Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Jul 1949

Vol. 36 No. 22

Appropriation Bill, 1949—Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 5, inclusive, and Schedule A agreed to.

Question proposed: "That Schedule B stand part of the Bill."

Mrs. Concannon

I should like to address some few remarks to the Minister arising out of Part III of Schedule B, under which provision is made for the salaries and expenses of the General Valuation and Boundary Survey. What the Minister has said concerning the revaluation of Galway coincides with our experience in Galway. It was undoubtedly the corporation that asked for a revaluation, and we got it with a vengeance. It is not very certain what criteria are adopted by the valuation authorities in increasing valuations, but, on inquiry, I was told that the letting value of a house or premises was generally the basis of the valuation. The Minister is aware that at the present moment, when there is such an acute scarcity of houses, the present letting value may have no proper relation towards the real value of a house and that the letting value will probably come down with the success of the housing drive. The valuation based on it will, I am afraid, however, remain. That is the question I want to put to the Minister: why should the valuation be based on what is a temporary and fictitious letting value?

I have spoken to the Minister of some very hard cases that have resulted from the Galway revaluation and I feel it my duty now to draw his attention to the most glaring case of all. It concerns the Poor Clares. We have in Galway a community which is the oldest but one in Ireland. It has a continuous history since 1642. It is necessary to explain the situation, so I hope, a Chathaoirligh, that you will allow me to give the background. Exactly 300 years ago, in 1649, the Corporation of Galway granted these nuns, who had arrived in Galway in 1642, an island in the Corrib known as Oilean Alltanach, on lease, I presume. It is an island no longer, but there is an old remembrance of it as an island. It is now called Nuns' Island. These nuns are strict Colettines. They live on alms; they exist on one meal a day and they get up in the middle of the night to recite the Divine Office. Every human austerity one can think of these nuns endure. Some time ago they got a rate demand for £300. It certainly could not be based on the letting value of their possessions. In fact, I do not know on what basis that £300 was arrived at, but if the nuns are forced to pay it I am afraid they will have to sell portion of this old property. It was about the time that Cromwell arrived in Drogheda that they first got possession of this island, but shortly afterwards when Galway fell to the Cromwellians they were driven out and, like many other dispossessed persons, they found refuge in Spain. After the Penal Days they went back in 1825 to their own place and they have been there since then, continuously living a life of prayer and sacrifice. Now we come along and ask for £300 a year from them. Where it is to come from I do not know. Perhaps the Minister could give some attention to the possibility of relieving from rates those communities who, by their rules, have to-live on alms and have no possessions except the house they live in, their grounds, and the garden which is essential to their existence.

With regard to Vote 10, I would ask the Minister to take into serious consideration a campaign of school building. I imagine that the proper way to finance that would be by a loan. Boyle Roche asked what posterity ever did for him. As we shall be building the schools for posterity, we might ask posterity, the children of the children who will attend these schools, to help to pay for them.

The Minister has already referred to the question of Galway Harbour. I want the Minister to consider applying some of the Marshall Aid to the development of Galway Harbour and other harbours perhaps. It would be well-spent money. We might avail ourselves not only of the loan of dollars but of the technical skill and equipment to be provided under the Marshall Plan for this purpose. It would be a great thing for the whole of Ireland if the magnificent Bay of Galway was given its full significance.

On Vote 73 I should like to refer to the Council of Europe. When it was decided to apply for membership of the United Nations Organisation this House was not consulted about the matter. The same thing happened when the Dáil unanimously voted that we should join the Council of Europe. When that motion was passed in the Dáil it was a great pity that only one protest was made and that was against what I might call the Sir Ronald Ross name of the State being used in the statute of the Council of Europe—"The Irish Republic"—instead of our historic and constitutional name, "Ireland", which is the one we like best, or the description in the Act which we passed in the spring, "The Republic of Ireland". It should have been either "Ireland" or "The Republic of Ireland". There was a protest made about that, but that was really only a small matter.

I should like to refer to what was a real cause of dismay in the preamble to the statute of the Council of Europe, which includes this paragraph:—

"Reaffirming their devotion to the spiritual and moral values which are the common heritage of their peoples and the true source of individual freedom, political liberty and the rule of law, principles which form the basis of all genuine democracy..."

What does that mean? If it means anything, it means Christianity. Why was not Christianity written boldly into that? It is very deplorable that we should be afraid to mention the name of Christianity. We understood from Senator Douglas that one of the main objects of the Council of Europe is to unite these free nations against the possibility of Communism. It is very striking and very deplorable that the States which made the greatest contribution to the fight against Communism—the Vatican State, Spain and Portugal—are not partners in the Council of Europe. These are things which perhaps do not come within the purview of this Bill, but it would be deplorable that one voice at least should not be raised in this Oireachtas to protest against the boycott of the word "Christianity" and of the most Christian nations in Europe.

Mr. Hawkins

I should like to say a few words with regard to Votes 29, 31, 55 and 68. Speaking on the Second Reading, I drew the Minister's attention to the differentiation in the price of eggs here and in England and I would now appeal to the Minister to bring the matter to the notice of the Minister for Agriculture, particularly in view of the fact that it was on his appeal farmers went into the production of increased poultry stocks and eggs. I have come across a number of people up and down the country who underwent tremendous expense in that way and now find that the market which they have for their produce is a very bad one. I suggest to the Minister that, in view of the increased price being given to the English producer, the Minister for Agriculture should reopen negotiations with the British Government with a view to getting an increased price for our poultry and eggs.

I should like also to draw his attention to the very serious position of our tanneries at present, which is due in no small way to the curtailment of our dead meat industry as a result of the failure of either the British Government of our Government to come to an agreement with regard to the export of canned meat.

In regard to Vote 31, which makes provision for sea and inland fisheries, I should like to have from the Minister some clarification of the position. Speaking at a recent meeting in Galway, the Minister for Lands stated that the Government were about to engage in a vast development of deep-sea fishing trawlers. That is entirely contradictory of and at variance with the policy outlined here by the Minister for Agriculture, who is also Minister for Fisheries. We should like to know which policy is going to be given effect to.

Vote 55 makes provision for the Department of Industry and Commerce. Speaking this evening in criticism of some statements I made, Senator Crosbie referred to the advice given by an officer of the European Recovery Programme and termed it "balderdash", just as the Minister for Agriculture in this House, when speaking of the advice given my Mr. Holmes, who was employed to advise our Government, remarked "Holmes be blowed". There is very little use in seeking advice and paying for it if we are not prepared to put some value on that advice and see if there is anything in it.

Senator McCrea, on behalf of the Labour Party, congratulated the Minister on making provision for the sale of white flour, additional sugar and tea. I am sure he will be pleased to know that an Order is to be made providing for a more elaborate sale of such commodities from Monday next. He can now go home consoled by the fact that that market is to be extended. In his closing remarks, Senator McCrea said the black market started under the Fianna Fáil Government. I should like to remind the Senator that, if we go through the records of the individuals and firms brought before the court for black-market dealings, we will find that there were more supporters of the Parties now on the Government Benches than there were of this Party, and that one of the very first actions of the present Government when they got into power was to remove all penalties inflicted on such people, because they recognised that many of them were their staunchest supporters.

Mr. M. Hayes

That is a slander on somebody else, but I am not quite sure on whom.

Mr. Hearne

It is true—a perfect defence.

Mr. M. Hayes

It is not true.

Mr. Hawkins

As Senator McCrea said at the end of his speech: "If one goes out looking for it, one gets it." Vote 68 makes provision for the Office of the Minister for Health. I know the hour is late, but yet, in view of the many statements that have been made inside and outside this House, I should like to have some information as to what moneys are now available from the Sweepstakes Fund. Can we be told what is the annual contribution made to the voluntary hospitals, how much is available for the building of hospitals, sanatoria and such institutions? Suggestions were made at different times that the moneys have been there for many years and that they have not been expended yet. On the other hand, answers given to questions in the Dáil would appear to be contrary to statements made outside.

Professor O'Brien

In relation to Vote 26 for the universities, I wish, publicly, to thank the Minister on behalf of the graduates of the National University for the way in which he met my remarks on this subject. I feel very gratified at what the Minister said. I always knew that, during his tenure as Minister for Finance, the value of the services of our university to the country would be recognised. I know now that they are going to be recognised soon.

Miss Pearse

In regard to Vote 55, the Minister may have misunderstood what I said. My remarks were not directed to people who want to buy the new flour. If they want to buy it, let them buy it. What I referred to was the Compulsory Order made relating to confectionery and to what one may call small bread which is so much bought by poor people. All confectionery and small bread must be made of white flour. That is the provision in the Compulsory Order, and that is what I objected to. There is no doubt whatever that it is compulsory to use all white flour for these purposes. You cannot get a cake now that is not made of the white flour. That applies in the Dáil restaurant. The rolls that used to be sold there for 2d. now cost 4d. and that is because they must be made of this new white flour.

Mr. McGilligan

I think that was a very good move. I wish it were 5d. I do not think I should be expected, at this stage, to reply to the nonsense we have had to listen to from Senator Hawkins. One thing passed through my mind which certainly was not investigated before. It was, that I certainly often heard the suggestion made that a lot of Fianna Fáil people who had gone to the black market were not prosecuted because the prosecutions were stopped in the office. Well, we can get that examined.

Question put and agreed to.

Schedule B and Title agreed to.

Question—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

Mr. Hawkins

I suggest that the Bill be not returned to the Dáil. I do so for the purpose of giving the Minister for Finance an opportunity of carrying out the investigations that he has promised, and for the following reasons: that the Seanad holds that this Bill, together with the demands that are being made on the local authorities, are, as was stated on the Second Reading, placing too heavy a burden on our people, and, further, because the Minister has failed to give us any indication of the steps that are being taken to end unemployment or to ease our emigration problem. We must bear this in mind, that when the present Government took office in February 1948 this was a creditor nation. It is now a debtor nation, and from what I can see we propose to go deeper and deeper into debt without making any provision as to how these debts are to be paid. We see that additional charges are being placed on our shoulders. We have seen the announcement made that the Electricity Supply Board charges are to be increased.

Mr. McGilligan

You have not.

Mr. Hawkins

And that——

Mr. McGilligan

No announcement to that effect has been made. Why say that sort of thing when it is not right?

Mr. Hawkins

We will see many announcements over the week-end.

Mr. McGilligan

Yes. You will announce that as a fact when it is untrue to say it. Does the habit persist?

Mr. Hawkins

In view of the warning contained in the statement made by the Minister in Donegal we expected, and the country generally expected, that he would have given us a greater clarification of that statement than we had from him this evening. I would like to say to those on the Government Benches who, from time to time, accuse the Opposition, both here and in the other House, of obstruction that we are as much interested in the success of any schemes for the development of this country as they are, because we fully recognise and realise that, at the first opportunity the people get, Fianna Fáil will be back in power to give effect to those schemes. Therefore, we are interested in the success of those schemes to an even greater extent than the Government Parties are.

Mr. McGilligan

I do not know whether it is seriously put forth that in 1948 this was a creditor nation and that it is now a debtor nation. How does the Senator arrive at that conclusion? To say that in 1948 we were a creditor nation and that we are now a debtor nation is the hallmark of dishonesty. It marks all that the Senator has said in his closing address. I would scruple to treat with a man of that type. The statement is completely untrue.

Mr. Hawkins

Will the Minister not admit that we are in debt in regard to the amount we borrowed under Marshall Aid?

Mr. McGilligan

Is that what you mean by a debtor nation? Go home and take a lesson over the week-end about debtor nations.

Question put and agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 10.10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 12th October, 1949.