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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jul 1954

Vol. 44 No. 1

Election of Cathaoirleach.

Tairgim:—

Go dtoghfar an Seanadóir Pádraig Baxter mar Chathaoirleach, agus go raghaidh sé anois i gceannas an tSeanaid.

Táimse á dhéanamh san mar is dóigh liom gur duine oiriúnach an Seanadóir Baxter de bharr an taithí atá aige ar chúrsai parlaiminte agus an t-eolas atá aige ar gach saghas gnóthaí poiblí le níos mó ná deich mbliana fichead.

The Chairman of this House has a very important duty to perform. He should have an understanding of parliamentary procedure and of parliamentary practice, a grasp of principles, a capacity to give judgment and, when he has given his judgment, to adhere to it. At the same time, of course, a Chairman must give fair play to all Senators, recognising everybody's rights, while not allowing anybody to go too far. These duties are rather difficult to perform at times, but it seems to me that Senator Baxter, from his experience and his knowledge and his temperament, is admirably suited to take that post. He has had here more than 30 years' experience of parliamentary life and he has also experience of local and central government. He has, I think, the patience and the good temper necessary for a Chairman and, apart from the work he has done since the foundation of this State, he had previous association with the movement which finally resulted in the foundation of this State and of this Parliament.

Senator Baxter belongs to a generation which went to school before Irish was taught either as well or as generally as it is now but, like many of that generation who were active in the national movement, he learned some Irish after leaving school and succeeded in learning some more in an internment camp in 1921. Internment camps acted to some extent as schools or universities. He has always been interested in Irish and has a certain knowledge of the language but has not acquired the capacity to speak it as fluently as he would wish.

Senator Baxter was a member of the Gaeltacht Commission, 1925 and has gone to great pains to understand the economic problems of these areas. He has represented Ireland frequently abroad and has been for four years Chairman of the Economic Committee of the inter-Parliamentary Union.

It seems to me, Sir, that Senator Baxter has the qualities which would make up a good Chairman. He would be patient but firm and he would have a grasp not only of the principles of procedure but also of the details which, of course, must be understood too. He would, I think, give fair play to everybody.

I, therefore, propose him in the confidence that he has good judgment, good temper and common sense and in the confidence also that he will do credit, if you see fit to elect him, to himself and to the House. I move, Sir.

I rise to oppose the motion. I agree with what Senator Hayes has said that the position of Chairman of this House is a very important one. I agree with several of the things which Senator Hayes has said about Senator Baxter, as to his knowledge of procedure and his experience. His good temper, I was a little bit doubtful about but, however, we will pass that.

I should like to say at the outset that, so far as Senator Baxter is concerned, I have nothing personal against him and I think very few people here have, but I would say that, in his speech in support of Senator Baxter's appointment as Chairman, Senator Hayes has very gracefully glided over the one thing which many of us here regard as important, that is, the knowledge of the Irish language. I am quite prepared to accept the explanation, if we may call it an explanation, given by Senator Hayes as to why Senator Baxter has not the knowledge of Irish. When I say "the knowledge of Irish" I mean the knowledge of Irish which would be necessary to enable a man to perform his duties as Chairman of this House properly. It is perhaps no fault of Senator Baxter's that he has not that knowledge; it is, perhaps no fault of mine that I have not that knowledge of the Irish language, but that does not take away from the fact that neither he nor I nor several other people here, with all those admirable qualities such as capacity for giving good judgment, good temper, experience, knowledge of procedure, and one thing and another, have not that knowledge of Irish.

I think I am quite reasonable when I say that because of his lack of that knowledge of Irish, Senator Baxter is not a suitable man to occupy the position of Chairman of this House and I put it to the members of the House that it would be quite unfair that such a man should be appointed Chairman of this House. We have in this House several people who have a first-class knowledge of the Irish language. The Irish language is one of the two official languages of this State. Any Senator has a right to speak in the Irish language in this House and, if he speaks in the Irish language, it is only normal that the man who would occupy the position of Chairman should know what he is talking about. Senator Baxter, I think, will himself admit that he is not in a position to know what a man is talking about if he speaks in the Irish language.

A Senator who speaks in the Irish language is entitled to question the Chairman on matters of procedure. Is the proposed Chairman in a position to reply to such a question? I say he is not. The duty of the Chairman is to keep the House in order, to keep the various members of this House within the lines, so to speak. If I stand up and if I am speaking in English and if Senator Baxter happens to be occupying the position of Chairman, I am quite sure he is fully capable of keeping me in order. There would not be much difficulty in doing that. But, I have the right to speak. He has the right to question me. He has the right to tell me when I am out of order. If, when I sit down, another Senator, say, Senator Kissane, makes a speech in Irish, he may repeat word for word what I have said. The Chairman may look. Somebody may give him a wink to indicate to him that Senator Kissane is out of order but in actual fact the Chairman is in no position to know. To my mind a man in that position would be in an impossible position. I think he would agree, before he would be very long in the Chair, that he was in a position which was impossible to hold.

As I said at the early stages, I have nothing personal against Senator Baxter, but I do say that it is absolutely essential that a man in the position of Chairman must have, not merely a slight knowledge of the Irish language but a good knowledge of the Irish language, a good working knowledge of the Irish language to the extent that he is able to know what any speaker is talking about, that he is able to tell a man that he is out of order if he is out of order and that he is in a position to answer any questions that he is asked in the Irish language so long as he occupies the position of Chairman.

Senator Baxter, as far as my knowledge of him goes, and as far as we have had an admission from Senator Hayes, who is his proposer, has not that knowledge and, on that basis, on a matter of principle, I and those associated with me here propose to oppose the motion that he be elected Chairman of this House.

In conclusion, I would like to be brief. I made a speech something like Senator Quirke's speech in April, 1938, with the difference that I made it in Irish, and Senators who care to examine the matter can read the debates at the first meeting of the newly-constituted Seanad in April, 1938, and see that I expressed certain views on the question of the Chairman. I proposed at that particular moment a member of the House whose knowledge of Irish and whose capacity to use it for all purposes was beyond all question. He was rejected by the majority, led by Senator Quirke, and a Senator was put into the Chair who was a member of the Fianna Fáil Party, a friend of mine, and a very amiable personality, but he certainly did not know Irish.

Senator Quirke has told us that people's rights are interfered with if the Cathaoirleach has not got such a knowledge of Irish as will enable him to do his business. That, of course, has been disproved by a succession of Chairmen in this House. That particular Chairman, the first Chairman of the newly constituted House, was able so say to me in the presence of some of my friends opposite that he knew that I could embarrass him but that he also knew that I would not. I think Senators opposite will agree that I did not. In any event, the principles I put forward that the Cathaoirleach should not be a Party person, should not be changed with the changing majority in the House and should have a very good knowledge of Irish, were not accepted. Therefore, I am now following a precedent established by my friends opposite.

I should like to conclude by saying that there was never invented a more flexible slide-rule than the one which my friends opposite apply to the Irish language. I do not want to say that they are hypocritical but if you are a member of the Fianna Fáil Party, then everything else is added unto you —a national record, a competent knowledge of the Irish language for any post which the Fianna Fáil Party caucus think you ought to have. If you are not a member of the Party, a different rule is applied to you.

I could have made the position of the Cathaoirleach in this House extremely difficult over a pretty long period but I did not do so and I do not think it will be done in the future. If Senator Baxter is elected to the Chair—and I think he will be—nobody will be embarrassed and no Senator will lose his rights. It is a rather curious thing that I should be speaking on this side and that Senator Quirke should be speaking from the other, and that I should know Irish and that Senator Quirke does not. I am speaking as a realist with a genuine interest in the Irish language and a genuine love for the Irish language, but I have a very strong objection to it being used for party political purposes.

Mr. Quirke rose.

I think that as Senator Quirke has already spoken he has no right to speak again.

Who is to decide?

I do not know who is to decide, but we should observe some rules of order. A motion was made and the Senator has already spoken in opposition to it.

I just want to clear up one point.

The Senator, I suggest is not entitled to speak a second time.

Clerk

I shall now put the question.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá: 35; Níl: 20.

  • Barniville, Henry L.
  • Bergin, Patrick.
  • Burke, Denis.
  • Butler, John.
  • Carton, Victor.
  • Commons, Bernard.
  • Cox, Arthur.
  • Crosbie, James.
  • Crowley, Patrick.
  • Davidson, Mary F.
  • Fearon, William R.
  • Guinness, Henry E.
  • Hayes, Michael.
  • Hickey, James.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McCrea, James J.
  • McGee, James T.
  • McGuire, Edward A.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Meighan, John J.
  • Murphy, Dominick F.
  • O'Brien, George.
  • O'Connell, Thomas J.
  • O'Donnell, Frank H.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Prendergast, Mícheál A.
  • Purcell, Frank.
  • Reidy, James E.
  • Ruane, Seán T.
  • Sheridan, John D.
  • Stanford, William B.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Tunney, James.

Níl

  • Clarkin, Andrew S.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Dowdall, Jane.
  • ffrench O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Hartney, Seán.
  • Hawkins, Fred.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lynch, Peter T.
  • Ó Buachalla, Liam.
  • O'Callaghan, William.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Pearse, Margaret.
  • Quirke, William.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
  • Sheehy Skeffington, Owen L.
  • Smith, Matthew.
  • Teehan, Patrick J.
  • Walsh, Louis.
Tellers:—Tá: Senators Crosbie and S.T. Ruane; Níl: Senators Hawkins and Kissane.
Question declared carried.

Clerk

Iarraim ar an Seanadóir Baicstéar an Chathaoir do thógaint. I call on Senator Baxter to take the Chair.

Whereupon Senators rose in their places and remained standing while the Cathaoirleach proceeded to the Dais.

Standing beside the Chair, the Cathaoirleach addressed the House as follows:—

A Sheanadóiri, tá orm mo bhuíochas a ghabháil libh as ucht na honóra a bronnadh orm inniu. Geallaim díbh go ndéanfaidh mé mo dhícheall cothrom na féinne a thúirt do gach ball den tSeanad agus obair an ti a dhéanamh mar is ceart.

Colleagues, I deeply appreciate the honour the House has conferred on me to-day. I shall strive, in my capacity as Cathaoirleach, to do my duty to the House and to be just to you. In these days, when human institutions are being challenged because of the human frailties of their founders, it is the responsibility of all of us to labour as harmoniously as we can so that we may raise the prestige and maintain the honour of Seanad Éireann. Together I trust we shall achieve this le cúnamh Dé.

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