At any rate, I am very sorry to see them departing so far from the complete line of orthodoxy. I suppose, however, that these Senators will make their explanation to the central authority of the brotherhood at some stage, and I hope that some of those visiting people will be able to give them a line on what is happening. However, I want to lay down this principle here, that where Parliament can define the limits within which the Administration should act, that should be done, and we have always attempted to do so.
The problem, however, is different where the Legislature is unable to determine the facts, either present or future, which the administrator must take into account, or where it is not agreed on the facts, and where it is necessary to allow a degree of discretion to the person responsible for the administration of the measure. In such circumstances, if necessary or desirable legislation is not to be unduly delayed or abandoned altogether, the device of authorising the administrator—the person responsible for the administration of the measure—to carry through the scheme by the making of Orders which would have the force of law is, in my view, desirable and is also fully in accordance with sound, democratic principles.
In almost every case, however, where in a measure of this kind it is proposed to give the Minister power to determine by Order the manner in which the administration of the measure concerned is to be carried out, we get proposals of the kind which Senator Hayes is now moving: a proposal that the power should be given to the administrator, with strings attached to it, so that, no matter what he determines, it may be annulled, not only in its entirety, but in a piece-meal kind of way. Now, I do not think that power to annul such an Order should be given to the Oireachtas, nor do I think it should be asked for by the Oireachtas, except where it can be shown that the power to make Orders can be exercised in a manner which would involve discrimination as between individuals. There are many different kinds of cases where power to make such Orders is given.
In the majority of cases, the idea behind the giving of such powers is to enable the Minister concerned to complete the scheme and carry it through and to give effect to the intentions of the Legislature, recognising the limitations on the ability of the Legislature in that regard. There are other cases where it is necessary to give the person administering the scheme a certain amount of discretion, where a certain power of discrimination must be allowed. I shall be dealing with a similar case in the next Bill that will come before us. I have put into that Bill sub-sections providing for possible annulment in relation to sections where the Minister was being given power, at his discretion, to remove members of a harbour authority and substitute commissioners for them in cases where, in his opinion, having received a report from competent authorities, the harbour authority were not doing their duty. In such cases, where the element of discretion comes in strongly, and where the Minister might be influenced by personal prejudices, I think the power to annul should be given, but where the question is one of making general rules applicable to general situations, I think the power to make Orders should be given absolutely. So long as it is a matter of general circumstances and general considerations and the Orders apply equally to all the people concerned, there is nothing contradictory to democratic principles or the Rule of Law in adopting such a device, and it operates to preserve the authority of the Minister in that sphere where it is important that his authority should not be in doubt.
Now, we find that Senator Hayes wants to give power to annul the Minister's Orders in three different cases. The first case is in regard to the dates to be laid down by the Minister on which certain provisions should come into operation. I do not think that should be done, nor do I think that it should be asked for by the Oireachtas. It is quite clear that the Minister cannot use that power to give effect to personal prejudices or predilections, of which the Seanad may not be aware. Whatever rules the Minister may make will apply, in general, to all circumstances and to all individuals, but if the Minister decides that a Bill should come into operation on a certain date, he must have documents printed, arrangements made, and so on, in relation to a particular date, and he cannot do that if there is a possibility that the Order may be annulled in the meantime. If that were the case, he would have to wait until the end of the prescribed period, whether the Seanad desired it or not, before he could sanction the printing and other arrangements, possibly involving heavy expenditure. The same thing applies in respect of Section 20 of the Principal Act. Again, it is a matter of whether the Minister can make general Orders which are applicable to general circumstances.
There can, in that case, be no possibility of discriminating between individuals. The only section for which the Senator can make a case is No. 5. In that instance, I have to admit the possibility that the Minister could use his powers so as to discriminate between individuals. I have made it clear that I do not intend that separate rules should be made to cover every description and type of case.
It is intended that there should be general rules, applicable in general circumstances, to all persons. As Senators will realise, it is necessary to have the powers of the Minister stated widely. If the Minister abuses his powers, the Oireachtas has its remedy. As I have said, we are anxious to get away from rigidity in this matter. If we provide for the possible annulment of these rules the tendency will be to maintain them unchanged for a longer period than might be desirable if the Minister had power to make them without tabling them.
Where Orders of that type must be submitted to the Oireachtas the tendency is to minimise the changes. It is not desired to come to the Oireachtas frequently with proposals to alter them. If I am pressed, I could not resist the suggestion contained in the amendment in relation to Section 5 but I would regard it as undesirable, because I think it would introduce an element of rigidity which the House would not wish. But, if it is pressed, I will accept it. However, I cannot agree with the proposal in relation to Section 2 of this Bill and of Section 20 of the Principal Act.