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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 20 Mar 1951

Vol. 39 No. 9

Central Fund Bill, 1951 (Certified Money Bill) — Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Even those who look for the best in all possible worlds and under the best of all possible Governments, must have had their complacency a little disturbed by the figures revealed in the Estimates for the coming year, especially when one contrasts them with the figures of ultimate expenditure for the year 1942 and onwards. In that year expenditure was a little under £38,000,000. In the year for which we are now budgeting the figures are reversed, and the £38,000,000 becomes £83,000,000. But that is not the worst of it. I am not going to blame the Government. The point to which I am drawing attention is that every year, by reason of the inevitability of some natural law that cannot be escaped, there has been a rise of £3,000,000 or £5,000,000, so that it looks as if every year the expenditure will be increased. It does not seem as if these increases can ever be stopped. In addition to the sum set forth in the Book of Estimates, we have got an indication that we shall be asked to give blank cheques in respect of two services, which will mean the expenditure of a great deal of money. I refer to the mother and child scheme and the social services scheme. What these sums will amount to, nobody can tell. When one thinks of that, and remembers, as one Senator has pointed out, that at the same time we have a terrific rise in local taxation, the burden on the citizen is really becoming almost impossible.

It is true, as the Minister said on one occasion, that high taxation and the spending of public money might not always be a bad thing, but that it must be supported by increased production and increased powers of work. What I regard as the most serious aspect of the present situation is that we are losing largely our powers of work. We have not the same interest in work. Hardly anybody has the same interest in work as compared with the generations which have gone before us. Unless we take stock and try to improve, the position will become worse and worse. Everybody is looking for shorter hours and easier work. That, in its turn, helps to create a rise in the cost of living and, with the burden of taxation, it is likely to come to a crisis. I do not know if anything can be done about the matter. It is possible that the Minister can do something about it, and if it is possible I think he will take steps to cope with the situation.

I suggest that the Minister should go through the Estimates, Department after Department, and see whether he cannot lop off some of the expenditure for which, apparently, we do not think we have got an adequate return. Take, for instance, the Department of External Affairs. I wonder if we have got an adequate return for the £25,000 that has been spent, and that is being budgeted for again, for the Irish News Agency? It is only when the Irish News Agency is responsible for some very undesirable publicity for our country that it comes within our ken. There have been two instances which give one to think about its use. One was its report on the Baltinglass affair and the other was a reference to Aran which is deeply resented by the people there. In the item of news that was circulated in America, the people of Aran were represented as crouching in their huts, so to speak, around a fire of dry cow manure. That may have been a picturesque way of describing the position when the Dún Aengus was held up, because of a strike, from bringing supplies to the people—but why that description should have been sent to America it is hard to tell. I have not seen any of the bulletins issued by the Irish News Agency but if any of them are of that nature I think it will be agreed that we would gain rather than lose by a liquidation of the £25,000 which is being sought for it.

Another item which could, perhaps, be reviewed is the matter of the visits of some of our Ministers to foreign countries—especially when they make pronouncements that are not in accordance with what we know of the facts and that are not calculated to do us any credit. I refer to the remark made by the Minister for External Affairs in Washington to the effect that we in Ireland can see no difference in the matter of orderly democracy between Britain and Soviet Russia. Like the Minister who is present this evening, I am one of those who feel deeply about all that has been done to this nation by Partition. My roots go deep through kindred earth of many generations in the lost territory. I desire to point out that while Britain is largely responsible for Partition she may not altogether be responsible for it. Other facts have to be taken into consideration in connection with this problem.

It is most regrettable that in order to make a point against Partition the Minister should have said that we can see no difference between Britain and Soviet Russia. It is most regrettable at present when, apart from the question of Partition, we are inclined to be friendly with Britain and when we need to be friendly with Britain. At present, Britain is giving employment to a great many of our people. At present we are trying to get coal from Britain and we are trying to get Britons to come to this country in our endeavour to further the tourist industry. Apart from all that, we are trying to make good trade agreements with Britain that will help our economic and agricultural progress. For these reasons it is most regrettable that a Minister should have said what the Minister for External Affairs is reported as having said. I take this opportunity of expressing the opinion that he should not have said it.

Would it not be better to be sure that he said it before we discuss it?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach should have made sure of that.

If he said it, then it is most regrettable. It is no harm that he should know my opinion. I feel as deeply as he on this question of Partition, but do not like our case to be made on inaccurate statements.

Another item in respect of which the Minister for Finance could use his pencil is that of excessive expenditure on advertisements by new Departments. It is a new departure. I think that Ministers can get plenty of publicity without having to pay for it. The Minister for Finance should speak to the other Ministers. He is, as it were, the father of the family. He has the people's money in his trust. He should not allow money to be spent unless there is absolute necessity for it.

On the subject of expenditure, I regret that the Minister has not budgeted more for harbour development. There is only about £275,000 budgeted for capital services this year. To my mind, nothing would give a safer or a richer return than the development of our harbours. This is an island. All our imports into this country and all our exports from this country are transported by sea. More depends on the efficiency of our ports than I can say. One has to think of all the things that might be developed if we had good harbours.

Naturally, I have Galway Harbour in mind. I should like the Minister to give serious attention to the position which exists as regards that harbour and to allocate the development grant for which the commissioners have applied. Galway Harbour is the best natural harbour on the West coast. It is significant that when the first ship was torpedoed in the last war, the Athenia, the survivors were brought not to the nearest port but to Galway. It is also significant that when both the Americans and the Japanese evacuated their nationals from Britain it was to Galway Harbour that their ships came. I think there is a great case to be made for the development of Galway Harbour especially in the position which is now developing. The Minister has been made familiar with the Galway Harbour Development Act of 1935 and of the position which has since arisen. The scheme was divided into two parts but the war came before the second part of it could be undertaken. The trouble is that there was a time-limit. Now the position has changed so much that the Harbour Commissioners cannot raise the money on their surplus revenue while the guarantee by the county council and corporation to service the loan charge does not outlive the period set out in the Act. They have, therefore, been obliged to apply for a grant of £370,000. I wish the Minister would give serious attention to this matter. A very good and clear case has been made, and it would mean a great deal for all Connacht if the second part of the scheme were undertaken. The quicker it would be undertaken the better, because every year the cost would be rising. It would create tremendous employment, help to solve many of the problems with which Connacht is afflicted, and do more to advance the prosperity of the whole country.

Another thing which would richly repay capital expenditure is the construction of new schools. We have a particular obligation to children and parents because of our Compulsory School Attendance Acts, and if we ask them to come to insanitary schools which are described as such by the medical officers of health we are doing a great injustice to these children.

If I had anything to do with the schools I would see to it that the girls of the country got a proper chance of being trained for their role in life of good wives, good mothers and good housekeepers because I can think of nothing that would help the country more than that. We should provide well-paid work for the men and the women they are to marry should be well-trained housekeepers who will be able to run their homes, train their children and rear them in a hygienic way. If we had these good homes and well-trained women we would save a great deal on the hospitals and health services that cost so much. I do not know how the new hospitals in Galway are going to be financed. We are to have £1,000,000 regional hospital and a regional sanatorium costing another £1,000,000. It is most disquieting. If we spent money in other ways we would not have these problems to face and would have a richer and a happier country.

I have a great deal of sympathy with Senator Mrs. Concannon when she speaks of being somewhat appalled at the size of the bill and yet when she gets down to detailed criticism finds that the main things she would like to suggest are some additions. That is not criticism, as I think that is what most of us feel. We would like to see more of the things we are convinced are essential and at the same time we would like to see a smaller bill. It seems to me that the size of the bill is no proper criterion. The criterion is first of all the value received for the money and secondly whether we have sufficient resources and wealth to meet it. If we have resources they should be spent and well spent, but if we have not got them we would be heading for disaster.

Senator Mrs. Concannon made certain references to a report of a speech by the Minister for External Affairs. If he said what she says he said I completely agree with her, but I am not prepared on one newspaper report to believe that he said exactly what is stated in the Press. I myself last summer attended a Brotherhood International Conference in Paris and spoke on the subject of Partition. When I came back I found a newspaper cutting of five or six lines: "Senator says Ireland is suffering." Whatever I said about Partition I did not want to convey the impression that we were suffering or starving or that we were a lot of refugees, an impression that could easily have been taken from the report. I think it is right and natural that we should object to statements that appear in the Press but we should be careful before accepting that the Minister said that.

Is not the Irish News Agency responsible?

I only saw it in the Irish Press and I do not know if the Irish News Agency is responsible.

They should be.

If they are I would not believe in their infallibility any more than any other news agency. Statements are often cut and turned so that they can do a great deal of harm. When that happens in a political debate between Parties one is inclined to laugh at it but when a Minister representing the country is reported as saying something that could do a great deal of harm I will not without proof accept that he said it. That is not Irish policy and does not coincide with the views of any Party here. None of us would suggest for one second that democracy in Britain is in any sense the same as the so-called democracy in Russia. The fact that we might have quarrels with Britain about partition or about lesser things such as coal is no reason why anyone should make that statement. I am not disagreeing with what Senator Mrs. Concannon said——

It appeared in the Irish Times. One of the interviewers was so astonished by what the Minister said that he asked if he meant it and he practically repeated it—I am also repeating what I read in the Irish Times to-day.

It is rather strange and somewhat amusing that Senator Mrs. Concannon read it in the Irish Times. I glanced at it in the Irish Times and as I had the Irish Times at home I had not time to read it. I had the Irish Press in my office, and looked at it more carefully and in the Irish Press it did not seem so bad as it seemed from a casual glance at the Irish Times, but it convinced me that whatever the Minister said he did not say the actual words in the brief form given there.

When we have not definite information it would be better not to discuss the matter further. It is very far away from the Central Fund Bill and there will be another opportunity for discussing it if it is either true or false.

The only reason I mentioned it was that I felt that we should not have it go out from this House that we necessarily accept it. If the statement was made we would probably agree on the matter as it is not one for Party feeling.

In the financial debates in this House there is, naturally and properly, a very considerable amount of latitude and it is possible to raise a large number of subjects. I generally confine myself to one or two rather than follow a large number. I want to say a word or two on a question which took up a good deal of time in the Dáil on the Vote on Account, the general question of prices and profits, which has a very considerable bearing on the question of what our capacity is to pay the bill. It was expected under present circumstances that we would have this debate, but it seems to me that there has been so much talk about profits, both in and out of Parliament, that the public mind has become somewhat confused and some people seem to regard profits as something evil which should be abolished. The Minister's approach to the question, as I read it in the report on March 8th, seemed to me an eminently reasonable one. Although the newspapers gave a good deal of space to it, it was not very accurately reported and I would suggest that Senators would do well to read the report.

I believe that the time has come when a serious attempt should be made to study the whole question of price and profit control and, as far as possible, to remove it from Party political controversy. For years I have urged successive Ministers for Finance to set up a committee or commission to inquire into and report on the best methods of taxing trade and industry. I made it very clear that the object of such a committee should not be either to reduce or increase the taxation of trade or industry, but rather to find a more equitable basis for taxation.

I pointed out that the first task of such a committee would be to suggest methods of ascertaining normal or reasonable profits as, until this is done, it would be impossible to propose more equitable methods of taxation. I dealt with this at length in previous speeches, and I do not propose now to take up the time of the House by repeating all the details. I desire once again to urge on the Government the need at the present time for the appointment of such a committee or commission. It appears to me that there are three main reasons why some such body should be set up at an early date.

Firstly, it is clear that during the next few years very large sums of money will have to be found by way of taxation, and that trade and industry will have to bear a considerable share of such taxation. Both the Government and the Opposition are in favour of very heavy expenditure, and the main difference between them is that the Opposition thinks that a larger part of the total Bill should be met at once by taxation. Secondly, various recent statements by Ministers have made it very clear that the Government has no intention of allowing State interference or control to prevent traders from making fair and reasonable profits. I suggest that it will be difficult, if not impossible, to carry out that policy fairly unless some general agreement can be reached as to how fair and reasonable profits are to be ascertained.

The Minister for Finance has reminded us that every year he receives figures showing the combined profits of various industrial or trading groups for the purpose of preparing his Budget. These profits are presumably the profits as shown by income-tax assessments. If, as I believe, the profits as assessed for income-tax are not the actual profits, such as would be approved by any competent accountant, then the figures given to the Minister are inaccurate to some extent and may be misleading. By actual profits I mean the balance of the income over the expenditure in any year after provision has been made for annual depreciation and for the amortisation of all money spent on assets which will be used up in the making of profits.

The Minister for Finance made it very clear in his speech that he was opposed to an excess profits tax and that its re-imposition at the present time would cause considerable difficulty. This part of his speech was in-accurately reported in the Press. Personally I am in agreement with him, but I would not be opposed to a graduated tax on business profits, by which normal profits would be taxed at a low rate and excessive profits at a high rate. I do not see how this could be done fairly unless some equitable basis could be found for assessing normal profits, and I submit that this would require expert and careful examination.

I am somewhat concerned at the effect that some recent speeches about profits have had on the public mind. It is, I believe, important that the public should appreciate that adequate profits are essential if this State is to achieve any degree of prosperity, and maintain a reasonably high standard of living. There is a danger that in our hunt for profiteers we may injure our whole economy and fail in our object, which is to develop our industrial production on a basis of adequate but not excessive profits. If the principle of private enterprise, which is generally accepted in Ireland, is to be maintained, we must solve the problem of profit and price control in a satisfactory manner. Companies or individuals who take advantage of exceptional circumstances, such as short supply, to make profits which are quite unnecessary are the enemies of private enterprise, just as much as those who want everything controlled by the State, and hope to achieve this by squeezing profits so low that they will injure the efficiency of industry and force the State to take them over.

A large section of the public seems to believe that excessive profits are being made by every Irish industry. I do not believe that this is true of the majority of our industrial concerns. I am inclined to believe that some of the scare about excessive profits is due to the scarcity of information given by some of our public companies. Profit figures are quoted in the newspapers, which may seem to the casual reader to be high, because no information is given as to the capital employed in the business or to the total value of the production. A few companies have recently published figures showing how each £1 of the price at which they sell their goods is made up. These figures showed how much of each £1 was represented by profits, whether distributed to shareholders or retained in the business. I would like to see this practice adopted more generally.

In my opinion it is far more important for the public to know what percentage of the price is represented by net profit than to be given total figures which may be misleading. Where profits are grouped together I think the same kind of information should be given to the public. Where figures are issued by the grouping together of a large number of businesses I think figures should be given for the lowest and the highest as well as the average. The Minister for Finance referred to one group which had a profit of £600,000 in 1939 and over £2,000,000 in 1949. With great respect to the Minister, I would suggest to him that these figures do not really tell us very much. It may be proof of gross profiteering, or it may not. If the capital employed is larger and if the total output of the group had increased by four times during the period the profit might be quite reasonable. What I would like to know is the relation of this profit to the price of the article which the group supplies to the public.

According to the 1949 Statistical Abstract the paid up capital of companies on the Register of Companies was £42,112,000 in 1936. By 1939 it had risen to £50,845,000 and in 1948 it was £72,760,000. It is probably, higher now. While I know that this increase may partly be due to the formation into companies of businesses which were not previously limited companies, I am satisfied that there has been a very substantial increase in the capital employed in business during the last 15 years.

Increased total profits as a result of increased investment and production is something highly desirable, not something to be deprecated. If we cannot increase the national income, I do not know how we can continue to meet an annual bill of over £80,000,000. Our aim should be not to decrease the total profit made by agriculture or by industry, but see that all classes of the people benefit by any increase in total profits.

I think we must face up to the fact that under present international conditions we are not likely to have normal competition in trade for a long time to come. For good or evil, Government interference is likely to continue, and in some form or other price or profit control is inevitable. At the same time we must recognise that we have not yet discovered any really satisfactory method by which this can be carried out. One reason, as I have already pointed out, is that we have no generally accepted standard of what are reasonable and necessary profits. Another reason is that we have so far failed to secure the full co-operation either of the public or of trade and industry. The previous Government had a plan which was embodied in a Bill entitled the Industrial Efficiency and Prices Bill. In a recent debate in this House we were told that the Bill still represents the policy of the Party in opposition. The unique feature of this Bill was the appointment of an individual—presumably a civil servant— who was to exercise a continuous supervision over the efficiency of every industry making an article protected by a tariff or import restriction. As the Government can protect any industry, whether it asks for it or not, this could include every Irish industry, if the Government of the day wished to do so. To my mind this was the most objectionable form of State interference ever introduced into a Parliament in a democratic country. The Government could, under the Bill, on the advice of a committee of civil servants, interfere with industry to a practically unlimited extent—it could even interfere with its purchases of raw materials— its management—capital structure— methods of selling and employment of labour.

A case can be made for State owned and controlled industry under certain circumstances, but I do not believe that any good case can be made for private enterprise controlled and managed by the State.

This Bill fortunately did not become law, but its introduction was an unfortunate reflection on the efficiency at any rate of a part of Irish industry which did a good deal of harm. I do not believe that Irish industry generally is inefficient. The chairman of one of our largest distributing companies recently stated that, in the majority of cases, home manufactured goods were better value than those imported. He added that new Irish industries had greatly helped to cushion the impact of rising prices. I am satisfied that this statement is true and that most of the attacks which have been made in recent years have been quite unjustified. The unfortunate Industrial Efficiency Bill provided a regrettable headline for these attacks on the efficiency of Irish industry, but members of all parties have made speeches which tend to create a want of confidence in Irish industry which was not based on facts.

Until this year the present Government continued the system of price and profit control in force when they came into office. It worked quietly and although it received little publicity manufacturers and traders knew that it was in force and that their profits were regularly examined. The selling prices of a large number of articles were fixed either by a specific price or by a fixed profit margin. In the case of many articles of clothing the profit permitted is considerably lower than that allowed for similar articles in Great Britain under a Socialist government. I do not suggest that this system is entirely satisfactory, but its faults did not warrant the somewhat wild criticism indulged in by many persons, especially towards the end of last year when prices began to rise.

When the Government appointed a new Prices Advisory Body I hoped that it would add to public confidence and co-operation. It is too soon to pass judgement on its work, but the reports in the Press of the public sittings have disappointed me. The object of an examination in public is not to place manufacturers or traders in the dock, but rather to consider evidence which will assist in fixing a fair selling price having regard to all circumstances.

The majority of manufacturers, whom I have consulted, are quite willing to co-operate in any fair system of price or profit control. A great many of them recognise, as I do, that it is not only in their interest but also in the interest of the public that they should do so. Some of them fear that confidential information which they have given to the Government may be made public, and thus given to their competitors. I feel sure the Prices Advisory Body will respect the promises made by Ministers that this will not be done. It is necessary that it should not be if you are to have the co-operation which I believe is necessary.

In questions affecting supplies and industrial development generally there is a good deal of co-operation between the Government and Irish industry. The value of this co-operation is very great and, as a general rule, I think it is being carried out by satisfactory methods. I feel that we need somehow to bring the same spirit of friendly co-operation into the question of price and profit control, and I believe it can be done, but it will take time and patience. I would like to appeal to Deputies and Senators of all parties to use restraint in discussing this difficult question. Successful and profitable industrial development is an essential part of our economy. Let us be careful not to kill the goes that lays the golden egg by unfair or irresponsible criticism.

Deputy Lemass is reported to have said that a fair test of the efficiency of Irish industry was its capacity to produce and sell in Ireland goods of equal quality at the same price as those goods were produced and sold in England or other countries. In general terms, I agree with that statement, though I would prefer to say at the price at which similar goods can be sold in countries where conditions are similar and where the price of essential raw materials, wages and conditions of employment are substantially the same. An industry which is a large user of coal, for instance, may be handicapped in competition with a similar industry in England. In my opinion, Irish industry at the present time can stand up to that test better than ever before, and my advice to the Government is that industries which are producing quality goods at a competitive price should be left as free as possible from State interference. I have dealt with this question on this occasion, partly because of the debate in the other House on the Vote on Account and the way in which the matter was given publicity, and partly because I believe the problem of prices and profits has an important bearing on our whole economy and, in particular, on our capacity to meet the taxation which is necessary to pay for our estimated expenditure in the coming year.

Because it is late, I shall try to be brief, but I am sorry that such an important Bill as this should have to be taken in a hurry, as it gives us the one opportunity we have in the year to discuss calmly and without Party bias, if we wish, the political economy of the whole country. The Minister is asking us for £29,375,120. He is merely asking to-night for an instalment in order to oil the machinery to keep things going until ultimately he gets the total sum he is budgeting for, about £83,000,000, including what he proposes to borrow. He tells us to-night how much he wants on account and what he intends to do ultimately with the total amount of £83,000,000. Not until later on will he tell us how he is going to extract that from us, but we may be certain that, however gently he goes about it, it will not be a painless extraction and none of us will like it. Some people may think that, because Labour are always accused of wanting to nationalise everything, every time the Estimates go up it is a victory for Labour. I think it is disastrous for any country that public expenditure should go up unless the public ability to meet it by increased production and increased prosperity generally is there to justify it. I do not believe that State expenditure can ever be as economic as expenditure by private individuals or groups of private individuals. State expenditure is the most wasteful form of expenditure that I know of.

The economics of the Labour Party may seem to be unorthodox, but then we had an unorthodox training. Yet, I find myself this evening practically in agreement with everything that Senator Professor George O'Brien has said. We had to learn our economics and we had to study them. It is one subject upon which no one can accuse us of being ignorant. The trade union movement and the Labour movement forced its way forward by knowing something about economics. Indeed, we knew more about real economics 20, 30, 40 and 50 years ago than the professors did. What we were told by the textbooks and the university professors was wrong has now proved to be right, and it is the textbooks and the university professors that have had to change their tune; and we have been justified to a certain extent.

I do not agree with Senator Professor O'Brien when he says that an increase in taxation on the import of luxuries would do three things: firstly, increase revenue; secondly, reduce the gap between our imports and our exports; and, thirdly, send up the cost of living. Theoretically it might do all those things, but I imagine that if the tax were high enough to be revenue producing it would have the effect of limiting the importation of luxury goods, provided we could define what luxury goods are. You would, therefore, collect over a smaller import practically the same amount of taxation which we collect at the moment from a low tax on luxury goods. I do believe, however, that if there are luxury imports they should be taxed rather than essential commodities, even if those essential commodities be imported commodities. By all means if we must raise money let us raise it on luxuries first, but the difficulty is to define what a luxury is. One man's necessity may be another man's luxury, or, if I might put it this way, one maiden's necessity might be another maiden's luxury. The State when it collects its taxes, whatever way it gets them, and even when it borrows money is merely taxing Peter and Paul to subsidise Paul and Peter. It amounts to no more than that. One must have a staff to collect the money and a staff to distribute it and if £1 is collected the full £1 can never be distributed because a large proportion of it is lost in the process of distribution. I believe —I may perhaps be accused of being an unorthodox Labour man—that we can go too far with State services for the community. The more the State steps in and insists on doing for the people what the people should do for themselves the more we shall make our people thriftless and unprogressive. I say that knowing exactly what it means and what it implies. It is essential that certain things shall be done by the State for the public since otherwise they will be left undone; but I would prefer to see every member of the community willing and able to work for himself and for his family rather than that he should be prepared to exist in a state of semi-poverty to qualify himself for State assistance.

I notice that in the money to be raised there is a sum of £2,000,000 for food subsidies, £3,500,000 for agricultural subsidies and an amount, which I have not calculated, for housing and other subsidies, plus a nominal sum for fuel subsidies. Possibly they will amount to more than that. But that bears out what I have been saying. That £5,500,000 has first to be collected and it has then to be given back to us in the form of subsidies. It is inevitable that that should happen since subsidies have to be given for certain foodstuffs that cannot be purchased owing to the high price without a subsidy.

One Senator spoke this evening about the import price of timber and sugar. He pointed out that we are paying more for imported timber and sugar than we pay the producer at home. I see nothing wrong in that. The timber from abroad and the sugar from abroad contain not merely the cost of production but also the cost of transport, the cost of rehandling and the cost of I do not know how many profits in the interval. The price is an abnormal one because the situation is abnormal. If it takes "x" to purchase a lb. of sugar or a cubic foot of timber from abroad that does not mean that the producer here should get an identical sum for an identical article, no matter what it costs him to produce it. Where we can produce cheaper than we can import we should produce, otherwise our economics are at fault. If we can produce and pay the producer a reasonable price for his commodity and a price that is lower than that at which we can import the same commodity, it would be bad economy if we did not produce that article ourselves. If we have to supplement home production temporarily by imports at a higher price that is no reason why the imported price should immediately become the home price. I think that type of false economy should be examined. It can do a lot of harm. If we argue that way, somebody else will argue the same principle in reverse: he will say that when we can buy sugar from Cuba at 1½d. per lb. then we will lower the price of sugar produced here to 1½d. per lb. and that argument would militate very seriously against the producer of beet here.

I disagree with Senator Professor O'Brien, if I understood him correctly, when he says he does not see any virtue in a savings campaign. I am not sure if he said that exactly.

Mr. O'Farrell

Senator Professor O'Brien must blame himself and not me for mishearing him because he did not speak sufficiently loudly for his voice to carry. I think one of the things we need most here is a savings campaign. I think the State should undertake a savings campaign. If more money were saved it would be an advantage since it would help to some extent to bring down prices because through the medium of a savings campaign we could overcome this disability of too much money chasing too little goods. The tendency at the moment is to spend what you have because to-morrow will be another day. I know that it will be argued against any such campaign that there is no good in saving money when the value of the £ is falling and will continue to fall; better spend your £ to-day when it is worth 15/- than save it up until the year after next when it may only be worth 5/-. There is a good deal of talk about money losing its purchasing power and depreciating in value. Constant talk of depreciation will not induce anybody to save.

There are one or two other things, and then I am finished. Somebody suggested that the State should control the cost of living. If it was not suggested here to-day, it has been suggested frequently in other places. The State can control the cost of living only when it controls the standard of living. The State cannot control my standard of living unless the State dictates to me what I may buy and what I may not buy. That is a dangerous policy to go on. The cost of living is always an argument that we bandy from one side to the other. Perhaps the cost of living is going up; perhaps it is remaining stationary—I am not going to argue that point now. I do know the standard of living is going up, and rightly, and I think it is a mistake certain people make sometimes when they base their arguments for better remuneration and better conditions, on the assumption that the cost of living is going up. Let them be honest and say: "We want a higher standard of living; we are entitled to it, and we will work for it." The standard of living in this country has risen in my lifetime. The cost of keeping up the standard of living has gone up. It is quite a different standard of living from what it was years ago, because some of the goods regarded as necessaries now were not even thought about them. Now we could not live without them.

I wonder will we, within any reasonable space of time, come to the point that Senator Douglas was talking about, when we will discover what are fair profits? If he thinks it is not equally the interest of the employee as it is the interest of the employer to have a fair profit in an industry then he misjudges us. Every worker must want to see the job he is engaged in pay a reasonable profit. If it does not, it cannot pay wages. But what is a reasonable profit? You will never discover it by setting up a commission and you will never discover what a reasonable profit is by setting up a prices tribunal.

No matter how well-intentioned or informed the tribunal members may be, the fairest, the best, the surest and the quickest way to have an equitable profit in any industry is to do what has often been advocated and seldom tried—to see by some means, wherever it is practicable, that the workers will get a share in the management. I know it has been ridiculed and denounced, but if you do not give the workers a share in the control and management of industry, then industry will never be efficiently managed; either the one side will mismanage it for one reason or another, or the workers themselves will neither have the knowledge nor the inducement to do what they could to improve conditions in that industry.

If you do not give the workers some voice in the control of industry, where-ever it is possible, then you are forcing the State into a policy of nationalisation. Nationalisation is the only alternative way in which the workers will get a nominal voice in the control of industry. If you do not allow the workers to have some control of industry, if that industry is nationalised you will lose your control of it and the workers, through their representatives, through the State, will control it wholly. I do not think that is a good policy. If you give the workers a share in the control and management of industry, you will be ensuring that they will take a greater interest in the work they are doing and they will be as anxious as you are to see that the industry pays its way.

It is not sufficient that the workers and the employers should come to an agreement as to what profits will be made. All profits, or practically all profits, would disappear if there were not wage earners at one end of the scale. Take the wage earners out of any factory and it will be as effective in closing it as if you were to take all the capital out of it. But you can have the position in which workers and employers are both satisfied that they will get paid at the expense of the public, if the price is too high. That operates in monopolies.

If we want to be serious about these things, there is not any reason, because we happen to sit on different sides of the House or because we come in here under different flags, one carrying the farmers' banner, another as the representative of the labourers and others as representing business interests, why there should not be a time when we can have a common interest and discuss these things together. Such a time is afforded us in the consideration of this Central Fund Bill. I think it gives us an opportunity, without trying to make Party capital, of saying things really worth while saying. Even though the audience is small, somewhere, some of the opinions we give expression to many take effect.

Senator Douglas was held up for attempting to refer to what the Minister for External Affairs is reported to have said. I will not attempt to go along that line. I can imagine the words attributed to him having a completely different and justifiable meaning if one heard them as they were uttered, so let us not go into that to-night.

Both Senator Douglas and Senator O'Farrell have spoken at some length of profits and prices control. Senator O'Farrell, concluding his speech, spoke of the good that would result if the workers were given a say in the management and control of industry. I can give one instance in which the worker has a particular say, and that is Córas Iompair Eireann. Perhaps it is not long enough working to be able to judge or to give it a fair trial, but I do not see that there is any great improvement in it since we had Labour represented, the workers represented, on the management.

In my opinion, the workers at present practically control the management of industry, because no industry can keep open at the present time if it does not play evenly with the men employed in it. Senator O'Farrell mentioned that we have not monopolies here. To my mind, we have monopolies here. First of all, we have them in the way in which the workers exercise control in industry. We also have them in the way in which groups of manufacturers exercise control both in relation to output and prices. I think we have monopolies also in respect of trade organisations. I will put it this way, that the retail and even the wholesale traders get a reasonable profit from the articles that they market and sell.

Senator Douglas asked for a commission or a committee to examine the question of profits and prices control. To my mind, such a commission or committee could be much more usefully employed examining all the monopolies I have mentioned. I have in mind now the position of trade organisations, trade union organisations and manufacturers' organisations in the matter of the control of industry. I have a feeling that very often these organisations are used to get the greatest amount possible out of the industry, either for the workers or for the management, and it all comes in the end out of the consumer. I am just mentioning these things as they come to my mind after listening to Senator Douglas and Senator O'Farrell.

Senator O'Callaghan mentioned the increased prices that were paid for timber and sugar which came into this country from abroad. Senator O'Farrell did not, I think, seems to get the idea Senator O'Callaghan had. I think Senator O'Callaghan's idea in connection with the timber was that the Irish Timber Producers should get a fair price for the timber which was in our forests, that the prices paid for timber were not high enough and that if we were prepared to give a higher price to outside countries, at least, we should give a fair price to people who grew timber at home. The same thing applied in connection with sugar, although I would remind Senator O'Farrell that Senator O'Callaghan stated that the farmers were agreeable and happy to produce large quantities of sugar beet because they were satisfied, more or less, with the agreement which the sugar factories made with them regarding prices. He perhaps did suggest that a greater price still should be paid to them——

Surely, the sense of the speech was that we ought to pay Cuban prices? What else did he mean?

I think he meant you could give a greater price to the farmers.

Although he said the sugar beet at the moment is at a good price. What was he talking about?

He gave the case of milk and said that in 1946, the milk producers got a certain price for their milk and at that time it was considered only a barely reasonable price by every party and he stated that the cost of production had increased by 50 per cent.

Since when?

Do you not realise that production has gone up and up ever since? People do not go in for a loss. Why should people continue to go more and more into production if the price is not good?

I do not know. I am not a farmer and I am not going to discuss that question. I know of several costs which have increased. I certainly know that. I know the rates have increased, farm wages have increased and it seems to me, as a person who buys milk, that there is a reasonable case at the present time for an increase in the price which the farmers should get.

It is not being reduced.

The suggestion was made that they should agree to a reduction.

That was last year, and go in for greater production—a sort of Woolworth policy.

I do not know; I will leave that question to the farmers. That is the idea I got from Senator O'Callaghan's speech and I would not have referred to it only for the construction Senator O'Farrell put on it.

I listened to Senator Baxter and was glad to note that he had lost the pretty aggressive mood he had last year. I felt that he was more or less on the defensive this year and that he actually in his speech made, what Senator O'Farrell would say, a sermon to us on this side of the House. He told us on one occasion that we should pipe down on political propaganda and made a particular case that we should not concentrate on attacks on a particular Minister. The particular Minister has, as he has admitted himself, a pretty vigorous tongue and if a man gives he should be prepared to take. I am going to give you two very recent statements of the same Minister. One of them was in the Dáil on the seed and breed of a particular Deputy. I thought it was a very ugly statement.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Why do you discuss outside matters?

I am just referring to this question that we should pipe down on attacks on Ministers, and I am going to give a reason why we may make these attacks. When a group of milk producers in this country asked the Minister to receive them he is reported as having stated that he would not deal with these gentlemen at the end of a 40-foot pole; that they were a group of Fianna Fáil opportunists. From my own knowledge of these same gentlemen they were not Fianna Fáil supporters at all, but just that they did not happen to fit in with the Minister's idea of things. I mention these things to ask Senator Baxter if he would direct some portion of his sermon sometimes to these Ministers.

I might add that Senator Douglas stated that Deputies and Senators also should use restraint. That is actually a quotation from what he said this evening. He might very usefully have included Ministers in that statement because, to my mind, a goodly portion of the statement made by Senator Douglas this evening could have been addressed to at least one or two or, perhaps, three Ministers. Why he should concentrate on the ordinary Deputy and Senator I do not know because they are not the most vigorous in this matter of personal abuse at all.

Some of them are not too bad.

I quite agree.

It does not be all talk either. Ministers are expected to turn the other cheek.

Senator Douglas certainly gave one of the Ministers a pretty fair trimming this evening without mentioning him. I was very glad, I must admit.

I want to talk on the question of fuel. Of course, the winter season is practically over. Suggestions have been made to me and I have seen them made by public bodies that certain places should be made coal areas, and others recommended that they should be rationed. The main thing we are concerned about is an abundance of fuel so that we will not be faced with a fuel shortage again. Last year, Senator Baxter told us the farmers could not get their turf out of the bogs. It would be pretty difficult to get the turf out of the bogs after June.

I know a number of people who were accustomed to cutting turf. It was because of the assurance they got from people who should be able to give these assurances that there was no danger of fuel shortages that they were careless about cutting turf last year. The result was that they were going around with barrows looking for coal during Christmas time and January. Since then, coal has become more plentiful but the price has become so high as to almost make rationing unnecessary. I was going to suggest that if coal is to be rationed it would be necessary at the same time— that is if coal is to be sold in areas with which I am acquainted—to introduce some system of subsidy for that particular article. If that is not done I really believe that many of the people will not be able to purchase it. Rationed coal at 11/- per cwt. imposes too great a burden on poor people. I certainly think that, if the coal supply is limited, it should be rationed, and similarly with the turf supply, but, at whatever cost, the Government should see to it that it will be available at a price which the poorest of our people can pay. It will be no hardship on the people who have money if they have to contribute in taxation to the cost of it, but it will be impossible for the poor people to buy it, if it is not done. I do not know the conditions of turf production in the turf producing areas, but I hope abundant turf will be produced because we can now see that we must rely on what we produce ourselves if we are to keep the fires lighted next winter.

Listening to Senator Douglas on the Prices and Efficiency Bill, I had the feeling that, if he were making a case for the Bill, he would do much better, and I felt that he would be more at home making a case for it. He gave the extreme story of the civil servant being recommended by another group of civil servants and going to a factory and interfering and so on, if the article being produced was not up to a particular standard. For many years, we have been listening to stories about the inferiority of certain products of Irish factories.

All of us who were interested in the industrial revival were always anxious that these factories should produce goods as good as those produced elsewhere and at a price which would be reasonable, taking into consideration, as Senator Douglas puts it, the resources of the country and the reasonable needs of the workers employed. If we found that some factories were exploiting the people, were turning out inferior goods, perhaps not paying their workmen reasonable wages and were trying to extort too high a price for their articles, I do not think that any good industry, any industry which was doing the reverse would have any need to worry about that civil servant or the group of people advising him. I rather think that the number of factories affected would be very small and I think that the fears of Senator Douglas in that connection were more or less unnecessary.

Senator Baxter spoke about not expecting the Minister for Agriculture to be a prophet and suggested that nobody could be a prophet on the matter of rain interfering with the production of wheat, milk or other commodities. He said it was most unreasonable to expect anybody to be a prophet, but, at the end of his speech, he made a prophecy which many people, hearing it, would laugh at, with regard to the result of a general election. He made the prophecy that there was no hope of there being any change, if a general election did take place. He became a prophet himself in that connection and I venture to suggest that he was a false prophet.

Captain Orpen

It always strikes me as curious that, each year, as we find the sum of money in the Book of Estimates increasing, it is said that the burden on the community is becoming unbearable, but yet, when we look at another set of figures purporting to give the national income, we find that the figures in the Book of Estimates seem to be moving most remarkably in step with the figure given for the national income. For example, the amount in the Book of Estimates in 1942 was £38,000,000 and it is now £83,000,000. The national income in 1944, the nearest year I can get, was £253,000,000 and is now £352,000,000. In 1938, the figure was £158,000,000, which gives a very rough idea that public expenditure is more or less moving with the estimated national income.

In the White Paper on National Income and Expenditure recently issued, we find some very interesting phenomena. In Table 7, dealing with expenditure of personal income in the main categories in 1938 and 1949, we find a rise in food which is slightly over double. Much the same ratio is to be found in relation to alcoholic beverages and tobacco but clothing, on the other hand, has increased nearly two and a half times. I do not propose to weary the Seanad with all these figures, but, while some of these expenditures have doubled, the figure for gross personal rent has remained almost stationary. Travelling has increased about four times and amusements are over double. The following table, Table 8, gives the same categories of personal expenditure calculated back to 1938 prices and virtually gives you the change in volume as between 1938 and 1949. We find a slight increase in the volume of consumption of consumed goods at market prices. There is an increase in food, but the biggest increases are in respect of services which, presumably, are less essential than food. In other words, every item in this analysis tends to show that the consumption of nonessential goods and services has increased more than consumption of the essential ones. I say that is all to the good. That is a very firm indicator of a rise in the standard of living and it is something we should welcome.

I do not think that I will go further into the information given in this White Paper on National Income but one should bear in mind, when complaints are made that the cost of living—not the cost-of-living index—has increased substantially over the years, that one should relate that to the movement over the period of the national income. The burden of the cost of living on any individual is primarily a function of his income. Naturally, in a period when prices have changed, it is quite clear that the cost of living, measured in prices, cannot remain static and, unless the consumption is less, expenditure on goods and services must go up.

I have one complaint to make about the Book of Estimates in that the ordinary Senator who is not an accountant finds the gravest difficulties in disentangling to-day the various subsidies that appear to be in operation. They are hidden away in all sorts of curious places. As they have reached a very substantial amount, I feel it is not quite right that they should be so obscurely hidden.

If we take merely the so-called food subsidies, the subsidies on bread, flour, sugar, tea, butter and other items, they are, of course, in every sense of the word, purely consumer subsidies. It is well to stress that point because, in the early days of the sugar-beet growing, clearly, it was the farmer or the grower of sugar-beet who was assisted by way of subsidy and, for many years, sugar could have been bought from outside at a lower price than obtained in this country. Now the reverse is taking place or, at any rate, let us say, so that there will not be an argument, you cannot buy sugar outside the country as cheap as it is manufactured in our sugar factories. I think they claim that in or about £44 a ton, in bags, ex factory, is the home price of sugar of 98 polarisation.

Recently, we find, by going into the open world market, that the various subsidies and stabilisation funds in respect of butter have, at any rate, ceased to be subsidies to the producer. Anything that is now paid comes in purely as a consumer subsidy.

One would wish that the methods of dealing with bread and flour, the subsidy scheme and repayment scheme, was a little less obscure. Some of us have tried to wade through the report but the more we delve into it the more difficult we find it is to see what is happening, how everything is working. The only feature that does emerge from that report which I think it is as well to draw attention to, is, that it seems to me that the method has been devised to secure a fixed return on the capital invested in flour mills and wheat mills irrespective of the efficiency or inefficiency of the concern. That is the only conclusion I can come to from reading the report.

On the question of subsidies, this Government inherited from its predecessor a curious form of consumer subsidy, a subsidy down to a fixed price. It was thought necessary that butter, sugar, and so on, should be always subsidised down to a certain price, and that policy has more or less continued. I would very much like to hear the argument that seeks to justify subsidisation of any essential commodity down to a fixed price—in terms of pounds, shillings and pence, of course —at a time when prices are rapidly rising and, fortunately, at the same time, incomes are rising or, if one likes to regard it as such, when there is a change in purchasing power. It seems to me that quite powerful arguments are required to justify a method of subsidisation which attempts to fix a price at a constant level when everything else is moving rapidly. However, perhaps it is an inherited characteristic that is unalterable.

There are several other features of our financial position on which I should like to say a word or two. I should like to deal with the question of the £30,000,000 gap between imports and exports, allowing for the invisibles, but not taking into consideration the £8,000,000 correction which the Minister for Finance told us was due to the change in the terms of trade. Suppose we take the values of agricultural exports and industrial exports in 1950. In this calculation I am making, I am giving credit, as agricultural exports, to some things that are sometimes looked upon as purely industrial. There is portion of Guinness' exports, which is in the form of an agricultural product, and I am crediting agriculture with that. This rough calculation shows that agricultural exports in value in 1950 were just about three times that of industry—£54.5 millions as against £15.9 millions. If we look at the other end of the picture, the import figures, out of total imports of £160,000,000, £13.7 millions are indubitably imported for agricultural purposes and £146,000,000 for everybody else but including imports to people who are engaged in agriculture which are generally distributed. What I want to bring out in these figures is that we have got this £30,000,000 gap; who is going to fill the gap?

As I see things in agriculture, we have provided three times the exports that industry can claim. Though I have not made any calculations, I should very much like to know what the raw materials imported for industry actually amount to. Though our industrial production since the termination of the war has risen in a very remarkable manner, I should like to see if possible a more rapid rise in exports. While the volume of agricultural exports has risen, to alter the volume of production of agriculture is a slow process; you can comparatively easily substitute one product for another in industry but you cannot make a rapid alteration in certain classes of animals. If we are going to fill this £30,000,000 gap in a reasonable amount of time, we cannot very easily fill it by means of export of agricultural goods because the growth is too slow. If you could add 5 per cent. in volume per year you would be doing remarkably well. If industry can fill that gap, seeing that it has some chance of rapid expansion, well and good, but surely what we should look to to-day is to see if it is possible to reduce some of these imports. I think the Minister in his opening statement in the other House rather drew attention to the possibility that some of these imports could not be classed as essential commodities, that there was a considerable amount of imports that possibly were non-essential, and, in the light of the fact that we had this comparatively large adverse balance, he suggested that we should do something to close it. by restricting the imports of non-essentials. I think that if the public knew a little more about our position, that we were importing non-essentials, possibly a certain amount of curtailment in imports of that type of goods would come about, without having recourse to actual restrictive and prohibitive methods.

There is just one other matter I want to mention. We have this large number of consumer subsidies. I have asked to hear an argument for the justification of our subsidy down to a fixed price. I am now going to refer to one other system of subsidisation which I should like to call the hidden subsidy. Very appropriately it deals with hides. I do not know exactly when the methods of keeping down the price of hides in this country was first devised, in order, as I am told, to assist boot manufacturers. The boot industry may require assistance; I do not know but I do question the method, if my information is correct, of what I might call the hidden subsidy on hides. There are one or two other cases where assistance is given to one section of the community or to one activity, in an obscure manner. If we are to help an industry in its early stages or any section of the community at any time, I do not believe we should hide the process. We should make quite clear what is being done. I have been a rather long time complaining about this obscurity to the ordinary man in the strect who is not an accountant. How much help the community at large is getting over these food subsidies is not made as plain as it should be. We know it is difficult sometimes to find out what other help is being given to various activities of sections of the community or certain State services. We know it is difficult, sometimes, to find out whether State moneys are still being given to help some of our external companies. I know that one can find that out by asking questions and making a study of it.

I feel that it would be helpful, at any rate to Senators, if these matters could be put a little more clearly and brought a little more into evidence. One gets rather the feeling that sometimes there is something not quite nice about public money being given to assist in keeping down well, not food subsidies, but in sponsoring or helping certain activities. I think we should know all about these things, and that the information should be easily available without putting one to the bother, first of finding out, and then asking questions. Now that we have separated capital expenditure and current expenditure in the Book of Estimates, which has been of immense help to people in seeing how we stand, I think that these various devices of assisting one section of the community, or one type of activity should be shown quite clearly, so that there can be no confusion.

I wonder how far it is useful to have on this Bill a general discussion covering every phase of governmental expenditure. It seems to be the practice with Senators to do that on this Bill. That is quite understandable because of the fact that Senators have not the opportunity, which is given to Deputies, of dealing with the Estimates for the different Departments. All the criticism in regard to different phases of governmental expenditure has to be listened to by one Minister even though he has no particular function in the actual administration of many of those Departments. Since that is so, one wonders how far it is useful to have a discussion of this kind. There may be the possibility—I would say it is a vain hope—that other Ministers will go to the trouble of reading the debates in this House, of wading through the filling up stuff, to get the facts in regard to the different points which Senators try to put across. I think it would be too much to expect particular Ministers to do that.

Even though that may be the position it is only natural to expect that Senators would be anxious to discuss this Bill since it affords one of the few opportunities they get of discussing different phases of Government expenditure. Strangely enough, when the Minister for Finance is before the Seanad with this measure it is his fellow Ministers who come in for all the criticism, while he himself seems to get off very nicely. It is a pity, I think, that we cannot have more things to say to the Minister for Finance. When I have criticism to offer an any matter, I would much prefer to criticise someone who is present than someone who is not. I refer to that because some time ago we had people who entertained the hope that there was to be retrenchment in public expenditure. In fact, it was held out by the present Minister for Finance as a thing which be believed in. On a former occasion we had people who suggested in this House that the Minister was a wizard in finance, and that he would succeed in ensuring retrenchment in public expenditure. I do not want to pile it on to the Minister because I understand quite well that probably every member of this House is anxious to see public money spent. One member may want money spent on one particular thing, and another member will advocate something else which will entail public expenditure. Therefore, it is with a certain amount of sympathy that I criticise the Minister for not succeeding with his policy of retrenchment in public expenditure, due to the fact that he is being goaded on to increase expenditure, not only by members of this House but by members of the Dáil.

I think the Minister will not regard that as unfair criticism. We must admit that members of this House and of the other House have goaded on the Minister to increase public expenditure. The funny thing is that Senators who have applauded the Minister on a policy of retrenchment in regard to public taxation are to-day quite anxious, and are prepared to justify without any criticism at all, expenditure to an extent which is much greater than that ever before presented to the House, either by the present Minister or by his predecessor. That is the position, despite the fact that some of those people were quite anxious to use such a term as "squandermania." It is hard to coincide the two points of view. While making that criticism of the Minister, I do admit that I am sure it is not easy to ensure retrenchment.

It has been the practice on this Bill to refer to the activities of different Government Departments. It would be hard to raise anything at this stage without traversing ground already covered in the debate. Sometime ago, a Land Bill was brought to this House by the Minister for Lands Every time there is a charge of Ministers in the Department of Lands the new Minister, no matter who he may be or what Party he may belong to, is prepared to make statements which raise the hope again in the minds of certain people that there is going to be some real push put into the activities of the Land Commission. People get the feeling that the activities of that Department are going to be much speedier than they had been in the past, but to me that seems to be the end of it. During that particular debate, I had before me the report of the Land Commission. Since the present Minister for Lands has come into office, we have heard him compare figures in relation to the amount of land handled or rearranged or resold in County Leitrim with those of other counties in the congested districts. Having heard the Minister, I had hoped that something would be done, but despite the fact that the Land Commission have officials working in County Leitrim, all they ever seem to do, in a very congested district where the average poor law valuation is less than £10, is to rearrange small miserable patches of bog or land. We hear statements by the Minister for Lands about the amount of land acquired, particularly in Leinster, by the Land Commission. I often wonder, and many people in County Leitrim often wonder, what has happened to this land. I speak subject to correction, but as far as I am aware not one small farm of land has been allocated in the past three years to any applicant to relieve congestion in County Leitrim. Can it be that all the talk is nothing but paper talk, and that the figures are fictitious? Is the land acquired at all and, if it is acquired, who is getting it? It appears to me that County Leitrim has not so far got any measure of equity—nor has it in the past, for that matter.

Senator Baxter severely castigated Senator Hawkins. I always think and I cannot help thinking that Senator Baxter seems to think that he has a divine right to preach to or castigate other people. I may say that I think he does it quite sincerely: That is my own opinion and others may have a different opinion. However, he has taken it upon himself to castigate Senator Hawkins and he charged him with making political propaganda in connection with the question of imported butter. Senator Baxter even suggested that it was wrong for Senator Hawkins to criticise or make any reference to the fact that the present Minister for Agriculture exported Irish butter from this country—which, apparently, suited the taste of the Irish people—and imported butter at a dearer price. The taxpayer, I am sure, had to suffer a loss and the Minister for Finance cannot have been too happy about that arrangement either, because of subsidy commitments by his Department. Apparently, Senator Baxter feels that Senator Hawkins is taking an unfair advantage of the situation by referring to that matter in this House or anywhere else. If that be so, I wonder what we understand by the right of criticism in democracy. Apparently the case was made that the facts as stated by Senator Hawkins were not so and that it was nothing but propaganda to suggest that our people are more partial to home butter than to the imported article—leaving out altogether the question of price. In reply to that criticism by Senator Baxter, I suggest that if the Minister for Agriculture or Senator Baxter want to test that matter, all the Minister has to do is to put the Irish butter on the ration and leave the foreign butter to be sold, even at the same price, in excess of the ration. We should then see whether it would be sold or not. I realise that that would mean a further commitment and in any event I know that it will not happen because the Minister for Finance would say that it would mean further expenditure in relation to the butter subsidy. But if it were done, it would satisfy Senator Baxter as to whether what Senator Hawkins said in that connection was propaganda or not. Surely it cannot be asserted that it is unfair criticism of a Minister for a member of this House to suggest that it was a bungled arrangement on the part of that particular Minister to export the butter from this country and to import foreign butter at a higher price. If that is a matter that should not be raised here, I do not know what should be.

I do not think that Senator Hawkins could be accused of unfair criticism or of any vulgar histrionics in his speech. That charge might more easily be levied against certain Ministers—and not against the Minister who is here at present. Since vulgar exaggerated statements which have no foundation in fact can be made by Ministers, is it any wonder that members of this House, when they get a chance of replying, are bound to criticise these statements? One of the latest was a statement which I read in two newspapers in connection with the Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association. It was reported in the newspapers that the Minister for Agriculture would not receive those people at the end of a 40-foot pole and that they were a Fianna Fáil ramp. I happen to know the chairman of that organisation. He is from my part of the country and he is from the same county as Senator Baxter, who has a keen interest in milk production, just as I have myself. Mr. Fletcher of Killeshandra is the chairman of that organisation. He may be a most excellent man in many ways, but I do not think that activity on behalf of Fianna Fáil would be a privilege that he would lay claim to. I am sure he was not too happy when he read these statements which were reported in the newspapers to have been made by the Minister for Agriculture. That sort of thing is bound to poison discussion and it is bound to make people reply in no uncertain manner. I know the gentleman in question and I think that that statement was quite unfair. With regard to the suggestion that the Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association is an organised political ramp, it is difficult to understand what exactly the Minister meant when he used the word "ramp". I suppose it is better for all of us to take our own meaning.

The Senator has impressed me with the terrible insult it is to say it to anybody belonging to Fianna Fáil.

I do not say that, but I say that I do not think that Fianna Fáil could claim the gentleman in question as being a very ardent supporter of that Party. I am not here particularly to make a case for Fianna Fáil. I am interested in the activities of that organisation to a very mild extent and I cannot but think that the type of statement made by the Minister for Agriculture in that connection is quite wrong. Have the farmers, or a particular branch of farming, not a right to band themselves together in a vocational organisation and to make a case for their particular branch of agriculture, irrespective of their political views? Surely they are as much entitled to do so as are the members of the Medical Association, the members of trade unions in this country and the Bank Officials' Association. When any particular branch of agriculture band themselves together in that way, surely they deserve somewhat better treatment than to be painted as people who are trying to pull off a political stunt? I am sure the Minister will agree quite readily that they are entitled to a little more consideration than that.

Since so much has been said about eggs I wonder if it is safe for me to mention them at all. When the price of eggs was relatively fairly good and the price of feeding stuffs not as high as to-day, Senator Baxter applauded the Minister and now that things have gone in the other direction it was amusing to hear him trying to place the blame on the Minister's predecessor. In the long run the people of the country will be the best judges of whether the responsibility rests with the present or the previous Minister.

Local authorities are now asked to produce a three-year supply of turf for their own requirements, and as a member of one I would tell the Minister that the local authorities irrespective of their political formation are not too happy about it. Any surplus turf produced by county councils during the emergency was sold to Fuel Importers, and there was some indemnification with regard to price. Now local authorities are specifically directed, to use the terms of the Department, not to farm out the work. I believe it would be better for them to boost private production by maintaining roads leading into bogs and by drainage. They could assure the producers that they would get a good price and that the turf would not be left on their hands. This would be better than the invidious position they are in at present, as the county councils have no indemnity now from the Government. This method would be more economic for the county councils, and the producers would be working for themselves. If the turf was of good quality the officers of the county council could take it, but if it were improperly harvested they could leave it with the producer until it was harvested.

People in the West think that this scheme is designed to make self-employed people employees of the county council, and also to make them organisable workers. Bord na Móna is prepared to pay a wage higher than is normally paid by county councils, because they are better organised and more concentrated. Bord na Móna operates mainly in County Kildare, and if Kildare County Council proposed to produce turf on their own account, paying a lower wage, the Minister may guess how long the workers would work for them. The Minister is a man of some experience, more experience in many things than I have, and he can also guess if the workers in Kildare struck for higher wages and their demands were met, how long it would be until a similar demand was made to Leitrim, Sligo and Longford County Councils. This seems to be an attempt to make present proprietors workers for local authorities in such a way that they will become organisable from a labour point of view, and that, in my opinion, is not a good thing. Private production would be far better. You would get a better article, and a better output, as the people would be working for themselves.

The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, March 21st.

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