Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Feb 1955

Vol. 44 No. 8

Private Business. - Agriculture (Amendment) Bill, 1954—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

This is purely a permissive Bill. Its purpose is to enable county councils, where they so wish, to raise an increased agricultural rate, not exceeding a total rate of 10d. in the £, for the service of the agricultural schemes operated by the county committees of agriculture.

The annual income at present available to each committee of agriculture consists of an agricultural rate of not less than 2d. in the £, nor more than 7d. in the £, and a State grant related to the amount of the agricultural rate.

The existing maximum agricultural rate of 7d. in the £ was fixed under the Agriculture (Amendment) Act, 1948. Since the enactment of that Act, all but two of the committees have obtained an agricultural rate higher than the former maximum which was 4d. in the £. Several of the committees are now in receipt of the existing maximum rate of 7d. in the £, and several others are in receipt of a rate of 6d. in the £ or higher. The income of the committees now receiving the maximum rate of 7d. is in nearly all cases smaller than the estimated cost of their agricultural schemes for 1954-55. This position has arisen mainly because county advisory personnel have had to be steadily increased in recent years to cope with the demands for their services by the farming community. At present the total number of advisory officers in the employment of the county committees is 269. In 1948 the number was 185.

Unless the committees now receiving the existing maximum rate of 7d. in the £, and others that in the meantime will go to that figure, are enabled to secure a larger income in the future, their schemes cannot be extended so as to include essential developments, and will indeed have to be curtailed. Such a contingency would be most regrettable having regard to the important functions devolving on the committees of agriculture.

The only solution of the difficulty is to amend the Agriculture Acts so as to empower the county councils, where they so desire, to raise an increased agricultural rate and to repeal the existing provision under which the maximum rate is fixed at 7d. in the £. The new maximum rate provided for in the Bill is 10d. in the £.

The Bill, as I have already said, is purely an enabling one. It does not impose any obligation on county councils to raise increased agricultural rates. It merely empowers them to do so if they so wish, or, in other words, it is being left to the county councils to decide for themselves whether they wish to exercise the additional power provided under this Bill.

Mr. Cogan

As this Bill seeks merely to provide county committees of agriculture with the necessary finance to carry on their services, I do not think that anyone in the House will wish to oppose it or deny the Minister all stages of it. The only question that arises is, perhaps, why there should be any necessity for such a measure. It is rather a strange thing that there is no ceiling whatever on rates, as far as other local services are concerned. County councils can strike a rate of 20/- in the £, 30/- in the £ or 40/- in the £ for other services but they are confined to statutory limits in regard to agriculture. I do not know why that should be. It does not, of course, cause very much inconvenience. I think the original upper limit was 4d. in the £. It was raised later to 7d. in the £ and it has been found necessary now to raise it to 10d. in the £.

I do not think the existence of a statutory limit either restricts or encourages county committees to expend money. It causes certain inconvenience to the Minister, who has from time to time to come into the Oireachtas and make requests for this power to enable committees to raise the rate. I am just raising the question as to why there should be any statutory limit at all.

It is hardly conceivable that farmers, who are already very rate-conscious, would be likely to demand such extensive services as would increase the rates out of all bounds. I do not think there is any possibility of that happening. As a matter of fact, farmers who are members of local authorities are very conservative in making demands which would increase expenditure, even when the benefit goes entirely to their own section of the community and to their own particular industry. Therefore, my feeling would be that the ceiling on rates for the Department of Agriculture should be removed altogether. However, that has not been considered necessary or desirable up to the present and I am not pressing the matter.

It may be wondered, perhaps, why there have been in recent years several substantial expansions of expenditure under this heading. The reason mainly is the expansion of agricultural advisory services—an increase in the number of advisory officers under the control of county committees. The Minister gave a figure which I think includes all advisory officers—poultry, horticultural and agricultural instructors.

I asked a question in the Dáil some time last year in regard to the number of agricultural officers, and I think at that time the number was given as 128. It had expanded in the few years previously and I think it has since been expanded. So far as agricultural advisers are concerned, they are increasing steadily in almost every county. In the county in which I am a member of the committee, there has been an increase over the past five years in the number of agricultural officers from one to four. That is to say, we have multiplied the number fourfold. That is in County Carlow, but I do not think the expansion has been as great in any other county. I think in that county we have possibly reached the maximum number that will be required. We have one agricultural instructor to every 800 farmers in the areas allocated to each officer. The Minister, presumably, had three parishes in mind when he was speaking, or probably fewer.

It is hard to regulate parishes in regard to counties because the boundaries do not coincide. I think there are only two parishes in the whole of my county having all their boundaries within the county area. We have allocated or allotted part of each area to each agricultural instructor and the system is working very satisfactorily. We are insisting on each agricultural instructor living within the area allotted to him. Sometimes difficulties arise in that matter but still it would be better to pursue it. I think, therefore, that it is necessary for other counties to follow the example of the County Carlow and to increase the number of officers, so that a small compact area will be allocated to each officer.

There is one question which arises in regard to this proposal to increase the rate and to the necessity which has arisen for increasing the rate. The Minister will recollect that a few years ago he intimated to the county committees of agriculture his intention to introduce a parish plan. Under that scheme he proposed that each three-parish unit would be allocated an agricultural adviser and that those officers would be paid directly by the Department. If that scheme was again to be introduced, it would probably mean a very considerable saving to the county committees and it would remove altogether the necessity for this Bill as the salary would probably be sufficient to meet all the expenses. Some of the county committees at that time pointed out the disadvantages in regard to the scheme—while it would save them a certain amount of money and while this money would have to be found by the central Exchequer, the scheme would also remove these officers from being under the direct control of the county committees and would place them under the direct control of the Minister.

That would seem to be highly undesirable. If a change in that respect is to be made, I think it would be absolutely necessary that local district committees or parish committees should be set up with statutory powers in regard to the local agricultural officer. The need for such local agricultural committees is apparent again at the present time. For example, if you have in a county four or five agricultural instructors, each with a small area allocated to him, it would be rather difficult for the county committee to keep in touch with each of those agricultural instructors and they may have contact with the county committee only through the county agricultural officer. Control by farmers or people engaged in agriculture would be somewhat far removed from those local agricultural officers.

It is true that each of them would be in close personal contact with individual farmers but, in addition to that, it would be desirable that there should be some local administrative body which would direct his activities, even if it was only from the point of view of the activities and efficiency of that local officer. It would be desirable that that officer should meet a committee that would have statutory powers and that he should make to it a monthly report of his activities and consult with it on schemes and ideas he would have for the coming months. Something in that direction should be introduced at an early date. It can be done by having a parish council in the parish and by giving that parish council certain statutory power in regard to the agricultural advisory service, or it can be done by setting up a district agricultural committee representative of the entire district, let it be just three parishes or whatever the area may be over which the agricultural officer may have jurisdiction. That is necessary if we are to have an official advisory service reaching into the most remote districts and available to every individual farmer, large or small.

The whole difficulty has been that the agricultural instructors never got to the majority of the farmers. The idea of one agricultural instructor covering an entire county was absurd. He reached only a very small number of the farmers and in many cases he very often confined his activities to the larger or perhaps the more efficient farmers, ignoring entirely the smaller farmers on the poorer mountainsides and on the poorer land generally. That position has been remedied to a great extent but, to make the position absolutely modern and efficient, it will be necessary to set up local agricultural committees, call them what you will, in every district and to have direct control over each local agricultural officer.

There is one other matter which perhaps does arise in regard to this Bill and that is the difficulty which agricultural advisers have in giving true advice to the average farmer in the conditions under which we live here. An agricultural adviser, if he is efficient and keeps up-to-date in regard to his profession, can advise a farmer how to grow the best crops, how to obtain the best yields and in regard to live stock in some respects. I am not disputing that, in all probability, his advice would be sound but he cannot make any attempt at advising farmers in regard to economics—in regard to the future prospect of any line of production in which the farmer is engaged. For example, he cannot tell the farmer that if he holds his cattle —it may be in the case of only a few cattle—for a month or two he will be adequately recouped. Very often, it is embarrassing to an agricultural instructor to go up on a farm and find that the farmer whom he had advised in the calf season to hold his cattle, has sold his cattle one or two months, or perhaps only a week, too soon. These things happen.

Again, it is embarrassing for the good ladies who look after the poultry to be told when they go into a farmer's homestead that the produce of the poultry department of the farm is absolutely worthless. It is rather discouraging for those instructors to try to give advice under such conditions. I know this is a very difficult matter. It is, of course, also embarrassing for the agricultural instructor who has advised a farmer in regard to the best methods of raising products for which there is a guaranteed price to find that the political head of the Department has glided gracefully, perhaps, into the Oireachtas wearing red feathers and a hula-hula skirt, to announce that the price of that particular commodity, whether wheat, milk, barley or anything else, has been drastically cut. The poor, unfortunate agricultural adviser has to bear the brunt of some of the criticism which farmers will voice when such a thing happens.

I feel that agricultural advisers as such, being appointed to advise the farmer in regard to the best methods of running his farm and give that advice in a voluntary way at the request of the farmer, should be in a position to inform the farmer in regard to economics. I do not think the Department tries to give their instructors up-to-date information in regard to the trends of markets or to the possibilities that there may be in any particular line of production. I think it is in that particular direction that the Department fails. They should advise their local agricultural instructors and keep them informed in regard to marketing practice and possibilities so that they could pass that information on directly to the farmer.

I think it is true to say it very often happens that the average farmer is much better informed in regard to the trend of matters than the agricultural instructor. That is something which should not happen. The agricultural instructor may be miles ahead of the farmer in regard to scientific knowledge, and his knowledge may be very useful, as most farmers are finding out, but in regard to economics generally, I think he falls very far behind the average farmer.

As far as we are concerned, we have no hesitation whatever in supporting this Bill which will provide additional finances for the local committees. The local committees are responding very well to the idea of increasing the advisory services. As a matter of fact, that is the main branch of their activities in which there has been a noted expansion of expenditure over the past few years. Most people will realise that it is the more desirable line because in the dissemination of up-to-date knowledge and its acceptance by the farming community, progress can be made.

It would be wrong to pass from this discussion without paying a tribute to the young farmers' movement—Macra na Feirme—which has certainly aroused amongst farmers, and particularly among the young farmers, a very ardent desire for increased knowledge on agricultural matters. That is a development we should commend, and it is one we hope will continue.

Mr. Murphy

I would like clarification on just one point. The Minister in his speech referred to an existing maximum of 7d. and to a new permissible maximum of 10d. The Bill, however, refers to an existing 5d. and a new maximum of 8d. I take it that there is a continuing minimum of 2d. all the time? That would explain the apparent discrepancy.

Mr. Dillon

There is a basic 2d.

Mr. Murphy

The Minister made it clear in his speech, but he spoke a little too quickly for me. If there is a basic 2d.—it has gone up progressively and is now growing to a possible maximum of 10d.—I take it the Minister is satisfied that the ever-increasing expenditure on agriculture has been made worthwhile by an increase in agricultural production? I thought that the money spent produced no worthwhile results, but do I take it the Minister is satisfied that more money will produce an improvement in the agricultural output of this country?

I was somewhat intrigued by Senator Cogan's advice that agricultural instructors should now go into a new field and advise the farmer in regard to economics and marketing. If he developed that line further, and asked the State to give advice on marketing as well as giving advice on growing and producing, then we from the Labour Benches would advocate a proper wage for the farmer because it seems to me that, at that stage, he would simply be a wage earner.

Mr. Burke

As this Bill was not passed without a discussion, I would like to say just a few brief words. I think that everybody in the country welcomes a Bill of this sort. Since this State was established, people who knew the agricultural problem lamented the state of agricultural education and lamented the lack of the ordinary farmer in Ireland in regard to the benefits of agricultural knowledge and the scientific approach. Let me touch on one point only—the innumerable services agricultural instructors can give the farming community in regard to the benefits that can be reaped through the application of manures and lime to the soil of Ireland. That alone would be a sufficient justification for the provision of a rate of 10d. in the £. This country is probably lowest in the purchase of fertilisers and the use of lime of any country in Western Europe. Much of the large amount of money that would have to be spent to bring us into line with the best countries in that respect, could be wasted were it not for the provision of the few paltry pence that it will be necessary to give to our agricultural officers in order to advise farmers in the proper fertilisers to use. Thereby we will save many pounds per acre on every one of our 12,000,000 acres of arable land.

I have a certain knowledge of agriculture and recently I reclaimed some land under the land project. A very large percentage of the bogland that is reclaimed in Ireland is usually acid. I found, when I had this land analysed, that in my case it was very strongly alkaline and for no cost I was able to put the proper manures on that land. It would probably cost three times as much if that service were not made available by our county committees of agriculture and our Department of Agriculture. On that one aspect of agriculture alone, the amount of money that would be spent on agricultural education in this country would, in my opinion, be repaid a hundredfold.

I am not going to follow Senator Cogan, because I do not think this is the proper place to debate agricultural policy and agricultural education in its widest sense. In my opinion, the young men who are working in agriculture in Ireland to-day appreciate the service which the Government is making available for them and they want more of it. It is going to be for the benefit of the nation, and I think we ought to give the Minister this 10d. In fact, sometimes I think I agree in a way with Senator Cogan that if a county feels it wants to spend more money on agriculture than the 10d. for the benefit of the county, it ought to be permitted to do so. I believe our county councils, composed largely as they are of farmers, are usually the watch-dogs of the ratepayers, and if they do propose to spend more than 10d. on agriculture, or suggest to the Minister for Agriculture that more should be given to them than that amount, they will only do so for a measure in which they may be interested, and if that money is spent it will benefit the nation as a whole.

Mr. Meighan

The terms of this Bill are very simple. It means just that county councils or committees of county councils which find that they would like to embark on further agricultural schemes and which find they cannot do so by having reached the maximum and so cannot go legally any further, will now have sanction for a further increase. I think that is about all that is in it.

With regard to other matters that have been brought in, I think that both the county committees and the Department of Agriculture are constantly in touch with them. I am not at present a member of the Roscommon County Committee, but I was a member for a number of years. The agricultural officer there at every meeting had a sheaf of correspondence from the Department; and vice versa. The minute our meeting was over, copies of everything that transpired at it were sent on to the Department. In that way the Department here in Dublin and the county committees throughout the country are kept constantly in touch. The chief agricultural officer has the duty to see that his subordinates do their duty and report back to the county committee when they meet. Senator Cogan need have no doubts at all. If it comes to the time when parish agents are appointed, he need have no worry about who is in—to my mind, it is equal who is in charge. They are under the Department of Agriculture and no matter what area they are working in there is certain to be a member of the county committee living not very far from them. Even if he is two or three miles away, there are neighbours and, if there is any wrong done, they will report it either to the chief agricultural officer or through a member of the county committee. Even if, as Senator Cogan says, he is in doubt and thinks that they have no control over those men, it is only natural that if I am a member of a county committee and if some farmer in my district has some complaint to make, whether we have control over them or not, so long as he is paid by the State and is an officer of the Department of Agriculture, any member of a county committee will feel it his bounden duty to bring that matter up. He will take steps to report it or bring it before a meeting of a county committee or else report it direct to the Minister. I feel sure that, irrespective of what Minister is in power, the Minister or the Department would take the necessary steps to have the matter investigated.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Ní mór atá agamsa le rá ar an mBille seo. Níl aon rud ann gur cheart dúinn cur ina choinne, mar tuigtear dúinn nach gan fáth atá an tAire ag tabhairt cead do na coistí talmhaíochta an méid airgid atá le caitheamh ar an tseirbhís go mbeadh baint acu léi a mhéadú chun tuille teagaisc a chur ar fáil do na feirmeoirí. Nuair a bhí an tAire ag caint, do bhíos ag cuimhneamh ar an scéim atá ar aigne aige chun teagascóir do chur ar fáil do gach trí paróistí sa tír. Ní fheadar nuair a bheadh an scéim sin ag obair an leor an méid airgid a bheadh le fáil faoin socrú seo chun na teagascóirí sin do dhíol, nó cé dhíolfaidh iad? Tá saghas tuairme agam go dtiocfaidh an t-am ansan nuair a chaithfidh an tAire—nó pé Aire a bheidh i réim an uair sin— teacht isteach arís chun cumhacht a thabhairt do na coistí áitiúla talmhaíochta a thuille airgid do chaitheamh faoin ráta, níos mó ná deich bpingne fán bpúnt.

Cuireann an Bille seo in iúl dúinn go bhfuil níos mó éilimh ag na feirmeoirí anois ar theagasc—agus is maith an rud é sin. Is cuimhin liom féin nuair a bhí mé óg, ná bíodh aon mheas ag a lán feirmeoirí ar aon teagasc a gheobhaidís ó na teagascóirí a bhí le fáil an uair sin. Do cheap a lán acu, is dócha, go raibh an oiread sin eolais acu féin is a bheadh ag na teagascóirí a bhí acu. Táimíd imithe i bhfad anois ón bhfásach sin agus is maith an rud é. Tá súil agam gur ag dul i méid a bheidh an teagasc ó lá go lá, mar ná fuilimid fós ag déanamh an oiread agus ba cheart dúinn chun eolas a chur ar táil do lucht saothraithe na talún. Is é ár ndualgas féin é sin a dhéanamh, agus tuigtear é sin. Mar atá, is orthu féin atá sé; is ar na feirmeoirí féin atá sé, le saor-thoil, an scéim a chur ar obair leis an méid airgid atá le caitheamh do réir dlí ar an tseirbhís seo.

Is minic a bhíos ag cuimhneamh air seo, gur ceart go mbeadh níos mó cur le chéile idir na coistí talmhaíochta agus na scoileanna gairm-oideachais maidir le teagasc a chur ar fáil do na feirmeoirí. Tá scoileanna gairm-oidis go foirleathan anois ar fud na tíre. Tá a lán de na scoileanna sin faoin dtuaith. Ní fheadar an bhféadfaí ceangal eigin do chur ar bun idir na coistí talmhaíochta agus na scoileanna sin, ionas go bhféadfadh na teagascóirí a bhíonn ag obair faoin Roinn Talmhaíochta, dul isteach sna scoileanna sin agus léachtaí a thabhairt ar chúrsaí talmhaíochta, ar cheisteanna a bhaineann le héanlaithe agus eile. Is dóigh liom go raibh an cheist sin faoi scrúdú uair agus ní fheadar cad a tháinig as nó ar tháinig aon rud as; ach ba mhaith liom go ndéanfadh an tAire machnamh ar an scéal san, d'fhonn is go mbeadh cur le chéile idir an Roinn Talmhaíochta, na coistí talmhaíochta agus na scoileanna gairm-oideachais, i slí is go mbeadh teagasc le fáil i sna scoileanna sin, de réir mar a bheadh oiriúnach ar na ceisteanna a bhaineann le saothrú na talún. Sin a bhfuil agam le rá ar an mBille seo.

Mr. Walsh

I, too, am glad that this Bill has come along in order to provide additional moneys for our committees of agriculture, particularly as I consider it is necessary to increase productivity from the land, to improve the quality of our produce and to reduce the incidence of disease amongst our live stock and crops. I consider, however, that there is a considerable amount of overlapping and duplication in connection with the administration of agricultural instruction in the country. If the Minister's parish plan will tend to obviate that by centralising administration and control either in the Department of Agriculture or in the committees of agriculture, I consider that savings could be effected in connection with travelling expenses and in administration generally.

The one point with which I am anxious to deal is this question of imposing the burden on the local authorities of raising additional moneys. It seems to me that the aim of the Bill is that the State will provide £1 for every £1 raised from the rates by the local authorities. We have that system operating under the Health Act and under the Vocational Education Acts, so that we are now reaching the stage when the burden placed on the ratepayers is becoming excessive in comparison to the burden borne by other classes of the community. After all, property holders and rated occupiers are the more responsible members of society. They are the people who have to maintain dependents—wives and families—of those who are not able to provide for themselves.

Yesterday, in my county, the county manager brought forward his rate estimate. It amounted to 46/7 in the £ as against a rate of 15/- in the £ approximately in 1939. After a considerable amount of paring and cutting the county manager's estimate was reduced to 41/- in the £. I feel, however, that on a rate of 41/- in the £ there may be a considerable debit balance at the end of the year. I am sure that the position with which we are faced in my county applies in every other part of the country.

The figures which I have given indicate that the rates have increased practically three-fold as compared to what they were pre-war. I do not think I am overestimating when I say that valuations on reconstructed buildings and on new buildings have gone up possibly two or three times, so that to-day the rated occupiers of these new buildings will be paying rates on them up to six and seven times what they were paying pre-war. In view of the fact that the bottle of stout is now 10½d. compared to 6d. pre-war, and that the packet of cigarettes is now 2/4 compared to 1/- pre-war, I suggest that there is no proportionate corresponding increase in the amount that has to be paid by the non-ratepayer.

I feel, therefore, that the Central Fund should provide a greater amount of the increase that may be required by the committees of agriculture, and that the burden imposed on them and on the local authorities should be reduced accordingly. I would suggest to the Minister that he should consider increasing the State allocation in the proportions of 75 to 25. I think that would be reasonable.

This question of the rates affects many different types of people. For instance, the average cottage in Donegal, built since the war, is now valued at between £7 10s. and £8. That means that the occupiers of cottages are to-day paying in rates £16 a year. In view of the other items to which I have referred, I consider that the ratepayer is required to pay much too great a proportion of the money which has to be expended by our local authorities.

Mr. L'Estrange

I welcome the Bill because I think that any money which it is proposed to spend on agriculture is money that is well spent when we consider that we have 12,000,000 acres of arable land and a population of only 2,500,000 people. In other words we have about five people for every arable acre of land. What was the position in the country as we found it in the period from 1939 to 1945 or 1946? We found that in this agricultural country many of our people were without butter, bacon and eggs and other necessaries of life, and all this in a country which, if our people had only been given the proper lead, the proper management and the proper instruction, should have been able to feed its own population up to a high standard, and which should have been able to export perhaps £30,000,000 or £40,000,000 worth extra of agricultural produce each year. I think we will have to admit that many of our farmers are conservative and lacking in initiative. As a farmer myself, I have to admit that farmers are inclined to say: "What was good enough for my father, will do me". Perhaps there are reasons for that. One of the reasons, I think, is that, in the majority of cases, it is the "dud" who is left on the farm. If there are four or five boys in a family, and two or three of them are fairly clever, the mother or father will say: "We will have to make doctors or solicitors out of the clever boys", and the poor boy with no brains is left at home. If things were right, the reverse would be the case.

The standard of living of every person in this State depends on what the farmers are able to get from the soil. Therefore, any money spent on educating the farmers to get more from their land is money well spent. We have the best markets in the world at our doorstep. I think it is the duty of agricultural instructors to go around and tell the farmers that and tell them also the proper time to market their cattle, the proper weight and the proper time at which pigs should be marketed because we will have to compete in future with other countries, like Denmark, in the live-stock market. Agricultural instructors are needed in every county in this country and the sooner the Minister's parish plan is put into operation, the better it will be for this country.

Mr. Hickey

I would like to know from the Minister if he is satisfied that he is getting the results he would like from the land. Personally I do not think he is. I do not agree with the last speaker that farmers are lacking in initiative. I think some of our farmers are the most hardworking people you would get in any country but I am inclined to think that the whole system of marketing and buying for the farmer is wrong. They are buying in a retail market and selling in a wholesale market. The sooner we begin to talk of working on a cooperative basis, the sooner we will get something done. I saw a statement recently from a man, who knew what he was talking about, that the increase in production since 1938 is not worth mentioning.

Mr. Dillon

Who said that?

Mr. Hickey

I will not mention his name. We are very far from the production we should be getting from 12,000,000 acres of arable land. There are many factors to be considered. In my own county the rates are going up by something like 3/- or 4/- in the £ and the county council paid £154,000 interest on money borrowed during the past 12 months. I can tell the Minister there is something seriously wrong when we are not getting greater production from the land than we have got for some years past.

Mr. Dillon

I am much obliged to the Seanad for the spirit in which they have received this Bill. I should like to allay some apprehensions expressed by Senator Murphy. Why does everybody in this country bewilder himself with the contention that the output of our agricultural land is static? That has become a kind of myth which flies from lip to lip in this country—that agriculture is stagnant. What are we living on? What is carrying the whole population in this country, if it is not the output of the land of Ireland? What is paying for the greater part of the imported raw materials that keep industrial employment on its feet in this country?

Do Senators realise that since 1948 the value of our exports of cattle has increased from £15,000,000 to £45,000,000? Do they realise that the export of sheep has increased from practically nothing to £2,000,000 a year and the export of pigs from £30,000 a year to £8,000,000 in 1954?

Do Senators realise that the yields of wheat, oats, barley, potatoes and beet have shown a steady upward trend throughout the whole of the country during the past ten years? Do they realise the extent of the improvement in the grass land of this country? Do they realise that from the point of having the lowest number of cattle, recorded in 1947, we have now the highest number of cattle ever recorded since statistics were first taken on the land?

A Senator

Would the Minister give us the pre-war position and the volume?

Mr. Dillon

I am not concerned very much with statistical procedure. What I am concerned with is profitable production from the land of Ireland. I do not think it would be relevant to go into a full discussion on agricultural production in this country on this Bill, but I hope to have an opportunity of discussing that at greater length with the Seanad on some other occasion. I want to assure Senators that the illusion that agricultural output in this country is stagnant or static is fantastic.

Mr. Hickey

What is the increase in volume?

Mr. Dillon

I should like to discuss that at length with the Senator but I would like him to familiarise himself with the figures I have mentioned so that he can join with me in rejoicing that the 11,500,000 acres of arable land are contributing in a far greater measure each year to the rising standards of living our people now enjoy. Instead of lamenting, I think sometimes we might give ourselves over to momentary rejoicing on surveying the whole world position, realising that this is not such a bad country to live in and that the people of this country are removing themselves more and more from poverty and destitution, largely as a result of the ever-expanding output of agricultural industry and of the men and women who work in it.

The question was raised as to why it was deemed expedient to have legislation of this kind limiting the right of local authorities to raise rates for a specific purpose such as for the committees of agriculture. I think the answer is in the original legislation which set up the whole system of the county committees of agriculture. It was provided that every £ raised by a local authority would automatically attract corresponding contributions from the Exchequer. Therefore, it is a means whereby the Oireachtas retains control. They give the local authority the right to raise a rate which will attract not more than the equivalent of 10d. in the £ from the Exchequer. Within that limit, the local authority has discretion but, if they want a larger contribution, they will have to come back to the Oireachtas for statutory authority such as is being provided in this amending Bill.

I do not think it expedient to go deeply into the question of the plans to be put shortly into action for the development of the parish plan, but I think it is fair to say that it is intended that parish agents work in close co-operation with the parish councils of Muintir na Tíre, which are purely voluntary bodies. There is a great deal to be said for keeping them so and for avoiding any attempt to make them into any sort of statutory bodies. Their voluntary character is one of their principal values, and I hope that each parish agent, working in close cooperation with the parish councils of Muintir na Tíre and the chief agricultural officers of the counties concerned, will do very useful work in helping farmers to get more out of their holdings than they have been getting up to the present.

I cannot imagine any occasion arising in which a parish agent would do any injustice to a farmer because he will be calling on the people without any police powers whatsoever. His sole duty will be to call on the farm to which he is invited by the farmer and to advise him in respect of any matter on which the farmer needs advice so that the probability of a local agent doing any injustice to a farmer is remote.

Senator Cogan hoped for the day when parish agents could foretell the farmers of this country what the markets of to-morrow are going to be. I could not help recollecting an occasion when I asked a very knowledgeable man in the grain trade what the price of coarse grains would be in the autumn and he said to me: "Mr. Dillon, if I knew that I would never have to work any more. I could go out and make £1,000,000 in the morning." The simple fact was that nobody knew what the price of coarse grains was going to be in the autumn or what the price of any product or crop of that kind was likely to be in six or 12 or 18 months' time. You can make a fair guess but it cannot be forecast with any degree of certainty and, when you come down to tin tacks, it is a fact that the farmer is a much better judge of market products than an agricultural adviser. An agricultural adviser is a graduate in agricultural science but his function is to advice farmers in agricultural or horticultural husbandry. He is not any better equipped than the farmer himself to forecast the future of the markets. It is foolish to imagine that an agricultural agent or anybody else can provide the farmers with a forecast which would be of any real value of what market conditions are likely to be in six or 12 months' time. People who have tried to do that in the past have been very anxious to forget their forecasts at a later date.

With regard to Senator Kissane's query, the farmers have developed over the last seven or eight years much more confidence in agricultural advisers than they used to have. In 1948 there were only 71 instructors in agriculture, while to-day there are 139 instructors in agriculture. It is true to say that eight or ten years ago it was difficult to persuade county committees of agriculture to listen to their own instructors and it was almost impossible to get them to increase the number of agricultural advisers or instructors. Fortunately, that attitude seems to be passing very rapidly. Farmers all over the country are becoming very much more conscious of the value of scientific advice.

I also assure Senator Kissane that the liaison between technical schools and the advisory services operated by the local authorities ought to be good. I always thought that it was good. I would find it hard to believe that the chief educational officer and the chief agricultural officer of the one county sitting together at headquarters would not have an effective liaison to ensure that rural science instructors in vocational schools would work in with the agricultural instructors. I think they do work in very well. A great number of young farmers' clubs were promoted by instructors in rural science in the technical schools and where you have a large number of these clubs, you will also find that the rural science instructor has been busy amongst them. These clubs seek lectures and demonstrations and film shows from the county instructors——

Mr. Kissane

Yes, but do they get them?

Mr. Dillon

I would be sorry to hear that they do not. I know that they apply to the Department of Agriculture for help in getting these special, or specialised, lectures, demonstrations and films, and I think the Senator would be surprised at the number that is provided. If the Senator wishes to inquire more closely into the matter and if he has the time to do so, I would suggest that he should read the annual report of the Department of Agriculture. A great deal of that work is going on and its volume is increasing every year.

I think I have covered every point raised. I think the Seanad has made it clear that it regards this as a desirable measure and I hope the House will be able to give it to me with as much expedition as it thinks right.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the remaining stages now.

Bill passed through Committee, reported without amendment, and received for final consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".

Mr. Cogan

I just want to say that the Minister rather skilfully avoided the question I asked him in regard to the financial position, if and when agricultural instructors become parish agents, and as to whether they would be paid by the local county committees or by the central Exchequer.

There is another point on which I would like to express a view at this stage as it comes within the scope of the Bill. That is, that as the money provided in this Bill is mainly for advisory purposes—the main function of county committees—it was suggested by a Senator on Second Stage that if the knowledge imparted by our agricultural instructors becomes more comprehensive, and if in addition to telling the farmers how to grow their crops and raise their stock they give them some advice in regard to marketing, the effect of that would be to make the farmers practically employees of the State. I think it is right to point out that the service given by our advisory officers is purely advisory and it does not in any way interfere with the farmer's independence. He simply asks for advice from the agricultural instructors and accepts or rejects it as he thinks fit. It does not in any way interfere with his independence as an owner of the land.

As a farmer and a ratepayer, I was interested in the point made in regard to the impost on the rates in this Bill. The maximum impost is 10d. I spent the best part of yesterday fighting out with the county manager the question of the rate for County Carlow and while we provided the maximum under existing law for agricultural purposes, that is, 7d., we found we were compelled to provide 253d. for other services so that I think the impact of whatever small increase is provided in the Bill upon the rates will be very small.

Mr. Dillon

The Senator said I tried to avoid answering a question. If the Senator asked the question I did not hear him. The expenses of the parish agent will be borne on the Vote of the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Cogan

That would mean a saving to the county committees.

Mr. Dillon

In so far as that would spare the county committee the necessity of appointing a new agricultural instructor. If the county committee appointed him the expenses of the appointment would fall on the rates.

Perhaps, the Senator would also wish to know that the rate and the Exchequer contribution finance the county committee of agriculture in providing instruction in agriculture, horticulture, bee-keeping, poultry-keeping and butter making and, secondly, in the provision of scholarships for boys and girls tenable at approved agricultural institutions. They also provide finances for schemes to assist, improve or develop production of live stock, poultry, fruits, vegetables and other crops. These are the purposes for which the agricultural rate plus the Exchequer contribution are used. Have I overlooked any other question?

Mr. Hickey

It is money well spent.

Mr. Dillon

I am glad I converted the Senator to that idea.

Question put and agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 9th March, 1955.