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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 1946

Vol. 31 No. 6

Army Pensions Bill, 1946— ( Certified Money Bill )— Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Although the objects of the various provisions of the Army Pensions Bill, 1946, are quite simple in themselves, their legal description is, perhaps, somewhat complicated, so I propose setting out section by section the meaning of each:—

Section 1 is, of course, the definitory section.

Section 2 abolishes the restrictive clause of the 1923 Act whereby dependents of deceased pensioners cannot receive allowances unless the pensioner died within four years after receiving the wound for which he obtained the pension. The Act of 1923 provides allowances for the total dependents of deceased pensioners, subject to the condition that the pensioner died solely from the wound in respect of which he was in receipt of a pension, and also subject to the restriction that death ensued within four years from the date of the wound. In the 1927 Act and later in the 1932 Act the condition remained but the restriction was removed, so that the dependents qualified under the 1927 and 1932 Acts, no matter when the death occurred, provided it was due to the disablement for which the deceased had been receiving a pension. There is, therefore, a disparity between the provisions of the 1923 Act and those of the 1927 and 1932 Acts and a recent case has brought to notice the injustice of the restriction. As far as I am aware, the case referred to is the only one involved at the moment, but about 15 cases may be affected in the course of time.

Section 3 deals with the question of double compensation in respect of the same death or injury. Under the Act of 1923, if a person be entitled to a pension, allowance or gratuity under the Army Pensions Acts, and if that person receives from an independent source compensation for the same death or injury, then the Minister in fixing the amount of pension, allowance or gratuity may take into consideration the compensation awarded. Recently, we have been advised that, as the Acts stand, we may take such compensation into consideration before the grant is made, but if the pension, allowance or gratuity be awarded and paid before the compensation is awarded, then we cannot take the compensation into consideration or alter the grant in any way. This leads to the anomaly that the claimant whose award of compensation is known beforehand suffers in comparison with the person who does not disclose that an action is pending or that compensation has been received. The section, therefore, provides that, in making the award of pensions or allowances, the Minister may have regard to any compensation granted in respect of the same death or injury even if that compensation be granted after the award of pension. In other words, it empowers the Minister to review his original award.

Section 4 provides an increase of pension for married men with children. Before the emergency, the maximum basic pension for men was 26/- a week, with an extra 5/- if the man was married. Under the 1943 Act, this rate was increased for emergency personnel to 42/- a week with an additional 10/- in the case of a married man. For officers, the pre-emergency rate related the pension to a percentage of their pay. The 1943 Act prescribed £120 a year as a minimum for all commissioned ranks and raised the married pension from £20 to £30 a year.

When the 1943 Bill was before the House, it was criticised on the grounds that the rates did not differentiate sufficiently between married men with and without children, and it was suggested that the money made available should have been allocated so as to make provision for the disabled man with children. Recently, the Government decided to make more money available for pensions and it has, therefore, been decided to use it to help those soldiers with families. The Bill, therefore, proposes that the maximum basic pension should remain at 42/- a week for men and that, if the pensioner be married, he should have a choice of either the old rate of 10/- a week, irrespective of children, or of the new rate of 7/6 a week for his wife and 4/- a week for each child. For the married man without children, the old rate is more favourable, but, if he has even one child, the new rate will be better by 1/6 a week, and by another 4/- a week for every child after the first. For the married officer without children or even with one child, the old rate is the more favourable, but, if he has two children, he will benefit under the new rate by £10 6s. 0d. a year and by £10 8s. 0d. a year for every child after the second.

The Bill gives this choice of rates to every married person in receipt of an emergency period pension who was enlisted or commissioned before the passing of the Bill, but not to those enlisted or commissioned thereafter, and such persons will be entitled only to the new rate.

Sections 5 and 7 deal with the same problem: that of the Army man who, on discharge, received a wound pension or gratuity for disablement incurred during his service, and who, on subsequently re-enlisting during the emergency, contracted a fresh disablement. There are four such cases but only three have, so far, been investigated. In these three cases, the pension in respect of the second disablement cannot be paid because, under Section 20 of the Act of 1927, no pension or gratuity could be granted to any person to whom a pension or gratuity had previously been granted. As this is, obviously, unjust we are remedying the defect, in Section 5, in cases where originally there was a wound pension in existence, and, in Section 7, the other cases where a gratuity was originally granted. The Bill provides that, where an old wound pension exists, it will merge in the new pension, and, where a gratuity was received, if the fresh disablement be due to disease and reaches the minimum degree necessary, the man will receive a disability pension, and, if the new disablement be due to a wound, the man will receive a wound pension or a gratuity, according to the degree of the disablement.

Section 6 deals with the case of officers who, having been discharged medically unfit, obtain a personal pension but who, though married, cannot receive a married pension because of the fact that, immediately before their discharge, they were not in occupation of married quarters or were not in receipt of lodging, fuel and light allowance. This allowance ceases when an officer has been absent on sick leave or has been undergoing treatment for a period of 12 months. After that time and for a further period of six months, he receives half his normal rate of pay without any allowances. It can happen, therefore, that an officer is discharged after 18 months' sick absence and, as he was not in receipt of lodging, fuel and light allowance at the date of his discharge, received a personal pension but was not entitled to a married pension. If he died from the disease in respect of which he was drawing a pension, his widow and orphans would not be entitled to any allowances under the Army Pensions Acts. It seems unjust that both the officer and his dependents should be thus deprived because of a technicality in the Acts, and, in Section 6 of the Bill, steps have been taken to remedy this defect.

Section 8, 11 and 13 merely extend the date of applications for wound and for disability pensions, and for the dependents of deceased persons. Under Section 8, the date for the dependency applications will now be 12 months from the death of the soldier, or before the 1st January, 1947, whichever is later; that for wound pensions, under Section 11, will be 12 months from the date of the soldier's discharge, or before the 1st January, 1947, and that for disability pensions, under Section 13, within four years of the soldier's discharge, or before the 1st January, 1947.

Section 9 is an administrative matter and deals with the payment of travelling expenses and subsistence allowance to applicants under the Army Pensions Acts. Section 21 of the Act of 1927 and Section 20 of the Act of 1932 restrict the payment of those expenses and allowances to claimants who attend before the Army Pensions Board in Dublin, because both Acts contemplated that all claimants would be examined by the board in Dublin. Last year, however, it was found necessary in the interests of the many persons claiming under the 1943 Act to appoint pensions medical officers throughout the country so as to expedite the determination of claims. By means of these medical officers, all claims outstanding in Cork, Limerick, Clare and Kerry were cleared, but we were unable to re-imburse the expenses of the claimants. Section 9 has, therefore, been introduced to enable us to pay such expenses and thus to expedite the determination of claims.

Section 10 relates to the dependents of deceased Army personnel, that is dependents such as parents, grandparents, brothers or sisters as distinct from widows and orphans who are already provided for under the Act of 1927. The Acts of 1923, 1927 and 1932 distinguish between total and partial dependency. Where a person was wholly dependent on a deceased person an annual pension, technically called an "allowance", was granted, but where the dependency fell short of total, it was deemed to be "partial", and a capital sum, called a "gratuity", was payable. The amount of the gratuity varied with the degree of dependency with the result that some dissatisfaction was caused by the award, and it was decided in the 1943 Act to drop the term "partial dependent" and to introduce a new category of dependency, called "main dependency", which provided for a reduced annual allowance in such cases. We were advised, however, that to establish main dependency, a person's income from all sources should be less than the contribution made at the date of his death by the soldier to the dependent, and this had the effect of operating against the majority of claimants. There seems, therefore, no alternative but to revert to the old scheme of gratuities, and Section 10 of the Bill, accordingly, distinguishes between three types of dependency— whole, main and partial. For wholly dependents it provides an allowance of £52 a year in the case of a deceased officer and £26 a year in that of a deceased soldier, and there may be granted as many allowances as there are total dependents: for main dependents, the allowances will be the same, but there will be only one allowance even if there are many main dependents; for partial dependents there will be a gratuity to one or more dependents, but the gratuity or gratuities payable may not exceed in the aggregate a sum of £112 10s.

Section 12 deals with ex-members of the Forces who were discharged suffering from tuberculosis but who failed to obtain a pension, because the disease was regarded by the Army Pensions Board as not being attributable to service. About 1,000 men have to date been discharged from the Army medically unfit whose disability was then or subsequently diagnosed as tuberculosis, and about 415 have applied for pensions; of these, 300 have been awarded pensions but over 100 failed because their condition was not regarded by the board as attributable to service. While it may be urged that many of these men were physically fit when they joined the Army, and that, consequently, their condition on discharge must have been due to service, the fact is that when they were being recruited in 1940, the medical authorities had to examine the thousands of men who were responding to the national call. They were, therefore, under considerable pressure, and, apart from that, had not the necessary equipment to carry out final tests. They had to rely on a general clinical examination with the result that many men who were actually suffering from disease were unavoidably passed medically fit. However, as far as tuberculosis is concerned, we are now making a genuine effort to deal with it in Section 12 of this Bill.

Section 14 concerns the extension of special allowances. The Act of 1943 dealt with the special problem of men and women who fought during Easter Week, 1916, and who are incapable of self-support by reason of age or permanent infirmity of mind or body. It has been urged that a case exists, though not, perhaps, with the same degree of urgency, for the extension of this allowance to all persons in receipt of pensions under the 1924 and 1934 Acts. If the allowance be extended from the 1916 category of pensioner to the general pre-Truce class, we shall have at some stage representations for the extension of the allowance to persons who can prove effective though not pensionable pre-Truce service.

For that reason, the Government has decided to deal with the whole problem now instead of doing so by stages and, in reaching that decision, they were influenced by the fact that under the 1924 Act the board of assessors reported membership even when there was no active service and, therefore, no pension; while under the 1934 Act, the Referee confined himself to the active service aspect exclusively, so that many members with good service but short of active service received no acknowledgment of the part they had rendered in the struggle. The Bill, therefore, in Section 14, provides that the allowance may be granted to any person incapable of self-support by reason of age or permanent infirmity of mind or body who has been awarded a medal for continued membership of three months ending on 11th July, 1921, of the various Forces set out in the 1932 Act. This proposal, therefore, may to a certain extent solve the problem often raised in this House of doing something for men who are incapable of self-support, and who are not in receipt of pensions although they may have rendered good service to the country in the struggle for independence.

Section 15 is intended to speed up the administration of the Acts. As the Acts stand at present, every application for a pension or gratuity, however unmeritorious it may appear, must be referred to the Army Pensions Board, unless it is obviously frivolous. This means that many claims which do not fall within that category but which, nevertheless, have not prima facie any chance of succeeding must be referred to the board, and this, in turn, involves travelling expenses of the claimants and cost of maintenance and investigation in hospital. In Section 10 of the Act of 1943, the Oireachtas empowered the Minister not to refer an application for an allowance to the board where he was of the opinion that the investigation by the board was not necessary for the purpose of enabling him to decide whether or not a grant should be made. All that is sought now is to extend similar powers to the Minister in claims for pensions and gratuities as distinct from dependents' allowances and the applicant will not be prejudiced by the proposal because, if he appeals, his case will be sent to the board.

From this brief outline of the principal features of the Bill, Senators can see that it is an enabling Bill in the truest sense of that term. It improves the conditions of those already in receipt of pensions, and it extends the pension code generally to persons hitherto not within its ambit. For that reason, I feel sure it will receive the approval of this House.

This is a kind of Bill which, as stated in the other House, might have been accompanied by a White Paper of explanation. It is a complicated Bill. As the Minister said, it is an enabling Bill—I think it could also be called an omnibus Bill. It deals with a great many different and diverse subjects coming under the general head of pensions, and it is what I might call a fantastic example of legislation by reference.

It would take a very skilled person an immense amount of time to follow really what this particular Bill means, and he would need to have copies of all the various Acts in his possession. The Minister, no doubt, has made a serious effort, and I give him full credit for it, to explain the meaning of every section, and I take it that his explanation is the correct explanation. For myself and the other ordinary members of the House, there is hardly any method of checking what the Minister says, so that acceptance of his explanation is an act of faith and I suppose the Minister would be flattered to hear me say that I am prepared to make that act of faith in him.

To get a full picture of every section of the Bill would require the looking up of a great many references, and that is very difficult for people who have something else to do. One wonders how the possible beneficiaries under the Bill are going to understand it themselves, but, as the Minister said in the other House, people who have any chance of obtaining benefits are usually very much alive to their position. However, the Minister is correct in his final statement that the Bill does extend the code to cover cases of hardship. For instance, on the 1943 Act, I raised the question of Section 4, where a married man with children was in no better position than a married man with no children at all if he suffered no disability. That is remedied to some extent in the present Bill. On the Committee Stage I would like to ask the Minister to define the position of a married man with children who opts for the 1943 Act and whether children born after he makes the option can be considered at all. But that is really a Committee point. Undoubtedly, the Bill is an improvement, but there are some things in it which, as usual now with every Bill, seem to give more power to the Minister.

With regard to Section 12, dealing with tuberculosis, I think that a number of people have died of tuberculosis on Army service. Perhaps the Minister will tell us on the Committee Stage what the position is. Under Section 14 he is now extending the provision very widely for 1916 men who are unable to make a living. Is not that so? It is a wide extension. Is it possible to make any calculation of how many people will now qualify for these pensions under Section 14 of this particular Bill? The trouble is that 1916 service is defined as mere membership of the forces. That means very little, if it means anything at all, and you may have a position that a man who gave considerable national service does not qualify, although he is unable to make a living, for membership of the forces for three months. The Minister may be confronted with still further demands.

Is it possible to make any calculation of the number involved? There may be many cases of people who gave service which cannot be defined as pensionable service. What kind of service is effective but not pensionable? I know, of course, that the code is difficult to understand in itself, but, in general, this Bill is a dreadful example of legislation by reference. Nevertheless, it is a desirable measure, and I recommend the Second Stage to the House. We might be able to elucidate certain matters on the Committee Stage. The Minister has certainly made an effort to meet the point which I raised in the 1943 Act.

I welcome the provisions of the Bill, particularly those in regard to pre-Truce men. We know that many Old I.R.A. men were in a very bad way—we even heard that some of them died in the Dublin Union. We had experience of men having to go to the county homes because they got no allowances. Old I.R.A. men were badly treated in connection with pensions and I think this measure will, in some way, compensate those who did not receive pensions. There is general dissatisfaction all round and I think it would have been better if some scheme of allowances had been adopted instead of pensions. Those of us who are associated with the Old I.R.A. are hearing complaints day after day about their condition. It is really a disgrace that Old I.R.A. men should receive such bad treatment. Many of them are men who are sick or otherwise unable to earn their living, and some of them are forced to end their days in the county homes. Therefore I welcome these allowances. The Old I.R.A. men to whom medals have been awarded can now be assured that they will be enabled to get this allowance of £78 for a single person, £97 for a married person, and £10 8s. for every child.

In any case, they can feel assured that they will not have to end their days in the Dublin Union or the county home. It all depends on how this measure is administered, and I hope that the Minister will administer it sympathetically, because, if it is going to be administered in the same manner as the previous pension schemes, there will be general dissatisfaction again. Now there will be certain people who will benefit from this scheme, but a number of the Old I.R.A. men have many grievances. One of these grievances was mentioned by a Senator who spoke a moment ago, and that was that when these men—many of whom are in receipt of very small pensions—go to sign on at the labour exchanges, they find themselves subject to a means test of the very small pensions which they have. Very often they find that they are not entitled to unemployment assistance, or that they cannot get work in connection with certain employment schemes. Even in the case of old age pensions, the means test was also applied because these men had a very small military service or disability pension. Under Section 14 of this measure, that difficulty will be got over, and persons, on reaching the age at which they are entitled to an old age pension, will feel assured that they will get the full old age pension in future, no matter what service or disability pension they may have. I think it is a pity that that was not done long ago. We all know of cases of people who gave good service to the nation in pre-Truce days, and who fell on evil days afterwards and had to apply for home assistance, and I think that that was a disgrace to our country. If it were not for those people who gave service to the nation in pre-Truce days, we would not have the liberty in this country that we have to-day. For these reasons, I welcome what is being done under Section 14.

Senator Hayes has described this measure as an omnibus Bill, but I am rather dissatisfied that it is not sufficiently embracing. It is a Bill to extend and amend all the other pensions Acts, and therefore, so far as the heading goes, it gives very wide scope to the Minister. For that reason, I thought that there would be certain improvements that, I find, are lacking. As Senator Smyth has said, there has been a great deal of disappointment all over the country in regard to the manner in which the previous Acts have been administered. It is the construing of these Acts that has caused the great trouble. For instance, if a man had service in 1916 and very little service during the succeeding years, that qualified him for a pension in respect of the succeeding periods as well as in respect of the period of 1916, but if he was not a 1916 man—and very often the men who fought subsequently were too young to be "out" in 1916—it was almost impossible for that man to get a pension in respect of any subsequent period, because it was held that such a person should have devoted the whole of his time to Army service before he could qualify for a pension. First of all, they had the great difficulty of proving that they were on active service. There were cases of men who went to a certain place to which they were ordered to go, under the command of an officer. In one case that I know of in my part of the country, they met some members of the R.I.C., who fired on them, and on whom they fired back, but it was held that the distance some of them were from the R.I.C. was too far for them to be hit; in other words, that they were not within sufficient range of the guns to be hit, and therefore they did not come under the definition of "active service". I think it was held that some of the men who were in advance were near enough to qualify as being on active service, but that the men who were somewhat behind them were not near enough, and therefore could not be held to be on active service on that particular day.

Is that a fact?

Yes, Senator, it is a fact. There were other cases in County Galway that I could give to the House. There was one case, for instance, where two men were posted out in the backyard of a house, while the fighting was going on in the front, and I understand that it was held that they were not on active service.

I think, Senator, that these matters could more properly be discussed on a Military Service Pensions Bill rather than on this Bill.

But does not this Bill, Sir, deal with all these other Acts?

Not with the military service pensions cases.

Well, I thought that a clause might be put in enabling such people as the widows and children of pensioners to derive benefit.

That does not come within the ambit of this Bill.

I thought it could come within the heading of the Bill.

I do not think so, Senator.

Well, Sir, I hope that Section 14 can be construed sufficiently well to enable certain people, who have not got pensions at the moment, to get pensions. I know of cases where some of the best men in an area got no pensions, whereas other people, who were not so well qualified, did get pensions. There were cases of people who went into the Army after the Truce and got pensions, and there were other people who had pre-Truce service who got no pensions or very small pensions, and I hope that there will be a levelling up in that regard.

The most serious cause of complaint down the country with the Old I.R.A. at the moment is that they have not got the justice they deserve. They claim, and rightly so, that they have been brought up here to Dublin to go before the board and be examined by eminent doctors here, and then, after some weeks, have been informed, that whatever physical disability or unfitness they were suffering from, and which they had contracted from 1916 onwards, was not due to their service in the national cause. I think I am right in saying that the Minister has pointed out this evening that from now on there will be local medical men to examine these people and report to the board here in Dublin. That would be an advantage to them, and it would help to clear up some cases that I, personally, know are serious cases.

I propose to refer to one case, and, if necessary, am prepared to verify the details. As a matter of fact, I did so some years ago. This was an ambush that took place at Clones railway station. The man that I speak of was badly wounded there. He is unable to do any work at present. Not only that, but after the ambush he had to clear out of the country and lost his home. He appeared here in Dublin. Unfortunately for him, General O'Duffy, who was the commanding officer on the occasion of the ambush, died a month before this man appeared in Dublin in connection with his case. But General O'Duffy had agreed with the statement that this man was in the ambush. As I have said, he has got nothing. I think that, in the case of men who lost their homes and who were in the movement from 1916 onwards, they should get a small pension or a gratuity. I do not mean to say that fellows who went out and did nothing except hoist flags and run through the country—men who were never in an ambush and never endangered their lives—should expect to get pensions from the Government. In the case, however, of men on whose behalf evidence could be given on oath that they did render service to the country, they should be entitled to pensions. There cannot be very many of them in the Twenty-Six Counties to-day. I submit that, to grant pensions to them, would clear the air to a great extent, and would show appreciation of the services which they rendered to their country. Such an appreciation on the part of the Government would also be welcomed by their children in later times.

I have been asked to try to get some satisfaction from the Minister as regards a sergeant in the National Army. He joined in 1938 at the age of 19 and died in 1943. The death certificate shows that he died of tubercular meningitis. His mother was dependent on him. I would like to know from the Minister, so that I may be able to satisfy his people as well as the relatives of others, if his case and similar cases are covered by Section 7 of the Bill?

I would like to join with the other members who have extended a welcome to this Bill. It is one of the long series of Pensions Bills which have been passed into law over a period of more than 20 years. It was, I think, in 1923 that the first Army Pensions Bill was passed into law. I think that this Bill marks a decided advance on the position that has existed, up to the present, in relation to disablement claims. But, while saying that, I want to address myself primarily to the things that are not in the Bill and which, in my opinion, need attention. I would, first of all, refer to the fact that there seems to be no provision in any of our legislation which enables the payment of a pension to be made to a soldier who was discharged medically unfit at any time between 1924 and 1939—that is over a period of 15 years. There is no legislation at all covering disability cases. I do not know whether they are numerous or not. I suppose I could find out, if I asked some member of the other House to put down a Parliamentary Question, but as I take it that the Minister himself is quite sympathetic it is not necessary, I am sure, to make a cast-iron case to him. It is only necessary to draw his attention to the feeling that these cases require attention.

Another matter that has been worrying me is this: the case of a soldier discharged as a result of wounds who may marry subsequent to his discharge. As I understand it, the position in his case is that he cannot get a marriage pension. He has been discharged as a single man and, on becoming entitled to a pension, he gets a single man's pension. If he marries subsequently, no addition to his pension is payable in respect of his wife or of his family, in the event of there being a family. I think that is a bad principle to write into our legislation. The State, of course, may say that it is finished with him as a soldier when he is discharged from the Army, and that, if he enters into a new contract subsequently, that is his own look out.

In effect, that means that he must look out for himself, and that he must not marry unless he is prepared to expose his wife and his family, if there is a family, to hardship. I do not think that we ought to do that without full consideration. I think that the matter cannot be brushed aside lightly by saying: "Well, he has finished in the Army, and if he marries that is a matter for himself and for his wife." I hope that the Minister, when replying, will deal fully with this matter, and tell us whether or not there is an obligation on the State to increase a pension in respect of a man who marries after he leaves the Army with a pension.

I want now to come to what is probably the kernel of the discussion in relation to the present Bill, and that is the manner in which pensions are awarded. In the first place, it seems to me that the authority responsible for deciding these matters, whether it is the Minister or whoever it is, acts in a most harsh, and, in certain cases, I would suggest, in an unscrupulous way. I want to say at once that a considerable volume of information was furnished to me during the past week or two in relation to the administration of Army pension matters. I am select ing from the evidence submitted to me 30 cases for special perusal. I do not propose to ask the House to listen to the details of these 30 cases, but I will ask the House to give me permission to refer to some of them, so that Senators may know what soldiers think of the manner in which our Army pensions legislation is being administered. I do not propose to give any names, but if the information is required I can supply it. The first case I take is that of a soldier whose home address is at Moate. He served in the Defence Forces for 14 years and 94 days. He was discharged on the 21st December, 1939. On his discharge from the Army, he was immediately committed to a mental hospital. That is to say, he was committed in December, 1939. His sister made application for a pension in May, 1940. She was informed by the Department of Defence that she could not make an application on behalf of her brother: that it could only be made by the soldier himself.

I am told by a lawyer that that is a bad law, that a man in a mental hospital is presumed not to be capable of discharging his ordinary functions, and that the application by his sister might have been a good application. This man was in the mental hospital for three and a half years. After his discharge from the hospital, he applied for a pension, and this is the reply he received: "The Minister has no discretionary power to accept a late application, and, in the circumstances, it is regretted that no action is possible in the matter." His sister could not make an application while he was in the mental hospital and, when he is discharged from the hospital, his application is refused on the ground that it is late. Again, I am told by a lawyer that time does not run against an insane person. I am not a lawyer and I am not in the position to say whether that is so or not, but that is the advice I have received. I am quoting only one case in respect of this type of application—a case in which, in my opinion, a person has been treated in a harsh and unconscionable manner by the Department.

I want to deal with a point which arises in many of those cases. That is as to the person on whom the onus of proof lies. The case I have before me is that of a man who, after service of 20 years and 188 days, was discharged from the Army as medically unfit, on the 30th September, 1944. The information I have shows that he was a corporal in the Army School of Music and that he was discharged as unfit for Army service because of the excessive blowing of a wind instrument. That is the reason given for his discharge but, when he applies for a pension, this is the reply he receives:—"It has not been established that the disability from which he suffers is attributable to his services in the Defence Forces during the emergency period." I do not know what that means. Does it mean that this man has not been able to satisfy the Department or the Pensions Board, or whomsoever is the deciding authority, that his disability is due to Army service or does it mean that, while he has satisfied the authorities that his disability is due to Army service, he has not satisfied them that it has occured during the emergency period?

He was playing in the School of Music up to 30th September, 1944. I take it that he was physically fit up to that date. It seems to me to be a reasonable assumption, therefore, that he became unfit during the emergency period. I want note to be taken of the manner in which this State seems to evade its liabilities when it comes to dealing with men who have served in its armed forces. That is a rather strange thing, because, in most other countries, the State usually treats its army men generously, in relation to its treatment of other persons. Senator Sir John Keane says that that is not always so. It has been my experience that, in the main, soldiers are treated more generously than other sections of the community. I use the word "generously", relatively and not in the strict sense.

I now come to another type of cases —that of a man who enlisted on the 10th November, 1930, and who was discharged on the 21st April, 1943, as medically unfit for Army service. My information concerning this man was not supplied by the man himself. It was supplied by a person who had been endeavouring to secure, on his behalf, payment of a pension. The information given me is that the soldier in question was transferred to the Reserve on the 28th October, 1942. He was recalled to permanent service in the Army, when the emergency arose, on the 3rd September, 1939. During that time the weather was bad, and the tents were letting in water. He was sleeping in pools of water every night and his health broke down. In February, 1943, his health had completely broken down and he was sent to Finner Camp emergency hospital. Later, in February, he was admitted to Rialto Hospital. His health was then very bad. After two months—on the 16th April, 1943—he was sent back to Finner Camp, where he was discharged. He has been suffering from bronchitis since. The person who supplied this information to me has seen this man. He is himself an old soldier, and he told me that this man was a physical wreck. However, when he applied for a pension, this was the reply received: "The degree of your disablement does not reach the minimum required by the Act for the award of pensions—namely 50 per cent. in cases such as yours." Yet, the man is a physical wreck.

I do not want to go into a large number of cases, but I want to refer to a particular case which seems to me to draw attention to what amounts to criminal neglect on the part of those administering the Army Pensions Acts. I refer to the case of a young man who was discharged from the Army suffering from tuberculosis on the 18th March, 1943, who received the first payment in respect of pension on the 9th February, 1945, and who was dead within two weeks afterwards. This was the case of a young man who contracted tuberculosis in the Army. He was discharged from the Army and applied for a pension. For some reason the medical people responsible do not appear to have examined this case, or if they did, were unable to reach a decision. This boy's mother is heartbroken. She lives in a tenement house in Dublin. To provide nourishment for her son, she sold or pawned everything in her room. Finally she came to see a gentleman, who happens to be a friend of mine. She asked him if anything could be done in the matter. He said that he would see what could be done. He saw the boy in his own home, which was in a state of desolation. Practically everything in the place had disappeared. He immediately got into contact with somebody —in the Department of Defence, I presume. Next day two doctors visited the house and had the boy removed to Rialto Hospital. Then the pensions authorities decided that he was entitled to 100 per cent. disability pension—£2 2s. per week. Perhaps the best thing I can do is read the letter written to me in the matter by the gentleman in question, who, I may say, is an ex-soldier:

"This soldier applied for a pension, but the board did not visit him until his mother called to me, when I took the matter up on his behalf and the board visited him in his home in January, 1945."

You will bear with me when I remind you that the date of his discharge from the Army was the 7th March, 1943. The letter goes on:

"He was immediately transferred to Rialto Hospital and on the 29th January, 1945, I received notification that he was awarded a pension of £2 2s. a week from the date of his discharge. I handed him over the sum of £202 12s. 9d. on the 9th February, 1945, and he died in the same month. This boy required food and medicines but owing to the condition of the family it was impossible for them to buy everything he needed although his mother disposed of everything she could and made every endeavour to obtain essential foods and medicines for him. Had he received his pension within a reasonable time of discharge he would have been able to buy proper foods and medicines and it is quite likely he would be alive to-day. I feel that where a soldier is discharged medically unfit a preliminary decision ought to be taken by the Medical Board who examine him as to whether or not his disability is due to service and that in any event until a final decision on the matter is reached he should be retained in the Army service and under medical treatment."

There is another point which I think is of importance concerning the case of men sent to hospital who appear not to get pay or pension in certain cases. I am not familiar with the circumstances in which that event occurs but I shall read this final paragraph from the letter from which I have quoted already:

"As I pointed out, we have the unfortunate position of two discharged soldiers from the same street or, perhaps, the same house, one joining the British Army and one joining the Irish Army about the same time and both being discharged medically unfit with tuberculosis. Both reach the same sanatorium. The British soldier receives a weekly payment of £2 or £3 while the Irish soldier has not even the price of cigarettes. No wonder the Army is finding such difficulty in obtaining soldiers for the post-emergency Army."

I do not want to stress these cases unduly. I want to point out that what I have done is to go through three or four communications made to me. The total number of cases actually handed to me is 35. I do not propose to go over the details of the whole 35 but I was informed by the gentleman who handed over the details of these cases to me that he himself had handled over 80 cases and the same kind of complaint runs through all of them. Men are told that it has not been established that the disability from which they suffer is attributable to service in the Defence Forces during the emergency period, although it seems very obvious from the statements of facts submitted to me that it could be attributable to nothing else. I have here cases of men injured and contracting disease, men working in bogs, suffering from colds, chest trouble, and finally discharged from the Army suffering from tuberculosis and being told when they apply for a pension that it has not been established that the disability from which they suffered is attributable to service in the Defence Forces during the emergency period. I suggest there is an obligation on this House to have these facts investigated. The question concerns hundreds of men who, in a healthy condition and in a spirit of enthusiasm, joined the Defence Forces in 1939 and in 1940. They are now invalided, in some cases crippled— crippled from rheumatism—in other cases dying from tuberculosis, and being told by the authorities concerned that it has not been established that their disease is attributable to service in the Defence Forces during the emergency.

There is not much use in bringing a Bill of this kind into this House and passing it into law unless there is an assurance, when it becomes law, the Bill is going to secure that its terms are applied to the men concerned in the spirit in which we consider the Bill here. I want an assurance from the Minister that the type of case to which I have drawn attention will be investigated and that some steps will be taken to ensure that there will be not merely a just interpretation of the regulations and statutes, but that there will be an interpretation which will be generous in application to a man suffering from disease or disablement after leaving the Army. I have made an inquiry as to the reason why it takes two years to "board" a case, as I understand the expression is, where a man suffering from tuberculosis makes a claim.

I am told that one of the difficulties is that the Army authorities have been quarrelling with the doctors in regard to questions of pay. If that is the position I think the Minister should take the matter up with the Department of Finance—because I suppose it is a question of finance—and insist that there is proper staffing of the Medical Board and of the organisation responsible for the assessing and payment of pensions and that the men doing the job are qualified men, even if good salaries must be paid to get qualified men.

I deem it my duty to congratulate the Minister on the very good attempt he has made to meet the reasonable demands of all reasonable people for the services they have rendered to the State. Although like my friend, Senator Hayes, I do not profess that I have grasped the terms of the Bill in their entirety, owing to the many references to other measures that have to be made, I think it is apparent to everybody with a grievance, both ex-Army men and ex-I.R.A. men, that a new day is dawning for them and that every opportunity will be given them to ventilate grievances about which we have heard so much. Of course it is quite true that in the Army, as in civilian life, there are bound to be some disappointments. It cannot be said that most people in the Army have tuberculosis or that all those who have tuberculosis in the Army contracted the disease there. We have people in civil life contracting tuberculosis and dying of it, and the difficulty in regard to ex-soldiers is to determine how far Army service was responsible for the disease. Some of these soldiers might have already contracted the disease before joining the Army. I have in mind one particular case but I do not know whether it will come within the ambit of this Bill. It is the case of a young soldier who joined the Army about 1940 and whose mother was a widow.

He contracted the dread disease and was sent to St. Bricin's Hospital in 1944. In St. Bricin's Hospital it was decided that his case was so hopeless that treatment was useless. He expressed a wish to go home, just to die. He was sent home to his mother, a widow whose only means of support was a widow's pension, and he died within a fortnight of arriving in Ennis. The difficulty was that as the law stood, the Army could make no provision for his burial, and those who were good enough to see that he got a proper burial were left with their bills unpaid.

I took the matter up with the Minister's Department and although they were very sympathetic, it was pointed out to me they could not do anything about it. I was referred to the Army Benevolent Fund who very kindly contributed a small sum, about £5, or about 25 per cent. of the cost. Then the widow got some little gratuity since—I do not know what it represented, but I know it did not represent the cost of the funeral. I hope there is something in this Bill to deal with cases like that. I am perfectly sure it is the one heartbreak of this widow that she has had to leave the expenses of the burial of her only son unpaid as they cannot be met by local or State funds. If it is not already embodied in this Bill, the Minister should find some way of meeting cases like that. I am not quite aware how the Army was precluded from meeting the expense, but there was some formality, and I hope this Bill will remove it.

It is very fair to say that it is agreed up and down the country that this Bill is a welcome measure, notwithstanding the grievances which Senator Duffy has put before the House and which I accept as correct. I think, however, that it is generally accepted that the Army now in the process of being demobilised is being treated as well as any other army in Europe.

I wish to congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill. It is an honest effort, I believe, to open the door which had shut out many people in the past. The Minister has been honest and generous and I believe that he is doing his best to open the door to everybody who should be in receipt of a pension or gratuity. I think the House should congratulate him on his efforts in that direction.

Mr. S. Johnston

I rise to extend my congratulations to the Minister and I welcome this Bill, particularly for the help which Section 14 will give in respect of pre-Truce service. I may say that I had a number of inquiries, some from men in sanatoria, since this was first mentioned. They are looking forward and I think rightly so, to the provision which will be made for them at a later time and married men with families are also anxious to have some provision made for them.

There is one case which I would like to put before the Minister to ask whether it is covered completely in this Bill. It is a case of an I.R.A. man who served in the National Army in 1922 and who got a gratuity under the 1927 Act on his discharge. He did not apply for a pension because his wound was not giving him very much trouble, and did not stop him from working until later. When he did apply under the 1937 Act he found that his application was too late. Without giving the name of the man concerned, I would like the Minister to look into it to ensure that he is covered. I have a letter dated July 4, 1942, from the Private Secretary to the Parliamentary Secretary—I will give the name as Mr. X:—

"The Minister for Defence desires me to refer to the recent representations of the Parliamentary Secretary relative to the claim under the Army Pensions Acts by Mr. X, County Monaghan, and to say that Mr. X was awarded a gratuity of £50 in July, 1928, as a result of his claim under the Army Pensions Acts 1923-1927, in respect of bullet wound, right arm. The latest date prescribed by the Acts for the reconsideration of cases such as this was 1st June, 1938, i.e., 12 months after the passing of the Army Pensions Act, 1937.

"The Minister has no discretionary power to accept an application after the expiration of the statutory time limit and he regrets, therefore, that Mr. X's application for reconsideration cannot be accepted under existing Army pensions legislation."

I would like the Minister to look into the case I have mentioned to ensure that it is included in this Bill.

The Minister to conclude.

The discussion has been reasonably generous on this Bill with the exception of the matters referred to by Senator Duffy. I do not think there should be much difficulty about replying to the discussion. Senator Hayes seemed to have some difficulty in respect of the differentiation between active service and effective service. I think that anyone who is conversant with the manner in which the Army Pensions Board have been dealing with pensions will have a resonably clear idea of what the meaning of these two descriptions is. I do not propose to discuss decisions of the Military Service Board whatever, not do I propose to discuss how they arrived at what is active service and what is effective service, but as far as this section to which the Deputy has referred is concerned, effective service will be decided by the Military Service Board in the same way that active service will be decided. That is, it will be based on the evidence of the witnesses who will appear on behalf of the applicants.

For instance, if the witnesses who will appear on behalf of the applicant for a pension cannot prove to the Referee and his board that the particular individual concerned is entitled to an active service pension then they can be resonably assured he is entitled to a medal which will bring him within the terms of this particular section of the Act. Membership of the forces is all that is required in order to secure a medal, and if membership of the forces is proved, then the individual comes within the scope of this particular section, so that effective service is service, I should say, in the forces.

There were other points which Senator Hayes said he desires to raise on the Committee Stage and perhaps it would be easier to answer them on that Stage. Senator Smyth referred to the particular section which brings relief to many of the old section of the volunteers. Men who did not come within the scope of the original section in the 1943 Act now come within the scope of this.

Large numbers of men have been unable to prove active service, but, as I said a moment ago, there was no doubt whatever in respect of their service. Now, as a result of this section, large numbers of these men will secure relief in their old age, to the extent of £78 per year in the case of a single man and £97 10s. 0d. in the case of a married man. That will at least ensure, as Senator Smyth remarked, that there will be no necessity for any of these men having to spend the rest of their days in county homes.

I am afraid that Senator O'Dea was mixing up the Military Service Pensions Act with the Army Pensions Act, which we are discussing here, and therefore I do not wish to go into the points which he was raising in respect of an individual who was firing a gun discharged at such a distance that he was regarded as being out of range of his target, or something of that kind. Now, Senator Duffy did make references and read certain statements, without giving us any facts in regard to these statements. Statements, as the Senator himself knows, are not facts, and when the Senator spoke of a man resigning from the Forces in 1940, he must not have been aware that the particular Bill which eventually brought relief to this man's parents, if not to himself, was not passed until late in 1943. Now, I think—and I hope I am not misinterpreting the Senator—that the Senator referred to the board in a manner that I do not think he should have. I think he used the word "unscrupulous", if I am not misinterpreting him.

Not to the board, but to whatever authorities are responsible for ousting a man out of a pension, because his sister could not apply for it, and he could not apply for it at the time, as he was in a mental hospital.

I suggest that it was just a case of criminal negligence.

Well, there is only one body that can deal with that matter, and that is a statutory body, known as the Army Pensions Board. It is composed of two medical men who can, and I presume will, deal with all these matters in a human and Christian manner, and there is a civilian chairman. It is very easy to make statements which seem, on the face of them, to give a very bad picture from the point of view of the manner in which the Department is dealing with such cases, but I should like the Senator to produce to me the documents which he read out to the House, and in connection with which he did not give us any names.

I should like to say that, although I did not give any names, I was quite prepared to give the names and the numbers, if asked. I have them here, and am prepared to give them to the Minister.

Yes. Well, I would be very anxious to have them, because it is very desirable that that sort of thing, if it should have happened, should be brought to my attention. My own opinion about the matter is that in the earlier stages there was a large amount of delay, due, no doubt, to the very large number of applications which were made. It was for that reason that I eventually brought in that system which I mentioned in the course of my opening statement, where I appointed medical officers all over the country, the idea behind that being that these medical officers would deal with the applicants locally, rather than that they should be brought up to Dublin in small numbers and over a very long period. The result of that was that we reduced what was a very large list to a very small list, and I think that at the present moment there are less than 300 cases to be dealt with, and they can be dealt with very quickly and efficiently. Of course, these cases are continually coming in.

I should like to say, however, that there is a vast amount of exaggeration in respect of certain applications, especially where the applicants have failed to secure the results they desired. I suppose I am not exaggerating when I say that we receive in the Department cases by the hundred; but every one of these cases is investigated. In some cases we find that there are certain grounds for complaint, but in other cases we find that there are gross exaggerations and that the decisions arrived at are decisions which cannot be changed. Now, it must be remembered that we also have to work within the terms of the Act. The Senator himself knows that. We are definitely prescribed by the particular Act under which we are working, and if a disease is attributable to service and can be proved to be attributable to service, then there is hardly any doubt that the person concerned will be brought within the scope of the Act; but if the medical board, after a very careful examination, find that the disease is not attributable to service, such a case will not come within the scope of the Act. There are large numbers of cases of disease which are not attributable to service. There are many types of organic disease which have nothing whatever to do with the type of work that a soldier carries out—diseases that men working in ordinary civilian employment could suffer or die from in the same way.

In that connection, would the Minister like to say something about the point I raised, as to who is to prove whether the disease is attributable or non-attributable to Army service?

In that respect, I should say that there is a very careful scrutiny, and if there is any doubt, there are investigating officers who go out and make certain inquiries. For instance, before we brought in this particular section that we are now bringing in—Section 12, which will bring relief to a large number of men; that is, the aggravation clause—there were large numbers of men in the Army suffering from tuberculosis, which had nothing whatever to do with their Army service.

Now that may seem an extraordinary statement, but the fact is, as I mentioned in my opening statement, that thousands of men applied for admission to the Army. We had something like 60,000 men in the Army during the emergency, and I suppose of that number not more than 50,000 were examined. It stands to reason, therefore, that it was not possible to give that type of examination to those men that a peace-time army official would have given. For instance, we had not the equipment. In fact, the examination was merely a clinical examination. There was no X-ray or other examination. The result, therefore, was that large numbers of men not only came in with a latent form of tuberculosis but came in with other types of organic diseases. They might, perhaps, have been affected by diseases of the heart. The fact, however, is that these types of cases did creep in. When it came to examining them from the point of view of a claim, the Army medical authorities when examining these claims looked up the history of the individuals concerned. They had at their disposal the medical records of hospitals and other methods by which they found out the history of the individuals concerned. In that way they were able to prove, what Senator Duffy seems to think would be very difficult to prove, namely, whether the disease was or was not attributable to service. There were cases in which I interested myself because of the fact that they were brought to my notice by particular individuals. I promised to have them looked up, and I can assure the House that the individuals concerned would have died at almost precisely the time they did if they had never been in the Army. That may or may not be an exaggeration, but my own feeling is that Army service did, in fact, aggravate, to a reasonable extent, certain types of diseases. Within the scope of this measure we hope to be able to deal in a reasonable way with all these cases.

I would be very greateful to Senator Duffy if he were to follow up his speech here to-day by action with me. I am not going to say that the first case which the Senator described could not happen, but I would be rather surprised if it took more than two years, which I think was the period the Senator suggested.

Almost two years.

The suggestion was that it took practically two years to have the case dealt with. I have found myself, on examination, that a large part of the delay that arose when dealing with a number of these cases was due very often, for one reason or another, to the unfortunate applicants themselves. From that point of view, I would like very much to get details of these cases, so that I would have an opportunity of examining them in order to satisfy myself and the Senator as well. I think that I have now dealt with most of the points that were raised. Obviously, some of the matters raised related to military service pensions. I do not think it would be desirable that I should deal with them under this Bill. The Referee and his board are there to deal with those cases. I have no function in respect of decisions arrived at by the Army Pensions Board any more than I have in respect of this particular board that we are now discussing.

I think that is all I have to say, except this: that I would be very grateful to the House if it would consider giving me all stages of this Bill to-day. My first reason for saying that is that there is an operative date in this Bill, and it is from that operative date that men will begin to benefit. Since I introduced the Bill, I have been approached by numerous officers in the Old Dublin Brigade in respect of the cases of certain old men, of men who have passed the 70 mark, and who, by reason of that fact alone, will come within the terms of this Bill. I understand that a man who has reached the age of 70 years will be regarded as being incapable of self-support, and will, therefore, come within the scope of this measure. For that reason, the appeal that I am making to the House is to expedite the passing of the Bill as quickly as possible in order that these men may benefit. Another reason is this: if, by any chance, there should be delay we might not be able to secure the necessary finances by reason of the fact that the annual Estimates are about to be printed. We are anxious to get into the annual Estimates the sum of money which will be required to finance this particular Bill. Should we fail to do that, and be delayed for any reason, we may possibly miss the printing. If the House, in its wisdom, desires to delay the Bill in order to be able to consider it at a later stage, that is a matter for itself. I am merely making the appeal because of the pressure that has been put on me by people outside—that the men who will benefit under the Bill should benefit as quickly as possible.

The Minister did not make any reference to the case that I brought to his notice.

That case will be included if it can be proved to be attributable to military service. If there are other points, they can be raised on the Committee Stage of the Bill if the House is prepared to give it to me now.

Question put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the remaining stages of the Bill be taken now."

I had a feeling that we ought not to agree to take all stages of the Bill to-day. That was my original feeling, and for these reasons. I think it is wrong, on any occasion, to put all stages of a Bill through this House in one day. It was done, I remember, in the case of a particular Bill last year. May I say that many Senators regretted that afterwards because of matters that were raised in connection with the measure of which they had no knowledge when they were giving all stages of the Bill? However, I can see the case for urgency that has been made by the Minister in regard to this Bill. He mentioned that if he does not get the Bill immediately he may not be able to get the money required to finance it included in this year's Estimates. That is a very strong reason. Apart from that, the speech which the Minister has now made removes a lot of the doubt that I had in my mind. Nothing that we may do under the Bill will alter the situation that I have referred to. It is a matter entirely for administration. Once the Minister is disposed to look into the administration, I do not want to hold up the Bill, and for that reason I am not opposing the remaining stages being taken now.

It has always seemed to me that we should have a special procedure for Money Bills, whereby they would have only two stages. In practice, there are rarely more than two stages on those Bills. But, even in the case of a Money Bill, there should be an interval, if it could be managed at all, between the Second Stage and the Committee Stage, on the understanding that the Committee Stage would, in effect, be the last stage. The Minister made an appeal to have this Bill in all its stages passed to-day. I have no objection to that. Even before the Minister spoke, I had no objection to it. The Minister gave two reasons for his request. One was that he desires the operative date to be as early as possible. I think that we all agree as to that. The other reason he gave —that the Book of Estimates was being printed—escapes me. I do not understand it, because it is quite certain that this Bill will be passed into law, at the very latest, next Wednesday. Senator Duffy, for one reason, and I for another reason, agree that the Minister should have all the other stages of the Bill to-day, and that is sufficient for the Minister's purpose.

I want to protest against altering our procedure in this case. I do think that it is rather unfair pressure to put on members to say that, unless this course is taken, certain individuals will suffer. I do not feel that that sort of argument is fair in a Parliamentary Assembly and I am not in the least convinced as to the difficulty about getting the money into the Estimates. Surely there is not such a degree of pedantry in the Civil Service that, knowing that a Bill is about to become law, the necessary preliminaries cannot be taken—purely routine preliminaries—by making the necessary financial provision for its operation. I do not want to be the only person to object in this case, but I dislike this tendency to depart from the proper, deliberate, legislative procedure.

None of us approves of rushing Bills through the House, but this is not the first Bill which passed through all stages in this way. Senator Sir John Keane did not say a word about those other Bills. Although this question of asking for all stages may be serious, it is not sufficiently serious to demote the Minister to the rank of Parliamentary Secretary. I suggest that we leave him as he is. Senator Sir John Keane referred to him as the Parliamentary Secretary.

I do not think that he did.

Senator Sir John Keane and I have frequently opposed the rushing of legislation. In this case, we are more or less parlous, because of the Minister's statement regarding the operative section. To delay the coming into force of the Bill, might result in hardship to some of those affected by it and, because of that, I waive my objection to the taking of the remaining stages. It is not fair, however, for Senator Quirke to say that nobody raised any objection to this course on previous occasions. I think that the majority of the House, with the exception of those on Senator Quirke's benches, were opposed to that action. I have frequently opposed the taking of all stages on the same day.

I concluded my speech by saying that, if the House, in its wisdom, desired to delay this Bill for a week or so, I should have no objection. That is the position, so far as I am concerned. It is quite feasible to delay the Bill for a week but I am advised that the annual Estimates for 1946-7 are being printed and, unless this Bill passes before they are issued, a Supplementary Estimate will be necessary to provide for its operation. I mention that merely to aid the House in making up its mind. I am not asking the House to take the other stages now. In view of the statements made, I am quite prepared to wait for the Bill until next week. This is a noncontroversial Bill.

It has been accepted by everybody, including Senator Duffy, who merely brought matters of detail to my attention and did not discuss the question of whether the Bill should be amended or not. The Bill went through the Dáil in 35 minutes and I cannot see why the Seanad should not deal with the matter in as fair a manner as the Dáil. But I should not like members to think that I am rushing them. I am not. Statements have been made to me by members of the Old Dublin Brigade that several of these men may, even by the hastening of the operation of the Bill by one week, get a little more money than they are receiving. I do not want to force the House into taking any decision which it feels would not be in keeping with its dignity.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Shall we fix the Committee Stage for next Wednesday?

We are likely to have two important Bills next week—the Rent Restrictions Bill and the Harbours Bill. A number of people are concerned with the Harbours Bill, and Senators from Galway and Cork may take up a long time in dealing with it. I do not think that we should bring the Minister back to interfere with the liberty of members of the House in ventilating local grievances on the Harbours Bill. I think that we should give all stages of this Bill to-day.

If Senator Duffy's points on this Bill were such that they could be raised by way of recommendation on the Committee Stage, there would be a clear case for postponing the Committee Stage until next week. But Senator Duffy's points were points of administration and, since the Minister has met them in the only way he could do so, by saying that he would have them investigated, there is a case for giving the remaining stages to-day. I should like to join with Senator Foran in saying that Senator Quirke was quite unfair in saying that Senator Sir John Keane, for whom I hold no brief, did not object to all stages of other Bills being taken on the same day. Senator Sir John Keane's attitude on that matter has been consistent.

It is all very well to talk about political procedure and the jealousy with which we should guard that procedure but, having listened to the different speeches, I am convinced that the Minister is entitled to receive what he has asked for.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Committee Stage is being taken now.

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