I forget exactly where I left off last night, but it may be no harm if I repeat just a few of the remarks I made in Irish before we adjourned. I expressed my gratitude to the Minister for having brought in this Bill and I expressed my satisfaction particularly at the wording of the title to the Bill, namely, "An Act to make better provision for the development, in the national interest, of the production, distribution and supply of turf in the State." I look upon the Bill as another milestone on the road to national economic regeneration. It is a far cry now to the time when the old Dáil appointed a commission to inquire into the fuel and power resources of the country. It is a far cry also to the publication of the very interesting report issued about 1919 by that commission. Various views have been expressed here with regard to the aims of the Bill. It is welcomed on all sides but I do not think any two people so far have agreed as to what they consider the main import of the Bill. Some look upon it as likely to secure for us a reasonable degree of independence in the matter of fuel and power supplies. Other speakers consider that its main value is that it will provide us with a considerable amount of land reclamation.
Some of the Senators who spoke were anxious that they should be given some idea of the extent of bogland in the country and consequently the extent of possible reclaimed land that will be made available as a result of the work of peat development schemes. To what extent the calculations of the commission to which I have referred require to be adjusted now in the light of experience I do not know, but they calculated that of lowland bogs alone we had well over 1,000,000 acres with an average depth of about 18 feet. They also calculated that there were approximately 1,250,000 acres of mountain bog, this area, I understand, averaging somewhere between four and five feet in depth. Some Senators consider that the Bill will be very valuable in that it will provide for a considerable outlet for labour. Clearly that is an aspect of the Bill which is of great importance. Other speakers referred to its possible value in the direction of drainage. Clearly, if the bogs are to be developed, there must be a considerable development of drainage in consequence. It is clear also that there will be a considerable amount of work in the transport industry as a result of the development of the bogs. It will not, I expect, be extra work; what will be carried in the way of turf will probably replace coal to a considerable extent. In any case it is clear, no matter what way Senators have viewed the Bill so far, they were agreed that the Bill is a most commendable one.
I understand from reading the Minister's speeches in the Dáil—I was sorry to have missed most of the speech here—that it will be possible, if this board gets a fair chance, and gets the co-operation to which it is entitled, to produce fuel of good quality and at a price that will compare favourably with that of coal. In the light of these statements and the experience gained by the Turf Board since its establishment, and from its own reports, I, for one, believe that there is a considerable basis for this contention. I believe that, given a fair chance, and given, above all, the willing support and full co-operation of the workers who will be engaged on this scheme, in regard to quality and in regard to price, we shall have very little to complain of as a result of the activities of this board.
At the same time I should like to say that even if the new company did not succeed in producing a fuel that would compare as favourably with imported coal as one would wish, both in regard to quality and price, I would not be unduly disturbed. There are cases, especially in countries situated such as we are, where certain industries would be most desirable, but, as compared with similar or comparable industries elsewhere, they may not be able to reach just the same state of efficiency. We have experience in this country of certain branches of agriculture having to be subsidised both directly and indirectly, and, in my view, wisely subsidised in the national interest. There is a number of such industries to my mind which, if needs be in the national interest must be maintained even if it means subsidising them either directly or indirectly. At the same time I do not agree on the whole that the subsidising of industries such as those I have in mind should be considered unwise or a loss. We should look on such subsidisation not as a loss but as an insurance, and if only on these grounds, I think it a most important recommendation on the part of the Minister that this company should be set up and should be allowed to develop to the fullest extent the State believes it possible and practicable to do it.
While referring to that particular matter, it occurs to me that this is an opportune time to express publicly our appreciation of what has been done by the Turf Development Board and by its officials and workers in the years that have passed. Its work undoubtedly could have been much more effective if it had not been for the silly opposition and indeed the silly obstruction with which it had to contend on occasions. Those of us who tried to see its work at close quarters have no hesitation in paying tribute in the fullest measure possible to what has been achieved.
While paying that tribute I cannot help thinking that a tribute is also due to so many people throughout the country who for years have had to contend with a fuel of a rather inferior quality. Those who rallied to the defence services are entitled to all the praise that we can give them, but I know of districts, very intensive tillage districts, where woodland scarcely exists, where owing to the efficiency of the farmers no dead wood remained in their fences, and these people had no source of fuel other than whatever turf was sent their way. I remember very vividly in those years seeing people, especially the women folk, struggling to try to prepare, not only the meals for their families, but trying to prepare mash and feed for stock, on some of the worst turf that I ever saw. I think these people deserve our gratitude. They may have complained, but I think it is quite true to say that their complaints were not of the carping, critical type. Their complaints took mainly the form of a wish for the return of the days when they would be able to get something better in the way of fuel than they had been getting. The board is entitled to all the praise we can give it and the officials are entitled to all the praise we can give them, but the people who bore so largely the brunt of the really bad fuel conditions and supplies are also entitled to our gratitude and we hope as a result of the activities of the company to be set up under this Bill, as well as of the easing of fuel restrictions elsewhere, that the lot of these people will be eased as one would wish to see it eased.
Coming to the Bill itself, we will be interested mainly in those sections which deal with research. To me, at any rate, that section is of special interest. Research will, I hope, be of two kinds. One will be in the nature of laboratory research directed towards the getting of new products and the better utilisation of whatever products the company may make available. In referring to that matter, it is right that we should pay a tribute to the work of the members of the old Dáil commission to which I have already referred, and one in particular, the late Professor Hugh Ryan, whose memory is so fittingly honoured in his own university each year. At the same time, we might remember that good work has also been done in some of our university colleges, in Cork by Professor O'Reilly and in Galway by Professor Dillon.
Laboratory research will be very important, but there is another type of research I hope will be availed of, and which I hope is covered somewhere in the Bill itself, and that is research in regard to organisation and production, not alone in the areas to be worked by the board itself directly, but in those areas we may now describe as non-machine areas. The research that has been done so far covers fuel and power. But we also know, as a result of the work of the scientists, that gases can be derived from peat, and that absorbents and waxes of great value can be produced, and that also slabs and boards of different kinds can be produced from peat.
The laboratories have shown that these can be produced, but what we are up against now is whether they can be produced on a commercial basis. With regard to the second aspect of research, that of organisation, I am greatly interested in it and I want to bring it particularly to the notice of the Minister. Does he contemplate that the board will take full and active participation in the development of the conditions of the industry in the non-machine areas? I hope that something will be done with regard to easing the conditions for those who have to win turf by hand in these areas. As Davis once said, the aim of the Young Irelanders was to ease the burden on the heavily laden. We, too, would like to see the burden eased as far as possible on those who have to work under difficult conditions in the areas to which I am referring. I think that from what I have said and from what I have tried to develop that it might be possible that bogeys or conveyors of some kind could be developed in order to have the turf drawn quickly from the bogs to the roadsides and loading banks.
One can realise in these days when people are trying to produce turf for commercial purposes, what a great strain and what a great amount of delay there is in trying to get turf from the turf banks on to the roads by means of donkeys. I wonder to what extent will the board consider whether caterpillar tractors of some kind might be made available to these areas under some co-operative system so as to enable the people to get their turf off the bogs on to the roads and banks where they usually stack it. I also think it should be possible to develop some kind of light loading plant that could be run along these bog roads so as to speed up the loading of turf on to the lorries and the carts.
When one goes along the docks both here and across the water and sees the variety of light movable cranes it occurs to one that it ought to be possible, given the goodwill and given interested people, to develop something much of the same kind that could be used in these non-machine areas. I wonder, too, whether it will be one of the functions of the board to consider the question of the transport of people to the bogs. I am very familiar with areas in the west—in Connemara—and also in County Limerick and elsewhere where people have to go very long distances at a period of the year when they cannot afford much time for work in the bog. I have had experience myself of starting out early in the morning to drive by horse and cart a distance of 14 miles, get on to the bog and with the same horse continue to draw turf all day. One can realise, when the narrow wheels of the ordinary farm cart cut down into the bog, sinking down almost to the boxes of the wheels, the tremendous strain and difficulty that exist for people trying to get their turf out.
I am aware that certain types of workers—county council workers—may be taken in lorries to the bogs, but I am also aware that county council lorries have refused, and I am sure quite properly so, according to the conditions laid down for them, to take people who are not county council workers to the bogs. One can realise that coming at the end of the season, at harvest time, when farmers and their families want to get their turf out and bring it home, the tremendous loss there is in having to travel that distance by horse and cart, work all day with an unsuitable vehicle, go back the same distance at night, and repeat that day after day until the work is complete. These may seem very small things and it may occur to people that it is stretching the word "research" too far to suggest that they should come under that heading and that they should be attended to by the new company.
In the interest of the industry as a whole I hope that if it is not a specific function of the new company it may be possible to provide them with the power to engage in research of the kind I mention and if not that some other organisation should be set up to inquire into aspects of the problem such as those I have mentioned and see whether something can be done in connection with them. I would like to see something on the matter of research being done in regard to the type of fires, the type of grate or stove, and the type of flue that would be most efficient for the burning of turf. In England, I think, they have come to the conclusion that the ordinary grates must go; the wastage is so great that they cannot afford them very much longer. To what extent can we improve on the type of heaters we have and to what extent are people to be encouraged to drop the old type of chimney and use stoves with flues running, as far as possible, through the house before they are brought to the outside? Although I have no complaint to make myself and I have been a turf burner for a long time I have very often received complaints that the burning of turf is leading to considerable chimney difficulties. In fact, within the last few days I have taken with me some samples of the deposits that are accumulating in chimneys. I have taken them up in the hope that the new company will investigate their properties, and see whether they can suggest something that might lead to their melting or that would bring about such conditions that this type of deposit would not accumulate in the chimneys. The modern flues, apparently, are not suitable for turf. I do not know whether some chemical might be added to the turf so as to prevent these accumulations but I think these are matters that come properly within the heading "research" and I hope that they will be examined by the new company.
I would like to say much more on these matters but I must forgo a good deal of the time I would like to take up. I want, however, to refer to one thing before I close and that is the question raised yesterday by Senator Kingsmill Moore. I am sorry he is not here at the moment. It seemed to me that yesterday in particular he was in a very cranky mood. He used rather strong language and congratulated himself and us that his language was not stronger. I hope, for the sake of the dignity of the House that he will restrain himself somewhat more in future and that he will not go even as far as he went yesterday.
I could not help feeling that on the last few occasions on which he spoke in the House he was suffering from Cork Street fever. He raised the question of these semi-State companies and the nominations by Ministers to the boards of these bodies. There are two types of people, as far as I can make out who have been nominated to these bodies. There are the civil servants. I wish that people who are going to argue against these nominations would be a little bit more specific than they usually are. There is a number of boards now, quite a big number, I think, each having Civil Service representatives on its directorate. These men, so far as I know, are men of very high education. They are men, as far as I can judge, of very high capacity; they are men who, in very difficult times, have proved themselves very capable administrators; they are men who, given the opportunity, prove to be very progressive. Who, among these men, would we say is incompetent, is not worthy of his place on these boards?
