Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Dec 1951

Vol. 40 No. 7

Undeveloped Areas Bill, 1951—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be read a Second Time."

When I was speaking last night in competition with the clock I could not have gone on for more than ten minutes if the clock had not been there at all, but since then I have had time to look up a few points and I may possibly delay the Seanad slightly longer in consequence. The only moral of this is it would pay to ignore the clock when I am speaking at the end of a sitting.

I may have left the impression that I had a poor view of Connaught men when they leave their home country but I would like to remove that impression. When they are uprooted and are living in an unnatural environment far from home ties and home influences certain of them fall into temptations which, indeed, are common to human nature in general, and do not behave as good citizens. Yet when they go out from their own country in organised working parties, as they do regularly every year, to England and Scotland there are no better workers and no better behaved citizens. What keeps them right is, I think, partly their innate qualities and partly the fact that they look forward to returning to their native heaths, boglands and farms and that they seem to have a genuine love of their own rugged and somewhat infertile countryside. That, therefore, makes it all the more desirable from the national point of view that somehow conditions should be created which would enable them to live a comfortable life all the year round in their own rugged surroundings.

May I, in passing, ask since these Gaeltacht people are disposed to migrate for seasonal labour to other parts of these islands, if there is any reason why such migration should not be organised with reference to Eastern Ireland and its agricultural areas? As I pointed out on a former occasion, there is a limiting factor to agricultural production in the East Midland counties arising from the fact that there is a real shortage of labour, especially of seasonal labour. That limits the efforts of the Irish sugar company to increase the area under beet. Many farmers have told me and I have read in agricultural papers, that they dare not increase their area under beet beyond the amount that they can handle with their own permanent staff or their own family labour. If it could be arranged that organised bodies of workers from the Gaeltacht should regularly come to and be established in the East Midland counties, perhaps temporarily occupying some of the semi-derelict big houses which you find in any agricultural region even in the eastern parts of the country, and be provided with suitable transport and be distributed throughout the farms of the East Midlands throughout the whole season from the beginning, the planting of the beet, the haymaking, the corn harvesting season, right down to the beet lifting period which is also a period of heavy seasonal work, it might solve two problems at one stroke.

In that connection may I suggest that it is very desirable that there should be co-ordination between the various Government Departments that are concerned with solving our various economic problems, and that this new board should act, not in a piecemeal way as the fifth, sixth or seventh wheel of an already elaborate governmental coach, but as an effective means of co-ordination between existing Government Departments, and should look for the missing components that may make all the difference between a successful solution and a partial one? You have the problem of migration and emigration from the Gaeltacht and you have the problem of a shortage of agricultural labour in the East Midland counties—two problems; but two problems looked at synoptically often add up to one solution. That point of view should be ever present before the eyes of this new board.

May I digress for a moment to differ from my friend and colleague, Senator Professor O'Brien, on his suggestion that there may be a danger of continuous subsidy even after the seven-year period for the new industries which it is proposed to establish? The object of the Bill is to overcome what we may call an initial friction. If that initial friction has been successfully overcome and new industries have been successfully established, then I think, if those industries have taken root, that they will in themselves facilitate further industrial development and will tend to attract new and subsidiary industries to the same neighbourhood. The danger of a continuous subsidy being necessary is one which ought not to exist either in theory or in practice.

There are, however, I think, larger aspects of this whole problem. We have been traditionally inclined to regard the Gaeltacht as an economic drain and the remedies which we propose for solving the problems of the Gaeltacht traditionally take the form of imposing a drain on the rest of the country. If there were no other way in which the conditions of life in these difficult areas could be remedied without some sacrifice on the part of the rest of the country, I would say that nevertheless that sacrifice ought to be made because the debt of the whole country to the people of the Gaeltacht is very considerable. But I think the right and more ambitious objective is that we should, if at all possible, aim to turn the Gaeltacht from being an economic drain into being an economic and cultural asset, a positive asset from the point of view of the country as a whole.

The question of the future of the Gaelic language in Ireland is to my mind primarily an economic question, and unless the economic situation of the Gaeltacht can be put on a permanently satisfactory basis there is no future for Gaelic and very little future for the Gaelic ideal in Ireland.

I know, of course, that the official policy is that all Ireland should eventually become a Gaelic-speaking nation and that policy certainly arouses positive enmity and much hostile criticism, but there is an alternative ideal which could be a unifying influence, unifying people of all religions and living in every part of our 32 counties, and that is what I may call the Quebec ideal with reference to the Gaeltacht. You probably know that Quebec in Canada is a French-speaking area but you may not realise that a very substantial proportion of the people of Canada are French-speaking and there is no danger whatever of the French-speaking region in Canada disappearing through depopulation, and the reason of that is that the French-speaking population of Canada have a tolerable life and a valuable economic asset in the natural resources which belong in their Province.

If anything we do could develop the economic resources of the Gaeltacht it would guarantee the permanence of the Gaelic language and of Gaelic ideals in that particular part of the country. What is still more important, I think that we could get national unity about a policy which aimed at giving an economic basis to the Gaeltacht and which would preserve the Gaelic language and Gaelic culture in that part of the country. That is what I have in mind especially with reference to the amendments which I have handed in.

The fact is that, although we all belong in the Galltacht and our Northern Ireland friends are extremely emphatic about their determination so to belong, nevertheless, people from both areas regularly go to the Gaeltacht for holidays, and part of the charm of those holidays is the people whom they meet, who live in that area, and the people whom they cannot help loving for their many very attractive qualities.

I was very much struck by correspondence that I had with a certain Northern Ireland lady who was deeply distressed at the hardship suffered by the inhabitants of one of the Aran Islands, where she had spent a very pleasant summer holiday. She besought me to beseech the Minister to do what he could to provide them with a tolerable harbour and make it possible for a sick person to reach hospital facilities from that particular island without the danger of dying on the way through unsatisfactory harbour and boat accommodation. I am sure the Minister has that problem in mind, but I would like him to realise that that suggestion emanated from a Northern Ireland citizen who loves that particular part of the country. I think nobody would rejoice more than the people of Northern Ireland if we could make the conditions of life of these people more attractive and guarantee the permanence of their language and their civilisation.

In general, my grievance—not exactly grievance—but my attitude to this Bill is that I think its conception is too narrow; it is not sufficiently ambitious and not illuminated by the flame of the desire to revive the ancient civilisation and to make it worthwhile, even from the most modern 20th century point of view. There is too much of the procedure and I might almost say of the mentality characteristic of establishing a factory in a back street of Dublin.

The Bill refers to industrial undertakings in the Gaeltacht. Industrial undertakings are only one of the many things that are concerned in a process of genuine economic development of an area. I do not want us to think in terms merely of narrow industrial enterprise but in terms of a genuine economic expansion in the area as a whole, with all the social and cultural corollaries that will follow from success. There is too much admiration for the spirit of private individual and even individualist enterprise, which is all very well and has its place in our economic life, but somehow it has not had a very civilising influence and is not likely to have such influence, especially when it is a question of depressed areas or people with little economic strength and suffering from a low standard of living.

There is a danger that if you allow or encourage private individualist enterprise to run riot among a people who are so poverty stricken as these are, you will reproduce the conditions of early 19th-century industrialism in England, where the workers will be, perhaps, employed but nevertheless exploited; in fact, there are Irish writers who are extremely doubtful whether the ideal of private profit-making and private enterprise and all the rest is a genuine Gaelic ideal at all.

May I quote, in that connection, from a book that I had the temerity to publish a few months ago, in which I stated, on page 164:—

"James Connolly wrote a book called Labour in Irish History, the main contention of which was that ‘capitalist’ ideas about the sanctity of private property and the right to private profit-making are in fact a foreign import which came with the Conquest, and are alien to the Gaelic mind. The communal cultivation of land was a characteristic feature of the old Gaelic social order, and ultimately ownership belonged to no individual but to the clan or sect.

"Dr. E.E. Evans, of Queen's University, Belfast, in his book Irish Heritage finds traces of former communal land tenures in the ‘rundale’ system, and in the clusters of ‘clachans’ of peasant houses which are still found in parts of Donegal and Connaught. The completely isolated farms of to-day are, in his view, a comparatively modern innovation. The ‘townlands’ which still survive originally contained such clusters of houses, referred to as ‘towns.’‘These self-sufficing communities were held together by blood ties and by the exchange of services under the Irish open-field or “rundale” system of cultivation.’ If James Connolly and Dr. Evans are right it would appear that an important part of the Conquest still remains to be undone. For the ‘foreign’ idea of the sanctity of private property, in land and other means of production, appears to have penetrated deeply into the Irish mind.”

I throw that out for what it is worth, but whatever institutions we encourage the development of, I should like them to be genuine Irish institutions and not too much influenced by modern ideas in which individualist enterprise plays such a part.

There is in the Bill itself, though not necessarily in the administration of it when it becomes an Act, no reference to the importance of considering industrial propositions with reference to the general economic conditions of the locality, and it contains no reference to the desirability of creating what we might call a co-operative commonwealth, that is, a social order reflecting the spirit of the old Gaelic civilisation. I do not know whether the House is familiar with the term "gombeen man", but the "gombeen man" is, or was—and here I speak in ignorance of the present situation in the Gaeltacht and that is one of the reasons I regret that I have not had an opportunity of refreshing my contacts with that part of the country before making this speech—the dominant feature in the economic life of the Gaeltacht. If there still are such people, and that kind of person is the only influential person in these depressed or undeveloped areas, there is a danger that they will be the people who will profit by the financial lubrication which this Bill proposes, and that the general population will profit little or nothing in consequence, even if a few industries are established here and there.

I do not know whether the House has ever heard of the Templecrone Co-operative Society or heard of the name of Paddy Gallagher. I should like to put on the records of the House some information about that achievement in South-West Donegal which, I think, ought to be in the knowledge of every serious citizen of Ireland, because the methods pursued by Paddy Gallagher and the achievement he made seem to me to be the most hopeful feature of this whole business, and to point the way to the possibility of success of an industrial progress, not only from the point of view of its economic feasibility but from the point of view of its social and cultural attractions.

If Senators want to know the bare facts about the present position of the Templecrone Co-operative Society, I refer them to page 54 of the Report of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society for the year ending 31st December, 1950, where they will find that the society was founded in 1906; has a share capital of £1,243; a membership of 1,260 persons; a loan capital of £45,466; and a total trade turnover of £184,476 in that year. That is not bad going for a society like that. That society came into existence long before there was any question of the establishment of the Electricity Supply Board, but that did not deter the society from going ahead with industrial development. In fact, the society itself proceeded to create its own power station and its own power station still maintains a permitted existence supplying electric current in that immediate neighbourhood. If Senators will look at the annual report of the Electricity Supply Board, they will find on page 43 that the Templecrone Co-operative Society supplies 151 customers; charges them 8d. per unit, which compares favourably with the other surviving power concerns; and sold, in the relevant year, 9,480 units.

At page 326 of My Story in which Paddy Gallagher himself wrote the story of his own life, you will find these words:—

"I would like to put on record that the Templecrone Co-operative Society never asked for any favour from any British or Irish Government; never wronged man, woman or child; never oppressed any of our debtors; issued only two processes since it was started in 1906 and settled both of them. I am indeed pleased that I am still its President and Manager. Our sales turnover last financial year ending 30th September, 1945, was £154,440.

£

s.

d.

Paid Interest on Share Capital

87

14

0

Dividends on Members' Purchases at 2/- in the £

3,755

16

11

Interest on Deposits

605

13

1

Wages

10,985

4

8

Our investments exceeded our deposits by

16,917

12

3

That is a serious and important industrial achievement which ought to give us heart and courage with reference to the possibility of doing similar things in other parts of the Gaeltacht areas. But, 40 odd years ago, if the "gombeen men" had had their way in the Templecrone neighbourhood, that society would have been strangled at birth. May I quote in illustration of that fact certain other episodes in the early and stormy history of that society? It began by Paddy Gallagher deciding that it would be a good idea for the farmers to combine in order to buy the eggs of members and send them to the markets beyond Ireland and elsewhere at a better price than the local merchants were paying for eggs and an equally good idea to sell groceries and other household goods at a lower price than the local "gombeen men" were in the habit of charging their customers. His first experience of packing eggs was not very encouraging because he packed them all wrong and the first consignment was completely smashed, so he applied for information as to how to go about it and was told that he could learn from Mr. Barr, manager of a poultry society at Castlerock, County Derry. He says:—

"Off I went, arrived at the store, met Mr. Barr, and started packing eggs. The second day I was there Mr. Barr closed an hour earlier than usual. He told me that he had to attend an Orange meeting. He gave me a fright. With an Orangeman training me, how could I have luck....

The following Sunday after Mass, a man spoke to me outside the chapel door and asked me how I liked Castlerock."

Then he went on to say that Mr. Barr was not too bad and—

"This is a great place for Orangemen, some good, some bad, just like ourselves; but Mr. Barr is one of the best you ever met."

Then when Paddy the Cope came home,—

"I told them I had been with an Orangeman. My mother blessed herself and said, ‘Paddy, why did you not come home at once? God help you. I was afraid something would happen to you. I think there is something unlucky about the Cope.'"

That only leads up to what he wants to tell about efforts to smash the new society—

"They started a little co-operative on their own. They joined together in a traders' association. Their committee sent out a circular to all traders to organise in order to crush illegitimate trading."

They did their utmost to put the new society out of existence. Needless to say, however, they were circumvented by the enterprise of Paddy the Cope and the loyalty of his associates. However, they did other things, they put him in jail under an Act of Edward III as being a dangerous character likely to cause a breach of the peace. However, that particular incarceration did not last very long. That was the time that Father Finlay got busy on his behalf. Sureties for good behaviour were required but because he would not go bail under Statute 34 of Edward II, Chapter I, he was imprisoned and when he came out of jail he received a regular ovation.

Is it necessary to go into such detail?

Is it not sufficiently relevant, Mr. Chairman? Very well, I will shorten the proceedings in that regard. The moral of the whole thing is that industrial development is possible in the Gaeltacht and also such a development should be based on natural agricultural conditions and, if possible, take the form of a democratic co-operative organisation. In the case of Templecrone, the subsequent industrial development, which includes a knitting factory and a power station, was originally based on the fact that the society was selling the farmers' produce for them to the best advantage and selling them farming and household requisites at the minimum expense.

Such successful industrial development, where it has taken place, does solve the major problems that we have in view, in particular the problem of depopulation. In that connection, may I mention a few facts derived from Mr. Freeman's book on Irish geography—Ireland: Its Physical, Historical, Social and Economic Geography? He points out that Donegal, like many other parts of the country, has suffered a serious decrease in population, but he says, on page 479:—

"This decrease is less severe than in many other primarily agricultural counties of Ireland."

Later on, on page 485, he says, in regard to the immediate neighbourhood of Dungloe:—

"The entire area was congested in 1891 and would still be congested on a reassessment: the poor farmland areas to the south of Dungloe have lost from 20 per cent. to 40 per cent. of their population since 1891, but those to the north of Dungloe have actual increases (to 1936), a most unusual phenomenon in Ireland."

I am quite sure that those increases are a direct result of the economic success of Templecrone. Later on, on page 486, he says:—

"The success of the local co-operative movement has done much to maintain the comparative prosperity of this area. There are now factories for knitted goods at Dungloe and Kincasslagh, one of which has nearly 100 workers, and farm produce is marketed through the Templecrone Co-operative Society. The movement was in origin an attempt to remove the evil of the ‘gombeen man' who, calling at the cottages, gave the minimum price for eggs and butter and charged the maximum price for sugar and tea. In most cases his commercial activities were conducted solely on a barter basis."

That is not the only example of a successful industry established in the Gaeltacht. There is a woollen mills at Foxford which owed something to the late Sir Horace Plunkett, but which is carried now under the auspices of a local religious foundation. I have no detailed knowledge of its operation, but the fact that it continues a prosperous existence shows what can be done in a Gaeltacht area. Even under present difficult conditions it shows that industrial development is quite possible provided that the various human factors are brought together to do the right thing.

A principal resource of the Gaeltacht areas is turf. I wonder whether science has yet done all it could to explore the possibilities of turf. I have a feeling that some day our turf areas may become as economically important to us and for the same kind of reason as the coal-bearing areas in Britain or the Rhur are to those countries. After all, turf must contain many of the chemical constituents of coal, and I personally see no reason why it should not be possible on the bogs themselves to destructively distil turf with a view to acquiring a gas which would be inflammable, and piping that gas to various towns and centres of the country where it could be of domestic and industrial use. I just do not know whether that is possible or not, but I think it would be well if our scientists investigated the possibility of making use of turf by piping its gaseous by-products to places where they would become of use.

As to the methods which should be pursued by the board administering this Bill, I want to emphasise again the desirability of close co-ordination between all Departments that are in any way concerned with economic conditions in the Gaeltacht—for example, the Department of Agriculture, the forestry section, the Electricity Supply Board, the beet growing organisations, the Irish Sugar Company, the board dealing with arterial drainage, the turf board and the various local government bodies like urban councils and county councils. The new board should consider its function to be that of supplying the missing component that may make all the difference to the success of a scheme as a whole. Every single aspect of the problem, including those which are the special concern of several Departments, would have been suitably brought into focus. In that connection, I would like to emphasise once more that we have in view not only economic development but also the building of an appropriate Gaelic civilisation recalling the spirit of the old Gaelic civilisation and adjusting it to modern conditions. In this matter the whole future of Gaelic Ireland is at stake, and it is very important that whatever is done should have that broad horizon in view and not be confined merely to a desire to establish one or two industries here and there in the Gaeltacht.

I would like, first of all, to welcome the Bill and to congratulate the Minister on bringing it in. I want to join with the Senators who have spoken in hoping that the Bill will prove successful. Senator O'Brien has suggested that the position might arise where, after the first seven years and after the first £2,000,000 has been used up in order to provide employment, it would be necessary to provide more money in the succeeding seven years and a constant supply of State money would have to be spent in providing industries in the West. The Senator has warned us that we are making it possible for such a situation to arise by passing this Bill. I regard such a warning as an incentive to vote for this Bill. I take it that if, after the first seven years, private enterprise has come forward in sufficient quantity to use up the £2,000,000, no one will be more pleased than the Minister or the majority of Senators themselves. We cannot prophesy what will happen under the Bill. In other cases where the State undertakes to deal with the needs of areas such as this through the carrying out of such schemes as afforestation, drainage and the like, it is possible to calculate fairly exactly the amount of work which will be done in any particular period, for the State is doing the work itself. But this is a case where grants are provided for private enterprise if private enterprise wishes to take them up. If private enterprise does not come forward, then in that case, of course, nothing gets done under the Bill. We can only hope that private persons will come forward in sufficient number to make the Bill a success.

In regard to this Bill so far as it relates to the undeveloped areas as a whole, I have only three points which I should like to make. The first one is that I hope some effort will be made by An Foras Tionscal to set up industries not merely in the bigger towns in the West, but also in the rural districts as well. The Minister has stated that it will not be the policy of An Foras Tionscal to insist on an industry being set up in a particular place; that if a private industrialist wishes to set up an industry in a town An Foras Tionscal will not say to him: "There are already two or three industries in that town and you will not get a grant, but if you set it up in another town where there is no industry, you will get a grant." The Minister stated that that will not be the policy and I agree that such a policy would be very undesirable. At the same time, it should surely be possible for An Foras Tionscal to provide incentives to industrialists to set up outside the bigger towns; to say: "If you set up in this town, you will, of course, get the grant to which you are entitled so as to prevent your being at a disadvantage with industrialists elsewhere, but if you set up in some rural area, we will give you a rather bigger grant, we will make it worth your while." I hope they will make it their business to do that. Otherwise, the position will arise that in the towns industries will be set up, the towns will increase in size and in prosperity, but the rural areas will still remain in the condition in which they are at present where there is not sufficient employment for the people and no money coming in in the form of income and as a result there is a lower standard of living.

My second point arises out of the first one. The Minister, if I understood him aright, stated that the general intention of the incentives to be given to industrialists under this Bill is that by setting up in the western regions they will not be at a disadvantage. In other words, they will lose nothing as against those who set up in the East. I do not personally believe that that is really going far enough. As I understand it, the position is intended to be that An Foras Tionscal will work out that it would cost say X pounds more to set up something in the West than it would in Dublin or Cork, and that therefore it will give assistance to the extent of X pounds and no more.

I may be wrong, but it occurs to me that in regard to any large-scale industrial enterprise the capital and the managerial capacity will have to come from outside. Small industries might be set up by the people themselves, but any kind of large-scale industries you would expect to come from outside. It strikes me, at any rate, that there is no use in telling a man who lives in Dublin or Cork or in the east of the country that if he likes to set up west of the Shannon he will not lose anything by it. He will have a good deal of trouble in setting up there; he will have to go to a part of the country where he has no interests. Even if he gets a grant for training workers and the provision of a site etc., it will not mean any more to him personally than if he set up in Dublin unless he gets a definite incentive in the form of a rather larger scale of assistance than would otherwise be provided. I feel in the absence of such an additional incentive that industries will tend to be set up in the East rather than in the West.

My third point so far as the Bill relates to western areas as a whole might be perhaps better raised on the Committee Stage but I would like to say a few words on it now. It relates to Section 9, which provides that where sites are provided by An Foras Tionscal under the Bill the local county council may grant a two-thirds remission of rates for ten years. Sub-section (4) of that section says that where An Foras Tionscal decides in any local financial year that the industry concerned has not fulfilled the conditions under which it got the site, they can call on the county council to suspend the remission of rates in respect of that local financial year. Two difficulties arise here. One is—perhaps it is not very fundamental—that the remission of rates is for ten years and An Foras Tionscal, initially at any rate, will only last for seven years. You could well have a position, therefore, where there was no body in existence to call on the county council to suspend the remission of rates.

The second point is of more importance and that is, that the Minister in introducing the Bill made the point that, having got the initial grant, there is to be no further connection between the new industry and An Foras Tionscal. They get their grant and they know where they stand. One hopes that they will carry out the business in a proper way, but there is no further connection between the two bodies. As to the suspension of the remission of rates, it seems to me that An Foras Tionscal during the ten years will have to keep an eagle eye on the industry to see that it is carried out in accordance with the conditions initially imposed. This seems undesirable, especially in view of the Minister's desire that no conditions should be imposed as a condition of the giving of grants or other assistance.

I should like to say a few words on the subject of this Bill so far as it affects the Gaeltacht, especially the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. I personally do not believe that much, if any, industrialisation is likely to take place in the Gaeltacht under this Bill. It is clear that industrialists are much more likely to set up industries in towns like Letterkenny or Dungloe rather than in Gweedore, in Clifden or Galway rather than in Carraroe and in Tralee or Dingle rather than in Ballyferriter. However, it is always possible that such industries may be set up in the Gaeltacht and in the debate on this Bill in the other House the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, Deputy Lynch, mentioned that a number of private industrialists had seen him in connection with proposed schemes to establish industries in the Gaeltacht which presumably would be in a position to obtain assistance under this measure. In any event, apart altogether from any industrialisation that may take place under this Bill, it is clearly of paramount importance that a measure of industrialisation should be introduced for the preservation of the Gaeltacht.

It is clear, of course, that the problem of the Gaeltacht is quite different in many ways from that of the undeveloped areas in general. The same reasons for providing industries and other forms of employment for the western areas as a whole apply also to the Gaeltacht. Over and above all that we have to consider the importance of the Gaeltacht as a Gaeltacht and as the home of the Irish language. Take away the language from the Gaeltacht and nothing is left except another half-dozen parishes. It is, therefore, absolutely essential and vital that any industrialisation that does take place in the Gaeltacht should not in any way harm the language. It is, I think, patent that in the normal course of events any industry that is set up in the Gaeltacht will have to be run at the moment on the managerial side at any rate in English. The people in the Gaeltacht have no industrial training. Supervisors, foremen, skilled hands and managers will do all the talking and instructing in English and the work of the factory in general will be done through the medium of English. Gaeltarra Éireann has been mentioned by a number of speakers. Under that body we have the position that in places like Kilcar, County Donegal, there is a factory which has done a great deal of good work and provided quite a volume of employment for the people in the area. It has also done a good deal to raise the standard of living of the people there. At the same time it has done harm to the language.

The extent of the danger of anglicisation in the Gaeltacht is very often not fully appreciated. People tend to think that the only thing one has to do is simply to bring about a position where emigration will no longer be necessary; if we keep the people at home in the Gaeltacht the language is safe. That is the general attitude one finds. I would like to emphasise that in my opinion nothing is further from the truth. Emigration from the Gaeltacht is by no means the most important problem in that area.

In the 1946 census, as is apparently the way with census reports, the particular section dealing with these areas was only published last May. It exposes a very serious situation in the Gaeltacht. It shows that in every Fíor-Ghaeltacht area there has been a general fall in population. That one would expect because the western area as a whole lost population and in the Gaeltacht areas one would expect, perhaps, that the fall would be slightly greater than in the other areas of the West. But more serious and more important than that, this census report showed that in every Fíor-Ghaeltacht area, along with the fall in the number of Irish speakers, there was a considerable increase in the number of English speakers.

I do not want to burden the House with the figures for the various Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas. I might, however, mention Galway, which provides a particularly interesting illustration of this because the general fall in the Galway Gaeltacht was the smallest of all the areas. It amounted, in fact, to only 3.4 per cent. for the ten years 1936 to 1946 and, allowing for war conditions, it was negligible. In that area, the percentage fall in Irish speakers was 9.7 and that was balanced by a percentage increase in English speakers of 30.3. In other words, there were one-third as many English speakers in County Galway in 1946 as there were in 1936. The figures for the other Gaeltacht areas are somewhat similar.

Another aspect in which to regard this matter would be to take the definition contained in the Gaeltacht Commission Report of 1925 as to what constitutes the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. That report defined the Fíor-Ghaeltacht area as one where 80 per cent. or more of the total population spoke Irish and the Breac-Ghaeltacht as one where between 25 and 79 per cent. spoke Irish. In 1936 there were five Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas where 80 per cent. or more spoke Irish—Cork, Donegal, Galway, Kerry and Mayo. In 1946 there was only one left. I am not now talking about individual parishes or small areas. I am taking the Fíor-Ghaeltacht as a whole. The only Fíor-Ghaeltacht area left now is in Donegal where 80.4 per cent. of the total Fíor-Ghaeltacht population speak Irish.

These anglicising results have come about in ten years, ten years during which the Government of the day made efforts in various directions, such as the £2 per child scheme, to encourage the speaking of Irish. What do we find? We have the position to-day that even if emigration were stopped to-morrow in all the Gaeltacht areas, if the anglicising process goes on in a relatively few years there will be no Gaeltacht left at all except in the sense that the people might be there but they would not be speaking the Irish language.

It is in the light of that situation that I appeal to the Minister to ensure as far as possible that any industrialisation that takes place in the Gaeltacht should not result in an angliising process. I do not think anyone would deny that if an industry is established where the work is done through the medium of English an anglicising effect will ensue.

The test in any particular instance should not be whether the good an industry will do in providing employment and raising the standard of living of the people will outweigh the harm done to the language. The test should be: will the establishment of any particular industry in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht do harm to the language? If it is decided that it will, then it should not be set up. I do not care how much employment it might provide or how high it might raise the standard of living of the people. The essential thing is to ensure that its establishment will not do harm to the language.

I think the result of a policy of this kind will inevitably be that in fact little industrialisation will take place in the Gaeltacht under the ægis of private enterprise as a result of this Bill. Indeed, I am rather inclined to think that it would be undesirable for private industrialists to set up in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas, because even though it might be possible to devise some form of guarantee—and that might have the effect of frightening off industrialists who might otherwise go into these areas—it clearly would be quite impossible to enforce such a guarantee and if an industrialist saw fit to break it there is very little that anyone could do about it.

It is, of course, essential that industrial and other forms of employment should be provided in the Gaeltacht.

If private enterprise cannot or will not do it under this Bill then the State will have to do it itself. I would like to see some kind of board established such as An Seabhach and Senator Professor Hayes and other speakers suggested, a board on the lines of Foras Tionscal but with the power also of actually setting up industries itself— its primary purpose should be the preservation of the language.

There are only half a dozen parishes, at most six or ten, left which form the Fíor-Ghaeltacht as against the very big area that is covered by this Bill. The amount of money that would be involved would be very small compared with the £2,000,000 which it is proposed to provide to make a start under this Bill. I should like to see another Bill, on a smaller scale, introduced to deal with the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. I again appeal to the Minister to see that, as far as possible, no harm will be done in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht under this Bill. I should also like to see definite instructions given to An Foras Tionscal, without imposing conditions on them as to how they should set about carrying out the objects of the Bill as regards the starting of industries in the undeveloped areas as a whole that, at any rate, they should bear in mind the necessity of seeing that any industry set up in the Gaeltacht will not harm the language in any way. In conclusion, I wish to say that, generally speaking, I welcome the Bill very much. I am sure that in the areas which it is intended to benefit, apart from the Gaeltacht, it will do good work, and I certainly wish it every success.

I should like to congratulate the last speaker on his speech partly because I think it was very well put together, and partly because I found myself in substantial agreement with him on several points of which I had made a note. It is not my intention to deal with those points now because I feel they are essentially Committee points. It is extremely tempting, on a Bill of this kind, to discuss the many interesting problems of the Gaeltacht and the possible danger of industries being set up there. I think that on a Bill of this kind we must take from the Minister, who, at any rate, for the first period is likely to administer it, what its general object is. I listened very carefully to the Minister's speech. It seemed to me quite clear that, apart from himself and perhaps one or two other speakers, there has been a tendency to take a grandiose view of this Bill, to take it as a picture of something which it does not purport to do, and is extremely unlikely to do.

I, possibly, because of my training am inclined to view this Bill almost entirely from the practical point of view, and consequently I will probably have a good deal to say on it from that aspect in Committee. I do not intend to go into those points now. Almost all of them are practical points, concerned with the working of the Bill and the possible difficulties which may arise. Some of these points, it seems to me, did not receive sufficient attention in the other House. Therefore, I think it is quite proper that they should be carefully examined here on the Committee Stage when we meet early in the New Year.

My feeling towards the Minister and the new board, in the operation of this Bill, is mainly one of sympathy. I think they are going to have an extremely difficult task, and that it is going to be extremely difficult to hold the balance as between the different areas. To decide how much assistance is sufficient to provide for possible disadvantages and, at the same time, not to overdo it, will be no simple matter. I was almost going to say that the powers given in the Bill itself are going to be controversial. That, however, is not the point I want to convey. The Bill, however, deals with things on which the local people will have to decide and about which they are certain to argue. It is almost inevitable that you will have many people with grievances as a result. The Minister, with his wide experience, seemed to me, in the course of his opening speech, to appreciate to the full some of those difficulties.

To my mind, this is a Bill to give certain powers to the Minister for the further development of the industrial programme which is accepted by all parties, and, as far as possible, to see that that development is decentralised. Incidentally, I may say, because of the fact that certain areas are mentioned in the Bill, although there is power to include other areas, it has been thought by some people that this is simply a Bill to provide better economic conditions for certain areas in Ireland. The main object of the Bill, however, seems to me to be to assist the Minister in his endeavour—an endeavour which he and I think all his predecessors have accepted as being a desirable one—to increase our industrial arm and to prevent all our industries being situated in one or two areas.

We had what was to me at any rate, a very interesting speech from Senator Professor O'Brien. He said that the assumption that it was desirable to have industries in, say, the western districts, or in the outlying districts of Ireland, was not obvious. I thought, at first, that I completely disagreed with him, but I am inclined to think now that I do agree with him, to this extent, that it is not just enough to take an industry and say that it would be an excellent one in Mayo. It is not obvious that it would necessarily be better there than in some other part of the country. In other words, it would be no advantage to Mayo to start an industry there which, from the long term point of view, would be almost certain to do better in Drogheda, Dublin or some other city. That would not be of assistance to Mayo and would not be of much gain to the country as a whole. It does seem to me fairly obvious that, in a country of our size, it is not desirable to increase the population of Dublin or to increase the population in the East. That goes as much for Dublin as for the West, nor is it good to have too quick a development of industry in any one town if you cannot keep up with that development from the housing point of view because you may then have a possible labour shortage. The result of too quick development in one area may cause unemployment in another area.

The powers which are being given to the new board will, as I say, be very difficult to operate. I did not quite understand the Minister's reference to the independence of the board. To my mind, it is obvious that the board cannot be independent because the Minister can remove the members of it at any time. I think that is as it should be, and I am not objecting to it. I take it that what the Minister meant was that he does not think that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or his Department, should have a say in the board's decision as to the amount of money which should be given to a particular industry, or whether a particular industry should be assisted at all. But, as far as the main policy of the board is concerned, I do not see how the Minister can avoid responsibility. In that connection, I should like to ask him what will be the relation of the Oireachtas to this board. Will it be possible, for instance, to have questions asked concerning its operations, and can its policy be discussed once a year or, say, a report? In what way will there be contact between the Oireachtas and the board?

A point was made by Senator Hayes, and referred to, I think, by Senator Yeats, in regard to what the Minister had said, that his main object would be to make up the estimated disadvantage of starting an industry in one of these areas. It is quite obvious from the Bill that if it were deemed wise to do all the things which are set out in it for any one particular industry, there would be very much more to do than to make up that disadvantage. I do not think myself that too hard and fast a line can be drawn.

There is this danger with regard to industries which may be set up under the Bill. These industries can be divided, roughly, into two classes. There is, first of all, a type of industry which we have not got in this country at all. It will be an entirely new industry. It seems to me that, in order to get an industry of that kind established, the State might be justified in going considerably further than it would be if it were just a case of adding to the number of factories making a particular article at the present time. Now we have a number of industries at present. Most of them are situate in the eastern areas. They are serving the country well, but are not yet in a position to produce the whole of the home demand. If you are going to start an industry, say, in the West which will simply add to the number of these, and in that way provide competition, then I think the State will have to be careful, because no matter how desirable it may be to start an industry in the West, it is not desirable to have friction or to provide such conditions whereby the new industry would injure and, possibly, put out of business the older ones.

The Minister, to my mind, was sound in his general outlook and that was that he did not want any interference, but I had noted the point made by Senator Yeats which I intended to raise on the Committee Stage with reference to conditions in regard to rates. If there are conditions which will be ministered by the board there must of necessity be some form of supervision and that means interference. I also think the Minister was sound in the sense that he wanted whatever assistance that would be given to be given at the beginning are not continuous assistance. He said he had to modify that, I think, as a result of discussion in the Dáil.

The Bill, it seems to me, goes further because it provides for maintenance as well as the setting up of industry. I do not see much use in setting up a factory, say, in Mayo or Galway if it is not the honest opinion of the Government or of the board that it has a reasonable chance of permanent success. In the long run you will do more harm to the West if you set up industries which can only succeed because of the assistance you give them. There are two types of disadvantages. One is a difficulty in training workers in an area which has not an industrial tradition or in which workers have been entirely foreign. That is only a temporary disadvantage. That is the kind of disadvantage where you could quite properly give assistance. There is a possible disadvantage through the extra cost of building at a distance from Dublin and the possible cost of transport of building materials. That also can be met. But I do not think you can meet anything of the nature of a permanent disadvantage. It seems to me if you had an industry which had a reasonable hope of a substantial export trade which would have a permanent disadvantage in, say, Mayo or Roscommon or somewhere else in the West, I do not think we would be justified in building a new port of the size which would counteract the advantages of goods being conveyed to a port like Drogheda or Dublin.

I mention these points to show, firstly, that there are a good many difficulties and, secondly, that if we are going to pass a Bill of this kind, whether we like it or not, we will have to leave very wide discretion to the board or the Minister. I think myself some of the powers given to the board, if the board is to be as independent as the Minister indicated—and it is rather vague in the Bill—should be subject to his specific approval. As I have indicated the House wants this Bill passed. The principle is accepted, and it is a Bill which will require careful consideration in Committee.

I welcome the Bill on behalf of the county to which I belong. I think I might go a little further and say that I welcome the Bill on behalf of the three southern counties, Kerry, Clare and Cork. I listened to the opening statement of the Minister and to all the other speakers since then. Some were pessimistic and some were optimistic. I am inclined, generally speaking, to throw in my lot with the optimistic speakers. Some of the speeches that were made about the West were very depressing and one speaker told us that we could be quite certain that the scheme would be a failure. Other speakers spoke in somewhat the same strain. I do not know whether there is anything wrong in the West. I do not know the West very well but I do know there is a beet factory in Tuam and the amount of beet grown within 20 or 30 miles of that factory is very small indeed. There may be some inherent qualities in the people in the West that might not be in keeping with industrialisation of this kind. It may be that the treatment the people received 300 years ago when they were banished to Hell or Connaught may have left its effect on their descendants. Anyhow I wish the Minister to understand that on behalf of the three southern counties I welcome the Bill very wholeheartedly. I think I can assure him that there will be no doubt of the success of the industries which will be established in those places.

Senator Johnston in his considerable discourse mentioned Paddy Gallagher of the Templecrone Co-operative Society. The story from which Senator Johnston quoted is told in book form and I found it very readable and interesting. The moral of the story Senator Johnston told is that if the Minister put the right people on the board and if the industries which are started are launched by the right people, there should be no fears about their success.

I had some experience 15 or 18 years ago in promoting beet acreage for the Mallow Beet Factory. There was a considerable amount of pessimism in that area at that time. The honest-to-God farmers of the district thought we were setting up industries which were going to create strikes and upheavals and be a burden on the farmers of the countryside.

I remember on one occasion taking part in a canvass for that beet acreage. The canvass continued for three months and at the end of that period it was successful but in between there were some incidents and I should like to relate one or two. On one occasion myself and two others went to a farmer's house to ask if he would grow some beet. The people were very honest but they told us that they were in no position to participate in the growing of beet. They said, "if you go to the house yonder you will get a good response." We went to the house yonder and the man of the house set the dogs on us. I am telling you about that because we have had a great deal of pessimism in this House about this Bill. We were pessimistic also in connection with the starting of the beet factories. To-day, anybody in the town of Mallow or in the surrounding countryside will agree that the prosperity of Mallow is due to the beet factory which is standing nearby. As I said a minute ago, the honest-to-God farmers in this country who had to grow beet were afraid of strikes and upheavals. A year ago, in the middle of the beet season the transport section of Córas Iompair Eireann went on strike. If the private hauliers had not stepped into the breach the beet would have been left on the farms by the roadsides and the people of this country would have had to get sugar from Tuam.

I mentioned the board earlier in my speech, and I said it would be very important to elect the right people to it. The late Mr. O'Dwyer of Cork was a wonderful industrialist, and if the Minister could find a man like him for the board such a person would be a great asset. I know one or two men whom I would like to suggest to the Minister but I will not do it publicly. Forty or 50 years ago a number of co-operative societies were started in this country, and a big percentage of them failed because the wrong men were elected as managers. I am quoting such cases because I do not want history to repeat itself. I think it is very vital that special precautions should be taken to ensure that the proper people are put in charge of the industries which will be started in the congested areas as a result of this Bill.

I was once connected with a co-operative bacon factory and the gentleman who was put in charge of it was brought over specially from Denmark. He built the factory and then he knocked down the building and put in the machinery. He carried on making blunders of that kind for six years, and then he left the place in desperation. Fortunately, an Irishman who had been trained in Chicago turned up, and since then the place has gone from one success to another.

I have heard a good number of Senators saying that agricultural development might be a wiser undertaking than industrial development. While I am in full sympathy with that view, I do not see any reason why both could not proceed together and help one another.

I suppose it is rather premature to talk of the types of industries which would be established. Some Senators mentioned that Galway was a big sheep centre and that the processing of wool might be indigenous to that part of the country. I agree. Flax growing is very common in West Cork and the processing of flax might prove to be a very useful industry for that area. Phosphates are very expensive at the moment and it might relieve the situation somewhat if that industry were developed in Clare where the raw material is to hand. The seaweed industry has a possibility of development, too. Potash manure is very dear at the present time and seaweed contains a good deal of potash as well as other minerals. However, all this can be spoken of later. I wish the Minister God speed and I assure him that, with reasonable luck, any industry that might be started in the southern counties will be successful.

Coming, as I do, from the congested areas and having lived most of my life in such a locality, I feel I have a perfectly good understanding of the way of life of people in those areas and of the struggle they have to make to eke out a livelihood. If this Bill which we are discussing gives any assistance whatsoever to the congested areas, people west of the Shannon will be glad of such help. Personally, I will be very glad and I will give the work envisaged by the Bill all the help in my power. In company with the Minister, I am looking on this Bill as an experiment. However, everything has to have a start and maybe this experiment will be successful in a certain sense or maybe it will be a total failure. The West has peculiarities all its own. A person would need to reside in that part of the country in order to have a thorough knowledge and understanding of what the people there really need.

The British Government set up the Congested Districts Board and they did all in their power to help the West. The native Government continued the good work. Any one section of the Irish people do not like to see another section in desolation. The people of the East are broadminded enough to be sympathetic towards their countrymen in the West. Despite all the good intentions and despite all the efforts of successive Governments, the problem still remains unsolved. The congested areas are the sections of the country from which we have had most emigration and the outflow from these areas still continues unabated. The young boys and girls of the West have no inducements to keep them at home. They can never dream of settling down in their own country. Some of them who emigrate return when they have sufficient capital to enable them to settle down in their native country. If the experiment under this Bill succeeds, we will admit that it is a very great measure indeed, and if it succeeds even in part, this partial success will be very welcome.

In my native locality in the West and indeed throughout all the areas west of the Shannon, the real root of the evils, in my view, is the small holdings. The ordinary small landholder cannot possibly provide for his family. Some of these holdings have a valuation of £10 or under, which is very small indeed when compared to the very large valuations east of the River Shannon. We must all realise how great the struggle is for the man with a holding such as this. He can only provide for one member of his family— the one who stays at home to take up the cudgels when he lays down his oars. The others have to find employment elsewhere. I feel that the Government should allocate more land to the smallholder, and there is no use in saying that the land is not available, because it is, up to a certain point at least. If the smallholder had more land, instead of being able to provide for one child he could possibly provide for at least three. That would take a burden off the Government. That would mean that a man with a family of four or five would be able to provide for two or three himself and that the Government would be burdened with only one or two.

When the Congested Districts Board was set up it had one main plank in its platform and that was the resettlement of the land in the congested areas. They did not get sufficient time to carry out their ideas because they were brought under the Irish Land Commission. They did very good work in their day. Since the Irish Land Commission started operating over the whole of Ireland things have not gone along so well.

The Minister for Lands in the Coalition Government tried to bring to the western seaboard an industry which I favour very much—afforestation. In the West we have very large tracts of land which do not lend themselves to cultivation and which could never be anything but very poor grasslands. However, such lands would be very suitable for afforestation. We are all aware that the employment per acre on forestry is higher than in any other single agricultural pursuit. If the landholders of the Scandinavian countries had their way they would plant their entire acreage of agricultural land with forests. They had to be prevented by legislation 25 or 30 years ago from so doing.

Why are we so slow in starting forestry schemes in the western counties or why is there not a greater speed-up in the forestry section of the Land Commission to provide employment on the hundreds of thousands of acres of land that is at present useless and worthless, so that instead of having to migrate small farmers' sons would be able to find employment in their own localities where a wage of £3 or £4 a week, or whatever the union rate may be, would be as valuable as twice the amount if the small farmer's son has to seek employment in an industry in a town and live there? Forestry is a never-ending means of providing employment. Probably the reason why the Government has been so slow in tackling the problem of afforestation, as it should be tackled, is that a period of 30 or 40 years must elapse before there is any return from the trees planted but, once that return begins, it is a continuous return and a rotation scheme of afforestation gives constant employment. We know, too, that trees can be grown on the very poorest lands from which it would be impossible to get any other type of crop. If the Government instead of devoting this money purely to industrial development were to expend more of it on afforestation and establish forestry centres in various areas in the West, that would result in more regular employment than I believe it possible to provide under this Bill.

People living in the area which I represent, when they first read this Bill, were under the impression that the £2,000,000 which it is proposed to provide was to be expended in the form of Government grants for the congested areas and that the money would eventually find its way into the pockets of the people living there. Those of us, however, who have read the Bill know that that is not so and that this is merely a system to provide money to help industrialists to establish industries which, it is hoped, will give employment to the people of the West. That is the explanation of the Bill which the Minister has given. How far its objectives in that respect will be successful, remains to be seen. It is, I suppose, worth a trial but it is at least an admission from the Government that, so far as they are concerned, they have themselves no proper scheme that would in any way solve the difficulties of these areas and so they propose to finance private industrialists in the hope that private enterprise may do something to assist the people along the western seaboard. This effort may succeed, and I hope it does, but the industries—the establishment of which this board proposes to assist—must be considered very cautiously so that we shall not have industries in the West of Ireland producing articles that will be a burden and a headache to the rest of the community. In that connection, I should like to refer to the few alcohol factories that have been established in certain centres. We know that, while they provide a meagre amount of employment in Donegal and Mayo, they have been responsible for imposing an immense burden on the rest of Ireland in the way of a big increase in the price of the commodity with which the alcohol is mixed, namely, petrol.

I am sorry that the guiding hand of the Minister for Industry and Commerce will be absent from the activities of this board. I do not like to see complete control given to the board. As a number of other Senators have mentioned, I should like to see the activities of the board carried on in such a way that they could become the subject of debate in the Dáil or Seanad on the Vote for the Department of Industry and Commerce each year. If the board is operated in such a way that the industries which they establish in the West overlap, and are likely to add further burdens on the backs of the Irish people, it would be better to scrap this Bill altogether. If they help to establish industries such as the Foxford woollen mills for instance, no one could quarrel with their activities. That is an industry which has held the town of Foxford together and has given employment to hundreds who would otherwise have to migrate. I have my doubts as to whether this board will be able to decide the proper type of industry to establish because the Minister will not be there to guide them.

The idea of establishing industries along the western seaboard is of course to be commended inasmuch, as the Minister pointed out, there will be a wider variety of occupations available for the people in these areas. It is an undoubted fact that people from western areas who have migrated have proved themselves highly skilled and of great ability in every country in the world. We have been told that it was Mayo men who laid the foundations and built the docks in Liverpool. Similarly, they laid the foundations and built most of the docks in New York and Mayo technicians contributed their skill to the erection of skyscrapers all over the United States. That shows that when given an opportunity these migrants have the ability to acquire the technical knowledge necessary to success in any calling which they may adopt. They have been a credit both to the country of their adoption and the country of their birth. I am sure that they would be very glad to devote their skill to industries at home had they an opportunity of doing so.

I should like that the factories established under this Bill would be spaced out in such a manner that similar factories will not be running side by side and so that the maximum amount of employment will be given within certain areas, without compelling workers to travel too far to the factories where they will be employed. We have at present a few factories scattered here and there throughout the West which are making good progress and providing a certain amount of employment and I think that, in spreading out the new industries, the board should take into consideration the desirability of establishing them in areas which are served by railway lines. If, however, industrialists do not come forward and are not prepared to advance a certain amount of capital to finance industries in the West, it may be very difficult to get such industries established. People in small towns who have capital to invest may hesitate to invest their money in these undertakings. I know of efforts that have been made in years past by local development associations to try to get people who have money to invest it in industries which would provide employment and which would at the same time yield a profit to the investors concerned. These efforts have failed on many occasions. They have failed almost entirely because there has not been a sufficient spirit of local enterprise. Many applications by Deputies and groups of people to various Ministers in the Department of Industry and Commerce have been turned down because local enterprise has not come up to the mark in regard to providing the necessary capital.

Personally, I think there will be a certain amount of slowness on the part of local enterprise to come forward. The people in the West are peculiar in that way. The average merchant or businessman in a small western town who has, perhaps, accumulated a certain amount of wealth over the past 50, 60 or 100 years may be slow in putting a certain amount of his money at the disposal of the Government even though he will be getting a very substantial grant from the Government to establish a factory. If that does not happen and if the people interested in industry in the eastern part of the country fail to come forward and invest their money in the West, then I am afraid there will be a bit of a flop so far as this Bill is concerned. That is no fault of the Government nor is it any fault of the Minister whose ideas and intentions are definitely to try and do something for the congested areas under this Bill.

Another industry to which the Minister could give attention is turf. I could never understand why the Minister, during his term of office, did not establish a turf-generating station in North Mayo in the vicinity of Bangor-Erris. The demand of every representative from North Mayo for a number of years has been for the establishment of a generating station in the Bangor-Erris area. There is plenty of bog in this area. We are disappointed that the establishment of a generating station for electricity in this area has not received a certain amount of priority. I cannot understand why the Government—I am not laying the blame on the present Government. I blame the last Government also—did not establish a generating station in order to give employment and develop the immense number of bogs in that particular area. The establishment of such a station would give plenty of employment and it would provide something useful for the State. I know perfectly well that such an industry will not be established under this Bill. This is a problem for a Government to tackle and is not one that will be carried out by any industrialist or group of industrialists under this Bill. I would like very much if it could be carried out under this Bill but I do not expect it will.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister spoke about producing grass meal in the Bangor-Erris area. I have a feeling that the production of electricity would definitely be more practical and should get more consideration. I have often admired Deputy Martin Corry when, in the Dáil, he suggested that the idea held by the small farmers in the West in regard to agriculture was an entirely wrong one. He suggested—and I think there is a certain amount of sense in his suggestion —that the farmers in the western areas should go in for the growing of small grains instead of trying to compete with the larger farmers in the Midlands and South in the growing of wheat, oats, barley and potatoes. He maintained that the small farmers in the West should go in for the growing of flax, beet seed and establish nurseries for the production of seeds which could be made available. In this way, a rood of ground, if looked after, would be as valuable as two acres of land which grew wheat. I have a feeling that this would be a sort of "newlook" in the eyes of the farmers west of the Shannon and would not be accepted by the people. Therefore, I have a feeling that such a scheme would fail. It is a pity that such an idea could not be experimented with by the Department of Agriculture.

The Department of Agriculture—this may be slightly irrelevant to the Bill under discussion—should try to establish a model farm and show the people that they could make more money out of their holdings if they turned to a different system of farming. The whole idea should be to help the farmers and the small landholders of the West. That was the idea of the old Congested Districts Board. Their idea was to give a helping hand so that there would be a lesser burden on the central Government.

If the Minister can come along in five years' time and say that this Bill has relieved the unemployment of one individual in each household in the County Mayo, the Bill will have achieved its object. If the Bill cannot do that, it will be a total failure. If we had other Departments of State working side by side with the board established under this Bill, a great deal more valuable work could be accomplished.

There is another aspect to this Bill and that is the political advantage and political influence it will have. This Bill is being introduced, to my mind, solely to gain political advantage for the Party in power at the present time. In the last election the people west of the Shannon showed in an outstanding manner that the inter-Party Government were doing something in the best interests of those in the congested areas. The preference votes given to the inter-Party Government, as opposed to those given to the Fianna Fáil Party, showed that the people west of the Shannon were sympathetic towards the inter-Party Government and recognised that Government's intention to improve the conditions of the people. Now this Bill is introduced and the feeling is that it is being introduced for political purposes. I am broadminded enough. I do not care what political outlook it has, provided that something is done under it for the people who are in need and distress. It is a sad thing to think that the people in the congested areas should have to clear out to England or America. Perhaps after ten years, when they have amassed a certain amount of capital, they will return home and settle down to become most valuable citizens.

If we could catch them on the rebound it would be a good thing for the population of the Gaeltacht areas and of the congested districts. When the entire household departs and nobody is left to hold the fort then definitely there is a derelict house and a derelict holding and the loss of another good Irish family to Ireland and to these areas. There is no change now any more than there was 50 years ago. The same conditions prevail. The Land Commission is slowly though, perhaps, surely trying to help by migrating some Connaught families to the Midlands and dividing the land which they have left among those who have not enough already. Two generations have grown up since the Land Commission came into being and they are sick and tired of waiting for the problem to be solved by the Land Commission.

I want to say a few words about drainage, in connection with this Bill. The past Government, acting on legislation introduced by the previous Fianna Fáil Government, set about a drainage scheme—but it was a scheme for the eastern counties. I cannot understand why, when the priority list was being arranged, greater consideration was not given to the claims of the West in respect of land drainage, especially as it would result in more employment there. According to the list of priorities, there were four schemes ahead of the first scheme for the West. In my view that was bad policy so far as the West is concerned.

While drainage can be of great value, it is not something that will provide employment for generation after generation. A comprehensive drainage scheme over a period of ten or 15 years would settle the drainage problems of this country once and for all because drainage is a job that can be finished. Therefore, drainage as an industry can never be held up to provide lasting employment. Forestry, as an industry, is the direct opposite because it can give employment to generation after generation.

I should have preferred that at least one member of the board which is to be set up to help private individuals to industrialise the West came from the congested districts. I should have liked to see a person from the congested districts on that board so that he could advise the other members of the board—who may, perhaps, be civil servants or private individuals—on the proper type of industry for these districts. It is essential, in the establishment of industries in the West, that we manufacture an article or commodity which is saleable and for which there is a ready market. Let us not go into an industry which will not be able to pay its way within a reasonable period of time. A sum of £2,000,000 will be provided out of taxation in the next two years to subsidise the establishment of such industries. If great care is not taken, I fear the board may be a failure. For that reason I am sorry that the board was set up without permission being given to probe into its activities and also without having a Minister as head of the board.

Before I heard Senator Commons' speech I felt like congratulating the members of the Seanad for not following the example of some members of the Dáil by dragging politics into the debate. After reading some of the speeches that were made in the Dáil one could not help wondering if they could possibly have been made seriously. We have had very little references of the kind made in the Dáil except from Senator Commons. To put it bluntly, he accused the Government of introducing this Bill for the purpose of catching votes. On that basis, any scheme introduced by any Minister can be criticised as Senator Commons criticised this Bill. It is possible to say the same thing about any other part of the country, be it east or west of the Shannon. If a Minister brings in a Bill to set up an industry in any town in Ireland he is likely to be accused of trying to get some votes in that particular town. Thank God, that policy has not existed in this country heretofore and I do not believe it will exist in the future.

In my opinion this Bill is being introduced to fill a long felt need in the country. I believe it will do considerable good. I am glad it makes provision for the setting up of industries where they are most wanted. For years past we have heard a lot of talk about the decentralisation of industry. Most of us realise that while that is a very desirable object it is very difficult in many cases to put it into effective operation.

I should like to put a few propositions before the Minister in connection with this Bill. I consider that, in addition to establishing new industries, the existing industries should be helped. I suggest that one of the oldest industries in this country is the breeding of the Connemara pony and I feel that that industry should be helped now under this Bill. Most people look in amazement at you when they hear you talk about helping the Connemara pony industry. A small number of men and women have worked consistently over a number of years to further that industry. As a result, one might say that they have rescued the Connemara pony breeding industry. The annual show is becoming one of the most important events of its kind in the country. It is attended not merely by people from different parts of Ireland but by people from across the Channel who want to see these ponies in their native territory. A very definite market exists to-day for these ponies. They are the most suitable animals in the world for use as children's ponies. Generally, in the showyard, they are not described as "Connemara ponies" but just "ponies." Some kind of a fancy name is put on them and off they go. My idea is that when good Connemara ponies are sold, some publicity should be directed to that particular line of business and that their subsequent careers should be followed so as to make clear to everybody that this particular breed can be developed into the most useful animals that could possibly be produced for various purposes. The trouble is how to deal with the misfits. To my mind the misfits can be used to very great advantage in businesses such as the milk haulage business where light delivery and short haulage exist.

Everything possible should be done to help the people who for a number of years have worked consistently to give the Connemara pony the recognition it deserves, namely, that it is one of the oldest pure-bred horses in the country.

Two or three speakers referred to the possibility of setting up a woollen industry in the West. I believe there is a lot to be said for that idea. However, I would go a little further and say that, over a number of years, particularly some of the very bad ones which we had not so long ago, the sheep in the mountain areas died, the people met what they call "a lot of bad luck" and misfortune and, as a result, the sheep population in those areas has gone down. A little attention could be usefully directed towards that industry also. While we have in the areas covered by the Bill very useful mountain lands, they are not sufficiently stocked and a very good job would be done if that matter could be looked into with a view not alone to increasing the number of sheep but to improving the breed.

Something might also be done with regard to the breeding of pigs on a co-operative basis. It has been done in this country. I do not want to publicise the people who engaged in this work—it is dangerous to mention names—but it has been done and done very successfully. That would be an ideal industry for that part of the country.

Somebody also mentioned refrigeration. I believe that the country is crying out not alone for one but for two or three cold storage plants. The only way it could be done properly, I believe, is under Government auspices under some such Bill as this. One might be set up in Galway, in Dingle, or here and there, but wherever they were established, they would be of wonderful value from the point of view of the poultry, fish, beef and bacon industries as well as many other industries which have been discussed under this Bill. I am thinking particularly of an area in Cork—Bantry. I went down there with somebody last year with a view possibly to establishing an industry. I must say that I was very much impressed. This could be a wonderful industry to deal with pigs, poultry, fish and things of that type.

I did not intend to talk at all but I am glad that such confidence has been displayed in the Minister. The only criticism I heard of the Bill was that he would not himself be available to look after the various schemes. It is grand to hear things like that. I am sure that the Minister will hold a watching brief and anything over which he holds a watching brief will be done properly.

I should like to preface my remarks by congratulating the Minister on his perfect timing in the introduction of this Bill to the Seanad. It is, in effect, a Christmas box of £2,000,000 from one section of the State to a group or groups. At this time of the year it is most appropriate that it should be introduced.

I welcome this Bill with mixed feelings. I would rather have been in a position to welcome it 25 years ago. I am also wondering to myself what extraordinary repercussions the Bill may have on existing industries in the areas now defined in the Bill. Many Irish industrialists did not wait until to-day to set up industries in these areas. I am connected with several industries there and I am rather worried lest, with this Bill, some group may now come along and, by virtue of their being a new group and by virtue of the fact that there may be unemployment in the district, get facilities for the purchase of machinery, the training of workers, the building of the industry and in the way of remission of power costs and rates which I and my predecessors could not have got.

I am not at all opposed to the spirit behind the Bill but I do see that it will have very grave repercussions which have not been foreseen nor mentioned by members of the Seanad on existing industries. It would be quite impossible, I am afraid, for any board which might be set up to exclude from those areas all industries that might compete with existing industries. I would reinforce the appeal of Senator Quirke and others that rather than go in for the immediate establishment of new industries the board might fairly examine the position of existing industries and see how they could be amplified or assisted. It is in a sense a rather unfair Bill from the point of view of industries which have been privately established in those areas. I can see the grave difficulties the board will have in saying to anybody who comes along, say, in Donegal where I have an interest in some factories: "There is unemployment in Donegal and we want to extend industries." This is the one county coming under the scheme which has an industrial tradition behind it and has developed an industrial arm. Perhaps no other county in these areas has developed industries as Donegal has and an industrial tradition among the workers. When new groups can get a grant of 50 per cent. on machinery, a grant for buildings and the training of workers, a remission of rates and a remission of power charges making these charges in Donegal comparable with Dublin power charges, it is going to make it very difficult for industries already established to compete with industries of a similar nature set up under the Bill.

I am not cavilling at the Bill but I do see grave difficulties arising and I hope that the Minister will discover some method of avoiding a clash at some time between industries already established both within and outside of areas defined in the Bill without Government assistance and industries now set up with Government assistance. If some taxation is taken from me and it is used to finance my competitors it is a situation which I am sure was very far from the Minister's mind when he was preparing the Bill.

I do appeal that the board be completely and entirely composed of civil servants. I make a very strong plea for that because if the board is not composed of civil servants it is quite possible that an atmosphere of political patronage might surround it. After all, this is a matter of giving away money. I would rather see loans than grants because with loans there is a certain amount of responsibility. This is giving away to any group which puts up a reasonable case to the board a sum of money to create an industry. I need not tell the Minister that with the type of mentality we have in this country if these people are not civil servants they will be subject in their decisions to some form of influence, political or otherwise. I have reiterated time and again my belief in civil servants, their integrity and their great sense of justice in administration, and it is because of that that I stress the necessity of appointing a board entirely of Civil Service composition.

I would renew of course my appeal that the board should, before setting out on the establishment of new industries, examine existing industries and see, if an industry has to be set up in some area, that it is not competing with an existing industry unless that existing industry refuses to extend itself to the degree required by the board and the Minister. If competition is allowed to arise between a Government-financed industry and a privately-financed industry in the one area it may cause all sorts of repercussions and the Bill may not solve the problems but cause further trouble.

I will not refer, as far as details are concerned, to aspects of the Bill which have been referred to already. I am just referring to the basic difficulties and basic dangers I see in the Bill. I do not want to be misinterpreted or misunderstood. I am in entire sympathy with the idea behind the Bill, the idea of preserving our people from emigration, but I can see that the Bill will need very careful implementation to ensure that it does not interfere with existing industries in the areas defined by the Bill or in any areas defined by the Minister. Anything that can help the diversion of population from Dublin is worthy of support. It is a grave national danger that Dublin should grow as it has grown so that we have 500,000 people living there. If any other method than the method embodied in this Bill could be discovered for the establishment of industry, I would be much more happy in welcoming it in this House.

My colleague, Senator Summerfield, referred to craft and cottage industries. For years I have been associated with such industries and I do hope the Minister will ask the board to give such industries priority if possible. The ideal place for a woman to work is in her own home. There are many types of industrial work that can best be performed there. Any of us who has contact with Donegal knows that there has been home industry in that county not only in the last few years but for centuries. There you have the hand-embroidering, hand-knitting and hand-weaving home industries. The extension of the craft and cottage industries to other areas would be more desirable than the setting up of commercial industries.

I am not quite sure whether the development of inland fisheries comes within the scope of the Bill or not. I would make a plea for the establishment of that industry. I am sure the Minister will agree that that would be a desirable development. I have read a book on the subject by Mr. Digby who stresses the fact that inland fisheries can earn an income of at least £1,000,000 and possibly £50,000,000 a year. I put that to the Minister as being worthy of consideration.

May I suggest to the board through the Minister that in the development of industries they might associate themselves with such organisations that may be more altruistic than the Federation of Irish Manufacturers, such as the Countrywomen's Association and Muintir na Tíre, who would have a different outlook and who might suggest types of industry other than what are described as commercial industries?

Senator Professor Johnston referred to Paddy the Cope to-day. Paddy and I started many years ago the manufacture of carpets and rugs in Donegal of a luxury quality and we found they were desired by certain markets. Owing to the outbreak of war we were unable to continue. I am of the belief that similar industries could be started all over this country. There is a very big export market for luxury goods and for such goods there are possibilities for development.

Deputy Commons referred to the alcohol factories as being to some extent failures. As a motorist I am afraid the product of the factories has not helped the durability of our vehicles. I am sure Senator Summerfield will agree. Their produce, I am told, affects carbonisation. I am given to understand that by a very small alteration in the chemical process another article could be produced which is in world wide demand at the moment. I may possibly convey the information relative to this to the Minister at the first available oppertunity.

I would ask the Minister to do something about scientific research in connection with wool. I spoke about that before and told how artificial wool was now being produced. If that cannot be done with a natural fibre, there is something wrong with our chemists. I believe it can be done.

I hope that the Minister will see that all industries set up under this Bill conform to the Control of Manufactures Act. The Control of Manufactures Act, such as it is, does try to keep our industries within the control of Irishmen. I hope also that all the workers employed will be paid at the same rates of wages as are paid by similar industries in other areas. I can see great difficulties arising out of the provision in the Bill to pay for the training of workers. That will affect other industries. One of the greatest costs of industry is the training of workers. If somebody is going to start in an area with which I am associated, in a similar line of industry, and the training of his workers is paid for, while I have to pay for the training of my workers, it will be a very serious disadvantage to me and one that should not be approved by this House.

I was sorry to hear Senator Johnston deride the Connaught men as being undesirable as emigrants. I would not like it to go forth from this House that any section of our people were less civilised than the members of this House. As a Connaught man I would like to protest against that. The men who come from Connaught, come in good faith. We are all human. We make mistakes. I am afraid that Senator Johnston, in his lyrical fashion, did not improve on Austin Clarke's noble poem, "The Cattle-drive from Connaught."

The Minister may smile if I ask him to do something about shark fisheries. It is an industry which could be improved. The fertilisers that can be produced from sharks are of great national value.

I want to stress the possibility of the difficulty the Minister will have in trying to avoid clashing with existing industries. The new industries will affect existing industries to a greater or less extent and I am very sorry that the Bill was not introduced 25 years ago because many of us who would have started in these areas because we thought it a proper thing to do might now be richer men.

Tá sé ag eirí déanach agus nílim chun an Seanad do choimeád go ró-fhada.

Bhí an-áthas orm nuair a bhí trácht ar an mBille seo ar dtúis. Sinne go bhfuil suim i nGaeilge agus sa nGaeltacht againn cheapamar go mbéadh baint speisialta aige leis an nGaeltacht. Chimíd anois nach bhfuil. Bhí díombádh orainn nuair chonacamar nach raibh.

Ní chiallaíonn sé sin nach bhfuil suim againn sna ceanntair chúnga, mar atá. Tá suim mhór againn sna ceanntracha sin agus tuigimíd, leis, go ndéanfaidh an Bille seo maitheas má oibrítear i gceart é agus má gheibheann sé comhoibriú ceart ó mhuintir na gceanntar gcúng. Ach tuigimse go bhfuil a lán daoine sa gceanntar sin agus is dóigh leo nach gá ach iarratas a chur isteach chuig an Rialtas agus go bhfuighidís tionscal iomlán glan amach gan a thuilleadh trioblóide. Más é sin atá i n-aigne ag muintir na gceanntar gcúng maidir leis an mBille seo is baolach liom nach n-éireoidh leis an mBille.

Ní bhaineann an Bille seo leis an bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Sin é an rud is mó go bhfuil suim agam féin agus cuid eile anseo ann agus b'fhéidir go bhféadfaí an Bille do leasú nuair a bhéas sé ós ár gcómhair arís. Maran féidir an Bille do leigheas, caithfimíd iarracht a dhéanamh ar Bhille nua ar fad do thabhairt isteach sa Dáil.

San am gcéana, idir an dá linn, ní gá dúinn fanacht diomhaoin. Tá a lán rudaí gur féidir linn iad a dhéanamh chun cúnamh a thabhairt do sna daoine sa Ghaeltacht. Táimíd ag cur na Ghaeltachta agus scéal na Gaeltachta ar an méar fhada le 20 blian agus má chuirimíd ar an méar fhada arís é, ní fios cathain a tabharfar aire cheart do. Tá cuid againn agus is dóigh linn gurb í an teanga an rud is luachmhaire atá ag ár náisiún. B'fhéidir go bhfuil daoine anseo nach dtuigeann é sin nó nach gcreidfeadh é sin, ach ní bheimíd sásta agus ní stadfaimíd—cuid againn, pé'r domhan é—go dtí go ndéantar aire cheart do thabhairt don Ghaeltacht agus go dtí go dtabharfar cosaint cheart don teangain sa Ghaeltacht.

Mar adeirim, d'fhéadfaí a lán rudaí a dhéanamh fhaid is bheimíd ag feitheamh. Ar dtus, d'fhéadfaí taighde a dhéanamh ar na plandaí mara agus cad a b'fhéidir a dhéanamh astu. Tá roinnt oibre á dhéanamh cheana féin mar gheall air sin, mar gheall ar bhia i gcóir ainmhithe d'fháil astu, agus tá obair den tsórt sin ar siúl in Ollscoil na Gaillimhe agus ba cheart cabhair a thabhairt don obair sin chomh mór agus is féidir. Is féidir dathanna seasamhacha d'fháil as sliogáin mhara agus ba cheart féachaint chuige sin.

Tá tionscail eile sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht cheana féin, tionscail dúchais go bhfuil traidisiún taobh thiar díobh leis na mílte blian—an t-iascaireacht féin cuir i gcás—agus maidir leis sin, muna bhfuil an t-iasg ag teacht isteach chugainn, ar nós Mahommet agus an sliabh, ba cheart dúinn dul fé dhein an éisc. Ní féidir é sin a dhéanamh gan báid chearta, báid mhóra agus cuanta calma, sábhalta; ní féidir báid mhóra bheith ag na daoine seo gan cabhair agus ba cheart iad do chur ar fháil dosna h-iasgairí chun a chur ar a gcumas slí bheatha d'fháil as an bhfarraige. Thíos sa Daingean cupla blian ó shoin, theastuigh uaim dul amach ar an bhfarraige leis na hiascairí ag iascaireacht agus dúradh liom nach raibh na hiasgairí ag dul amach an oíche sin. D'fhiafríos; "Cén fáth sin?" agus sé an freagra a fuair mé ná: "Níl aon mhaitheas dul amach mar pé iasg a thógfaimís ní fhéadaimís é a chur ar an margadh."

Is mór an náire go bhféadfadh a leithéid sin titim amach. Ní ceart go gcoimeádfaí na hiascairí díomhaoin cúpla lá sa tseachtain. Ba cheart deis a bheith acu an t-iasg a bhailiú agus é a choimeád i leac oidhre agus é chur ar an margadh in a dhiaidh sin agus, mura bhféadfaí é sin a dhéanamh, d'fhéadfaí é do chur ar salann nó é a chur i stánaibh. Is náireach an scéal é, sinne a bheith ar chósta na tíre agus gan aon iasg le n-ithe againn Dé hAoine, fhaid is a bhíonn iascairí an Daingin diomhaoin dhá lá sa tseachtain. Níl aon leithscéal chuige sin. Tá gléas iompair againn chun an t-iasg do chur ar an margadh agus d'fhéadfaí gluaisteáin d'fháil gan aon trioblóid agus fiú amháin eitealláin dá mba ghá é. Ós rud é go bhfuil an gléas iompair sin againn ar ár dtoil, níl aon leithscéal le na leithéid.

Anois, eisirí—d'fhéadfaí tionscal na n-eisirí d'fhorbairt gan aon trioblóid. Tá siad le fáil ar ár gcósta agus in áiteanna in a bhfuil siad ar fáil go nádúrtha, níl aon amhras, má tugtar aire dhóibh, go n-eireodh go maith le tionscal mar sin.

Mar adúirt an Seanadór Ó Cuirc, tá cineál caorach againn i measc sléibhte na Gaeltachta, caoirigh a bhfuil lomraí fada garbha orthu, an saghas olla a bheadh ag teastáil chun éadaí urláir a dhéanamh. Sin rud a d'fhéadfaí chur ar bun chomh maith lembr éidínrsam agrbh i gcóir cótaí móra uri daí sanagu sin.

Ansan, tá ceist na gcrann agus na gcoillte. Tá a lán gleannta idir na sléibhte sa Ghaeltacht agus níl aon úsáid á bhaint astu. Dá gcuirtí crainn iontu, i gceann 20 blian nó níos lú, d'fhéadfaí úsáid a bhaint as na crainn a bhainfí amach agus dfhéadfaí tionscal a chur ar bun in aice na háite seo 'na dhiaidh sin mar deineadh ar na Landes sa Fhrainc. Tá a lán tionscal ag baint leis na crainn d'fhéadfaí a chur ar bun sna h-áiteanna seo.

Bhí sé im aigne labhairt ar chúrsaí oideachais agus ar chúrsaí cultúra ach tá sé ag eirí déanach. Rudaí anthábhachtach iad seo. Bímíd ag caint mar gheall ar dhuairceas na tuaithe. Is mór an trua nach gcuimhnaíonn daoine a labhrann mar seo ar dhuairceas na gcathracha. Níl aon duairceas i saol na tuaithe, d'éinne go bhfuil an claonadh ceart fachta aige is léir dó áilneacht agus aoibhneas na tuaithe ach níl an dearcadh ceart á thabhairt san oideachas atá le fáil sa Ghaeltacht. Ní gá an Bille seo in aon chor chun é sin a cheartú.

Maidir le cúrsaí cultúra, ba cheart halla do thógáil anseo agus ansiúd agus ba cheart go mbeadh deis acu chun drámaí a léiriú, chun ceol agus rinncí Gaelacha a chleactadh, agus ba cheart go mbeadh páirceanna acu chun bheith ag imirt iontu. Sin iad na rudaí go mbeadh gá leo chun cúrsaí cultúra do chur ar aghaidh, agus tá súil agam go ndéanfar rud éigin chuige sin.

I welcome this Bill for the purpose set out in the Bill itself, for what it proposes to do for the western seaboard and particularly because it applies to parts of Clare which are described as congested. However, not having the same simple faith in the Minister as Senator Quirke has, and having been elected to this House as a politician, I must look at this Bill through my political spectacles. In his opening statement, if I remember the words rightly, the Minister said that the purpose of the Bill was to arrest and, if possible, to reverse, the flight from the West. Perhaps I may be pardoned if I suggest that the Minister was speaking with his tongue in his cheek and that he may have been thinking of the flight of votes and the flight of seats from the Fianna Fáil Party. Be that as it may, if the purpose of the Bill is to arrest and, if possible, reverse the flight from the West, I suggest to the Minister that industries which employ in the main male labour must be fostered.

Some Senators here suggested that arts and crafts should be fostered. To my mind, those would be natural to the western areas if the tourist industry were fostered and encouraged more in the West. I do not think that this new board should worry unduly about the arts and crafts. If the other bodies which are catering for tourism do their job well and with sufficient enthusiasm, I think the arts and crafts will flourish as a result. I suggest that emigration can only be stopped if male labour is employed in the industries set up there. That being the case, I would like to mention a few industries that might be encouraged under this Bill in my own county. Senator O'Callaghan mentioned one I had in mind, the phosphate industry in North Clare. People outside this House and probably some inside it will say that phosphates can be purchased more cheaply from North Africa. That is the case, I believe, but if we have £2,000,000 to spend in fostering industry I suggest that some of that money should be spent on the phosphate industry in North Clare, which is an area included in this Bill as a congested area.

Another area which is specifically mentioned in the Bill brings in the possibility of dealing with the old slate quarries in Broadford. I heard it alleged no later than last Sunday that the quarrying of slate is in itself an art and must be learned from the slate splitter and passed on from father to son. If that be the case, this is an industry which should be fostered, as obviously there are no chances now of having this trade carried on from father to son in County Clare. Another industry which might be fostered in Clare is the production of bricks. Just outside Ennis, there are huge natural deposits of clay which cannot be worked successfully at present through lack of money or through a certain shyness on the part of private enterprise. If the new board investigated the possibilities of manufacturing bricks around Clarecastle, private enterprise in Ennis might be sufficiently stirred to put some spare money into that industry. That would help to relieve the chronic unemployment with which that particular area is cursed. Another industry is the artificial manure industry, which I believe can be carried on by processing seaweed. Kilrush is ideal for that and— I speak subject to correction—there has been some small attempt at it by private enterprise. The new board might investigate that point also.

Senator Stanford regretted the powers of compulsory acquisition of land contained in the Bill. He made the point that if all the boards and public bodies which have power to acquire land compulsorily used those powers, there would be very little land left for anybody else. If the new board is acquiring land compulsorily, I suggest that they should give the real value put on it having regard to the fact that the board requires it, that is, not the value of the land before the board gives notice of its intention to acquire it but the value which the owner would get in any open market if a private buyer were in the same position as the board and were getting land for his own purposes.

Once more I welcome this Bill because it relates to specific areas in my own county. I can assure the Minister that my colleagues in Clare and I will give him, and through him the board, every assistance in our power.

I did not propose to speak in this debate but, as a result of the remarks made by some Senators, a few stray thoughts have occurred to me. I do not blame the Minister or any Minister if he shirks for all time doing anything whatever for the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. Anyone who attempts to raise the economic level of the people there is instantly warned of the consequences of his action. He is told that anglicisation will be introduced and that he is acting in a spirit contrary to that of the language revival. There is nothing new about that—that kind of attitude has persisted for many years.

Senator Yeats gave us some very interesting figures regarding the increase in the numbers of speakers of English in County Galway and the decrease in the number of Gaelic speakers. These figures were, to say the least of it, alarming. I think they can only mean that in 15 or 20 years the Gaeltacht will have disappeared completely. The people living in there now will have emigrated either to other parts of Ireland where they can get a decent living or across the water to secure industrial employment in Great Britain.

The people who take up this attitude of "touch it not" with regard to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht are actuated by the very best motives, but I think the whole psychological approach is wrong. In my experience, the people in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht feel themselves that they are the Cinderellas of the nation. It is all very well to have a number of our "lá brea's", as they call them, or increment-hunting officials going down and spending a month or two in the summer to learn the Irish language and then departing. They feel, and you cannot blame them for feeling, that there is a snob value attached to the speaking of English. They feel that by learning English and speaking English they are going to improve themselves economically. Can you blame them for that? If they remain in their own area, what prospect lies ahead of them? Can they get employment which will enable them to marry and settle down and bring up families? They cannot. I am sure, however, that, as a result of what he heard in An Dáil and what he heard here yesterday and to-day, the Minister would be very loath to encourage interested manufacturers to set up industries in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. He would be afraid that he would be severely criticised, that there would be a hunt on him.

I suggest that he should take the bull by the horns—he is not a man who lacks courage—and that, subject to proper safeguards which could be enforced, if at all possible industries should be created in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht so that the people in those areas may have faith in their own future as inhabitants of those areas.

That is not enough, however. I think one of the factors which is not sufficiently emphasised in dealing with and discussing the problem of emigration from this country is the incredible dullness of the remoter rural areas. It is all right for us here in Dublin to give good advice, but very few people would like to live west of Cahirciveen in County Kerry throughout the winter months. What are you going to do about that? No matter what you do, no matter how successful you are in setting up industries, you may be able to get labour forces initially, but I doubt very much whether you will be able to keep them unless you provide these people with the amenities of life, of modern living, which they can get elsewhere. We all look for these things. Why should we suppose that they are any different?

I suggest to the Minister that he should study the reports of C.E.M.A. in Great Britain and the Six Counties —the Council for Education, Music and the Arts—and that he should acquaint himself, if he has not already done so, with the excellent work done by that body. That work might be undertaken —I trust I am not straying outside the limits of the Bill—by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. It is a matter which could be well linked up with Radio Éireann which could broadcast a separate Gaelic programme on a separate wavelength. The danger is that the "arty-crafty" people may get after that. Their idea will be: "Set up museums and let them gaze upon reproductions of the Old Masters." That is a very good thing and it may come in time. In the meantime, however, give them amusement, give them what they want rather than what you think is good for them. Give them the music to which perhaps they can beat their feet, the music which they want rather than concerts of classical music which might be very good for their souls, if they choose to listen to them; the probability is that they would not.

That is one of the principal factors, not merely with regard to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, but with regard to the whole of the congested areas and I think that it should be tackled pari passu with the provision of industries, because if you do not do it—I repeat myself because I think it is worth while—then you are not going to keep the people there. You will find that a number emigrate from an area in which there has not been any emigration previously, they come home for holidays and they tell the story of the great time they are having, and the other young people will get the idea: “Why should I remain on here in the long winter evenings with nothing to do, no social activities, no amusement?” The only amusement they have is when they go into Galway or Dingle and see American films. Either we are sincere about the Irish language or we are not. If we are sincere about the Irish language, we must be prepared to spend money. It will not be productive in the sense in which an economist uses the term “productive”, but it will be most productive in retaining for us our own language and, to use a cliché, our traditional way of life.

I would also suggest the provision of scholarships for people in the Gaeltacht, not to send them to the universities so that they might become doctors and lawyers, but that they might become technicians and come back and work in the factories which the Minister hopes will be set up by private enterprise and which I trust, if not set up by private enterprise, he will himself move to set up as Government-sponsored institutions. As has been stated by somebody in An Dáil, there are technicians in Glasgow—we have all met them at St. Patrick's Day functions—who speak excellent Irish and would like to come back to Ireland and the Gaelic part of Ireland, provided they would get proper housing and would not have to live the life in which we force these people to exist at present. There will be no difficulty about getting it done. It is a question of altering the whole psychological attitude. If the people in the Gaeltacht feel: "We are going to have an integrated life here, we have had security here", their attitude to the Irish language will change. They will not be eager to drop it and learn English.

One other point was mentioned by Senator O'Donnell in regard to the position of the board with which I agree. It would be very dangerous if it could be thought that the personnel of the board were, in their actions, inspired in any way by political motives. I have the fullest confidence that the Minister will ensure that that is not the case. At the same time, I do not know whether I would agree entirely that the board should be composed altogether of civil servants. It would be good perhaps to have two civil servants and one other person with a wide experience of industry. It should not be impossible to get in this country somebody who has not got, at any rate, open political affiliations, or even somebody who has political affiliations but as to whom all Parties could feel, "There is a person who will do his best to discharge the task entrusted to him." That should not be impossible. The reason I say that is that if you have civil servants altogether there may be a tendency to adopt red tape methods to a great extent. As I said here last week, I am not one of those people who attack civil servants as if they were a race apart. It is becoming a popular tendency nowadays to treat them as if they were evilly-disposed persons who work for a Minister in the Minister's way. Of course that is the sheerest balderdash and nonsense. It is composed for the most part of the intellectual cream of our people. They work extremely hard. At the same time they are perhaps too over-cautious. I take it that if the members of this board do not agree we will have a majority decision and I think it would be a good thing to have in addition to the two civil servants one member who is not a civil servant.

I hope the Minister will make the Fíor-Ghaeltacht his chief concern. I would ask him not to allow himself to be influenced too much by the views of people in Dublin, Cork, or even Galway who claim that they speak on behalf of the people in the Gaeltacht. I would ask him to acquaint himself personally with the viewpoint of the people of those areas in relation to this particular matter. I can assure the Minister that from my own experience I know the people do not want to be treated as museum pieces.

I remember being in Galway a number of years ago and hearing a tourist complaining bitterly because the picturesque Claddagh was being torn down. What an outrage. Of course the good lady never had to live in one of the cabins in the Claddagh. If she had she might have been very pleased to get better accommodation. There is too much of that sentimental romanticism.

Tourism has been mentioned by one of the members of this House who made a very interesting contribution to the debate. If the Minister were to start to-morrow to develop tourism in the Gaeltacht, then he would get it in the neck. He would be told he was a shoneen. He would be told he was setting out deliberately to destroy the language. What will he do? Every single thing that has ever been suggested has been decried by those who profess to speak on behalf of the Gaeltacht.

I urge the Minister now to go ahead and do whatever work he intends to do despite the criticism. He will earn the gratitude of the people of the Gaeltacht. But he will do more than that: he will preserve the Gaeltacht.

I am somewhat surprised to find myself in almost entire agreement with the views expressed by Senator Hartnett in relation to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. I want to refer in particular to the attitude of the Minister and those advising him towards the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. A number of speakers apparently believe that this Bill is intended to benefit the Gaeltacht. It will do nothing of the kind. The Minister made it quite clear in the Dáil that he had inquired into the possible effect of the implementation of this Bill in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas and that as far as he was concerned he intended to keep out of those areas. He will not put so much as a back-room factory in any of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas.

I think the best way in which to preserve the Irish language and the Fíor-Ghaeltacht is to go into these areas and try to make the standard of living of the people there more attractive but, as far as the Minister is concerned, the approach of this Bill is quite the reverse. The people in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht are being treated as if they were untouchables and as if there were something wrong nationally in endeavouring to assist them under a Bill of this sort.

I find myself out of step with the majority of Senators in their outlook on this Bill. I do not share the general enthusiasm. I do not accuse the Minister of overpainting the picture. He did not do that. If too many rosy promises have been made and too much colour has been put upon the canvas, that has not been done by the Minister.

I think most people so far have exaggerated the importance of this Bill. We are proposing, over a period of seven years, to spend £2,000,000 on certain areas which are classified as undeveloped. Two million pounds of State assistance will not industrialise the West of Ireland; £20,000,000 would not do that.

I accept this Bill but I do so with grave doubts and misgivings. I am not satisfied that this is the proper approach. I am not against the spending of money in these undeveloped areas. I would not oppose spending ten times the present sum but, speaking personally, I am not in favour of the idea of industrialising these areas even in a small way. I do not think that is the correct approach.

Senator Hartnett referred to tourism in the Gaeltacht areas and I agree with what he said. If the present Minister or any Minister endeavours to build up the tourist industry, with particular reference to the Gaeltacht, there would inevitably be a certain amount of criticism. People would talk about anglicisation and all the rest of it. So far as overseas tourists are concerned, and particularly the American tourists, the main attraction is to the western seaboard and the Gaeltacht areas of Galway, Donegal and Kerry. The reason for that is because of the angling facilities in these areas. I think it would be a more sensible approach if we spent money on developing the attractions that are already there, such as fishing, rather than spend and possibly waste money on endeavouring to establish industries which, I believe, will never have a reasonable chance of success because of the economic factors involved.

Business suspended at 6 o'clock and resumed at 7 o'clock.

I said earlier that I do not share the general enthusiasm for this Bill, and I want to repeat that statement. I gave some indication earlier of some of my reasons for not being able to work up enthusiasm, to the same extent as some members of this House and some members of the other House, for the Bill. I do not want, towards the end of a debate which, generally speaking, has been a friendly type of debate—the Bill has received a welcome with different degrees of warmth—to raise controversial issues, but I do feel that I am entitled to record the objection which I have to this Bill. I consider that I am entitled to voice it here. That is, if you like, a political objection.

I am quite satisfied that this Bill was planned, designed, moulded and cast into form by the Government with one eye on the results of the last general election, and the other eye fixed on the forthcoming general election. The significance of the areas which are, under the Bill, designated as undeveloped areas is too great to be lost sight of, and I think that we, at any rate, should record the fact in this debate that each and every one of the so-called undeveloped areas—perhaps "so-called" is not the correct expression—but the undeveloped areas so designated by this Bill, are areas in which the Government Party lost seats in the last general election. It seems to me that that in itself is not a reason why I should object to the Bill other than by making reference to the fact and recording my opinion regarding it. I do not intend to develop that particular theme, but I think it is clear that this Bill is intended to condition these particular areas for the forthcoming general election. In so far as that is the object of the Bill, I am not at all sure that it is going to be successful. As Senator Hayes has said, even granting that there is political planning behind the Bill, it is the kind of Bill where, if one gains on the political swings, one may very well lose on the political roundabouts. However, I believe that is the real purpose of the Bill.

The Bill is called the Undeveloped Areas Bill. Senator Tunney suggested that it should have been called the Neglected Areas Bill. Having regard to the views which I hold as to the reason why the Bill is introduced, I suggest that the most appropriate name for the Bill would the Unconditioned Areas Bill. However, as I have said, I do not propose to object seriously to the Bill on those grounds. I think the Government are entitled, if they feel that it is good politics, to have regard to the political effects of legislation such as this, but what we are concerned with is as to whether or not the legislation which is proposed is likely to achieve some lasting good for the areas affected by it. It is there that I have my most serious doubts regarding this Bill.

A lot of money is going to be expended. I have said already, and I repeat it, that I have no objection to the spending of that money, and would not object if more money were spent in the particular areas marked out in the Bill. Still less would I have an objection if a serious effort were being made by means of this Bill, or any other Bill, whether introduced by the present Minister or by a Minister in another Government, to the spending of even vaster sums of money for the proper development of the Gaeltacht. areas. This Bill is not intended to benefit Gaeltacht areas as such. An Seabhach rather emphasised that point, and rightly so. I do not claim to be as fluent in the native tongue as he is, but I followed him fairly closely and I do not think I am misinterpreting him when I say that he pointed out the fact, and it is a fact, that this Bill is not a Gaeltacht Bill and that it is not intended as such. It is meant for areas, whether or not they happen to include portions of the Gaeltacht. This measure is intended to be devoted solely to industrial enterprises in undeveloped areas.

Various suggestions, many of which appeal to me, have been made by different speakers here yesterday and to-day as to other methods for utilising the money to be supplied by the Oireachtas for the undeveloped areas. I feel that the Government would be far better advised to consider the utilisation of the sum of £2,000,000, or more, in the ways suggested by the various speakers—ways which are not included in this Bill. However, in so far as they are not included in the Bill, I take it that we are not strictly in order in referring to them. I feel the general approach to the problem is not a correct one, but, nevertheless, I join with other Senators in welcoming the fact that some approach is being made. I want to emphasise the fact, which I have already mentioned, that this Bill is not intended for the benefit of Gaeltacht areas as such. The fact that some portion of the Gaeltacht will, we hope, benefit under this measure is merely incidental to it. The Minister, when concluding, will readily agree with this, I feel sure. In particular, it seems quite clear to me, as a result of the discussion in the Dáil, that the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas will not benefit at all. The Minister for Industry and Commerce made that clear in the Dáil and in so far as that is so, I feel that there is a great amount of weakness in this Bill. Other Senators have pointed out that in the undeveloped areas, the congested areas as they are described in this Bill, the areas most deserving of special attention are the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas. It appears to me that the sum of £2,000,000 which is to be expended, as a result of this Bill, over a period of seven years will not be used in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas at all. The Minister stated in the Dáil that he had discussed the matter with Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge. I do not recollect whether they said they were in agreement with his views or that he said he was in agreement with their views that industries should not be established in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas because of the danger of anglicisation. I do not agree with that. It seems to me that the arguments put forward here earlier this evening by Senator Hartnett were the strong and correct ones. Although I am leaving myself open to the obvious retort from the Minister, I feel that even the Gaeltacht glasshouse scheme was preferable to what is proposed under this measure.

The Minister said, when he was replying on the Second Reading debate on this Bill in the Dáil, that he did not admit the principle that the Government owed any greater obligation to one area or one section of the people rather than another. Senator O'Brien quoted him and, apparently, agreed with him. On that general question of the principle, the Minister might, possibly, be correct although I do not believe so, and I am inclined to disagree with both himself and Senator O'Brien on this matter. The whole pattern of our social legislation in this country shows that the Government owes a particular obligation to the weaker and more needy sections in our community, and the mere fact that a Bill of this sort is introduced shows that even the present Government considers that they have a special responsibility towards what are now to be known as the undeveloped areas. To use a counter-distinction, I am sure the people in what might be termed the developed areas are not going to bear any grudge against the Minister or against the Government because they decide on paying special attention to the undeveloped areas.

Those of us who do not reside in the undeveloped areas are entitled, in so far as we can, to look into the future and to visualise what the consequences will be to the consumer, say, in Dublin of the legislation which we are now in process of enacting. If industries are developed, especially in the undeveloped areas, as a result of this Bill, it seems to me that we are going to run up against a danger quite apart from the danger pointed out by Senator O'Brien, which might result from this legislation or from similar legislation which may have to be enacted seven years hence in order to continue the assistance which it is now proposed to give. Senator O'Brien said the undeveloped areas are, what one may term, high-cost areas because of the additional cost involved in producing articles in them, and that the subsequent high retail cost to the consumer in Dublin, Cork, Limerick or elsewhere, would be proportionately higher.

Remember the principle which the Minister wants enshrined in the operation of this Bill is that financial assistance will be provided at the start and that the industry must, thereafter, stand on its own feet. If the produce was going to be subsidised in years to come, it might be argued that because of State subsidy the produce of factories established in the undeveloped areas was not going to be substantially higher than the cost of production, say, in Dublin City or on the fringes of Dublin. Assuming the Minister's intentions are carried into effect and that assistance is given at the start to factories which will be then left to rely on themselves, there will be high transport charges from the West of Ireland to places like Dublin, and various other overheads of one kind or another which will all add up towards increasing the price of an article to the consumer east of the Shannon. We have got to recognise what we are approving under this Bill. I can only give my qualified approval to the measure. There are further dangers in store for the areas about to be developed. Deputies have pointed some of them out and Senators have adverted to others. If light industries are established as a result of this legislation we are not taking any effective steps towards stopping emigration. The content of female labour in light industries, such as the textile industry, will be very high as against male labour. In fact, the number of female employees will probably outnumber the male employees very considerably.

That means that in most cases it is the wife or the daughter in the household who will be eligible for employment, not the head of the household, the father, who should be the breadwinner. He will find himself in the position either of being content to depend on the earnings of his wife or daughter or else he will emigrate, whether it is seasonal emigration or full emigration, in the same manner as he has done heretofore. That is one of the weaknesses which will exist under this Bill and I would like if the Minister could reassure me to some extent, in regard to that particular point.

I have another very grave objection to the Bill. It is probably a matter which is more proper for consideration on the Committee Stage and I hope to deal with it in more detail then, and that is with regard to Section 3 of the Bill. Other Senators have pointed out that it is undesirable that power should be given to any Minister to extend the scope of legislation such as this by Order. I agree with that objection. It is very undesirable that the Minister should be empowered by Order to include other areas under this Bill. It may be contended that no person who attains the responsibility of holding a ministerial post will so demean himself as to abuse a power such as that— and I do not want any remarks I make to be taken as reflecting on the present Minister or any of his predecessors—but it is clear that that type of section in a Bill such as this does open the door for political corruption. It gives the Minister the power, if he wants, for political reasons, to favour one area as against another, to do so because it is politically important to favour that area, because there is a by-election pending or something of that sort. It gives him power, by Order, to designate that area, a congested area, an undeveloped area, to which this Bill may apply and into which public money may be poured for the purpose of creating employment by the establishment of industries.

I know that that objection can possibly be countered by the Minister saying: "But it will not be any concern of mine. I am setting up a board under this Bill and when the board is established it is a matter for the board to decide the type of industry and to decide where the money will go." It may be that that answer is a sufficient answer. It does not satisfy me at the moment without further consideration and it is a matter which will have to be considered in more detail in Committee.

I agree with the criticisms made by Senator McHugh and Senator P.F. O'Reilly regarding the acquisition sections in the Bill. I think again that we might consider that in more detail in Committee but I do not think that we should blind ourselves to the fact that the acquisition sections in this Bill are being operated under a British Act of 1919. Generally speaking, I consider that the machinery under that Act is not unfair and I am aware of the fact that many of the public boards who have powers of compulsory acquisition are operating under the powers in that Act. But I do believe that there are flaws. That Act was passed in the year 1919. We are now entering on the year 1952 and it is time we looked again at the 1919 Act to see if it could be improved.

One of the matters that comes to my mind in relation to it is this. The 1919 Act specifically excludes the arbitrator from taking into account or making any allowance on account of the fact that the land is being compulsorily acquired. I think that is wrong. I think an arbitrator should be entitled to have regard to the fact that the acquisition is being done compulsorily and that the person whose property is being acquired does not want to sell and might want to finish out his life on that piece of property where, possibly, his father and grandfather before him have lived. The Act to which we are pegging ourselves in this Bill provides that no allowance can be made on the score that the acquisition is compulsory but that, on the other hand, the arbitrator must act on the assumption that the vendor, the person whose property is being acquired, is a willing seller. I think that is wrong, and that the Act of 1919 should be amended.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

On a point of order, I am beginning to think that we are discussing a measure in regard to compulsory acquisition and I wonder if the Senator is to be allowed to continue for a long period along those lines.

I do not intend to go on for a long period but, unlike Senator O'Reilly, I have read this Bill and under this Bill it is provided that in default of agreement, where land is being compulsorily acquired by the board, the price will be fixed in accordance with the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919. It is clear that we have a duty, if we are to give proper consideration to this Bill, to consider even matters which are hidden under a high sounding name, such as "Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919."

Mr. P. O'Reilly

It is a matter for the Chair to decide as to whether the scope of the debate really admits of discussing that Act in connection with the Bill before us.

Senator O'Higgins.

I certainly do not want to usurp the authority of the Chair but I understand when there is a Bill before us which contains reference to another Bill in a vital matter, that it is proper to consider it. Obviously it can be considered because again it is a matter that can be dealt with by amendments on the Committee Stage.

Another portion of the Bill I object to is that portion which gives the board power to purchase from the Irish Land Commission. I see there the possibility of trouble between the board and the Land Commission. Possibly it will never arise but under the terms of the Bill, as it is framed at the moment, it seems to me that this board, when it is established, will have a right to say to the Land Commission: "We want that land," whatever the land may be, and that the Land Commission will have no option but to surrender it. We all know that when the Land Commission acquires land it does so for a specific purpose and it seems to me that the purposes for which the Land Commission acquire land are of paramount importance, particularly in the areas which will be affected by this Bill, the areas west of the Shannon, where it is necessary to relieve congestion, and so on. The board which it is proposed to establish under this Bill can play havoc with the plans and the schemes of the Land Commission should it decide to do so. Possibly that danger will not arise, but it is a danger that does exist. I believe there should be some kind of departmental or inter-departmental machinery set up, not necessarily within the framework of this Bill, in order to ensure that in the event of any argument or dispute as between the board and the Land Commission some responsible officer or Minister, if necessary, should be the adjudicator.

I do not want to delay the House longer but I should like to finish by saying that I do not believe the principle of giving State assistance to particular industries, which may be in competition with industries already established, is a sound one. There was very grave objection taken in Dublin City some years ago to the idea of a producer-consumer market being established by the corporation and being assisted, even in a minor way, by the corporation. Although I at first favoured the idea of a producer-consumer market, I was influenced to change my views, but I think I was right in doing so, by the argument put up by some councillors in the Dublin Corporation that it was morally wrong to use money collected from the ratepayers for the purpose of setting up a market such as that, which was going to be in direct competition with people who had contributed rates to the corporation.

I think that something very like that principle is being enshrined in the Bill. I think it is quite possible under this Bill to make a levy in the form of taxes on the taxpayer to provide the moneys necessary under this Bill and that in some cases the taxpayer, who is paying that money, will find his money used for the purpose of assisting a competitor of his. I do not think that is right; I think there is something wrong about it. That is possibly an individual view. I am however, prepared to take the risk with other members of the House that there may be cases where State money can be used even to the detriment of competitors in a particular trade but I do not think the principle should be encouraged. I think the money could be used to far greater effect in a variety of other ways. However, like other Senators, I am very glad that something is being done. I hope that I am wrong and that this Bill will meet with much greater success than I am inclined to believe it will. If that happens, the Minister has time and again stated that he is very keenly aware of the political consequences of legislation which he fathers. If the Bill is a success, if it achieves what the Minister hopes it will achieve, I shall have no hesitation in standing up here, if I am still a member of this House, to congratulate him on that.

After the lengthy debate to which we have listened for the past two days, I think I would not be justified in inflicting another lengthy speech on the Seanad in regard to this subject. I should like to say, however, that I am pleased at the reception generally given to the Bill from all sides of the House. It has, on the whole, been well received and the Minister has been congratulated even by those who, perhaps, might normally be inclined to take a different point of view. It has been well received save by a few blinded by political prejudice who cannot take a normal view of anything done by the Minister or by any of his colleagues. However, I think we can afford in the circumstances to ignore these few having regard to the reception given to the Bill by everybody else in the House.

As the Minister pointed out, this is no easy problem. It is a big job and it will need the help and co-operation which everybody concerned would be normally expected to give, especially on the part of those in the towns adjacent to, and perhaps inside, the congested districts. Incidentally in passing I might remark—as several speakers have made the allegation that this Bill was drafted to deal with certain areas for political motives—that I remember seeing maps of the congested districts and, so far as my memory serves me, the areas mentioned in the Bill are those included in the old congested districts. So far as my native county was concerned, it was made a horseshoe of in the passing of that Act, due to the influence of a certain noble lord who moved an amendment in the House of Lords to exclude certain electoral divisions in County Clare where his property was situate. However, that is beside the question.

I am pleased that this attempt is being made first and foremost to decentralise industry. Everybody who thinks nationally deplores the fact that all our industrial activities have been, more or less, centred in and around the City of Dublin and a few large towns in the immediate hinterland, particularly along the east coast. Dublin is becoming perhaps another Glasgow. I think a similar situation has occurred in Austria where one large city, Vienna, contains approximately one-third of the entire population of the country. Nobody wishes to see the City of Dublin grow and expand at the expense of the rest of the country. This Bill will, in my opinion, help at least to develop industries along the western seaboard where employment is so badly needed. I should like to state, despite the difficulties to which the Minister has referred and of which we are all aware, that in the setting up of industries in these districts I take an optimistic view. The attitude of the few pessimists who spoke against the Bill reminds me very much of the story of the two old bachelors who were comparing, one with the other, as to which of them should get married. Finally it was determined that the younger man should take the plunge but he escaped by saying that the cross-wall might fall on the child. So it was with these pessimists who found all the reasons in the world why this Bill should not be implemented.

I should like to ask these Senators what is the alternative to the Bill. It is time that serious steps were taken to try, as far as we possibly can, to develop industries in these areas. I would suggest to the Minister that these industries should, as far as possible, be based on local materials where such are available. Despite the general impression that seems to prevail, there are local materials available, even for large industries. In the county which I know best, we have, for instance, one of the most extensive deposits of limestone in the whole of Europe— mountains of it. From that I understand it is possible to manufacture nitro-chalk, for which there is, and would be, a large demand in this country as a fertiliser.

I understand it is being manufactured in England. I hope to see, in the near future, that it will also be manufactured here. I understand that our requirements will run into anything from 100,000 to 200,000 tons annually. At its present price that would afford a very large turnover to any company operating in the manufacture of nitrochalk. There is also, of course, the question of ground limestone as a kindred industry. We have also another industry of the same nature in the same locality. Its extent, perhaps, may be limited. I am thinking in terms of phosphates. At the present price it might be an economic proposition to operate the phosphate mines in North Clare. While on that subject, I would like to mention the fact that there are other minerals in Clare. I do not know to what extent, but perhaps a geological survey of the area would give us the necessary information. I have often heard that one of the richest deposits of silver ever taken out of the bowels of the earth was obtained five or six miles south of Ennis in the parish of Quin. Perhaps that may be a lone pocket, but it is worthy of exploration. As I understand it, silver mines in a neighbouring county are being operated profitably at the present time. I hope that, in the near future, an attempt will be made to exploit that situation and see what can be done in County Clare.

As well as those industries, there are other smaller industries. They are industries of a nature that would be, perhaps, more within the knowledge of the people, such as seed potato-growing as well as the growing of early potatoes. In addition, there is the manufacture of several commodities from marine products.

Reference has been made to lack of tradition in these areas. I would regard that, by the way, as a myth. After all, several industries have already been established all along the western seaboard. Operatives had to be trained. They were found to be highly intelligent and in a very short time became very skilful. I do not think that the suggestion that there is a lack of tradition in these areas should deter any would-be manufacturer from making an attempt to establish an industry along the western seaboard.

In passing, I should like to refute the allegation made by a Senator casting a reflection on what he describes as the migrants from Connaught. I do not come from Connaught but I come from an area across the Shannon. These migrants have made good as anybody who takes the trouble to find out can verify. The migrants are not confined to Connaught alone. You have migrants from Kerry, Donegal, and from all along the western seaboard. All of them have made good and if there happens to be a few black sheep amongst them that cannot be helped. If a few of them take a drink, all cannot be blamed. I think it is a terrible thing to slander the entire race of people along the western seaboard and make out they were all criminals and blackguards. It is a shame that such a statement should be made in the Parliament of the nation.

Let me return to the Bill. Money is available in every one of the western counties—plenty of it. It can be obtained from the people, many of whom earned it in what have been described as the good old days. They invested it in, perhaps, Malaya, Jamaica or Timbuctoo simply because the shares were given a good "puff" paragraph in the financial newspapers. I hope that some of these people will be given an opportunity of investing at home. Some of these people may be a bit wary due, perhaps, to lack of the necessary technical knowledge. I hope that under this Bill machinery will be provided that will instruct people with shares to invest in the West. I know that in two principal towns in Clare—Ennis and Kilrush— there is a good deal of money which could be made available, provided a reasonably sound proposition was made to the people there. These people have not had the experience of establishing industries and they would require technical advice before they would part with their money. They are no fools. They are business people. If a sound proposition is put before them, I am optimistic enough to believe that the money will be forthcoming. For that reason, I wish the Minister every success in implementing this Bill.

Some people have expressed fears that this board of three will be confined exclusively to civil servants. Other people have expressed the hope that at least two civil servants might be assigned to it. I have an open mind on the matter. I know that in the Civil Service you have some of the ablest brains, perhaps, in the nation. One or two could be found—and in this respect the Minister need not go beyond his own Department and no one knows better than he does their capabilities—who would be fully capable of acting on this board. I would like to see included on the board a man of wide business experience, if possible. It may not be so easy to get a man of that capacity who would be prepared to face up to the work and trouble which such a position would entail. I promised, when starting, that I would not delay the House and I will keep my word.

It would be ungracious of me if I did not begin by expressing appreciation of the manner in which this Bill has been received by the Seanad, even if some of the more political-minded Senators on my right, applying tests which are exclusive to themselves, cast doubt upon the sincerity of the Government's motives in framing the Bill. The great majority of those who took part in the debate accepted, with or without qualification, the two contentions upon which I stated the case for the Bill rests, firstly, that it is in the national interest that the concentration of industry in the eastern part of the country should be checked and that industrial development west of the Shannon should be promoted, and, secondly, that if that result is to be secured, special measures are required. The debate ranged over the problems of the congested districts generally and produced some suggestions which, if not relevant to the Bill are, nevertheless, worthy of consideration. I do not propose to deal with these suggestions now. I think, however, that it is desirable to restate that this Bill is not intended to be a comprehensive plan for the solution of all the social and economic problems of the West of Ireland.

It is intended to help towards the reduction of these problems. It may not even prove to be the most significant contribution that can be made to that end. Its enactment will not mean that other schemes for economic development or social improvements west of the Shannon need be delayed in the least. Many Senators expressed doubts as to whether the Bill will be efficacious. I find myself in the position that I cannot meet these doubts by any proof that anything will result from its enactment. I believe benefits will come. That belief is based upon personal knowledge of the circumstances which occasionally induce people to locate industrial enterprises in the East when they might have gone to the West, and from information which I have gathered concerning the attitude of some people who are thinking of industrial development in the future when the matter of location is raised with them.

Senator Professor Hayes stated that, in his view, it will be necessary to do something more than to level up competitive opportunities if industrial development in the West is to result from this measure, and I think Senator Yeats supported that view. That may be so but I should like Senators to appreciate also the significance of the fears that were expressed by Senator Loughman and Senator Douglas that the aid given under this Bill might result in the creation of unfair competition with industries already established by private enterprise, and without similar aid in other parts of the country.

It is not going to be an easy matter to decide in any particular instance the measure of help required to secure that some proposal for the establishment of a factory in the West will be proceeded with—and, at the same time, not to put it into a position which would be so strong in competition with existing industries elsewhere as to be unfair to them. I think we have to leave these issues to be settled by the judgment of the members of An Foras Tionscal, when established. It is, however, desirable to point out, in answer to the argument put forward by Senator Professor Hayes that the mere levelling up of competitive advantages will not be enough, that some industrial development west of the Shannon has already occurred with no greater aid from the State than would have been available if other locations had been chosen.

It is true that there are some industries which would be so unsuitable for a western location that no aid or assistance that could be given would result in their establishment there by private enterprise. It is wrong, I think, to jump to the conclusion that the location of an industry in the West involves nothing but disadvantages. I do not think that is the case. We may not get as a result of this measure a decision by existing industrial firms to lift their present factories and transfer them to the West of Ireland, as Senator Summerfield seemed to think. Nevertheless, I believe that when particular plans and ideas are under discussion with individual promoters in the Department of Industry and Commerce the existence of this aid will be a substantial lever which can be used to get development in the West rather than in the East.

Arising out of what Senator O'Donnell said as to the possibility of the power given to the board under this Bill being used in a manner that would be unfair to those who are already established in industrial activity in the West, I should like to repeat what I said when introducing the Bill, i.e., that the help given will be measured in relation to the competitive disadvantage, if any, of the location chosen. The Senator will appreciate that I am not saying this for the purpose of making any personal reference—I would not agree, if I had any responsibility in the making of these decisions, that a shirt factory in Donegal would be at any competitive disadvantage whatsoever. I think experience has shown that there is such a high degree of skill amongst the people who work in that industry in Donegal, that location there confers a competitive advantage. Similarly, a proposal to put up a hat factory in Mayo or an elastic factory in Ennis, or any other proposal of that kind, which would mean repeating what has already been done by private enterprise without such aid, would not in my view, qualify for any special help. I do not want to leave the Seanad under the impression that I will be able to veto or even to influence the decisions of An Foras Tionscal when it is functioning. I have the intention of directing its attention to these remarks which I have made both in the Dáil and here as to how the Government wishes the board to function. To attempt to create safeguards for existing industries would, however, be impracticable and involve dangers. I have emphasised that the desire is to deal with those who may undertake industrial development in the West upon the basis of giving them at the beginning all the help they are going to get and then leaving them as free of Government supervision or regulation as any other industrial concern. If that is to be the position then obviously we cannot attach conditions to the giving of aid if it involves some continuing supervision of the concern to ensure that these conditions are kept.

I have said already that a firm which got aid under the Bill and found it was losing money would be free to close down. I think I should say that a firm that got aid under this Bill on the understanding that it was going to establish an industry of a particular kind—say the manufacture of tin tacks—and then found that there was a slump in those goods, would be free to turn over to the making of carpets or anything else for which its equipment would be suitable. Therefore, no undertaking that could be given that the board would not give aid to a concern that was going to enter into an industry already catered for by existing concerns would be of much use if we are to try to maintain a position that, once it starts, it is free of any Government supervision and of obligation to report to An Foras Tionscal or any Government Department on what it is doing to any greater degree than any existing industry would be.

All the difficulties that have been mentioned—the danger of establishing with State aid unfair competition with existing industries, the danger of prejudicing the future development of some existing concern, the difficulties there will be in assessing the amount of aid to give in any individual case— might suggest that it would be wiser to leave the industrial development of the West to regulate itself and not to try to stimulate it in the way proposed in this Bill. I should like Senators to appreciate the significance of a remark made, I think, by Senator Burke that efforts to decentralise industry are less likely to succeed the longer we postpone them. The concentration of industrial and commercial activities in the East of Ireland tends to attract new industrial and commercial activities to the East also and has the effect of increasing the disadvantages of a western location and of making more uneconomic the maintenance of public services like transport or the facilities normally provided by public authorities.

Senator George O'Brien expressed the view that industries in the West of Ireland will always need support, or at any rate will never develop of their own strength so as to remove the necessity for continuing support if national policy continues to desire some check upon the depopulation of these areas. I do not quite agree with that. I do not profess to have any strong view as to how things are likely to develop, but I do believe that if we can get any measure of economic prosperity into the western part of the country either by reason of industrial development or a combination of industrial development with other measures which the Government might take, the disadvantages which industries suffer in a western location will tend to be reduced. I think that Senator Professor Johnston had the right of the argument when he said that if the initial friction which checks industrial development in the West at present is overcome then the further development of industry there will tend to facilitate the general improvement of conditions there later.

Senator George O'Brien was, I think, the only member of the House who questioned the soundness of the contention that it is in the national interest to take positive measures to promote industrial activity west of the Shannon. He said that artificial interference with the free flow of population within the national boundaries is undesirable, that the redistribution of population may be a sign of progress, and argued from the general position that the economic organisation which results from the unregulated activities of private enterprise is always best.

I do not want to misrepresent Senator O'Brien's arguments in any way but I think that it would not be an unfair paraphrase of his remarks to add that, having made these assertions, he said that anyone who disagreed with him had upon him the onus of proving that he was wrong. I do not think that Senator O'Brien made any serious effort to prove that he was right. I wonder is it true that it is undesirable to check an internal shift of population which seems likely prima facie to create unnecessary and avoidable social and economic problems. I wonder is it true that a redistribution of population is a sign of progress. I do not profess to be familiar with the history of the world but, from what little knowledge I have of it, I would think that the migrations of populations which are recorded in history were the outcome of economic depression rather than economic progress. I wonder also if it is true that the economic organisation, the industrial pattern, which results from the haphazard decisions of a number of unconnected individuals is always best. Those of us who do not share Senator O'Brien's simple faith believe that if a comparatively small push by a public authority can put progress on sounder lines than those on which it appears to be moving, then such a push now and again will do no real harm.

The shift of population from the West to the East is creating problems in the East as well as in the west. It is, I think, true to say that in the West of Ireland the tendency is to emigrate rather than to migrate and that any lack of opportunity of employment or any dissatisfaction with the nature of the employments there produced in individuals the desire to try their chances in other countries rather than to seek employment in other parts of this country, but to the extent that there has been a shift of population in the literal sense of that term from the West to the East we must recognise that it has contributed to the housing shortage in Dublin and in other eastern towns, the overcrowding of hospitals and other problems with which the public authorities here in the East are contending. If we take these things into account and also the wastage of capital in the West represented by disused and abandoned railway lines, disused and abandoned harbour works, empty stores and other structures of that character, I wonder is it still true that it would be cheaper to build new factories in the East and bring the workers to them than to build factories in the West where the workers are.

It is, of course, true, as Senator O'Brien said, that it is desirable that the burdens which a protectionist policy inevitably imposes for a period on the community should be minimised, but I think that it is begging the question to conclude that the desire to minimise those burdens means also that the Government must be indifferent to the form which industrial development is taking or should not try to interfere with or influence the location of that development.

There are advantages which are of both a social and an economic character in locating factories in smaller towns. This is a subject in which I am personally very interested and one upon which I had the opportunity of getting some first-hand knowledge during the past three years. I was associated with industrial concerns of different characters, industrial concerns located in the city, in country towns and in rural areas, and I was very much impressed by the advantage which a concern in a country town or rural area has over a concern in the city in the very difficult field of employer-worker relationship. Many of the problems of industrial management—and nowadays these problems nearly all tie up with the question of relationship with staff—are very much simpler in the atmosphere of a country town or rural area than they are in the city. A far more intimate relationship is possible between management and staff and a happier atmosphere can be more easily created than is possible in less personal conditions of the larger cities. These advantages are, I think, realised by many employers and the realisation of them is growing. I would say for myself that if ever I was concerned with the establishment of a new industry, then, unless the material advantages of location in Dublin, Cork or some other large port town were very considerable indeed, I would select or urge the selection of a location in some smaller town preferably one in which there was no industry already, where the new concern would be the largest employer and where its survival would be the concern not merely of the management and the employees but of every resident in the locality. The shift out of Dublin which Senator O'Brien said may come because Dublin is a high-cost area may, indeed, develop, and we think it would be a good thing if it did develop, but personally I do not see any reason why we should not try to give it a push on its way.

Senator O'Brien was on sounder ground when he argued that political considerations may make it difficult to follow the course that I have outlined of giving these new industries west of the Shannon an initial advantage and then leaving them on their own. I realise fully that any industry with the establishment of which the Government is associated, particularly any industry for the establishment of which it takes political credit, will not be allowed to fail; at least, there will be an effort made to justify the whole policy of industrial decentralisation, but I do not think that necessarily means that the failure of an individual concern, where that failure is due to bad management or other causes of that character, will necessarily involve such problems for the Government that it must rush in with further public funds in order to avert it.

Senator Johnston was on a different line from Senator O'Brien and if I argue against Senator O'Brien that national policy requires that we should not leave matters of this kind entirely to the unregulated activities of private enterprise, but should try to influence their course, I want to argue otherwise against Senator Johnston because he seeks to have the Government go much too far, in my view, in attempting to direct the course of events.

All my life I have been contesting the wisdom of planning to kill two birds with the one stone. Both in the secrecy of Cabinet discussions and in public debates I have always argued in favour of concentrating upon one bird at a time, and I think Senator Johnston is seeking to put an impossible task on the shoulders of Foras Tionscal when he asks them, over and above their work of examining the merits of individual industrial propositions submitted to it, to have regard to the economic foundation of the social and economic organisations which will favour Gaelic culture, in which Gaelic culture and civilisation may survive.

There is no doubt that it is desirable that there should exist in the West of Ireland an economic organisation in which Gaelic culture and civilisation could survive, but I do not think it is a task to be given to Foras Tionscal. Their limited functions will not necessarily conflict with that aim but, certainly, if we were to try to widen them so as to include that aim, we would take the risk of their ending in futility.

Senator Johnston also asked that Foras Tionscal should have regard to the desirability of integrating industrial development with all other economic activities in the area—agriculture, industry, afforestation, tourism, and so forth. I am not quite sure what that means. I think that within certain limits private enterprise will do best if left to itself.

Senator O'Higgins, a few months ago, expressed the view that no industry in the West could hope to develop an export trade. I referred already to a factory in Mayo which was established by private enterprise, and which during the present year has exported more than half its total output to countries on the continent of Europe.

I am quite certain of this, that if any committee of the Dáil or group of experts had been asked to advise upon the desirability of locating that industry in Castlebar, they would have said, "No; it was the wrong place to put it," but private enterprise has a way of doing these things, of producing quite unexpected results, whether because of a more accurate assessment by a group of individuals of the potentialities of a particular locality or, perhaps, because of their capacity to secure expert management. I think that it is far wiser to try to turn progress in a desired direction, and then let private enterprise poke out for itself the particular channels along which it will seek to go.

In the last analysis, nothing will happen under this Bill except individuals or groups of individuals are prepared to take a risk with their own money based upon their faith in their ability to make some industry go. If there is no such individual or group prepared to undertake industrial development west of the Shannon, then nothing at all will follow the enactment of this Bill. It is in the belief that, given the added help which is promised here that such individuals and groups will be forthcoming that we base our expectations of some benefits following from it. But, as to what particular industrial projects may be submitted to Foras Tionscal for decision, it is rather foolish now to be attempting to make forecasts. None of us could feel that we know enough about the industrial potentialities of the West to be dogmatic on that subject and I think we will find that some of the developments which groups or private individuals think they can undertake will be such as we ourselves would not have regarded initially as practicable.

There is one further general question which was raised in the debate to which I would like to make some reference. Senator Johnston said that the limiting factor to agricultural production is the scarcity of labour, especially during busy seasons of agriculture and Senator Baxter urged that we should not create further disequilibrium in the nation's economy by drawing labour from agriculture. With these viewpoints I have very considerable sympathy. I have already expressed in the Dáil my personal opinion that during the next ten or 20 years the terms of trade are going to move strongly in favour of primary producers, particularly producers of foodstuffs.

By that I mean the trend of prices is likely to favour primary producers and particularly agricultural producers. That being so, it is obvious that the future prosperity of this country is likely to depend to a far greater extent upon the development of agriculture than on the development of industry. But, when we talk about the danger of drawing labour from agriculture into industry and the undesirability of doing so, we have got to remember that the alternative available to agricultural labour is not merely industry in Ireland; there is the further alternative of industry in England and, if the conditions in agriculture are such that agriculture cannot hold the labour it requires, then we will not compel the retention of that labour in agriculture by shutting down or slowing down on industrial development here.

In any event, if that is to be a consideration, then it is only a further argument in favour of industrial development in the West because in the West it is possible to absorb into industrial employment a very considerable labour force without diminishing in the least the agricultural productivity in the area.

As I am dealing with the remarks of Senator Baxter, I should perhaps at this stage refer to the form of the Bill in connection with the definition of the area in which Foras Tionscal will have an interest in industrial development.

I have already explained that the Government had some difficulty in framing that section. We were anxious to make clear on the face of it that the purpose of the Bill was to get industries to the West, and at the same time we did not feel that we should take upon ourselves the onus of deciding just what parts of the West should benefit under it. We chose the definition of the congested areas which is in the 1909 Land Act because it was an existing definition, and one which was fairly well known. It is true that the original congested districts comprised a more restricted area which was decided on a rational basis—a calculation made relating total population in rural areas to the average valuation of those areas—and that in the 1909 Land Act the congested districts were extended on a far less understandable basis. Senator O'Grady has told us how a part of Clare which might have been included was left out, and a Longford Deputy said that Longford was left out because the two members of Parliament for Longford in 1909 could not agree whether it was to Longford's advantage that it should be included or not.

We were conscious of that unscientific basis chosen in the 1909 Act, and recognised that there are adjacent to the present congested districts, as defined in the Bill, other areas in which economic conditions are almost similar, and which certainly could claim to be just as entitled to aid towards industrial development as the congested districts. We did not want, however, to start a process of picking and choosing other areas, because we knew it would get us into difficulties. We decided that it was safer to base our Bill on the existing definition of the congested districts, a definition which has been there for nearly 50 years. At the same time we did not desire to exclude completely other areas which might conceivably have been included in the congested districts in 1909, or which should be included now.

I think it is far wiser to leave the Bill as it is with a section which says that it must apply to the congested districts and may apply to other areas. Senator O'Higgins, I gather, would remove from the Minister the power to extend the definition to include other districts. I do not think that would be wise or at least it would cause a certain amount of resentment in some areas which feel that they are as much entitled to help as the congested districts. On the other hand, if we were to attempt to make a new definition of undeveloped areas we would, I think, find it almost impossible to reach anything approaching agreement. I notice that Senator Baxter would not attempt to define West Cavan and, in fact, he tried to induce me to define it. I am not going to do it either, but I am quite certain that, if I brought in a definition of West Cavan, he would have considerable difficulty in resisting local pressure to add other townlands and parishes to the number I included and ultimately he would have to argue in favour of the inclusion of all Cavan, although there is a portion of East Cavan which promises to become one of the most highly industrialised parts of the country. If we included Cavan, I do not see how we could argue against the inclusion of Monaghan and ultimately we would find ourselves on the East coast with the Bill extending to the whole of Ireland. If any Senator can put forward a better proposal than the proposal in the Bill, I shall be prepared to consider it but I think it will be very difficult to do so.

Senator Ó Siocfhradha and Senator Yeats suggested that there should be a special board for the Gaeltacht areas. I am aware that there is a proposal, which has been submitted to the Government, that all State activities in the Fior-Ghaeltacht areas should be conducted through one central organisation, an organisation which would have explicit instructions to make the development of the Gaelic character of these areas and the survival of the language its predominant aim and to make the conduct of economic activities by it second to that. It will be obvious from various remarks made here, however, that that suggestion would be subjected to criticism. I do not want my view regarding the effect of this Bill upon the Gaeltacht areas and particularly the Fior-Ghaeltacht to be misunderstood or misrepresented.

Senator O'Higgins said that the intention is to keep out of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. That is not the intention. I have already pointed out that, as the Bill is framed, any proposition relating to industry in the Gaeltacht or Fíor-Ghaeltacht areas can be considered just as a proposition from any other part of the congested areas. I expressed the personal view that manufacturing industry by private enterprise, and particularly industry of a competitive character, is not likely to be attracted by the inducements given in the Bill into these isolated districts which constitute the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, and that if we are to get industrial development of these areas, industrial development based either upon some natural resources there or designed to develop some idea which can be kept exclusive to these areas, some idea that would not involve a competitive enterprise, we will have to do it at Government risk through a State organisation.

I did not suggest, when introducing the Bill, that the Government had in mind the creation of one organisation to explore these possibilities and to do whatever can be done. What I had in mind was that some specialised organisations would be set up for special purposes. There will be a proposition coming, as was announced in the Dáil, for the grass meal experiment in North Mayo, and that is the type of organisation I had in mind—a board or body set up to do a specific job which has been decided upon because it appears to be practicable in these localities and which will, if it proves successful, be of special benefit to them.

Many Senators referred to the desirability of developing turf production, power production, fisheries and the tourist business in the West. I do not propose to deal with these matters now because, in relation to all four of them, there will be legislation before the Oireachtas early in the New Year. I agree with the Senators who state that no matter how successful this Bill may be, agriculture will always be the main source of employment and the main basis of prosperity west of the Shannon. That is perfectly true. The case for seeking to promote industrial development there is that agriculture, unaided, will be unable to retain in that area the population developing there, and that, in any event, industrial development cannot possibly prejudice, and may help, the growth of agricultural prosperity also. The same applies to afforestation activities. To the extent that afforestation is practicable in the West—and that is a matter upon which expert opinion differs somewhat—it should be undertaken, but it does not really have any bearing on the purpose of this Bill.

Many Senators also spoke about the type of industries we should seek to develop. I think I have made it clear that the types of industry that will develop under this Bill are those industries which some individual or group of individuals think they can make a success there. I do not think that Foras Tionscal should exercise any function in deciding whether one industry rather than another is more suitable for the West. If they get sensible people risking their own resources, in command of the necessary technical knowledge, and prepared to back an industrial project, that should be good enough for them, and they should not insist that the industry will be designed to work local natural resources or to have any other particular characteristic.

Senator Stanford asked if the board would be concerned with the development of arts and crafts. If they can get a sound proposition for an industry to which that title would relate, I would say "yes" but whether it is the manufacture of Beleek china or flowerpots so long as it is likely to be a commercial success I think An Foras Tionscal should give it the necessary support.

Senator O'Higgins was critical of the possibility of industries being developed which would employ female labour. I completely disagree with his attitude. One of the main social problems in the West of Ireland is to find means of keeping the girls at home. I say there has been far more pronounced emigration of girls from the West than of men and that the emigration of girls is likely to have more serious consequences on the whole future of the race even than the emigration of men. If we can stop that emigration of girls from the West by having some industry that normally employs female labour I would not regard that as an undesirable development.

Many Senators referred to the powers of the board, some critically. When I mentioned the independence of the board I meant that the board's decisions are not subject to the veto of any Minister. I think that is desirable. The board gets the details of an industrial proposition, it meets the promoters, it examines the proposals in consultation with the promoters and I would say it is undesirable if, having done all that, and having come to a conclusion, some Minister either personally or through a civil servant in the Department of Industry and Commerce or the Department of Finance has to go all over it again in order to give approval. If we are going to put upon the Minister for Industry and Commerce or any other Minister the responsibility for approving of the board's decisions, then before he can accept that responsibility he must have power to repeat the investigation of the project which the board has made and the right to reject their recommendation. I think it is wiser to proceed as we are proceeding, to set up a board that will be financed by a Grant-in-Aid, given a sum of money to expend at its discretion and then tell them to get ahead with the task they were set up to do, in the knowledge that its effectiveness will be judged by the general results and not by decisions in individual cases.

Senator Burke objected to giving the board power to make grants without being subject to Finance veto. I disagree with that completely. In that connection, Senator Commons—supporting the argument that the Bill had mainly a political motive—visualised grants being in such a way as to produce a certain political result. I think that the best assurance that that will not happen is the creation of a board such as is contemplated here which can function without ministerial approval or sanction.

Reference was made to the proposal in the Bill relating to the remission of rates. One Senator urged that the Minister should have power to direct a local authority to grant the remission of rates in a particular case. That was Senator Kissane. I do not think that is wise. I think that local authorities will be glad to give a remission of rates in order to get industries started in their locality but if they are ordered to do it by a Minister there would be a local grievance and that, I think, we should avoid. Another Senator referred to the possibility of difficulty arising from the fact that while the board may exist only for seven years the remission of rates may exist for ten. The remission of rates is voluntarily given by a local authority and the decision is taken on their own initiative. The only thing we are doing in this Bill is to empower a local authority to grant that remission. It will not depend upon any certificate of An Foras Tionscal that the industry is continuing to function as originally designed.

There will be, of course, an annual report and the Bill gives the Minister power to prescribe the form the report will take. That seems to be the only arrangement by which the Oireachtas can get information as to how the board is functioning. If there were any anxiety in the minds of any Senators as to its methods of operation, the appropriate way of having the matter ventilated here would be to table a motion for the consideration of the report when published.

The board will be in the main of the type that I suggested. I do not think it desirable that we should attempt to include on it people who are engaged in industry. Reference was made to "Paddy the Cope" and to the late Mr. William Dwyer. For the work that both of these have done I have a very high regard. I think of "Paddy the Cope" as being something akin to a genius in his own field. The late Mr. William Dwyer was an industrial pioneer of considerable vision and energy. Yet I think both would have been a complete failure on this board. Their abilities were expressed in the direction of their own enterprises and they would not be of any use whatever merely in making judgment on the plans of others. It was their capacity to do things that got them ahead, whereas the type of person required on this board is somewhat different. In any event, apart altogether from the undesirability of having politicians on it and despite my dislike of the suggestion of the possibility of corruption which Senator O'Higgins made, I agree with him that no politicians should be on the board. There is the further difficulty that if we seek to include in its membership people actively engaged in industry, we never can be quite sure how far that person's industrial interests go. In any event, I would prefer to have these people who are engaged in industry as the instruments for getting industrial projects going rather than neutralise them by including them in the board's membership.

A number of other points raised are Committee Stage points and I propose not to refer to them now. I have expressed already appreciation of the manner in which the Seanad has received the Bill and I hope that we will be able to reach the same agreement on its details as we have recorded already on its general principles.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for January 9th, 1952.
Top
Share