Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Dec 1954

Vol. 44 No. 5

Red Cross Bill, 1954—Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 5.

Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill."

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

I am sorry I was not here for the Second Stage, as there were some points I wanted to make. It is a pity the Minister has decided to allow the Red Cross to make charges at all. I do not think the question would have arisen but for the court case about the ambulance. In the case of the preventoria, I think it is a great mistake to allow them to charge at all. The whole success of the Red Cross has been based on its voluntary character, on the unselfish work which everyone associated with it has been willing to do without remuneration. Both preventoria—in Montenotte and in Ballyowen—have been able to carry on so far on the local authority contribution for their patients. The doctors give their services free and no one, apart from the nursing staff and catering staff, thinks in terms of remuneration. Once the Minister gives permission to charge for patients, the whole voluntary character is altered. Apart from that, the tuberculosis services at present are entirely free to the patients—there are no hospital payments, no contributions and no fees.

Apart from the fact that it will alter the character of the tuberculosis service, it will interfere with the fine concept of the Red Cross in itself. Once they are in a position to make a charge, many of these people giving voluntary service will begin to think in terms of fees, remunerations and salaries. It is a great pity that a commercial aspect should enter into the running of this institution which has been running so well so far.

Mr. Hickey

Does the Minister think that will be the position as mentioned by Senator ffrench-O'Carroll? I do not think that the giving of this liberty will influence those who are giving voluntary service or prevent them giving it in the future. As one with some connection with the Red Cross Society in Cork City and with the preventorium in Montenotte, I think Senator Crosbie very rightly paid a tribute to those medical men who have given service there. I do not think anything in this Bill will prevent that system from obtaining as long as the institution is there. I agree that, except for those members of the staff looking after the patients, the others do not get as much as one penny remuneration. We would all be very keen on maintaining that spirit. I would be glad to hear whether the Minister feels in the same way as Senator ffrench-O'Carroll. I would be surprised to hear that he does.

Mrs. Dowdall

I agree with Senator Hickey and differ with Senator ffrench-O'Carroll, that the securing of these moneys for the upkeep of the children has in any way altered the voluntary character of the work done by the preventoria. Senator Hickey and I know of the work in Cork. We know that the only people who are paid are the nurses, the domestic staff and the catering staff. The doctors do not receive any money and all the office work is done voluntarily.

Senator Hickey may not agree with me on this point, that we are receiving far too much per capita for the children. We get the same amount for them as is given for the adult patients in hospitals where you have patients getting surgical and medical treatment of a most expensive kind. The same amount is paid for tiny children who need only rest, nourishment and but little medical care. It might be suggested to the responsible Minister that the amount be increased for the adults and not reduced for the children; but it always struck me as an anomaly that the same should be paid for the children as for serious surgical work.

I do not know if I am right in bringing in here a request to the Minister for a firm assurance that in the running of this ambulance service the Red Cross will never get into competition with private enterprise. You had yesterday in Cork an excellent example of the proper use of Red Cross ambulances, when they rushed to Cobh with the military ambulances to assist in the dramatic sea rescues 40 miles out from our coast. They were waiting there all day. That is the sort of work that the Red Cross should be doing. Private enterprise ambulances, charging by the hour for delays like that, would be very expensive. That is Red Cross work and the Red Cross should restrict itself to that. I hope the Minister will never allow the society to get into competition with ambulances of companies earning their living by hospital work.

At this stage, I wonder if it would be in order to suggest to the Minister that he should encourage the Red Cross, as he has power to do, to develop the plan for the care of the aged, the technical name for which is geriatrics. I do not know if he can make money available for that, but I suggest he use his power to encourage them in every way to bring that plan to a head as soon as possible. Much talk and planning has gone on about it. I know it is not easy. A certain amount of work has been done in Dublin, but not anywhere else, so I would ask him to encourage the work in his influential way.

Minister for Defence (General MacEoin)

Before there is any further misapprehension on this point, may I say this section is to enable the preventoria to receive the moneys from the public health authority? If this power were not here, some fadist could take action to make them close down. I am making sure that the preventorium in Montenotte can continue without any fear of being brought into the High Court by someone who would say: "You are charging, because you are getting money from the local authority." There is no intention to change the type of service that is being rendered in Montenotte, but they will not be put to the trouble of a big law suit, as I am throwing the mantle of protection around them.

On the question of the ambulances, I was quite specific in that and I have adopted a very unusual course. I have submitted a draft of the Order which I intend to make and which will be laid on the Table of the House, to prevent competition with private concerns. I think everything is well under control and that the Red Cross will not at any time attempt to exploit this power. As the law stands at present, everyone who went out and rendered all these services to ships or anywhere else did so voluntarily but the people who received the service cannot make even a subscription to the Red Cross. They will have to wait for 12 months to see that no one could say it was a payment. Under this section the Red Cross can accept these subscriptions and send a receipt for the money received.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

Do I understand there is no question of charging the patients or their parents and that they will not be made make any contribution to the charges in the preventorium?

General MacEoin

If the Senator were here on the day I introduced the Bill, he would have heard me make that clear. This is to enable them to continue as they are doing at present and to prevent anyone from taking action against them to compel them to stop.

Mr. O'Donnell

I notice that under Section 6 the Minister is empowered to give directions by Order, which Order shall be laid on the Table of the Oireachtas. That Order becomes effective if, within 21 days, objection is not made to it. The trouble with papers laid on the Table is that scarcely anybody reads them.

General MacEoin

Shame!

Mr. O'Donnell

That is the position.

General MacEoin

Not at all.

Mr. O'Donnell

It can happen and does happen, as we all know. Ministers have laid Orders on the Table and they have never been discovered until some point relating to them comes up for discussion. In this case, the Minister makes an Order which may affect private enterprise, and the only way in which private enterprise can become aware of it is if some member of the House is sufficiently diligent to find the paper laid on the Table and then goes to the private concern and says it is going to be affected by it. I have no solution to offer as to how this could be overcome and how all Orders made by the Minister may become public property; but I think that where Orders are made by Ministers which affect private enterprise, they should get some other form of publicity than a mere laying on the Table, because, as I have said, quite truthfully, the majority of people in this and the other House do not read them.

General MacEoin

I should point out that we not only lay the Orders on the Table, but we advertise that they are for sale and they must be available for sale the day after I make them. If I make an Order to-day, it must be for sale in the Stationery Office to-morrow.

Mr. O'Donnell

I accept that.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 and Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

General MacEoin

In order to complete the agreement, two more Bills will have to be submitted before the agreement is brought up for ratification. Two further Bills will be necessary to complete our own domestic law relating to the Red Cross Convention.

Question put and agreed to.