed on the same technical lines.

With regard to what was said by various Senators who took part in the debate, I do not want to delay the House at this late hour by going into the matter as carefully as I might. It may have been my own fault, and that I did not make myself clear in my opening statement, but it appears to me to be quite clear that the terms of this motion could not possibly, as Senator Ó Buachalla very correctly said, affect two of the three types of buildings. It cannot affect public authorities, because public authorities do employ their own architects—we hope, not engineers, because the engineer has nothing to do with housing, and the person who employs an engineer is only wasting his money. I think we should take the view of Senator Douglas, that if a person can afford to get a properly qualified man, then the only properly qualified man is an architect, but unfortunately an architect cannot tell what defects are there, once the building is completed. He would have to be there all along while the house was being erected before he could say whether there were certain defects or not. It was particularly for that reason that I thought there should be an implied warranty. So far also as the second-class was concerned, this motion could not possibly refer to them either. The motion was intended to refer to the type of builder, commonly called the speculative builder. Senator Foran said that that was only a passing phase, but these speculative builders will come again in the next few years, as a result of the shortage of houses. No matter what anybody may say to the contrary, we shall see the speculative builder again, and he would not exist if it were not for the shortage of houses.

It is particularly to deal with this case that I felt something of the nature indicated was necessary. Senator O'Reilly suggested, I think, that nobody had mentioned any plans for dealing with the matter. I felt inclined at the time to interject to the Senator that it would be wiser for him not to make such a comment without being here the whole time to hear what had been said, because, at the beginning, I suggested that form of plan, and if the Senator had been in the House while I was speaking, he would have heard both forms, and it would be a little more courteous, I would suggest, not to assume that nobody had put forward a plan unless he were here all the time to make certain one had not done so.

There is only one other point I would like to deal with to-night, and that is the point mentioned by Senator Sir John Keane. I entirely agree with him that the question of licences and quotas is only a passing phase, but, equally, that should be related to the fact that that the speculative builder is the danger, as I see it, to the public in the immediate future. If he is going to operate during that period of licensing, before building materials come into full supply again, then I feel the matter could be dealt with.

However, as I said, I really put this motion down for discussion, not for the purpose of division. If, in consequence of any discussion, it focuses attention on the fact that a person buying a new house, particularly in the forthcoming period is wise to get a competent qualified opinion before he buys it, then even that attention will have done much good. I beg leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
The Seanad adjourned at 9.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, February 27th.
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