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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Dec 1951

Vol. 40 No. 6

Undeveloped Areas Bill, 1951—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The case for this Bill rests, I think, upon two main contentions. The first is that it is in the general interests of the country as a whole that manufacturing industry should be attracted into the congested areas and into the part of the country which is covered by that term and to the adjacent districts which are undeveloped in an industrial sense; and, secondly, that, in so far as industry controlled by private enterprises is concerned, it cannot be secured unless inducements of an exceptional character are provided. If either of these contentions can be disproved the case for the Bill falls but, in fact, in the course of the debate on the Bill in the Dáil, it was demonstrated that both of them were generally supported by all Parties.

The tendency, which has been noticeable during the past 20 years, for industry to concentrate in the eastern counties and particularly in the main cities and towns on the eastern coast, was natural. It is in the eastern areas and particularly in the towns in the eastern counties that the main markets of the counties are to be found. It is these towns which are the principal centres of financial and commercial activity. There also are to be found the main ports of the country—those which are best equipped and which are most conveniently located in relation to the main sources of supply of raw materials. In so far as there exists at all anything in this country that could be described as an industrial tradition it also is located in the eastern part of the country. In fact, I think it is true to say that all the factors making for the economic operation of industrial undertakings and their commercial success predominated in the eastern counties.

The contention which I have made that it is in the general interests of the country, as a whole, that that tendency to develop industry in the East should be arrested and, if possible, reversed was, as I have said, generally supported during the discussions on this Bill in the Dáil. That concentration in the East has created and will, in increasing degree, continue to create social and economic problems both in the East and in the West.

In the congested areas—these counties along our western seaboard and in the adjacent areas—there has been, for a number of years, a steady decline in population, due almost entirely—if not entirely—to the continuing flow of emigration. There has been a movement of population out of these counties for the purpose of emigration. If these conditions are to be changed, if the decline in population of these counties is to be checked and the flow of population out of them reduced, improvement in the social and economic conditions there is necessary. More than that, the introduction of a wider variety of occupations is necessary so that those who feel that their personal talents can most usefully be-exploited in activities not now carried on there will have the opportunity of developing them within reach of their own homes. That means the introduction there of industrial activity. The general desire which exists—a desire which we all have—to check the flow of emigration from these areas can be helped by the introduction—if we can succeed in doing it—of manufacturing industry.

The purpose of this Bill is to help the development of manufacturing industry in congested areas by private enterprise. I think it is necessary to emphasise, in view of certain misunderstandings that arose in the Dáil, that that is the sole purpose of the Bill. It is limited in that way. It is not put forward nor could it be fairly regarded as a comprehensive plan for economic development in the congested areas. It certainly does not represent any idea that all the problems there can be solved by encouraging the development of privately owned manufacturing industry. There are other developments possible and for which arrangements are being made—development of turf bogs for power purposes, the improvement of agricultural facilities and productive methods, afforestation, the improvement of harbour and port facilities, the improvement of roads and mineral exploitation, the development of fisheries and numerous other matters that were mentioned in the course of the Dáil debate. In so far as these things are possible and desirable, the encouragement of them has been entrusted to various State Departments and statutory organisations and, if necessary, the powers of these Departments or organisations will be increased. The sole purpose of this Bill is to supplement what may be done by national enterprise of that kind by encouraging, if possible, privately owned industry to locate itself in the congested areas rather than in other parts of the country.

I do not think it is necessary to argue at any length that inducements are necessary to arouse any substantial interest among those who are likely to undertake industrial development in the possibility of locating it in the areas west of the Shannon and on the western seaboard rather than in the eastern areas to which economic considerations naturally attract them. In fact, the development of industry in the congested areas has been less rapid than in the East because of the competitive disadvantages of a western location. These disadvantages are, I think, well known to everybody. It is not merely that a factory located in these areas producing goods intended for sale in the main markets of the East has to incur costs, particularly transport costs, which its competitors located in the East would avoid but also because there are other disadvantages as well. The absence of any corps of workers with industrial experience of any kind, the lower efficiency of the public services, the higher cost of power, problems associated with the housing and accommodation of workers, and many other factors, tend to discourage private firms from voluntarily locating their enterprise in the West when it is open to them to do it in the East. The existence of these competitive disadvantages was always recognised.

This idea of encouraging industrial development in the West of Ireland is not new. Many Senators will recollect earlier debates upon the desirability of pursuing that policy and on the measures necessary to make it effective. I told the Dáil, and I do not mind repeating it here, that in the initial stages of the industrial development policy we miscalculated the difficulties of securing the decentralisation of industry towards the West and thought that the powers which the Government then possessed would be adequate to secure it. These powers were not very definite. In so far as industry required in its initial stages at least some form of protection by means of customs duties or quantitative restriction of imports or Government help in some other form, we thought we could make the giving of that help conditional upon the promoters of any new enterprise selecting some midland or western county in need of the benefit of an industry within its borders. It is, I think, fair to say that to some extent results were achieved in that way.

While the rate of industrial development west of the Shannon has been a lot slower than it has been east of the Shannon, nevertheless there was some and it was secured mainly by these methods of exhortation accompanied by a greater willingness to give the help required if Government policy was complied with in that respect. However, many of those who began a new industry at the Government's request in some western location subsequently found themselves up against the competition of another firm in the same business in an eastern location. Once the Government had restricted imports or had given some other encouragement to the development of an industry here, it could not prevent, and did not desire to prevent, other firms from going into the same field. Naturally, the pioneers, who had conformed to the Government's policy, considered that they had a legitimate grievance, and they had a legitimate grievance, when others who were less compliant in that respect secured a competitive advantage over them by starting elsewhere. It was the realisation of the ineffectiveness of the powers we had when the industrial drive was launched that led to the reconsideration of the question and the inclusion in the Control of Manufactures Act, 1936, of the reserve commodity provisions, which some Senators may remember.

I have mentioned that anybody who complied with Government policy and who started a factory for the operation of a new industry in a western area complained if, subsequently, another firm went into the same line in an eastern location and secured the competitive advantages of that location. We thought we could check that by introducing the reserve commodity arrangement. That was an arrangement by which, in consideration of some firm's undertaking to establish a new type of industry in a western location, a reserve commodity Order would be made which would prevent anybody else from entering the same business except in the same area. That proved almost completely ineffective. I think that only one reserve Order was made and that—as some Senators will remember—was the subject of very considerable controversy. In the first place, the reserve Order could operate only in respect of some industry that did not exist previously in the country and, secondly, it conferred a monopoly on the first comer into the industry which, if not abused, at least gave the critics of the whole policy of industrial development the opportunity of suggesting that it would be abused.

What we are trying now is a new method of securing the results which we have always desired to get. The form of help which it is proposed to give under this Bill is, as Senators will note, not dissimilar to that provided in corresponding legislation in Great Britain for the benefit of the depressed areas of that country, and legislation in the Six-County area. The British problem was, of course, different fundamentally from ours. Their problem arose out of the excessive specialisation in industry in particular localities. When depression occurred, the effects upon these localities were widespread and profound. The desire of the British Government was to introduce into these areas a greater variety of industry so that the effect of trade fluctuations would be less pronounced. They enacted legislation not dissimilar to this in order to help towards that end. In the Six-County area the problem is different still. They may or may not have undeveloped areas such as we have but they have not power to afford protection to local industries in the home market. Consequently, any help they give towards industrial development must be along these lines.

In considering what inducements would be effective in getting private enterprise to undertake industrial development west of the Shannon we came early to the conclusion that it must have certain definite features. The help which any particular industrial firm would get for a particular project must be known to it in advance. We are talking now of the development of industry by private enterprise. That means that some individual or group of individuals must be prepared to take the financial risk in securing the establishment of a factory. It must have available to it the technical knowledge and managerial capacity to make a success of it. Any such group planning a new industrial project in the congested areas would desire to know in advance clearly and definitely the amount of help it could expect, before it incurred any expenditure from its own resources.

There are other reasons why it is desirable that the amount of help to be given should be given initially and that it should be clearly understood that there will be no further help. If we are to get any result at all in industrial expansion in the West by private enterprise, it must be made clear to the private groups who undertake it that by accepting help under this Bill they are not submitting themselves to the danger of bureaucratic control or continuous supervision or regulation by Government Departments. The idea is that they should be given a measure of help, the amount of which would be assessed in relation to the competitive disadvantages of the location chosen, having regard to the nature of the industry, and that they would get that without any condition attached whatsoever. There would be no suggestion of a continuing obligation to the board to be established under this Bill, no suggestion of a mortgage on its assets to secure the amount given, or any other impediment whatever. The group concerned would be quite free if, having made a start, they decided that their plans were unsound and the enterprise was not likely to succeed, to close up again and get out of business just as any private firm in the East could do. That, it is appreciated, involves certain risks— risks which will be minimised by the efforts of the board to assess the genuineness of the intentions and the soundness of the plans of those who come to it for help.

The amount of help will be related, as I have said, to the competitive disadvantages, if any, which are associated with the project because of the location chosen. There will be, I am sure, many applications from firms or individuals who would be held to be under no competitive disadvantages whatsoever. There are many small industries which, for one reason or another, operate successfully in rural areas and in western counties and which cannot be said to be at any disadvantage, in so far as they are mainly concerned with supplying local markets. All over the country there are small bakeries, mineral water factories, small furniture factories, vehicle repairers and other enterprises of that kind which, in my view, would not qualify at all for help under this Bill.

It is only where the board decides that the economic considerations would have justified the location of the particular project in Dublin or Cork or in some eastern county, and that its transfer west of the Shannon or to any of the west coast counties involves a competitive disadvantage which should be offset, that help will be given; and the amount of the help will be decided on the basis of the board's calculation of what the economic disadvantage is. That decision, that the help to be given should be calculated initially and given finally, is also important from another point of view.

I have been at pains in the course of the discussion in Dáil Committee on this Bill, to make it clear that there is no intention to give continuing help to any industrial project which may be started in consequence of it. If an enterprise is launched with help under this Bill and fails, then it will go out of business and will have no right to come back to this board for a further measure of help. It may come to the Department of Industry and Commerce and get from the Department whatever advice or help it can give, advice or help which would be given equally to the industries located in the eastern areas. It is desirable to make it clear that, so far as this Bill is concerned and the board established under it, once the decision has been taken as to the amount of help given, that will finish all contact between the board and the enterprise. Any subsequent difficulties into which the concern may get will have to be resolved by itself or resolved otherwise than by a further appeal to this board. The reason why I think it important to emphasise that aspect of the scheme in this Bill is that I believe that any prospect of a continuing subsidy or renewed help to meet avoidable difficulties tends to promote inefficiency and I think it is desirable to make it abundantly clear that it will not be forthcoming.

Under the Bill, when the board has decided that help is needed and has made some assessment of the amount of help, it can give that help in one of a number of forms, or in all the forms specified in the Bill. In certain cases it can build factory premises and lease them to a firm proposing to carry on an industrial activity in them. The British Government, in its efforts to solve the problems of its depressed areas, developed what were known as industrial estates. They opened up various areas, put in the necessary services— gas, electricity, water and sewerage— they built factory premises and then sought people to carry on in those premises any industrial activities of the kind they desired to encourage. I do not think it will be practicable for us to proceed precisely on those lines— at any rate not for a considerable period. It is to be assumed that An Foras Tionscal will not undertake the construction of premises for leasing for industrial purposes until they have in sight an occupant for the premises and an occupant whom they know has the capacity and the intention of carrying on a desirable form of industry there.

The reason why it is considered desirable to afford help of that kind is that one of the factors that would discourage a private firm, relying entirely on its own resources, from establishing a factory in the West rather than in the East, is that in the event of failure the premises would have a low sale value. If a firm started a factory in Dublin and it failed in its object, the firm could hope to dispose of those premises in Dublin to some undertaking without loss; but if it located a similar factory in some town in the West of Ireland it would have difficulty in getting a purchaser for the premises. Any firm likely to be deterred from going to the West through that consideration could have that fear completely eliminated by the help given by the board under that provision.

Alternatively, the board could give a grant towards the construction of the firm's premises, which would then be in the ownership of the firm carrying on the business, and a grant which no doubt the board would relate to the estimated loss on sale if the premises had to be sold again. Similarly, it could give grants up to 50 per cent. of the value of the machinery installed. In that connection, I want to refer to an undertaking which I gave in the Dáil when a query was raised as to the operation of that provision.

It was suggested that there was a danger of some group getting help in this form from the board, buying machinery with the aid of a 50 per cent. grant, then selling the machinery again at a profit to itself and not carrying on the undertaking at all. During the course of the discussion in the Dáil Committee I suggested that the board could make the grant subject to terms, and that it could attach a condition which would involve a repayment of the grant in the event of the undertaking not being carried on. It was only on reconsideration that I realised that in doing so I had departed from my own conception of the Bill, in fact doing the very thing I suggested should not be done, because any repayment condition would have to be secured by a mortgage on the plant or on the premises or some other continuing obligation on the firm. Any such mortgage would be a commercial handicap because it would restrict the ability of the firm to raise working capital by bank advances or in any other way, and the operation of any such condition would imply some continuing supervision by the board to ensure that the conditions were being observed. In fact, while recognising that there is some risk of a dishonest practice of the kind mentioned, I do not think there is any safeguard against that risk except the judgment of the members of An Foras Tionscal on the bona fides, the intentions and the capacity of the people coming to them. In any event, presumably they will have other means of assessing the bona fides of the people concerned rather than reliance on their declarations or intentions.

There is provision also for giving a grant to meet the cost of training workers. One problem which anybody launching an industrial undertaking in the West would have to solve would be the collection of a body of workers trained in the process involved in the industry. Many of the concerns which started in the West had to incur expenditure on sending workers to Great Britain or the Continent for a period of weeks in order to acquire the knowledge that they could transmit to other workers at home, although sometimes that training was possible within the country. The proposal in the Bill is similar to that contained in the Northern Ireland legislation and provides for the giving of training grants not exceeding the recognised trade union rate for learners in the trade, plus any travelling or subsistence expenses which might be incurred. That help would, I think, be important. The expenditure which a new concern would have to undertake in the training of workers would have to be regarded as unproductive if there was open to that firm the alternative of putting the factory somewhere else and recruiting workers already trained in other factories.

Another problem which may confront anybody undertaking industry in the West is the absence of suitable houses for managerial staff or hostel or similar accommodation for workers. If that problem should arise in any particular instance, it will be open to the board to give a grant for the construction of houses, hostels or canteens. It may also incur expenditure on the construction of railway sidings or loading facilities, the construction or improvement of roads, or the provision of harbour facilities wherever these are considered necessary for the development of a particular industrial project.

I want to emphasise the significance of that qualification, because it became apparent to me that that section of the Bill was being misread in some parts of the country and that the Board is likely to receive applications for grants for various harbour works or construction projects which are desired in particular parts of the country which have no particular relation to any specific industrial project and are just desirable public works for which Government financial help is required. Harbour works at Youghal, a viaduct to Valentia Island, and things of that kind were mentioned. This board would have no power to spend any money on any road or bridge or harbour work except the expenditure was deemed to be necessary to secure the development of a particular industrial project in the locality.

The Bill also provides power to local authorities to grant a remission of rates to new industries established in those areas and there is a provision which requires the Electricity Service Board, on order from the Minister, to provide power for industrial purposes in those areas at the lowest rate at which power is provided for similar enterprises anywhere else.

When framing the Bill, the Government endeavoured to relate the form of help which can be given under it to the particular disadvantages which private enterprise engaged in industry in the West was likely to experience. It is obvious, however, that the outstanding disadvantage a western factory has to overcome is the higher transport costs of distributing its products to counties in the East or bringing raw materials from eastern ports. There was no device that we could think of to enable that particular disadvantage to be offset by help given in the form of a single payment made before the undertaking was launched. There were many reasons why anything in the nature of a transport subsidy was regarded as undesirable. The Bill emerged in its present form without any particular provision directly related to the disadvantage of higher transport costs and we are proceeding on the assumption that the other advantages which can be given under the Bill by An Foras Tionscal to an industrial enterprise in the West will be sufficient to attract industries into those areas even though they know that the disadvantage will continue.

I should, perhaps, make it clear also at this stage, because some misunderstanding emerged during the Dáil debate, that this Bill does not purport to indicate all the help which can be given from Government sources to industrial enterprises west of the Shannon. It represents the help which can be given over and above the help which would be given industrial enterprise anywhere. Protection of the home market, restriction of imports, aid under the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act or any other aid which might be given to the advantage of industrial enterprises anywhere will still be available for enterprises established west of the Shannon. But, over and above all that aid, there will be the possibility of the further aid given by An Foras Tionscal under this Bill and, of course, any industry started there encountering any particular difficulty can, as any existing industry would do, come to the appropriate Government Department, frame its problems and seek help for their amelioration.

It is perhaps desirable at this stage that I should make some reference to the organisation established under the Bill, Foras Tionscal. Senators will notice that it consists of three members. I have received suggestions that certain citizens who have a wide experience in industrial management or special knowledge of conditions in the congested areas should be included on the board. As I explained in the Dáil, however, the sole function of Foras Tionscal will be the administration of the funds entrusted to it. It will have no duty to initiate industrial projects for the West. In so far as it may be necessary to initiate industrial proposals of interest to the West or to provide information as to industrial possibilities, that will continue to be the function of the Department of Industry and Commerce.

People who are contemplating starting new industries or have got an idea for a new industry will come as at present to the Department of Industry and Commerce and discuss their plans there. When these plans have been proven to be feasible and sound, then their attention will be drawn to the fact that if instead of locating their new factory in Dublin, Cork, or the eastern counties, they locate it in the congested areas, they will get from the board certain forms of financial help.

The sole function of the board will be to decide in relation to the proposals submitted to it the amount of financial help, if help is necessary, required to offset any competitive disadvantage associated with the selection of a western location. As it will, therefore, be mainly concerned with the administration of funds it should I think consist of people who have got practical experience of the administration of public funds.

That does not mean that the board will consist entirely of civil servants but I think it is likely to be confined to those who have got experience in civil service or statutory organisations of a somewhat similar character. Neither do I think it will be necessary —I do not expect it will be—that the members of the board will be engaged whole time in the discharge of this work. The board will, of course, be completely independent of the Government. Its decisions will be final. It will not make recommendations which the Minister can either accept or reject. Once it comes to a decision, that decision will be implemented without reference to any Government Department.

It is a desirable feature of the Bill that it is possible for the board to enter into discussions with the promoters of industrial projects in the knowledge that it can reach decisions which are not subject to subsequent review by others who have not had the same opportunity as the board will have of intimate examination of the proposals. Many Deputies during the course of the debate in the Dáil commented on the fact that I did not express myself as being very optimistic as to the possible effects of this Bill upon the situation in the congested areas. Frankly, I have no means of estimating what the effect of the passage of the Bill and the establishment of Foras Tionscal may be upon the future of industry west of the Shannon. I know that various people who have been discussing industrial plans or ideas in the Department have shown considerable interest in the Bill and have expressed also their intention of entering into discussions with Foras Tionscal, when established, to ascertain the inducements that will be given to them to locate their enterprises, if they proceed with them, in these congested areas rather than elsewhere.

I think it is likely that some useful results will be secured but I think it would be foolish to suggest that as a result of the enactment of this measure there will spring up a crop of factories in every western town which will completely revolutionise the whole social and economic aspect of that area. In that connection I should mention that the Bill provides for Grants-in-Aid to Foras Tionscal to the extent of £2,000,000. In so far as that represents any attempt to assess the extent to which the facilities provided by the Bill will be utilised, it can be nothing more than a guess. It certainly is not intended to be any indication of a desire to limit the operation of the Bill in any way. Whether the amount mentioned in the Bill was £2,000,000, £10,000,000 or £20,000,000 that would not alter in the least the number of proposals that will be forthcoming or the amounts which Foras Tionscal might decide to make available in any individual case. It does mean that if the amount granted for industrial development in the West by Foras Tionscal exceeds £2,000,000 amending legislation will be required and, as a general rule, I think that is a desirable safeguard.

Different members of the Dáil or Seanad may have different ideas as to the extent to which public funds should be allocated for the making of grants of this kind. I think that if the amount granted seems likely to run beyond the figure in the Bill the Oireachtas should have an opportunity of having another look at it; but I think that most of us would feel so pleased in getting results on that scale in the industrial development of the congested areas we would have little hesitation in recommending the enactment of further legislation to raise the limit.

The procedure will be that in each year the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce will include a sub-head providing a certain amount out of this total for expenditure in that year. I should perhaps say that the Estimate next year and the following year will be just as much a guess as the present limit in the Bill. Nobody can calculate in advance how much will be required. If the amount provided proves to be inadequate a Supplementary Estimate will be taken.

I do not think it is likely that every town in the West will benefit equally under the Bill. It is certainly not intended to exercise any discrimination within the limits of the congested areas in favour of any particular town or county. If two sound industrial propositions come from one town, both will be supported even though a neighbouring town has not been able to produce any proposition at all. The operation of Foras Tionscal will be directed to getting industrial development within that area leaving it to the private firms concerned to select the location that appears most advantageous to them bearing in mind that the amount of help they will get under the Bill will be related to the disadvantages of the location. It might be true, therefore, to say that the further west they go the greater the measure of help on which they can count.

In that connection the Dáil got itself into quite an involved discussion upon what I think must have been a misunderstanding of certain remarks regarding the effect of the Bill upon the Gaeltacht and Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas. So far as the Bill is concerned the word Gaeltacht does not appear in it at all. It is a Bill designed to deal with the problems arising from the undeveloped character of a wide stretch of the country which was defined previously as the congested areas. We recognise, however, that within these congested areas there are Gaeltacht areas and that particularly in relation to the more restricted Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas national policy has a double aim. It has not merely the object of improving economic and social conditions there but also the desire to do so without damaging the prospects of the survival of the language as the spoken language of the people in those areas.

I expressed the view—I still think it is correct—that it is unlikely that the measure of help which can be given under this Bill will be effective in inducing private enterprise to establish competitive manufacturing industries in the isolated districts around the western seaboard. I think that if there is a possibility of developing special forms of industry there, that will have to be explored and carried out in the main at Government risk and by State organisations. Certain proposals in that respect may be submitted to the Oireachtas during the course of the next year.

When Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge came to me and expressed apprehension lest this effort to induce private enterprise into the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas would not be accompanied by safeguards for the language I expressed the view that the inducements given under this Bill would be effective in getting industrial development in the towns of the congested areas and only in very exceptional circumstances would they be sufficient in getting industrial development in the isolated areas. But there certainly is no ground for any suggestion that these areas, the Fíor-Ghaeltacht or otherwise, are excluded from the Bill, and if anybody produces a sound proposition for industrial development based either upon some natural resources or other local advantage for any of these areas then it will be open to An Foras Tionscal to give them whatever measure of help they require and is possible under the Bill.

Would the Minister say if the board will have any power to assist existing industries? I think it has.

It has that power now because of an amendment which was inserted in the Bill in Committee in the Dáil. I was pressed to accept that amendment. I had considerable hesitation about doing so. My hesitation was based upon the danger that experience would show it to be difficult groups or individuals associated with genuine extension of an existing industry and the propping up of an industry that was being badly managed or that was losing money. The experience we have of the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act shows that a very high proportion of the applications made under that Act come from existing concerns which have got themselves into financial difficulties, financial difficulties which they cannot meet by the ordinary methods and which induces them to consider the rather unattractive method of finance which the Trade Loans (Guarantee) Act provides. I felt that it was undesirable that An Foras Tionscal should have on it the onus of deciding whether proposals coming from an existing industry were really a device to prop up a tottering concern or represented a genuine development. On the other hand, I recognised the force of the argument made in the Dáil that if the desire was to get new industrial activity in these areas and more employment into them, and if there was quite a bona fide proposition for the extension of an existing concern, it was difficult to refuse help to it under the Bill when we would give it if that same development was being undertaken by a new firm in the same town. That is why I accepted the proposal made in the Dáil and amended the Bill. I said then that, in so far as I could ensure it, I would direct Foras Tionscal not to give help in the case of an existing concern except where there was a clear intention to undertake a new line of business, or unless there was such a very significant extension of an existing line of business that the proposal could, in truth, be said to be one for the establishment of a new enterprise.

The Bill as drafted gives An Foras Tionscal power to provide help for industrial enterprises in the congested areas as defined in the Bill and it gives the Minister power to declare other areas to be undeveloped and to bring them within the scope of the Bill. We had some difficulty in deciding how to frame that section. It was desired to emphasise that the purpose of the Bill was to attract industry west of the Shannon. There was an obvious advantage in taking the existing definition of the congested areas, the definition contained in the 1909 Land Act, a definition made for a somewhat analogous purpose, and which is so well known and so long established that there can be no suggestion that there was any picking or choosing of counties or townlands for the purpose of the definition.

On the other hand, it is recognised that there are areas adjacent to these congested areas where the economic conditions are almost precisely the same. I mentioned in the Dáil West Cavan, North Longford and what, I think, Limerick men call west of West Limerick. In these areas, or similar undeveloped areas, no logical reason could be advanced for refusing help for the establishment of industrial enterprises while agreeing that help would be available for an industry a few miles further west. We could have framed the Bill in such a way as to make it apply only to areas which by ministerial Order were declared to be undeveloped, but we felt that would be open to criticism and in any event would obscure the purpose of the Bill. Therefore, we adopted this device of providing that it must apply, without any question of ministerial discretion at all, to the congested areas as defined in the 1909 Land Act, and that it may be applied at ministerial discretion to other areas which are undeveloped in the same sense. I think that is the best course, although I recognise that those who would like to argue that there is a strong case for the inclusion of certain other areas in the Bill, a case with which I myself in many instances would be in complete agreement, but may be at some disadvantage in accepting it as it now stands.

I also said in the Dáil, and I want to repeat it here, that the Bill will not be effective in getting any industrial development in the West unless private enterprise responds to the inducements which are given under it. There is evidence that it may have that result. Nobody can be dogmatic about that until the board is established and until industrial projects get down to detailed discussions with the board. I know that, in many of these towns in the congested areas, local development associations are being formed. That is all to the good, although I think it is more likely that results will be achieved by the method of some persons or groups coming to the Department of Industry and Commerce and discussing the new ideas they have for industry, and being told there that if they go into these congested areas they can get this special form of help. Some may be induced in that way to go to those areas, but it is also desirable that there should be local development associations through which such people can get information about local financial participation or the other facilities available.

While not attempting to make any forecast of the extent to which the Bill will be effective in improving conditions in the West, I am confident some good will come of it. I think it is an effort worth making in any case, and on that basis I recommend the Bill to the Seanad.

The Minister has given us a detailed and, I think, a very fair account of this Bill and of the rather complicated difficulties with which the board, to be set up under it, will have to contend. It is based, to some extent, upon a British Bill, but, as the Minister has said, the difficulties of the British distressed areas are of quite a different character from the difficulties that are experienced here in the counties west of the Shannon with regard to industrial development and, indeed, with regard to a great many other things as well. Everybody is agreed that it will be a good thing to develop the West and a good thing to provide, in what is known as the congested areas, a variety of occupation, agricultural and industrial, a variety of life for those who live in those areas and a variety of cultural activities. The Bill is extremely limited in its scope. One of the points that has been made about the Bill is that it has a political as well as an economic objective.

The Minister is no simpleton. He knows as well as I and as well as most of us, in connection with this case, that what you will gain on the political swings you will lose on the political roundabouts. This Bill has a political advantage but it will create certain problems which will be solved to the political disadvantage of some people. So I think we could, perhaps, regard the Bill in the light of what it is.

Its scope is very limited; that I have already said. It is not the setting up of a congested districts board which had the function of giving grants. It is entirely, as the Minister has shown, designed for the purpose of making initial grants to private industrialists. I do not know that there is any likelihood of its having very great results. However, I do agree with the Minister that it is something which is worth trying. It is an experiment out of which a great deal of knowledge and experience will be gained.

The word inducement was used by the Minister. If the intention is to get people to start private enterprises in certain areas by giving them something which will merely make up for the disadvantages of the area, then that is not an inducement. You will have to give them something more than that in order to give them an inducement. If you are merely equalising the position in a western town with the position in Dublin, people may not be induced to leave Dublin. There are two propositions to be considered. The board will have to do a little more than making provision for compensating for the disadvantages, and I am looking on the Bill entirely from the Minister's point of view, because if the person is going to get inducements, he must be given something much more valuable that what he expects his losses to be. I do agree that if there is help to be given, it should be given in the initial stages by way of the training of workers, by providing facilities and should not be accompanied by any considerations which would enable somebody to exercise continuing control of the industry.

The point about the Bill which interests me particularly is this: What effect will it have upon the Irish-speaking districts which are almost all within the areas which the Bill covers? to draw the line between what was a I admire the Minister for his statement with regard to that matter, and I think, in the nature of things, that this Bill cannot deal with the Gaeltacht areas and that, in the main, the result of private enterprise, particularly on a large scale, starting in any of those areas would be, apart from its economic effect altogether, detrimental to the continued use of the Irish language. The provision that the board may actually help existing industries might be of advantage in certain cases.

There is another point, however. The proposed board, when we have had experience of it, may serve as a model for a board to be set up to give some assistance to the Gaeltacht. That help could not be given by way of assistance to private enterprise. It is quite obvious that, if there are difficulties, and the Minister has given us a great many of them, in inducing people to start industries in large or largish towns convenient to the Gaeltacht, the difficulties are still greater in getting them to start in remote areas which present very, very great disadvantages from the manufacturing and from the commercial point of view. The benefits which might accrue from this Bill would be that it would serve as a model for a board which might be given money to use for the setting up of suitable economic machinery— and I use the word suitable advisedly —to deal with Gaeltacht areas. While the £2,000,000 allocated under this Bill has a case, I think it would be admitted that a very much smaller sum of money could be used to great advantage in the Gaeltacht areas by a properly constituted board. On the precise terms of the Bill, that is all I want to say on this particular stage. The Minister, perhaps the House should know, is agreeable to have the Committee Stage postponed until after Christmas—that is, on or near the date on which we come back after the Christmas recess. Many of the remarks that would arise can be left over until the Committee Stage. I would like to say, on the Second Stage, that the Bill is an attempt to provide a variety of life in certain areas to stop emigration. But the causes of emigration are by no means wholly economic.

This measure or any other measure of an economic nature will not be sufficient to accomplish the stopping of emigration. There was an Irish poet in the 17th century who spoke about Ireland becoming "Saxa nua darbh ainm Éire"—a new England called Ireland—and the more we become the England called Ireland and, still worse perhaps, the America called Ireland, the less reason there will be, from many points of view, to stay here. The less our people are different from other people and the more they lose their distinctiveness both of language and of various kinds of habits, the less irksome exile becomes and the less they feel the pangs of parting.

I have an idea, from having met a great many people who have emigrated, that this is an element in the situation which has to be reckoned with as well as the economic one. After all, we have the same language, the same songs, the same music, the same newspapers, the same games, the same pictures and, to a certain extent, the same general outlook as our neighbours on both sides of us, the English on the one side and the Americans on the other.

There is still, of course, apart altogether from religion, which is a different matter, some remnant of a spiritual heritage in this country which makes exile uncomfortable. It seems to me, at any rate, that that residuum or remnant is fast becoming smaller, so that as a pendant or aid to this kind of Bill or any other measure designed to stop emigration in the West, we must not cease in our efforts to build up everything that will form our national character. We must cherish our own national features, and I do not speak of cherishing a kind of jingoistic nationalism but of the following of Irish spiritual traditions. Our political progress has gone a very great distance but our progress in other directions, in being Irish, has not been, by any means, as great.

Adverting again to the Gaeltacht, it must be remembered that the distinctive badge of Irishmen for a couple of thousand years was that they spoke the Irish language. The hundreds and thousands of Irish people who went to Rome last year have borne out that very point, that they could not persuade the people that they were not English or American if they could not talk to them in Irish. The preservation of our individuality would give the people a sense of real nationality and would make them feel uncomfortable if they were anywhere else. This factor is of great importance in determining whether people will or will not emigrate. I want to make that point now. As I said, a great many other points will arise on the Committee Stage and an opportunity of discussing them will be provided after Christmas. In the meantime, I think it is fair to the Minister to say that he has in no way exaggerated the importance of this Bill, that he has put the difficulties clearly and that he does not predict quick results. In that I entirely agree.

Is ar éigin is gá dhomsa a rá go gcuirim fáilte is fiche roimh an mBille seo, mar tuigtear dom gur tréaniarracht é chun teacht i gcabhair ar mhuintir na gceantar gcúng, daoine atá ar an gcaol-chuid le fada an lá, agus a sinsear rompu. Ní hé amháin go dteastaíonn uainn tionscail a chur ar bun ina measc, chun feabhas a chur ar chúrsaí an tsaoil acu, ach tá de dhualgas orainn slí bheatha a chur ar fáil dóibh a chuirfeadh ar a gcumas fanacht ag baile, ionas go gcoimeádfar an Ghaeilge beo sna háiteanna ina bhfuil sí á labhairt go fóill, mar is eol dúinn go léir go bhfuil cúrsaí slí mhaireachtana agus cúrsaí athbheochaint na teangan fite fuaite lena chéile.

Dar ndóigh, ní mar a chéile na ceantair chúnga agus an Ghaeltacht agus tugtar aird air sin sa Bhille seo. Tá sé i gceist an fearr tosnú le tionscail a chur ar bun sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht ar dtúis agus ansin leathnú amach go dtí an Bhreac-Ghaeltacht agus tionscail a bhunú sna bailte móra taobh amuigh den bhFíor-Ghaeltacht, áiteanna ar nós an Daingin, Cathair Saidhbhín, Cathair na Gaillimhe, agus ansin, ina dhiaidh sin, leathnú uathu sin amach go dtí bailte móra sa Ghalltacht atá suite i gceantar chúnga ach nach bhfuil i bhfad ón Gaeltacht, nó an fearr ligint don lucht tionscail leanúint dá lorg féin agus do réir a n-éirim ghnótha féin. Má ligtear, is é is dóichí gur sna bailte móra taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht a bheas suíomh na dtionscal, de bhrí gur sna bailte sin atá an líon daoine agus gur iontu is fusa na tionscail a choimeád ar siúl. Chomh maith leis sin is fusa agus is saoire a d'fhéadfaí na hearraí a bheadh á gcur ar fáil ag na tionscail sin a sheoladh chun bóthair. Léas tuairim Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge ina thaobh sin agus is é is dóigh leo sin gur fearr tosnú leis an dtionsclaíocht sna bailte móra atá comhgarach don Ghaeltacht toisc gur mó an fonn a bheadh ar na tionsclóirí cur fúthu iontu ná i gceantair aistréanacha iargúlta a mbeadh stró orthu na hearraí a déanfaí iontu a chur chun bóthair. Tá eagla ar Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge leis gur dream iad na tionsclóirí a raghadh i mbun an ghnótha ná beadh aon Ghaeilge acu agus ná beadh aon Ghaeilge ag na teicneoirí a bheadh timpeall orthu, agus gurbh é thitfeadh amach ná go leathnófaí labhairt an Bhéarla sa Ghaeltacht agus gur mó de dhíobháil ná de mhaitheas a thiocfadh as an iarracht sa deireadh thiar thall. Tá smut den cheart sa mhéid sin ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil iomlán an chirt. Tá roinnt tionscal faoi lántseol cheana féin i nGaeltacht Thír Chonaill, i gCeantar Iorrais i Muigheo agus i gceantair áirithe i gConamara, is dóigh liom, agus ní heol dom gur tháinig aon laige i labhairt na Gaeilge dá mbarr. Ach tionscail bheaga is ea iad, ar a shon san, atá faoi chúram Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta agus b'fhéidir dá mba thionscail mhóra iad faoi lucht gnótha lasmuigh go mbeadh bun leis an dtuairim sin agus leis an bhfaitíos atá ar Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge. Ar aon chuma, ceist anachrannach is eadh í sin agus ní mór do pé duine a bheidh ina Chathaoirleach ar an mBord atá le cur ar bun faoin mBille a bheith an-chúramach ar fad ina thaobh mar dá mba chun labhairt na Gaeilge a lagú a bheimis agus sinn ag achtú an Bhille seo b'fhearr ná bacfaimis leis in aon chur. Ach b'fhéidir gurb é réiteach is fearr ar an gceist ná ligint don lucht gnótha na bailte sna ceantair chúnga taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht a thionsclú, agus go bhfágfaí de chúram ar an Rialtas aire a thabhairt do na ceantair sa Ghaeltacht faoi mar atá anois. Is dóigh liom gurb é sin atá ar aigne ag Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge. Ach ar a shon san is uile, is dóigh liom gur ceart go mbeadh gach buntáiste atá le fáil ó'n mBille seo le fáil ag muinntir na Gaeltachta. Ach tá aon rud amháin cinnte, go bhfuil súil ag muintir na Gaeltachta go bhfeabhsófar an saol dóibh agus go bhfuil dóchas ann go gcuirfear beartas i bhfeidhm dá bharr a raghaidh chun sochair dóibh agus chuirfidh ar a gcumas slí bheatha a bheith acu sa bhaile agus a chuirfidh deireadh leis an imirce mínádúrtha as an nGaeltacht agus as na ceantair chúnga. Tuigeann siad go dian-mhaith gurb ísle an caighdeán maireachtana atá acu ná atá ag daoine lasmuigh agus mura n-éiríonn linn an caighdeán d'ardú agus a chur ar aon-dul leis an gcaighdeán lasmuigh, nó geall leis, is fánach a bheith ag olagón i dtaobh na himirce ó na ceantair sin ó bhliain go bliain. Baileoidh na daoine leo chun slí bheatha níos fearr d'fháil thar lear nó sna bailte móra Gallda ag baile agus, mar dúirt Teachta Dála le linn an meastachán le haghaidh Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta a bheith á phlé uair, cé bheadh ina dhiaidh orthu mar gheall air sin.

Ach ní hionann sin agus a rá go bhfuil muintir na Gaeltachta agus muintir na gceantar gcúng beo bocht. Is fearr as go mór iad inniu ná mar bhídís. Duine ar bith atá ina cheann tí agus tigh agus gabháltas beag talún aige, is féidir leis slí bheatha a bhaint amach agus muirear a chothú le cabhair an mhéid a gheibheann sé ón Stát i bhfoirm deolchaire chúig phunt na Gaeilge agus mar sin de, ach is nuair a bhíonn an mhuirín fásta suas chuige a éiríonn an trioblóid. Ní féidir ach le haon duine amháin díobh fanacht ar an bpaiste talún agus, mura mbíonn obair le fáil ag na daltaí eile sa cheantar, as go brách leo agus seod luachmhar na Gaeilge in éineacht leo.

Ar aon chuma, is é an cuspóir ba cheart a bheith ag an mBord seo atá i gceist sa Bhille ná an oiread oibre agus is féidir a sholáthar do lucht na Gaeltachta in aice na Gaeltachta agus an oiread daoine agus is féidir d'fhostú sna bailte a dhéanann freastal tráchtála ar an nGaeltacht. Ach caithfear féachaint chuige nach le Béarla a ghabhfaidh siad nuair a fostófar iad sa tslí sin. Chuige sin, níor mhór do na hoifigigh a bheadh os a gcionn Gaeilge mhaith a bheith acu agus í a bheith mar theangain acu féin agus ag na daoine a bheadh ag obair fúthu le linn dóibh bheith ag obair.

Maidir le feabhsú na talún sa Ghaeltacht, is mór an méid is féidir a dhéanamh. Talamh phortaigh is ea a lán di, agus éinne a bhfuil taithí aige ar an talamh sin tá fhios aige gur féidir barraí maithe a bhaint di ach siltin a dhéanamh uirthi agus í a leasú ina dhiaidh sin. Tá triail bainte as an saghas sin talún ag Comhlucht Siúcra Éireann chun biatas d'fhás, agus, do réir dealraimh, d'éirigh go seoigh leis an iarracht. Sa tslí chéanna, is dóigh liom go bhféadfaí prátaí luatha d'fhás agus inniúin agus glasraí. Is fearr a fhásann prátaí cois farraige ná in aon áit eile agus is túisce a aibíonn siad agus ní chuireann an sioc isteach orthu mar dhéanann sé in áiteanna isteach faoin tír. D'fhéadfaí prátaí luatha a chur ag fás go fairsing sa Ghaeltacht agus iad a chur ar an margadh chomh luath agus cuirtear anseo i gContae Bhaile Átha Cliath iad. Ach níl sna rudaí sin ach samhail bheag den mhéid is féidir a dhéanamh leis an talamh, agus b'fhéidir gur fearr gan dul isteach ró-mhion sna nithe sin le linn dúinn bheith ag cur síos ar an mBille seo, mar ní leis an nGaeltacht amháin a bhaineann an Bille ach leis na ceantair chúnga ar fad. Fé mar adúrt i dtosach, iarracht mhaith is ea an Bille seo ar staid na Gaeltachta agus staid na gceantar gcúng d'fheabhsú agus traoslaím leis an Aire agus leis an Rialtas mar gheall air. Go n-éirí go geal leis an obair atá idir lámha acu.

Having made use of those few remarks in the Irish language, I will now return to a few sentences in English without, I hope, repeating what I have said in Irish, because I understand that such a procedure is not permissible in the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is hardly necessary for me to say that I welcome this Bill wholeheartedly. It is only natural that I would, coming from one of the congested areas of the country; I think I have a fair understanding of the problems that arise in those congested areas.

I regard this measure as a genuine attempt to level up economic conditions in the congested areas to the standards existing in other parts of the country. As I have already said, speaking in Irish, the implementation of this measure will depend to a large extent on the co-operation that will be forthcoming from the people for whose benefit it is intended.

I can envisage two approaches to this problem. It is quite possible that industrial development committees in these congested parts of the country will take the initiative and put up as much capital themselves as will commend the project in hands to Foras Tionscal. This capital will be supplemented by the financial help they will get from Foras Tionscal and, if they do that, it will be proof that they are in earnest about the implementation of this Bill. It could also happen that industrialists from outside would come into these congested areas and start industries without getting much or any financial help from the people living in those areas. If that happens, it will be all to the good. I was interested to hear Senator Hayes refer to the inadequacy of the inducements set forth in the Bill. I do not think he is entirely correct in that because, after all, the inducements that are being offered under this Bill would, to my mind, more than offset the competitive disadvantages under which industrialists starting industries in the congested areas would be labouring. After all, they will be getting up to 50 per cent. of the cost of machinery and the equipment necessary for the carrying out of these industries—and I suppose 50 per cent. of the cost of the buildings. As well as that, they will be getting cheap electrical power, cheap gas, sewerage and water facilities. It is up to the local authorities also to grant them a remission of rates.

There is one matter in connection with the granting of a remission of rates by a local authority to which I should like to refer. I wonder is it wise to leave it to the will of the local authority to grant this remission? They need not do so, if they like, under this Bill. I have had experience of local authorities in my time where they were asked to co-operate with the central authority in the carrying out of certain projects for the benefit of the Gaeltacht and unfortunately that co-operation was not forthcoming. I have a case in mind, for instance, where Seirbhisí na Gaeltachta, after consultation with the Office of Public Works, decided to erect a pier in a certain part of the Gaeltacht and the only condition that the local authority were called upon to fulfil was the maintenance of the pier afterwards, which would be a negligible responsibility. Negligible though that responsibility was, they would not accept it and the project had to be abandoned. That is why I ask whether it is wise to leave it to the will of the local authority to grant a remission of rates or whether some provision could not be included in the Bill to make it mandatory because we have such a provision in connection with the granting of cheap rates for electricity. Section 10 provides:

"The Electricity Supply Board shall, if so required by Order of the Minister, made on the recommendation of the board constituted under this Act, supply to an industrial undertaking in an undeveloped area electrical current for any purpose at a rate not exceeding the lowest rate at which current is provided for that purpose in any part of the State."

So far as the granting of concessions in connection with the supply of electricity is concerned, there is a definite provision, a positive provision in the Bill. That does not apply to the question of the remission of rates. However, that is a point that can be debated later on the Committee Stage.

As to the areas that should be included under this Bill, I am very glad that the Minister resisted any attempt to bring in areas other than those that have been defined in connection with the setting up of the Congested Districts Board, because the more a scheme of this kind is widened, the less its effect will be, and if, as had been demanded in the other House, certain other areas in the country were to be included holus-bolus, that would defeat the purpose of the Bill. The Minister is quite right to reserve to himself the function of making an Order to have any area in the country which could be regarded as a necessitous area or a depressed area, as circumstances might reveal, brought within the terms of the Bill.

I am also pleased to know that it is now the intention to bring in existing industries under this Bill. My view is that, if any industrialist had the courage before now to go into one of these isolated areas and start an industry or industries, he should be rewarded for his courage in taking the risk instead of having anything in this measure that would tend to operate against him.

As to the circumstances under which Foras Tionscal will give financial assistance to existing concerns, there is a certain amount of confusion in my mind whether the proposed expansion of the concern in question will be sufficient or whether it will be necessary for that concern to embark upon a different line of business. I think there should be no distinction between the two. If it could be reasonably expected that an expansion of an existing plant and the widening of its operations would give any additional employment and redound to the economic welfare of the country on the whole, I think that should be quite sufficient.

As Senator Hayes has stated, we must always be very circumspect when it comes to the question of starting industries in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. The view might be held that this board—Foras Tionscal— should start right in the heart of the Gaeltacht with its activities and let the Breac-Ghaeltacht and the other congested parts of the country follow suit. I think the decision for industrialists to concentrate on the centres of population adjacent to the Gaeltacht is a better proposition. As Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge pointed out, if big industries were to be started in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht—and, of course, there is no reason why they should not—it would be necessary for technicians to be brought in who would have no knowledge of Irish. These might have an anglicising influence on the Gaeltacht. At the same time, even though that has been taken into account as the Minister said there is nothing in this measure to prevent any industrialist or group of industrialists from going into the Gaeltacht and starting industries. If they do, and if they succeed without as I have said, doing damage to the spoken language or to the preservation of the language in the Gaeltacht, it will be all to the good.

I would like to refer to the constitution of the board. I am glad that the Minister has decided to confine the personnel to three, because our experience of large boards with a weighty personnel is that they do not do business expeditiously. The smaller the board the more expeditiously will the business be done. I think that is the experience of everybody. While the operation of the measure will continue over seven years, the members of the board are to be only appointed for five years. I think it would be better if the term of office of the members of the board coincided with the term of the Bill's operation. If the members have to retire after five years there will be two years left for the Bill to continue to operate. The members may be reelected or other people may be brought in, but the continuity of the work upon which they would be engaged would be more or less interefered with. This is just an idea that has struck me. I would like to hear an explanation from the Minister why the members have to retire after five years instead of seven.

As I said in my opening speech in Irish, there are many ways in which assistance can be given to the Gaeltacht, and there are many Departments involved. There is the Department of Agriculture, which must of necessity have an interest in the Gaeltacht from the point of view of encouraging the cultivation of certain crops in the Gaeltacht. Apropos of that, I have in mind a certain crop in County Kerry which is a great source of revenue to the people there, namely, the onion crop in the Dingle peninsula in the neighbourhood of Castlegregory. The difficulty with onion growers is that they have not the proper facilities to save the onions. If onion growing is to be a real thriving industry—and, of course, it should—financial assistance should be made available by Foras Tionscal for the erection of appropriate sheds for the drying and saving of these onions. I am giving that as a case in point. The Department of Agriculture would also have something to say about that. The same thing applies to the growing of vegetables in the Gaeltacht.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are discussing the things that Foras Tionscal might take on.

I do not want to elaborate on the matter. I do not want to follow that line for too long. I am just trying to point out that there are various ways in which we can come to the rescue of the people in the Gaeltacht apart entirely from what is in this Bill.

I wish to conclude by congratulating the Minister on the introduction of this measure. It is the greatest attempt yet to turn the industrial tide from the East to the West and I hope and trust that it will succeed.

In prefacing what I want to say on this Bill, I should like to thank the Tánaiste—and I am sure the House feels the same way about it—for the most lucid and illuminating introduction he has given us to this Bill. It was, in a sense, a political education in itself to hear all the subtleties and all the difficulties of this Bill being brought out so clearly and so instructively. It is, of course, a most welcome and a most timely Bill. I take it that its aims are to prevent both emigration and migration. In a few months I hope we shall have the report of the State Commission on Emigration and it would be foolish to dwell on that now. The results of migration are clear all around us in the City of Dublin as we pass through the outer suburbs. All the endless stretches of new houses which are going up, often without design, show how dangerous is the drift towards the city and especially towards the City of Dublin. This drift is good neither for Dublin nor for the country. The time has come when Dublin is overgrown; and soon it may be described as, I think, William Cobbett described London, as a great wen which was distorting the face of England. I hope Dublin will not become a wen distorting the face of Ireland.

In contrast with the growing suburbs of the City of Dublin, many parts of the West are almost derelict, and it is a sad sight to see them. But besides ruined houses you see something in the West which is more significant—you see ruined mills. That is to be seen in all parts of Ireland. I remember that in Dundrum, County Tipperary, where I used to live—right in the heart of the country—quite close to us was a typical ruined mill with a stream flowing by, the wheel gone and the walls crumbling. I take it that under this Bill we want to restore something like those rural industries or else to build up new ones in the outlying regions.

I want to refer to something mentioned by Senator Professor Hayes, because I think it is a matter of the greatest importance. Economic measures are not enough. Of course, they are necessary; of course they must be taken—but they are not enough. I do not think the problem of the derelict areas is simply a matter of placing and building factories and workshops in them. There is the need to foster a full community life—recreations, amusements, sports and, of course, good housing. Recently, in an industrial paper which is kindly sent to members of the Seanad by its proprietors, I read of some of the difficulties which face employers in outlying parts. There is the difficulty not merely of gathering workers together from distant parts of the country but also of keeping them there in face of the attractions, the bright lights and freer life of the City of Dublin, London, Belfast, or whatever it may be. It is very hard for employers, no matter how high the wages they pay, to keep workers in the outlying parts unless their life is made agreeable. That is what I should like to insist on. Big wages and good working conditions are not enough. A better life must be offered which will take away the lure of the bigger cities.

I hope that those who implement this Bill will have this in mind and act upon it. The Tánaiste made it quite clear in his speech that he had it in mind and that we could not rival England in founding big new industrial towns. I have forgotten the precise term they use to describe these big new industrial centres, but I have seen one near St. Albans in England. It is of vast design and everything is planned. We cannot do that. But no matter how big the wages, no matter how attractive the factory, if the leisure of the workers is not catered for they will not stay in the country. They need a reasonably pleasant life in their leisure time. Otherwise, they will go to the bright lights and the freer life of the city.

Paragraph 5 of the Bill refers to industrial undertakings. I wonder if this means that the manufacture of utilitarian goods only will be considered—or is allowance made for arts and crafts? I have in mind the Waterford glass industry of the past, and the Belleek china and Limerick lace industries of the present. I wonder if, in some cases, it does not suit our national temperament to have artistic industries and crafts rather than some kind of heavy industry or the manufacture of utility goods. Perhaps the Minister will be good enough to tell me if the Arts Council could be asked to co-operate in this connection and whether there is a chance of setting up useful and profitable artistic and industrial centres. Take, for instance, wood carving, stone carving and so forth. I have in mind also the very good printing works in Kerry, the Kerryman, which can undercut some of the printers in Dublin, although it is located in the far South-West. It is possible that the setting-up of a printing establishment might ease the strain in that particular trade. Then we have Connemara marble, which is a unique and beautiful stone. The only articles I have seen on the market made of that stone were very admirable, though ordinary, Celtic crosses and some simple and silly green pigs. Could we not do something better with that magnificant stone, under the terms of this Bill? It is a stone which is well worth using and which has not been used as it should be used.

Finally, I must sing an old song— but if it is old it is a sad and a serious song. I see once again that there are compulsory powers for the acquisition of land. Every three months we have a Bill which contains compulsory powers for the acquisition of land. Of course, there is compensation; of course, it is necessary and, of course, we must grant it. However, I must say that I consider that it is dangerous. Each step is putting a weapon in the hands of people who might in the future misuse it. I hope we shall never have a dictatorial or an unjust Government in this country, but heaven help us if we have, because, as far as I can see, all the land in the country could be seized under one Act of Parliament or another.

If we want this Bill to succeed, the leisure of the workers must be attended to as well as their economic conditions. I hope, too, that the traditional arts and crafts of this country, and perhaps some new ones, will be fostered under this Bill.

Coming from one of the areas for which this Bill has been designed, I might be expected to have every welcome for it—and I have. However, I really do not visualise the possibility of new industries being set up in the districts that this Bill has been designed to serve. To prevent migration—and what is worse emigration—from the congested areas you would need to have industries set up there which to my mind are impossible because you have not the industrial power or the transport facilities. I hope this Bill will provide for the development and expansion of industries that exist in those areas at present. Many homesteads or farms in the vicinity in which I live have a very low valuation—I believe that in a radius of five miles from my town the average valuation would be about £3—yet the people do not get from the land so valued the produce they could get if they had certain facilities. Here I come to the question of drainage. In many cases, those carrying on existing industries, pig feeding or poultry feeding, for many years and who know all about those industries and do not have to be trained for them could utilise the land better if they had more facilities.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is very much out of order.

If this Bill is to develop undeveloped areas, I am giving a way in which it could be done. Apart from that, there is another industry which could be fostered, I hope, through this Bill. That is the production of fuel. I have heard lately that Córas Iompair Éireann are at present interested in perfecting a turf-burning engine. In no place in Ireland is there better turf than in Achill. That reminds me of the deplorable lack of foresight that was responsible for discontinuing the railway line to Achill. Apart from the turf industry, that railway line would have been an inducement to industrialists to initiate industries in that area.

As I said at the outset, I do not see the possibility of industries being set up in rural areas, simply because as this Bill depends on private enterprise I cannot see how in the undeveloped areas there would be people able to put up the necessary capital and they have the desirable facilities even if they were ready to put up the money in the morning. In the South Mayo area, around Ballinrobe, many farmers go in for sheep farming, and the amount of the wool clip exported from that area would, if fabricated in the area, give employment to many. There are residents prepared to put up some capital to finance such an industry and I trust that, if representations come to the new board from these people, they will be sympathetically considered.

I come from a town where under British rule an industry flourished for years—lace-making. It kept about 50 girls employed. They carried on much of that work at home and certainly earned a remunerative return. That has passed away. Perhaps the taste has died out for that particular commodity, but I know that when it was in existence it gave employment where it was very much needed. There is also the possibility of developing certain minerals in South and East Mayo. Some time ago, an industry was started there——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am afraid the Senator is out of order. This is all a matter for An Foras Tionscal when established. It is no harm to suggest certain things, but the Senator cannot develop points about all these industries. That would be a matter for the Committee Stage.

With all due respect, I am referring to the openings there to start new industries. This mineral with certain cleansing properties was worked some 15 or 20 years ago but was worked uneconomically. The clay was sent to Dublin, packeted and distributed from the city. I hope that industry may be revived and that it will be made possible to distribute it from the centre at which it is produced. That would give much employment. The industry in its early days received a set back from an English combine with which it was in competition and many believe still that that combine is at the back of the reasons why that industry has not been revived since then.

I wish to repeat that I would welcome the Bill if I could see that it would bring immediate benefits, but candidly I do not see that. I will be very satisfied and pleased to ensure any co-operation that I can give towards providing the benefits the Bill has been designed to give but which I fear it will not.

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

I must say that I agree with the Minister's opening address and explanation of this Bill. Any effort by a Minister of State to decentralise the industry of this country is an effort to make a contribution to a very pressing and urgent national problem. So far there has been too much development of our industries in the eastern counties and, if something is not done to grapple with that problem at present, it may be beyond our economic capacity to deal with it at a later stage. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Government when replying to Senator Johnston on the Imposition of Duties Bill, as reported in column 43 of the Official Report for 21st November, said that we would be afforded an opportunity of discussing the decentralisation of industry, with particular reference to the underdeveloped areas, on this Bill.

I should like to make some remarks with regard to the decentralisation of industry, with special reference to the decentralisation of industry in undeveloped areas. There is one matter of which I should like the Minister to give us some clarification when replying. Speaking at Tramore some months ago the Minister stated that it was now the policy of Irish Shipping Limited to build 9,500 ton ships for the purpose of transatlantic and other deep-sea traffic, and it was also the policy of that board to build some small coasting steamers. If we decentralise our industry around the ports of Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford, and none of these ports is able to use ships which this State owns, I believe that it will have a very bad effect on industrialists whom we will try to induce to put money into the development of those areas. Much public uneasiness would be allayed if the Minister would give us a statement as to what is the Government's policy with regard to this matter. If it is in the national interest to build these ships, facilities will have to be made available out of State funds to allow our ports to use these ships.

The Minister also referred to the development of turf, minerals and forestry in these areas. I should like to deal with the question of turf because I believe that turf should generally be used as a fuel reserve during periods of emergency or when other fuel is too dear or during periods of the year when water power is not available. The reason why I say that is that when the national board and the paper mills were about to be established it was originally intended to site that industry in the County Tipperary. It was found, however, that no place could be found for a site where sufficient turf would be available over a long period to allow that industry to be established. The problem was something like this: a town housing perhaps 5,000 people might be built around that industry and then, when the turf in that area would be used up, it might be decided that the industry would have to be removed, and the people would be left there. That would be a very serious problem. I think that in these undeveloped areas we ought to do something about the development of small hydro-electric schemes.

The Electricity Supply Board has a very heavy problem at present in developing large schemes. I wonder would it be possible to assist private enterprise under this Bill to develop hydro-electric schemes producing 5,000, 10,000 or 15,000 kilowatts which in ten, 15 or 20 years could be handed over on a valuation basis to the Electricity Supply Board. It is even possible that firms of constructional engineers might take on that type of work, particularly if they got Government asistance. We may want to conserve our turf supplies in order to use them as a boost during the time of the year when water would be scarce and during the time when coal and fuel oil are scarce. We cannot hope to have for all time an unlimited supply of these resources which are to be found in the undeveloped areas.

The Minister is now giving us an opportunity of developing these areas and we ought to develop them in a long-term way which will be of benefit to the State. I agree that the problem of the Gaeltacht and of the undeveloped areas is not economic alone. There are other aspects to it. One aspect that I think ought to be considered is that we should try to give the people in the Gaeltacht and in the undeveloped areas houses of their own. If people have a house, a small garden and a little bit of property they will not fold their tents like the Arabs and steal away to England or elsewhere in search of employment. They will have something of their own to hold them in their country.

I do not think we have given enough thought to that aspect as a stabilising factor in the lives of our people. If our people have some sense of pride of ownership they will not leave should temporary unemployment come. There is no advantage in taxing our people in order to finance State ownership. It would be better to have private ownership of property.

The Minister said there was one point which troubled him in the other House and in which be put in an amendment; that was in connection with assisting already established industries. I think the board would need to be watchful in that regard. There is nothing to stop a particular industry establishing two or three subsidiary companies from time to time, even in the same factory, for the purpose of getting grants. The board will require full powers of refusing any grant if they think any industry, to use a colloquial expression, is trying to put it across them.

I want to sound one note of warning. I do not like giving powers to a board of this kind without giving the Minister for Finance some veto. Statutory bodies under the Department of Local Government have an uncanny facility for spending the maximum amount of money. In doing so they consider they are doing a good job. I hope this board will not think it is doing a good job if it spends as much as is granted each year because the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Industry and Commerce has no authority over it. The board should be made answerable to somebody and should be made to render an account of its stewardship.

I welcome this Bill. I am sure we all hope it will achieve the results indicated in its objective. But it is, after all, merely an experiment and perhaps we ought to sound a word of caution. Many people will expect that because this Bill provides a couple of million pounds for developing industry in the West the magic wand has at last become available and industries will spring into being overnight.

I was rather surprised at the number of Deputies who assailed private enterprise in the Dáil. I do not believe anyone would urge that the State itself should in fact go into the areas covered by this Bill and provide the type of employment we hope will be provided there, and ensure that that enterprise will be self-supporting. Private enterprise is only too eager and too willing to go west of the Shannon. It must be said, however, that it is not enough to give speculators a certain degree of help to mitigate the disadvantages. If we want to face this in a realistic manner, then these would-be industrialists must be given, and must continue to enjoy, advantages which will enable them to remain in business in face of competition from people who will remain on this side of the Shannon.

I want to see this Bill achieve something, and I appeal to the people in the areas concerned to show more initiative than they have shown up to the present. Deputies and Senators are continually being assailed by people from country districts appealing for industries in particular towns or villages. In how many places have the local people themselves taken the trouble to discover what local raw materials are in existence or what advantages they can offer to anybody willing to go into the area and establish some industry there? I urge these people to get a copy of the import list, showing all the goods we continue to bring in, many of which we need not import, and most of which we hope will before long be manufactured in the areas covered by this Bill.

I believe there are in Dublin at the moment industries that need not of necessity be centred in Dublin. If sufficient inducements are held out to them to go west of the Shannon, I believe they will lend a ready ear. It will be no use passing this Bill and then sitting back waiting for it to achieve miraculous results. It will not do that.

The Minister quite rightly pointed out that one of the biggest handicaps confronting industry in remote country districts is the cost of transport. It is inconceivable that heavy goods should be manufactured in areas remote from seaports or economic transport. We have, however, a variety of goods made in the country. Quite a number of the commodities manufactured in Dublin, Cork and elsewhere could equally well be made in the Gaeltacht itself.

We all want the Gaeltacht areas to be preserved. We are only too sorry to discover that they can now be condensed into six parishes. But there is no need to fear that there will be either Birminghams or Manchesters created in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas or anywhere else. There is a very big difference between establishing dense industrial centres and providing that degree of employment which will keep people in the localities in which they were born and reared.

I should not be surprised if there are quite a lot of things which on investigation would be found suitable for manufacture in the cottage type of industries. In some areas, notably Donegal, certain enterprising people have through a co-operative effort marketed the goods of a number of small households. I believe I am correct in my interpretation of the Bill when I say that if someone in the congested areas were to organise the people in cottage industries already in existence or which may be established in the future, they would come under the scope of this Bill.

I think these few suggestions are practical. I hope the Bill will achieve something but too much must not be expected of it even if its implementation is left solely to private enterprise.

I welcome the introduction of this Bill as much for the purpose and the mind behind it, and for its approach to our whole economic and social problems, as for what it actually may do. We had a great deal of discussion here recently about what we style disequilibrium in our external trade, but all too little attention has been given to the disequilibrium in our internal economic and social life. While we are very disturbed by the fact that we are not to-day balancing our foreign purchases with exports, we have never tried to study, or to think of how much of a contribution has been made to that unsatisfactory condition by the other fact that there has been such a disbalancing in our internal productive machinery as to be the cause of a great disturbance to all of us, if we attempt to think about it.

I feel that James Connolly gave all of us a very sound philosophy to dwell upon when he said: "Ireland, as distinct from its people, means nothing to me." I would hope that that is the approach which the Minister is making by introducing this Bill, in regard to the problems of the future, and in relation to the people of Ireland, wherever they live. I believe, and I agree with others who say, that such a proposal as this, no matter how completely it may be implemented, will not solve the problem of unemployment. The Celt—I suppose there are more Celts the farther you go West than there are anywhere else—is a wandering type and so a certain number will wander away no matter what the conditions are at home. Up to the present there has been no real effort made to tackle the problem at its base. While this Bill may not solve it, it is at least, as Senator Summerfield has said, an experiment, and much can be learned from how the experiment works.

The first point I would like to make is that we may create industries by the aid of the grants which will be made available to enterprising people under this Bill. I want to say it is very important, for the health of the districts where these industries are to be created, that you do not create greater disequilibrium in the districts concerned. I am not going to get into a discussion on agriculture in Connacht or anywhere else. The Minister, however, has on a number of occasions addressed himself to, and commented upon, the static condition of production in agriculture. Production from the land is lower in Connacht, relatively, than it is in any other part of the country. That is due to reasons into which I am not going to go.

I want to suggest to the Minister that it is very important that, side by side with the creation of industrial opportunity, an effort should be made to try and keep a balance for the sake of the economic and social life of these areas. If conditions are such that you are going to create industries, small or relatively large, in many centres all over the place, and if there is not a corresponding increase in agricultural output and in the earnings of the people, side by side with that industrial expansion, I do not know how things are going to go. I suggest to the Minister that account must be taken of that situation. I want to bring to his attention the fact that the report of the Industrial Credit Corporation issued the other day indicated that, since it was established, something like £14,000,000 had been invested in capital enterprises of an industrial character throughout the country. I would ask the Minister to find out from his colleagues, one, two or three of them, how much, in the same period, has been put into agriculture. I suggest that, if he does so, he will find a very good reason why agricultural output has not been increasing while output in other directions has been increasing. That is a factor which must be taken into account as regards the industrial development which the Minister visualises under this Bill.

As regards the problems which are going to confront promoters under this Bill, they are not at all simple. Senator Summerfield has suggested to us that one has only to take up the statistical abstracts, or other reports available to us, to see the volume and the value of our imports. While that is true, I want to say this, that when you come to study those reports and attempt to break them down it is going to be very difficult for potential promoters, either west of the Shannon or elsewhere, to determine what type of industry they would like to create here in the future. For the first time in my life I had some experience of this recently, and what I am going to say to the Minister is, I think, of vital importance if anything at all is to come from this measure. You go to the officials who are dealing with this problem of industrial expansion—and here I want to pay a tribute to their industry, capacity and readiness to place at your disposal whatever information is available to them—and put the query to them that you want to start an industry. Taking our trade figures or our figures for imports, you may think that you might enter upon some line of manufacture. You may get a suggestion or perhaps you may come to a decision yourself. When, however, you come to get all the data you require in regard to imports of a particular type, you cannot find anywhere within this State, the information sufficiently broken down to an order sufficiently small to enable you to come to a firm decision. That being the position, I pity the poor Connacht man who will come up to Dublin as a potential promoter from a small town or anywhere else in the West, or even from a small town in my own county, with the idea of promoting an industry there. He will be confronted with so many difficulties and obstacles that I am afraid he will get tired long before he has his proposal in shape to make it acceptable to the trio who are to form this board, and whose duty it will be to determine what assistance they are prepared to give him.

What I want to suggest to the Minister is that if we are to get anywhere with this Bill, he will, first of all, have to try and get our statistics so clarified that when people come along with proposals the information available to them will be sufficiently clear to enable them to come to a decision to go on with their projects, without having the fear that they are on the wrong line, or that, when they have got their proposal in shape and are ready to come to a decision, it is not going to be completely torpedoed.

A considerable amount has been done as regards industrialisation in this country. It seems to me that the cream has been skimmed off the market, and that at the present time there is not a great deal of opportunity left in a big way in that direction. While it was perhaps easy enough in the years gone by for promoters to come along with ideas and dash in and find the available credit, it will be more difficult in the future, and it is very important for those who are sufficiently enterprising not to be discouraged by the fact that when they go along to get the necessary information, the information is there for them in the form in which it ought to be. The Minister is probably aware of the situation himself. I am not finding fault with anyone because the conditions are as they are. I have had the opportunity of realising what these difficulties are in obtaining information. Our statistical department will make the effort to obtain from importers the returns of what we take into the country. It seems to me that there is very great difficulty in having these figures broken down into their component parts, in classifying the products in the classifications in which they ought to be able to find them so that we will know exactly what each product means.

I am quite well aware that there are difficulties in getting returns from importers and traders generally. Perhaps that is due to a variety of causes, not the least because, in a number of instances, decisions in regard to quotas and licences are determined by the returns which traders and importers will make to the Department of Industry and Commerce. One wonders at times whether all these figures are absolutely reliable. I have the feeling that if our statistical department made an effort, and if we had some central body dealing with it—whether it be the Industrial Development Authority or whether it be done in the Minister's own Department, that is a matter to be determined by somebody else, not by me—we could obtain correct information from importers and traders as to what exactly our imports mean, and they could be informed that this information was being sought for the purpose of clarifying the position for those who want to start new industries in the country. That would produce a much clearer and a much truer picture of the position than that which is available to us at present.

I had a great deal of experience in this recently, because I have, with some others, interested myself in a new product which presents enormous difficulties when you come close to grips with it. You found the situation in the Minister's own Department that you got a table of figures, but you also find this situation—and it rather pleased one of my colleagues in a recent visit to the Minister's Department—that you are not at liberty to use that set of figures because they have been got under a seal of secrecy. They represent a picture from a number of traders in the country, and the Department is not at liberty to reveal what traders are doing. I think that is quite right. The net result is that although you get the figures you can hardly use them, and not being able to use them it is very difficult to make a case to any finance corporation or anybody else as to what exactly is the strength of your case. That is the position that obviously must be clarified, and it is not a satisfactory situation from the point of view of people who are going to promote industry in the future.

It was much easier in the beginning when the field was wide open but now the circle is narrowing every day. You could produce what appears to be an eminently practical and worthwhile proposal and suddenly have the whole thing torpedoed because of something which arises but about which you had no information—somebody is doing something some place else, whilst that is only discovered at the last minute and you are further back than where you started. That is in regard to the general question and I suggest to the Minister that it is a matter that requires serious examination immediately if anything is to come as a result of this measure.

I heard Senator Kissane and others address themselves to the problem with which this measure was going to deal. The first thing we must make up our minds about is that the first aim of any industry, no matter where it is established, is that it should be an efficient industry. If it is not going to be efficient I do not think it ought to be there at all. I do not see any purpose in establishing industries anywhere in this State merely to have people going in and out drawing wages and appearing to be employed while the community are paying for a kind of service which is not efficient. We must not establish industries in Connacht, in the Gaeltacht or in the Breac-Ghaeltacht merely for the sake of giving employment. If the State is to assist industries to be built up there, let them be built up on the basis that either there is a raw material locally to be exploited or there are people there who can engage in the production of a commodity which the country wants. It ought to be the aim of the promoters, and the people who go into an industry to prove that the men and women who work there are as good as any men and women in the world and to do their job as efficiently and work as hard, if not harder. If we set that as the aim there is no reason why a very efficient industry cannot be built up in many centres. Irishmen and women can go over to the beet-fields in Anglia, the farms in England and Scotland, doing a day and a half's work in the time that it takes an Englishman to do a day's work. There is no reason in the world why Irish people working in mills, factories or farms in Ireland could not apply themselves to the development of industry here in a similar manner. If there are organisations and people with the point of view that there must be restrictive practices adopted and we must only do so and so, let us fold up our tents, because we can make up our minds that we will get nowhere.

I want to address myself to one aspect of this matter to which the Minister gave some attention towards the end. He states specifically in his measure the areas to which the Bill is to apply when it becomes an Act. He takes power, however, to extend those areas. I want to be quite frank about this. I would like to express the view that the Minister should be specific now as to the areas under this Bill where this sort of assistance is to be given to industry. The Minister has spoken of the measure as applying to the congested districts. I do not know what one means by congested to-day. I suppose the most congested district in the country just now is Dublin, and it is not being included under the scope of this Bill. Rather are we trying to get the industries out of Dublin. Therefore, congested districts or congestion are misnomers. Surely, an Act passed by Britain in 1908 or 1909 is not something to which we need necessarily keep to-day. Our county homes and hospitals were called workhouses in the days of the British régime here. We do not want to go back to that position surely. Are we not trying to march forward? I feel that the term "congested district" should not have been accepted at all as the basis for this Bill.

If one takes another test as to the areas to which this Bill should apply, I do not know any fairer or sounder test than the test of emigration. The Minister has said that he believes he will include County Cavan or West Cavan in the Bill by an Order. I am in difficulty about this matter, because I do not know exactly how the Minister is going to operate his Order. He will have to inform me so that I may clear my mind on the matter. I am not aware if he has studied an area like West Cavan on the map or if he has studied it from the point of view of population, emigration and so forth.

There are a number of counties included in the Bill which, on the basis of the 1946 census, have the following emigration figures: Sligo, 7.5 per cent.; Leitrim, 12.4 per cent.; Roscommon, 6.5 per cent.; Donegal, 4.2 per cent.; Galway, 1.8 per cent.; Mayo, 8.2 per cent.; Kerry, 4.2 per cent.; and Cavan, which is not included in the Bill, 8.2 per cent. On the basis of emigration figures, a much stronger case can be made for the inclusion under the scope of the Bill of the whole of County Cavan than for the inclusion of a number of other counties. If we are not going to consider this measure in relation to the people in a district and in relation to the possibility of keeping them there, on what basis are we to take decisions? The Minister says he can make an Order to apply this Bill to an area like West Cavan. I want him to inform me what he means by West Cavan. There was a constituency of West Cavan which extended from the Leitrim border down to Blacklion until it joined the Longford border up at Kilcogy near the bridge of Finea. Is that what the Minister has in mind in regard to West Cavan? If the area which he has in mind stretches from the River Erne at Belturbet and extends to the west, then I want to say to him that he has excluded areas where the population decreases, for instance, Killeshandra, where the population decrease was 14 per cent., and Arva, on the Leitrim-Longford border, where the population decrease was 12.5 per cent.

Might I suggest to the Senator that it would be better to discuss that matter on the Committee Stage.

I hope to discuss it on the Committee Stage also, but I am trying to elicit from the Minister now what he is going to do in relation to areas like these. Is he going to await a proposal from such areas before he makes an Order, or is he going to make an Order under this measure and see what will happen afterwards if there are people ready to exploit the possibilities? I would like the Minister to clarify this whole matter and when I hear what he has to say, I will determine my attitude in relation to the movement of amendments.

I have raised a number of points which occurred to me in reference to the usefulness of the measure, in regard to the difficulties confronting people who are trying to get something done as a result of it and in regard to the particular problem which confronts people like myself. I feel that this is a measure which we should have thought of long ago. I was a member of the Gaeltacht Commission in 1925. I went with others to the Gaeltacht areas and met the people in groups, saw them in their homes, talked to them in the bogs and the hayfields and stated the problem, in so far as I was competent to do so, in regard to the economics of their farms. There was no proposition then that something like the measure under discussion should be brought forward. Now that it has come, I hope it will be accepted with the calm and balanced enthusiasm which the Minister himself displayed. It is not going to work wonders, as I said in the beginning. It is the frame of mind which has conceived this measure which is more welcome to me than anything else, because it shows that there is appreciation of a problem which all of us have for too long ignored.

Coming as I do from a place that cannot possibly hope to benefit from this measure, and which may expect to suffer because of it, I want to say, nevertheless, that I welcome this Bill wholeheartedly. The areas in which industries have already been established may be rather disturbed when they see a sum of £2,000,000 being allocated by way of inducement to other areas to start industries. When they know that portion of this money could be used to help in the development of industries already established, they may feel even more disturbed. I hope that the Minister and his Department, when they are making these moneys available, will not allow, in the expansion of these industries, unfair competition with industries which have been established in the places that I have mentioned. I hope also that, when new industries are being established in the areas that have been specified, due regard will be given to those industries which have been established throughout the country already and which have reached a degree of prosperity. I say again that I welcome this measure because I realise it is intended to benefit areas which the Parliament of this country should do everything possible to assist.

I am inclined to agree with Senator Hayes when he says in his speech that he doubts if sufficient inducement is being given to new industries to balance against the disadvantage of establishing themselves in these remote places. However, I am sure that, when the board is established and making awards to private enterprise, it will take into consideration that it might need something more than balance in order to induce industrialists, or others, to put their money into such industries. I lived for a long time in the West of Ireland many years ago, and, though the West is generally reckoned to be destitute, I found in many of the small towns there very much more money in circulation than there was in circulation at that time in towns, even bigger towns, in the more prosperous places like Tipperary and other counties. I have no doubt that the people with money in these small towns will take every advantage of the inducements that are now being offered and that, in that regard, the awards, even if they only balance against the disadvantages, may not prevent moneyed people from starting industries in their own areas.

I should like to mention particularly, if I may, County Donegal. I lived for short periods in that county on several different occasions, and I reckon that of all the counties of the Twenty-Six, Donegal is one which should have very special attention. While I was there, I discovered that the main market, the real market, for the Donegal people was in the Six Counties, in the matter of goods which these people had to sell and, in fact, for goods which they had to buy. Donegal is joined to the remainder of the Twenty-Six Counties by a very narrow strip of land, and the northern portion of it is situated at a great distance from that narrow strip of land. I believe that the people of Donegal are making material sacrifices in order to maintain unity with the remainder of the Twenty-Six Counties. On that account, I think the Minister and his Department might use some extra means to induce industrialists to develop industries in County Donegal.

There is another angle that I have on the development of these areas and I am wondering whether it is relevant to this Bill. To my mind there is a need in this country for a Gaelic version of Butlin's Mosney Camp. I have been wondering whether it would not be possible to establish in Mayo, or in some other part of the Western counties, a purely Gaelic camp. I am quite satisfied that there would be abundant patronage for such a camp. I was for several years chairman of Coiste na bPaisde in the South-Riding of Tipperary and one of the greatest difficulties we experienced was to find suitable places to which we could send young people. Eventually the little organisation we had collapsed because of that difficulty. The camp I am suggesting, however, is not one to cater for people of that description and I merely mention that particular situation to show the difficulty that exists for people who wish to spend their holidays in a purely Gaelic area. I know that if such a camp were established—I do not mean a camp with chalets such as they have in Mosney but one that would conform more to local ideas—in some place on the Western coast, there would be abundant patronage for it for the summer months from all over Ireland. I am hoping that such an undertaking will be within the scope of this measure and that the people of that part of the country will give serious consideration to the question of providing such an amenity for the people of the rest of Ireland. I have nothing more to say except to repeat that, though I come from a part of the country that can never hope to benefit by this measure —rather the reverse—I welcome the Bill as a genuine attempt to do something for the most depressed parts of the country.

Is maith liom go bhfuil fáilte roimh an Bhille seo sa tSeanaid—Bille ar bith a chuireas feabhas agus biseach ar an Ghaeltacht agus na ceantair bhochta san iarthar níor chóir go mbeadh doicheall roimhe anseo. Molaim an tAire as an Bhille a chur chun tosaigh agus an míniú soiléir a thug sé dúinn. Tá muinín láidir agam fosta as an Rúnaí Parlaiminte Ó Loinsigh go ndéanfaidh sé a dhícheall an méid mhaithis atá sa Bhille a bhaint as. Tá sé óg, urrúnta agus an díogras agus an dúthracht cheart ann le dhul i gcionn na hoibre seo. Bhí amhras ar chuid de na daoine go mbainfí tairbhe pholaitíochta as an Bhille seo. Ní shílim go ndéanfar sin mar is ceíst náisiúnta ceist na Gaeltachta agus ba chóir go mbeadh sí os cionn gach gnaithe polaitíochta. Níor mhaith liom féin go mbeadh claonadh ar bith polaitíochta i bhfostó leis.

Cuireadh an Bille seo faoi mhionscrúdú sa Dáil sa chaoi nach dtig mórán nua a rá annseo air ach ba mhaith liom cupla rud a chur roímh an Aire.

Tá eagla orm go mbeidh sé doilidh fir fháil sa Ghaeltacht, nó san Fhíor-Ghaeltacht, a bhfuil an t-airgead le spáráil acu le cur i dtionscal ar bith. Tá a leithéid gann sna ceantair bhochta seo. Ach tá súil agam go mbeidh fir sa tír a chuirfeas airgead ar fáil agus a rachas i gcomhar leis an Rialtas chun tionscail oiriúnacha a chur ar bun mar tá leagtha amach sa Bhille seo. Sa chás seo mholfainn don Rialtas na tionscail nua seo a bheith saor ó cháin ioncaim ar feadh deích mbliana ar a laghad.

Ó cuireadh an Stát seo ar bun ba iad na bailte móra agus na cathracha a fuair an bhuntáiste i dtaca le tionscail. Más mall is mithíd tarrtháil a thabhairt ar an Ghaeltacht anois. Mura bhfaighe an Rialtas daoine saibhre le dhul i gcomhar leo beidh orthu an t-ualach a iompar iad féin. Is maith is fiú saothrú seasmhach a thabhairt do na daoine seo agus iad a choinneáil go téagartha ar a dtalamh dhúchais. Ró-fhada bhí siad i muinín oibreacha fóirthine, saothrú sealadach ó láimh go béal.

Anois i dtaca le tionscail nua ní bheidh sé furas tús a chur orthu sa Ghaeltacht. Ní raibh Gaeltarra Éireann ar bun le fiche bliain gan tionscail nua d'fhéacháil ansiud as anseo san iarthar.

Le linn ama fuair siad an t-eolas go mb'fhearr claonadh leis na seantionscail dúchasacha, feabhas a chur orthu sin agus iad a leathnú amach do réir mar gheofaí margadh dóibh.

Tionscal dúchasach obair na holla sa Ghaeltacht. Uaidh sin tig an bréidín, an báinín, snáth cniotála, cniotáil, brait urláir, bróidneoireacht agus obair láimhe mar sin.

Chuaigh tionscal an bhréidín go mór ar aghaidh faoi stiúradh Ghaeltarra Éireann i dTír Chonaill le seal bliana anois. Tá monarchain acu i gCill Chártha san Fhíor-Ghaeltacht a níos éadach an Chloig-Thúir—Round Tower Tweeds—agus níl sárú an éadaigh seo ar a dheiseacht, ar a sheasmhacht agus a theacht aniar. Tá buaidh ar leith ag an éadach seo a thig ón seol láimhe agus cáilíocht speisialta nach bhfuil in éadach na n-inneall.

Dá mb'fhéidir a dhéanamh ba chóir go bhfágfaí an cheird seo—fíodóireacht an tseoilláimhe—ag fíodóirí na Gaeltachta amháin. Ba cheart é a chosnadh ar dhóigh éigin dhóibh. Ní maith liom an seantionscal seo a bheith ag sleamhnú ón Ghaeltacht go dtí cúl-shráideanna na gcathrach. Mar an gcéanna ba mhaith liom feabhas a chur ar thionscal na cniotála agus na múinteoirí is fearr d'fháil do na cailíní atá ina chionn sa chaoi go bhfaighfí earraí neamh-choitiannta agus earraí speisialta ón Ghaeltacht nach bhfaighfí in áit ar bith eile.

Mar an gcéanna leis na brait urláir agus obair láimhe mar é; beidh teagasc agus treoir de dhíth ar na cailíní lena ndéantús a chur chun margaidh agus é a leathnú. Tá súil agam go mbeidh gléas maith margaíochta ag an fho-roinn d'iomlán na dtionscal seo. Mura bhfaighe siad an margadh ní thig leo na tionscail a leathnú amach agus saothrú a thabhairt do níos mó de mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

Ba cheart dúinn fosta cuidiú leis an fheirmeoir bheag sa Ghaeltacht. Rinne sean-Bhord na gCeantar gCúng mórán dá leithéid trí scór bliain ó shoin. Thiocfadh leis an Fho-Roinn nua leanúint den obair sin. Tionscal ann féin an fheirmeoireacht sa Ghaeltacht agus an feirmeoir a chuireas suim san obair tig leis a bheith ina shuí go te. Thiocfadh feabhas a chur ar an phór eallaigh, caoirigh, muca, éanlaith agus mar sin, agus níos mó eolais a thabhairt don fheirmeoir.

Ar iomlán cósta an iarthair tá an iascaireacht mar thionscal ag na daoine agus tá mórán den Ghaeltacht ar imeall na mara thiar. Seo tionscal ar fiú airgead a chaitheamh air ach bheadh stiúradh agus coimhéad maith de dhíth air. Beidh báid níos mó, innill níos láidre agus beidh líonta, dorugaí agus gléasraí de dhíth ar na daoine bochta seo nach dtig leo a sholáthar iad féin. Is maith líom go bhfuil Rúnaí Parlaiminte ar leith don iascaireacht agus fear ón iarthar. Tá súil agam nach aon chuairt amháin a thabhairfidh sé ar na hiascairí ach go mbeidh sé go minic i gcomhairle leo ó Thír Chonaill go Corcaigh ar an chaoi is fearr le saibhreas a bhaint as an fharraige.

Tá muinín níos mó agamsa as na sean-tionscail seo ná na tionscail nua agus mholfainn don Rialtas claonadh leo agus feabhas agus biseach a chur orthu nuair atá an chaoi acu anois.

Ba mhaith liom a lán nithe a rá i dtaobh an Bhille seo ach is dócha go mbeidh caoi againn níos déanaí mion-scrúdú a dhéanamh ar choda áirithe dhe. Ar an ócáid seo ba mhaith liom tréaslú don Aire an misneach a bheith aige an Bille seo a thabhairt isteach agus ba mhaith liom tréaslú don Rialtas fé dheoigh is fé dheireadh a leithéid a thabhairt isteach. Táim le cúig bliana fichead anuas ag fanúint le rud mar seo ach ní hé díreach an rud seo a shamhlaíos. Is le rud a bhainfeadh leis an nGaeltacht a bhíos ag súil cúig bliana fichead ó shoin. Ní leis an nGaeltacht per se a bhaineas an Bille seo ach le ceantair bhochta na hÉireann nó na ceantair chúnga. Tá siad fairsing go leor. Sé an rud is maith liom a chur in iúl an t-áthas atá orm go bhfuil an Bille inár láthair mar thosnú ar rud ba cheart a bheith déanta fadó riamh ar son na gceantar a bhí mar bhí Páidín fadó nuair ná fuair sé ach an chuid ba chaoile den mheacan. Ní bhfuair an Ghaeltacht ná na ceantair sin go léir ach cuid Pháidín den mheacan.

Molaim an Rialtas go bhfuil an tosnú sin déanta. Molaim a misneach mar is obair chrosta dheacair atá ann. Is léar dom an oiread sin deacracht ann go bhuil creidiúint agam sa ní adúirt an tAire—go mb'fhéidir nach néireodh amuigh is amach leis an rud seo gan cuid den ádh a bheith leis. Ní eile, is réabhlóid atá an tAire a dhéanamh leis an mBille seo. An ghluaiseacht a bhí ann maidir le tionscal in Éirinn, ní raibh baint ar bith aici leis na ceantair atá i gceist, ach bhí sruth na dtionscal ar fad go dtí na bailte móra agus na cathracha agus go dtí oirthear na hÉireann. Tá sé, leis an Bhille seo anois, ag ceapadh go gcuirfidh sé an sruth sin ag gluaiseacht i dtreo eile. Tá imní orm faoi, ach tá súil agam go néireoidh leis níos fearr ná mar atá dóchas aige. Is dóigh liom, taobh amuigh den pholaitíocht ná d'aon dream polaitíochta, gur cheart go mbeadh cabhair agus dea-mhéin chuile dhream in Éirinn leis seo, le cuid dá cheart a thabhairt ar ais don chuid den náisiún atá againn sna dúthaí atá i gceist. Is mithid dóibh é agus tá súil agam go bhfaighidh siad anois é. Níl ann ach tosnú. Níl ach £2,000,000 i gceist ach is leor é sin leis an tosnú a dhéanamh agus bun a chur le hobair a bheidh buan le cúnamh Dé.

Tá ní sa rud seo maidir le tionscal —nílim ag caint anseo ach ar ghné an tionscail den Bhille seo. Ní maith an rud go mbeadh an triúr stiúrthóirí, chomh scartha san le dlúthghreim, dlúth-bhainisteoireachta a dhéanamh ar an obair a déanfar le cabhair an airgid seo. Do réir mar a thuigim ón Aire 'sé an ní atá ina aigne go dteastaíonn uaidh cabhair a thabhairt chun na mí-bhuntáistí atá ag gabháil leis na dúthaí seo a chothromú le gnáth-bhuntáistí na coda eile d'Éirinn. B'fhéidir go bhfhuil mí-thuiscint nó uireasa tuisceana orm, ach bhaineas as an rud a dúirt sé nuair a bheidh scéal an tionscail socraithe leis na Coimisinéirí nó stiúrthóirí, na daoine a bheidh i mbun an Fhorais Tionscail, nach mbeidh puinn bainte acu ina dhiaidh sin le saothrú na hoibre, fostú daoine ná a shocrú cén saghas nó cineál daoine a fostófar ná aon ghnó eile, ach go bhfágfar é sin uile faoi na daoine sin gur leo an tionscal agus a fuair cabhair ón Stát.

B'fhearr liomsa go mbeadh baint níos dlúithe ag lucht stiúrtha an Fhorais seo le riar na hoibre, le stiúradh na hoibre agus le cuspóir na hoibre.

Ní eile adúirt an tAire, agus ar shlí is dóigh liom go bhfuil an fhírinne aige, gur cinnte, beagnach, gur sna sráid-bhailte agus sna bailte móra a thiocfaidh tairbhe na hoibre seo agus nach fén dtuaith. Is trua é sin ar shlí mar, de ghnáth, tá sna sráid-bhailte sin cheana féin dóthain tionscal, beagnach, chun freastal ar an lucht oibre atá íontu agus ní dóigh liomsa go dtiocfaidh puinn fostóireachta do dhaoine rén dtuaith de bharr tionscail bheaga do bheith sna sráid-bhailte.

Tá leis igceist go mbeadh na cumainn cheirde 'na máistirí ar fhostoír archt sna monarchain a cuirfear ar bun. Sin scéal nar mhiste roinnt machnaimh a dhéanamh air.

An tuiscint eile a bhain mé as caint an Aire agus as an mBille féin ná gur eirim eacnamaíoch amhain atá i gceist, súil le monarchain, tuiscint na páighe a thiocfaidh tráthnóna Dé hAoine sa phaicéad beag páipéir. Tá an tuiscint sin ag a lán daoine de bharr an méid cainte atá ar siúl, agus tá fhios agam go bhfuil sé go cinnte fén Ghaeltacht gur tionscail mhonarchan atá i gceist sa rud seo. Is dóigh liom gur cheart aire a thabhairt an mhí-thuiscint sin a bhaint as aigne na daoine agus a mhalairt a chur in iúl dóibh.

I leith an ruda sin, tionscail amháin —agus níl aon ní eile sa mBille ach tionscail—is dóigh liom gur easnamh air nach bhfuil trácht ar bith ar aon stiúradh, aon fhorbairt eile, maidir le saol na ndaoine, le sóisialacht agus cultúr agus caitheamh aimsire na ndaoine d'fheabhsú. Is dóigh liom gur beag toradh a thiocfaidh de mura mbíonn an ghluaisceacht seo ann chomh maith leis na tionscail, aigne na ndaoine á hoiliúint agus a hoscailt maidir le tábhacht nithe eile chomh maith leis an airgead deireadh seachtaine a gheobhaidís as obair. Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh gluaiseacht chultúra san am céanna ann agus ná dearmadfaí é sin. Ní ceart fir oibre agus mná do scaoileadh amach béal dorais mhonarchan agus gan aon ní le déanamh acu ach an sean-rud, dul leis an nGalldachas cheal soláthas cultúra, leis, a dhéanamh dóbh.

Táim ag caint fós ar bhaint an ruda sin leis na ceantair chúnga. Nílim ag gabháil i leith gur rud don Ghaeltacht per se é.

Ní eile ba mhaith liom féin a mholadh: stiúradh agus treoradh an ruda sin do bheith in áit éigin seachas Baile Átha Cliath, é bheith thiar sa Ghaeltacht, é bheith sna ceanntair chúnga, é bheith in áit éigin fén dtuaith, ionnas go bhféadfaí aghaidh an phobail dhiriú ar áiteacha eile seachas na hoifigí i mBaile Átha Cliath, go mbeadh cúram an ghnótha sin ag oifigh a bheadh i gcónaí i measc na ndaoine agus a chomhairleodh an tAire gan cigirí agus lucht faire a chur síos fén dtuaith féachaint an fíor an ráfla seo nó an bréag an ráfla eile. Is dóigh liom gur i nGaillimh nó in áit éigin fén dtuaith ba cheart lár-oifig stiúrtha na hoibre seo go léir a bheith.

Biodh go bhfuilim lán-tsásta gur maith agus gur fónta an iarracht í seo ag an Rialtas agus ag an Aire, tá díomá agus chuid mhór mí-shásaimh orm le nithe nach bhfuil ann. Cúig bliana is fiche ó shoin, do mhol Coimisiún na Gaeltachta rud mar sin a dhéanamh ar son na Gaeltachta. Ní tháinig san agus is cuma anois cé fé ndeara é. Tá rud ag teacht anois ach níl de bhaint aige leis an Ghaeltacht ach sa mhéid gur chuid den cheanntar atá i gceist an Ghaeltacht agus níl sa Ghaeltacht, mar chuid de, thar an deichiú cuid. B'fhearr liomsa go mbeadh rud éigin ceaptha go cinnte, speisialta, i gcóir na Gaeltachta agus do chuirfinn é sin i láthair an Aire, sin. Tá beagán paróistí sa Ghaeltacht agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil siad sin chomh tábhachtach sin i gcúrsaí náisiúntais, i gcúrsaí cultúra dhúchais, chomh tábhachtach sin mar rud nárbh fhéidir a ligean chun báis mholfainn go ndéanfadh an Rialtas Bille ar leith don Ghaeltacht féin, go mbeadh gnó tionscail, gnó cultúra agus gnó sóisialach na ndaoine i gceist ann agus go ndéanfaí gnó fé leith de sin. Níor bh'fhearr liom éinne a bheith i mbun na hoibre sin ná an tAíre atá ann fé láthair.

Caithfidh mé a rá gur díomá liom nach bhfuil aon tagairt sa Bhille seo don Ghaeltacht mar Ghaeltacht seachas dúthaigh atá deich n-uaire níos mó ná an Ghaeltacht, dúthaigh thréigthe, go ndearnadh faillí ann agus éagcóir air, le fada, i gcúrsaí tionscail. Tá mé i bhfábhar go ndéanfaí an méid sin do na dúthaí sin mar atá ach is rud ar leith an Ghaeltacht. Níl ann ach píosa beag de. Ní féidir dúinn ligint dó dul i laige níos mó. Ní shaorfaidh an Bille seo ón mbás í. Tá seans go mbrostódh sé an bás sna ceantair sin. Tá muinín agam as an Rialtas chun é sin do chosaint.

B'é dob fhearr liomsa, ná go dtiocfadh an smaoineamh agus an toil chintne don Rialtas a rá "Seo anois 12 paróiste in iarthar na hÉireann. Tá rud luachmhar, rud nach féidir a luach a thomhas, i seilbh an bheagán daoine atá sna háiteacha sin—agus is beagán daoine atá sna háiteacha sin—agus táimid, mar Rialtas náisiúnta, chun rud ar leith a dhéanamh don cheantar sin, cúram ar leith don phobal sin atá sna háiteacha sin, a choimeádfaidh ann iad, a chothóidh go réasúnta compordach iad agus a mhéadoidh a mórtas astu féin agus as an rud ar leith atá acu agus beidh siad mar chúram ar an náisiún chomh maith is atá aon chuid eile den tír."

Níl an soláthar san sa mBille, is trua liom. Is cúis díomá don Ghaeltacht féin é mar bhí coinne acu le rud ar leith a dhéanamh don Ghaeltacht. Chíonn siad anois nó chífidh siad, gur ionann iad agus an chuid is Gallda de na ceantair chúnga seo agus ní dóigh liom gur sásta a bheid ná gur buíoch a bheid.

Tá rud amháin a dheimhneoidh don Ghaeltacht go bhfuil an chuid eile d'Éirinn—ard agus iseal, saibhir agus bocht—i ndáirue mar gheall ar an nGaeilge—go bhfuil an Rialtas, an Eaglas agus na daoine a bhfuil údarás acu sa tír i ndáiríre mar gheall ar an nGhaeilge. Má théann an Rialtas siar chuca agus an saol ann d'athrú agus d'fheabhsú chomh maith sin go bhfanfaidh siad sa bhaile, abair an ceathrú cuid féin den uimhir daoine a théann as an tír gach bliain a fhanúint Bheadh siad sásta fanúint sa bhaile ag tuilleamh tuarastail nó páighe a bheadh maith go leor chun fear a choiméad ann, bean a phósadh agus clann a thógáil agus an cuid eile dá shaol do chaiteamh ann. Mura ndéanaimid é sin, nó cuid éigin fónta de, ní bheidh aon chreideamh ag muintir na Gaeltachta inár ndáiríreacht thuas anseo i mBaile Átha Cliath.

Sin é an chúis a bhfuil mé ag tathaint ar an Aire Bille nua a thabhairt isteach, socruithe nua a bheartú, agus a chur in iúl go bhfuil an Rialtas ag tógáil orthu féin cúram ar leith don Ghaeltacht atá ann, do shaol na Gaeltachta sin d'fheabhsú agus do mhuinín na ndaoine sin agus a mórtas astu féin do mhéadú. Tá mé á iarraidh sin toisc nach bhfuil sé sa Bhille seo agus beidh mé ag caint mar gheall air sin níos déanaí. Sin é an chúis go n-abraim an méid sin a tháinig im aigne ar léamh an mBhille seo dhom agus ar léamh na gcainteanna agus na rudaí atá ráite ina thaobh le coicís sa Dáil agus indiu anseo. Ba mhaith liom a thraoslú ar son na gceantair gcúng don Aire agus don Rialtas an misneach atá acu agus a leithéid de rud réabhlóideach a thabhairt isteach chun tabhairt fé malairt treo a thabhairt ar sruth an tionscail ach cad mar gheall ar an Ghaeltacht?

This Bill can be welcomed, if it is seen in its correct portions. The somewhat disarming speech of the Minister in introducing the Bill robbed us of the possibility of making certain criticisms which might have been made, if he had made a greater claim for the Bill than, in fact, he did. The fact is that the Bill forms a small part of a larger scheme for the improvement of certain parts of the country and that other similar schemes are under the control of different Departments. The Bill may do some good when it is linked up with the schemes of land reclamation, afforestation, fisheries and the development of the rest of Ireland from other points of view. As the Minister stated, this Bill is an experiment. It is a pilot Bill, and, as such, we welcome it. Every experiment is welcome, simply to see how far it succeeds.

I do not intend to refer to any of the details of the Bill, because that will be more relevant on the Committee Stage. Such things as the composition of the board, the precise type of industry to be helped, the precise area to which the Bill will apply, and so forth, are more appropriate at a later stage. There are, however, certain questions of general principle which have rather been taken for granted by everybody in the Dáil and in the Seanad, and to which I should like to refer now. I should like, also, to draw the Minister's attention to one or two of what might be described as the larger aspects of the Bill which have more or less been taken for granted in the debates in the other House and in this debate this evening.

We all agree that the object of the Bill is to provide employment in certain parts of the country and that the main object of the provision of that employment is to stop or reduce the tide of emigration. We assume, for a moment, that the reduction of emigration by almost any means in this country is a desirable object of national policy. It does not follow that the migration of people from any particular area of the country to any other area of the country is equally undesirable.

In that, I disagree with Senator Professor Stanford. I consider that a redistribution, internally, of the population may be a sign of progress and that one must draw a very clear distinction between emigration from the country as a whole and migration from particular areas of the country to other areas in the same country. All progress depends on movements of population. It would be quite impossible to think of economic progress if there had not been this constant movement. No given distribution of population is sacred or sacrosanct. Unless there is some justification of an overriding kind, artificial attempts to interfere with the free flow of population inside the nation seem to be retrograde measures. In this, I am drawing a clear distinction between emigration from the nation, which diminishes the size of the population, and a redistribution of the population inside the nation which, prima facie at any rate, involves a better distribution of the labour supply. The Minister himself has forestalled certain criticism which I might have made that certain parts of the country are more important than others. I quote from column 578 of the Official Report of the Dáil Debates of the 6th December in which the Minister is reported as follows:

"I consider it is good for the nation, as a whole, that we should do something to induce industrial activity in the West of the country as well as in the East. We are doing that not because we feel there is some special obligation to people residing in those counties over and above people residing in other counties. The Government does not accept an obligation to a citizen of Mayo, Galway or Donegal that it has not got to citizens anywhere else. We think it is in the interests of the citizens in the East, as it obviously is in the interest of the citizens in the West, that this present trend towards concentrating industrial activity in Dublin, Cork and the East coast should be arrested, if possible."

I suggest that it is not self-evident that it is in the interests of the nation as a whole or in the interests of the East, that this flow of people from one part of the nation to another should be arrested or reduced. Where, after all, would this principle end? There are depressed pockets in every county and in every part of the country.

If, every time the people make a natural move to get away from places where their labour is less wanted to places inside the nation where it is more wanted, the Government attempt to interfere with that labour movement, surely it would be a retrograde step and certainly it seems to require some justification. The expenditure of public money on arresting a movement of that kind inside the nation seems to me to require a certain justification.

An internal redistribution of population does not seem to me, in itself, to be a bad thing. One always has to consider in these matters what is the unit of welfare one is considering. I take it that, from our point of view, the unit of welfare is the country in which we live. I quite agree that, prima facie, emigration from this country to another country represents a loss to this country and a gain to the other country. However, where I find a loss to one part of this country resulting in a gain to another part of this country it seems to me that the minus and the plus may be equal or that the plus may be greater than the minus. We are entitled to assume that the plus is greater than the minus for the simple reason that the movement takes place. Therefore, some strong justification is necessary to justify an interference with the natural distribution of the population inside the country, apart from an emigration from the country which reduces the size of the population as a whole. It seems to me that the Bill proceeds on the implicit assumption that a movement of people away from certain parts of the country to certain other parts of the country is something which needs to be corrected by the expenditure of public money—that it is desirable to spend public money to create employment in certain areas, employment which would not otherwise be created. In other words, we will assume, as the basis of this legislation, that a movement of people from certain parts of the country to certain other parts of the country is something that should be corrected by Government policy.

I am prepared to assume that—for the purpose of argument. Assuming that, for the purpose of argument, I think I am entitled to ask this question: "How much of the movement will it stop; how much employment will be brought about in these areas to which the Bill applies?" Secondly: "What will be the cost of that employment?" These are two questions we are entitled to ask before we give approval to a Bill of this kind.

There is one point about giving employment which I do not think has been touched on in the debate and which seems to me to be very important indeed. This Bill is to last for a limited period of seven years. Therefore, I take it that whatever measures are taken under it will be taken in the course of the seven years. The Minister made it very clear in the debate in the Dáil that the purpose of the Bill is to give an initial injection of encouragement once and for all, that something will be done to start an industry up and after that it has to hold its own. We will come back to that afterwards.

The population in these particular areas is increasing all the time and will continue to increase all the time. After seven years, what is the Bill going to do? What I suggest is that unless this principle embodied in the Bill, of giving differential industries this assistance in those areas, is continuously applied it soon will cease to be effective, that the initial injection of employment will soon cease to be material, that when the Bill has run its seven years the population will still grow and there will be a need for another Bill. I put this dilemma up to the Minister and look to him for an answer.

If this Bill is temporary it only gives temporary relief to a chronic problem of a population growing rapidly in excess of the natural capacity of absorption. If, on the other hand, the Bill is not temporary but permanent, it is going to involve the taxpayer in a continuous burden, not only in the next seven years but in the following seven and in fact in every seven until the principle is dropped. It seems to me that this Bill by itself may give a certain amount of employment, may arrest emigration in the course of the seven years; but, once the seven years have run out, and unless possibly the other parts of the scheme which have been mentioned earlier come into operation, I do not see any reason why the tide of emigration from these areas should not begin to flow again. It seems to me that we are only dealing temporarily with that problem and unless there comes about a great change in the course of emigration in the West of Ireland it will be a permanent problem. Therefore, I suggest to the Minister that the first question to which we are entitled to an answer from him is: "What is the volume of employment which this Bill will give through time, not merely in the course of seven years but in the course of 50 years?" There is no use in our legislating for a few years in order to deal with a problem which from its very nature is going to prove a continuous problem. Therefore, I suggest that the first cost of this Bill is not merely the amount of money which will be voted to bring it into operation but the amount that will have to be voted for similar Bills in the future, if the whole principle is not to be abandoned in a few years' time.

I suggest that the second cost is not to be measured so much in money, but is one which everybody will agree is there. The Minister himself has stated quite definitely that the object of the Bill is to locate industries in positions of inferior advantage, that is, to put industries in those positions in the same competitive position as if they were in other parts of the country. Senator Hayes said that the Bill will not be effective unless they are put in a position of superiority. Therefore, if that is what the Minister aims at and if what I say in regard to what the Minister aims at is true, it is even more true if the further principle is adopted, that is, Senator Hayes's suggestion that the industry ought to be made even more competitively advantageous than industries in other parts of the country.

That, again, brings me to the point I had before—the unit of welfare, the difference between policy inside a nation and policy outside a nation. I am quite prepared to admit that the policy of industrial protection is one method of stemming emigration. I am perfectly prepared to admit that the policy of developing industries is a perfectly proper object of national policy. I suggest that a policy of that kind, when carried out, ought to be carried out at the minimum expense, so as to impose the minimum burden on the Irish population. In other words, I suggest that the distinction I draw between internal and external movements of population is equally valid in relation to the internal and external siting of industries. I am quite prepared to admit, as every country in the world does to-day, that artificial interference with the mere law of comparative advantage operating over the whole world is justified on national political grounds. I am not prepared to admit—unless there is some case made for it—that the law of comparative advantage in the siting of industries should be allowed to operate inside the national frontiers. There is one obvious reason, of course, in many countries to-day, for interfering with the free location of industry, that is, considerations of defence. I do not think they arise here, or that that justification has been put forward for this particular Bill. Therefore, I leave it out of the count.

It seems to me that, apart from considerations of defence—and another consideration which I will come to in a moment—it is very hard to justify any artificial siting of industries in industries in this country. From a national point of view, what we want to do is to get up the volume of employment and the volume of production. If industries are left to themselves, they will assume the best type of location. I do not necessarily say they will be located in Dublin. That has also been assumed in the course of the debate—wrongly, I think. The reason why industries avoid certain areas is because they are high cost areas. We have had abundant discussion regarding the way in which industries will avoid the West of Ireland, undeveloped parts of the country, because they are high cost areas. We have had that in the course of the debate, with references to transport costs and so on, and we are all agreed about that. But it may be that a city like Dublin, where rents are very high, is becoming a high cost area, too, and there are signs at the present moment of industries tending to move out of the centre of the city to some satellite fringe. Therefore, it may be that in the process of time there will be a natural industrial movement away from the centre as well as towards the centre. That has been known in many countries of the world. There have been centrifugal movements as well as centripetal movements. Therefore, it does not necessarily follow that industries will all tend to cluster around the same place or tend to be built up in the capital city. All one can say is that there will be a certain pattern of production and distribution based on the lowest cost of production, getting away from the high cost area to the low cost area and any interference with that natural location raises the cost of production. It is because of that that there has to be artificial interference. It is because costs are higher there than elsewhere that those industries have to be helped on their feet and kept on their feet also once they have been established.

Assuming for the moment, as we all agree, that the stoppage of emigration is desirable, that the provision of employment in this country is desirable, and assuming also that one way of doing that is by industrial protection, starting new industries, I suggest that from the national point of view, unless there is some special consideration of the kind which I shall come to in a moment, it is cheaper to bring the men to the industries than the industries to the men. It has been discovered in many other countries that it is cheaper to bring your people to where industries are than to move your industries to where the people are. I do not say that that is of universal application. I have already mentioned one exception and that is defence. I do not think that arises in this country.

There is another possible reason that was in my mind when I first read this Bill and that was that the artificial encouragement of industries in certain parts of the country was meant to keep intact, to keep in being, a certain type of life in the West of Ireland —the language and so on—that is in danger of perishing owing to emigration. I discovered, however, in the debate in the Dáil and also this evening that that is not the primary intention of the Bill. In fact, the Minister went so far as to say in the Dáil that if these industries were introduced in part of the Gaeltacht they would have an Anglicising effect and would do more harm than good. Therefore, that particular justification which might have been pleaded on cultural grounds has not been pleaded and does not seem to arise.

The final justification is one which has been employed in Great Britain between the wars, and that is the existence of depressed areas; that where you have a vast accumulation of capital investment in the past, it may be cheaper then to bring people to these investments, to keep up those areas artificially rather than let them decay and let the people go away. I suggest that the problem here is different. We are not dealing with anything like the English depressed areas or with areas where there has been a great investment and the market has moved away.

The capital has not yet been invested. I suggest, however, that if this Bill is unwisely administered, administered with too great haste without due regard for all the relevant considerations, it may have the effect in the future of producing problems, in a small way, of course, analogous to the British problem—in other words, that industries may be built up under this Bill which, in the course of time, may not be able to support themselves. My suggestion is that once the investment is made under this Bill those industries cannot be just allowed, so to speak, to go down the drain. Capital will be invested, Government funds will be voted, employment will be given, and expectations will be raised.

These industries, it has been stated, are not to be given any artificial protection against Irish competition once they have started. Suppose they all begin to fail; suppose they are not able to hold their own in the West, then, again, we have a dilemma. Will they be allowed to fall? Will the whole scheme be allowed to come to nought? Will the factories be left idle? Will the people go away? Or, in the alternative, will good money be thrown after bad? That is one of the things we should try to answer. In other words, I suggest that the burden on the community proposed in this Bill may be a great deal longer and a great deal larger than appears on the face of it.

I already suggested that money will have to be continuously injected into these areas if emigration is not to be resumed on at least the present scale. I suggest that the investment made under the Bill may need to be continuously supported. In other words, I think that we ought to face the fact, although this Bill envisages an injection of Government assistance once and for all, that, in fact, like other drugs, further doses may be necessary. It will be impossible in practice to say: "The Bill was passed only for seven years; the problem has not yet been solved, but we are bound by our own resolve not to go longer than seven years," and the point will come when a further Bill will be necessary.

This may be the beginning of a long continuous process of mounting expenditure, and that is one of the things we ought to be quite clear about before we give it our unmixed approval. As I said in the beginning, we are not really asked to give our unmixed approval. It has been introduced as an experiment. It has been introduced almost apologetically. I do not think the Minister is so unsophisticated as not to realise the limitations of the Bill. As I said, the Bill forms part of a much larger programme of building up certain parts of the country. It may be, if the other parts of that programme succeed, if they are carried on successfully, that the burdens of this part of the programme which I have suggested may not be as great as they might be. In other words, if the resources of these counties are built up on more natural lines, if some of the other lines I have dealt with succeed, it may be that the necessity for building up industries of this kind will become less, or it may be that, owing to greater markets in the locality and so on, the industries built up will require less support. Therefore, I welcome the Bill for what it is, an experiment of a limited kind; but I certainly hope that, in the course of the experiment, too much money will not be poured down the drain.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

Except for a few prophets of evil and a few more cautious voices like that of Senator O'Brien's, this Bill has been well received generally. In my opinion, it will have the effect of raising the hopes of the people in the congested areas and should infuse a new spirit and bring about a drive for the development of industry in those districts. On the whole, a very keen interest is being taken in this proposal by the people in the congested districts. Under this measure they see the possibility of the development of industrial undertakings which will have the effect of bringing into employment capital that has hitherto not been productively employed and also the provision of work for our people who hitherto had to emigrate.

I do not think anybody would be so optimistic as to believe that this Bill will put a stop to emigration. Anybody who knows the West knows the magnitude of the problem there. But it will have the effect of checking emigration and I hope that will be its principal result.

There has been a good deal of loose thinking and loose talk on the part of some people who take the view that the Government is competent to establish industries here, there and everywhere. One would almost think that the Government had factories in its overcoat pocket which it could lay down anywhere it wished. One hears people demanding that factories should be established without giving any indication of the kind of factory or the type of manufacture. That loose talk has the effect of eventually leading people to believe that Governments can create factories and that Governments are consciously withholding factories from certain areas. That could easily bring about a drift towards the socialist state. It is very difficult to make people realise that private enterprise should be the underlying principle in the establishment of industry. I think it is desirable that this loose thinking and loose talk should not be fostered.

It has been made quite clear by the Minister that industrial development will take place on the basis of private enterprise. There are difficulties in the congested districts. Unless we face up to those difficulties we will not make this Bill a success. One of the principal difficulties is lack of capital in the areas concerned. But that is not the greatest difficulty because even in those areas where Senator Professor O'Brien recommends caution there is a good deal of idle capital. It is natural for younger people to imagine that capital is always in the hands of those who have lost ambition with the passage of the years, who are self-satisfied and who have no longer any desire to see progress. They prefer to leave things as they are. There is the fact, however, that in many of the congested districts there is plenty of capital. It may be on deposit in banks at a very low rate of interest. It may be invested in sterling assets about which we have heard so much. One way or another, it is not as well employed as it might be in actively financing a productive industry in undeveloped areas.

I appreciate that the people in the West are somewhat over conservative in their approach to capital, and there is a cetrain difficulty in prevailing upon them to invest in industrial undertakings. I hope the new spirit created by the introduction of this measure with the promise of organised local industrial development will have the effect of overcoming that difficulty and that the people in the congested districts who have capital at their disposal will be prevailed upon to invest it in these new undertakings.

I think it is more desirable that local capital should be utilised in that way rather than have injections of capital from other areas. It may be essential to have capital from outside areas as well and, indeed, it is desirable that people in outside areas should take an interest in these enterprises. There may be cases where local capital will be found in plenty. There may be other cases where local capital will be insufficient. In such cases the enterprise will have the assistance of the board. Any industry that is under-capitalised is in serious danger.

I wonder would the Minister think it desirable to give a direction to the Industrial Credit Corporation—it may not be necessary to do so—in connection with the advancing of loans to industrial undertakings in the congested districts. I do not suggest that body has not done good work. I do not suggest it is not doing good work at the present moment, or that it will not do good work in the future. That organisation has been a good while in existence.

I am sure it has lost some of the ardour it had when it was first established. I hope it has not, but, generally speaking, when people, or organisations, grow older they become more conservative, whatever about becoming more wise. There is need, I think, for the Minister to give a direction that there is not to be an outlook of over-cautious finance on the part of the Industrial Credit Corporation in its dealings with industrial projects in the congested areas. It may be that there will be no need for the Minister to do that but if there is I am sure he will do it.

In addition to the difficulty with regard to capital in the congested districts, there will be other difficulties. One is that of technical advice in areas which have not a tradition of industrial enterprise. That, in my opinion, will probably be a greater difficulty than the one in regard to capital. It is only with the co-operation of industries already established that the difficulty of technical advice, such as the training of operatives in industries suitable to the West, can be got over. I admit that it can be a very serious difficulty in the case of many industries which we would like to see developed in the congested districts. I still take the view that, in spite of all the difficulties which I have enumerated, industrial enterprise can be as successful in the congested districts as it can be anywhere else, and that when the people there are trained their standard of production will be as high as that of people in similar employment elsewhere.

There is, too, the question of markets and of business organisation. I am satisfied that, when projects which seem to have a reasonable prospect of survival and success are set on foot in the congested districts with the help of the board, the difficulties in regard to markets and business management, as well as the other difficulties I have mentioned, can be got over with co-operation from industries already established outside the congested districts. If there is not an overcautious approach on the part of the Industrial Credit Corporation, and if local capital is employed, then I would hope that a lot of development will take place in these areas when the Bill becomes an Act.

As regards the general line of approach to the type of industry which should be established in the congested districts, I think a start should be made with industries which would be able to get their raw material in the area. I think that if a proper survey were made, there are many industries that could be usefully established in these districts. There is room for a lot of development and expansion in the case of the commercial clays that are to be found in many places in the West. I feel there is a market for the products of such an industry. I suggest that the native fuels, turf and coal, in those areas could be exploited to a greater degree than they are at present. If we look at the import lists we find that a lot of glass is imported. You have the sand in those congested districts for its manufacture. It surely would be more desirable to have the manufacturing processes carried out in the congested districts, where that raw material is available, than to have it taken away to be manufactured elsewhere. Unless something is done to employ the capital of the local people in these areas in manufacturing processes of that kind, and in the exploitation of the raw materials available in the congested districts, the people will not remain in them. The population will become so sparse there that it would be quite uneconomic, from any point of view, business, agricultural or industrial, to do anything at all there. I say that with all due respect to the wishes of other people who have suggested a go-slow policy in a matter of this kind.

I hope I did not misunderstand the Minister in the remarks he made when opening the debate. I seemed to gather from what he said that he envisages a large number of industrial concerns taking an interest in industrial production in the West. I hope that is so, and that it will be so. I think, however, that it is only by the employment of local capital, together with the capital of the people whom the Minister indicated as being interested, that this measure can be a success.

I think we are all agreed that there is an element of a mission in the plan underlying this Bill. A mission, whether it be spiritual or industrial, can only be regarded as being successful when the people who go on it leave their mark behind them, whether they be teachers or ministers. I am thinking, in saying that, of a spiritual mission. Therefore, an industrial mission could only be successful when it had left behind people from the areas concerned skilled in production work, skilled in management and in the marketing of the products. As Senator O'Brien says if the Minister or the board had always to be standing by to give an intravenous injection with a hypodermic syringe, it would be an undesirable state of affairs and I certainly hope that such a situation will not arise. Without meaning any offence, I was inclined to say to Senator O'Brien during his speech that the days of chivalry had gone, as was said once by a great parliamentarian, and that the days of economists had come, because he certainly advocated a rather over-cautious approach by the Minister, an over-cautious approach which would not be shared by many people in this House, whether or not they come from the congested areas. If Senator O'Brien's approach were brought to its logical conclusion, it might mean that the Government would have no further responsibility in regard to changes of population within the State.

If there were further serious reductions in the population of certain areas in the West, those remaining there would be quite unable to work their holdings economically from any point of view. If his arguments were brought to their logical conclusion, the real solution would be, as suggested by him, the drawing of a red line from a point somewhere in West Cork and West Kerry through Galway, Mayo, Cavan and Donegal, and the laying down the rule that nobody should cross that line. I wonder if it is nationally desirable that you are not to have a depressed area, as some people call it, or a congested area, as more people call it, but that the area should be abandoned. I take the view that this would be very wrong from the point of view of the Government, from the national point of view, and from the point of view of social responsibility of the majority of the people in this country to a particular area. I argue that the only reason there has not been development in the West, to any great extent, is because of the lack of the know-how of the training, and of the amenities of areas like Dublin. The areas in the West were not developed because of the lack of this know-how and because of difficulties like transport. Due to the lack of such facilities in congested districts people who had the know-how of industrial management and of industrial enterprises were not attracted to them. I am quite satisfied, if these areas are improved in the way envisaged under the scope of this Bill, that many useful products will be developed in them. The volume of employment will increase and this will, to some extent, stop the drain on the population. We are all agreed that, as a result of this Bill, more people will go into productive employment, that greater purchasing power will be created and that the general volume of business in the areas concerned will increase. We feel that the decline which has been going on for so long will be arrested.

I would like to say, in conclusion, that I wish the Bill success, as does every other public representative coming from the West of Ireland. I hope it will be taken up seriously by industrialists in this country and by people in the congested districts with capital. I trust that local organisations will ensure that capital can be found locally to finance the undertakings and that industrialists will be helped by the provision of further capital, technical advice and business management. I hope that this Bill will have such a measure of success that, before the specified period has expired, the Minister will have to come back here with an amending Bill to provide more finance for the board. I agree that the Minister has acted rather conservatively by putting a ceiling on the amount of money to be made available under the Bill. As I said, I hope the board will justify itself to such an extent that industrial undertakings will be so successful that this House will need to increase the volume of money made available to the board.

At the outset, I would like to say that I welcome this Bill. I also appreciate the manner in which the Bill has been explained by the Minister. Perhaps I may have different ideas from other public men, but I am satisfied, as far as the Gaeltacht is concerned, that the amount of good which will be done as a result of this measure will be nought. The Minister said that this Bill was designed to benefit people living west of the Shannon. I come from a place situated 100 miles west of the Shannon, and I must say that this Bill, or a Bill in similar terms, is more than one-quarter of a century late. If such steps were taken after a native Government had been just established, there might have been some hope for the people west of the Shannon. I want to warn the Minister, the Government and everybody concerned that the position west of the Shannon in the Gaeltacht has changed more during my lifetime than any ordinary human being would expect it could have changed in a period of 300 years. In my native place, the people had a way of life of which anybody might feel proud; they were poor and humble but they lived very near to God. In my townland, at the establishment of a native Government, the population numbered 65. To-day, 60 have gone. In the next townland the population numbered 70, and now about ten people remain.

The same thing occurred in every other district. In the national school there were 120 on the roll book, now there are something like 18, and two national schools were closed in the immediate vicinity. The people reared in those districts had a national outlook and they felt that they were making sacrifices in preserving the language and traditions for which their ancestors suffered. They felt that when a native Government would be in power they would be seen to and that their position would be changed. The wording of the Bill is "For the Undeveloped Areas." I say the correct wording should be "For the Neglected Areas." It is a sad thing that during the period since we have enjoyed native Government—I do not want to bring in a note of politics in any shape or form—and for ten years during which the Government that is in power now was in power—from 1936 to 1946—the population of my native constituency, South Mayo, decreased so that the number of Deputies had to be reduced. The constituency had five Deputies and the number was reduced to four because of the decrease of the voters alone in that area. That was the position and it should have been noted. Decay set in to such an extent that many of the people emigrated. You will not now get them to go back. You cannot start industries in the West to-day unless you are prepared to give first class trade union conditions to employees in factories.

While I am proud to think that anything could be done for the West, I wonder would it be wise to set up an industry, say, in Tourmakeady. I take it as being one of the most Gaelic spots in Mayo. If an industry were set up there in the morning and you imported raw material and employed 300 hands, which would be good employment, I wonder, after a few years, how many people you would get to remain on the nearby holdings. There are something around 900 families residing in the district, and I hold that every one of their holdings was a little industry in itself—at least it was in my time. Unfortunately many of them are now in industries because they sold out and many of them did not get married. You asked a man why he did not marry and he said: "I saw so much of the railway station and so much emigration that I would rather that children were never born than that they should be reared for the emigrant ship."

I am proud that a sum of £2,000,000 is to be expended in the West, but I hope it is not going to be spent in the wrong way. If that £2,000,000 were to be expended through three other Ministeries I believe there would be a hope for the West. First and foremost, through the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Land and the Department of Local Government, you would be able to establish not one big industry, but a whole lot of small ones. That would be fairly successful if you could give encouragement to the people to go in for the way of life that they had in days gone by, the rearing of pigs, fowl, afforestation, cutting turf, home industries. In that way you would have a hope of keeping them there.

I would ask the Minister to consider this. If an industry were established in Tourmakeady in the morning and one member of the family got employment there, at say, £5 a week, and there were five or six more children in the family, do you think that the other five or six would remain working on the little holding receiving no pay at all at the week-ends? In other words, you would be encouraging the other members of the family to seek employment in the local factory, where they would each get £5 per week.

I would like to see industry encouraged in the West but the only industries that I feel would have any hope of success are the industries where you have the raw materials locally. I believe that, in regard to turf, the last sod of turf to be procured in the West should be procured. I also think that all mineral resources in Connacht should be exploited. There is also a good prospect for wool. I do not see any reason why there should not be an industry set up so that wool which is procured locally could be manufactured locally. If you import raw materials to the West of Ireland and build up what I term artificial protection for the time being for an industry, I am afraid that its success in the future will be shortlived. As I say, the only hope for the West of Ireland is the development of its natural resources.

It is sad to think that despite the fact that we have a native Government for over 30 years, in the West to-day—being a fast day—I do not think you would get fish in five or six of the towns in Mayo or Galway. There is certainly something wrong about that. It is something which provides an opportunity to help, namely, to provide proper fishing facilities for the people, fishing gear, that is, the boats and nets. That was done to a certain extent in my time and there is a possibility for further assistance there.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is forestalling the board in all this.

To tell you the truth, I have no faith in the board at all. As a matter of fact, as you mention the board I would like to know how this board is going to operate at all. Is this a board that has power if they so desire—I do not suggest for a moment that the board is subject to influence, but, mind you, we must remember that the majority of Irish people are prone to influence——

A Senator

No, they are not.

I am afraid it is true. Does it mean that this board will go into one particular town and give this injection that Senator O'Brien mentioned to one industry and maybe kill another? I would like to know how this board will decide between the various industries, particularly in regard to existing industries. I would have more faith if these powers were left in the hands of the Government and would be the Minister's responsibility, and that the activities of the board would be subject to parliamentary discussion. It has not been clearly explained to me yet and I would like the Minister to clear up the point.

There is just one point on which I differed with the Minister. He said that the board would not need industrial experts, they would be only dealing with money. How can they invest money in industry if they have not industrial experts? I think there is need for experts on industry as well as experts dealing with finance. As a matter of fact, that is the only statement the Minister made on which I could point to any difference. I am not quite clear on that point.

Senator O'Reilly blamed people for suggesting that industries might be started in different parts of the country and I waited quite a long time while he was speaking for some suggestion from him that a particular industry might be started in Leitrim. I was disappointed that he did not mention some industry that might be started there, as I feel that Leitrim is a county in which the population has been decreasing steadily. If assistance were given to the people there to encourage the development of agriculture and afforestation, I feel that it would have a very good effect as there is room in that county for a population double its present size.

I should also like to suggest that if we are to induce people to remain in the Gaeltacht we must provide them with occupations for their leisure time as well as for their working hours. For that reason I believe every encouragement should be given to the erection of local halls. Of course, in my time we were very old-fashioned and we were content with visiting some neighbour's house for a game of cards. The women of the district assembled in another house, probably next door, and devoted their leisure to carding, spinning and weaving; in other words, producing clothing. Times have changed very much since and the young people to-day are of a different type. In my young days the people took a pride in the national language and, despite the fact that they had to work very hard on their little holdings, they were quite willing to pay a couple of pence a week towards the salary of a teacher who visited the various districts to teach them the language. Of course, in those days the language was more or less proscribed, and if a man put his name in Irish on his cart he was prosecuted. Nowadays, however, when facilities of every kind are provided for the teaching of the language, and when instruction is given free, the young people are forgetting all about it.

I am sorry to say that the young people nowadays have not the spirit that their fathers had, nor are they prepared to make the same sacrifices that their fathers made for the national language. Their fathers, as I say, were prepared to contribute towards the payment of the teachers of the language but nowadays, although the teachers are paid by the Government, the young people will not take advantage of the facilities provided for them. In my young days if we had a ceilidhe once a week we were quite satisfied, and we had to be into our homes at 10.30 p.m. to say the family Rosary. Nowadays young people, instead of returning home at a reasonable hour to say the family Rosary, hire a taxi to go off to a "hop" perhaps 15 or 16 miles away.

We must try to revive the traditions of the past and induce the people to live as near as possible to the land. For that purpose it will be necessary to provide Government assistance in the directions in which I have indicated to improve the lot of the people of the land. Where congestion exists, an effort should be made to relieve it by transferring a number of tenants to the good land of Meath, to which I hold they have a rightful claim, and provide them there with economic holdings. If this £2,000,000 were expended in that direction I feel that there would be some hope for the West. While I welcome the Bill, if it is to be confined merely to the provision of industries of a manufacturing kind, I have no hope of its success. I should like anybody to indicate to me, even privately, any county where it will be a success.

Another factor which is responsible for the present conditions of affairs in the country generally is that the people have lost that sense of pride which they formerly possessed. I am sure there are Senators who are listening to me who will laugh when I tell them that, when the old age pensions were first introduced by the British Government, there were in the parish in which I was reared about 90 persons who were eligible for the pension but only five of them accepted it. Their pride was such that, as they expressed it, no one before them got nothing for nothing and they were not going to take a pension from the British Government. The same thing applied to other concessions that were offered to them. The people had a certain sense of pride and it should be our aim to restore that sense of pride and the spirit which prevailed when the people were prepared to suffer for the language and to make sacrifices in order to retain their personal dignity. Nowadays we find some people looking for the dole even when they are not entitled to it. That applies to every part of Ireland and is not confined to the West alone.

I am ready to help this Government, or any future Government, which is prepared to introduce measures calculated to benefit the people of the West of Ireland. Senator O'Reilly referred to the depopulation of the West. If we can stop that, I feel that it will be almost a miracle, and I have every sympathy for the Minister in his efforts to do it. I feel that he will have the co-operation of every right-minded person, no matter what part of the country he comes from. Let us not forget that in ages past our people were sent "to hell or to Connacht". The people of the Gaeltacht survived that ordeal and it is hard to have to say that it took a native Government to drive them out of Connacht. More people have left the province of Connacht since we got control of our own affairs than left it during any similar period under the British régime. That is the reason I say that it will be a difficult job to induce people to remain in Connacht now, as so many members of different families migrated and found employment in industrial work in England and elsewhere. When these members come home or write home, they exercise a great influence on the young people who are still at home. They tell the young people at home that they are foolish to remain working on the land and that they could get much better wages in industrial employment on the other side. When I was a young man emigrants went to America mainly, and it is a remarkable fact that when boys or girls returned from the United States on a holiday or maybe to buy holdings and remain permanently at home, they were better Irishmen and Irishwomen than before they emigrated, and they exercised a great influence on the young people in the locality. I hope, despite what I have said, that the Bill will be a success, and I wish the Minister and everybody connected with it the best of luck. I hope also that my doubts as to the success of the Bill in these western areas will be proved wrong.

I support this Bill. I support it more in hope than in confidence that it will do any real good. I believe there is a possibility that it will do some good. I do not share the optimism of Senator P. O'Reilly, nor do I take the same pessimistic view that has been taken by the last speaker. However, I think we should all support the Bill.

If the board is in any way successful in its functions it will have done very much needed good work and the results of the good work will not be confined solely to the West. The results will, I am sure, extend farther than the particular places for which the Bill is designed. I have every confidence in the board which the Minister proposes to set up. I think such a board will work properly. I do not think it will be as amenable to influence as one Senator has suggested. I think that the Minister should not have three members of the board civil servants. I think that one member of the board at least should be a person of experience in business. Undoubtedly, civil servants would give great help in administrative matters but members of the service might lack the necessary experience that would be required for the administration of the board's work.

I would ask the Minister to consider very carefully before he would decide to appoint three civil servants to the board. As to the size of the board, I think that three would be quite sufficient. Any more than that would not be effective and would not be as successful as a board of three. I think that the Minister is right in providing that the term of office would not be more than a particular number of years. He reserves the right, for good reason I am sure, to alter the composition of the board or to change a member. He should not, as one Senator suggested, have a board that would last for the duration of the Bill, that is until December, 1958. I think that such a board as I have described would be able to discharge the functions which it is intended to give it quite satisfactorily.

We must remember that the Minister will have no right whatever to dictate policy to the board. The board, as the Minister told us, will be completely independent. The Minister will give the board the views of the Government generally in a helpful way rather than in a dictatorial way. He will not have any other function.

It was suggested to the Minister this evening that he should go to the Industrial Credit Corporation to tell them what to do with the funds at their disposal. I am sure that the Minister would not think of doing that. I do not think the Minister has any power to say that and I think it would be very wrong that we should tell the Minister to direct the financial work of that institution. I do not think he should in any way direct or attempt to direct its operation.

If the Minister has to take any part in the influencing of credit for industries that the board might encourage, I think he should talk to the banks or encourage the banks which have, within recent times, very seriously restricted credit facilities. Unless promoters of enterprises in these areas get credit from the banks, they will not have available the moneys to finance undertakings. I quite agree that the promoters of these enterprises will look to the people of this country for capital to be invested in these industries, but if the Minister is to listen to advice as to credit I think the advice he should take would be to mention to the banks that they should help in a matter of this kind.

I should like to mention one or two matters in regard to the acquisition of land by the board. The board will have power to acquire land in these areas. The power comes from this Bill and from the Acquisition of Land (Compensation) Act, 1919. Under that Act, the board will follow arbitration, if necessary, and pay compensation for acquired land. Very frequently it has been found that the operation of that Act is unfair—at least people believe it is unfair. What happens under the Act is that an arbitrator is appointed or selected from a panel of arbitrators which has already been chosen by a statutory committee. The board or the person from whom the land would be acquired would nominate an arbitrator. The arbitrator holds a sitting and hears certain evidence. He may restrict the nature of the evidence that he will hear. He gives his decision on that evidence. From that evidence there is not any appeal, except on a point of law where an appeal lies to the High Court.

Frequently local authorities who have acquired land and persons from whom land has been acquired complain very bitterly that there is not any right of appeal from the decision of an arbitrator, such as an arbitrator who will operate under this Bill. I hope that that state of affairs will be corrected and corrected now. It should be provided that, where an arbitrator gives his decision, an appeal should lie from that decision either to the High Court or to the Circuit Court. I would prefer the High Court because the procedure by way of appeal in the High Court would not be any more costly than the procedure by way of appeal to the Circuit Court. The board may be dissatisfied with the price which the arbitrator will have decided should be paid. The person from whom the land will be taken may be dissatisfied. I am not speaking now as holding a brief for either of the parties. I am speaking with a view to putting matters right for both.

To-day the position is that local authorities and persons whose property is being acquired complain that the arbitrator in one case has allowed too much and in the other case allowed too little. I have known of a number of cases where arbitrators have allowed too much and in some cases too little. I would ask the Minister to consider allowing a person to appeal against the decision of the arbitrator.

In the Second Schedule—Section 1, sub-section (3) (a)—it is provided that the board shall not enter on or take possession of any land without giving to the occupier at least one month's or, in the case of an occupied dwelling-house, three months' previous notice in writing of their intention so to do. I suggest that it might be provided that in the first instance at least three months' notice would be given, and in the second instance that six months' notice would be given.

In Section 4 of the Second Schedule it is provided that all claims for the price of or compensation in respect of any land, easement, right or other property (whether corporeal or incorporeal) acquired or interfered with under this Act shall be made within one year after the land, easement, right or property is first entered on, exercised or interfered with under this Act. I suggest that that period of one year be extended——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

These are more or less Committee points.

I have made these suggestions with a view to making it easier for the Minister on the Committee Stage. However, I shall not press the matter if the Chair does not wish it.

As I have said, I welcome this Bill and support it and hope that it will be a great success. I believe that when a proper board is established it will be able to do some work. It may not be able to do everything that, perhaps, we should like it to do but if it does something towards relieving conditions in the West it will do really good work for the country generally.

I am sorry the Second Reading of this Bill came on now instead of after the vacation because I had hoped to pay a brief visit to a part of the Gaeltacht that I have not seen for many years and I should have liked to have been able to renew my contact with the local colour behind the problem we are now considering before making any final contribution to this debate. At all events, I hope that the Committee Stage will be postponed until January when, perhaps, I may be able to make some concrete suggestions by way of contribution to this Bill.

Although, like Senator Professor O'Brien, I am an exponent of the dismal science, I do not take quite so pessimistic a view of the policy of which this Bill is a modest expression as he appears to. In fact, my principal quarrel with the Bill is that although it is a valuable step in the right direction it does not go half far enough. It is lacking in comprehensiveness and in the desirable quality of what you might call social imagination.

Senator Professor O'Brien spoke of the redistribution of population within the nation as a necessary and even desirable phenomenon looked at even from an economic point of view. However, I think we are here concerned with the fact that migration and emigration both take place to a considerable extent from the congested areas. However, there is a kind of internal friction that makes it easier for a Connaughtman to contemplate emigrating to the United States than to contemplate changing his residence to Dublin. I think that the particular influx that has rather congested this metropolitan region comes, in the main, from the Midland areas and, in fact, is denuding the country of population that could if they wanted to, find abundant work in the employment available in the richer agricultural areas. The trouble seems to be that the inhabitants of the congested areas only migrate for seasonal work to England or emigrate from the country altogether and the problem is to do something to remedy that situation in the national interest. Various things have been done with a view to meeting that problem. We have had the Gaelic colonies in County Meath and, to a certain extent, they may have been economic successes though at considerable cost to the national Exchequer. From the cultural and social point of view they have not been an unqualified success.

It seems to be the case with Westerners that when they settle permanently in some other part of their own country they lose some of their most attractive and desirable social qualities and do not always become the best kind of citizen. For example, there are Connaughtmen working in the camps of Bord na Móna in Kildare. If you read the local papers you occasionally come across rather objectionable things that are done and that bring these people to the attention of the local district justice. If you know the local police you hear stories about them which I would rather were not true. That makes me say that since a Connaughtman in his own environment is one of the most lovable and delightful people, it is desirable, in the national interest, that he should be given such economic conditions as would enable him to flourish in his home environment because it is there that he develops his best and most attractive qualities. For that reason I welcome the policy of which this Bill is an expression. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 20th December, 1951.
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