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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Jul 1947

Vol. 34 No. 6

Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Order) Bill, 1947— ( Certified Money Bill ) —Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move the recommendation standing in my name:—

That the following sub-section be added to the section:—

(2) This Act shall remain in force until the 31st day of December, 1948, and shall then expire.

If Senators give a few minutes' thought to this recommendation, they will probably agree that it should be sent to the Dáil. This is a Bill to confirm an Emergency Imposition of Duties Order made on the 28th January last and which came into force on the 29th January, 1947, the following day. It imposes an ad valorem duty of 37½ per cent. on all kinds of combs, for use or for ornament, subject to the reservation that, if imported from countries of the British Empire, they will be subject only to a 25 per cent. duty.

There is in the Order the usual licencing provision, which is rather peculiarly worded. It says that the Minister may authorise "a particular person" to import combs without paying the duty. I do not know if the words "a particular person" have any special significance, but if so I object very strongly to any provision in an Act or Order that a Minister may authorise a particular person to import goods free of duty if every other importer must pay the duty. However, that is not the main purpose of the recommendation.

This Order was made under the authority of the Emergency Imposition of Duties Act, 1932. The word "Emergency" in this connotation has a meaning quite distinct from the usual meaning we associate with it in our present legislation. At present, we have Emergency Powers Orders made under an Act passed into law at the outbreak of the European war in 1939. That is a totally different connotation from that in the 1932 Act, which was passed seven years before the outbreak of the war. It is interesting to look at the 1932 Act. So long as I can remember, there has always been a short cut in Ireland for all our grievances. Resolutions used to be passed years ago, calling on the old Irish Party "to remedy our grievances by a one-clause Act." This is a one-clause Act. The only effective clause in it provides that the Execctive Council, may, if and when they think proper, do by Order all or any of the things set out in paragraphs (a) to (j) in the first sub-section of that section. The second sub-section provides that an Order made under sub-section (1) shall continue in force for eight months and shall then expire, unless in the meantime it is given statutory effect by an Act of the Oireachtas.

The purpose of this Bill is to give permanent statutory effect to this Order. It is interesting to go back to the origin of the 1932 Act. It was enacted on the 23rd July, 1932. A week earlier the British Government had imposed a tariff on cattle, dairy produce and agricultural produce imported into Britain from this country and our Bill was very largely retaliatory. The economy of the country was in jeopardy and the Government, in July, 1932, came to both Houses and asked for a measure to which there was no bounds, except the reservation I have just mentioned that they had to come back with their Order within eight months to get a confirming Bill if the Order were to live. When the Bill was going through both Houses very important statements were made concerning it, although reading the debates now one feels that the attention of Deputies and Senators was given very much more to the underlying motive than to the actual text of the Bill. Little was said about the Bill. A good deal was said in bitterness and anger about the things that led up to it. There were some statements made which indicate what was in the mind of the Government at the time and what influenced both Houses in giving their approval to the measure. Speaking in the Dáil on the 14th July, 1932, the then Minister for Finance, Mr. MacEntee, made the statement:—

"If another State seeks to interfere with our trade, to attack our industries, we shall defend them...."

Bear these words in mind—if somebody is attacking our industries, we will defend them—and this is the machinery, this is the instrument which was provided by the Oireaehtas for the defence of our industries in 1932. Obviously, it was not intended as a permanent measure. It was intended as a defensive measure in the midst of a crisis.

Speaking in the Seanad on the 18th July of that year, the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Mr. Connolly, a member of the House, made this statement:

"The clauses of this Bill give a considerable amount of power to the Executive to act, and to impose such tariffs as they may think it desirable to impose, in view of the economic position that will inevitably be created by opposition on the part of the British."

Again, note the grounds on which the enactment of the Bill was sought—in view, as the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs said, "of the economic position that will inevitably be created by opposition on the part of the British".

But the matter was put very much more clearly by Mr. MacEntee who, when replying to a question in the Dáil on the 15th July, said:

"It is not the desire of the Government that this Bill should remain in force one moment longer than is necessary."

There was an undertaking, and I think something similar was said in this House by the Taoiseauh in relation to the duration of the emergency legislation which was being enacted in 1932—"Give us this measure; give it to us urgently so that we can cope with this menace to our economy. Once that menace passes we can see whether we require this legislation or not."

The menace passed in 1938, nine years ago, and an agreement was made with the British, the very thing that was needed to get rid of the emergency legislation of 1932. The agreement was made. The British menace passed and the Act of 1932, automatically, should have been repealed or should have ceased to exist in 1938. But 15 years after this emergency legislation became law we are now presented with an Order made under that Act imposing a tariff on combs. It may not be a very important economic question whether or not there is a tariff on combs although I understand from the Minister's statement on the last occasion that £61,000 worth of these articles were imported last year, but what influenced me largely in putting down this recommendation was the fact that complaints had been made to me that this Order, made last January, is imposing undeserved hardship on a large section of the community. I am not entitled to make the case that the firm or firms making plastic combs in this country are charging unreasonable prices. I do not know whether they are or not.

No complaint has been made to me that the prices were unreasonable but the complaint has been made that the ordinary person who buys a fine comb wants an ivory comb and not a plastic comb and that the ivory comb is affected by this Order as well as the plastic comb although we do not make ivory combs and do not intend to make them. I have received figures from one firm of importers and it is very interesting to know how the tariff affects the ordinary people. The import price of an ivory comb is 1/-. The wholesale price would be 1/3 and the retail price 1/11. That refers to one particular comb of particular dimensions. The price will vary with the size. That refers to a particular comb which was on sale last January. When 25 per cent. is added, if the comb comes from Great Britain, that is, if it gets the Imperial preference, the import price becomes 1/3, the wholesale price 1/7, and the retail price 2/6, but if it comes from outside the Imperial circle, the tariff is 37½ per cent. which means an import price of 1/5, a wholesale price of 1/10 and a retail price of 2/9 for a comb which could have been imported into this country at 1/- last January.

There is a certain firm, in which I have no interest and about whose business I know nothing beyond the fact that some members of the company know me and wrote me a letter in ths matter but I should like to read for the House what the proprietor of this firm has said:—

"A firm in County Dublin is making very nice plastic combs and deserves the protection they received in the recent tax. The matter of importance, however, is that the customs demand a similar tax on the ivory tooth combs. These are not made in Éire. The above firm makes a substitute, but of all household items nothing will take the place of a real ivory comb. Dublin makers state in their own interest that the substitute is just as good as the ivory comb. Our experience of nearly half a century as importers of these items shows that there can be no substitute. Any housewife will confirm this. The imposition of a tax makes no difference to us. We simply levy the tax on the combs. If the tax is doubled we must still import, but the poorest person will still give any price for the ivory. It is in the interests of the latter that we ask you to have this tax abolished. The victims are chiefly the poorer classes, and, of course, they are not aware of the injustice done to them."

So that what actually is happening is that the Minister uses this 15 year old machinery to impose a tariff on combs. He is not keeping out the ivory comb—but he is making the poorest people pay 2/9 for an article for which they paid 1/11 last January. I suggest that this thing is entirely an outrage. I ask Senators to bear in mind that the next item on the Order Paper is a Bill which authorises the Minister for Health to make regulations which will have the effect of sending people to jail if they do not submit their children for school medical inspection. People are now to be made to pay 2/9 for a comb for which they paid 1/11 before this Order was made. I suggest to members of the House, irrespective of the side on which they sit, that this thing is an outrage. It is not protecting the plastic comb which is the only comb made in this country. Here is a wholesaler writing to me that he must go on buying the imported ivory comb because the public demand it. What is happening is that the public are just being asked to pay 10d. more than they would have to pay if there was no tariff put on the comb. The 10d. is divided between the Minister for Finance, the wholesaler, and the retailer.

I would urge strongly that this Bill be given a life of 17 months and that, at the end of the 17 months, the Order should lapse. I would prefer that it lapsed now. I am perfectly willing to say to the Minister that he can have it for 17 months. In that time he can reconsider the position. I hope that in the meantime the whole structure of the Act of 1932 is going to be examined. I think it is an abominable thing, 15 years after this emergency Act was passed into law, that it should still be used for the purpose of making emergency Orders in relation to all kinds of things. I suggest that if we retain this Act and operate it to make these emergency Orders that we are defeating the whole purpose of the Finance Act, of budgetary discussions and of everything else. What is the purpose of the Finance Act and of the legislation which the Minister for Finance brings in here annually if, four months before the Budget, a Minister can make an Order in his office automatically imposing a new duty on some imported articles which then becomes operative? There is no sense in having a Finance Act or in having the pretence of control by the Houses of the Oireachtas over revenue, expenditure and income if, at any time he likes, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or any other Minister, can sit down in his office and make an Order imposing a duty which may bring him in thousands or hundreds of thousands of pounds without having to consult anybody, and without having to come to either House of the Oireachtas until the thing has been in operation for eight months.

I am simply amazed to find Senator Duffy, or any man supposed to be a representative of labour interests here, taking the line that he-has taken in connection with this measure. Over the last ten or 15 years we have been arguing the question of protection here. Now and again we have found somebody to come and point out where the Government policy was wrong in connection with the protection of native industry, but I think this is about the first time that we have found a man who poses as the standard bearer of the labour cause in this House to do that.

That is an old one. Tell us something new.

It is something perfectly new to find a labour representative here denouncing the Government because it attempts to protect native industry.

Will the Senator tell me what native industry there is in ivory combs?

I will explain to the Senator if he will give me a quarter of the time that he took when speaking. The Senator comes along and elaborates on this question of ivory combs. I have heard of elephants' teeth and things of that kind, but Senator Duffy must know that the term ivory comb-is a trade name and that the comb is no more ivory than it is gold. If we were to take up the attitude that Senator Duffy suggests we should take in connection with this particular item then we could take exactly the same attitude with regard to practically every other article of Irish manufacture. Is Senator Duffy going to be consistent and say that if he can produce a wholesaler who says that the shoes that are manufactured in Clonmel or Dundalk are not meeting the requirements of his customers—that the customers are prepared to pay the price on the imported shoes whether they come from England, America or any other country—that we should follow his advice?

I believe that there are plenty of people in the country at the present time who do not bother very much about price and have got some kind of a bee in their bonnet for articles which are manufactured in America, England, China or Japan. They would be prepared to pay the price for them, because they will say that the article suits them better. But are we going to be parties to that kind of thing to the detriment of Irish industry and Irish workers?

We all know that you may find a small number of women in the country who will not buy Irish-made combs as long as they can get imported ones. Are we going to accommodate them to the point of allowing these combs in free of duty to the detriment, as I say, of Irish workers, and I say, deliberately, to the detriment of Irish workers? We have a factory here which has not been very long started. It happens to be in my own county. I would take the same line if it were in any other county, because it is the line that we have pursued here ever since the start of the drive for the development of Irish industry. Are we going to make it easy for some people to say to themselves: "There is something in this; we are familiar with this name, ivory combs, for a long time; there must be some good in them because our grandmothers used them."? They did, because they could get nothing else. Thank God, we have a Fianna Fáil Government now, and we have the situation whereby people can get practically anything they want in the way of Irish manufacture. If these articles are not quite as good as the imported articles I say that we should still protect Irish industries, no matter what Senator Duffy may say on the-matter.

I do not want to stress the personal note too strongly, but I do feel rather gratified that my opposition to the taking of all Stages of this Bill last week has brought forth the statement made by Senator Daffy which, may I say, has not been countered in any way by anything that Senator Quirke has said. It shows-however that this is a matter which merits debate and examination. I feel greatly gratified, too, that on this subject I have enlisted the support of such an able and industrious colleague as Senator Duffy. He has the ability and the industry to carry out research into past legislation, which I do not say I am incapable of, but which I am rather reluctant to do unless I have to do it; if I can get somebody else to do it so much the better. I do not want to widen this into a general debate on our whole tariff policy, but I do repeat, and I feel every justification for repeating, and Senator Duffy's statement affords that justification, that I regard this imposition of duties, largely in the dark, with the gravest suspicion and I shall continue to do it in spite of the histrionic patriotism and declamation in which Senator Quirke indulges.

I want only certain limited information with regard to this duty. I want to know if the provisions of the Bill that we passed about a year ago which enabled the Minister to draw up specifications with regard to home-manufactured articles, has been applied in the case of the output of these comb factories. If we put industries in a privileged position and secure them against outside competition and remove all the checks that habitually protect the public in the economy of free enterprise, we are entitled to know what quality of goods they are making. That is why I ask if this Bill to enable the Minister to impose specifications and to ensure to a certain extent a standard of quality in the case of home-manufactured articles has been applied in this case. I would not ask the Minister to say if it has been applied in every case, because he is not in charge of the Department. I gave notice, however, that I would ask him if it has been applied in this case.

Senator Duffy has shown, and Senator Quirke has reinforced the implications of his argument, that this sort of thing brings us down to a hair-shirt policy. I am not opposed to safeguards for the protection of any local industry. I am associated with local industries myself where the public is fully safeguarded. I am only asking if the public is safeguarded in a case like this, because it is against decent living that this hair-shirt restriction of variety in the use of the ordinary things of life should be imposed unless there is a strong case made for it. I have heard no case here. We are told that a certain class of comb is made with which to comb your hair. I suppose it will come.

It has got to be used, not in preference to others, but presumably under favoured conditions. If you want other combs, you must pay accordingly. Generally, I call that a hair-shirt policy. It is hard to deal with this in general terms. If before this industry was set up there had been something in the nature of a tariff commission inquiry, where the parties were heard and there had been an examination of the whole problem, it would be a different matter. In this case, in abuse of earlier legislation, which Senator Duffy showed was passed for a special purpose, this duty is imposed.

Arising out of the Minister's statement, I should like to ask what practical steps will be taken to ensure efficiency in this industry and to control prices. I am not making any suggestion that it is not highly efficient and does not work on a narrow margin of profit. But what actual steps does the Minister propose to take to ensure that it is efficient and that its profits are not more than would be reasonable in relation to the capital involved. We are entitled to know that in the case of a protected industry. That question would never be asked in a state of free competition; competition would supply the answer; but, where there is protection, we should know that. I ask the Minister to indicate, if he can, what protection the public is afforded in the case of this special industry against inefficiency and excessive profits. I also ask what steps the Minister has taken to ensure that the prices will be comparable to the prices of similar articles made in Great Britain. We have a High Commissioner in Great Britain and similar articles could be obtained. If, after examination, the articles are deemed to be similar, then the prices are more or less kept in line. Is something of that kind being done?

The Minister stated that there is every hope for an export trade but there was difficulty in getting import licences to certain countries. I am entitled to ask into what countries did we seek export and were refused import licences. The hope of export is one of the redeeming features of this high protection policy. If we are able to get export we are able to get output. If we are able to get output, we are able to use the latest machinery; we are able to get mass production methods; and we are then able to reduce prices. As export is hoped for and contemplated, I ask the Minister to say where we have found import difficulties.

Perhaps I may be allowed to say a few words before the Minister speaks in view of the statement of Senator Quirke, because I think the House should not discuss the matter in that atmosphere. There is no use in Senator Quirke coming along here and wrapping the green flag round him. That always makes one suspicious.

It is not a bad flag. It is just as good as the flag yon wrap around yourself.

It is a bit old fashioned.

It is not old fashioned.

It always makes one suspicious that there is something being hidden. I think there is something being hidden in this case. I made no aspersion on a tariff policy. I suggested that this was the wrong way to implement it, namely, under an Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act passed in 1932, which precludes the Houses of the Oireachtas from having a proper discussion such as they could have on a Finance Bill if tariffs were imposed in the ordinary way. I should like to see it done in a different way. I do not like this method. In regard to the Irish workers who are involved, I observe that Senator Quirke did not tell us how many workers were involved.

It does not matter if there were only two. The fact is that the factory in Nenagh has only been in production for a matter of weeks. Evidently, we must knock it on the head to oblige Senator Duffy.

There was only one factory in existence, the one in Dublin, when the tariff was put on. Apparently the method is to put the tariff on first and then start the factory. There was a factory started in Dublin before the tariff went on. The Minister's statement on the last occasion was that because of the large quantity of these commodities imported last year, which imperilled the Dublin factory, the tariff was put on. That is the case that was made. Might I point out —and I think it must weigh with any person who has an honest approach to the subject—that when we place a tariff, as we have, of 5d. on this article, the consumer is paying 10d.? The retail price of the article to which I refer, prior to January, was 11d. The present retail price is 2/9, but there is only 5d. duty in that.

They do not mind that.

The State is getting 5d. and the distributors are getting the other 5d.

Mr. Hawkins

Would the Senator make it quite clear that the combs to which he is referring now are imported combs and not those manufactured here, and that the prices of these combs have no relation to the prices of the combs manufactured here?

If the Senator had been listening, he would have heard me read a letter in which the importer said that the combs made in Dublin were selling at competitive prices—not even a suggestion of overcharging. The case being made by these people—and I want to remind Senator Hawkins that this is a firm in Galway, who are not dealing with wealthy people in Dublin; they are wholesalers who have been importing these articles for 50 years and selling them in hucksters' shops in Clifden, Oughterard, Tuam, Loughrea and all over the West of Ireland —is that the country woman who goes into the huckster shop still insists on buying the ivory comb; in other words, the comb they are importing. I have a further letter, from them, because I did not take this story at its face value —I pursued it—and their suggestion is that, if the duty were removed from all ivory combs costing less than 12/- per dozen, or 1/- each, it would meet the position of the public with small incomes and leave the better-quality article a luxury item.

Do not forget that these people in making the suggestion are working against their own interests, because the very fact that there is a duty on the comb makes it more expensive, and, if their rate of profit is still 25 per cent., there is a larger cash income because of the duty. But they are very decent people who are most anxious that the ordinary people who insist on having an ivory comb—and it is an ivory comb, with all respect to Senator Quirke—should get it at a reasonable price. They consider that combs at 1/- each should not be subject to duty and their contention all the time is that it will not interfere with the production of combs in the Irish factories. I want to get that established.

Does the Senator seriously suggest that any combs, except those in a museum or a jeweller's shop are actually made of ivory? I do not believe they are, and I should like to have it proved to me.

They might be sold by auction, too.

That is not the point at issue.

It is a very important point.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If the Senator were allowed to proceed, we would get through the business more quickly.

The point I am trying to make is that this kind of comb is demanded in the West of Ireland, in the rural districts and small towns, and the people will get it, whatever they pay for it. The fact that you put a tariff on it does not sell one Irish-made comb. The people will still pay the additional price for the imported article and all you are doing is collecting revenue from them, and giving the wholesalers and retailers a bigger profit.

Do not be too sure. There may be a 75 per cent. import duty.

That is another day's work. I am dealing with the particular Order before us. An extraordinary thing happened here on the previous occasion. Senator Hearne made a statement which punctures everything said by Senator Quirke now.

This House is nonpolitical and we can say what we like.

Thank God for that. On the previous occasion, Senator Hearne made the point that he saw combs being imported at ½d. each. A duty of 37½ per cent. will not bring this price up to 6d., which is the lowest priced comb made in plastic in Dublin or in England. I went to Woolworth's yesterday and the cheapest comb there is 9d., so that if Senator Hearne saw them being imported at ½d. each, behind this tariff wall, somebody has been making a fortune by putting the price up to 9d.

I suggest that Senator Quirke might take stock of the situation and instead of making these flippant speeches ought to get down seriously to the problem involved. There are really two problems involved in this—one, the importation of an article which the people insist on getting and which, so far as I can see, no tariff will keep out; and the other, the method of levying the duty, my suggestion being that, if we want to place a tariff on a particular commodity, it should be done in the Finance Act and not under an Emergency Imposition of Duties Order.

It is with considerable timidity that I stand up to face the new Duffy-Keane Party and my timidity is considerably increased by the danger that I might be thought to be on the same side as Senator Quirke, with whose remarks I equally disagree. It seems to me that this is much ado about extremely little. I do not think the issue of the method of applying the tariff arises here, but it is a fact that, since 1932, practically all tariffs have been imposed by this method and debated eight or nine months later. If you intend to encourage a local industry, be careful, before you put a tariff on, to see that it is not swamped by enormous imports. I cannot see any other method than a tariff which can be put on quickly. I do not think it is ideal and, for my part, I think there ought to be a tariff commission and an investigation after these emergency tariffs have been put on, but I do not believe for one moment that you can ever provide any kind of adequate protection on the principle of holding a public, or even a semi-public, inquiry first, because everybody in the trade would import and, if it is a small industry like combs, and conditions were normal, three or four years' supplies would be imported and the thing would be impossible.

Would it be possible, as in the case of a Budget, to control quantities before the tariff was contemplated?

Whether it is a tariff or a quota order, all I am saying is that I cannot see any way by which you can avoid dealing with it on the basis of the present practice. I am in favour of an inquiry. Some of these matters are not inquired into as well as they ought to be and I agree with Senator Sir John Keane in so far as he thinks that a statement such as that in the letter to Senator Duffy is something which should be inquired into. I completely disagree when he says it should be inquired into first. It could not be written until after the tariff was put on, because it could not have happened, and it is only with the experience you get in the first three to six months that it would be possible to have an inquiry.

When you come to this particular duty, I know very little about it. I imagine if all Senator Duffy wants is that all real, guaranteed ivory combs costing less than 1/- should come in free, the Minister could agree to it, because you cannot get one anywhere. What he presumably means is a fine-tooth comb. That has a special use and it is important for children. The Minister ought to find out if this new industry is providing a really suitable and adequate substitute, apart from the medical point of view, because it is really, in the first instance, a medical matter. If the Government are satisfied, then I do not think it matters very much if a certain number are imported and people are willing to pay the price. If they are not able to produce a suitable substitute, the Minister should introduce an amendment so as to make some provision for that useful article. The sum total is negligible from a retail business point of view, but it could be extremely important.

All that Senator Duffy is entitled to is an assurance that the Minister will satisy himself that the substitute is, from a medical point of view, satisfactory and, if it is not, he will take steps to see that importation is facilitated. From my knowledge, I have no doubt that the ordinary combs that are being made are reasonably good and I have not heard complaints of the price. I may say, incidentally, that I am rather surprised to see Senator Duffy falling into the quite common mistake that, because articles are at a certain price at Woolworth's, nobody else has them any cheaper. That is a complete fallacy. The Minister should see if the facts are as stated, but to say that we should cease to provide reasonable protection for an industry because a certain position exists seems to me to be absurd.

It is all very well to talk about exports. I happen to be connected with an industry that has exported for years and its only grievance is that it cannot get enough material to resume its export trade. The idea that you can start a new industry and, as Senator Sir John Keane seems to think, produce in large quantities and export, is the wrong way round. You have to start, to instal your machinery, and to produce in bulk and then gradually work up your export trade. There may be a case for not having tariffs. If you are to have tariffs and you wish to encourage smaller industries of this kind, there will have to be some machinery by which you will put on the tariff. If you put on the tariff too soon in the case of some industries, it might be unhealthy. You have to watch carefully, so that your smaller industries are not swamped. In such circumstances you have to act promptly, because without some such prompt action I do not see how it can be done.

I think Senator Douglas has explained the position satisfactorily and, taken as an answer to Senator Duffy, I do not know whether that Senator is quite satisfied. It is the easiest thing in the world to come here and make the allegation that there is overcharging and that Irish manufacturers are little better than gangsters.

That statement was not made.

I have not said that the Senator made that statement. We are accustomed to this kind of propaganda generally and, whether the Senator likes it or not, he will find himself placed in the company of those people who claim that a large number of Irish manufacturers are out simply to exploit the public. The fact that £64,000 worth of combs came into this country last year, according to the evidence supplied to me, as against some £10,000 or £12,000 worth pre-war, would seem to indicate that perhaps the importers of these combs are doing a pretty good business. We have to make up our minds whether we are going to stand by the importers or the manufacturers—whether, on the one hand, we will favour the interests of those who are in the distribution of the foreign product, a thing we have been up against all the time under this tariff policy, or, on the other hand, whether we will pursue the policy of giving employment here by providing the manufactured commodities for our own needs as far as possible. We cannot reverse engines.

We cannot do what Senator Duffy has suggested. Even for the first four months of the present year some £10,000 worth of combs was imported and, were it not that this duty was imposed early in the year, I believe that not alone would these industries not be making progress, but they would have to pay off their hands so far as this work is concerned and possibly have to close down. That was the position with which they were faced. I said on the Second Reading that the duty was imposed in the first instance in consideration of the fact that the combs to be produced here would be sold at prices not exceeding those for similar combs in Great Britain; also, that the manufacturers will have to maintain equal standards of efficiency in so far as these can be secured.

The Government have no intention —and the Minister for Industry and Commerce has frequently emphasised their position—of regarding the protection policy as a hothouse plant, as he described it early this year. They believe that in the initial stages protection must be given. It may be given by way of tariffs or by limiting imports, but, after a certain time, particularly with the opportunities that Irish manufacturers now have— they have had experience of the business and are not embarking in it for the first time—with the scarcity of goods that there is in the world, the scarcity of manufactured articles, the high prices they are fetching and the fact that demands cannot be satisfied, one would expect them to become reasonably efficient.

All these things were referred to by the Minister for Industry and Commerce some months ago in a speech in Waterford in which he emphasised that, except for the steps that have to be taken in the initial stages to set up an industry—he felt strongly and he was speaking with the full authority of the Government—after a certain period, with the opportunities that now present themselves, our manufacturers ought to be able to make themselves reasonably efficient as compared with manufacturers in countries similarly circumstanced.

The line that has been taken all along is that prices here should not exceed prices in Great Britain. The Minister emphasised that the cost of production here and our general standards of efficiency also should certainly not place us in an unfavourable position or leave our consumers open to be exploited by reason of the fact that our manufacturers were not prepared to have the same standards of efficiency as in Great Britain. An undertaking to that effect has been given and, if that undertaking is not observed, let somebody come along and make a complaint. There is a special branch in the Department of Industry and Commerce.

Neither the Tánaiste nor I can investigate this matter. Senator Duffy cannot investigate it. If consumers or distributors have a grievance with regard to price, let them make their complaints in the ordinary way. We cannot go into the question of prices here. Even if all the information were at the disposal of the Senator and myself we are not in a position, I suggest, to give judgment as to the merits of the case. You require a body like the officials of the Prices Branch, who are specially trained in this work and who have been in the habit of examining records and the accounts of these companies, to go into all these matters. I simply say that these undertakings have been given and if they are not carried out, the Prices Branch of the Department can go into this whole matter very carefully. According to the information I have here regarding prices, which I would make public were it not for the fact that there is only one company actually manufacturing at present——

What about the Nenagh company?

It has got into production only now. The retail prices would be very considerably under the prices that Senator Duffy has mentioned. Since the tariff was put on this company, as well as reducing prices in some cases, has certainly adhered to its promise to the Department not to increase prices above the English level. In addition, they have increased the range of their products. I am informed by the officers of the Department responsible for the administration of these matters that they are producing at least six types of the fine comb to which Senator Douglas alluded. I am informed that the articles are being produced in that variety and if they are a substitute, as we are told, for the imported article, I cannot understand why the importers will not change their policy and try to sell the Irish product, for a change, instead of trying to put Irish industrialists into the position of having to close down their business. Having invested many thousands of pounds to set up a very up-to-date industry, an industry that would be capable actually of developing an export trade, it would really be extraordinary, if we were to force such people to close down.

If, on the other hand, the argument is that they are not producing a type of comb to satisfy this particular need —I am informed they are—or if importers can make the case that the type of comb they want for their clients is not being produced, then let them go and make that case. Senator Duffy read out a letter but we cannot, in framing legislation of this kind, go on letters. If the Senator at least had given, as Senator Sir John Keane was kind enough to give, some notice of the matter, while there would not, it is true, have been very much time to investigate it, even at this stage in the legislation, if we found that there was substance in the statements made in the letter, the matter could be made the subject of inquiry by the Prices Branch. Alternatively, if the firm interested cannot get what they want, then they can make a case to the Minister to allow them to import the product in which they are interested. Presumably they will be able to show that they cannot get it here and the Minister, I am quite sure, will favourably consider their representations.

I do not think I need go into the point as to the particular legislation under which we are proceeding. As Senator Douglas pointed out, we have been working it now for years. Section 3 of the Emergency Imposition of Duties Act empowers the Government to revoke any Order previously made under the Act, if the Minister is satisfied, as in this case he would have to be, that a definite undertaking had been given to him. I should like to say, with reference to Senator Sir John Keane's discourse, that customs duties were suspended to a very large extent during the emergency. Some 90 of them were suspended. In addition, the operation of other protective duties on commodities in short supply is modified as circumstances justify by the grant of a duty free licence for specific consignments.

In the case of many commodities subject to protective duties, licences are issued freely. It may be said that for all practical purposes, therefore, these duties are suspended also. It amounts to a suspension of the duty. I have already emphasised that prices have not been increased in this particular case since the duties were imposed. The Prices Branch will look into the undertaking that has been given. They are in direct touch with this case and any facts that were brought out here, or are communicated to the Department will, of course, be sent along to the officers investigating these matters.

I think I might be permitted to refer to the statement made by Senator Sir John Keane, with regard to wireless sets, that the ink was scarcely dry on the Order imposing the duty on wireless sets when there was an increase in prices. I am informed that an increase was made in Britain in March last and this increase was followed by a similar increase here—roughly, an increase of £2 per set. The price of the £15 set was increased to 17 guineas. With regard to the other point Senator Sir John Keane mentioned, the countries which have refused import licences are Denmark and Britain, including—I do not know whether I should include it— Northern Ireland. In the case of Britain and Northern Ireland, the refusal was made verbally to persons who sought import licences supported by pro forma invoices received from the Irish manufacturer. The letters are on the file and I have read them. This is not, of course, a reflection on the products of the Irish company but simply means that, for reasons best known to themselves, the authorities in these countries were not prepared to give the necessary import facilities.

As regards the steps contemplated to ensure the efficiency of the industry, it would not be possible to deal with this matter of plastic combs under the Industrial Research and Standards Act of 1946. It is not considered that ths matter could be sent to the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards for a recommendation as to the formulation of a standard specification or for a test or analysis. There is such a great variety in types of combs for personal use or adornment, that it would be very difficult indeed to devise tests or analyses which would give us additional information beyond that which is available. As regards the durability of the article, we, I fear, can only depend on the public, if they find that an article which they have purchased is not up to the standard they expected to try to get a different article on the next occasion. Some of those articles made from plastic powders have been coming on the market in various degrees of quality and in great variety. It has been claimed for some of them that they are quite durable and will stand a good deal of hard treatment. Personally, I am of opinion that it is extremely difficult, as matters stand in the world to-day, to get combs which would not be easily breakable when subjected to pressure. The Department of Industry and Commerce are satisfied so far as plastic combs are concerned—if I may so describe them— that as regards quality, finish and price they are competitive with those which would be imported, and no complaint has reached the Minister since the duty was imposed in January last as to the quality of the article or the price charged by the manufacturers.

The Industrial Efficiency and Prices Bill has not yet been circulated. When the Tánaiste makes his appearance here in connection with that Bill—I hope I am not making things unduly troublesome for him in saying this— the Seanad will have greater scope and, perhaps, wider opportunities for going into many of the questions which I could see Senator Duffy and Senator Sir John Keane would like to raise.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is now 10 o'clock. Is it proposed to sit late in order to conclude this business?

Agreed to sit later than 10 o'clock.

I want to thank the Minister for the courteous way he dealt with the queries I raised. The Minister stated that the basis of the tariff policy is to help new industries to get on their feet and to establish themselves.

I know of no case in which an industry which enjoyed a high tariff for many years has had that tariff lowered. I may be wrong in that.

Many of them have been taken off completely.

I cannot give examples at the moment. This is a matter which has been receiving constant consideration. If the Senator refers to the speeches of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to manufacturers and industrialists and to the advice he has given them, he will see that the Government is doing everything possible to get them to appreciate their duties in this matter. Of course, we realise that private enterprise in this country may be lacking. Importing interests and the lack of an industrial tradition, to which Professor Lecky so frequently referred in his writings, may have brought about a condition in which we would not have the initiative which they have in countries with an industrial tradition. But there is a good deal more initiative now than there was previously.

There have been cases in which tariffs have been revised. I know of one, at least.

Were not some of the tariffs entirely removed recently?

The Minister would have saved himself a certain amount of trouble if he had adverted to the fact that I stated on three occasions that there was no suggestion, in relation to this case, of anything in the nature of over-charging. I read a letter from a firm which handles the products of the manufacturers concerned in which they stated that this firm was conducted on a competitive basis and deserved the protection it received. That was the case made by the firm. It is not the kind of firm the Minister appears to have in mind. I know members of the firm for many years. They have been Irish-Irelanders and Irish industrialists as long as I remember. That is their attitude to this day. They are handling the products of this firm. The difficulty is that their customers insist on getting something which must be imported. In the first four months of this year, notwithstanding a tariff of 37½ per cent., there were imports valued at £10,000. That shows the demand there is for this imported commodity, for which no Irish substitute can be had.

Surely the Senator does not expect us to accept as proof that the Irish consumer cannot get what he wants from Irish manufacturers the fact that importers, who have business connections with manufacturers elsewhere, import over £9,000 worth of stuff. The Senator does not expect us to believe that the fact that stuff is imported is proof that the Irish product is not good enough.

The imports in the first four months of 1947 were as great as the total imports in 1938, notwithstanding the tariff. This is not an instance in which the tariff had been taken off. The tariff is in operation and, notwithstanding that, the stuff is coming in. That proves, at least, that certain customers are prepared to pay an additional price for the imported article. Is not that as clear as daylight?

How long is the House to sit?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

No time has been fixed. At the present rate of progress, we shall go on until morning.

The Labour leader has backed a loser.

I do not usually back winners or losers. I am not making any case, and have not made any case, against a tariff on plastic combs. All the time I clung to one point. I shall give Senator Hawkins the letter from those people——

Mr. Hawkins

I know them all right.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The House must get on with the business.

These people have no desire to import. Would it not be as easy for them to buy in Dublin as across the water or in France? They point out that a certain class of people hanker after this commodity.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has made that statement four times already.

It has not been grasped by Senator Quirke yet. Surely, I could not be engaged in a more profitable task than in educating the Senator.

Standing Orders do not provide that it can be done in this way.

If the question of the price had been omitted, we should have saved ourselves this discussion, because price has nothing to do with the matter.

Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Hawkins

Senator Duffy has fallen into an error in connection with this question of the importation of combs. Those of us who have families know that, during the war, combs could not be procured outside the country and we were dependent on the limited number which were being manufactured here. It was quite natural to expect that people engaged in the importation of an article of that kind would, immediately there was an opportunuity of making purchases, place an order for as large a quantity as they could possibly get. The quantity of combs available at the present time bears no relation whatever to the question of whether the people in Connemara or in any other district wish to buy the Irish article as against the imported article. Those articles were imported because it was felt by the importers that there was a market here for them, and the importers, having these articles on their hands now, must make a case to get rid of them as well as they can.

The duty would affect those who are paying it.

Mr. Hawkins

We have the assurances of the Minister and of the manufacturers that the price of the manufactured article here will be no greater than that of a similar article manufactured in England.

And the importer confirms that.

Mr. Hawkins

Yes. The only trouble the importers have is that they, in their wisdom, did not foresee the possibility of the setting up of an Irish industry here to supply the wants of the Irish people and that, in the meantime, they had given an order for this consignment of goods.

Question put and agreed to.
Schedule and Title agreed to.
Bill reported without recommendation.
Bill received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.
The Seanad adjourned at 10.15 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 23rd July, 1917.
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