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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Dec 1950

Vol. 39 No. 4

Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1950—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a second time."

Senators will appreciate that when I was introducing this measure in the Dáil I gave rather a full account of the origins and of the present position of vocational education in this country, as it has developed. I appreciate that the Seanad would probably like to have a wide discussion on a matter that is so important, touching as it does the economic and social life of our country in so many varied and constructive ways. Because of that, I regret particularly to be in the Seanad with this measure on, shall I say, Christmas Eve. I realise the difficulties the Seanad labours under at the end of sessions such as this.

I should like, however, to impress upon the members of the Seanad that this is a simple measure. If it is desired to discuss either the general aspect or any particular aspect of vocational education and its development, the discussion could suitably take place some time in the early part of the coming year, on a motion. A discussion on a motion might be as satisfactory for Seanad purposes as a discussion on the Second Reading of this particular Bill.

I think that perhaps the important thing is to treat this Bill as a machinery measure. I endeavoured to get this Bill through the Oireachtas earlier, but it was prevented by certain matters. The reason why I ask the Seanad to give me the Bill as a whole now is that normally, during the month of November, the various vocational education committees review their programme for the subsequent financial year and make up the estimate which ultimately becomes their demand, when it has had the approval of the Department of Education, on the rating body. The Department of Education examine their programme and their estimate so as to give the local vocational education committee approval of their schemes and their estimate about the 15th January. At the same time, we send the committee what is tantamount to a demand note on the county council. This particular measure is required by 11 different committees in order that they will be able to get from the local rating body the necessary amount of money to carry out their programme for the coming year. Out of 28 committees, about 11 are at present at their maximum—and the maximum amount of money, under the older legislation, which they are able to get would not be enough to enable them to carry out the programme that they would envisage and that we shall likely approve for the coming year.

Two county boroughs and nine counties have submitted plans and estimates that would, under existing legislation, be greater than they could get. The situation, therefore, is that we have reviewed the amount of rating necessary to meet the expenses of committees for the coming year at the lower level and we have envisaged with a rather conservative outlook the highest figure of rating that would be necessary to put into full operation the full development of the schemes up to their maximum development as they are envisaged at the present time.

When the 1930 Bill was passed, urban committees were put into a position that they could ultimately demand the proceeds of a 6d. rate on their rating authorities and that the county committees could demand 4d. In 1944 the 6d. for urban areas was raised to 7d. and the 4d. for county areas was raised to 5d. In 1947, the maximum rate was raised to 9d. for urban districts and to 7d. in the case of county vocational committees. As I have indicated, these limits are not sufficient at the present time. In the first schedule to the present Bill you will see, under column 3, the amount of financial rating that we would allow committees to go to for the year commencing 1st April, 1951. In column 4 will be seen the ultimate rating to which we think they would go. There are two county boroughs and nine counties who require assistance at the present moment. The only areas whose rating for their ultimate and complete development need not be raised beyond what it is at present are Bray, Dún Laoghaire, Kilkenny and Meath, that is, two urban areas and two county council areas.

In the past, a certain type of control was kept over the rate of development and county councils were only allowed to increase their rate from year to year by about a farthing a year, and urban districts by about a halfpenny a year, over a fairly long period. In the present Bill it is being arranged that the normal yearly increase that can be approved of without any special sanction will be a penny. A special arrangement is being made by which, if any special circumstances should arise where special developments are being carried out, or in any other special circumstances, and a vocational education committee wants to get from the rating body a rating of more than a penny they will when they make out their scheme and their estimate in November submit the scheme to the county council as well as to the Minister, and if the vocational education committee in any particular case wants more the county council can pass a resolution approving of a rate of more than one penny but not more than twopence. When that decision reaches the Minister, the Minister may under the terms of the Bill approve of a rate of more than one penny but not more than twopence. The proposal is to give just that little bit of additional elbow room to vocational committees to enable them to carry on the work in hand. The general effect of the Bill can readily be seen by studying column 4 of Schedule I. I have told the House what is the function of the Bill. I do not think I need say any more at this particular stage.

Ní tógfar orm é má abraim go bhfuil diomá orm faoin dóigh in ar cuireadh an Bhille seo os ár gcomhair. Scéal an-mhór scéal seo an oideachais. Is scéim an-tábhachtach í scéim an Ghairm-Oideachais. Má tá sé le bheith mar ealaín ag Aire nó ag Airí go gcaithfidh lucht an tSeanaid bheith sásta leis an méid adeireann siad sa Dáil, ba cheart go dtiubharfaí fógra dhúinn dá réir sin.

Ní dúirt me é sin.

Ba cheart go dtiubharfaí fógra dhúinn dá réir sin agus ansin, daoine, a d'fhágfadh an scéal i leataoibh go dtiocfadh an tAire go dtí an tSeanad, ní dhéanfaidis an dearmad sin, ach d'fhéachfaidís chuige go bhfaighdis an oráid sa Dáil agus go scrúdóidis é. Tamall ó shoin chuir mé ceist ar an tSeanadóir Ó hAodha faoin mBille a chur siar go dtí am éigin tar éis na Nollag. Níl sin indéanta, dar leis. An fath go mba mhaith liom go bpléifí scéal seo an ghairm-oideachais i gceart sa tSeanad ná, idir dhá Thigh an Oireachtais, gur mó an spéis a bhíonn ag an Seanad in imeachtaí oideachais agus gur thairbhí an léirmheas a tabharfaí anseo air agus gur mhó, dá réir sin, an chabhair a tabharfaí don Aire agus gur mhó an chabhair a tabharfaí do lucht treoruithe na Roinne Oideachais i geoitinne, agus don mhuintir atá i bhfeighil Brainse an Ghairm-Oideachais go háirithe.

Ná ceapadh an tAire go bhfuilim ag fáil aon locht air nach ndearnadh sé óráid fhada. Do léigh mé an oráid a thug sé sa Dáil agus do léigh mé an díospóireacht go cúramach. Admhaim go bhfuil spéis faoi leith agam i mbrainse seo an oideachais go háirithe. Ní hé amháin go bhfuil spéis agam ann ach tá eolas agus tá cleachtadh agam ar an gcóras seo le blianta. Ina dhiaidh sin, meireach a dhéanaí atá an Bhille ag teacht ós ár gcóir, is ioma ceist ba mhaith liom a phlé, is ioma ceist, b'fhéidir, go mba mhaith liom a chur ar an Aire. Thairis sin, ní féidir liom ach rogha a dhéanamh ar roinnt pointí agus tagairt a dhéanamh do cheisteanna áirithe go measaim go mba cheart dúinn gan faillí a dhéanamh orthu.

Maidir leis an mBille, tá fhios againn ar fad an fáth go bhfuil sé os ár gcomhair. Le fada an lá, tá na coistí oideachais ag casaoid nach raibh dóthain ioncaim acu le haghaidh na hoibre a bhí idir lámha acu, gan tracht ar dóthain airgid le haghaidh na hoibre a bhí beartaithe acu agus a mheasadar go mba cheart a thosnú gan mhoill. Mheabhroigh an tAire féin don Dáil an t-athrú atá tagtha ar luach an airgid. Idir an dá chuis sin—leathnú ar an obair agus laghdú i mbrí nó fiúchas an airgid féin—bhí sé riachtanach go dtabharfaí an Bhille seo isteach.

Tá fhios againn nach bhfuil cruinniú de choistí gairm-oideachais ar fúd na tíre, go bhfuil daoine ag teacht ag éileamh breis agus breis eile seirbhísí. Bhí tamall ann go raibh daoine in aimhreas ar bhfiú airgead a chaitheamh ar an gcóras seo. Bhí daoine in aimhreas i dtaobh ar chóras tairbheach é. Tá an lá sin caite. Ní hé go bhfuil daoine in aimhreas anois air. Tá daoine tagtha ar an tuairim nach bhfuil dóthain á dhéanamh ag na coistí ná ag an Roinn leis an gcóras a leathnú.

Rud eile, is dóigh liom, nach féidir coistí níba thuisceanaí d'fháil in aon ghné de shaol na tíre ná na coistí atá i bhfeighil an ghairm-oideachais. Rud eile, tríd is tríd, ní féidir daoine níos cúramaí d'fháil ná iad maidir le caitheamh an airgid, maidir leis an spéis atá acu i gcúrsaí oideachais féin.

Ní leor an chóiríocht mar atá sé faoi láthair, le freastal ar an éileamh atá ar an oideachas. Tá a lán de na scoltacha plúchta cheana. Tá roinnt díobh agus tá liosta daoine ag fanacht le áit d'fháil iontu. Tá cuid de na scoltacha agus tá slí iontú, níl aon aimhreas faoi sin. Is docha gur mar sin a bheas an scéal i gcónaí.

Tá a lán daoine fós nach bhfuil ag fáil oideachais ar bith tár éis dóibh an bhunscoil d'fhágháil. Ní hionann sin is a rá go bhfuilimid níos measa ná tíortha eile. Tríd is tríd, táimid níos fearr ná tíortha eile, go háirithe má cuimhnítear gur freastal deontach nó "voluntary attendance" a dhéanas na daoine taobh amuigh de na bunscoileanna. Tá chuile dhuine ar an dtuairim gur trua gan tuilleadh daoine a bheith ag teacht go dtí na scoileanna gairm-bheatha nó go dtí cursaí leanúná. Nílímid ar fad ar aon intinn go mba cheart iallach a chur orthu. Na daoine atá i gcoinne freastail éigeantaigh, deireann siad go bhfeadfaimis a mhúineadh do thuismitheoirí na buntáistí atá ag baint leis na scoileanna seo agus na páistí a mhealladh uathu féin.

Ní féidir dúinn freastal ar ghairm-oideachas tríd an meán airgeadais atá ann faoi láthair. Tá na coistí sásta an ráta d'ardú nuair a iarrtar orthu, beagnach i ngach áit. Is mór an bhaint atá ag an gcóras seo le saol geilleagair saol tionscail, saol cultúra agus saol náisiúnta, agus ba cheart go gcuirfí iallach ar an bpobal i gcoitinne níos mó d'ioc. Do ghéill na comhairlí contae dhúinn go dtí seo, ach an ngéillfidh siad má iarraimid a thuilleadh? Tá na rátaí á n-ardú i gcónaí. Ní miste do dhaoine a bhaineann an bhuntáiste íoc as an tseirbhís, agus má theastaíonn seirbhís speisialta ó dhaoine ba cheart go gcuirfí orthu íoc as; ach is obair í seo a théann chun sochair do na daoine go léir, idir óg agus sean, i ngach ghé de shaol na tíre. Ar an abhar sin, caithfímid cuimhneamh as seo amach níos mó den ualach airgeadais atá riachtanach le haghaidh an chórais seo, d'aistriú chun an Stáit-Chiste, chun go mbeadh níos mó cabhrach le fáil ón Rialtas. Ní hionann sin is a rá go bhfuilim ag casaoid gur beag-is-fiú an méid atá ar fáil anois. Caithfimíd tuilleadh airgid a sholáthar agus ní bheidh cothram na féinne ann má bhíonn ar na coistí an t-ualach ar fad d'iompar.

Is minic anseo gur mheabhraígh mé do na h-Airí, go mór mór don Aire Talmhaíochta agus don Aire Tionscail agus Tráchtála, gur fuar acu a lán dá bhfuil idir láimh acu, mura gcuirtear cuid mhaith leis an gcóras gairm-oideachais. Ní bheidh aon toradh ar na scéimeanna atá beartaithe againn mura mbí na scéimeanna sin ag dul ar aghaidh céim ar chéim le cúrsaí gairm-oideachais—nó, droim ar ais, mura gcuireann tú ar chumas an chórais gháirm-bheatha freastal níos fearr a dhéanamh ar na scéimeanna atá beartaithe le forbairt tionscail agus tráchtála na tíre.

Is mór an sásamh dom, tar éis 20 bliain ag plé le coistí oideachais gairmbheatha, nuair a thuigim an mhuinín atá as ag na haicimí sin go léir, agus an comhoibriú idir na coistí, na príomhoifigí, na cumainn, na múinteoirí gairm-oideachais, cigirí na Roinne agus oifigigh na Roinne. Nuair a bhí scéim na Comhairle Oideachais á phlé anseo, dúirt mé go mbfhearr liom an scéal mar a bhí ná a leithéid sin de Chomhairle a bheith ann. Bhí eolas agus cleachtadh agam ar an gcomhoibriú a bhí idir na haicmí sin agus an toradh breá a bhí ar an saothar. Ba "headline" é sin, ní hamháin do bhrainsí oideachais eile ach dá lán aicimí agus dá lán gluaisceachtaí sa tír.

Ní féidir liom a rá go bhfuil an scéal mar gheall ar an riar múinteóirí gairm-oideachais sásúil. Admhóidh an tAire féin, is dócha, nach féidir dúinn bheith sásta leis an scéal mar atá. Ceart go leór, cuid de na múinteoirí, saghsanna áirithe múinteoirí, bíonn a ndóthain díobh le fáil tríd agus tríd. Is ceist í an bhfuil siad oilte amach is amach ar an mbealach ba mhaith linn iad a bheith oilte le haghaidh na hoibre. An ollscoil, déanann sé cuid mhaith le múinteoirí áirithe a chur ar fáil, ach fiú tar éis na hoibre móire tabhachtaí a déantar sna hollscoileanna agus fiú tar éis a gcuid tréineala le linn dóibh árd-teastas oideachais a bhaint amach, is ar éigin atá na daoine óga seo as an ollscoil ullamh i gceart don obair mhór atá le déanamh acu in ár gcuid scoltacha agus ár gcuid ranganna. Ina dhiaidh sin—agus cuimhnigh nach bhfuil na seirbhisí tréineala chomh maith agus ba mhaith liomsa go háirithe iad a bheith—ní féidir liom ach a rá go gcuireann sé ionadh orm a fheabhas agus a chrothaíonn an chuid is mó de na múinteoirí sin.

Maidir le múinteoirí eile saghsanna eile múinteóirí, níl an scéal baol ar a bheith chomh sásúil, d'ainneoin go bhfuil lochtaí ar oiliúint múinteóirí den chéad aicme a luaigh mé. Tugaim faoi deara ag an gCoiste a bhfuil baint agamsa leis le fad de bhlianta an deacracht a bhíonns orainn go minic múinteóirí d'fháil, agus ní hamháin go mbíonn deacracht orainn go minic múinteóirí d'fháil, ach an chaoi a gcuirtear ár gcuid oíbre bun-os-cionn go miníc de thoradh múinteóirí a bheith ag imeacht leó go dtí postaí nó ceantracha níos feiliúnaí dóibh, dar leo féin. Cuimhním, mar shampla, ar mhúinteóirí líníochta nó múinteóirí ealaíon—"art teachers"— agus ar an chaoi céanna, múinteóiri tís, múinteoirí obair láimhe nó múinteoirí siúinéireachta. Bíonn sé deacair go minic dóthain daoine d'fháil. Tá daoine ann agus deireann siad nach miste an scéal a bheith mar sin. Tá daoine ar an saol agus is dóigh leo más é X an t-éileamh gur leor go mbé X an riar. Níl sé sin ceart. Ba cheart, is dóigh liom, ní hamháin sa mhúinteoireacht, ach i ngach gné den saol, go mbeadh sórt "reserve" oibrithe ann, agus ba mhaith liom go ndeanfaí iarracht ar níos mó de na múinteoirí, múinteoirí de na saghasanna éagsúla atá luaite agam, a chur á n-oiliúint.

Ó thaobh na gaeilge dhe, ar ámharaí an tsaol, i gContae na Gaillimhe, ní bhíonn mórán deacrachta againn. Ní leor don ghairm-oideachas na múinteoirí a bheith oilte i mBéarla. Ní leor é le haghaidh brainse ar bith den oideachas agus ní leor é go háirithe don oideachas gairme beatha. Nuair smaoinítear ar chontae mar Chontae na Gaillimhe, ta Galltacht ann agus tá fíor-Ghaeltacht mhór láidir ann, buíochas le Dia, agus nuair a bhíonn muid ag toghadh múinteora caithimid féachaint chuige go mbeidh an múinteoir a gheobhas muid in ann dul isteach sa Ghalltacht nó sa Ghaeltacht, do réir mar fheileann sé don choiste. Dá bhrí sin, ní fhéadfaimís bheith ró-churamach maidir le taobh na gaeilge dhe in oiliúint na múinteoirí de gach saghas le haghaidh oideachais gairme beatha.

Tá daoine ar an dtuairim, más múinteoirí ealaíon, más múinteoirí siúinéireachta atá i gceist, ansin nach dteastáionn an ghaeilge. Tá daoine ar an dtuairim, más múinteóirí obair mhiotal atá i gceist, nach dteastaíonn an Ghaeilge nó ar a laghad nach bhfeileann an ghaeilge le haghaidh ábhair theicniúla mar iad. Níl sé sin fíor. Teastáionn an t-eolas i gcontae áirithe mar Thír Chonaill, mar Chontae Mhuigheo, mar Chontae na Gaillimhe, Contae Chiarraighe agus Contae Chorcaighe. Teastaíonn an t-eolas ar an ngaeilge sna contaethe seo agus teastaíonn é bheith ar chumas na múinteoirí a gcuid oibre a dhéanamh go cruinn agus go beacht trí mheán na gaeilge.

Maidir leis an teicniúlacht dhe, tá sé le feiceáil againn i gContae na Gaillimhe ar na múinteoirí atá againn go bhfuil siad ábalta a gcuid oibre a dhéanamh chomh cruinn, chomh beacht, agus atá duine ar bith in Éirinn i ndon é a dhéanamh i mBéarla. Cuimhním ar tuairisc a léigh me timpeall le seachtain nó deich lá ó shoin mar gheall ar scéim duaiseanna a bunaíodh anseo i mBaile Atha Cliath ag muintir Booth, scéim cuid mhaith duaiseanna a bhronnadh ar lucht na gairm-scoltacha sa roinn miotail nó ar theagasc miotail agus chuir sé rímhéad orm nuair a chonaic mé an liosta gur buachaill as Conamara a fuair an chéad áit. Creidim, pé ar bith teagasc a fuair an fear óg sin, go bhfuair sé i nGaeilge é.

Maidir le scéal seo na scoltacha—ni mian liom faid ró-mhór a bhaint as, ach is scéal práinneach é—tá beagnach gach coiste sa tír, is dóigh liom, taobh amuigh de na bailte ag iarraidh brú ar aghaidh le breis scoltacha a thógáil agus ní thaithníonn liom a fhaid is atá coscán ar imeachtaí na gcoistí maidir leis an taobh sin dá gcuid oibre.

Ní theastaíonn uaim cur sios ar gach contae ach ba mhaith liom mo chontae féin a thógáil mar shampla, mar beidh an coiste sin ina shampla chomh maith agus is féidir a fháil sa tír. Tá an coiste sin í gcónaí ag iarraidh na scéimeanna ata acu a leathnú. Ní uathu féin amhain é— cé go dteastaíonn uathu é a dhéanamh uathu féin—ach tá fórsaí taobh amuigh ag cur iachall orthu na seirbhísí a leathnú nó féachaint le hiad a leathnú más féidir. Ní bhíonn aon chruinniú ann nach léitear litreacha agus go rí-mhinic bíonn toscairí í mo thigh fhéin ag féachaint an bhféadfadh siad ranganna siúinéireachta, ranganna tís, ranganna seo nó ranganna siúd a fháil nó ag féachaint an féidir scoil a fháil.

Rud eile, ba dhoiligh coiste a fháil is fearr a thuigeas an mortghabháil atá orthu nó ba dhoiligh coiste a fháil is mó a bhfuil fonn orthu géilleadh do na hiarratais a thagas isteach chucu ná coiste na Gaillimhe. Mura bhfuil an obair i bhfad níos leithne ní ar an gcoiste atá an milleán agus go mor mhór ní ar an bpríomh-oifigeach atá an milleán. Tá moladh ag dul do na príomh-oifigigh frí chéile mar sheirbhísigh poiblí, mar sharánaigh agus mar Éireannaigh. Scoth na tíre iad. Sílim go dtig linn a rá i gContae na Gaillimhe go bhfuil duine de na daoine is fearr dá bhfuil orthu againn agus d'aontódh na príomh-oifigigh go léir leis an tuairim sin. Níl muid i ndon freastal ar an obair mar is cóir agus an fáth atá leis sin na luachála atá againn sa Chontae. Ní leor an méid airgid a gheibheas muid de thoradh na rátaí móide an deontas atá le fáil dá réir sin ón Roinn Oideachais le go mbeadh muid i ndon an obair is mian linn a dhéanamh. Tá scéimeanna oibrithe amach againn agus tá eolas maith ag muintir na Roinne orthu. Ar a laghad teastaíonn ocht scol nua uainn i nGaillimh gan trácht ar ranganna taobh amuigh de scoltacha.

Notice taken that 12 members were not present; House counted, and 12 members being present,

Bhí beartas minimum againn agus chuireamar ós comhair an Aire é féachaint an údaródh sé dhúinn ceithre scoltacha nua a thógáil sa nGalltacht agus ceithre scoltacha nua a thógáil sa Ghaeltacht. Ba mhaith linn go mbeadh scoil nua againn i mBaile Locha Riabhach, ar an gCloch Breac, sa Dún Mór agus i mBéal Atha an Rí. Tá eileamh orthu agus tá fianaise, an oiread is féidir a bhailiú, an oiread atá riachtanach, curtha isteach againn go dtí an Roinn i bhfábhar na scol sin a chur ar bun. Taobh amuigh de ranganna theastódh sa Ghaeltacht ar a laghad scoil ar an gCnoc, scoil in Árainn, scoil in gCárna agus scoil i gCorr na Móna. In éindigh leis na scoltacha sin teastaíonn agus teastaíonn go géar uainn go bhfeabhsófaí agus go méadófaí cuid de na scoltacha eile. An dá cheann an mó a bhfuil call le méadú agus feabhsú orthu an Cheathramha Rua sa Ghaeltacht agus Tuaim sa Ghalltacht.

Ba mhaith liom tagairt bheag a dhéanamh do scéal na Gaeltachta go háirithe. Mar adúirt mé cheana is fada atá an coiste seo againne ag iarraidh freastal ar an éileamh atá ar a leithéid seo d'oideachas sa Ghaeltacht. Dúthaigh an-mhór é ach is ceantar an-chúng é. Caithfidh mór-chuid na ndaoine imeacht go háit éigin taobh amuigh dá gceantracha dúchais agus níl seans ag an gcuid is mó de na daoine sa dúthaigh sin aon oideachas a fháil taobh amuigh den bhun-oideachas. Dá mbeadh an seans fhéin acu oideachas a fháil taobh amuigh den bhun-oideachas mar atá in áiteacha, níor cheart iad a chur leis an oideachas sin. Ní fheileann siad dó agus ní fheileann an t-oideachas sin dóibh. Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh meán-oideachas ar fáil ag gach duine sa tír agus go mbeadh sé ar fáil aige in aisce.

Gach duine a bheadh oiriúnach.

Ach tá fhios againn nach bhfeileann gach duine dá leithéid. Ba chailliúint ama agus cailliúint airgid daoine a chur leis an meán-oideachas. D'ainneoin go mbeadh meán-scoltacha le fáil mar atá i gCiarraighe, i dTír Chonaill agus ag pointí i nGaeltacht na Gaillimhe, is dóigh liom gur mhór an dearmad na daoine a thiomáint isteach ina leithéid de scoltacha gan iarracht a dhéanamh freastal orthu ar an mbealach cheart, is é sin, trí ghairm-oideachas.

Tá fhios againn é sin i nGaillimh agus phleanáil an coiste ansin dá réir. An chéad ghairm-scoil a bunaíodh riamh i nGaillimh do bunaíodh í sa Spidéal sa bhliain 1931. An scoil ansin ní scoil ó cheart í ach halla. Do thógamar dhá scoil ceann amháin sa Ceathramhain Rua agus an ceann eile i Rosmuc. Creidim gur féidir linn a rá i dtaobh na scoilanna seo gurb iad na céad scoltacha tuaithe iad, the first rural schools. D'éirigh than bharr leis an scoil sa gCeathramhain Rua ón gcéad lá ach níor éirigh chomh maith sin leis an scoil i Rosmuc. Do thógamar iad faoi alt 51 d'Acht 1931. Nuair a bhí na scoltacha tógtha againn fuaramar denotas speisialta leis na fiacha a bhí orainn a ghlanadh—timpeall £1,500.

I am sorry but I must refer to the fact that there is no quorum.

There is a quorum.

If there is I cannot count.

Senator Ó Buachalla.

Tá súil agam nach dtógfaidh an tAire orm é go bhfuil mé ag plé an scéil seo chomh mion maith is táim. Bhí mé ag tagairt don dúil a bhí againn freastal ar an nGaeltacht. Le goirid rinneamar iarracht dul go háit eile iargúlta le scoil a bhunú. Do chuamar i gcomhairle leis na mná rialta san áit seo. Fuaramar seomraí agus tá scoil ar bun ansin. Ní féidir a rá go bhfuil an scoil sásúil. Chomh maith leis sin, táimid ag iarraidh cúrsaí a choinneáil ar bun sna hoileáin in Árainn agus measaim go bhfuil, taobh amuigh de na múinteoirí atá sna scoltacha, suas le cúigear múinteoirí taistil ar a laghad atá ag cur cúrsaí ar fáil. Taobh amuigh den obair atá ar siúl againn ag iarraidh scoltacha nua a bhunú tá clár scoláireachtaí ann. Chuir mé an-spéis i bhfreaghra a tugadh sa Dáil i dtaobh scéim na scoláireachta. D'ainneoin luach íseal na ndeontas, agus d'ainneoin gach constaic eile thug mé faoi deara nach bhfuil coiste ar bith in Éirinn is féile a chuir airgead ar fáil le haghaidh cúrsaí scoláireachtaí ná coiste crontae na Gallimhe

I think it is disgraceful that we have only four on the Government side of the House.

There is a quorum in the House. There are 12.

Bhí dhá chúis agam tagairt a dhéanamh don scéim scolaireachtaí; an céad cheann an dúil a bhí ag an gCoiste a gcuid oibre a dhéanamh chomh maith agus a b'féidir. Sé an dara chúis go ndearna mé tagairt don scéim le go mbeadh fhios ag an Seanad an saghas oibre atá ar bun againn ar son na Gaeltachta. Na cúrsaí sin a bhíonn ar siúl againn maireann siad timpeall sé seachtaine agus bíonn cúig scoláireacht déag is triocha ar fáil. Múintear an cúrsa frí chéile i nGaeilge. Ní múintear an Ghaeilge amháin mar ábhar ach tá cursaí iomlána teicniúla ar fáil.

An áit a bhfuil fonn ar dhaoine an Ghaeilge d'úsáid mar mheán teagaisc sa Ghalltacht chomh maith leis an nGaeltacht, an áit a bhfuil fonn ar mhúinteoirí an obair sin a dhéanamh, is feidir leo é a dhéanamh agus é a dhéanamh go han-tsásúil. Nil fhios agam an bhfuil sé déanta ag an Aire— b'fhéidir go bhfuil agus má tá is maith é—ach do bhfiú dó féin agus dóibh siúd atá i gceannas na Roinne, agus do na daoine a bhfuil spéis acu i gceist na muinteoireachta trí Ghaeilge, go háirithe sna habhair a múintear sna scoileanna Gairm-Oideachais dul go speisíalta chun na scoileanna sin, um deireadh an chúrsa, chun féachaint ar an toradh mór bréa atá ar an obair sin— siúinéireacht, fuáil, bróidnéireacht, cócaireacht, abhair theicniúla mar atá cúntasíocht, agus fiú amháin na leabhair scríofa a bhíonn ag na buachailli. Do b'fhiú dóibh iad sin go léir d'fheiscint —an méid gur féidir le daoine óga mar sin a dhéanamh, a fheabhas agus a shlachtmhaire atá an obair sin go léir déanta.

I gContae na Gaillimhe, le fada anois, tá an coiste ag deánamh gach iarracht chun cúrsaí speísíalta a chur ar bun le haghaidh múinteóirí sna scoileanna gairm-oideachais. Dá mba rud é go raibh níos mó scoileanna acu sa Ghaeltacht do bfhéidir i bhfad níos mó a dhéanamh. Toghtar an scoil 'sa gCeathramhadh Rua gach bhliain agus is mar a chéile é i Rosmuc. Na seomraí atá againn i dTír an Fhaidh do toghadh iad i mbliana le haghaidh cúrsaí speisialta i gcéarda tuaithe. Bhí mé féin ann. Do chonaic mé na múinteoirí agus do chonaic mé an obair a bhí ar siúl acu. Do chonaic mé toradh na hoibre sin agus ní féidir liom ach é seo a rá: gur bhréa an rud é don córas oideachas go bhfuil múinteóirí againn cosúil leis na múinteoirí a tháinig go Tír an Fhiadh—múinteoirí a bhí chomh cliste leis an obair láimhe is a bhí na múinteoirí sin. Deirimse an. meid sin mar fhianaise ar bona fide an Choiste Gairm-Oideachais i nGaillimh faoi thógail scoileanna, ní hamháin sa Ghalltacht ach sa Ghaeltacht freisin. Níos mó ná uair amháin bhí comhra agam leis an Roinn faoi scoileanna nua a thógáil. Níl mé sásta, beag ná mór, agus níl an coiste sásta, beag ná mór, leis an dul-ar-aghaidh atá déanta againn. Má luaim go speisialta Contae na Gaillimhe ná ceap gurb iad muintir Cho. na Gaillimhe amhain atá míshásta—mar is féidir le cuid mhaith coistí an gearán céanna a dhéanamh is atá á dhéanamh againne—nach bhfuil siad ag fáil an údaráis ná ag fáil na cabhrach atá riachtanach dóibh chun leanúint leis an obair thairbheach náisiúnta seo. Admhaím gan amhras, go bhfuil dul-ar-aghaidh déanta. Tá udarás againn aon scoil amháin sa Ghalltacht, scoil i gCloch Breac, a thógáil. Bhíomar ag fanúint leis sin le fada an lá ach is maith liom a rá nach fada anois, le cúnamh Dé, go mbeidh an scoil sin tógtha againn.

Ag teacht thar n-ais arís don scéal is comhgaraí dom chroí-se, scéal na Gaeltachta, ba mhaith liom a mheabhrú i bpoiblí conas mar atá an scéal. Do theastaigh, le blianta ón gcoiste atá againn scoil a chur ar bun in Árainn. In 1933, creidim, do shocraíomar dul ar aghaidh in Árainn le tógáil scoile. D'iarramar ar an Roinn Oideachais ag an am aird ar leith a thabhairt don iarratas a chuireamar isteach chucu agus, dá réir, go dtabharfaidis cabhair speisialta airgid don obair. Do cheapamar, do réir Achta 1930, go raibh ceart againn chun na cabhrach sin mar gheall ar na coiníolléacha spesialta a bhaineann le Árainn agus le háiteanna eile sa Ghaeltacht. Tar éis dul i gcomhairle leis an Roinn Oideachais faoin scoil in Arainn, dúirt an Roinn linn go mba chóir dhúinn leanúint agus an "experiment" a dheánamh ar an oileán—go mba chóir dhúinn, uainn féin, as ár ngustal féin, é sin a dhéanamh—scoil a chur ar bun agus féachaint conas d'éireódh leis. Do dheineamar amhlaidh. Do chuireamar cúrsaí lae agus cúrsaí oiche ar siúl. Do lean an scéim sin go dtí tús an chogaidh. Bhí mise in Arainn. Do thug me léachtaí ar an oileán do lucht na scoile agus do na daoine ar an oileán. Do chonaic mé an obair ar siúl sna scoileanna. Do chonaic mé an sórt daoine a bhí ag teacht chugainn. Nuair a bhris an cogadh amach, dob éigin dúinn éirí as an triail mar bhí deacrachtaí taistil agus deacrachtaí eile nach iad ag cur isteach orainn.

An chéad rud eile, chomh maith agus is cuimhin liom, dob é ná gur leanamar ar aghaidh le scéal na scoileana. Do chuamar thar n-ais don Roinn agus d'innseamar dóibh an scéal faoi Árainn agus ar a thábhachtaí a bhí sé scoil a bheith ar an gCnoc. An scéal sin faoin gCnoc, b'fhéidir go mba chóir dom tagairt speisialta a dheánamh dó, ar feadh cúpla nóiméad, agus ansin beidh deireadh agam leis an scéal go léir. Sin mar do bhí an scéal faoi Arainn.

An bhfuil aon rud eile le chur leis?

Tá, an scéal faoin airgead.

An scéal faoin scoil agus faoin airgead agus gach rud atá agaibh.

Bheartaigh an coiste scoil a thógáil. Mar gheall ar an scoil in Arainn, do phléamar an scéal dhá bhliain ó shoin leis an Aire. Do meabhraíodh don Aire sa Dáil faoi thoscaireacht a tháinig chuige—agus bhí mise im bhall den toscaireacht sin ag an am sin.

Phléamar ár gcúis ar son na scoile. Sa deireadh d'admhaigh an tAire go raibh cúis mhaith againn agus go mba cheart géilleadh don iarratas. Do hiarradh orainn ansin, chomh maith agus is cuimhin liom, cuntas a chur suas go dtí an Roinn ar chostas na scoile sin—tógail, múinteoirí, coinneáil suas, agus eile. B'fhéidir go raibh dul amú orm ach ní miste liom a rá, agus sí an tuairim chéanna atá ag na daoine eile a bhí páirteach sa díospóireacht, gur thuig mé ón díospóireacht a bhí againn leis an Aire agus oifigígh na Roinne, go mbeadh an tAire féin sásta an t-airgead ar fad a chur ar fáil dúinn le haghaidh na scoile sin. Tháinig an scéal ó shoin go mbeadh deontas le fáil againn le haghaidh cothabhála na scoile, múinteoirí, agus eile ach go mbeadh sé de dhualgas ar an gcoiste é féin an t-airgead a sholáthar le haghaidh na tógála. Cinnte, bhí sé intuigthe go gcuirfeadh an tAire a leath den airgead ar fáil, mar a dheineann sé i ngach cás, agus go n-íocfadh sé a chuid féin den chostas, ús agus a leithéidí sin. Má bhí mi-thuiscint ann, is trua liom é.

Ní mór a rá nach maith an deontas dúinn an méid atá tairgthe, £1,260, ach, an chaoi a bhfuil an saol, go mba cheart go dtógfadh an tAire féin an dualgas ar fad air. Ná ceapadh an tAire go bhfuil an Coiste Oideachais nó an Chomhairle Contae ag iarraidh éaló óna ndualgas. Más orainn atá an scoil a thógáil, tógfaimíd í. Más orainn atá an t-airgead a chur ar fáil leis an scoil a thógáil, ní bheidh muintir Arainn gan scoil. Ní miste liom a rá gur thuigeamar go mbeadh cabhair níos mó le fáil againn agus go bhfuil díomá orainn nach bhfuaramar an oiread agus a bhí súil againn leis.

Tá scoil eile. Impím ar an Aire go dtabharfadh sé aird ar an gcúis i bhfábhar na scoile eile sa Chnoc. Tá sé 15 bliana ó shoin ó thosaigh na hiarratais ag teacht isteach maidir leis an scoil sin. Níl mé cinnte ach is dóigh liom gurab é Sagart Paróiste an Spidéil an chéad duine a d'iarr orainn scoil a thógáil thiar ansin agus, chomh maith agus is cuimhin liom, thairg sé ionad scoile dhúinn. Is cuimhin liom Sagart Paróiste an Chnoic, an tAth. Séamus Ó Ceallaigh, a theacht agus a iarraidh orainn dul ar aghaidh leis an scoil sin. Is cuimhin liom toscaireachta ag teacht.

Notice taken that 12 Senators were not present; House counted and 12 Senators being present,

An t-am sin, chomh maith le scoil Arainn agus Scoil an Chnoic a bhí ídir lámha againn, thosaigh na h-iarratais ag teacht isteach ar son Chárna agus Chorr na Móna, agus do chuireamar moltaí suas go dtí an Roinn ag iarraidh orthú ligint dúinn dul ar aghaidh leis na scoltacha go léir. Tar éis tamaill fuaramar scéal on Roinn féin go raibh an scéal ar fad breithnithe acu agus gur dóigh leo go mba cheart dúinn Arainn agus an Chnoc a cheangal agus dul ar aghaidh le beartas ina gcomhair siúd.

An áit ar Chnoc na hAille—creidim go raibh an tAire ann le goirid tá sé ar na ceantracha is líonmhaire daoine sa tír. Tá pobal an-líonmhar sa dúthaigh sin.

Níl fhios agam a bhfuil aon áit in Éirinn is líonmhaire daoine ná é. Níl fhios agam an bhfuil aon cheantar i nÉirinn is láidre a bhfuil an Ghaeilge ann, agus níl fhios agam an bhfuil aon chuid den Ghaeltacht is mó a bhfuil na daoine bródúil as an nGaeilge ná na daoine i gceantar an Chnoic.

Chuamar go dtí an Roinn ag iarraidh orthu an scoil seo a cheadú. Bhíomar ann i Samhain, 1947, agus bhí sé le tuiscint ag an gCoiste go bhféadfaidis dul ar aghaidh leis an scoil sin chomh maith le Scoil Arainn gan aon ró-mhoill. Chumar thar n-ais go dtí an Roinn i Samhain, 1948. Phléamar an scéal ansin arís agus ní dóigh liom go bhfuilim ag déanamh áibléise ar bith nuair a deirim gur aontaigh an tAire agus a chomhairleoirí nach raibh aon fhreagra acu ar an gcúis a chuireamar os a gcomhair. Is dóigh liom nach bhfuil mé ag cur cuma bréige ar bith ar an scéal nuair a deirim gurb é tuairim gach duine a bhí i láthair ag an gcomhairle sin go mba áit í an Chnoc ina raibh scoil ag teastáil agus go mba áit í a mba cheart dul ar aghaidh leis an scoil gan aon mhoill. Cuimhneoidh an tAire gur tarraingeadh isteach ceist mar gheall ar easaontas áitiúil agus dá bhfeádtaí an t-easaontas sin a réiteach nach mbeadh an deacracht ann. Tá áthas orm a rá go bhfuil sé réitithe le fada. Tá ionad scoile facha againn agus an t-ailtire a bhí ann, ní raibh aon aimhreas air faoi shuíomh na scoile. Tá se lán-tsasta i dtaobh an ionaid atá tofa againn faoi láthair. Má tá cúis ag an Aire i gcoinne an scoil a cheadú—

Cad na thaobh go ndéarfadh an Seanadóir rud mar sin, agus a bhfuil ráite agam leis an toscaireacht agus a bhfuil scríofa agam ó shoin?

Nílim ach ag iarraidh aon rud amháin anois air— an dtabharfaidh sé an t-údarás don choiste dul ar aghaidh le scéim tógála na scoile i gCruach gan mhoill agus an chabhair le haghaidh na scéime seo a bhfuil súil againn leis, de thoradh na n-agallamh a bhí againn leis agus le muintir na Roinne sul má thainig sé isteach? Má fhagham freagra sásúil ar sin, sílim go mbeidh obair mhaith déanta ag an Aire agus obair mhaith déanta agam tráthnóna.

Ba dona liom ceist chomh tábhachtach sin a thabhairt isteach an tráth seo den tsiosón. Ní chuirim milleán ar an Aire, ach is trua liom nach raibh sé níos tráthúla. Nílim ag cur aon mhilleán ar lucht an tSeanaid, mar ní hé seo an tseachtain is fearr le bheith i láthair.

Thairis sin, is maith an Bhille í agus bheireann sí cabhair don choiste, ach sílim go mbeidh an tAire ar an gcéad duine a aontós nach é seo deireadh na scéime agus nach fada go mbeidh sé ag teacht os comhair an Oireachtais le Bille eile chun na cuspoirí seo a bhaint amach.

While it would be possible on this Bill to travel over the whole field of vocational education, and while it might be desirable to go into the details of its operation in every county to the same extent as Senator Ó Buachalla did in the case of Galway, I am sure the Seanad will agree that it would be unreasonable to do so at this late hour in the last sitting of the Seanad before Christmas. At the same time it may not be possible, nor do I think it would be right, to adjourn consideration of the Bill for a further and fuller debate because that would mean that it would not come before the Seanad again until, say, next February or March. I understand the Bill is merely a machinery Bill. There is no new principle involved in it, and unless it is passed now, it will place the vocational committees and the county councils themselves in a difficulty because they will need this legislation to prepare their rate estimates and to enable them to carry out their duties during the next year. I suggest, therefore, that the proper step for the Seanad would be to pass all stages of the Bill, but I think it would be advisable that a motion would be put down later to give the Seanad a full opportunity of discussing this whole matter of vocational education which, as the Senator said, is so necessary to-day. I think that would be advantageous not alone from the point of view of vocational education but from the point of view of education as a whole.

I want to say something about the maximum rate which a rating authority may strike for this purpose. I agree that it is correct that there should be a maximum, particularly as the Exchequer will have to meet a portion of the expenditure which bears some relation to the amount which local authorities can strike. At the same time, I think that in some cases the maximum is fixed at too low a figure. I am interested tonight only in the figure for South Tipperary. Many people who are interested in vocational education there have made representations to me that a 9d. rate is too small—not that a 9d. rate is not sufficient for the year mentioned but that if it should become necessary at a later stage to strike a rate in excess of that figure, new legislation would have to be introduced in order that the higher rate could be struck. When we consider that the Vocational Education Committee is comprised of ratepayers and of people who would be anxious to keep the rates as low as possible, and that the county council is also comprised of ratepayers who would be equally anxious that the rates should be kept as low as possible, we can see that there is a certain check on the sum to be raised and that public representatives would be interested in keeping the rate as low as is consistent with efficient administration. On that account, I would urge the Minister, if he can, to increase in this Bill the maximum rate for South Tipperary from 9d. to 10d. The 9d. rate, as I have already said, will be perhaps sufficient for quite a long time or at any rate for a reasonable time, but I do not think that any wrong will be done either to the ratepayers or the taxpayers if the Minister could respond to the plea I am making to increase the sum for South Tipperary to 10d.

I agree with Senator O'Connell that it is rather inappropriate at this late hour to enter on a discussion of all aspects of vocational education but I should like to support his view that an early opportunity should be afforded to review the whole field of vocational education. As I see it at present, this term "vocational education" is entirely a misnomer. We have no actual vocational education in this country. We have technical education or post-primary education but there is nothing vocational about it. It is a matter which is costing the country a considerable amount of money at present and local authorities are beginning to feel that they are not getting a proper return for their expenditure. As I understand the term "vocational education," there should be a school where the natural bent or the natural inclination of the pupil would be examined, and after that natural bent has been discovered, every effort should be made to develop and promote it in the best way possible. In the curricula of these schools, as they exist at the moment, you have really only a few subjects taught to pupils who are finished with the national school. There is nothing, as I say, vocational about them. The pupils do a little woodwork, a little rule of science or other courses of that kind, but there is no method, as far as I can see, to discover what the pupil's natural inclination is. For that reason I maintain it is not vocational at all. However, an early opportunity will be taken to review the whole question of vocational education and consideration can then be given to the point whether it should be abandoned as vocational education and to call it precisely what it is, either a primary course or a course of technical instruction.

I welcome this Bill because, despite what was said by the last Senator, I believe the vocational education authorities are doing very fine work. A problem arises that will have to be watched and that is the amount of money that is taken out of the local rates. The ratepayers in all counties and urban areas are asking for a reduction in the rates and if there is another imposition for the purpose of vocational education, possibly that type of education will not be as popular as it has been. I take it the Government will continue to give £1 for £1. It was a varying amount, because in Kerry they gave £9 to £1 and in Dublin it was £1 for £1.

Do not misrepresent Kerry.

In 1944 when a Bill was debated here Kerry was getting £9 for £1.

Do not raise up the Kerry man.

If it was not £9 it was very near £9. The answer of the Minister then was that circumstances necessitated a higher rate for various counties. I suppose we may assume the Government will be as generous as heretofore and give at least an equivalent amount.

I want to air a grievance. I spoke to the Minister about it, but I think it is just as well to air it publicly. This is not peculiar to Dublin. We have here a committee composed of 14 persons, one appointed by the Archbishop and the other 13 appointed by the corporation. Of the 13 I think there are six primary teachers. I am not saying a word against the primary teachers, but I suggest that six of them on a vocational committee of 13 is a little too much. Senators must realise that there are no representatives of labour or of the employing classes on that committee.

Who appointed them?

They are appointed by the politicians, because the politicians have control of the county councils and the corporations and they make the appointments. It must be remembered that without the employing classes and without the working people these vocational schools could not be run and if something is not done to curb this tendency on the part of politicians to appoint their friends on these committees—there is a certain amount of patronage—there certainly will be trouble. I suggest the Minister should consider this matter seriously.

The complaint we are making with regard to Dublin is not peculiar to Dublin; it has happened in other areas. Representations have been made by the Congress of Irish Unions and also by the Dublin Trade Union Council to the Minister to have this grievance remedied. This sort of thing shakes the confidence of the working people in these vocational schools and it was for them that the schools were primarily established. Something should be done to curb this tendency to exclude representatives of the working classes and the employers.

I welcome the Bill, but I think the time is coming when the State will have to bear more of the cost of these schools than it is bearing at the present time. Some limit will have to be placed on the amount that is taken towards the establishment of these schools from the rates.

I appreciate the way in which the Seanad has received this measure. I would like to say to Senator Ó Buachalla, with reference to his remark about my presentation of this general matter, that I was only indicating to the Seanad that I appreciated that this House would at some time or another wish to have a full discussion on this subject and I would be very glad to discuss a motion either to deal with the matter generally or with any particular section of it at any time the Seanad thought it desirable to have a discussion of that kind.

Senator Loughman spoke of the narrowness with which perhaps the maximum amount is drawn. I appreciate there may be something in that, but in South Tipperary it gives a substantial margin in which to do a certain amount of development. I do not see very much point in squeezing down the upper level when there is so much development throughout the country. I am asked not to present too great a temptation to committees in the country to go ahead too quickly with the raising and spending of money in this way. They were restricted to an annual sum of one farthing, but now they have a penny and under certain circumstances they have twopence. The amount that will be raised under one penny or in special circumstances under twopence will be doubled by the amount of State grants so far as the counties are concerned and even Kerry will get only £1 for £1 in respect of the additional increase. In the urban districts they get £4 for every additional £1 they give and in Dublin City they get £2.

The general financial scheme remains as it was, so that the question that Senator Loughman raised does not really arise now. It would mean we would have to go back to the Dáil if we changed it and there are a few years of development in the amount of money there. A very wide survey of the position in respect of one particular area has been covered by Senator Ó Buachalla. I think the representations he had to make with regard to the variety and importance of the work can be reflected in nearly every county, with the very definite characteristic about it that nearly every county brings a certain amount of difference of talent and approach to the variety of problems that arise.

It is quite true, as the Senator says, that the directors of the teachers, that is, the chief executive officers, have done a very valiant and magnificent work. It would be difficult to find a group of people who have done so much in such a stimulating and a courageous way as they have done in either the social or the economic sphere of the educational world. It has been complained that there are not a sufficient number of teachers and the suggestion was made that they are not sufficiently well-trained. I do not think any training school sends out matured teachers. Maturity can only come by relating the problems of life outside to the problems that confront teachers in the schools and the actual handling of the students in relation to those problems. I appreciate that, while Senator Ó Buachalla did remark on that particular characteristic, he did say that when you consider that they go out without general experience of the world it is remarkable what they do.

There are quite a number of schemes in hand for dealing with the provision of teachers in metal work and woodwork. I am particularly grateful to the President of University College, Cork, who for the next two years is placing facilities at our disposal in the college to train metal work teachers. It will be possible to organise a two years' course. The first year's course will be done in the technical schools in Cork by making use of the technical school teachers there. The second year's course will be done in University College, Cork, by making use of the professors and instructors of the university. The Department will, however, bear the cost. That alone shows how all those engaged in various schemes of education are dovetailing their schemes and are working together. The Department did assist Professor O'Rahilly in initiating a system of adult instruction which is being given for workers in various parts of the country. The vocational education committee in Cork contributed to that by loaning their principal teachers. There you have local committees, the university and the Department all operating together in an atmosphere created by both the spirit and the achievement of work in the vocational schools and under the vocational committees.

Senator Finan questioned whether it is real vocational work. I do not know whether we will ever get a system where children will be passed through a machine and rolled into their proper places in the way that one sees eggs rolled in a machine at the Royal Dublin Society. I do know that, where you have vocational education committees, where you have teachers and classes related as far as possible to fit in with the life of a locality, I cannot find any better scheme than that at the present time. I do not think anybody can suggest a better scheme to bring out what is in the people and give them a taste for education, freshened and quickened and related to their daily lives. I feel that there is a lot to be said, particularly with regard to vocational education, and I shall be grateful and glad to have an opportunity of discussing the matter some time in the near future with the Seanad.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed, that the remaining stages of the Bill be taken now.
Bill passed through Committee without amendment, reported, received for final consideration and passed.
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