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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 1949

Vol. 36 No. 16

Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1949—Second and subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Fishery (Amendment) Bill is one of three which, in due course, will be submitted to the Oireachtas. The three Bills, if they receive the approval of Oireachtas Eireann, will, in effect, codify the whole fishery code into one Act; they will remove the existing anomalies which have grown up in the fishery code as the result of the fact that that code consists of a series of statutes dating from the earlier half of the 19th century down to to-day and it will also be a code of fishery law in which certain amendments have been made—and it is in regard to those amendments that the Bill which is now before the Seanad has to do.

This Bill consists of four Parts and a series of Schedules. Part I calls for no comment because it is mainly interpretation. Part II comprises two sections and the object of it is to simplify and clarify the law applying to the audit of accounts and procedure of boards of conservators. Reference should be made to the Second Schedule which sets out in detail the procedure which should regulate the audit of accounts of a board of conservators, and Section 6 takes statutory cognisance of a duty which, in practice, has always existed and the failure to discharge which has, on rare occasions —and could in the future, on rare occasions—created considerable difficulty. It becomes the duty of boards of conservators from time to time to pay out moneys or to do other acts and, as will inevitably happen with boards that do not consist of experts in the fishery law, in desiring to do the right thing, they sometimes do something which is not in conformity with their statutory duty. If a payment is made in those circumstances, when the auditor comes to audit the accounts surcharge falls to be made on the members who have been parties to the illegal payments. It is really part of the duty of the clerk, similarly as it is part of the duty of a clerk of a district justice, to be on the qui vive and to familiarise himself with the law relating to any payments which come up for consideration. He should warn the members of the boards of conservators if they are about by inadvertence illegally to make a payment or do an action.

Heretofore, although that duty was recognised, it had no statutory recognition. It was open to a clerk to sit back and evade his responsibility, record the proceedings and, if the members went wrong, to say "Let them go wrong". Section 6 here enables the clerk and directs him to object if the members of the body are about to do an illegal act. The only means whereby he can discharge himself personally from liability to surcharge is to satisfy the auditor that if an illegal act has been done he warned the members. Unless he can prove that he did warn the members he himself is liable. If he can prove that he warned them and that they did it in spite of the warning he frees himself from liability and the liability falls on the members who, having been warned, acted illegally. It is also his duty, analogous to the duty of the secretary of a local authority, to take a note of the members of a board of conservators who voted for a proposal and against it and of those who abstained.

Section 7 relates to the amendment of the law in relation to the fisheries rates. But for the fact that I am in a position to tell the Seanad that this Bill is one of three and that the purposes of the Bill will not be fully realised unless and until all three Bills have become Acts of Parliament, I should feel constrained to apologise for the format of Section 7, because it is a thoroughly bad example of legislation by reference. Inasmuch as it is only for the purpose of tidying up the situation with a view to producing ultimately a codifying Act which will set forth the whole law in one statute there clearly to be read, Senators will, I think, agree that in tidying up the short way is the best way as long as Senators have the guarantee that ultimately the law will be set out in permanent and comprehensible form.

Section 7 amends the section of the Fisheries Act of 1925 which inaugurated the present system of fisheries rates whereby boards of conservators are empowered to strike a rate on all fisheries in their respective districts which are rateable under the Valuation Acts. Every fishery liable to be rated by the conservators is exempt from liability to be assessed for rates by the local authority, and as a partial offset to the consequential losses to the local rates it is provided that where by reason of such exemption the rate collectible by a local authority has to be increased by more than 1d. there is recouped to such local authority from the Fisheries Vote the amount by which that increase exceeds 1d. in the £. Now as Senators will see, this is a reasonably complicated formula to grasp when it is first read out in that way. In practice, of course, it is well known to local authorities and boards of conservators and the calculation can readily be made. When the arrangement was first introduced the provision was that it would last for ten years. It was then extended for another two years by the Fisheries Act (No. 34) of 1935 and in 1937 a Fisheries Act passed in that year extended that arrangement for a further twelve years which carried it on to to-day. We now propose to extend that arrangement for a further 15 years. During the last 12 years the tendency of the Exchequer contribution has been to rise all the time. When the arrangement was first made I think the Exchequer contribution used to be in the order of £2,000. It has now gone to £11,200 but we anticipate, as I am sure Senators anticipate, that the rising trend of the rates has been arrested and we therefore hope that the liability of the Exchequer on this head will be stabilised at about £11,200. In that confident hope the Minister for Finance agrees to the continuation of the existing arrangement for another 15 years.

Part IV of the Bill deals with fines and forfeitures and shortly its purpose is this: fines and forfeitures arose down through the years out of a whole series of statutes with the result that a very complex procedure was attendant upon them and it was necessary for the district justice constantly to be on the qui vive to be sure under which Fisheries Act he was called upon to impose the penalty and what was the appropriate procedure for disposing of a fine which had been levied under that particular Act. There were various funds to which these fines were paid according to the Act under which they were imposed. We are seeking in this Bill to abolish that whole system of paying fines into specific funds and are seeking to provide that all fines will be paid into the Exchequer but that the Exchequer will be charged with the responsibility to pay out sums corresponding to what would have been payable if the funds created by the old statutes had continued to be the recipients of these fines. If, therefore, under one of these statutes one-third of a fine was payable into what used to be known as the Police Fund and is now known as the Garda Fund and two-thirds into the funds of the board of conservators, the fine will now be paid into the Exchequer and the Exchequer will pay out of Voted moneys a corresponding sum into the Garda Fund and a corresponding sum into the conservators' fund.

I want to make it clear to the Seanad that the purpose of these changes is to allow the courts dealing with these matters to proceed with the certainty that their orders are good and not subject to quashing because having imposed penalties they directed the monies to be paid into the Police Fund or to the board of conservators instead of the Estuaries Fisheries Fund or some other fund which in the special circumstances concerning individual cases the relevant statutes would require the moneys to be paid into. Now the district justice directs that the fine shall be paid into the Exchequer and the Minister has the duty to determine the way he shall direct the proceeds of that fine and that decision shall be taken at leisure and whatever that decision may be it does not call into question the validity of the decision of the court as to the destination to which the fine was to be orientated.

Heretofore, if a foreign trawler was found fishing within our territorial waters the district justice could impose a monetary penalty and he may or may not in his discretion confiscate the gear. This Bill proposes that on conviction of the offence of fishing within our territorial waters whatever fines the district justice may determine to be appropriate he has the mandatory duty to declare all gear confiscated.

Section 13 is for the purpose of making clear the meaning as we understand it, of Section 103 of the Act of 1942. A doubt has arisen as to whether a net of lawful design found on the banks of the river where netting is prohibited could be legally seized and forfeited without the apprehension of the owner or actual proof that an offence had been committed. Under the Act the forfeiture is proposed of a fishing engine which was believed to have been used or about to be used in an unlawful manner at the time of seizure.

Is a net a fishing engine?

I was going to direct the attention of the Seanad to that matter and in asking the Seanad to consider the next Bill I shall have to refer to these things. I shall ask the Seanad to take the view that all these methods of expressing the same thing are in fact identical.

Section 14 deals with the disposition of the proceeds of the sale of seized gear. Here again the difficulty arose that if an order confiscating the gear was valid and the order directing the sale was valid that unless the order directing the disposition of the proceeds to the appropriate fund was made it was possible to go to a higher court and have the order quashed. In this section we proposed to adopt the same procedure as in the case of the fines and to have the moneys paid into the Exchequer, whose obligations will be to see that the moneys are passed through the appropriate channels to their ultimate destination. Section 15, in fact, places on the Exchequer the obligations to which I have referred.

There are three Schedules to this Bill. To the Second Schedule I have already referred and it sets out the procedure of the boards of conservators. The Bill proposes a number of amendments. The first is repeal of the Fishery Act of 1925 and the Local Government Acts, 1941 and 1946, relating to the audits of the boards of conservators and which are replaced by the section and the Second Schedule to which I referred. I think I have just said that it repeals the whole of the Fisheries Act, but actually it repeals so much of the Act as relates to the procedure at the boards of conservators.

The Fisheries Acts of 1935 and 1937 are wholly repealed and they are the Acts to which I have referred. I had told the Seanad that we are extending the existing rating system for periods of ten and twelve years, respectively.

The enactments repealed in Part III of the First Schedule are enactments which heretofore governed the destination of fines, proceeds of the sales of forfeited gear, etc., and, as Senators will observe, there were seven such statutes, and under each of these statutes when a fine was being imposed it frequently presented a serious problem to the district justice. It is in order to simplify that position that we are repealing them and making the Exchequer the sole fund to which fines are to be paid. I do not think there are any further matters that I need mention at this stage and I feel the Seanad will realise that I am not unduly presumptuous in asking it to deal with these Bills in a rather more succinct way than they ordinarily would, because ultimately a codifying Bill will be introduced to the Seanad and will, I understand, be referred by it under the new procedure to a special committee for careful examination in the light of the certificate of the Attorney-General. These two Bills are really tidying up in preparation for the other enduring one and I think I am right in saying that, in effect, these two Bills will be repealed by that measure, but it is necessary to pass these two, in order that the third may be clearly and effectively enacted.

We accept the Minister's statement that this is more a tidying-up measure than anything else and we realise that we cannot on this Bill or on the other Bill which is to come before us discuss the fishing industry in general and whether it is nationalisation or otherwise of the industry, but there are one or two points I want to put to the Minister. I should like to know if it would be possible to extend the limit of our territorial waters by a mile. We have advanced very far now in the matter of shipping, and, while the three-mile limit might have been quite all right in ancient times, it is a drawback for our fishermen, particularly on the west coast.

I also want to draw the Minister's attention to the necessity for more supervision of our waters. We have had complaints from time to time, particularly in Galway, about the inroads being made by foreign trawlers to the disadvantage of our native fishing industry, and, if some more active and efficient service in regard to the patrolling and controlling of our waters could be provided, together with an extension of the three-mile limit, it would be very welcome. Otherwise, the Bill is one which can be better dealt with in Committee.

With regard to the three-mile limit, as I understand the situation, it is a matter of international agreement. A conference was held at The Hague about 1931 and certain nations wanted to fix 20 miles, while certain others wanted to fix 12 miles and others six miles, but the only minimum on which all could be found to agree was three miles. That, so far as I know, is the source of the existing universal acknowledgment of the three-mile limit. That agreement, however, was followed by a number of bilateral agreements between individual nations who exchanged undertakings to respect six miles or ten miles, as their specific treaty might provide. It has, from time to time, very understandably occurred to certain people that we should declare our right to certain territorial waters and assert it, but, when one comes down to tin tacks, one has to recollect that, on the high seas, the authority of the Garda Síochána is not admitted, and a nation is well advised not unilaterally to announce its intention of policing the seas further than its strong right arm can do against opposition. We have agreement with all nations to respect the three-mile limit and all foreign Governments will render their nationals liable to our prosecution, if it is established that they have offended our law as it relates to the three-mile limit. Outside that limit, if we wish to make a non-national trawler amenable to our law, we have to go out and bring him in.

I think the Senator will agree with me that it is a wise course never to stick one's neck out further than one is prepared to pull it in again. I agree that it would be a desirable thing if we could get a widely accepted agreement to extend the limit of territorial waters to six miles. Although we intend to develop the practice of our people to fish further from our own shores than has been the practice heretofore, we would be glad to exchange with other countries reciprocal agreements for a six-mile limit. At present there do not appear to be many takers. If and when there are, we shall be glad to do our part. Ad interim, we are in a position to assert our authority over the three-mile limit and not beyond.

The Senator also mentioned that within the three-mile limit protection did not seem to be adequate. With that view I have considerable sympathy, and I am happy to be in a position to give the Senator the kind of news that he and I would both desire to hear. One must first remember this, that a good many incidents which people who are not trained in these matters misinterpret as illegal fishing are not illegal fishing at all. A good many trawlers come in for protection from rough weather, and they are, of course, welcome. A good many come in with broken-down machinery or with their trawls caught in their propellers and they have to come into quiet waters to disentangle themselves. They, too, are welcome. Of all the occasions on which trawlers are seen close to our shores I should say that not 30 per cent. are cases of illegal fishing. Secondly, it was common knowledge to all of us who had anything to do with the matter, and particularly those familiar with sailing or travelling at sea, that, to the average landsman, to discern what three miles at sea is is not easy. He is quite likely to imagine, if he is standing at a height above the sea, that a boat which is, in fact, ten miles off land is only two miles. It is an error which it is extremely easy to make if men are not accustomed to allow for elevation and other matters which are very relevant when judging distances at sea.

But there are undoubtedly occasions when trawlers fish within our prohibited waters and, what is worse, when trawlers so engaged have been known quite ruthlessly to run down our fishermen and destroy their nets. I share the Senator's view entirely that, over and above the strict economics of providing protection, our fishermen are as much entitled to expect the enforcement of the law within our territorial waters as any other citizen is entitled to expect the enforcement of the law on the roads and highways of the country. I do not want to sound controversial, but the plain fact is that the naval equipment which we now have consists of motor torpedo boats and corvettes. The motor torpedo boats have magnificently powerful engines which sweep them through the ocean at incredible speeds, but the hulls of the torpedo boats are built to stand about 100 hours' sailing, because they are extremely light. They were originally designed for rapid incursion into naval battles and subsequent abandonment, having discharged their torpedoes. We are under the distressing obligation of not bringing them to sea at all, because if we bring them to sea on regular patrols they will shake themselves to pieces and ignominiously sink after a relatively short period of service.

We were blessed with corvettes, but, unhappily, no one seems to have adverted to the fact when buying the corvettes that they draw so much water that there are only about three ports in the whole country into which you could bring them, and, as they are Diesel-engined, if you want to keep them in use you must keep the engine continually running, since, apparently, if the engine gets cold it takes about three hours to get hot enough again to get in motion. But the engines consume Diesel oil at a parallel rate with an elephant's capacity for hay, so that if we are to keep the engines running awaiting the hour of summons, we might as well multiply the elephant population in the Zoo by about 20, as it would be a cheaper expedient.

Plans are now under examination to persuade some more prosperous sovereignty to purchase these vessels, provided that with the proceeds we see our way to secure for our naval service vessels more adaptable to our requirements. In judging the adaptability of vessels in the future, due regard should be had to the use we will expect to make of them for fishery patrol in times of peace. I hope that, before the end of this financial year, we shall have at our disposal fishery vessels sufficient to make available to any part of our coast an effective patrol within a very short time indeed of observers from the shore notifying the competent authority and asking that measures be taken to control any foreign trawler which seeks illegally to trawl within our waters.

Liam O Buachalla rose.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I had called on the Minister to conclude and he has done so.

Ar an abhar sin, ní bheidh cead ag Seanadóir ar bith labhairt ar an mBille anois.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Ní bheidh.

An raibh socrú deánta nach labhróch ach aon tSeanadóir amháin?

Ní raibh aon tsocrú déanta.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Ní raibh.

Ní raibh seans agam labhairt. D'éirigh an tAire díreach nuair a shuigh an Seanadóir Ó Háicín síos. Chím gurb aisteach an nós é, ach thuig mé ón nós sin go raibh socrú speisialta i dtaobh an Bhille seo.

Má theastaíonn ón Seanadóir labhairt anois, ní ceist ró-achranach í seo. Ní theastaíonn uaimse ná ó aoinne eile cosc a chur air.

Creidim gur féidir leis rud ar bith a rá le linn an choiste, nó ar an mBille eile. Is mar a chéile iad.

Bhí súil agam go mbeadh seans labhairt ar an mBille seo. Táim buíoch den tSeanadóir ach b'fhearr dúinn claí leis na rialacha. Ní miste liom fanacht go dtiocfaidh an Bille eile. Ba mhaith liom a rá go raibh ionadh orm nuair d'éirigh an tAire tar éis don tSeanadóir Ó Háicín suí.

Nár glaodh air?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Glaodh.

Tá seans ag an Seanadóir labhairt anois más maith leis.

An mbeidh cead agam an méid seo a rá? O tharla gur míthuiscint atá ann, b'fhearr liom gan labhairt anois i ndiaidh an Aire. Bheadh san i gcoinne na rialacha agus má tá sé ar intinn againn tosnú mar sin, ní bheadh a fhios againn cá stadfadh sé. Más mise atá thíos leis bíodh sé mar sin mar tá na rialacha ann.

Tá leigheas ag an Seanadóir ar an gcéad Bhille eile.

Question put and agreed to.

Would the Seanad consider taking the next stage now, or giving me all stages of this Bill now? Both Bills are purely preparatory to a consolidation measure, of which the Seanad itself will be the primary custodian.

Níl a fhios agam an bhfuíil an cheist seo socraithe leis an gCoiste Príbhléidí. Ar mo thaobh féin de, ní bheidh aon locht agam bheith réidh leis an mBille tráthnóna. Is dóigh liom go gcaithfidh an Bille teacht ar ais arís chugainn. Má tá aon ní uainn, ansin, is féidir linn é a rá ansin. Is trua nach isteach sa Dáil a tháinig sé an chéad uair. Thiocfadh sé ar ais anseo arís agus má tá aon rud le rá tig linn é a rá ansin.

Agreed to take the remaining stages to-day.

The Seanad went into Committee.

Sections 1 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 8.
Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill."

Ar mhiste leis an Aire cuntas a thabhairt dúinn ar an méid atá beartaithe aige faoi feabhas a chur ar chúrsaí iascaireachta go coiteanta? Tá trácht anseo aige ar "artificial propagation". Ba thrua nár thug sé cuntas dúinn faoi sin ar an Dara Céim.

If the Senator would look again at Part IV, he will find that Section 8 and the ensuing sections in that Part all relate to one matter, that is, the payment of all fines, forfeitures and proceeds of sale into the Exchequer, and their subsequent disbursement by the Exchequer to the destinations whither they would have gone had we not simplified the procedure as it is here proposed to do. There is no proposal envisaged here for development or extension of existing services. In fact, in drafting these two Bills we have sought carefully to avoid, if I may say so, any progressive step. Where amendment was necessary we have merely confined ourselves to corrections of what appeared to us to be faults. Where anomalies had arisen, in the next Bill we have sought to reconcile them. In the third Bill, we have sought to bring the fishery law up to the point where it is now. With that before us. I think it will become the duty, of the Minister for Fisheries to consider if any further progressive steps are required and, if they should be, to come before Oireachtas Éireann to that end; but there are no proposals in these Bills for any developmental step such as I think the Senator has in mind.

Níl a fhios agam ar thuig an tAire i gceart an rud atá ar intinn agam. Is léir ó Alt a hOcht go bhfuil sé de rún aige feabhas éigin a chur ar chúrsaí iascaireachta.

Sílim gurb é an Bille eile atá i gceist ag an Seanadóir.

Is fíor sin. Gabhaim pardún agat.

Does this create any new offences in regard to fishing for salmon trout?

None whatever.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 9 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 14 stand part of the Bill."

On this section the Minister might give the Seanad the benefit of his eloquence by explaining the advantages to be derived by owners. Will he forgive me if I ask him why oyster cultivators should not be given all these benefits?

I am happy to say that I am fairly well fraught with the means of providing Senators with a satisfactory answer. There is a saving clause in respect of Section 13 of the Oyster Cultivation Ireland Bill, 1884, whereby the court may direct that forfeiture imposed in respect of trespass on a licensed oyster fishery be paid to the licensee or grantee for the improvement and cultivation of the said fishery.

All the proceeds are directed to the Exchequer, with the corresponding obligation on the Exchequer to redirect them to the grantee. We have decided that in the uncommon case of a prosecution under the Act of 1884, where the penalty levied partakes of the nature of damage for trespass, that will continue to be the arrangement, and where the district justice declares a penalty, bearing in mind that it is for the benefit of the owner of the oyster fishery he will assess it on the damage done to the proprietor of the oyster fishery. I hope that meets the inquiry raised by the Senator and by others.

I am not at all convinced, but I am content to leave the matter to the Minister, whose judgment and that of his officials is better than mine.

On the question of the disposal in these cases, I know from experience on many occasions that when equipment was seized or when boats entered the harbour and an order was made for the disposal of the gear, it was put up for auction and there being only one bidder the original owner got it back for much less than if he had been fined.

I can assure the Senator that that fact has engaged my attention. We are reviewing the position where machines are put up for auction, so that these people should not be in a privileged position. If in fact, they get back the equipment at all they should only get it back by paying the full value. It is a matter I think that we need not provide for by statute. Senators can rest assured that the matter is under review and that steps are being taken to ensure that what amounts to a fictitious auction will not take place in future.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 15 agreed to.
Schedules 1, 2 and 3 and the Title agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining stages to-day.
Bill reported without amendment.
Bill received for final consideration and passed.
Ordered: That the Bill be returned to the Dáil.
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