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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Feb 1954

Vol. 43 No. 6

Intestates' Estates Bill, 1953—Second Stage (Resumed).

I was pleased generally at the way in which this Bill was received, but I would like to point out that it was originally intended not to make very many changes in the present Act. When I brought the Bill in first, I was providing £2,000 for the widow. That was in or about the value of the £500 under the 1890 Act. The method of valuing real property did not suit the present time—it was 20 times the poor law valuation—and we decided to make it the market value. It was also provided that in the case where a person died without next-of-kin, instead of the State taking a share of the residue the widow gets all of it. That is all we intended to do.

In the other House, it was pointed out that £2,000 was not enough, that it ought to be £4,000, and I gave way there. I have gone as far as I think I ought to. The idea is that where a childless widow is left she ought to enjoy moderate comfort and that is about all £4,000 would do. However, if a person wants to leave her everything he can make his will. If he does not make a will we can assume that the husband wished to consider other relatives. If he is a young man he might have a mother in very necessitous circumstances or an invalid brother or sister. He could have provided for them in his will if he wished to do so, but we assume he knew what the law was. If he made no will, we assume that he did not wish to leave the other persons out. There are 40 per cent. or more people in this country who do not make wills at all. They do not all do it through carelessness. A great many do it because they know exactly what the law is and what is likely to happen if they die.

In the debate, we had two almost opposite points of view. The majority of Senators thought that the widow should get everything. That was, more or less, the point of view of the urban people but we had the rural point of view expressed by Senator O'Dwyer, Senator Hartnett and a few others. They thought that once the widow got the life interest in the farm that that was really all she ought to get and that the farm should go to the husband's people on her death. I do not think that would be fair either, because in the case of a small farm there would not be very much value in a life interest. What we decided to do was to give the whole lot to her if the farm was valued up to £4,000. But that is a big improvement on what the position was.

There is also the point that if the wife dies the husband gets all her estate. That is not fair either. If one gets the benefit of it the other should get it also. However, that is another day's work, to make it the same for the wife as for the husband but in this Bill we are only dealing with childless widows. I do not think we ought to go any further than we have gone in this matter. I suppose we will have amendments and we can debate them. However, this is working for about 60 years now and there have not been very many complaints as far as I know about the way it operates.

A few questions were asked by Senators. Senators O'Reilly asked two questions. The first was whether the values mentioned in Section 4 (2) were gross or net values. The answer is that they are net values as have been judically determined and as expressed in the Act of 1890. This is a very difficult legal question. The other question was what was the meaning of the expression: "the gross amount of any mortgage." The gross amount of any mortgage is the principal, interest and charges, in other words, the amount that has to be paid to redeem the mortgage.

Senator Jessop raised a question about life interest. The only life interest that is referred to in this Bill is another life. A person might have the lease of the life of another person, perhaps some important person like a young prince in England. If someone had a life interest in that, it could survive after the person who had that interest; what would happen then would depend on the settlement after the wife's death. The only life interest referred to here is another life, not the life of the widow.

Question put, and agreed to.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 10th March, 1954.
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