Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 20 Mar 1951

Vol. 39 No. 9

Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1951—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Minister for Defence (General MacEoin)

As Senators are aware, the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923, has been maintained in force up to the present by a series of continuing Acts. The Bill now under consideration is one of these and its purpose is to continue the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Acts in force for another year—that is, up to the 31st March, 1952.

A permanent Defence Bill was circulated to the Dáil late last year and it is at present awaiting a Second Reading there. It is a very extensive Bill —one of the most extensive which has been introduced—and I cannot say with certainty when it is likely to be enacted. If its enactment is not greatly delayed it may be possible to repeal the Temporary Provisions Acts before the 31st March next, but as a matter of precaution I have thought it desirable to envisage their being in force up to that date.

The present Bill is similar in form to those of previous years and is self-explanatory so that I do not think it necessary to delay Senators with any further remarks about it, particularly as they will have an opportunity for a full discussion of the permanent Bill when it comes before them.

Mr. Hawkins

As the Minister has pointed out, this is a temporary measure and there is a permanent measure in the hands of members. I do not know when it will come before the House. In the meantime, it may be no harm to direct a few remarks to the Minister on the question of our Defence Force. There has been some criticism of the Government's approach to this question. There is a feeling abroad that something more than the mere issue of advertisements to recruits to join the Army might have been done, that more sincerity should have been shown in the appeal than the mere issue of advertisements.

We have relied, and must rely to a great extent, on forces such as the F.C.A. Here, again, there is very serious criticism as to the approach of the Departments and the Government to this force. Much more could be done if greater interest were shown by the Minister. I hope that the new Minister will take a keener interest in the development of this force than has been taken up to the present.

We see too little of our Army. On occasions such as St. Patrick's Day and national holidays of that kind, the people should see more of the Army, which would bring home to them, first, that we have an Army and, secondly, that it is an Army which reflects credit on the country. In that way our people would be encouraged to take part in our defence, in one field or another, whether in the permanent force or in a temporary force such as the F.C.A. or whatever other forces may be organised in future.

Mr. Ireland

I am well aware that this is a continuing Bill and that a permanent Bill is coming later, but there are a few things about defence that cannot be said too often. One is that any solution of defence problems arrived at in 26 out of 32 counties must be partial and, by its very nature, it must be, in the final analysis, a kind of makeshift. The ideal solution will be when the national sentiment of all Ireland is harnessed to the defence of all Ireland.

As to that ideal solution, there are some things that only an inhabitant of the Six Counties can say. What I am saying here is very short. I have said it already inside the Six Counties and also in the columns of English newspapers. I said that we Six-County Protestants especially hold in our hands the key to the solution of the defence problem of our island. What I said, in effect, was that we have duties in Ireland as well as rights and with the first move on our part to join in the defence of Ireland as Irishmen most of the present difficulties would disappear as if by magic. But, until that desirable solution is achieved, I repeat that we should underline the fact that any Defence Bill brought before the Oireachtas of the Twenty-Six Counties must be, in a divided country, only a means towards a partial solution of Ireland's defence problem as a whole. We should underline that and say it every time any Defence Bill is brought before this House.

Mr. M. Hayes

May I say with regard to what Senator Ireland has said, I think we all agree with him? With regard to Senator Hawkins, I agree with him on one point. Perhaps I had better put that first. We would all like, if it were possible without imposing an undue burden on our small Army, to see more of it on the streets. I do not follow Senator Hawkins on some other matters. He wants something done about recruiting, more than advertisements. He thinks advertisements are insincere. Advertisements are not necessarily insincere. I am sure, for example, the Party opposite, when issuing advertisements —and they issued more than nearly any other Party in these islands—were perfectly sincere, although you could make an argument that they were not, but I will not make it for the moment. With regard to interest in the F.C.A., who are the heirs and successors of the L.D.F. of the war, I think the Minister's predecessor took a great interest in the matter and the Minister will continue to take that interest.

It might be of some importance, as a matter of record, to say that that force is under the control of Regular Army officers and that the suggestion that that force should be put on a proper military basis and put under the control of the Regular Army came from a member of Fine Gael and a member of the present Government. That is the origin of the present control of that force. We all agree with Senator Hawkins that that is a force which should be developed, so far as it possibly can be developed, and that it is a force on the efficiency of which a great deal may ultimately depend.

Mr. Colgan

I just want to say a word in connection with the point made by Senator Hawkins supported by Senator Hayes on the matter of letting the public see the Army more frequently. I make a special plea, if anything can be done in that way, for a revival of the tattoo. I think we have had a tattoo only on two occasions in Ballsbridge and the fact that on each occasion it took one about an hour to get into the grounds showed the huge attraction it was from the point of view of the general public. I think there should be a revival of the tattoo and that we should have exhibitions of that nature at fairly regular intervals. Possibly it might mean some extra work for the men concerned because on former occasions I know that the programme was carried out like clockwork and the preparation for it must have entailed a good deal of work. I feel that spectacles of that nature and regular parades of the Army would keep the Army in front of the public and would result in their getting greater respect from the populace generally. I make a special plea that something might be done to bring about a revival of the tattoo.

Mr. Burke

I feel that quite an amount is being done already to popularise the Army. I know that in our town we had a church parade on St. Patrick's Day and the great honour of forming the flag party fell to members of the F.C.A. There was an Army band and three companies of infantry present. They paraded the town, both going to Mass and coming from Mass, on St. Patrick's Day. With regard to tattoos, I think Senator Loughman will bear me out in stating that wherever there was any form of festival or centenary the Army gave it their unstinted help and support. In Clonmel last year we had the celebration of the tercentenary of the Siege of Clonmel and the Army put on a wonderful performance in the form of a tattoo. Many people remarked to me that it was the best recruiting drive the Army had ever had. The soldiers who took part in the celebrations were, I would say, second to none in the world. Hundreds of civilians said to me that they did not think it possible that an exhibition like that could be given by the members of the Irish Army. People who had seen similar performances in Aldershot said they were not at all comparable to the tattoo given by the Irish Army.

During the previous year the Army presented a tattoo in Cavan. I think that if performances of that kind were given in various parts of the country— say, one each year in the different provinces—it would show the people of the country what the Army was doing and the type of material they were turning out. I think it is not quite the fact to say that we do not see enough of the Army. The Army is small and we cannot see them everywhere but in places in which we do see them, I think it is generally agreed that their discipline and their apparent fighting spirit are such as to make a very good impression. I had the honour of serving for the whole emergency period with another member of this House in the L.D.F. and I think the spirit that existed during the emergency still animates the officers and men of the Army and the F.C.A. If there is a little bit of publicity needed, we can get over that difficulty. I again suggest that some effort might be made to present a tattoo each year in the different provinces so that people of the Twenty-Six Counties, and even people from the Six Counties, might have an opportunity of seeing the Irish Army at these various centres, and of forming an idea of what it is capable of.

Mr. Loughman

Since the matter of public parades and tattoos has been mentioned, I should like to join with Senator Burke in paying tribute to the Army for the exhibition which they gave in Clonmel during the celebrations in connection with the tercentenary of the siege. I think nothing could be more impressive than the display which they gave, particularly on the final day, when they marched with all their equipment through the town and the President took the salute. The tattoo itself was seen by thousands of people, notwithstanding the fact that the weather could not have been worse. I think there is every reason to have a repetition of these events throughout the country. In the first place, they portray past history, and, secondly, they give an idea to the people of what their money is being spent on and what the country can do in the matter of defence. I join with Senator Colgan and other Senators who have spoken in suggesting that more frequent displays should be given by the Army in as many places as possible.

Captain Orpen

I wonder whether, in addition to the publicity that has just been suggested for the Army, it would be feasible to have occasionally combined operations with part of the Army and a unit of the F.C.A. It is all very well to depend on local training and a fortnight in camp for the training of the F.C.A. but to arouse real enthusiasm, there is nothing like small combined operations. I know they are rather bothersome things to manage but I believe it would be a valuable incentive within the F.C.A. if occasional operations of that nature could be devised and carried out. After all the Army and the F.C.A. are to form an integrated force and, therefore, when it is possible their operational training should be carried out together. One would have liked to have gone over more of the field of defence, but seeing that we are going to have a comprehensive Army Bill later on and that it is possibly not fair to go into matters of defence with the Minister just after he has taken up his new office, it is better I think to postpone a discussion on the question of defence until such time as the more comprehensive Bill comes before the House.

General MacEoin

I want to thank Senators for allowing me to get my sea legs before they proceed to tackle me on the problems of defence. I think a more opportune time will present itself when the premanent Army Bill comes before the House. Let me say that I am anxious that the Army would be recruited to the strength that will be required to defend the country in any emergency that may arise. It would appear to me that the question of policy is fairly well accepted and, therefore, there is no great difficulty in training a force to meet the requirements of that policy.

On the question of the F.C.A., Senator Hawkins says that we should have more reliance on it. Well, a person like myself might, perhaps, be inclined to have too much reliance on it, because it would be to me the nucleus of a very powerful series of columns all over the country, and, being a column commander of a sort in the past that met with some success, I might be inclined to go too far that way. Therefore, I have to be careful and see that I do not let my feelings run away with my brain and responsibility. I am satisfied that the F.C.A. if properly developed, can play a very important part in the defence of the country. That question has been argued at various times. Of course, it is absolutely essential to have a very efficient and highly trained Army in existence to make the best use of the F.C.A. and so that you would get the greatest benefit out of it. It is also true to say that it would be a very great incentive if, as has been suggested by Senator Orpen, combined operations could be carried out in the way of manoeuvres with the two bodies fitting into each other.

At the moment we have Regular Army officers and N.C.O.s in charge of the F.C.A. all over the country. It is the intention to move in that direction as quickly as possible. For that reason, we are training now to meet a certain objective. There is an object in training to-day, and for that reason it would not be fair or reasonable to divert the Army from training for tattoos. In peace times, when you have a large body of men, tattoos can be very spectacular, but training for them is not of the type or value that you require for the defence of the country. I regret to say that the times in which we live are far different from what they were when the defence and siege of Clonmel took place. As one might say, they fought with kid gloves in those days as compared with the present time.

I agree that the Army should be seen more frequently. I am glad that the Dáil and Seanad have taken that view, because I remember the time when parliamentarians were insisting that the less you saw of the Army the better: that it should be pressed into the background, that the civil authority was supreme, and that the Army should not be pushed too far forward since it might lead to certain other developments. However, I suppose, being a constitutionalist as well as a soldier, I will see to it that the balance is kept fairly well. I will try to give expression, during my term of office, to the views expressed here.

There are many things which, I think, the people should know, but still, in my opinion, it would not be in the interests of the country to discuss them too openly or too freely. We have difficulties. The world is very unsettled, and it is very hard to get our requirements either in men or materials. I will just put it that way. It is not a question of money. As far as this Government is concerned, and as far as I, as the Minister responsible to the Dáil and Seanad am concerned— and responsible, too, to the people of the country for the country's defence —I will see to it that the people will get the best value possible for the money they pay for a very costly form of insurance—and it is an insurance. I am satisfied from what I have seen of the Army since I became Minister— as well, of course, as before that— that, as I said in the Dáil, the Army, if an emergency were to arise, will be able to give a very fine display, that it will, please God, surprise any country that would attempt to interfere with our independence or try to force its view on our people, a view which our people or Parliament do not want.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed: That the remaining stages of the Bill be taken now.

Bill passed through Committee without amendment, reported, received for final consideration and passed.