Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 1953

Vol. 41 No. 8

Grass Meal (Production) Bill, 1952—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Parliamentary Secretary to the Government (Mr. Lynch)

This Bill is intended to supplement the measures taken by this Government and previous Governments to deal with the exceptional circumstances prevailing in the western areas. The necessity for such measures has been the subject of full debate in this House and in the Dáil during the consideration of previous legislation designed to eliminate, or at least to ameliorate the difficulties inevitably associated with the failure of industrial development in the western counties, to keep pace with such development elsewhere throughout the country. While I am sure that Senators do not need statistics to convince them that the western counties require our special attention, and that it is not necessary to relate again the full background against which the Bill is being considered, it is perhaps appropriate to refer to a number of the salient features of this background.

Remoteness from the main centres of consumption and the lack of indigenous raw material have combined to make industrial development in the western areas a matter of peculiar difficulty, and the fact is that in these areas the proportion of the population engaged in industrial employment is less than one-half of the proportion for the country as a whole. With the level of industrial employment thus significantly lower than elsewhere and with non-industrial employment insufficient to absorb the available labour force, emigration came to be traditionally regarded as the only solution of the problem.

It is clearly a matter of the most urgent importance that all possible steps should be taken to provide an ultimate solution. It is only by the provision of suitable employment at home that emigration can be checked. In particular, no opportunity must be neglected of promoting in the areas a wider variety of employment, with emphasis on the provision of industrial employment. To the extent to which it does not spontaneously present itself the opportunities of creating the means of employment must be sought out and developed. Positive steps to this end have already been taken by the Government. An example was the provision under the Undeveloped Areas Act, 1952, of substantial financial assistance to encourage the establishment of industries in the undeveloped areas in the West.

Industrial activity, based on agricultural products, appears to afford the greatest prospect of successful development in the western counties, and it is on this assumption that the scheme covered by the present Bill has been put forward. The natural wealth of these areas consists almost entirely of extensive peat bogs, and considerable progress has been made in the development of these bogs for the production of fuel for many years to come. If left unworked, these bogs will merely continue to grow peat-producing vegetation which will add only slightly to the potential fuel supply. The value of these bogs, and their contribution to the economic development of the western areas in particular, and of the country generally, would be immeasurably enhanced if it could be shown that, by drainage and cultivation, they could be utilised for the production of agricultural crops suitable for subsequent drying or other industrial processing.

Grass crops have already been grown experimentally on drained bogland. The primary purpose of the present measure is to enable further, full-scale experimental work to be undertaken to demonstrate the possibilities for the economic utilisation of drained bogland on a commercial basis. For this purpose it is proposed to set up a limited company, Min-Fhéir Teóranta, to acquire, drain and cultivate bogland in the Bangor-Erris area of County Mayo, and to process grass and other plants for sale. If and when required, Min-Fhéir Teóranta will have the benefit of the technical advice and assistance of Bord na Móna, as well as of Cómhlucht Siúicre Eireann Teóranta, who have already undertaken experiments in the cultivation of drained bogland in other areas.

Whilst the Bill was being debated in the Dáil, some Deputies suggested that the company should devote its attention to the growing of crops other than grass. It is my intention that grass will be used as the pioneer crop during the years which must elapse before a cultivated bog soil deep enough to grow other crops is produced. The Bill is sufficiently wide in its scope to permit the company to engage in the production of such crops as it may itself decide in the light of its experience.

As I mentioned in the Dáil, the company might also undertake the growing of medicinal herbs, which are in short supply, and some of which can possibly be grown more successfully on drained bogland than elsewhere. I am reliably informed that, even at the present time, there is growing on bogland and on other types of poor land in the West of Ireland very valuable plants capable of being distilled or otherwise processed to produce valuable commercial products used for medicinal and aromatic purposes generally.

The scheme is in the nature of an experiment, and it is not possible, therefore, nor is it desirable, to attempt to anticipate the method of working which may be adopted by the new company. It is obvious, however, that two or three years may elapse before grass is available in sufficient quantities to justify the economic operations of a full-scale drying plant, and other methods of disposing of the crop may have to be adopted during this initial period. It would be idle also to suggest that even the most successful outcome of the experiment would automatically solve the problem of industrial employment in remote western areas. As has already been indicated, the purpose of the experiment is to demonstrate the commercial possibilities for the successful cultivation of drained bogland, and it is the intention that expenditure by Min-Fhéir Teóranta during the experimental period should be limited to the amount necessary for this purpose.

Several considerations influenced the choice of the Bangor-Erris area for this experiment. Firstly, it is in the heart of one of the most extensive peat areas in the country, and Bord na Móna are in process of acquiring a substantial area of bog there (about 20,000 acres), out of which the much smaller area of 2,000 acres required for the grass meal experiment could readily be made available without in any way interfering with the plans for turf production. In fact, I have been informed that at least 2,000 acres would not be suitable for Bord na Móna purposes.

Secondly, the larger area of choice would permit the selection of a location suitable for the use of the mechanical equipment proposed to be used. Finally, as the ultimate objective in the bog development at Bangor-Erris was the erection by the E.S.B. of a peat-fired electricity generating station, the availability of any electric power required for the industrial processes would be ensured.

Grass meal is used here mainly as a constituent in the manufacture of compound feeding stuffs, for which purpose there is a demand both at home and for export. Grass meal may also be used as a source of chlorophyll, a substance now used extensively in pharmaceutical preparations, and it may be possible to develop a new export market for this purpose.

I am informed that the plant for the extraction of chlorophyll would necessitate a capital outlay to set up an economic industrial organisation of something in the neighbourhood of £500,000. I have no method of assessing whether that is an accurate estimate, but my source of information is reliable and I have no reason to believe that chlorophyll could be produced economically in sufficient quantity at less than £500,000 even though some people in the country maintain that it could be produced economically at less than that.

It is estimated that, approximately, 4,000 tons of grass meal will be produced annually and that, on the basis of present costs and prices, the company, when in full production, will operate at a profit. Adopting the least favourable figures, the grass meal is estimated to cost £22 7s. per ton at plant against the current delivered sale price of £31 to £34 per ton, according to quality.

Some comment was made in the Dáil about the discrepancy of cost per ton between grass meal produced by the proposed company and the grass meal as at present produced, but Senators will observe that I have referred to the sum of £22 7s. as cost per ton at plant. There would also have to be taken into consideration the cost of bagging and other costs.

On the question of a market for the grass meal, it was suggested in the Dáil that the domestic requirement of this commodity cannot be expected to absorb more than 7,000 tons annually, and that other producers are in a position to produce 5,000 tons. In this connection, I wish to point out that, in 1948, which, as far as I am aware, was the first year in which grass meal was produced commercially in this country as a constituent for feeding stuffs, production was of the order of 650 tons. Last year the total production was about 4,000 tons. That increase in that comparatively short period was achieved without any wide publicity campaign on behalf of the producers.

I believe, therefore, that there is still ample scope for the production of grass meal as a constituent in compound feeding stuffs. I would like at this stage to assure Senators, however, that it is not intended that the Bangor-Erris project should be used to prejudice existing producers of grass meal.

Capital expenditure on the grass meal project is estimated to amount to approximately £165,000, and provision is made in the Bill for the making of grants up to this amount out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas. Senators will be aware that the Minister for External Affairs informed the Dáil on the 10th June, 1952, that proposals for the utilisation of moneys in the Grant Counterpart Special Account were sent on the 4th June, 1952, to the American Ambassador for transmission to the United States authorities. These proposals included the grass meal project, for which it was proposed that £150,000 be provided from the Grant Counterpart Special Account to meet capital expenditure. Irrespective of the outcome of this proposal for the use of counterpart funds, it is intended that capital expenditure on the project should be met in the first instance out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.

Under the terms of the Bill, the activities of the new company are restricted to the processing of grass and other plants, but there is provision under which licences may be granted to the company permitting it to manufacture other products suitable for use as animal feeding stuffs or fertilisers. The licensing provision in this Bill might be described as merely precautionary.

In introducing the Bill in the Dáil, I mentioned that one of the products that might be produced under this licensing provision was seaweed meal but no decision has been taken with regard to its production. That will be a matter for the new company, having regard to their experience and having regard to the chances of producing seaweed meal on a commercial basis. One of the major obstacles to the development of the production of seaweed meal up to now has been the absence of a suitable organisation within a reasonable distance from the source of supply of the seaweed, adapted to undertake the actual drying and grinding processes. The occasion of the introduction of legislation to provide for the production of grass meal has been availed of to provide that the proposed new organisation might undertake, under licence, the production of seaweed meal. That, however, is not its primary function and if a decision were taken to introduce a comprehensive scheme of seaweed meal production, separate provision would have to be made for the financing of such a scheme. There is no financial provision for it in the Bill.

I commend this Bill to the House because I think it shows an earnest of our desire to deal seriously with the problem of creating work and maintaining the people on the land in the West of Ireland. Furthermore if, as a result of this experiment we can illustrate that the utilisation of the extensive tracts of bogland in the West is economically feasible, we will have achieved something really worthwhile.

No doubt, Senators familiar with conditions in the West, and particularly where congestion is concerned, having regard to the immense tracts of bogland that are available, particularly in this Bangor-Erris area, are aware that it can be readily accepted that, if we can show that bogland can be used successfully to grow crops, it will in some measure—and I suggest in some significant measure—tend towards the solution of what appears to be now an almost insurmountable problem of relieving congestion. Therefore, from every point of view I recommend the Bill to the House and I hope that it will meet with the approval of Senators.

Mr. Baxter

This is a small and simple looking measure. I welcome it and venture to prophesy that, simple as it appears, it may after some time be written down as one of the most important proposals that has come before the Oireachtas sinces this State was established. I believe that it may rank with the introduction of the original Shannon Scheme Bill by Deputy McGilligan away back in 1925. The Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues on the other side of the House may be rather surprised at such a statement coming from me. Perhaps even the Parliamentary Secretary himself would be hesitant to make such a claim for the Bill. I suppose I was brought up closer to the bog than he was. I probably know something more about it and I venture to say that the effort which he is making now in a new way to develop the peat bogs of Ireland will leave a mark on the country that just at the moment we can hardly foresee.

I heard about this proposal first—I am going to make a confession—during the by-election in North Mayo. I think someone spoke about it down there. I had made the long trek from Cavan to North Mayo, probably 140 or 150 miles, across what seemed to me a very neglected country. My first reaction, when I heard of the proposal to grow grass in the bogs in Mayo was: "Why do the people who are talking like that not teach the farmers how to grow grass over all the area I passed to-day?" That was a natural reaction, as that is the truth of the situation as we see it in the country to-day.

I was somewhat surprised when I discovered it was the Minister for Industry and Commerce who was fathering these proposals and not the Minister for Agriculture. I thought it would be essentially and fundamentally the job of the Minister for Agriculture to start with the experimentation of growing grass in the bog, but lo and behold, the responsibility is passed over to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Anyone looking at the countryside and its neglected appearance could not but react as I did. We have not been taught how to grow grass on the mineral soils of the country and the signs of it are to be seen on the face of the country to-day—it is just as grave as the face of the dead Stalin.

I have changed my mind inside the last week. I made a journey down to the bogs in the Roscommon-Galway area, where Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann have taken over 2,000 acres and are experimenting in the growing of grass. It was a revelation to me. I would suggest to Senators to take the first opportunity to make an excursion to those bogs and see for themselves. I would like them to do that soon, as in a very short time the land of the country will begin to change its appearance. It would be better for them to make the journey before the land has changed its coat. From where I left my fields until I got to Ballyforan, a distance of 80 miles, I did not see a green patch; and away in the distance I could see what the Sugar Company have achieved. They have taken over approximately 2,000 acres, a vast territory in a part of the country that, in its way, is almost as remote from the point of view of the rest of Ireland as Siberia is from Georgia, the birthplace of Stalin. I saw an area in this bog where there was a lake only a short time after these people entered in upon it. Now they are growing grass on virgin bog that was sown down only in September last. With a colleague, I ploughed across the area and as we went along, we had almost to hold each other up. In places, the water was coming up to the laceholes of our boots and yet that beautiful grass was growing with a vigour and a vitality that was truly astonishing.

A scientific approach has been made by the men in charge of this work down there. We met one of these young men and I have to comment very favourably on the interest they have displayed in what has been done and the very considerable capacity and appreciation of the possibilities which they have shown. The Parliamentary Secretary has that before him. In a way it looks almost like a miracle, but it has been and is being done. These people have their grass-drying plant set up in a building there which a little while ago could be reached only by the birds. It was the first time I was in the heart of the bog of Allen. In my part of the country, we judge the coming of winter by the flight of the wild geese crossing over to the bog and somewhere in that locality they establish their abode, a region where all this work has been accomplished with the marvellous machines which the Sugar Company had been able to construct and reconstruct.

From what I saw and from what I know of producing young grass, what the Parliamentary Secretary is proposing is not a probability or a possibility but something which has been definitely established already and I congratulate the pioneers who have done this work. It is true that in other countries a great deal more is known about the development and cultivation of peat bogs than we know. On the other hand, we know what was achieved here in generations past in the reclamation of bogland. The total areas reclaimed, however, were comparatively small in relation to what we have available.

So impressed was I by what I saw and so impressed was I by the possibilities that I feel that when giving our blessing to this Bill, what the nation has to consider, if it is satisfied that this is possible of achievement, is the immediate question of the future utilisation of our peat bogs. We are thinking of peat now as a source of power. We can produce electricity from it and it can be burned in all sorts of ways. Under the Parliamentary Secretary's Department the Electricity Supply Board and Bord na Móna are functioning. In the bad days of the landlords, the small farmers had to burn the top soil to produce crops, and I suggest that, before we extend the activities of Bord na Móna very much further in burning the bogs to produce power, we give consideration to whether these bogs are not capable, under this new type of development, of producing much greater power and away into the generations to come. Before we waste it burning it up, we should study that aspect. I am satisfied that we have possibilities there for adding 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 acres to the land of this country.

There were new proposals recently to extend the activities of Bord na Móna into Donegal and West Clare. In both these regions, there is very considerable congestion. I understand that the proposals of Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann are to develop the bogs by the production, first, of a grass crop. It is a technical problem—the cultivation of the top surface of the bog, its deepening by further cultivation and the encouragement of plant growth which will go down and down and eventually produce a condition in which they will have fertility and humus capable of growing crops of beet or anything else. I believe it is possible, but if that be possible over great areas of the country, in a country like this, where we have spent so much money breaking up the national cake and redividing it by taking congests from the West and breaking up farms in Meath and Westmeath and elsewhere in order to provide new homes, and in the conditions of our agricultural economy to-day, it would be much more fruitful for us to restudy this whole problem in relation to the development of these peat bogs and their conversion into good soil where the foundations of future homes could be laid.

I do not think there is any miracle or any great difficulty about that. There is a problem of capital investment and the employment of labour which is in the country, and that is the sort of thing we ought to face. Before the Ministry of Industry and Commerce decide to extend the activities of Bord na Móna into the development of electricity in certain new areas, that problem of how we can utilise most profitably the land surface of the country should be adequately studied, and I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he set up some authority, some commission or group of people competent to assess in relation to our whole future the respective values of two types of activity. We have had difficulties in the past in getting the means to produce power and, in the not-far-distant future, we may be able to import something which one could put into one's pocket, but which will produce atomic energy in quantities more than ample for all our needs. Before we act foolishly and burn more of the top soil, I suggest that we see it would not produce much more power for animal and man by its utilisation in this form.

I am not pretending that this is a simple operation but I believe that it is possible of achievement. That fact, I think, has already been established and there is plenty data in relation to what has been accomplished in other countries to draw upon. While it is true that the Parliamentary Secretary is able to draw on whatever facilities Bord na Móna and Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann are able to place at his disposal, I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should try to build up the kind of organisation which he would visualise as being the nucleus of something much bigger for the development of these areas in the future. After all, Mussolini drained the Pontine marshes and settled many families thereon. That was not a small undertaking. It added immensely to the happiness of the people in that area and to the productivity of the Italian people in relation to their crops.

There are a number of efforts which must be made if this plan is to be as successful as it ought to be from the beginning. There are men here, such as Senator O'Callaghan and others, who understand the difficulties of producing good grasses. They know what the difficulties are in regard to getting grasses that are suitable to the differrent types of soil. In this connection our knowledge is rather scant. In the main, we import grasses from New Zealand and elsewhere. It is a very strange and remarkable fact that the heaviest yields in grasses to-day are got by farmers who utilise grasses imported from New Zealand. Some come from Aberystwyth. These strains of grasses have to be brought here and have to accustom themselves to their new habitat.

If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to make this enterprise a success, one of the first things he will have to do will be to look out for the most distinguished geneticists he can find in America or in the Australasian countries and bring them here and not be afraid to pay them. That is the first thing that will have to be done. While these grasses give quite good returns, it astonishes me how it is possible to bring grasses from so far away as the North Island of New Zealand, plant them in a bog in Bangor-Erris and expect the returns from them which they give in their native environment. I have heard this problem discussed on a number of occasions.

We have no organisation in this State to-day which is able to do anything in regard to that sort of development. If you want to go into what our agricultural scientists are doing from the point of view of plant breeding the fact it that we have only one such institution at Glasnevin. That is all we have got from the point of view of the breeding and cultivation of grasses. We have done nothing whatever about that and we are not preparing to do anything about it. If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to get the yields from these areas that are necessary for economic production, that is one of the first things he has got to do. You can produce grass with a relatively high protein content and it may very well be that if you get a scientist of considerable competence he will be able to cross seeds under conditions that will give, perhaps, a 50 per cent. higher protein content from breeding beyond anything available to us at the moment. The whole economics of the undertaking can be altered by that fact.

I know there was criticism in the other House in regard to the possibilities of doing that. The question of the total consumption of grass meal in the country was discussed and whether there was a market for it. One thing is true, that the grass meal produced in the country at the moment is of a rather low protein content. The Parliamentary Secretary gave us figures. He told us that it was anticipated that grass meal could be produced at the factory at £22 7s. per ton on the bog and that its sale would bring in £30 to £34. I do not know whether he is talking of £30 per ton in regard to a protein content of 13, 14 or 15 per cent. It is not fair to challenge the Parliamentary Secretary on these matters, but the grass meal that contains anything less than a 15 per cent. protein content would be a rather poor product.

If you can aim at the production of grass meal in this country of a higher protein content the market for that is assured. Pig and poultry production requires protein. In the past, very considerable quantities were imported from the American Continent in one form or another. All crops on the American Continent are increasing in value and labour costs there are very high. I cannot see why it is not possible for us under these conditions to produce a protein for animal food as cheaply as it can be produced anywhere on earth.

I think the harnessing of the different types of scientific information that can be made available to this new organisation will make that possible. The production of grass meal outside Dublin and in two or three other places is from land which, I presume, is rather highly rented. It is being produced from power that is expensive to-day. On the bog there is power available with which you can produce. That would be part of the scheme. I have no idea what the Parliamentary Secretary has in mind in regard to the capital costs of the development per acre, but I imagine that the capital costs in this new region are not going to be anything as expensive as they were for Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann outside Ballyforan.

It seems to me that the Bill was drafted from the angle that this matter was to be approached as an industrial undertaking. I doubt very much whether it is going to be possible for this new enterprise successfully to cultivate grass without the aid of live stock. I do not know whether, under this Bill, it is possible for the organisation to go into the market and purchase live stock and so on. It does not seem to me that there is power to do that. It does not appear on the face of the Bill so far.

It is absolutely essential for the better propagation of the grasses, their strengthening and the building up of them to bear that in mind right from the beginning. We may have to engage in a type of animal husbandry that will help. Probably the best thing for the full development of these grasses would be to turn live stock on the grass crop early. I think you will have a much better possibility of full development of the grasses by building up the root system and ensure heavier yields later on. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary can do that, but I think he must bear that in mind.

I want to suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary, however, that he ought not to be diverted from his course in the development of the bogs by talking or thinking about making meal from seaweed. You are going into what may be a very big enterprise full of significance for the country's future, because there are 4,000,000 acres of bog in the country. I do not know how much of that is capable of development. There are some thousands of acres of it in my own county, and I know it is true that it is at an altitude that may not be quite suitable for the growing of grass. As I saw it at Ballyforan, it is a problem of investigation and experimentation. We have hardly a county in the country where we could not add thousands of acres to the existing land. Perhaps a good many of the farmers who see the grey faces of their own fields might, on seeing green acres of grass growing on the bogs around them, be given an inspiration to do something of the same sort with their own land.

I will conclude by saying that, if the policy of the Department of Agriculture had been more successful in educating farmers to grow better grass, and if they allowed more research, study and education, the task which is now confronting the Parliamentary Secretary would be comparatively simple. In the main, most of us are very ignorant of the difficulties he is facing. Yet, they are capable of solution, because they have been solved by the people of other countries. I am satisfied that he has a good deal of the information gathered in these countries to draw upon, but I would urge upon him to push ahead on this project with vigour, although there may be many "doubting Thomases" in his own and in other ranks. I have no doubt that if it is possible in this generation to start a policy to enable us in a bloodless conquest to add another million acres to this country, it is a battle in which we will be proud to take part.

Mr. Quirke

I feel considerable satisfaction in the fact that Senator Baxter is in favour of this Bill and the only thing I am sorry for is that he rather took the edge off his enthusiasm by a couple of the remarks which he passed. It would be rather hard to find anybody who could make a reasonable speech against the Bill, because it was quite evident from the speech made by the Parliamentary Secretary when introducing the measure that it is a Bill largely to relieve unemployment and to remedy the problem of emigration in the western parts of the country. Senator Baxter, while he was inclined to be complimentary to the Parliamentary Secretary, and while he was inclined to favour the measure, took a peculiar line, I thought. In saying that, I mean that, after he had spoken very favourably in connection with the measure, he then took the line that there was a danger that developing the bogs for producing electrical current might be detrimental to the development of the bog for grass meal production.

Taking his own figure of 4,000,000 acres of bog yet to be developed, it is surely a long way off, and, in fact, I think it is doubtful if we would ever reach the stage when we would have to decide on curtailing the development of bogs for electricity production because it constituted a danger to the continuing production of grass meal. I would go further and say that these two propositions should work hand in hand, and in any further development that we may have or propose to have for the utilisation of bogland in grass meal production or for any other purposes, we must at the same time develop bogs for electricity production. In any development we are likely to have in the future, one of the principal problems will be the supply of adequate electrical current.

Senator Baxter also suggested that it might be advisable in connection with a scheme of this kind that at the outset we should operate this scheme with a plan to produce live stock. At the same time, Senator Baxter says that he has seen first-class grass produced by the Irish Sugar Company. I take it that this grass plan has not been produced with the production of live stock in view at all. I do not say that live-stock production from such grass would be a bad thing eventually, but, as the Parliamentary Secretary has explained, this is an experiment and if a good class grass can be produced in one part of the country in bogland without the introduction of the live-stock element, then it could be produced in another area. The Parliamentary Secretary said that the Bill ought to have the whole-hearted support of every member of the Oireachtas. It has been criticised in the Dáil and it is only natural that it would be criticised here, but it will serve a useful purpose.

Senator Baxter spent some time on the bog area developed by the Irish Sugar Company. I have not been there but I have read about it and I think that there is every reason to be proud of it. I believe the people in charge of the Irish Sugar Company, and particularly the managing director, General Costello, deserve to be congratulated on their efforts in connection with the development of bogland, land previously regarded as being useless. As a result of his efforts and the efforts of his board, the lands are now producing crops which are really a matter of amazement to people and it just goes to show what can be done with land.

I am in agreement with Senator Baxter when he says that there is a lot of land apart from bogland which could be made productive. The bog he speaks of is on the borders of Roscommon and Galway and he saw land which had been considerably improved by the proper application of agricultural methods.

In so far as the production of grass is concerned, I am in 100 per cent. agreement with him. I was amazed when, in the last six months I visited a farm in County Meath, not too far distant from Dublin. We have all heard arguments that some of these ancient pasture lands could never be brought back to the state when they could produce grass. I am prepared to say, and would be delighted to show anyone, this farm where the most extraordinary grass is growing as a result of ploughing up some of the old pasturage in County Meath. The farmer who owns the land is pretty well known to most members and he told me that after he had planted the proper type of seeds and got this splendid grass crop, his only difficulty was to try to finance the buying of cattle to place on it. Senator Baxter knows who the farmer is and has seen his farm. It is a great thing that we can agree on something of that kind, that is, that if some of the old pasture land were properly tilled and reseeded we could certainly increase production here by 100 per cent. That is a fact; there is no doubt about it and that is the case for wheat, oats and every kind of crop.

Senator Baxter said that the only place where experimentation work is carried out is at Glasnevin. I agree that a lot more experimental work could be done, but I do not think it is right to say, as Senator Baxter did, that the only place where plant experiments are carried out in the country is in Glasnevin.

Mr. Baxter

I did not say that. I was talking about plant breeding.

Mr. Quirke

I was in Johnstown, County Waterford, and saw valuable experiments being carried out there in the production of grass and various other crops under the supervision of the Department of Agriculture.

In connection with the future of the peat bogs of the country, I have taken considerable interest in that particular subject for a great many years, and I am very glad to see this particular development in the production of actual crops such as grass, and I can understand seed beet on the actual bog areas once they were properly drained. I was very much interested at one time in the growing of crops on cutaway bogs. There is no reason why these two things could not go on hand in hand. We have a large and considerable area of cutaway bogs in the western areas, and I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should take particular notice of what could be done with these cutaway bogs. If we are to have people who are expert in the production of grass and other crops on ordinary bog areas, the same people might be utilised to find out what could be done in a cutaway bog. I believe that something could be done, probably by the application of ground limestone, which is in plentiful supply in this country at this time, in these cutaway bog areas.

Before the schemes for electricity have been completely developed, I think notice should be taken of what lands are available. I hope that during the period of office of the present Parliamentary Secretary we will reach the stage where we would be running short of boglands for the development of electricity. I hope, and I feel sure, that the present Parliamentary Secretary will be a long time in his present office, but even so, I do not think that he will be there long enough to reach that particular stage of development.

I am delighted to find Senator Baxter and myself in agreement on this particular measure. I feel that as a result of this proposal more power will be made available for man and beast in this country. I believe that every effort of this type which is being made to develop the western areas and the bogland areas deserves the unlimited support of the people of the country and the members of the Oireachtas. I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on what he has done in this direction and what he is doing under this Bill.

Mr. O'Grady

First of all, I would like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his courage and foresight in introducing a measure of this nature which could, perhaps, be the subject of adverse comment from a great number of people. Nevertheless, I believe, like Senator Baxter, that there is more in this measure than would be apparent at the moment. This is an experiment —a courageous experiment, I might say —in the development of our boglands and I am confident that the Parliamentary Secretary, with the advice which is now available to him and judging by what has already been done and in the light of the progress already made by Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann in these matters, will have considerable success. The Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann experiment was a similar venture in East Galway and South Roscommon and the fact that that experiment was successful will lend encouragement to the Parliamentary Secretary to proceed full steam ahead with this scheme. I hope also, and indeed I am confident, that the scheme will not be confined merely to the production of grass meal; that it is merely the beginning and that, when this area is made to produce grass, in the course of four or five years it will be made capable of the production of many other useful crops for live-stock feeding.

The amount of money involved, while fairly considerable, is yet comparatively small from the point of view of a national expenditure in something which will produce results and will be one of the finest investments ever made.

I was very pleased to listen to Senator Baxter's contribution to the debate, which was honest, and he admitted that when he first heard of the scheme he was very sceptical but, having educated himself by a visit to the project of Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann in Galway, he was convinced of its success, and he admitted that he was convinced of the prospects of the scheme. His contribution from the other side of the House will indeed be very helpful, and all Parties will join in wishing the Parliamentary Secretary every success with the scheme.

On the question of how best to produce grass, we have had various opinions which have been contrary to each other as to whether or not live stock should be introduced into these lands. In my opinion, that would be necessary in order to promote the consolidation of the ground where grass seed is to be grown, and it will help to enhance the prospects of the production of other crops. Without the introduction of cattle and sheep you will not get as good results. The results would not be as good if you just start cutting the grass immediately for the production of grass meal. Anybody who understands agriculture will agree with that.

I would like in the course of time to see similar experiments carried out in other parts of the country, especially in those areas where the turf has been cut away and there is a lot of waste land. There are a couple of thousand acres of such land in the South and West of Ireland, and I hope that as quickly as possible we will get to the stage where these lands can be put back into production and so extend the area of arable land available for the production of crops in this country.

Mr. O'Higgins

I just want to say a few words with regard to the mechanics of the Bill. I cannot follow Senator Baxter or Senator Quirke in making forecasts with regard to the future. However, I do not propose to follow them in that. I think Senator Baxter's approach to the Bill probably summarises the views of a great number of people. There was a certain amount of prejudice against the Bill at the start, and possibly there is not the same prejudice now. I do not know enough about that end of it to talk with anything approaching authority on it, but I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary some questions, first of all, about Section 8 of the Bill.

I would like to ask him if he will consider inserting an amendment with regard to the directors of the company, to provide that no member of the Dáil or Seanad shall be appointed as a director. The Tánaiste in this House this afternoon spent some time explaining why a similar provision to the one I am suggesting appeared with regard to the proposed fair trade commission in the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill. I think the Tánaiste was perfectly accurate in the arguments he used. It has now become accepted by the leaders of all political parties that it is undesirable that members of the Dáil or Seanad should be appointed to positions in any of the State or semi-State companies. Certainly there is ample precedent for the Parliamentary Secretary to insert the provision in the Bill to preclude members of the Dáil or Seanad, so long as they remain members of either House, from taking positions in companies such as this. I would strongly urge the Parliamentary Secretary to conform to the precedent established and include a similar provision in this Bill.

Secondly, with regard to the same section, I want to suggest that Section 8 could be improved somewhat with regard to the appointment and removal of directors of the company. It is provided in Section 8 that directors may be appointed and removed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce after consultation with the Minister for Finance. I have in the past protested against similar provisions in other Bills and I want to protest against that provision in this Bill. I have no objection at all—in fact, I think it is quite right—that the Minister primarily concerned with the functions of the company should have a say. Indeed, I would be the first to agree that he should have the appointment of directors, but I think it is unfair and dangerous to leave to one man, or one man in consultation with a political colleague of his, the power of removal of a director from office and I would suggest, for the consideration of the Parliamentary Secretary, that there should be some safeguard inserted in the Bill for directors who might quite conscientiously decide that the policy which they want to see the company pursuing would be different from that which the Minister might recommend.

Because of a difference of opinion about matters such as that, the Minister should not be put in the position that he can remove a director from office. That is the position at the moment. I think the Minister should not have that power of removal unless a majority of the directors of the company recommend that course. In any event, some safeguard such as that should be inserted in the Bill.

The only other matter I want to deal with is the one which the Parliamentary Secretary has referred to. It concerns Section 11, the section which provides that the Minister may, if he considers it desirable, grant a licence to the company to produce matters other than those dealt with in the memorandum and articles of association. Section 11 starts:—

"This section applies to products suitable for use, whether alone or in conjunction with other products, as animal feeding stuffs or fertilisers, not being products which the company is authorised by its memorandum of association to manufacture."

It goes on to provide that in certain circumstances, if the Minister believes that such a product can be produced in substantial quantities and is not being produced in substantial quantities by private enterprise, the Minister may give a licence to the company to produce it. It does contain that safeguard, that the Minister shall be obliged to give public notice of his intention to grant a licence and that, if objections are raised, he must give consideration to those objections.

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that it might be possible, without departing from the principle of Section 11, to amend the Bill. In the cases where these products are being produced by private enterprise and where the only complaint against a private firm engaged in their production is that they are not able to produce the articles in quantities sufficient to satisfy what the Minister considers are the requirements, it would be wiser to take authority under this Bill to assist that private firm to engage in greater production by expanding its capital, machinery, or whatever production methods are necessary, rather than to issue a licence under Section 11, which would certainly in those circumstances have the effect of wiping out the private firm.

Apart from those remarks, I want to join with the Senators who have expressed approval of the effort being made in this Bill, but I earnestly ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give consideration to the matters I have mentioned. I do not think there are any of them which would in any way take away from the effectiveness of the Bill if he inserted them as amendments. I think—quite the contrary— the point I made with regard to the dismissal or removal of directors and the point regarding the elimination of the members of the Houses of the Oireachtas as candidates for the positions of directors, would immensely improve the Bill.

Mr. Kilroy

I welcome this Bill. It is certainly a great thing and is wanted in Erris. It is an area that has been much neglected up to the present. I think that the beginning which has been made there this year in sowing the grasses as an experiment gives grounds for hoping that the project will be a success. I welcome the Bill and thank the Parliamentary Secretary for introducing it.

Mr. O'Callaghan

I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on having brought in a Bill on which Senator Baxter and Senator Quirke are able to agree. Having got agreement between these two, he need have no fear whatever about the Bill or about the project which he is undertaking.

This matter of growing grass in bogs originated in Kerry many years ago, where it was carried on in a small way. Five or six years ago it was taken up by the Sugar Company, and they did it in a larger way. It has been considered down there to be a huge success, and I learn from what Senator Baxter has said that the experiment in Roscommon is an equally great success. In a small way I have done something of that nature myself, and if the Parliamentary Secretary is ever in my district I will have much pleasure in showing him poor land converted into land which is at present grazing twice as many cattle as any land in the Golden Vale or in the Midlands. Not only could the bogs be reseeded and improved, but a big portion of the country could be done also.

The Parliamentary Secretary said that £22 7s. is the cost of manufacture of grass meal that he has converted. I have had some acres converted into meal at a cost of £17 but that does not include the cost of producing the grass and I take it that the Parliamentary Secretary includes that figure in the £22 7s. I have had it processed at the Cappoquin drying station and a most beautiful feed it is.

It is well known to all the people who manage live stock that grass is the best food than can be given to live stock of any kind. Here we have the opportunity of feeding grass to our animals in mid-winter, for the dried grass is just as good as the green grass which is fed off by animals in the months of May and June.

Senator Baxter suggested that we should get someone from abroad with a knowledge of plant breeding and that we had only one plant breeding expert in this country. I do not think that that is quite right. I know of a second plant breeding expert in this country and he is a man of international repute. He is attached to the beet factory. He has travelled a good bit in European countries and has picked up whatever knowledge is available there. I think the Parliamentary Secretary might consider developing our own people rather than bringing in foreigners. Send our own people to where they can learn and bring them back then. They will understand the native conditions and the native people better than foreigners would. I think foreigners have not been a huge success in this country and what I suggest might be considered by the Parliamentary Secretary.

There is also the question of growing grass seed. I think Senator Baxter referred to that. I am not finding fault in any way with what Senator Baxter said, as I agree with every word he said and I was very pleased to hear him speak as he did. We did grow Cocksfoot here and one of the greatest experts in grass seed, George Stapleton, has said that the Cocksfoot grown here is better than that grown anywhere else. I think it should be developed more than it is being developed at the present time, and other grasses should be developed also.

Someone said that it would not be wise to undertake the development of boglands without the possibility of getting farmyard manure. I do not agree with that. There is plenty of humus in the bogs for many years to come and no farmyard manure will be required. Liming and artificial manures will produce crops in these bogs for many years to come. Without doubt this project will be a success.

When these lands have been converted and when it is proved that crops can be grown there I would like to see the lands handed back to congests in the West—in small parcels, of course—to keep the people in the native districts. I congratulate the Minister again and say that he can go full steam ahead with the full knowledge that his project is going to be a success.

Mr. Commons

It would be rather foolish for a County Mayo man at this stage to oppose this Bill or to say anything against it. For my own part, I welcome the measure. Although I come from the South of Mayo and would be as strange in the Bangor-Erris area as I would be if I came from Roscommon or Longford, I welcome the expenditure of £100,000 in any part of County Mayo, whether the spending is put into a project that is good or bad. I look upon the spending of £100,000 as something that will give an enormous amount of employment and will do a certain amount of good. The idea behind the production of grass in bogs is certainly a good one. It is nothing new to the farmers in the West of Ireland. It was unfortunate for ourselves that we had to reclaim many acres of bogland to add to the small holdings, otherwise we would have been very much tightened up. I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that when bogland is fairly well drained and reasonably well manured, it can produce a very good and high-class grass. As Senator Baxter has said it would be well if the good arable land could look at the face of the bogland now and again, to see the green in one beside the other.

In this debate the feeling of most Senators seems to be that the development of grass is almost entirely for the creation of more land, to add to the arable land pool we have in the country. In reality, the main idea behind the Bill is to cultivate a certain amount of bogland to produce grass and other crops for conversion into grass meal as the case may be. The very title of the Bill gives that meaning, as I understand it. In fairness, however, it leaves room also to expand this idea into the production of any other class of crop for which this land is suitable.

I know the Bangor-Erris area reasonably well, and there are three things that can be done in that locality. The first is to plant it; the second is to use the peat there for electric power, which is being done; and the third is to make an effort to convert it and bring it back into grass land. These are the only things we can do with the bogland in that area. Whether or not the planting of that area is feasible, we do not know. Some experts maintain that it is too near the Atlantic coast and that the salt spray would never allow good timber to grow there. Others maintain that that is all humbug and that with good shelter belts along the shore good forest timber could be grown. Which of these we are to believe, I do not know, but one thing is certain: if the production of grass in this area is a success, it will give a far quicker return for the amount of money spent than forestry of any description. As the area being embarked upon now, about 2,000 acres, is not very big, it is right that this Bill should get every possible encouragement and, as I say, it would be foolish for anybody from the County Mayo to do otherwise.

I have a fear, however, with regard to a factory being established there with an overdose of enthusiasm. I remember when, in 1934, the industrial alcohol factory was established in the county, with a certain amount of expenditure and the best intentions in the world, for the processing of potatoes for the production of industrial alcohol. That was known as the white elephant of North Mayo, because, as was proved afterwards, if we had spilled the alcohol on to the ground, paid the employees their wages and sent them home, there would still be a saving to the national purse. That is the fear I have of giving this project an overdose of enthusiastic support. I should like to see it fight its own battle the hard way, with just the necessary amount of encouragement.

If we embark on this project solely for the production of grass meal as a feeding stuff, we are not going to make a success of it. A price of £30 to £34 per ton for animal feeding stuff is too high and unless it is of first-class quality, it will attract very few buyers at that price. If I had to pay over 30/- per cwt. for any type of feeding stuff, I would feel that I would be better off merely sitting down than feeding any animal. That is the type of economy our small farmers in the West have been brought up on and what goes for the small farmer, I presume, goes also for the large farmer. I saw this product at the show at Ballsbridge last year and it looked reasonably good. To my inexperienced eye, its protein content was not as high as we would wish. It struck me as something somewhat better, or maybe a good deal better, than sugar beet pulp, but it was not something which would attract the average live-stock feeder or dairyman.

The production of medicinal products was referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary, though with some caution, because he admitted that it would take a much bigger project to develop the production of such products to any extent. I feel that we must follow the line suggested here by Senators on all sides, and recultivate the boglands for the production of grass, almost entirely with a view to adding to the available grassland. That is a very good idea and if we can add 2,000 acres of grass to the Bangor-Erris area, something very good will have been achieved. I have no doubt whatever that we will be able to do that. I have seen cultivated bogland of first-class quality and, with Government machines and Government capital on a large scale behind it, it could very well be done. I would remind those who think that if we strip all the peat off our bogs, they will be useless for conversion into grassland, that I would much prefer to go into cut-away bog at any time than into virgin bog and try to convert it into grass. That is my practical experience and I will not give way to any experts on that point because I have had experience of it over 20 odd years.

The Parliamentary Secretary met a certain amount of criticism and an atmosphere of uncertainty as to whether this was going to be a success or not, during the passage of this Bill through the Dáil. The atmosphere here is entirely different. My idea in speaking on the measure is to welcome it into the county, in the hope that we can add so much more grassland to this area and still leave plenty of bog for Bord na Móna and the E.S.B. to develop. With regard to Bord na Móna, we all know that there are many thousands of tons of turf which have been produced and which are now being sold at a loss, and we know also that a Supplementary Estimate will have to be introduced shortly to provide for these losses. There are thousands of tons of turf stacked on the side of the roads in Mayo, turf produced by Bord na Móna, which cannot be sold to anybody. I also know that in the days of the hand-won turf it was with reluctance that the Mayo County Council accepted turf from Bangor-Erris because of the heavy cost of transport.

It strikes me that the debate has been conducted rather as a debate on agriculture, and we have had arguments as to whether or not live stock should be grazed on bogland which has been reseeded down. My own experience and opinion is that you cannot graze heavy cattle or cattle for many years on such land, because they tear it up. We have been told by our agricultural instructors that the reason we have so much rushes growing on our land is the fact that the heavy cattle leave tracks of their hooves, and where there is such a track, there is an inclination for bunches of rushes to grow. To graze it with sheep, however, is entirely different. Whether it is wise or unwise to graze sheep over bogland is something about which we all wonder, but I would say: keep sheep away from bogs, or, if you put them on bogland, make sure they go to the butcher after a year, because they will not come off that land very free from fluke or any of the diseases which even a slightly wet land is bound to give them. The grazing over of this land would be useful and would help to add a certain amount of manure to it, which is very valuable to any land.

We know that the reason why half the grass of our country is so brown and bleak looking is because it is let run into seed. A person might be described as being mad if he were seen in the middle of July cutting his pasture down to within two or three inches of the ground with a mowing machine. We know now that this is the best system for good pasture. The farmer who prevents the grass going into seed is the man who will have good grass and pasture. These matters may seem far-fetched having regard to the Bill which is still in its infancy but the ideas are good.

The Parliamentary Secretary cannot say that we have not given the measure an enthusiastic reception. Where criticism was necessary it was given. As far as I am concerned, I welcome this measure and I hope it will be successful. If the 2,000 acres is brought to green grass in the Bangor-Erris area, I hope that the system will be extended throughout all the boglands. As I said before, we have thousands upon thousands of cut-away bog and cut-away bog is easier reclaimed than virgin bog.

Mr. S. O'Donovan

I would like to congratulate Senator Baxter for what I consider was a magnificent speech. I expected to hear him criticising this measure. I thought that would be his approach. I heard to-day that he was going to speak favourably and I congratulate him on the approach he made to the measure.

I look on this measure as being one primarily to provide beneficial employment in the congested, undeveloped areas. Such employment would ultimately result in improvement of the boglands which would be reclaimed. Having heard this enthusiastic speech and the recommendations of other Senators. I became quite keen to get more information on the matter. I would certainly like to get an opportunity of viewing the places in Roscommon and Galway which the Senator described. I did not know much about boglands until we got an invitation from Bord na Móna. Senators were conveyed to bog development works in the Midlands and it was an education for all of us. I would be delighted to get an opportunity of seeing this development for the purpose of educating myself in regard to what it means and what benefits will ultimately accrue to the country.

In introducing the measure to-day, the Parliamentary Secretary said the scheme was an experimental one but, according to Senator Baxter, the matter is already an accomplished fact in another district. Having regard to that, we ought not to be inclined to consider it as an experiment at all since the experiments have already been carried out and it is merely a question of implementing that work in other areas such as Bangor-Erris.

While Senator Baxter was speaking, I asked myself whether it was necessary to have this grassland developed on bogs which were not cut-away bogs. I presume that the surface has to be drained efficiently first. It then has to be cultivated. The rough herbage, the moss and the heath have to be cleared away. It must then be manured to some extent. If grass can grow on these boglands so perfectly with treatment I wonder why it did not grow naturally there? I would like to know what is the system of manuring, because naturally the bogland was not treated with farmyard manure. The treatment with artificial manures and the amount of such manures used would be of great interest to me.

The last speaker mentioned that the cut-away bog would do just as well. There need be no interference with Bord na Móna or the E.S.B. if the same success is met on cut-away bog as on the virgin bog.

Mr. Baxter

No drainage at all may be possible out of cut-away bog.

Mr. S. O'Donovan

That is the note I made. You have a depth of ten or 12 feet of peat and you have practically the same slope on a cut-away bog when you come down to the hard surface as you would have on the surface of the undeveloped bog. You may have some pot-holes and heights and hollows on the cut-away bog but these could be got over by cutting the hills and filling the hollows. The last speaker mentioned that cut-away bog is as good as the virgin bog so that the scope and the interest of this measure was widened for me.

If the cut-away bogs are not developed pretty quickly there will be a lot of erosion. There is a lot of cut-away bog in Connemara West. The land there was eroded by the action of the sun and wind, and there is nothing there but rocks, whereas if the land had been treated earlier on, there would have been some surface and some humus. If the surface of the bogs was quickly treated, you would have a covering of peat soil that could be developed in practically the same manner as is suggested in this Bill.

The scheme opens up a great vista for the future. We sincerely hope that it will be a success. Most people viewed this measure at the start from the point of view that it would provide beneficial and productive employment for the residents in the congested districts. The question of medicinal herbs was mentioned. The very mention of them would make one hunger for more information as to what chance there is of developing them on a commercial basis. Let us hope that if such an industry is started it will succeed, and it will naturally be of enormous benefit to the country as a whole. Possibly medicinal and other such products could be provided for export.

In introducing the Bill, I think the Parliamentary Secretary said that it was for the purpose of manufacturing compound feeding stuffs. That suggests to me that these are not sold as dried grass meal as it is marketed at present but that they could be made into concentrated feeding stuffs and sold as cake, nuts or some similar product. At present, grass meal on the market is mostly dried grass meal and is sold as powder in bags.

The question of the commercial manufacture of chlorophyll is of very great interest also, and I think that the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the figure of £500,000 which will be required to establish such a factory. That seems to me a very big figure for such a product, whatever its future may be. From advertisements we see how chlorophyll is being used as an addition to toothpastes: four or five years ago, however, nothing at all was heard about chlorophyll. A chlorophyll factory may be a project which would be possible of development, but one would feel wary about it considering that it would cost £500,000 to build such a factory.

Senator O'Callaghan mentioned that the dried grass meal feeding compounds would be comparable to feeding grass in the winter time, but there is the possibility of the dried product not containing the same vitamins as the green grass eaten fresh by the animal. I do not believe that the dried grass would be of equal feeding value as far as vitamin content is concerned compared with the grown grass eaten by the beast, because there is bound to be a certain amount of vitamins lost in the processes of drying and powdering which are entailed in manufacture.

Another point on which I am anxious to seek information is the type of grasses being sold. Senator O'Callaghan referred to Cocksfoot grass as being the strongest and deepest rooted. I do not know what grasses are suitable and are at present being utilised on these magnificent green fields that Senator Baxter saw when he travelled down to the demonstration bogland of the Irish Sugar Company. There must be, I presume, grasses that will produce sufficient root to bring out humus on the surface of the bog, because there is actually no clay and you have a superabundance of dry, dead vegetable matter. The best grasses to grow will be ones which through their root system will produce nutritious compost for their growing.

Mr. Baxter

They are living on the artificials put into the bog.

Mr. S. O'Donovan

So it is only on the artificial that the grass is growing. It has to produce a surplus which will be utilised for the growing of other crops, such as beet and the other root crops mentioned. That shows that grass must be produced for some years in order to give the requisite surface. I was seeking, Senator Baxter, when you were out, to know what are the most suitable grasses being used at present so that we might have better knowledge and greater hope of the success of this experiment. As I see it, most people regard the measure as providing suitable and beneficial employment for the people of the undeveloped and congested areas.

When we succeed in turning these 2,000 acres of bog into good, arable land, I think that what we intend to do then scarcely arises, but, yet, it is one of the questions which occurs to the person considering this Bill. I think that some Senators referred already to whether it would be best to graze animals upon this grass or use it in some other way than simply cutting the grass and drying it.

The other problem is this, that when we have 2,000 acres of new land added to the country, are we just to set it out in parcels of 20, 30 or 40 acres, as the case may be, to new residents? I do not think that we can picture utilising it in that way because you, possibly, would have to pile-drive into the bog in order to get suitable foundations for houses and outhouses. Therefore, the picture I see is something of a communal village with strip grazing of pastures. In a communal or co-operative system working something like 500, 1,000, or bigger areas of these boglands, I suggest you cannot picture placing individual tenants on holdings, because you cannot build a cottage on 12 or 14 feet of bogland no matter how long you leave it to settle——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should try to concentrate on a picture of Bangor-Erris.

Mr. S. O'Donovan

I am trying to illustrate the particular interest of the whole subject and congratulate Senator Baxter for taking the line of approach which I did not anticipate from him, because there is so much demand for development and spending money on farming in other areas, and in this measure it is simply being spent on making bogland productive.

It is natural that the measure should be dealt with by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government because I think the Minister for Agriculture would be wary of taking over a project like this when he could be asked why he was not spending this money satisfying the demands of other sections of the farming community.

Seán Ua Guilidhe

It might be of interest to Senator O'Donovan to know that at the foot of the Knockmealdown mountains in County Tipperary the preparation of dried herbs has been going on for some years past. The people in that area have been very fortunate inasmuch as in their spare time they go out collecting herbs all over the mountainside and for them it realises a very nice amount of pocket money because the smallest children can do the work as well as the adults. It enables these families to amass a considerable amount of money.

If I do not misunderstand the Parliamentary Secretary, he has stated that the cost of working the dried grass plant would be about £150,000.

Mr. Lynch

The £150,000 is capital provided for the drainage of the bogland.

Seán Ua Guilidhe

There is a dried grass factory not very far from where I live in Dungarvan and the machinery is quite simple. The grass is cut, dried and ground into meal in a two or three hours' operation. The operation is very, very simple and the machinery is not in any way complicated, and the rest of the work is done with ordinary grass cutters. The grass is then taken immediately it is cut and brought to the driers and it is then ground into meal right away. There should be no great difficulty in establishing further stations in various parts of the West.

Mr. O'Rourke

May I ask, a Chathaoirligh, if the Local Government Bill could be adjourned until next Wednesday? I have a reason for making that request.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there agreement on that matter?

Mr. O'Higgins

I understand that Senator Commons has an amendment down and in his absence I do not think that we could go on.

Mr. O'Rourke

I am merely asking if it could be adjourned until Wednesday next.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps the Parties could have some understanding about the matter and we could allow the Parliamentary Secretary to finish on this measure now.

Mr. S. O'Donovan

It is quite possible that the Parliamentary Secretary could get in now, and then we could go on with the Local Government Bill to-night.

An Cathaoirleach

In the meantime, perhaps the Parties could have discussion on the matter.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I welcome this Bill, principally for the reason that it is an effort to assist the people of the Bangor-Erris district, people whom we should make a real endeavour to help. I cannot, perhaps because I have not sufficient knowledge of the scheme, express the hopes or the views of Senator Baxter as to what the ultimate success of this scheme will be. However, I am quite prepared to support the Bill in the hope that it will be a wonderful success, and I believe that it should have normal success. I believe it is in the nature of a scheme which could be run profitably and which could provide a great deal of employment for the people in Bangor-Erris and improve the land there considerably.

There are one or two matters on which I would like some assistance from the Parliamentary Secretary. The Title of the Bill provides, in the main, that the scheme is designed for the drainage and cultivation of the boglands in the Bangor-Erris area. In regard to clause 7 of the Bill, in my view it deals only with the carrying on of this work in the Bangor-Erris area, but nowhere else in the State. If I understand the Bill aright, the intention is to deal solely with the Bangor-Erris area, and if that is the case, I think that clause 7 might be amended to provide specifically that the object of the Act would be to carry out this cultivation work in Bangor-Erris, but there is a sub-clause which provides that the memorandum of association of the company shall be in such form consistent with this Act.

I was troubled to see it implied in the clause that the object of the company would be to develop the work in Bangor-Erris area, and I would like the Minister to indicate if it was intended that the work would be confined solely to that area. Clause 9 provides that the memorandum of association might not be altered in any way whatever without the approval of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, after consultation with the Minister for Finance. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that we in the Oireachtas should have some say in the alteration of the memorandum and articles of association. After all, it is we here who are giving permission for the formation of this company. We are giving permission for the formation of the company for a particular reason.

If the memorandum and articles of association of the proposed company may be altered without reference to us, we shall have the position that the company's objects and memorandum can be altered without our consent, and in that way it might be enabled to carry out a completely different work from that for which we are giving permission. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that the memorandum and articles of association of the company should not be altered without the consent of the Oireachtas. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to give consideration to that point.

Clause 11 provides, in effect, that the Minister may take steps to enter into competition with a concern engaged in similar operations by way of private enterprise. There is some proviso here that the Minister will do that only after very careful consideration. Here again we have the State considering that it will engage in competition with all the resources of the State behind it against an individual. I think that that right if given to the State by this Bill should be carefully watched and carefully exercised by the Minister. That section provides that before a licence will be given to the company to compete against private enterprise, that that fact will first be published in Iris Oifigiúil.

With all due respect, I must say that people engaging in private enterprise seldom see Iris Oifigiúil and I presume that that publication is provided for in order that those so engaged might make representations to the Minister. To provide for publication in Iris Oifigiúil you might as well in my view say that the advertisement should be published in Pravda or Isvestia, if it still exists, as to put it in Iris Oifigiúil which is just a series of typescript pages tied together and which are sent to the editors of newspapers and to administrative offices. Legal practitioners sometimes must buy it to vouch for advertisements which appear in it every Tuesday and Friday, but to suggest that publication of such a notice in Iris Oifigiúil will bring it before the public is sheer nonsense.

I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should consider amending the Bill to provide that such a notice as published in Iris Oifigiúil which, I say, is not read by more than 50 people, should be published in the Dublin newspapers which circulated throughout the country. If he does so, he will then ensure that any intention of the Minister to give an extended licence to the company will receive due notice from those engaged in private enterprise. I suggest that it is useless to have the provision in the Bill that this notice must be published in Iris Oifigiúil if it is not to be published in the daily newspapers. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give serious consideration to that matter.

I welcome this Bill and, as I have stated, I do not know sufficient about the project to envisage the future of which Senator Baxter has spoken. I was impressed by what Senator Commons said as to what should be our approach to this concern. It may be a very great success or it may disappoint us all, but I feel that if only it will do something in any small way to improve the position of the people in the Bangor-Erris district and their properties, any money the State will spend on it will be very well spent.

Mr. Lynch

I am glad that the introduction of this measure brought a degree of harmony between members on both sides of the House where, I am told, it did not formerly exist. I am sure, however, that despite what Senator O'Callaghan has said, it is not the first measure to produce this degree or harmony. There were, during the passage of the Bill in the Dáil, a few discordant notes, but I would say that even in its short life in the Dáil, support for the Bill was growing and there was quite a degree—although not perhaps a full degree—of support for it when it left Dáil Eireann.

I want to assure Senator Commons that I do not want any undue enthusiasm about this measure. Senator Baxter has been enthusiastic about it beyond my expectations. But if there is that necessary modicum of cooperation and goodwill, it will satisfy me that at least we are approaching the work that this company is being set up to do from the proper point of view.

I want to correct an impression right away that might have been created by the contributions of some Senators. This is not primarily an employment-creating measure. I have stated here and also in the Dáil that the primary object of the Bill is to experiment with the drainage and the cultivation of bogland, to make it more productive and to make more land available for production purposes in the country. There will be quite a degree of employment given, but nevertheless it must be stressed, in fairness to any people who might be expecting a big volume of employment, that that is not envisaged. But there will be a considerable degree of employment available, as naturally there must be when drainage of an area of the magnitude of 2,000 acres is involved.

I am glad, however, that Senator Baxter spoke with such warm approval not so much of the Bill perhaps as of the idea behind it, that is, the bringing into production of land hitherto practically valueless. It is commendable that he took the trouble to visit the area. Ballyforan, I think he mentioned, but I know it as Gowla Bog, on which Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann, Teoranta, are at the present time conducting experiments. The object of the experiments is to provide land on which beet may ultimately be grown for the production of sugar. In carrying out these experiments it was found that grass could be grown in sufficient quantities to justify the establishment in the location of a grass dryer for the production of grass meal. I am informed that the protein content of grass produced there is very high and compares more than favourably with grass produced elsewhere.

Senator Baxter suggested that other members of the House might, with profit, undertake a visit to the area as he has done. During the debate in the Dáil, I suggested to Deputies that there was in existence a film showing the progress made in the area during the last 12 months. I saw the film and was frankly amazed that what was virtually a swamp was converted into good land within one year—land in which I saw in the picture heavy cattle grazing, and sheep which increased their weight while grazing in the bog at the rate of 2 lb. per week, which I believe is a very high rate of increase. That film can be shown at short notice, and if any Senators would like to see it, I am sure that a phone call to the headquarters of Comhlucht Siúicre Eireann in Clare Street would be sufficient to have a showing arranged. It will save many Senators, who might like to visit the bog but have not the time, the necessity of undertaking the journey to it. I can assure you that seeing that film will be worth while and will be a good indication of what can be done.

Senator Baxter also suggested that consideration should now be given to the utilisation of bogland in the future, and suggested that at some time— maybe in five or ten years—we might consider that the cutting of turf from our bogs is a wasteful process and that a more useful method might be employed for bringing the soil into good heart for the production of grass and for the grazing of cattle. It often occurred to me that, with the development of science, perhaps other uses might be found for our peat resources, and I am sure that, with the experiments being carried out by Bord na Móna, if there are other uses to which peat can be put they will readily be discovered.

He suggested also the setting up of an organisation that might undertake that examination, but I suggest to him and to the House that the setting up of the organisation envisaged by the Bill would be a sufficient start to make in that direction. The employment of foreign experts to give us the advantage of their experience on the production of grass seed was suggested also by him but was not supported by Senator O'Callaghan, who suggested that we should develop our own brains.

While both Senators were talking, I got thinking on a subject that has often occurred to me. I think too much time and public money and private individual's money is wasted on the type of higher education in this country that is of little advantage to the individual who acquires it or to the country as a whole. I have often thought that if our universities could provide a kind of utility higher education, more education in the different forms of science, it would be of far more advantage not only to agriculture but to our industrial progress as well. However, I have no set opinions as to the difference between importing brains and producing them at home. I think a little of both is necessary. There are experts abroad whom we can use with advantage in this country and we can also send our own products abroad in order that they might become more expert in whatever fields they choose.

With regard to the suggestion by Senator Baxter in relation to the putting of live stock on these drained boglands as part of the process of producing grass, I am not sure that the terms of the Long Title of the Bill would preclude this. In any case, I mentioned in my opening statement that it might take two or three years before the bogs would be properly drained. In the preliminary stages, other methods of disposing of the crops might be considered necessary and I am sure one of the methods which the company will take into consideration is the feeding of live stock on drained bogland as the grass is being grown.

Senator Quirke suggested that more consideration should be given to the utilisation of cutaway bog. I think it is readily realised already that cutaway bog can and does grow good grass and in many cases grows timber; but the question is whether, as Senator Baxter rightly observed, that cutaway bog could be properly drained. In deep bog there can be uniformity of draining that would not be possible at all in cutaway bog.

Senator O'Higgins and Senator O'Reilly referred more to the technical aspects of the Bill. I mention them together because Senator O'Higgins's notes are the next on my list. He suggested that no member of the Dáil or Seanad should be a member of the board. It is the intention that no member of the Dáil or Seanad should, in fact, be a member of the board, but there is no provision in the Bill precluding that. He asks me to give consideration to that point before the next stage is reached and I promise to do so. I do not suppose he will take my assurance that it is the intention not to appoint members of the Oireachtas on the board and that that will not be done. However, that is a matter for himself.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

It might be done by some other Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Lynch

He also suggests that the Minister should not have the complete power of removal of a member of the board, as he virtually has in this Bill. The Bill provides that he can do so only after consultation with the Minister for Finance. He basis that suggestion on the assumption that, if a member of the Board suggests a line of policy which does not coincide with the Minister's, that might be good and sufficient reason for his removal by some future Minister who might not examine these matters from proper motives. However, it is not the Minister's intention—and I think the terms of the Bill adequately provide for it—to interfere in the ordinary policy of the board. Therefore, it is not likely that the Minister will have any knowledge of a particular member's ideas with regard to the carrying out of the policy of the board. I do not think the Senator need have any fears on that score.

Mr. O'Higgins

I may be wrong—as I have not a copy of the Bill here—but I do not think the Bill provides that there must be a good and sufficient reason for the removal.

Mr. S. O'Donovan

Is it not good and sufficient reason that the Minister provides all the money?

Mr. Lynch

There would be a practical difficulty in including such a provision.

Mr. O'Higgins

It is in the Undeveloped Areas Act, where the same point arose.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

And in the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill.

Mr. Lynch

It is a matter that can be looked into. I have not any preconceived ideas about it, but I know there is the intention at present not to interfere with the policy of the board, that it is unlikely that the Minister would have any particular knowledge of what has happened or would at least have made up his mind that the policy the board intends to pursue is not his policy and therefore some member or members of the board should be removed.

Senator O'Higgins and Senator O'Reilly referred to Section 11, the licensing section. Senator O'Higgins said that, if the existing company were unable to produce to a sufficient extent, consideration should be given to providing that company with whatever assistance would be necessary to get the equipment or means of expansion that seemed fit. I do not think it would be wise in this Bill to introduce such a provision, since the area of operation of this company is in the undeveloped areas, that is, in the West of Ireland. It is likely that any new line of development envisaged would be one where the location would be in the West of Ireland and not anywhere else.

I would remind Senators of the facilities available under the Undeveloped Areas Act. If a company is in existence in the undeveloped area, there is provision in that Act to procure assistance, provided that there are certain competitive disadvantages, if that assistance is likely to expand production and give more employment. If there is not such a company in existence, the benefits of the Act are still available for the setting up of a public company. From that point of view, I do not think it would be wise to introduce a similar provision in this Bill.

Senator O'Reilly referred to the licensing provision as giving a licence to the Minister—I presume he meant the company—to compete with private enterprise. The very spirit and wording indicates that it is not to compete with private enterprise that the provision is there. It clearly says: "Wherever the Minister is of opinion that (a) a product to which this section applies is not being manufactured in the State by means of private enterprise, or is not being so manufactured to a substantial extent, and (b) it is desirable that such product should be manufactured in the State to a substantial extent," the granting of a licence may be considered by the Minister. It is clear from that that there is no suggestion whatever of competing with private enterprise. The provision is there simply to enable the company to embark on production of some commodity which it is obvious should be produced to some extent or to a more considerable extent in the country. Therefore, there is no ipso facto element of competition in it at all. The intention is to provide production in a line which is either insufficiently provided for or is not provided for at all.

Before I depart from these technical points, I would like to deal with one other point which Senator O'Reilly raised, that the memorandum or articles of association should not be altered without the consent of the Oireachtas. This Bill is drafted on the lines of similar Bills setting up State-sponsored companies. I do not know whether there are provisions in those Acts for the Oireachtas to be informed or to be given the opportunity to comment or to legislate for changes in the articles or memorandum of association, but that is a matter which I can look into.

With regard to publication in Iris Oifigiúil of the Minister's intention to grant a licence under Section 11, I think that publication must be considered reasonable and sufficient. It was a point raised by Deputy Sweetman in the Dáil during the course of the Second Reading. I promised the Deputy then I would consult the Minister and get his point of view on it. I subsequently consulted the Minister and his point of view coincided with mine, that publication in Iris Oifigiúil was sufficient. It is an official document and I feel that, practically speaking, anybody who is engaged in the production of a commodity, or interested in any way in its production, will very soon come to know of any intention by this proposed company of engaging in the production of a similar commodity.

Mr. O'Higgins

Would it not be reasonable to provide that notice be posted by the company to whatever other company is in production of the article?

Mr. Lynch

Sub-section (3) of Section 11 contains the phrase: "in such other manner as appears to him calculated to bring his intention to the knowledge of persons interested".

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

He could do that by putting a notice in the daily papers, as I suggest.

Mr. Lynch

The enabling provision is there for him, anyhow.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

If we were told that that could be done, we would be satisfied. It may be the practice of the Department to do that—I do not know.

Mr. Lynch

The practice is to write to the individual firms known to have any activities in that particular development. I think that, in practice, there are several safeguards.

Senator Goulding made reference to the picking of herbs and their commercial utilisation, and, during the course of the debate in the Dáil, I referred to that aspect. I drew the Long Title to the notice of the Dáil, in which it is stated that the company may grow other plants on the bog, and I instanced medicinal and aromatic herbs as examples of the type of plant I had in mind. I have been reliably informed that spearmint and peppermint, which are extensively used in medicinal preparations, are very successfully grown on bogland.

I referred also to a plant which I told the Dáil I had been informed could be sold at £1 per lb. weight. There was some public comment on it afterwards. I was slightly wrong in the price I gave as the value of the lb. weight of that plant. I believe that, after some little degree of processing, the plant is worth £1 per lb. weight, but that the value of it in its raw state is not very far short of £1 sterling for a lb. weight. I have been asked by some people to disclose the name of that plant since. I was given it by a person who is associated with the company engaged in the processing of those plants. It was given to me in confidence, and at this stage I naturally would not wish to betray his confidence without his consent. The Sunday Independent last Sunday referred to it with some levity, and, much as I enjoy a little levity now and again, I am not going to say whether or not the plant described in that article is the plant to which I refer.

Senator O'Donovan raised a number of points and in particular he wondered whether the grass meal, as produced by the company, would be sold in that state as grass meal. At present, I believe the bulk of grass meal is sold to animal feeding stuff compounders. There is a little sold in its own state, for itself, and I believe it is fed to poultry, because its protein content is higher than that of the compound feeding stuff itself. I believe it is very valuable for the feeding of poultry.

Senator P.F. O'Reilly made a point about the location and said that, since Bangor-Erris is provided for as the locus operandi, he wondered whether the work could be done anywhere else. I do not know if he knows the area concerned, but, if he does, he will agree with me that there is a vast area of bog there, an area of bog such as I believed could not exist before I saw it. The Bangor-Erris area embraces a barony and there is a sufficiently wide range of territory there to enable the company to move around, if new development is necessary.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I wanted it made clear that the company will operate only in the Bangor-Erris area.

Mr. Lynch

Under the terms of the Bill, they may acquire land only in that area, but I want to assure the Senator that the Bangor-Erris area is, in my opinion, sufficiently wide to give them ample locomotion powers.

Mr. P.F. O'Reilly

I agree.

Mr. Lynch

I should like to thank Senators for the manner in which they approached the Bill and for the suggestions made by them in good faith and in a spirit of helpfulness.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 18th March.