Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 1955

Vol. 44 No. 9

Public Business. - Tourist Traffic Bill, 1954—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Norton)

The object of this Bill is to dissolve Fógra Fáilte, which is at present responsible for tourist publicity, and to transfer its functions, assets and liabilities to An Bord Fáilte. From an examination I have made of the working of the tourist organisations I am convinced that there is no justification for the existence of two separate statutory bodies dealing with tourism. I am satisfied that the most effective method of promoting tourism is to have all the functions discharged by the one statutory body.

There are at present three separate organisations with responsibilities in connection with the development and publicising of the tourist industry. Two of these, An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte, are statutory bodies; the third, the Irish Tourist Association, is a private organisation.

An Bord Fáilte was the name given by the Tourist Traffic Act, 1952, to the Irish Tourist Board which was originally established by the Tourist Traffic Act, 1939. The general function of An Bord Fáilte is to encourage and promote the development of tourist traffic in and to the State. In effect this means that An Bord Fáilte discharges all functions in connection with tourism except those related to publicity. Under the Act of 1952 the board may receive a Grant-in-Aid not exceeding £250,000 each year for the discharge of its functions.

Prior to 1951, publicity functions in connection with tourism had been divided between the Irish Tourist Board and the Irish Tourist Association. In September, 1951, a special board was set up to deal with the publicising of the industry and this board was given statutory establishment and was named Fógra Fáilte by the Tourist Traffic Act, 1952. It was provided that this board also might receive an annual Grant-in-Aid not exceeding £250,000.

The third organisation, the Irish Tourist Association, is a private company which was established more than 25 years ago and which since then has been actively engaged in encouraging tourist traffic. It consists of representatives of local authorities, the hotel industry and other organisations interested in the promotion of tourism. The association derives its revenue mainly from voluntary contributions made to it by local authorities for tourist publicity purposes. When the legislation of 1952 was being prepared it was recognised that the Irish Tourist Association occupied a special position in regard to tourism by virtue of its previous activities. This special position was recognised by an administrative arrangement under which three directors of the association were appointed as directors of Fógra Fáilte. In addition, by arrangement with Fógra Fáilte the association was given responsibility for the operation of all the tourist bureaux within the country.

Since taking office I have made a very full and detailed study of the whole position in regard to the organisations dealing with tourism. As a result I have come to the conclusion that there is no valid reason for the existence of two separate statutory bodies. On the contrary, I believe that the existence of these two bodies has resulted in needless duplication of staffs and a lack of effective control and direction of staff and of functions. There was evidence also of clashes of personality and of unhealthy rivalry between the two bodies. I think the Seanad will agree that this is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. It is a state of affairs which has to be remedied if the country is to get the best possible value for the very considerable sums voted by the Oireachtas for tourist development and publicity.

Section 10 of this Bill will give effect to my proposal to dissolve Fógra Fáilte. Section 4 repeals those parts of the Act of 1952, which deal with the establishment, functions, financing and organisation of Fógra Fáilte. The publicity functions of Fógra Fáilte will, by virtue of Section 6 of the Bill, be transferred to a new statutory board; Sections 11 to 16 provide for the transfer to the new board of the assets and liabilities and staff of Fógra Fáilte, and Section 5 provides that this board will be known as "Bord Fáilte Éireann."

Senators will observe that the new board is being given a new name—"Bord Fáilte Éireann." I had proposed originally to the Dáil that the title of the new board should be "An Bord Fáilte (Irish Tourist Board)". The view was generally expressed, however, that it would be more in conformity with policy that the name of the new board should be in the Irish language only, and the feeling appeared to be that the board would be readily identifiable in foreign countries notwithstanding the fact that its title was in the Irish language only. While I had certain doubts about the identifiability abroad of a board such as this, whose name was in the Irish language only, nevertheless I had not any very strong views in the matter. After reconsidering the matter further, I agreed to change the title of the new board to Bord Fáilte Éireann. Apart from the considerations which I have referred to, I think that there is advantage in giving the new board a new name since the new board will be responsible for the discharge of all statutory functions in relation to the promotion of tourism.

I wish to make it clear that it is the policy of the present Government to develop the tourist industry to the fullest possible extent, and I am satisfied that expenditure within a limit of £500,000 each year by the State in connection with the tourist industry is justified. This is the limit of expenditure on tourist development and publicity authorised by the Act of 1952. I am, however, concerned to ensure that this money will be spent to the best possible advantage. It is essential that the new board should operate efficiently and economically and I propose to take steps to ensure that prudence and realism will be the tests applied to future expenditure.

I have already referred to the special position which the Irish Tourist Association occupies in relation to the tourist industry. We all appreciate the very useful pioneering work which the association has performed in relation to tourism. I believe that the association can continue to play an important part in the task of developing the industry. I am most anxious to avail of the widespread connections and goodwill of the association while at the same time preserving the main purpose of this Bill, which is to make one statutory board responsible for all tourist development and publicity functions.

The Seanad will agree that it is essential that moneys which are voted by the Oireachtas for statutory purposes should be expended by a body over which the Oireachtas has adequate statutory control. In such circumstances it would not be possible to make payments out of the Exchequer for private bodies such as the Irish Tourist Association. I am, however, prepared to recognise the special position of the Irish Tourist Association by providing that the association will have representation on the new board. This representation will be on the understanding that the present level of contributions by local authorities to the association will be maintained. The person or persons appointed would cease to be members of the board if at any time they ceased to be directors of the association. These are the conditions under which the Irish Tourist Association is at present represented on the Board of Fógra Fáilte.

I visualise also that the present arrangement under which the association operates the various tourist bureaux in Ireland will be continued when the new board is set up. Through its representation on the new board the Irish Tourist Association will share in the important task of organising the future development and publicising of the tourist industry. I think I should point out that at present the association, through its representation on Fógra Fáilte, is concerned only with the publicity side of tourism. In future, under the proposed arrangements which I have outlined, the association will have, through its representation on the new board, responsibility in relation to all the statutory functions of the new board for the development of the tourist traffic industry.

At present An Bord Fáilte has a maximum membership of seven. I propose that the membership of the new board should be the same and accordingly no provision is made in the Bill for any change. In deciding on the composition of the new board it will be my aim to ensure a fair and proper balance as between the various interests which are concerned with the tourist business. I will endeavour to make the board as representative as I possibly can and I will appoint a board consisting of persons who will be likely to work together in harmony and co-operation and who will manage the affairs of the new board with enthusiasm and efficiency.

I think that at this stage I should make a brief reference to An Tóstal in order to clear up certain misunderstandings. Doubts have been expressed from time to time concerning my attitude and the attitude of the Government towards An Tóstal and it has been implied that the Government's attitude is that the holding of An Tóstal in 1955 is being tolerated rather than encouraged. These opinions are entirely wrong and I should like to assure the House that the Government are giving their full support to An Tóstal for 1955. I should, perhaps, say that when I took office one of the first tasks which I undertook was to carry out a general review of policy in connection with this project. I had discussions about it with An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte as a result of which, in September, 1954, I decided that An Tóstal should be held again in 1955. I also told the boards that they could plan for the holding of An Tóstal in 1956. I did this because it was clear that arrangements for such an event had to be made well in advance particularly so far as publicity and the sponsoring of international events are concerned. This is the first time than An Tóstal can be planned two years ahead. Up to this year planning was from year to year. I have, of course, made it clear to the boards that I am critical of some of the arrangements made in connection with An Tóstal in 1953 and 1954. I have told them that I intend to keep the whole question of An Tóstal under constant review and to arrange for a close and continuous scrutiny of all features which An Bord Fáilte might propose to organise in connection with An Tóstal, 1955. For this purpose I have seconded a senior officer of my Department to sit in on meetings of the board at which arrangements for An Tóstal are discussed. I understand that this arrangement has been satisfactory.

Some questions have been raised about the progress which An Bord Fáilte has been making with the discharge of its functions in relation to such matters as the opening up of access to historic monuments, shrines and beauty spots. In the discharge of functions of this kind, the board has adopted the sensible policy of arranging, as far as possible, to have the necessary improvement works carried out on its behalf by local authorities on a recoupment basis. It is obviously more economic for the board to use the existing local authority organisation to carry out such works than to set up an organisation of its own for the purpose. The board also requires the co-operation of local authorities in such matters as the signposting of roads and the development of tourist resorts.

I am informed that some local authorities have not been as co-operative as they might be in regard to such matters. The task of developing our tourist industry is a difficult one and it is necessary for all those who are directly or indirectly concerned with the industry to play their part if the efforts of the board are to be fully successful. I appeal, therefore, to local authorities to take a more active interest in the improvement of the tourist amenities of the areas with which they are concerned, and to cooperate as much as they can with the board in effecting the many improvements which are necessary.

Another problem which is causing a good deal of concern at the moment is the question of transport facilities on the Dún Laoghaire-Holyhead route. Severe criticism of these facilities was voiced in the Dáil and it was the considered opinion of that House that our people are entitled to get from British Railways better transport services than they are getting at present. There can, I think, be little question that the development of our tourist industry is seriously hampered by the lack of proper facilities for travellers on this important route. I have taken up this matter very strongly with British Railways and have made it quite clear to them that I am determined that adequate services will be provided between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead. I have told them that unless I can be assured that there will be an adequate and comfortable service for the 1955 summer season, I propose to take up the matter personally with the British Minister for Transport.

It will be observed that Section 2 of the Bill provides that the Act shall come into operation on a date which I will appoint by Order. It is usual for purposes of convenience to effect the amalgamation of two companies or other bodies of that kind on a date which will be suitable from the point of view of whatever financial and accounting arrangements are involved. In practice where the two bodies have the same financial years the date selected is either the first day of that year or alternatively the first day of the second six months' accounting period. I have not yet finally decided on the date on which I will bring this Bill into operation, but my aim will be to bring the Bill into operation as soon as possible.

I think it is more important than ever at the present juncture that we should have here in this country an effective and virile tourist organisation. The pattern of our tourist trade has undergone a radical change in recent years. The boom which the industry enjoyed immediately after the end of World War II was due to exceptional circumstances which have now disappeared. Many of our visitors in the immediate post-war years came because of the plentiful supply of food and because there was no rationing or other austerities. With the disappearance of rationing and austerity in Britain and the increase in currency allowances for travel to the Continent, many of the people who formerly came here on holidays now no longer do so. I think that in future we will have to aim at attracting the middle class and working class people in Britain who are in steady employment and who can afford to spend a limited sum of money each year for the purpose of having a modest holiday. My remarks apply also to some extent to the middle class American family. It is my personal conviction that the future of the tourist trade here depends on the success of our efforts to attract tourists of this kind.

There is no doubt that competition for tourist traffic is growing ever keener; and if we are to face up successfully to this competition it is essential that the job of developing and publicising this country's tourist industry should be carried out as capably and as effectively as possible. I am satisfied that this can only be done by arranging for the amalgamation of the two existing tourist organisations in the manner suggested in this Bill. In anticipation of the enactment of legislation I have already made arrangements which have now been in operation for some time under which the directors of An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte hold joint meetings for the transaction of the business of the two boards. These arrangements are working in practice and illustrate that it is possible to have the functions of tourist development and tourist publicity undertaken under the one direction on the basis outlined in the Bill. I commend the Bill to the approval of the House.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Ba mhaith liom a rá i dtosach go bhfuilimid buíoch den Aire as ucht an chuntais a thug sé dhúinn ar chúrsaí trácht-chuartaíochta agus ar an míniú a thug sé dhúinn ar ghnéithe an Bhille. Is Bille é seo a bhfuil baint aige le cúrsaí gnótha. Is Bille é a mbeidh baint mhór aige le ioncam na tíre. O gcaoi a bhfuil cúrsaí tráchtála idirnáisiúnta ag imeacht agus an chaoi a bhfuil Fuighligh na Tráchtála agus na híocaíochta i gcoinne na tíre, is léir gur gnó é seo, gnó na trácht-chuartaíochta, atá thar a bheith tábhachtach. Tá iarrachtaí á ndeánamh chun gnóthaí eile a mhéadú. Tá iarrachtaí á ndhéanamh chun an tráchtáil idirnáisiúnta a mhéadú agus cé go bhfuil ag éirí linn roinnt, níl ag éiri linn an oiread agus ba mhaith linn.

Sílim gur léir dúinn agus gur léir do na daoine go bhfuil spéis acu i gcúrsaí na trácht-chuartaíochta gur gnó é seo agus má láimhseáiltear agus má stiúraítear i gceart é go mbeidh an deis ann dá bhárr ioncam na tíre a mhéadú go mór.

I want to say at the outset that we very much appreciate the Minister's coming to the House with this Bill and giving us the account he has given of the position with regard to the tourist traffic industry, and particularly with regard to the position of the two boards in particular An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte.

The Bill, I take it from the Minister's remarks, is designed to secure greater efficiency in the development of the tourist industry and, naturally, to ensure that greater efficiency at less cost. These being the aims, we must all agree that they are commendable and that the Bill, consequently, is a commendable one. For my own part, though, I would say that I am somewhat suspicious of this move. The Minister will not think it any reflection on him on my part if I say that these suspicions arise out of some past experiences we had with regard to the treatment of statutory and semi-statutory bodies.

Not so many years ago a Government with which the Minister was associated saw fit to interfere unduly, I think, in the management of the national transport industry. Some of us felt at that time that that interference was uncalled for and that it would have serious consequences. I think it will be admitted, even by the Minister himself, now that events and time have proved the wisdom of the proposals that were then so viciously attacked and actually dropped.

I naturally am all for efficiency, efficiency in every department of industry. I came to the conclusion long ago that one of the best ways to ensure efficiency is to get specialisation. It was with some satisfaction I noticed that under former legislation a special board was being entrusted with the work of publicity and that that board was Fógra Fáilte. Anybody who has travelled abroad and who studies the efforts taken by foreign tourist associations in the matter of publicity will realise how intense the competition is in the industry. They will realise the extent to which we fell behind.

There have been adverse comments on the working of Fógra Fáilte. I must say it was with considerable regret that I learned from the Minister here to-day that there was a lack of harmony and a lack of co-operation between the two boards. I regret that very much and I may say at the same time that I am very much surprised that it should have happened. However, I am still convinced that the proper way would be to have a separate body to look after this question of publicity. Again I am basing that view on the publicity work that is being done by the agencies of the different countries in which I have had the opportunity to travel.

This is a Bill that offers wide opportunities for discussion. I would like to take advantage of the Bill to go into many aspects of the tourist industry but I do not intend to do that. There is, however, the important question as to whether it is at all possible to increase the value of this industry. Many of us are worried, perhaps unduly worried, with regard to our balance of trade and with regard to our balance of payments. We watch all kinds of reports and all kinds of statistics to see in what direction something might be done to overhaul these adverse balances and very often we are driven to the conclusion that one of the easiest ways to secure this overhaul is by giving proper attention, a great deal more attention, to this question of tourist development. We ourselves very often make calculations as to what can be done in this direction. The latest figures available would indicate that the industry is worth about £30,000,000 a year but some "Smart Alecs" of course will examine that, set down debits against the credits and arrive at the conclusion that in fact we are losing on the industry rather than gaining on it. I need hardly say that this tendency to misuse statistics—it is a tendency we have noticed very recently both in this House and in the other House—is not very encouraging.

There is no doubt whatever of the enormous value of this industry. To what extent can we increase it? I would not be competent to go into this matter fully but I do think that we have many attractions to offer in this country which, if properly organised and presented to the tourists likely to come from the different countries, would lead to a considerable expansion of the industry. Further we have the views of the E.C.A. experts who have stated that there is no reason why this industry could not be increased and I believe they placed the figure at about fourfold. If there is any substance in the view expressed by these experts, then it is clear that everything we can possibly do to secure the development of this industry should be done with the very best men we can get to organise the industry and to publicise it. The very best men we can get should be called on to develop the industry, no matter what their services might cost. We should get the best men and pay them good salaries. If we do so, I think we will get ample reward for the country in the services that these men would give us. Therefore we should organise for that and plan along these lines. However, there is not much use in doing that unless we can carry on an advertising publicity campaign. We cannot do that on small grants or on very small expenditure. The whole world is our market and to advertise throughout the world is a very costly operation but I think, and in this I am fortified by the views of the E.C.A. experts, that it would be well worth our while to spend money on this industry. It is one that should and I believe would give benefits and give them very soon.

I was very pleased to hear the Minister's references to An Tóstal. I had a certain uneasiness, like many other people, that An Tóstal was likely to get the cold shoulder—in fact it would appear for some time as if it was getting the cold shoulder. Over and above all the aim of An Tóstal has been to extend the season of the tourist industry. I think it is very important that everything we can do to lengthen the tourist season in this country should be done. So long as we have a very short tourist season, we cannot possibly blame hotel owners, guest house owners and others for getting as much out of that short season as will carry them over the whole 12 months. We are opposed to bad service and high charges but we have to face the fact that having a very short tourist season, we must acknowledge that there is very little else that they can do. They have to make what they can and it may seem to us that these charges are extraordinary or inordinate charges.

I should like to think that the Government and the Minister would take a very special interest in An Tóstal. It is something which could help in lengthening the tourist season. It could be done, for instance, by developing inland fisheries and by lengthening the fishing season at both ends, so as to have an earlier opening and a later closing of the season. The development of sporting activities could also be undertaken. Certain sports could be organised for the late spring and many of them could be carried on into the autumn. There are many other ways in which the tourist season could be lengthened.

There are also the social advantages of An Tóstal. I do not think that any member of the House who has gone through the country in the past few years will have failed to notice the value of the work that has been done in every town and village in consequence of An Tóstal. A great deal of work has been done in beautifying many places, making improvements generally and putting up decorations of various kinds. Then there has been the use of the paint brush and the white-wash brush. There is none of us who will not pay tribute to achievements in this direction. There is no point in saying that we have lost money on An Tóstal so long as we have the advantages of that kind to put on the credit side. Again An Tóstal has had a big cultural value in the country.

How many towns in Ireland would ever have experienced the opportunity of hearing continental choirs or how many towns and villages would have missed the opportunity of hearing first class orchestras, concerts and so on, were it not for the people who have organised these things in connection with An Tóstal? I do not think that anyone will deny that many cultural benefits have been obtained through the operations of An Tóstal, and, on the whole, by and large, An Tóstal has justified itself financially. As I say, I am very pleased to hear the Minister's view with regard to it and also very pleased that he does feel enthusiastic with regard to the 1955 Tóstal. All I would say about it is that three, four or five years is not enough of testing time for a movement of this kind. It may take ten or even 20 years for a movement of this kind to achieve anything like the success we would wish it to achieve, and, if it does not yield us dividends in a very visible way within a short time, let us not despair. Let us keep on at it and I believe that eventually it will pay in every way for itself.

The question of the Irish Tourist Association loomed largely in the Minister's discourse and I am not too sure whether the Minister is an admirer of that association. I should like to feel that he was. He has declared his intention of providing some representation for the association on the new board and that is good, so far as it goes. He has indicated that he will implement that decision, provided the income of the Irish Tourist Association remains at its present level. I think that is rather severe for a variety of reasons. Local authorities may decide to cut down on the contributions to the Irish Tourist Association from time to time, and I hope the Minister does not intend to be rigid in this matter of the contributions being maintained at their present level. There should be some flexibility about it, so that if they contribute at the rate of, say, 50 per cent., the association will still be entitled to its representation. Remember that no local authority will cut down on its contributions to the tourist industry, except for a very grave reason. Local authorities are very keen that the tourist industry should be developed, and anything they can reasonably do to encourage the industry will be done.

The Minister paid a compliment, perhaps in an indirect way, to the Irish Tourist Association. That association pioneered, as one might say, the tourist industry here. It carried on its work during a period when there was very little thanks to be had for the doing of that work, but, above all, it is a very democratically constituted body. We talk about the need for local initiative, for local effort and we talk about the need for people doing things outside the Government or without Government support. Because of the democratic organisation of this tourist body, because of its constitution, I think it forms an ideal liaison between the State, the industry as a whole and the local authorities, and for these reasons, its splendid work in the past, the democratic organisation which runs through the whole of the association, the fact that it forms such an ideal form of liaison, I would appeal to the Minister to see to it that it is given adequate representation and adequate protection and that the board will be enabled, whatever representation the association may have on the board, to come back and consult with the association and that the association will somehow or other have something in the way of a power to influence the policy of the new board. The Minister indicated new activities that might be undertaken. I think it quite possible, in consultation with the new board and the Tourist Association, to work out a schedule of operations that might be attended to by the Tourist Association.

Another point which this question of what the Tourist Association may do brings to mind is this matter of sign-posting. I notice that in the Dáil there were some adverse comments on the position regarding sign-posting, and as one who travels a good deal in Ireland, all I can say is that the adverse comments made in the Dáil are well founded. There are towns, important towns, in this country—I will not mention them by name—and I find it on occasion very difficult to get out of them.

Mr. Burke

That may be due to the hospitality.

Liam Ó Buachalla

In my case, I do not avail of the hospitality, so the Senator will have to seek another reason. Having got out of them, I often find that I will have travelled five or seven miles before discovering that I am on the wrong road altogether. I may be somewhat patient and pass that off with a joke, but visitors do not appreciate that kind of thing.

There is one remark I want to make in passing and I hope the new board will give it some consideration. It has to do with the actual signposts themselves. The new signs going up are excellent in the way they have been designed, in the form of their lettering and so on, but I should like to see the Irish name of a place given pride of place on these signposts. I cannot for the life of me understand why the English name is plastered over the sign and the Irish name given in such a way that one would need to take one's glasses and go over to read it. Again, I suggest to the Minister that he might recommend to the board when it comes to deal with this matter that, where the names of towns or of historical places correspond very much to the Irish form, only the Irish form should be used.

For instance, I cannot see why Rosmuc in Connemara should be posted up as Rosmuck. I would leave it Rosmuc. Is it not the same in the end? That applies also to a place like Spiodal—I am thinking of places in my own area—Oranmore, and so on. I think it is ridiculous to be plastering up the English form in big lettering and giving the really correct form in this small lettering. It is a waste of money, a needless expense, and will not mislead anybody. That is work which I think the Irish Tourist Association could very well attend to and I would trust the association to do that work and to do it well.

I want to pay a compliment to the work done by the different boards in stepping up the standards of the hotel industry in this country. I had the opportunity of visiting many hotels abroad and I think I can say truthfully that I have been in hotels abroad that I would not write home about. They were graded rather high and their charges were rather high, but I have no doubt that if I experienced the service at home that I experienced in these hotels abroad, I think I would let people know about it in no uncertain terms.

On the whole, the industry has been stepped up very considerably and the people responsible for that deserve our highest commendation. Hotel owners, a number of them certainly, are efficient and hardworking. Such hoteliers will not raise any objection to anybody going to inspect their places. As a matter of fact, I am aware that the hotel owners in Galway are very pleased when an inspection takes place because they have nothing to be ashamed of and everything to be proud of. But you have a number of people throughout the country running hotels and they will object to these inspections. They will be the exceptions, but, by and large, my own feeling is that the person who objects is the very person who needs to be inspected. He is the person who is not doing his best to raise the industry to the level to which I think we can and ought to raise it.

I have no more to say except that I hope the Minister will not hold it against me that I am not just quite convinced that we are doing the right thing in amalgamating these boards. I am conscious of the remark of the Minister that there has been a lack of harmony and a lack of co-operation, but I think we ought to be able to get over that some way. There should be some way of overhauling it. I do feel all the time that the industry would be better served if we could have a special board, as we have had, devoting all its attention to the question of publicity.

Mr. Crosbie

I welcome the Bill. To my mind, the Minister is doing in this Bill what any prudent businessman, charged with the direction of a big business concern, would do. The Bill might be described as one designed to co-ordinate the various departments of an existing industry. When private enterprise operates a large industry— and private enterprise often operates industries that are larger than our tourist industry—it does not set up separate companies for the purpose of handling different aspects of that one industry. I would point out to Senator Ó Buachalla that, under this Bill, there is nothing to prevent the new board from having special personnel detailed whose sole task would be to study, to report on and to undertake the publicity angle of our tourist industry. It does not require a separate statutory body to do that.

I was glad to hear the Minister expound, in more detail, the theory which is one that I must say I have always felt, namely, that our tourist industry both in the normal years of the past—I am not referring to the rather abnormal years immediately after the war—and for the future must, of necessity, depend in the main on middle class visitors and on working class visitors in full employment from England, and of the same classes from the United States of America.

There is in addition of course nowadays owing to better transport facilities, welcome signs that people from the Continent of Europe are beginning to discover Ireland and are coming to visit us. I am quite sure we all sincerely hope that this is an aspect of the industry which we will see developed. The classes referred to by the Minister are I think the foundation stones so to speak of the industry.

I was also extremely glad to hear that the Minister has it in mind to give some consideration to the problem which has been raised by the lack of facilities provided by British Railways both at Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead. The same thing might, of course, apply to the British railway facilities provided at Rosslare where the set-up must have been designed originally by either an engineer or architect possessing a larger sense of humour than of engineering skill. While the Minister's thoughts are turned in this direction, I would respectfully suggest to him that perhaps at the same time it might be worthwhile, in the interests of the tourist industry, that he should cast an inquiring eye over the services provided by other common carriers, both surface and air, who are responsible for bringing visitors across channel to this country.

I refer, in particular, to the vast cost of the transport of motor cars between here and the United Kingdom. There is little doubt that an increasing number of people nowadays, when they go an their holidays, like to bring their motor-cars with them. It is not only the very wealthy people who like to do that by any means. It is a cheaper way for a family to travel. It also renders them more mobile; they feel that they can cover more ground, and cover it in their own time and in the manner that they feel they would like to cover the ground they have in view, rather than cover it according to the time table of a public transport company.

The position admittedly is that the freight charges on motor-cars between Ireland and the United Kingdom are far higher than they are on any other European cross-channel journey of similar length that I am aware of. To give the House an idea of the importance that some countries place on this aspect of tourism, I might mention that, before the war, the Swedish carrying companies operating steamers between the United Kingdom and Sweden, were prepared, where a group of people of not less than four purchased tickets on one of their steamers from the United Kingdom to Sweden, to carry their motor-cars free. I am not suggesting that in these days of expensive shipping freights, and possibly not a great deal of space to spare, we could expect the carrying companies plying between here and the United Kingdom to render a similar service. I do think that we can expect one of two things and that Government pressure should be brought on these companies to bring that about. I think we could reasonably expect that they should cut their freight charges on motor-cars very considerably and bring them more in line with the freight charges that are in existence, say, between Dover and Calais. Failing that, what they could do is this—where a person books a motor-car between Liverpool and Dublin, shall we say, they could offer free tickets for two passengers. Certainly some alleviation is due in this matter and it is one which is of vital importance to the tourist industry as a whole.

In addition to the cost of cross-Channel motor transport, there is unnecessary and considerable delay both in loading and unloading motor-cars. After all, the tourist who comes here, having completed his holiday has to return home; he is a tourist. If he wants to ship his motor-car from the North Wall to Liverpool, he must place it in the hands of the shipping company not later than about 11 a.m. to be loaded on to a ship that is not going to sail until 8 o'clock that night. It does not appear to me to be reasonable. The same applies in Liverpool at the other end when the tourist is on his way here—he has to hand over his motor-car in the early hours of the morning to the shipping company in Liverpool to be put on board a ship that is not going to sail from Liverpool until very nearly 11 o'clock at night. In fact, it would appear to me that the shipping companies serving this country in that respect are deliberately going out of their way to discourage rather than to encourage tourists to visit this country and to bring their cars with them. I know that is a very strong statement but it is very difficult to draw any other conclusion from the facts.

Before concluding, might I suggest that the people in C.I.E who are responsible for bus tours might profitably study the facilities and the manner in which our Italian friends operate their tourist buses in their country, where they give a hotel door to hotel door service between large cities?

In conclusion, I find myself nearly in complete agreement—not quite— with Senator Ó Buachalla's remarks on the question of signposts. Even the new signposts that have been erected are completely out of date with modern practice. Signposts should not be erected at crossroads: they should be erected before you come to the crossroad. Signposts nowadays, in practically every country I know of, are always placed at the level of the driver's eye rather than ten feet high in the air.

In conclusion, I welcome the Bill and I trust the discussion on its passage through the House will be fruitful of useful ideas to the tourist industry.

Mr. Hickey

I welcome the Bill. I would like to make some remarks about what is really needed at the moment. I am inclined to think the hotels are not sufficiently graded. I meet a number of people from the other side, working class people with very little to spare for a holiday, and they complain about the charges. They feel the charges would be more in keeping with a second class hotel than the third class hotel they visit. They say that sometimes even the third class hotel does not deserve to be called third class at all. If anything can be done about the charges, it would encourage those working class and middle class people who are anxious to spend a holiday here. Those people say also that it is impossible to bring any member of the family because of the charges.

I would like to mention the condition of our seaside resorts. Anyone who goes across to the other side—not mentioning any of the bigger seaside places like Blackpool or elsewhere— must certainly say that our seaside resorts are not sufficiently attractive. Those who come here from the other side are always anxious to go to the seaside. The set-up in our seaside resorts is anything but satisfactory. If any money can be spent or encouragement given to local bodies to beautify seaside resorts and give decent facilities for tourists, it would encourage more people to some here.

There is also the question of food. This country can give first class food, as good as that in any other country in the world. Last summer there were three people in Cork who had been to Sweden—Senator Crosbie reminded me of it when he spoke about Sweden—and their conversation was as to how thorough and practical the Swedish people were in attracting tourists. Senator Ó Buachalla mentioned some of his experiences during his travels. We do not pay sufficient attention to detail.

On the question of transport, we are lacking very much in that and in the attractiveness of our transport system. In Cork we are unjustly treated in regard to the bus depot to deal with passengers coming off liners or steamers in Cork. Often 1,000 passengers come off the Fishguard boat three times a week and the facilities in the bus depot, where these tourists have to come, are utterly inadequate and scandalous from the tourist point of view, as regards waiting for their luggage and so on. If the Minister could even draw the attention of C.I.E. to it and get them to do something to give us a decent bus depot in Cork, which serves the whole of Munster, it would be a worthwhile step. The conditions which obtained there for the last four or five years are pitiable. It does not attract tourists to find that they are crammed into a place like that, especially in the locality where it is, and it creates a bad impression.

The Minister was very practical in some of the things he suggested and so were Senators Ó Buachalla and Crosbie. There is so much to be done to attract tourists. We have to bear in mind that the problem of the future will be to provide for leisure, since with the changes in the method of production there will be more and more people anxious to get a fortnight's holidays. We are not adjusting ourselves to the demand for tourist facilities. Therefore, I hope that, as a result of having one board, more practical work will be done. I can assure the Minister that the Bill is accepted very widely by the people all over the country.

Professor Stanford

To begin with I have one point of correction, or really a small point of order, to bring to the notice of the Minister. I think it is not in order in this House for the Minister to propose the Second Reading of a Bill. I think that comes from the Chair. The Minister will forgive me; but we are all rather jealous of our Standing Orders here; and the proposal for the Second Reading of the Bill should have come from the Chair.

I hope that will not prevent the Minister from listening to what I have to say. It is really the only meed of criticism I have to offer to his Bill. There is one point I wish to make. The disappearance of Fógra Fáilte has, I think, worried some of us —its disappearence, at any rate, as a separate organisation. It is not being abolished and reasonable provision is made for the officials under Section 16 of the Bill. We might perhaps call it a wedding instead of a funeral; and a word of praise is no more out of place at a wedding than at a funeral ceremony.

I would like to take the opportunity of praising some of the things that Fógra Fáilte has done, and to refer especially to the propaganda literature which it has produced. I have in my left hand the last number of Irish Travel issued by the Irish Tourist Association in March, 1952 and in my right hand the first number of Ireland of the Welcomes issued by Fógra Fáilte in May-June of 1952. Irish Travel is good but Ireland of the Welcomes is superlatively good. I am not given to the use of such language. I mean it when I say that Ireland of the Welcomes is superlatively good. Great credit is due to those who improved Irish Travel into this journal, which is a credit to Ireland whereever it goes throughout the world. The photographs are of the highest possible quality; the writers are the best we can produce in this country; and the whole production is something we can show to people abroad and at home with the greatest pride.

I do not want to suggest that the Irish Tourist Association did not do a good job with Irish Travel but Fógra Fáilte has done a superlatively good job on Ireland of the Welcomes and its other publications. I hope that under the new scheme Fógra Fáilte will not be hampered in any way in its literary work. I hope the financial screw will not be put on them. I am sure that Ireland of the Welcomes costs a great deal of money; but it is one of the few things we can point to that is superlatively good in recent developments in this country.

Senator Ó Buachalla has referred to the treatment of the Irish Tourist Association in this Bill. I rather share his views on the matter. We have all received a letter from the Irish Tourist Association setting out its very creditable record since 1925. There is something else to be borne in mind in connection with that organisation. The Irish Tourist Association is much less centralised than either of the other two organisations. It has its roots set deep into the deep country. I would like to emphasise that local patriotism and local effort are worth a very great deal, and we want as far as possible to keep them going. The Irish Tourist Association has done a great deal in that way. When we go to France and abroad we find local syndicats working with great local effort. I hope the Irish Tourist Association will be given very favourable treatment when this Bill gets under way.

There is another point. It is with reference to An Tóstal. I am very glad to hear that the Government will continue to give An Tóstal its full support. I would like to say that the general effect of An Tóstal has been very good especially in the improvement of the appearance of the countryside. I used to live near the town of Tipperary in the twenties and of all the depressing towns in Western Europe, it must have been one of the most depressing—the ruins of the old barracks standing there and the houses and shops in bad condition. There has been an enormous change since then throughout the country. I sometimes meet what might be called "Empire building types" who are back again in this country after 20 or 30 years of life abroad. They express surprise and even wonder at the general improvement in the appearance of the Irish country towns. They almost grudgingly admit that there might be something to be said for national independence, so marked is that improvement. An Tóstal has accelerated that improvement and that is very much to its credit.

There is another point worthy of mention. Two visitors from Toronto who were in the country a little while ago were greatly shocked after a good night's sleep to wake up to the spectacle of the local fair. It is an unpleasant thing to see, under a hotel window, the cattle and other animals and the filth and dirt of a country town after the local fair has taken place. I know that this is a matter which is deep in the tradition of the countryside. But surely the Minister or some of the tourist authorities might do something to have the fair removed away at least from the hotels in the country towns. It does not reflect creditably on our country's honour. I hope something will be done about it. That may be a detail but it is the kind of detail that counts. There is one other thing about An Tóstal—it will take a long time to establish. I think An Tóstal is well worthy of establishment. But it will take ten or 20 years to do so, and I hope the Government will continue with it.

I would like to turn now to the general structure of our whole tourist campaign. It is a very big affair and it has to be planned very carefully. It has to be planned carefully and systematically. We can see the structure of our tourist effort somewhat in the shape of a pyramid. At the top is the Government. Beside it and below it come the two Houses of the Oireachtas. It broadens down to the various Government sponsored organisations and then to the voluntary organisations like the Irish Tourist Association, and the fishing clubs, and other voluntary organisations of that nature, which can do a very great deal towards local development. At the lower level, or at the receiving end, we have the hotels and the various interests and other bodies which are commercially interested. We have talked about those ad nauseam here and in the other House. But another aspect of our tourist trade is the co-operation of private individuals and non-commercial bodies—voluntary co-operation by private individuals and non-commercial bodies. It is going to make a great deal of difference if front gardens are kept tidy, if hedges and walls are kept in good repair, if houses are well painted and well looked after. That counts immensely. These are the things by which visitors really judge the country. These are not the facade, the make-ups, so to speak. These make the ultimate, deep impression. I think we must keep that in mind. Much harm has been done in the past to the honour of Ireland by tumble-down houses and neglected hedges. As I have said, I believe there has been a steady improvement. I believe An Tóstal has accelerated that improvement. But do not let us forget that that is an essential part of the appreciation of our country by the tourists.

There is one other element in our tourist effort which I think has been overlooked, too. I mean the co-operation of the non-commercial bodies, let us call them—bodies like the Royal Dublin Society, the Gaelic Athletic Association or the Irish Rugby Football Union. The House will forgive me, perhaps, if I take an example of what can be done from a body that I know very well for obvious reasons. I would like to say what Trinity College has tried to do in the way of encouraging and interesting our tourists. The centre of the college, as far as tourists are concerned, is the library and in it, the Book of Kells. Admission, of course, is free and we do everything to encourage visitors to come. Figures speak for themselves. In the numbers that have come to see the Book of Kells, surprising as that might be to Senator Crosbie, we can see the progress of our tourist trade pinpointed very accurately. At the close of last year which ended on June 30th, 1954, 25,000 people had seen the Book of Kells as far as our records go and there were probably a good many others who had not recorded their names. That is an increase of 4,000 over the previous year in which 21,000 visitors were recorded. In the year previous to that there were 17,000. I think that is an example of the steady growth of the numbers of tourists coming to Dublin. There was a steady 4,000 of an increase in each of the last two years and an increase of 8,000 altogether.

There is a reason for that. It is not just by accident. We do not just put the Book of Kells in a box and open it when anybody comes along. We take a good deal of trouble with it. A special case was built recently and special lighting was provided; and it is appreciated. Further, for the Tóstal last year and the year previous, special exhibitions were arranged. There was an exhibition of Irish book-bindings in 1954 as described in the bulletin of the Department of External Affairs which many Senators may have seen. In 1953 there was an exhibition of Irish manuscripts. Competent authorities say it was the finest exhibition of Irish manuscripts that had ever been produced. Those who would like to test that can consult the catalogue which is in print.

There were other exhibitions of the kind. I am exemplifying what private bodies can do to encourage the tourist industry. We had the honour of receiving the President who opened the exhibition of books about Robert Emmet and relics of his life and work. Mr. de Valera opened a similar exhibition of the life and works of the great philosopher Berkeley. All these have, I believe, in their quiet way, added considerably to the interest of Dublin within the last few years. As I say, 25,000 thought it worthwhile to come and see the library itself.

Speaking of voluntary or private effort there is one final example. The liner Caronia possibly brings more dollars per head of its tourists to this country than any other ship or mode of transport. In order to fit its schedule, the organisers of the tours conducted from it wanted to start at 9.30 a.m. in the library of Trinity College, Dublin. Our library normally opens at 10 o'clock. We are pretty strict about that. But in the interests of the Irish tourist trade and of the country in general, the deputy librarian gave orders for the library to be opened at 9.30 a.m. at the request of C.I.E. and opened it was on three occasions. That means something, when rules and arrangements have to be changed. But, apart from the college, it does do something for our country. If every organisation did the same either on a big scale or a small scale it would do much more for the tourist organisation than a lot of the talk we sometimes have as the only contribution by Irishmen. These are deeds, not words.

I give that as an example from what I happen to know of private effort. If other educational and cultural bodies do the same thing—and I think they are doing it—it means that our tourist organisations are likely to succeed, and that the honour and prosperity of our country is likely to be upheld.

Let me sum up. Much credit undoubtedly has been due in the past to the private organisations, beginning with the Irish Tourist Association. Much credit is due to the Tóstal organisers. But let me emphasise that much credit is also due to private individuals and public bodies who, without any commercial incentive or official responsibility in the tourist traffic, have co-operated generously in making our country not only attractive but even admirable to visitors from abroad. I have much pleasure in supporting the Bill.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

I was sorry not to have been in earlier to hear the Minister's case when he introduced this legislation, because I read the case he made in the Dáil for what amounts to the abolition of Fógra Fáilte. I am sorry to say I was not impressed by the case. He cited really what were theoretical objections to Fógra Fáilte, things which might happen in the case of relationship between Fógra Fáilte and the other organisations but when we come down to facts they are circumstances which, so far as I am aware, have not arisen so far.

Mr. Norton

Might I interrupt the Senator to give him and, perhaps, the Seanad a picture of the background? Based on my experience of the two boards, the clashes which were taking place and the dissipation of energy which I could witness, I had made up my mind that the amalgamation of the two boards was desirable. The two boards came to me and said they recognised that fact and that they should be welded into one.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

I see. The information which the Minister gives is very valuable. I, naturally, have not any inside information but, so far, the facts do not indicate that there is a case for doing away with Fógra Fáilte. I disagree with Senator Crosbie in regard to his point that, looking at this thing from a business-like angle, only one organisation is necessary. I feel that it is so tremendous and the potentialities are so great that not one, but several vigorous and active organisations are fully desirable.

We have got a very false impression in regard to the Irish tourist industry, created I think during the war and immediately after the war, when we had conditions which were close on a false boom. We had come to the conclusion, in those circumstances, that this country had food; that it had attractive scenery; that there was therefore a tremendous opportunity for bringing people from all over the world; and we had only to sit down and wait for them to come. Some of these people who did come here in great numbers after the war did not get in many instances a very good show. Some of them did not come back again.

I feel that the work which Fógra Fáilte has been doing since it was set up has been of such high quality and so very important that there should be a case for the organisation to continue as it was. The Minister points out that there has been disagreement between the different organisations and I am surprised that there has been. I think his predecessor in trying to formulate legislation was faced with a very big problem in reconciling the various interests and I admire very much the way in which he dealt with it at the time. I would expect that there could be domestic disagreement at high level between the various tourist associations for some time, but I suppose in the interests of the tourist organisations it should be a question of resolving these disagreements rather than of trying to find a solution by setting up one organisation.

On this question of sign-posting and the various other aspects of the tourist industry that have been discussed, is it not extraordinary that in a considerable part of this country you find Irishmen travelling from the South going astray, as I have done, in many of our towns and villages? That has happened to me on several occasions. Very often it is difficult to distinguish a main road from other roads when passing through some of the towns and villages. What then must be the position for foreigners who come to this country, people who in many instances do not even know English? They must find it appallingly difficult to travel over the country. Fógra Fáilte had only made some beginnings in regard to sign-posting. This question may seem unimportant to people in this country faced with big national problems like unemployment and other crises. Many members of the community, with some reason and sincerity, might ask why we should spend £1,500,000 on the tourist industry when we have matters like unemployment, the cost of living, etc., to deal with and from their point of view that is perhaps a perfectly reasonable case. It is, however, only when you see the tourist industry operating in other countries that you realise how far we have to go here, how enormous the problem is and why it is necessary to make available the best possible resources in personnel, legislation and money. Fógra Fáilte has made a splendid beginning in regard to information and in the production of maps and literature for the tourists. It has had its difficulties but it has been doing good work in making literature of this type available for the tourist industry.

Fógra Fáilte had also made a splendid start in trying to get information across to the people we hope will come here, people of Irish descent in England, the British Commonwealth countries, and the United States of America. All these things such as sign-posting, maps and literature are a very important part of tourist development and we must spend money in trying to make these things better.

There was one point which Senator Crosbie began to develop but did not finish and that was the matter of better accommodation. We have not now the advantage of the war-time conditions and we are faced with the competition of a world market; competition from countries like France, Italy and Spain. The Continent to-day is making a big bid for the English market. Some people have got the impression that only wealthy tourists go to the Continent, that it is places like the French and Italian Rivieras only, which get rich American tourists or people with plenty of money. Anyone who has been there in recent years will tell you that nothing is further from the truth. As far as these continental holiday resorts are concerned, the back-bone of the tourist industry is the English working man and woman who, with their two weeks' holidays with pay, can now take a continental holiday. That has been made possible for them because of the high incomes they receive and the fact that women work much more in England nowadays. The English working people in the low income groups are now in the position that they can take their holidays on the Continent and these are the people who form the vast majority of the tourists going to these continental holiday resorts in the French and Italian Rivieras.

One can see in the English Sunday newspapers every week advertisements directed to these people inviting them to spend their holidays in these places; we find to-day that these English people can spend their holidays in Spain, Italy, France and in many instances, they go right down to the Adriatic. They can take these holidays because they are in a position to add something to the money they have with their two weeks' holidays with pay. We have to face the fact that, if we are to realise the potential of our tourist industry, we have to plan now and we have to compete continuously for that market. That is where the whole question of policy in regard to items like literature, sign-posting, the standards of our hotels and the standards of our food and so on is important. Towards that end, large sums of money will have to be made available if the tourist industry is to develop as we would wish.

We have to remember that these other countries have a tremendous start on us so far as the tourist industry is concerned. France, for instance, knows a lot about the tourist industry, in fact knows far too much, and it would be a long time before we could have sufficient money, energy, and technical knowhow to compete with her for tourist traffic and be able to stand on our own ground. In these continental countries, all the roads are well marked and sign-posted and when you drive through them, it is virtually impossible to lose your way. The roads are marked to indicate to the visitor skiddy surfaces, sharp bends and other things which might make motoring difficult. Those facilities eased matters for the tourist who could always get along even though he had no knowledge of the language. I may say that I have motored through thousands of miles on the Continent without becoming lost but when I came back here, I lost my way a couple of times in a single journey from the South.

If we can expand the tourist industry and increase its benefits for this country it is well worth doing, but we have to be prepared to put the money into it and to work very hard for it. We must also be prepared to face up to the criticism we are going to get from people at home who do not understand this problem and do not realise the amount of money necessary.

I notice that Senator Stanford referred to the syndicats in these towns on the Continent, and particularly in France. That is an example of the road we will have to follow in the matter of publicity. In any town in France you go into, you can go to a local office provided by the State which is open all day and get free on request a map of the town, a list of its hotels and restaurants which are graded, particulars about renting any type of accommodation, garages and so on, and these are the facilities which the English people are beginning to enjoy now and that is the market we are hoping to go into.

I feel, too, that so far as England is concerned there will have to be some effort made in England to attract the English tourists over here. The amount of publicity and inducements held out by the travel agencies to English tourists to go to the Continent is overwhelming, and if one looks at the advertising matter coming from the English tourist organisations, one will see now and again a very sedate advertisement: "Ireland in 80 minutes— no currency difficulties", and a few other phrases like that. That is not sufficient when we are competing against the Continent and against the very attractive publicity which the English tourist agencies are getting out.

Senator Crosbie dealt with the position in relation to British Railways and I think that should be a No. 1 priority with the Government and the Tourist Board. It is a frightfully serious thing, because, looking again at what our competitors are doing, it is very much easier to go from England to the Continent than to travel from England to Ireland. In every way, the transport conditions between England and the Continent have been enormously improved since the war. It does not matter whether one is going merely as a passenger or is taking a car, the whole transit facilities from England to the Continent are vastly easier than from England to Ireland.

The Minister is a man who is very much against monopolies and who has spoken quite a lot about them. Here is a very attractive one to have a good smack at, so far as British Railways are concerned. The treatment which tourists and others receive when travelling across on British Railways is really beyond description. I crossed over from Dún Laoghaire to Holyhead on New Year's Eve and the only way in which I can describe the treatment we got at Holyhead is to say that we were treated like cattle. No other phrase would describe it. There is no comparison between these conditions and the facility and the ease with which people can go from Dover to Calais.

As Senator Crosbie pointed out, the motoring tourist is a very valuable tourist, and, on account of this country's beautiful scenery and the opportunities it offers for fishing, hunting and other sports, this question of the motoring tourist is one to which we will have to give a good deal of attention. Of one thing I am certain: unless the unfavourable travel conditions across the Channel are attended to soon, the Irish tourist industry will definitely suffer. There is no doubt about that, and I feel that the patience of all Governments here should long ago have been exhausted in relation to that service.

Then, there is the question of hotels. I believe that, in the matter of amenities in hotels, tremendous progress has been made here in recent years. The standard of accommodation in Irish hotels, in so far as the provision of hot and cold water and other modern amenities, such as furnishings and table appointments are concerned, has shown a very great improvement in recent years. I hope the Minister is firmly in favour of the grading of hotels. I was very sorry to see it dropped for a period, because I think it is most essential that hotels should be very strictly graded. It is a most important thing from the tourist point of view.

One feature which I have always regretted in regard to grading is that the grading applied only to the standard of accommodation in a hotel and did not take food into consideration. It is an awful pity that we should allow a hotel, just because it happens to have a certain number of bedrooms, bathrooms and living rooms to become a grade A hotel—in saying this, I am not referring to any particular hotel— and that because it is a grade A hotel, it should be allowed to charge 10/6 for lunch and that we should not lay down conditions as to what that lunch should contain. Once we grade a hotel on accommodation standards, we must also grade it from the point of view of food and we must lay down: "If you want to be a grade A hotel, your kitchen must be a certain standard and if you want to serve a lunch worthy of a grade A hotel, it must contain so many courses and must have a certain standard of cooking".

I have met many people from abroad who criticised the hotel industry here on that issue. They went into a hotel which looked rather good, well equipped and appointed, paid a rather stiff price for a lunch and got a lunch which was not even worthy of a very inferior grade hotel. I know that it is a very difficult thing to grade a hotel in regard to food. I appreciate the enormous difficulties involved because you cannot send around Government tasters to decide whether the soup is sufficiently good to be worthy of a grade A hotel. It does constitute a tremendous problem, but some effort should be made to try to ensure that a proper standard of food is attained in these hotels. By a proper standard of food, I do not mean that the vast majority of hotels in this country should have anything to do with attempting to put across continental standards. It would be the greatest mistake ever and would completely ruin the industry.

I believe that the small hotel, preferably the proprietor-run hotel, is the backbone of the tourist industry and that man must be encouraged to give good accommodatiou—not necessarily of a very high standard, but clean and well kept—and must be given every encouragement to give what we know as the Irish foods and to give Irish cooking, with well done food. I believe that the typical Irish meal of bacon and cabbage, properly cooked, is vastly superior, from the point of view of the standard of catering in our tourist industry, than any number of attempts at continental cooking which just miss. We have several hotels here in Dublin, and one in particular, with a magnificent standard, equal to the best anywhere in Europe, and of which we have every right to be proud. It can boast of first class kitchens by continental standards, but in this country, if we propose to cater for the lower income group of mainly English speaking tourists, from England, from British Commonwealth countries and from America, the smaller hotel with a good standard of plain Irish cooking is the important thing.

I want to say a word about An Tóstal before concluding. I am sorry that the Government seemed to hesitate for a while in regard to An Tóstal. That was a pity because a certain amount of harm was done. An Tóstal is a magnificent idea but, again, like most problems that we face in the tourist industry, it is not one where anybody is going to get quick profits or quick results. I am afraid that I agree with Deputy Lemass in regard to the time of An Tóstal. I think it would be an awful pity to bring it so forward that, in fact, it almost merged with the holiday season. To put it in simple terms, the trouble about what you might call the occupancy of the hotels is that you get too many tourists at the height of the season and that you do not get enough to keep the place going in the later periods. That does not apply to the big hotels in the cities or towns or to the hotels that have a commercial following, but it does refer to hotels that are part of the seasonal tourist industry. They cannot put up all the people who come to them in the summer, and, as they have no one in the winter, they have to let their staffs go. Therefore, the returns over the whole year, in the case of such hotels, are often very poor, and it is very doubtful if there is a profit at all. Therefore, anything that could boost the occupancy of these hotels at what one might describe as the off-peak or valley season of the tourist industry would be enormously valuable. Looked at from the economic point of view alone, and from the business angle anything that would bring An Tóstal too close to the summer season would, I think, ruin its economic potentialities from the long-term point of view.

I think that we have an inferiority complex about the weather in this country. We seem to think that we cannot possibly have any tourists except in June, July and August. This country, as we know, is very attractive in the spring. It has a spring charm of character which is quite unique and which An Fógra Fáilte have managed to put across very well in some of their literature. It should be possible, in five or ten years or maybe more, to establish An Tóstal in such a way as to give the hotels quite a boost in regard to their occupancy at that particular time of the year. There is no doubt but that the city hotels have benefited very considerably from An Tóstal. The benefits of it did not extend to the country, but I feel that that can be done in time. I think it would be a great pity if An Tóstal was allowed to run too close to the height of the summer season. It would mean further overcrowding at that particular time of the year.

Professor O'Brien

I intervene in this debate only because I want to emphasise the great importance of the tourist industry in modern times, in regard to our balance of payments. It is only in modern times that the tourist industry has been regarded seriously as a source of earning external income. Some countries, of course, always have derived a considerable amount of income annually from tourism. I think that, in the last 20 or 30 years, the full importance of the tourist industry in this country has been appreciated from the point of view of earning external income, thereby enabling us to pay our way.

The industry has grown enormously in recent years with the growth in the standard of living of ordinary urban people. In a report published on tourism by O.E.E.C. for the year 1953, it is stated that in O.E.E.C. countries 23,000,000 tourists had arrived, and that this figure will be exceeded in 1954. We are only in the infancy of the organisation of this industry in this country. It is most important that it should be organised on the very best lines. The point I want to make is that in future we may have to rely on it more and more as a source of earning external income. Even now it is the third most important source of our external income. After our visible exports, and our returns from investments, the tourist industry is the most important earner we have of external currency. The possibility of extending our visible exports seems to be rather slight in spite of the excellent report published in to-day's newspapers. Visible exports from Ireland have not been increasing at the rate that people would like. Therefore, we have to rely more and more on our invisible sources of income if we are to keep up our imports and maintain our standard of living.

I do not think it is sufficiently appreciated that our investment income from abroad is becoming a gradually diminishing factor relative to our external payments. That is because our external investments are being slightly depleted. They are not being added to, and it is unlikely that they will be added to in the future. They are falling in purchasing power owing to general inflation in the world. The same nominal amount of external investments does not bring in the same amount of purchasing power owing to this same inflation and to the rise in the value of exports. The total value of our external income from investments is no higher than it used to be. Our external investment income is not equivalently rising, and is becoming a smaller fraction of the total of our external payments. Therefore, if it is not replaced by something else, we will find that our total income has become inadequate.

Unfortunately, the trend of our tourist receipts in the last couple of years has not been very satisfactory. The industry may have got an artificial stimulus in the years immediately following the war, but the fact is that the net receipts from the tourist industry have been going down during the last two or three years. The published figures would seem to emphasise the fact that this is an industry which needs to be nursed. It is an industry which is not favourable to this country. As Senator ffrench-O'Carroll has said, this is not a country which has a great many attractions for the tourist. Therefore, the industry is one which needs to be nursed in an intelligent manner.

I am not going to weary the House with a lot of figures some of which may be slightly speculative. There is no question, however, but that the greater number of our tourists come from the sterling area. In spite of the liners which touch at Dublin and of the Americans who arrive by plane at Shannon, the dollar earnings of the tourist industry do not amount, relatively speaking, to very much. Therefore we have to look at this, as we have in so many other matters, to the potentialities of the British market. There is one point that I should like to make on that. We possess one unique asset in the British market that no other country possesses, that is, the goodwill of the very large number of Irish people working in Great Britain, the emigrants of recent years. Whether we like it or not, emigration to Great Britain is a feature of the Irish economic system. It is too much to hope that it will be discontinued altogether, whatever we do. Therefore, I suggest that the activities of the board should be concentrated on this particular goodwill that we possess. Here is a large number of people with Irish connections who would like to come back to Ireland on their holidays and they should be particularly the object of the propaganda of the new board.

As Senator Hickey said, in modern times leisure is being more and more given to people. In British industry holidays are extending, holidays with pay are obligatory now by law; and Irish workers participate in this leisure as much as other types of workers. These Irish workers in England can be attracted home much more easily than English workers are attracted to Ireland and I suggest the Tourist Board should concentrate on this particular class of goodwill that is already there waiting to be exploited.

There is this point to be made in that connection, as I said, our visible exports do not seem to be expanding very much. Possibly they will expand more in the future. Therefore, every conceivable form of invisible export becomes of great importance. One of our important invisible exports is remittances from emigrants to Great Britain. This amounts every year to a considerable sum. If these emigrants could be encouraged to take all their annual leave and holidays here, they could become a source of a second invisible income, that is to say, we would derive an income not only from their remittances but from their holiday expenditure. Therefore, we would be deriving the maximum benefit we could derive from that movement of people which none of us like but which seems to be inevitable in the facts of the present situation. I know that certain transport organisations in Ireland are alive to these possibilities and are trying to develop that goodwill and I suggest the new Tourist Board should concentrate on that market which is there already waiting to be exploited.

May I suggest to the Minister that he might consider the desirability of a certain type of market research in this matter which, as far as I know, has not yet been undertaken, that is, research into the income groups of the existing tourists? Before we can cater intelligently for tourists we need to know the sort of people likely to come. We have statistics of the total volume of expenditure and what countries it comes from, but as far as I know we have no statistics of the income groups from which it comes. If we had that for the tourists coming in, we would be in a better position to cater for their particular needs. This is a form of market research which goes on in every other industry. They are always making research into the incomes of their potential customers, their spending habits, how they can be developed and so on. We as a nation should make the same research into the income groups of our potential customers and there should be market research of this kind in the British market.

Other speakers have said—and I agree with them—that the rich American—or for that matter the rich European—is not likely to be attracted by what we have to offer and that we should study the changes in fashion in holiday making. The report of O.E.E.C. already quoted draws attention to the fact that the tendency in European countries is towards shorter and more mobile stays by tourists. There is increasing demand for the non-traditional type of accommodation such as camping, holiday centres and youth hostels. In other words, new fashions are growing up in the tourist industry and the old traditional type, of staying in the seaside hotel or boarding house, is going out of fashion, while hiking, youth hostels and so on are coming into fashion. A good, well-managed business—as we hope this Tourist Board will be—should always try to cater for the rising demand of the potential customer, and I suggest there is room there for a considerable amount of market research.

One final point that the board might also consider is this—I think it has been referred to by previous speakers. It would be desirable if visitors could make their Irish hotel reservations from an office in Great Britain, where they should be able to make all their arrangements before they start. It would be desirable also to have a greater degree of co-operation between British and Irish transport services. Our Irish transport services should arrange their time-tables in the light of cross-Channel connections, so as to facilitate tourists and eliminate unnecessary delays.

When it comes to the composition of the board, I hope the Minister will not overweight the membership of the hotel interests, that the transport interests will also be represented. They play a very important part in our tourist industry, their defects and deficiencies have been referred to several times in this debate, and perhaps the best way to make them responsible is to put a representative on the board. These are just two or three points that occurred to me in this discussion and, having made them, I welcome the Bill and congratulate the Minister on the step which he has taken.

Mrs. Dowdall

May I say just a very few words? Our present Minister, like other Ministers and people of great importance in this country, has praised the Irish Tourist Association for what it did. The praise is nearly always in the past tense; in fact, the praise to my ear has become rather like a panegyric and I feel very sad. The work has been done by the Irish Tourist Association within its limited resources —that is accepted—and it is being done still very effectively with the money in hand.

The Minister has promised the Irish Tourist Association that he will include us in the new board, but with all respect I would ask him this one question. will that representation be ministerial nomination or direct representation from our association, that board to consult us about the all-over policy of tourism? We have had in the past, as the Minister told us, representation on one of the statutory bodies, but for all the benefit it was to the Irish Tourist Association we might not have had it at all. We were never told whether they were our representatives or ministerial nominations. I would ask the Minister to answer that question.

It is important in the working of the Tourist Association—I am a member of it—and I feel that we are people of average intelligence. I never think— and I do not think it is accepted—that all the intelligence is housed in a place in Merrion Square or in the brains of the Civil Service. I think there is a fair amount of intelligence and a lot of useful information, knowledge and help available and that must be used. It will not be used if we in the Irish Tourist Association are not given scope to supply the knowledge that we have. Having representation on a statutory board is not as satisfactory to us as the Minister in all his honesty may think. We want that position cleared up.

I will give one small example of the sort of paternalism we suffer through this arrangement that we have now, this sort of paternalism that treats a voluntary organisation as an irresponsible child or a rather senile person. It is rather frustrating when we need an addition of staff, perhaps a temporary or junior typist and when we find, as in recent weeks, that we have correspondence to the effect that we must not make such decisions or such appointments without previous permission and authority from the board. I maintain that that is not the way to treat a responsible group of people. It all sounds very rosy. I know the Minister means to treat the Irish Tourist Association with all respect and give it all the responsibility he thinks it is worthy of. On paper that responsibility is there, but in fact I give that one example, that we are not permitted to think of appointing even a junior typist without permission and authority from the board. I speak about this Irish Tourist Association position as one thing in which I am interested. All the other points have been ably dealt with—the points in regard to hotels, transport and so on.

I would like to support my friend from Cork, Senator Hickey, about the C.I.E. bus depot. If any other body with so many vehicles left them in the roadway to cause obstruction like C.I.E. does in Cork, they would be in court every other day. They are using the main streets as garages and no private individual would be allowed to do that. I maintain that C.I.E. is daily breaking the local by-laws. I am sure that if any other firm left its lorries and trucks on the streets, as C.I.E. does, they would be consistently in court. That is a point which C.I.E. should bear in mind.

The Minister also mentioned sign-posting. He will recollect that we asked him to include us in the Bill in that regard but we did not succeed in that. We did make proposals to him and I am sure he has them before him with regard to certain things that we could do as well as any other group. We say that we could do this work equally well with any other group. It was we who set up the machinery which has now done such good publicity work but we did not have the money to go as far as has been gone now. Senator Stanford mentioned Ireland of the Welcomes which he thinks was better than the publication brought out by us. It is our publicity and our machinery and our photographs and photographic files that are being used now. We are the group that set up this very fine organisation which is doing such very good publicity work now, and we feel that we should be left that work to do.

The Minister mentioned sign-posting. There again, with our influence with the local authorities, we are the people who could best do the sign-posting with our local knowledge of history and local conditions.

I wish to draw attention to a publication that came out some time ago. It was about Cork and after two days I had 25 letters from different people drawing attention to inaccuracies which would never have occurred if the local people had been consulted. These went to the extent of making the mistake of saying that our school of art was built from one stone when in fact it was built from another. That was done from Dublin.

I would ask the Minister to give us specific functions. As I have said we have not the authority to appoint even a typist and I would ask the Minister to specify the functions which we have. I know that he will say that we have representation and that it is up to us but there again statutory bodies feel that matters should be more precise. They have one file and do not want to have another one. If we had specific functions such as sign-posting of the country roads and towns and publicity, I feel that we could do them equally well with any other body.

Miss Davidson

While agreeing with Senator Ó Buachalla that many of our hoteliers have done a very fine job, I feel that in this country there are still very many hotels which certainly reflect no great credit on us. There are many hotels in different towns which leave very much to be desired in the ordinary interests of cleanliness and comfort, apart altogether from such questions as the general dullness and drabness which we find in them. Any of us who has had occasion to visit what might be assumed to be a good hotel, has been shocked at the condition of these establishments. Many of us have had to endure hotel bedrooms with soiled wallpaper which has probably been there for 50 years. While fitted with modern toilet fittings, running water, and telephones, they have furniture made up of odds and ends that should long since have been turned into firewood. I think the Minister could not be too firm with whatever section of the board is responsible for checking up on hotel accommodation, especially hotel bedrooms and toilet accommodation. In two particular cases I have in mind, the furniture presented an appalling appearance of drabness and dullness and in fact one might describe the whole appearance of the bedrooms as being only near clean.

Another point which the Tourist Board might keep an eye on is the immediate outlook from the hotel windows. Recently I noticed that the outlook from many of the windows of a hotel in an important tourist centre showed a scene of derelict buildings, broken windows and collapsed roofs. Any tourist from abroad might be justified in thinking that Ireland had suffered very severe bombing and had not yet been able to clear the damage. The Minister might press whatever section of the board is responsible, to consider the outlook from hotel windows.

We should try to convey to our visitors that we have, both in our hotels and in our homes, a high standard of cleanliness and comfort as well as good taste in fittings and furniture especially for the accommodation which we would offer to the visitors we are so anxious to bring to our country.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

Other Senators in speaking on this Bill have said a number of the things that I had intended to say. I do not want to dwell at length, consequently, on the great work that has been done already by Fógra Fáilte in putting Ireland on the international map and in "selling" the country abroad. I am, I must admit, a little puzzled as to why it should suddenly become apparent that we must have, not three bodies but two, and as to why there should be this amalgamation. However, I accept the Minister's statement that both bodies have asked to be amalgamated, and I set aside the doubt which was in my mind that Fógra Fáilte might have been doing too well, and might have been creating jealousy by the excellence of its work. Reference has already been made to the excellent publications which it has issued. I endorse entirely the praise given to it, to the colour photography, and to the general lay-out. The setting and the technique, or presentation, are first class.

I should now like to say something about hotels that has not been said up to the present, and that is in relation to their chameleon prices. The fact is that prices on the official lists in the hotels tend to change tone and colour according to the tourist who is being entertained. I think that one of the worst advertisements for a country is to leave the impression on the mind of the tourist that he is being done, is being overcharged. Many of our visitors are rather too meek about this kind of thing, indeed, and do not kick up enough row. I should like the Minister's assurance that the new board will be very firm and strong in dealing with such complaints.

I should like to say something also about the official price lists. They are usually of two or three kinds. There is a seasonal high price and an out-of-season low price, and sometimes an in-between price as well. I should like to put the view that while such seasonal prices are justified, in the main, for hotels in outlying districts, I would seriously question whether they are justified in the case of Dublin. Are our Dublin hotels justified in enormously increasing their prices during, say, Horse Show Week? What, in fact, do the Irish hotels contribute to what is known as Horse Show Week? I would suggest that the increased amount of charge extracted from tourists during Horse Show Week, or any other festival, is a form of quite unearned increment, raked into the tills of the hotels, which in the main in Dublin are pretty full all the year round. I do not like the notion that at festival periods we charge our guests higher prices than we would charge them in the normal way.

I should like now to advert to something the Minister mentioned and to which nobody else has yet referred. He mentioned that originally he had intended to add an English title after the Irish title of the board. I think he was mistaken in allowing himself to be persuaded to drop the English title. My belief is—though I realise it may well be too late for the Minister to change his mind again on this subject —that he made a mistake in not sticking to his original intention to include in brackets after the Irish title an English title. I believe the attitude of those who are opposed to giving, side by side with an Irish title, an English title, is an unreal one. They want to call both bodies by a single Irish name. That is unreal. In relation to words, phrases and their validity in ordinary speech, there is only one test. Do the people use them? Are they in general use? In regard to the present case, it is generally recognised, apparently, according to the Dáil debates, that if you give the ordinary public half a chance, they will prefer to call this new board by its English title, because that, in fact, is what would come normally to the tongue. We should remember that it is not only the function of the board to attract the foreigner but also to cater for the ordinary Irish public.

The aim of such a board ought to be at any rate to make it easy for a foreigner to know what it is all about, to write to the correct office and so on. I suggest, with respect, that a hotel manager would not think of saying: "With your application please enclose a réul postal order" or "Please enclose a dhá phingin stamp". Despite the fact that the only appellations on our coins and stamps are, as a rule, in Irish, we still talk about a "sixpenny bit" or a "twopenny stamp". I suggest that the attitude is unreal which suggests that, in fact, the revival of Irish is in any way being served by laying it down by law that we shall use Irish titles only.

I noticed that an argument put forward in the Dáil, on this point, was that the French called their tourist board by a French name, but that, in fact, is by no means universally true. The French tend, naturally enough, to use their mother tongue at home, for the use of their own people. The phrase "mother tongue" means something. In fact, it means the tongue that is most widely used in the home; but the French abroad, when referring to their own organisations, do not talk, say, in London about the "S.N.C.F." They talk about "French railways". Their advertisements in our own papers for tourists travelling to France are based on an English translation. They translate, realistically, whenever they think it will help the foreign tourist to understand what it is all about. That seems to me to be logical and sound common sense.

We would not think of publishing advertisements in the United States or Britain exclusively in Irish. Indeed, many of these advertisements already make the point that an English speaking tourist has no currency difficulties and no language difficulties in coming to Ireland. That is a vital selling-point, and is so considered by such advertisements. I think consequently, that the Minister was wrong to allow himself to be bustled out of his original logical suggestion.

And this has nothing to do with the Gaelic revival. This, of course, is not the place for discussing the whole language policy, but to me it seems that the refusal in this case to include the English title is nothing more than a piece of window-dressing and a most ineffective one at that. I was under the impression that Deputy Lemass, the present Minister's predecessor, was very shocked at the notion that we could include a little bit of English after the Irish title. I think he was the first person to bring up this matter in the Dáil debate. Yet, I notice that the first copy of that excellent production, Ireland, which came out in May, 1952, contained on its front page a reasonably good photograph of Deputy Seán Lemass, with a very friendly little letter from him welcoming people to Ireland, but bang opposite this photograph there was a statement that the journal was the “official journal of Fógra Fáilte, the National Tourist Publicity Organisation for Ireland”. Admittedly, that is not as succinct as what was suggested by the present Minister in the first place, “Irish Tourist Board”, but it is certainly not Irish. I think that points to the fact, as I suggested, that there was a good deal of window-dressing about the “strong fears” expressed in the Dáil as to the inclusion or omission of an English title.

I should like to say something about the Tóstal. A good deal has been said already, and I would agree with most of what was said on the matter, notably by Senators Stanford and ffrench-O'Carroll. The Tóstal has been laughed at, but it is very easy to laugh at a new festival of this kind. I think it was quite wrongfully laughed at. The fact that it made mistakes was absolutely inevitable; but as a stimulus, at that time of the year, for the purpose of producing something in the nature of a festival, not only in Dublin but throughout the country, it merits admiration and encouragement, not only for the effort but also for the results.

In my opinion any excuse which will encourage people to decorate the cities and the countryside, and brighten up the appearance of the houses in the spring, and decorate the streets and parks with flowers and plants, merits special encouragement, and is very welcome indeed. Moreover, throughout the country there have been praiseworthy attempts to have local Tóstal displays, festivals, arts and crafts exhibitions and so on. It has been extraordinarily valuable from every point of view quite apart from the tourist trade, because it encouraged local pride and local research into local talent and resources. I believe that the Seanad will welcome the Minister's statement that the Tóstal, with all its faults—it was not perfect by any means—is to be retained. It has lessons also, I think, for certain of our holiday resorts, whether they be at the sea or in the mountains.

Senator Hickey made the point that many of our resorts are either tawdry or show a complete lack of imagination in the presentation of the natural amenities. On that point, I am afraid that every part of the country is very much behind in what it should be doing. I would ask the Seanad to consider for a moment what is the best indoor swimming pool in Dublin. I think it would be with temerity that we would say we would like to take an interested foreigner around what may be regarded as our premier indoor swimming pool in Dublin. It is a disgrace to the capital city and the fact that we have nothing better to offer is something that should be remedied very quickly. Indoor swimming pools are only one aspect of the whole question of facilities for tourists and we have had some other suggestions from Senator Hickey which are worthy of attention by the Tourist Board. Facilities should be made available for boating and sailing also, and these should be available not only for the owners of yachts and boats but also on hire for the ordinary popular holiday-maker.

I should like to see the development of such amenities not only exclusively and primarily for foreign tourists but for our own holiday-makers who spend their holidays at home. I would suggest that the attention of the Tourist Board be directed by the Minister to this aspect of our tourist traffic, which, I think, should never be overlooked. Irish holiday-makers should be given special facilities in Irish holiday resorts. In France in 1936 when the first Popular Front Government came into power, it created a certain amount of amusement by creating a new Ministry known as the Ministry for Leisure. I could imagine that if the present Government introduced such a Ministry it would be in for a good deal of banter from say Dublin Opinion, and it might even be suggested that some of the present Ministers could fill the bill as Ministers for Leisure. However, in all seriousness, I would suggest that at the ministerial level it would be worth while considering whether we have put enough organisation into making holidays available for Irish workers. I would like to suggest in that connection that certain hotels could be set aside which would give special rates for workers and make holidays possible for them in many of the Irish resorts. This would do much to encourage holidays amongst our own people in the lower income groups. I would suggest, in conclusion, that if we succeeded in getting prices, amenities and conditions right for our own people then we would have them right for the foreigners. For that reason, among others, I welcome the Bill and look forward to its future work both for the foreign tourist and for the Irish holiday-maker.

Mr. Hawkins

I would, first of all, like to congratulate the Minister on maintaining the Irish term in the Bill. He has put before us this evening a query as to the transference of functions from one body to another. I think, however, he has not given us any real reasons why these functions should be so transferred.

I would like to ask the Minister is he satisfied that the board to which he is now going to transfer these functions has already exercised the functions that this House placed upon it in such a satisfactory manner as to warrant getting from us these new functions? Has the Irish Tourist Board in the Minister's view carried out its functions, in relation to the grading of hotels, to his satisfaction, and have we now reached the stage that there should be no more progress in this line of development? That is the first question.

Another point is that the Irish Tourist Board is the authority charged with the development of Irish tourist resorts. It has certain obligations to build up local development associations. Provision was made in the Bill that the board would be in a position to make available to local associations facilities for development of these local development associations. How far has this body gone in that regard and is the Minister satisfied with its activities in this direction? We had here to-night and in the other House references made to sign-posting. Many of the speakers have directed their attention to this question of sign-posting in our towns and villages. I think what is more important still, more important in relation to American tourists, is the question of our historic places. We have here many historic places. One of the functions with which this board was charged was to direct the attention of our tourists to such places as these. Has it done that? Is the Minister and is this House satisfied that this board has carried out its functions in all these matters up to date?

The Minister has stated there has not been that co-ordination and co-operation as between the boards and he now proposes to abolish one of these bodies. That body has done its job efficiently. Its obligation was that it would, as it were, sell this country to the tourists and those who were prepared to come here. If the Minister could show to us that they did not fulfil that function, then I think we would be entitled to support him in this Bill, but he has not done that. He has not even attempted to do it. He has not even attempted here or in the other House to show how this board has carried out the obligations placed on it.

Sitting suspended at 6 o'clock and resumed at 7 o'clock.

Mr. Hawkins

There is an aspect of this matter to which I should like to direct the attention of the Seanad in relation to An Tóstal. The original suggestion for the holding of this event was not acceptable to some people in this country and it is quite understandable why that should be so, in view of the fact that An Tóstal was associated with a particular event—the national event of 1916. It is quite understandable that one of the leading papers in this country should not give its approval to any suggestion of a revival of that period. I suggest that An Tóstal, having regard to its association with that period, is a festival to which we should give every encouragement.

One of the points was that if we were to encourage our people in America to come to Ireland at any particular period, it would be just in that period we should encourage them to do so. I do not wish at this stage to delay very much on this except to say that the Minister should be with us in giving us his approval rather than his disapproval on an occasion of this kind. I may be asked: "Why do you say these things?" The reason is that if you want to make a reasonable approach to this, having associated An Tóstal with 1916, you must naturally associate that particular period with the people who were involved in those times. I would hate to think, and I am sure the Minister would be with me in this, that it is because of the people who were associated with that period that we can no longer have An Tóstal.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator must try not to repeat himself.

Mr. Hawkins

I do not wish to repeat myself. I would not like to repeat myself, except to say that it is an old saying in Irish philosophy that "history repeats itself". I do not know why that should be so, but to my mind it is just exactly so.

When Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Finance, he came here to this House and said that there were two things he would do. I may not be quite correct in quoting what the then Minister said. One of the things he said he would do was draw back the blinds in the institution of the Tóstal Association. He was going to give us in this House something that was to be a presentation to us. He told us then that he was going to economise in the development of the Tourist Association. I said at the outset, that my remarks were going to be directed to one of these things, that history repeats itself. History does repeat itself, but where and how? History repeats itself in this connection that we have here before us a Bill presented by a member of the Labour Party. No doubt the suggestions in it must have been made by no less a person than Deputy McGilligan when he stated in this House: "I am going to open the windows; I am going to let in the daylight into this whole Tourist Development Association". I am sorry, having regard to all these statements, that he has now found an instrument to implement these suggestions in no less a person than the Tánaiste, Deputy Norton.

I set out to-night to ask the Minister a few very pertinent questions. He has not answered them and I do not believe he is in a position to do so. I feel that he is just an instrument in implementing the suggestion that was made by Deputy McGilligan when Minister for Finance. If we are seriously asked to give approval to what the Minister has proposed to us, then I think the Minister should answer my questions. If he is not prepared to do that, then he is not in a position to answer the questions. Is the Minister satisfied that the board, to which he is now going to hand over the obligations set out, have carried out the functions already deputed to them by this and the other House? Is he satisfied that they have carried out these functions as they should have?

I propose, with your permission, to go just one field further. If I am not in order I am prepared to accept your ruling. As a representative from one of the particular counties which has contributed very much to the development of tourism and which is always prepared to do its share, I would like to ask this, provided I am in order. Am I in order?

An Cathaoirleach

I do not know. The Senator must put his question first. I cannot tell whether he is in order or not until I hear what he is trying to say.

Mr. Hawkins

Over quite a number of years, we have an organisation throughout the country known as the Irish Tourist Association. I suggest that it is not fair for the Minister to place us under this very severe obligation—an obligation on which I personally am not prepared to exercise my vote—when he puts us this question, as it were: "I believe that the Irish Tourist Association has done very useful work and I am prepared as Minister to give that body representation on certain conditions." I want to know what those conditions are. In Galway we have been very generous in supporting this Tourist Association but there is one thing we are not going to do— and I think every member here will join with me in saying the same thing —we are not going to have the Minister decide what the contribution of the local authority should be, to demand that they should have representation on this particular body. We need from the Minister a very clear and definite statement as to what representation he is going to give to this body.

I think it was Roger Casement who, on his first visit to Galway, spoke of the people of Galway as "slumbering by day and sleeping by night." We may be slumbering by day and sleeping by night, but we have the hospitality of the Irish people and all these things for which we are noted in this country. When a particular association meets in Galway what do we find? This organisation instituted to develop tourism comes to Galway on a Thursday morning and leaves on Thursday evening. There is no question of having consultation, as there should have been, with the people of Galway. One may say that these are things that could have been discussed between the representatives of the various associations. For quite a long time I have been associated with the trade union organisation of this country and I felt this was something on which we might at least have a discussion. It was one of these things that could have happened and that might be developed over a number of years, it was one of the things that should at least have the approval or disapproval of the Minister. When, as a representative of various bodies in Galway, I made representations to the Minister and pointed the position out to his Department, I was shocked to find in his reply that these people, in his view, were quite justified in engaging in this particular industry. I might not be entirely fair. A number of Senators here might have said: "Well, you have not explained to us what these industries were." It was this, that we have in Galway and I am sure that we have in other places also set up an industry with the approval of the Minister to sell their goods. I want to say very definitely and emphatically——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator must try and relate what he is saying to the Bill.

Mr. Hawkins

I personally approve of having displays in C.I.E. hotels but I certainly am not and will not be prepared to allow these hotel proprietors to engage in the sale of these proprietary goods that they are engaged on at the moment. If I have not made myself quite clear——

An Cathaoirleach

I am afraid the Senator has not related that statement to anything in the Bill.

Mr. Hawkins

All right. I want to ask the Minister a question. Does he now propose to allow C.I.E. in Galway, Mulrany, or any other place to engage in the sale of articles in competition with the local drapery trade?

An Cathaoirleach

Would the Senator relate his statement to anything in the Bill? If not, he cannot continue in this strain because he is obviously straining the patience of the House.

Mr. Hawkins

This is one of the questions on which I want an answer from the Minister.

An Cathaoirleach

It is not relevant to the Bill.

Mr. Hawkins

I am not too sure about that. However, I accept the Cathaoirleach's ruling. At the same time we are asked to-night to give to the Minister a Bill. I have asked a question and I think I am entitled to get an answer to it. If the Minister is not in a position to answer these questions, naturally enough we will not be expected to give the Minister what he wants from us.

Mr. Burke

The Minister, when introducing this Bill, mentioned that he was perturbed with regard to the facilities which British Railways were giving from time to time on the Holyhead route. That gives me an opportunity of dealing with an aspect of the matter which has not been touched upon by other speakers. There are several other ways, leaving out the question of air transport, of entering Ireland than by the Holyhead route. If the Minister proposes to take up the matter with his opposite number in Britain, the British Minister of Transport, I think he might do something that would be of permanent benefit to the tourist industry in this country.

The matter of the facilities available in southern ports such as Rosslare, Waterford and Cork is not, in my opinion, receiving the same attention from the powers that be as the port of Dublin and the port of Holyhead. I would like to suggest that sleeper facilities would be made available from Fishguard to London on the mail train connecting with Cork, Waterford and Rosslare steamer. I would make a further suggestion and that is that the Rosslare mail steamer should leave several hours later from Paddington so that it would arrive in Fishguard at, say, 4 a.m. That would give an opportunity to people travelling by that route to have more time in London and to be able to use the sleepers on the return journey. What happens at the moment is that the train arrives so early that the company have to bring back the sleepers. My suggestion would have another advantage. The train that would leave could be used as the ordinary day train travelling to Waterford, Clonmel, Limerick, and the West. When the boat trains arrive early there is a duplicate service running two and three hours later. I think that in the case of economy in the use of transport my suggestion would obviate such duplication.

I think we have not given enough consideration to these matters in the development of our tourist trade. These ports constitute the main reception halls for those who visit our country and we ought to make them as attractive as possible. I think we should have some officer like they have in Denmark. He broadcasts in various languages telling the people of all the facilities available at the port of entry and where they may get them. It gives the tourist the impression that he is being looked after from the time he enters the country. I was glad to see the Minister was of the opinion that the type of facilities and the welcome people would like to receive were not being extended to them at the principal port of entry to this country—Dún Laoghaire.

I think it was suggested in the other House that in regard to the southern ports which cater in large measure for tourists bringing their own cars to Ireland, the shipping companies should be asked to give reduced rates during the off-season. Senator ffrench-O'Carroll and others mentioned that we ought to try and extend the period beyond the months of June, July and August. I believe that if the shipping companies took in tourists' own passenger cars at a reduced rate during the months of April, May, September and October it would be a very fruitful way of extending the tourist season. It might even be a profitable business for the shipping companies. I would suggest to the Minister that that is a matter which should be taken up vigorously with his opposite number in Britain.

There was much talk about the various boards. Personally, I could never see why we wanted to have more than one board to look after tourism. You have a very effective voluntary body that has been working here for the last 25 years or so, and the more powers that can be given to that body, the better. The more people that can be encouraged to interest themselves in a voluntary way in tourism and its promotion the better for the development of tourism in this country.

Coming back to the board, it has struck me that with the number of interests that have to be considered in appointing a board, it might be desirable to have a board with a membership somewhat larger than the seven suggested. I presume interests like these will not be adequately represented by a particular person. We must remember that there are shipping interests, hotel interests, air line and other interests. While you may have sufficient talent covering the various facets of tourism on a board of seven, it may be that other interests would have to be considered. That is something which I am sure has been considered but I would like to suggest that it might be desirable to take powers to extend the number of members on the board.

The Minister said in his opening address that it was now proposed to give the board the title of "An Bord Fáilte Éireann." I think he should have adhered to the original idea of having the title in Irish and in English, because if you are going to encourage tourists from Britain, middle-class tourists from Britain, they would like to see the Irish and the English titles used. They are easier to understand. Many of these people may be travelling outside their own country for the first time, and if they are familiar with the language and the names they represent I think they will feel less inclined to stay at home.

The second matter is the benefit which we would derive from the use of the English language. The English language to-day is undoubtedly a growing international language in commerce and I think that we are very fortunate in that, when we were invaded, we were invaded by a country whose language became a language widely known in commerce. We might have been invaded by pirates, speaking some dialect of a Barbary nature, as a second language, but we happen to have as a second language, a language which is growing in use in international trade and commerce in the world. That language in fact has now almost become the recognised diplomatic language in the world, and I think it is of enormous advantage for us. The Germans, French, Italians and Spaniards all strive to take the English language as a second language. If these people from England can come here as tourists and know the language they will have complete access to the things they want and they will be happier amongst us because they will be able to talk a common language with us. That is something that should not be lost sight of.

Another point on which I wish to comment is that of sign-posting. I think in many cases there is a lamentable lack of sign-posting in this country. In one county which I think has the best roads in the country, there is the worst possible system of sign-posting of roads. I would like to suggest to the Minister that he might ask the Minister for Local Government to send a directive to the county councils asking them to put up sign-posts and road signs which would indicate the principal towns and places in the country. I know of one first-class tourist resort in the South and one of the main roads out of it leading north and west, has only one sign-post which indicates the village only five miles away. Nothing is being done to deal with that situation and I believe that that is because no directive has ever been given from the Local Government Department to the county managers or county engineers. I would like to see this whole question dealt with. I want to say that where new signs were put up by the board, they were very good, but they only filled about 25 per cent. of the needs of the country.

In provincial towns in Britain where I have been, one finds a number of good hotels without any unnecessary pretentious approach. These are hotels which cater for the average English tourist. We could set up similar hotels here. I am not saying that all our hotels are not as good as these. In fact some of them are a lot better but we could aim at these as a general standard. If we did that, there would be no need to send people to the four corners of the world to learn all about the working of hotels because we would be catering for the people who would be coming here, providing them with their type of menu and giving them food that they would not get in foreign countries.

Senator O'Brien remarked in his opening statement that our visible exports were not expanding sufficiently. I am afraid I cannot agree with him in that respect. There has been a diminution of what might be called the aftermath of war exports such as chocolate, sweets, and those things, but in the long run our principal and main exports, the produce of the soil of the country, have been increasing rapidly.

Mr. Murphy

The Minister must be feeling satisfied by the interest which has been shown in the Seanad in the matter of the tourist industry. Looking on it as an industry giving employment and a livelihood to some thousands of our people, I would welcome any step which would rationalise the industry and make it more efficient. Whilst it is a very important industry, it would be wrong to look at it out of proportion because the position is that the net receipts for 1953 were £20,000,000, a drop from £26,000,000 in 1949. That drop in the net receipts was due to two factors. One welcome factor was that a number of our people went abroad and spent more money abroad. A most unwelcome development was that there was a reduction in the number of tourists coming into the country. The total expenditure of visitors to the Republic, in 1953, was estimated at £30,000,000, that is £1,000,000 less than the previous year.

The breakdown of that figure is of some interest and I think it is worth looking at. It is estimated that £13.1 million was spent by cross-Channel visitors; the surprising total of £13,000,000 by cross-Border visitors; the comparatively small amount of £2.2 million by other overseas visitors; and another £1.6 million, to make up the £30,000,000, is accounted for by adjustments between transport undertakings. It should be noted that two-fifths of the estimated money spent by visitors to the Republic came from cross-Border visitors, and, while we talk about the importance of bringing people from overseas and from Britain, it must be remembered that a very important make-up of the figure is the money spent by the cross-Border visitors, some of them our own kith and kin.

Of the money spent by the visitors, another breakdown shows that 52 per cent. of it was spent by people who described themselves as tourists; 30 per cent. by people visiting relatives; and some 10 per cent. by people coming here for business purposes; so that here again it will be seen that a surprisingly large amount of the income arising from tourism comes from our own people, the emigrants who are returning for a holiday and to visit their friends and relatives. I am not saying or attempting to put to the Seanad, that the breakdown of the figure gives the picture that the tourist industry is of less importance than we would suppose, but it is no harm that we should realise (a) the importance of the cross-Border visitors, and (b) the importance of our own people, returning emigrants coming here for holidays. As well, of course, it could be said that the £30,000,000 mentioned does not represent the whole value of the industry, because I suppose a somewhat similar amount is spent by our own people here who have taken the very good advice to "See Ireland first."

In the discussion, mention was made on all sides of the service given by British Railways. I should hate to imagine that we should be looking at this problem with our ideas coloured by the fact that the service is named British Railways. I note with some amusement that even in Northern Ireland criticisms, and very strong criticisms, are voiced of the service given there by British Railways, so it could not be that there is any discrimination on a political basis in the service rendered by British Railways to the tourist industry of this country. I would ask that before he makes further approaches or further protests in regard to the service rendered on the Dún Laoghaire-Holyhead route, the Minister might see to it that we put our own house in order. I have travelled that route on quite a few occasions and I may say that the most annoying part of the journey is that between Dún Laoghaire and Westland Row. At least, British Railways in the past year or so have provided new rolling stock, and very good rolling stock, on the Irish Mail running between Euston and Holyhead; but one would really be ashamed of being an Irishman when, on getting off the boat at Dún Laoghaire, one finds decrepit looking carriages with the doors locked and finds that one is chased around the platform for one's ticket before the door is unlocked to allow one to enter a very poor compartment.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

Where the light is out.

Mr. Murphy

In all probability, the light is not working. Before we venture too far in protesting against the service rendered by British Railways, let us put our own house in order.

As I have travelled that route on numerous occasions, I must confess that I am somewhat puzzled by the protests made by Senators here. Admittedly, I have no experience of the Dover-Calais route and I cannot make the comparison, but, as I have said, it seems to me that British Railways have provided up to date and very good rolling stock and they are this year, as I see by the newspapers, quickening the service to Holyhead.

I find nothing to complain of in regard to the accommodation on the steamers, but there is one very major complaint, however, which has probably brought about the storm, that is, that they do not base any relief steamers at Dún Laoghaire, and, when there is a rush of traffic from Ireland, they have to await relief from Holyhead.

We had an instance of that recently when there was a rush of visitors returning to England after Christmas, and all returning at the same time because of the threat of a rail strike in Britain. British Railways were, I think, at fault in not expecting that rush of traffic, but I am wondering if there was a fault nearer home. Let me be blunt about it. I think that our own public transport undertaking, C.I.E., probably coloured by a recent administration, take no great pains about cooperating with other transport undertakings. It seems to me that co-operation between C.I.E. and British Railways—and I mean co-operation—would have beneficial results in regard to the facilities for tourists to this country.

In regard to that co-operation, as I have already touched on the importance and value of the cross-Border visitors, Senators will recall that some two years ago a service was inaugurated from Belfast to Cork. That service has unfortunately been discontinued. There is the impression, rightly or wrongly, that C.I.E. did not welcome very much the co-operation necessary in running that through service between Cork and Belfast.

While I have criticised our own public transport undertaking in regard to their apparent lack of co-operation with other transport concerns, might I say that I think great credit is due to them and to Aer Lingus in regard to the publicity work which they have done in furtherance of our drive for an improvement in the number of visitors to our shores. C.I.E. have made great advance forward in regard to the coach tours which are becoming more popular and more widely known in Britain. They have helped the tourist industry materially by the colour film which some members of the House may have seen: "Ireland of the Welcomes".

Mention was also made in the debate in regard to the shipping of cars between Great Britain and this country. I think that is of very great importance. I was glad that Senator O'Brien drew attention to the O.E.E.C. report which referred to the modern trend in tourism. That is definitely a modern and important trend in tourism. I know that, in Northern Ireland in the past few weeks, arrangements have been made to air ferry cars and their occupants between Heysham and, I think, Belfast. It is looked upon as an important development in Northern Ireland, and I was wondering whether, as the shipping companies have taken no steps to boost this traffic, Aer Lingus could not, instead of disposing of their "Wayfarers", turn these planes into service for shipping cars between this country and say Holyhead or its neighbourhood. I think there is a very useful field there that could be developed. There may be difficulties with regard to this country and Britain, and I would ask that the Minister would have this matter looked into.

As I have referred to the need for co-operation, there is one other matter which, I think, should be mentioned. The first people whom visitors usually meet when they arrive in this country are the customs officials. They are competent people, but, while being competent, I think that service would be more useful if it had a course in public relations. I have blushed at seeing certain scenes at ports of disembarkation and at the Border where our representatives, wearing "the harp", have been described, and I am afraid sometimes truthfully, as cabogs. I would hope that the importance of the tourist industry would be brought home to that service, and that while conducting their work efficiently they should do it with some greater degree of tact.

This Bill proposes to merge An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte. I note that the Minister intends to give representation on the new board to representatives of the Irish Tourist Association. The Irish Tourist Association is a voluntary, and a very worthy, organisation. It represents people who are vitally interested in the industry, namely, the hotel proprietors. I hope that the Minister and the new board will look at and examine critically the system of inspection of hotels on which the grading is based. I have had experience, and so also, I am sure, have other Senators, of being rather puzzled at the different grading of hotels in towns scattered around Ireland.

One may sometimes wonder, and sometimes I think question why one hotel is in such a grade while a far better hotel is in a lower grade. I am sure the reasons are that the accommodation might not be up to a certain standard in the latter hotel, but too often I have been given the answer that the other hotel, or its proprietor, is well in politically. If there is any truth in that sort of report or that sort of answer, it is to be regretted very much. Even if there is no truth in it, it is to be regretted that there should be any suspicion in the matter. I am afraid I must confess to having that suspicion. I would ask that the Minister would take care to ensure that the system of inspection would be fair and above board, and that it should not be subject to pull or pressure. Further, I would ask that the people who conduct this system of inspection should try to get from the hotel proprietors and their staffs co-operation. Too often, they are looked upon as Gestapo people, people who want to catch out the proprietors or their staffs, and so there is always resentment and suspicion in regard to their inspections. That could be improved, and though it is not of major importance it would help in developing a sense of the importance of the tourist industry. It would improve the accommodation and service which the visitors and the poor natives get in our hotels.

Mr. Cogan

In relation to the brevity of this Bill the debate has been rather prolonged and it is not my intention to prolong it further. I would like emphatically to underline the remarks made by Senator Mrs. Dowdall. There is no doubt that it will be fatal to this whole project of developing the tourist industry if the Irish Tourist Association is killed or permitted to die. Every effort should be made now to strengthen the Irish Tourist Association because no Government or semi-Government body can inject life and activity into the tourist business without the active co-operation of those engaged in tourism.

The Bill proposes to merge two existing bodies. You cannot reason offhand that you are creating greater efficiency by reducing the number from three to two. You can reason that if you reduce the number to one, as they are all discharging the same functions, you are making for efficiency; but a reduction from three to two does not necessarily have that effect. In the geographical unit of Ireland we have two separate Parliaments. If there were a third co-ordinating the two, it might have a more unifying effect rather than the effect of creating greater disunity. One cannot build a case for the Bill on that basis. Most Senators will concede that if the Minister believes those two statutory bodies merged together will work efficiently, it would be well to give the idea a trial. Our main aim should be to co-ordinate the whole industry by bringing the Irish Tourist Association more actively into line with this movement.

The Minister says that the Irish Tourist Association will have representations on Bord Fáilte Éireann, but it is a pity that there is nothing in the Bill to provide for that. It is still more a pity that there are no provisions in the Bill to ensure that those representatives will be elected by the Irish Tourist Association. If that were done, the Irish Tourist Association would be drawn more closely into the whole tourist organisation and Bord Fáilte Éireann would become in reality the committee of management of a vast co-operative tourist movement. That is what it should be if it is to be a success. I am sufficiently optimistic to hope that that will be the line of development, that the Minister will ensure close co-operation between the new board and the Irish Tourist Association.

I hope that the representatives of the Irish Tourist Association who are appointed will be in very close contact with that association and its members. State bodies such as C.I.E. or Bord na Móna or the Irish Sugar Company can operate efficiently without a great deal of backing in the matter of organisation—provided they have the raw materials and the capital, they can operate—but such a State body as a tourist board cannot operate even for one day effectively without the active co-operation of those in this industry. That is why we should aim at making this new board, in effect if not in law, the committee of management of a vast co-operative tourist association.

I would like those engaged in this industry, whether they be hoteliers or others who benefit by its development, to be able to make their influence felt upon the board. It would be altogether wrong if this board and its officials and inspectors were to become a bugbear to those engaged in the business. For example, if hoteliers feel that the officials are merely spying upon them and obstructing them and if they resent their visits, we cannot make the progress we would like to make; but if hoteliers feel that the board is working on behalf of the industry and trying to make it more efficient, all those engaged in it will give their wholehearted co-operation and support. That is the most urgent need at present.

I do not think we should make disparaging remarks about the tourists who come here from Britain or even across the Border. They come at considerable inconvenience and under very substantial hazards, but it is not right to say that they would come in any case, even if we had no tourist organisation or tourist facilities. Some of them would come as Irish emigrants to visit their parents or friends in Ireland but with the better facilities, perhaps, greater numbers would come and come more often. That would be all to the advantage of the tourist industry.

I would ask the Minister if it is not possible—I suppose at this stage it is hardly possible—to amend the Bill in some way so as to give statutory recognition or power to the Irish Tourist Association; but at least I think he should give an assurance that that body should have effective representation on the new board.

Mr. S.T. Ruane

I listened to practically every speaker who rose either in support or criticism of this Bill. As a result, there is very little I can offer by way of suggestion to the Minister. I am sure he has taken note of the points he considered should be underlined by the new board that has to be set up and that he will see that that board carries out these instructions to the best of their ability.

Deserved tributes were paid to the bodies that have already made a contribution towards the development and expansion of tourism in this country, namely the Irish Tourist Association, Fógra Fáilte, and An Bord Fáilte. I think that at least one or two Senators asked, that if they had done such work and if there was little by way of adverse criticism that could be levelled at them as to the manner in which they did their work, why introduce the present Bill? I believe the Minister has adopted the right attitude in introducing this measure. I believe its adoption will lead to a further development and expansion of tourism in this country for no matter how well the Irish Tourist Association, Fógra Fáilte, and An Bord Fáilte did their work— and they did their work remarkably well—there is no doubt that there must have been overlapping from time to time, tending to interfere with the efficiency of the work of either body, when the three bodies were pulling even in the same direction. There is no reason in the world in this matter why you should not have one body as the Minister intends through this Bill to carry out that very important service.

I am sure that in his selection of the board of directors the Minister will be exceptionally careful as to the class of people he appoints because on their work will depend the efficiency or otherwise of the new body. Suggestions have been made as to the necessity for improved hotel accommodation, improved transport and various other matters that affect tourism. It is only by having people on the board to direct these services—people who are in touch and experienced in such matters—that you can have the degree of perfection that we all hope will flow from this Bill.

If I have any adverse criticism to level at any of those bodies that are now being merged, it is that in so far as the publicity carried out by the Irish Tourist Association is concerned, my own native county, Mayo, came in for very poor attention. I quite admit that an amount of propaganda has been published referring to the unrivalled beauties of Achill but there are other beauty spots in the County Mayo—places of historical and archaelogical interest that certainly should not be forgotten by anybody interested in the development of tourism.

I trust that in the body that is now being set up, when this Bill becomes law, County Mayo will receive at least fair and equitable attention in the matter of publicity.

Mr. McCrea

As a small hotelier and director of the Irish Tourist Association for a great number of years, I rise to support wholeheartedly this Bill. I do so, not because it gives an opportunity to review the whole field of tourism in this country, but because it removes in my opinion an eyesore, a road block and an obstruction in abolishing Fógra Fáilte which never served any useful purpose. It never was intended to serve any useful purpose. In the other House the foster parent almost disowned his own Bill.

An effort was made by Senators Sheehy Skeffington and ffrench-O'Carroll to impress us with the value of this work from the point of view of publicity. I say, as one with experience and who has been on the Tourist Association for a long time, that it was that body with a limited amount of funds that established bureaux, distributed literature, issued monthly travel books and which put Ireland on the map not only in Britain but on the Continent and in America. I think it must be remembered that the Irish Tourist Association was there before Fógra Fáilte was ever heard of and even before the Tourist Board. It was responsible for drawing the attention of the Irish Government to the value of tourism in so far as our economy is concerned. So much for the board.

A lot was said about the value of sign-posting. I think the value of sign-posting cannot be stressed too strongly. Last summer 12 months, I myself had the experience of going home from Dublin one evening and being held up by two hikers, a woman and her daughter—they were Australians—between Ashford and Rathnew. They asked me to direct them to Glendalough. I asked them in what direction they were travelling. They said they were coming from Kilmacanogue. They were as far from Rathnew as they were from Glendalough. I took them in my car and left them within a few miles of Glendalough. Some friends of mine went to Rome during the Holy Year. I spoke to them when they came back and asked them if they had any difficulty getting across. They told me it was easier to travel from Calais to Rome than from Enniscorthy to Dublin. The sign-posting on the Continent was more on the hoarding system. They had not the slightest difficulty in the world. It is most important to my mind that there should be proper sign-posting.

I mentioned this matter to the Wicklow County Council and the county has been pretty well served since. I have travelled a lot of this country myself and I find that in some counties you lose more time inquiring the way than you do in getting to your destination. That has been my experience.

Another thing that will play an important part in the development of tourism in this country is the provision of good roads. Most of our scenery is hidden and inaccessible. I heard that statement made over and over again by visitors attending the annual meeting of the Irish Tourist Association that, due to bad roads, most of our best scenery is hidden and inaccessible. We in Wicklow have been spending a good deal of money on the roads and opening up a lot of the beauty spots. We have been getting substantial grants but a lot remains still to be done. We are in advance of other counties, so far as our main roads in the county are concerned, and 30 per cent. of our other roads have been brought up to the standard of the main roads.

With regard to the Tóstal, I have a very open mind. I would say that in cities like Dublin, Cork and Waterford, functions and celebrations might be a great success. I myself believe that so far as the extension of the tourist season is concerned, it is madness to start Tóstal celebrations during April. Visitors to this country who have never been here before meet the Arctic conditions that one finds in April. It is quite possible that they will never be seen again. I would suggest that May would be early enough to think of starting celebrations of this kind.

Another important matter is that of hotel charges. I am in this business myself in a small way. I think the Minister is aware that we are not in a tourist centre, and for that reason our charges are reasonable. We have no difficulty, and even though we are not a tourist centre we have more bookings than we can cater for every year. I spoke to visitors who came to this country. Last season I remember a visitor mentioned in my own town that it was his fourteenth year in Ireland with his family. He told me the hoteliers were robbing the people. I do not know whether that is correct. I have experience of overcharging in Dublin to the tune of 39/- for two people. That would not have any great effect on me, and it would not keep me from going to Dublin, but I can just imagine what a tourist would say if charged 19/6 for two modest meals in Dublin. I want to say that I approve of the Bill and of the abolition of Fógra Fáilte because I do not believe there was any room for it in our tourist set-up.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Tá an oiread sin ráite ar an mBille seo nach mian liomsa aon chaint fhada a dhéanamh air, go mór mhór an taca seo den oíche. Chun na fírinne d'innsint níor mheasas go ndéanfaí tagairt do na rudaí go léir a bhí sa díospóireacht ó thosnaigh sé mar níl sa Bhille dáiríre ach an t-aon rud amháin is dóigh liom gur fiú tagairt a dhéanamh dó agus is é sin deireadh do chur le Fógra Fáilte, is é sin le rá, go dteastaíonn ón Aire stiúrú na tráchtchuartaíochta d'fhágaint faoin aon-Bhord amháin agus go mbeadh sé de chead ag an gComhlucht TráchtChuartaíochta a bhí ariamh ag tabhairt aire do thrácht-chuartaíocht na tíre seo, suíocháin a thabhairt dó-san ar an mBord. Rinne an Seanadóir Ó Cógáin tagairt dó sin agus dúirt go mbeadh sé níos fearr dá gcuirfí sa Bhille an méid suíochán a bheadh acu ar an mBord agus conas mar do toghfaí ar an mBord iad. Is dócha nach bhfuil ansin ach rud nach bhfuil aon mhór-thábhacht ag baint leis.

So much has been said on this measure, that I do not propose to dwell upon it at any length. Everybody, of course, realises the importance of tourism in this country. At the present time—and I use the words "at the present time" with special emphasis because there was a time indeed when certain politicians did not appear to realise that the tourist industry in this country was so important—it is gratifying to know that there is a new orientation of views on the matter. Of course, it is only natural that people who have the welfare of the country at heart would be anxious to see everything done to promote the tourist industry of this country because it appears that, from the point of view of our revenue, this industry is second only to the agricultural industry.

A figure of £30,000,000 has been given for the industry, which I suppose is more or less correct but, as my friend here said, the industry represents more than that because we must take into account the money spent by our own people here who spend their holidays at home. If proper facilities were not made available, they would most likely be tempted to spend their holidays abroad. The amount of money they spend on their holidays and the contribution they make towards the tourist industry of this country, would not be included in the £30,000,000, so that the figure I suppose is much greater.

I was glad to hear the Minister say that he was taking a special interest in this question of cross-Channel travel. Unfortunately, of course, we have not any real control over the traffic between this country and Britain, and I suppose all that the Minister can do is to take the matter up with British Railways and try to get them to improve the condition of travel between the two countries. I do not know to what extent he will succeed in this matter, but I would imagine that if he does not succeed with British Railways, the proper procedure would be to take the matter up at ministerial level in Britain with the Minister for Transport. I was just wondering, listening to the Minister and also when reading the report of the debate that took place in Dáil Éireann, will the time ever come when we shall have complete control of the situation by the establishment of a cross-Channel service of our own.

I do not know how much that would cost. I know very well that it would cost a hefty sum, but probably the thing will have to be tackled some time. We remember, before Irish Shipping Limited was started, when we preached a policy of having a mercantile marine service of our own, we were called dreamers, but now everybody must admit that the dream has to a great extent come to realisation. We have now to a certain extent a mercantile service of our own and I hope the time will soon come, when we will have a cross-Channel service of our own, over which we will have complete control and in connection with which we can establish our own rules and regulations so that we will not have to make representations to anybody about it.

So much has been said about the proposed unification of control over the tourist traffic industry here that I do not propose to deal with it further than to say that, like other Senators who have spoken, I am a bit sceptical as to whether the results the Minister has envisaged from the proposed unification will be achieved. I was very surprised to hear that there was lack of harmony between An Bord Fáilte and Fógra Fáilte because I imagine that the members of both boards had a sense of responsibility. They were both established to fulfil their own purposes.

The purpose of the establishment of Fógra Fáilte, provision for which was made in the Tourist Traffic Act of 1952, was to pay special attention to the publicity end of tourism, and it was thought at the time that it would be desirable that the duties of Fógra Fáilte would not impinge on the duties of An Bord Fáilte, that they would both look after their own respective duties and that the cause of tourism would be better promoted as a result. The Minister, however, thinks that a unification of control is desirable. He says he has examined the position in detail, and if he has come to that conclusion, well and good. The only thing we can do is to wait and see. Time will tell whether the new arrangement will be better than the old, and I sincerely hope it will.

I did not expect that this debate would range over the wide field over which it has travelled since it started, because there is only one worthwhile provision in the Bill, that is, to get rid of Fógra Fáilte. I hope, as I say, that when we have got rid of it, the expected results will be achieved.

Mr. Meighan

I want to raise a point with regard to a complaint made to me as to the accommodation on the cross-Channel steamers. Some people from my area who returned from England within the last fortnight told me that they had to stand on the ship during the whole journey. I remember hearing the Minister say that he had taken this matter up with British Railways. I can well understand that sufficient accommodation might not be available in a rush season, at Christmas or Easter, but this took place within the past fortnight, and, if the Minister wishes, I can give him the names of the people involved, the steamer and the date. I understand that, while on board, they protested to the captain about it.

Mr. Bergin

I rise to welcome this Bill and to congratulate the Minister on the speed with which he tackled what was a pretty obvious defect in our tourist organisation. I think that even the general public were beginning to realise that there was not harmony and co-operation between the two bodies that were supposed to be helping in the tourist industry. I think the Bill is an admirable one and that very many benefits will flow from it.

I feel that the Minister, having taken this first step, might now consider the advisability of setting up a joint board with Northern Ireland, so that we could administer the bigger unit and have the benefit of that bigger administrative area. I do not see that there is any reason why we should not join with Northern Ireland with regard to tourism in the same way as we have joined with regard to electricity and transport. I think it would be all to the good. At the moment, all our advertising in countries other than our own carry the name of Ireland and we invite people to Ireland in all our advertising. The Northern Ireland Government invite them to Northern Ireland, so that we can have a situation in which a person in England is converted to the idea of coming to Ireland by our advertising, and, trying to make up his mind on what part he will come to, having the benefit of the advertising by the Northern Ireland people to encourage him. If we could set up a joint board it would help our tourist industry in the first place, and have many other ancillary advantages as well.

Apart from that, I want to ask the Minister if he will consider very carefully whether or not the emphasis is being put on the wrong place in relation to the tourist industry. From reading the material issued by the tourist organisations, it appears to me that we are endeavouring to bring to this country a section of people who are constantly diminishing; in other words, we are always appealing to what used to be known, and may still be known, as the huntin', shootin' and fishin' class. They are what we in this country refer to as the Ascendancy and, in Britain, that type of person is becoming increasingly scarce. We should base all our efforts on bringing into this country the wage-earning class of tourist from England, the British Dominions, France and other European countries.

To my mind, the big potential market is Britain where with extended and general holidays, with people enjoying reasonably good pay and with a holiday tradition, we can, I think, make our industry a pretty paying one on that market.

An experiment has proved successful along those lines in this country. One organisation—if you like, one business— succeeded in bringing 24,000 visitors, very largely from Britain last year, as tourists to this country. That organisation started off with all the disadvantages that we have as a nation regarding the tourist industry. In the County Meath, they have the disadvantage of climate. It is generally regarded as one of our main disadvantages. They had no scenic advantages at all, no prior publicity and nothing except what other places in the country have —a normally good beach or seaside place. Yet, they built up the biggest single catering unit in the country. It is now a very successful one. I think that if we examine the way they tackled their problem and if we tackle the national problem in the same way, we will be going about it in a realistic manner. This particular organisation to which I have referred, did not go in for the super hotels that we talk about when speaking on tourism. They provided good food for the visitors, suitable sleeping accommodation and the other amenities that one normally expects.

The thing that sold their scheme was advertising. I suggest that it is on advertising we have been falling down so far as this question of tourism is concerned. I do not know whether we can afford to go in for advertising in a really big way. If we cannot, we should go in for it in a select way. As the Minister pointed out in the Dáil, we have, for example, a great attraction in our fishing. When I speak of fishing I am not referring to salmon and trout fishing or to the class of people to whom I referred at the outset. I mean ordinary coarse fishing which we more or less despise in this country. In Britain there are millions of people who are organised in angling clubs for coarse fishing. I think that if we made a special appeal in our advertising to clubs such as these, we could bring about a very large increase in the number of our visitors. I have here an advertisement which appeared in the Angling Times—an English publication. It mentions Ireland as an angler's paradise, and asks its readers who are interested to write here for particulars of the fishing facilities available for tourists. I think it would be far better if we got in touch with the secretaries to these various clubs in Britain and gave them that information instead of leaving it to them to take the initiative. The important thing is that the emphasis on this matter must be changed from what used to be known as the wealthy people—those who, some years ago, were the only people who could take holidays—to the working-classes and wage earners, particularly in Britain. If we do that I am convinced that as a nation we can do as well as the private enterprise organisation which I have mentioned. As regards our publicity, I suggest that we should concentrate on the Irish clubs and in the big cities in Britain with large Irish populations. That is all I have to say except to again congratulate the Minister on introducing the Bill.

Mr. Norton

The debate on this Bill has ranged over a rather wide area. I shall do my best to cover most of the points which have been raised by those who participated in the debate. One question raised by a number of Senators was whether it would not have been desirable to allow two boards to function independently, as had been decided on a previous occasion, and there was called into question the wisdom of amalgamating the two boards. In order to avoid disputations and acrimony in this House, I shall not express my views as to the reasons which induced my predecessor to set up Fógra Fáilte. I think that, at this stage, when the board is going out of existence, one had better pull the curtain down on that whole event. Nothing that I have seen in the Department provides the remotest justification for the creation of two separate boards to deal with the problem of tourist traffic. If the two boards were pulling together, and in the same direction, clearly there would be no need for two boards. One would be sufficient. If they were not pulling together, but were pulling in opposite directions, clearly they should not be allowed to do so. I think that the most sensible approach to the whole problem is to get a unified board to take under its wing responsibility for the development of our tourist potentialities, with such assistance as the board can get, and no doubt will get, from the Irish Tourist Association.

My case for binding these two boards into one is that I am perfectly satisfied there was waste, overlapping and duplication by running these two separate boards. I am satisfied too, that the existence of the two boards led to a clash of personalities, and that unless this House, the Dáil and the general public were content to see money frittered away and, according to members of the board, wasted, then there was no alternative but to merge these two boards in the hope that, in that way, we will obviate waste and duplication, eliminate the lack of coordination and try to get together a board which will generate enthusiasm and co-operation in the task of developing our tourist possibilities to the fullest.

I saw the directors of An Board Fáilte and of Fógra Fáilte. I discussed this whole matter with them. I had previously told them what I had seen and what had been admitted—what was on the files in the Department. All that made it clear to me that the continued existence of these two boards was indefensible, and, in the interests of the creation of efficiency and the avoidance of wasteful expenditure, I felt that the amalgamation of these two boards was desirable and, in fact, urgent. I said to the boards that I proposed to promote legislation with that object in view, but in the meantime, in the hope that I could induce them to grow together, instead of growing apart, I asked them to meet jointly and to think with one mind about the dual problem of Irish tourism: the problem of the overall supervision of the tourist industry on the one hand, and the problem of publicising our attractions on the other hand.

I felt that these were complementary activities and that the board, if it were concerned with promoting our tourist development, could in my view meet jointly and, as a joint board, transact the joint business of both boards. One would imagine that was an easy job, to get the two boards to meet and to distil their collective wisdom for the benefit of the tourist industry. I found immense difficulty in getting the boards to meet. I confess now that I spent a good deal of time and wasted time in having to deal with a situation in which you could not get two State appointed boards to meet in the way that I wanted them. There was friction, misunderstanding and misconception. There were interpretations of rival functions, all of which convinced me, as I said earlier, that unless we were going to sit down and see money wasted there was no alternative but to introduce legislation to compel the amalgamation of the two boards. I am not alone in that belief. When the board came to see me they came with a resolution, after being told of my views and in the resolution they asked me to wind them up as two separate boards and establish one board for these two organisations. Having in the first instance been created as two separate authorities, they finally came to the conclusion that this was a mistake, that they were not getting the co-operation or the team spirit and that the whole thing was not working out as originally envisaged.

They expressed the hope that I would take steps to end that situation and to merge them in one body. One of the members who came to see me said the boards were unanimously of the opinion that the better organisation of the tourist industry required that there should be only one board on which the Irish Tourist Association would have representation. Another member said that the existence of two boards created overlapping of work to some extent and confusion in the public mind. It was not satisfactory to be associated with this confusion and he thought the practical solution was to create unity under one board.

Mr. Hawkins

Is the Minister reading now from a report of a meeting of the particular board? If so, I would like that that would be recorded.

Mr. Norton

I am reading from notes that were made about this, but if the Senator does not want me to give him this independent testimony of a note made from a meeting of the board, I do not need to quote from this. I have sufficient information in my own head to enable me to continue.

Mr. Hawkins

If the Minister wishes to quote from any recommendation that has been made, I would like that it be recorded on the records of this House. Has the Minister any objection to doing that?

Mr. Norton

I do not know whether it is desirable. There are some names mentioned in this document, which does not reflect creditably on certain persons and therefore I do not want to put it on the Table.

Mr. Hawkins

I do not want him to mention any particular person, but the members of the board are so few that I am sure Senators can associate them particularly with a question of this kind. The least we should expect from the Minister, if he is quoting from a recommendation made by the board, is that he should be prepared to allow it on the records of this House.

Mr. Norton

I am not quoting from any recommendation made by the board at all. What I am quoting from are notes at a discussion which I had with the board, with the boards of both organisations, and in which the members unanimously——

Mr. Hawkins

Wait a minute. We just cannot get away from this. The Minister has made a statement here that he is quoting from a recommendation made by certain members of the board.

Mr. Norton

I did not use the word "recommendation" at all. It is the Senator's own creation.

Mr. Hawkins

If that is so, we must have a record in this House of these statements. If the Minister is not prepared to do that, well—all right.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It may be of some assistance to the Minister to inform him that the procedure in this House is that when quotations are made from documents the references are given. Generally, if the document is not to be available to members of the House, the quotation is not proceeded with.

Mr. Norton

I shall not quote from the document. I shall give the same information from my own recollection of the discussion.

Mr. Hawkins

Wait a minute. I do not want to accept that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator must accept that.

Mr. Hawkins

We have here a statement made that members of a particular board made a recommendation to the Minister. That is a responsible statement. The Minister now proposes to quote these statements. If he proposes to quote them, he must be prepared to lay on the Table of the House some——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister has indicated that he is not continuing the quotation from documents.

Mr. Hawkins

All right. Then we can take it the statement the Minister is now proceeding to make is not a statement of fact.

Mr. McGuire

Surely that is a question for the Chair to rule on.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We must hear the Minister now.

Mr. Norton

I do not know why Senator Hawkins is so anxious that I should not give the House the facts.

Mr. Hawkins

No, no. As a matter of fact, my anxiety is that the Minister would give the House the facts.

Mr. Burke

Can you not hear him and judge him then?

Mr. Norton

If the Senator would be patient, he will get the facts.

Mr. Hawkins

We have rights in this House and as far as I am concerned I am going to exercise them. If the Minister has a proposal to make and suggests that certain statements were made by certain members of a board that he himself or his predecessor set up, we must have these things verified. If the Minister is not prepared to do that, if he suggests that he is going to avail of the rights of this House to enable him to go further than that—well, that is all right.

Mr. Norton

I was saying that I had told the House of the view or impression which I had formed from what I had seen, what I had read and what I had heard about the manner in which these two boards function. I came positively to the conclusion that they were not functioning satisfactorily but rather wastefully as two independent organisations. I told them that I proposed to promote legislation to amalgamate them and I asked them to meet jointly in the meantime in the hope that they would grow together— or, rather, not grow any more apart than they had done. Having indicated that these were my views, I subsequently met both boards and the members of these boards told me that they were not satisfied that two independent bodies were necessary.

Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll

Would the Minister mind answering a question on that point? Would the Minister mind telling us whether the two boards suggested they should be wound up, before or after he asked them to try to work together as one board?

Mr. Norton

I told them, after examining the situation in detail, that I was convinced there was no case for their continuance in two separate bodies and that I was proposing to introduce legislation for merging them into one. I asked the boards to meet jointly in the meantime so that the two organisations would be welded together and when the necessary legislation went through both Houses of the Oireachtas the whole thing could slip into gear with the minimum of dislocation. I wanted to get them to meet jointly for that purpose. I had immense difficulty in getting them to meet jointly, in getting them to co-ordinate at the outset. I expressed to them my intense disappointment at their reluctance to mesh together for the purpose of promoting the well-being of the industry.

When they came to see me then, they told me that the only way in which there could be efficiency was by welding both organisations together as a unified body. Members who came to see me said they did not like to be associated with the waste and overlapping which was then taking place and they called my attention to the fact that these two organisations had not a horizontal kind of structure but a vertical kind of structure, that they had separate premises, separate secretaries, separate chairmen, separate accountants and I think separate solicitors, separate motor-cars and a whole variety of duplication of that kind which the members said was something they did not like and that they thought could be improved. Therefore, when I say I want to amalgamate these two bodies into one, I am saying only what the two boards themselves said to me because they recognised the wastefulness and the inefficiency which went with the two organisations.

One of the organisations is responsible for publicity but, in arranging its publicity, it is supposed to take note of the tourist policy of the other organisations. Even on that they could not get agreement because the body responsible for publicity felt it should go its own way in publicity and that there was no obligation even to talk to the other body as to what the policy should be in the publicity programme on which they were about to embark. A whole lot of other difficulties of that kind arose from time to time but there is no purpose in dwelling on them at this stage.

There is no question whatever in my mind and in the mind of the members of the board that a single board is the best; that a single board has proved to be necessary; that a single board will eliminate overlapping, duplication, a clash of personalities and the frictions which have been a characteristic of the existence of the two boards. It is with that object in view that this Bill was introduced. When the Bill is passed into law, a unified board will be created, and I hope a unified board will recognise that the Irish people, who are providing money for the unified board, are entitled to get 20/- value for every £ they give to the board, that the board will be expected to eliminate anything that can be regarded as wasteful or as leading to duplication, and that the element of friction will be supplanted by a warm co-operation on the part of all those who are charged with the responsibility of promoting the tourist industry.

The question of the Tóstal was raised in the course of this debate. I thought I had cleared up completely any earlier misconceptions as to my attitude or the attitude of the Government in respect to the Tóstal. As the House knows, we had two Tóstals, but they were only authorised to continue year after year. We had one in 1954 and one in 1953. My interest in the matter and my desire to give the Tóstal a fair chance of succeeding is evidenced by the fact that, in 1954, when I was called upon to decide whether the Tóstal should stop or go on, I said that it should go on and, unlike my predecessor, I said it should go on for two years. My predecessor only allowed it to go on from year to year. In my case, I decided it should go on for two years as a minimum so that it could plan ahead, especially with international events where long planning is essential. If the board this year would show that their efforts are likely to spell out greater success in the future, I would be prepared to say they could now plan for a longer period ahead in the hope that it would facilitate planning and, because of the capital expenditure which might be involved in certain directions, reduce the annual cost of the Tóstal as a whole.

I think the alterations in the dates for holding the Tóstals have been made on a realistic basis. Everybody in Ireland knows what the Irish climate is like. It was a mistake to hold these Tóstals too early. I mentioned that fact to the Tóstal Committee and they themselves said they recognised that it was probably a mistake to have the Tóstals in 1953 and 1954 so early. I told them I was thinking of May. They said they were thinking of May too. Finally, I approved the date which was suggested, that is, the last three weeks in May. I hope that by holding the Tóstal at that time of the year we will get more visitors than would be likely to come if we had weather such as we have had in the recent past.

I agree with those who said that in setting out to try and popularise a new feature such as the Tóstal you cannot expect an instantaneous success; that you cannot expect miracles, especially having regard to the fact that we have to try to attract tourists away from their own country to come here at times of the year when our people do not leave here to go to other countries. Very few of our people would dream of leaving this country to go on holidays in March or even in the month of April. I think it was a bit unrealistic to imagine that people would leave other countries to come here merely because we announced we had the Tóstal. I think, therefore, fixing the Tóstal period in May is tying it in with the general holiday period but is sufficiently in advance of the holiday period to be of benefit to the hotels and to the country generally at a time of the year when there is a certain leanness from the point of view of visiting tourists. I think, therefore, that we must be patient with the Tóstal. We must give it a chance of succeeding. I am prepared to give it that chance and every possible help. My aim would be to give the Tóstal every possible chance of succeeding.

I think there are a lot of advantages in making the Tóstal a success. Even the partial success which has been achieved so far has, I think, been worth while in beaming the efforts of our people on an aspect of our national life in respect of which there is scope for very substantial improvement. A successful Tóstal can promote functions which will be uplifting, elevating and a source of edification to our own people and to tourists as well.

But there is another aspect of the Tóstal which I think is important and to which I think Senator Sheehy Skeffington referred in particular, and that is the kind of national spring-cleaning which takes place in connection with the Tóstal. Anybody passing through our towns or even through our cities and villages will note that there are many aspects of our life which could do with some furbishing. There is the old ruin which is usually a dump for tin cans, old bicycles, bedsteads and everything else on the main roads where they can be seen by tourists.

There is the case of the untidy houses. There is the case of overgrown hedges and briars that you see from time to time going through villages and along the countryside, slightly out from the towns and villages. If the Tóstal could only induce us to devote more time for a few weeks of the year to a national spring-cleaning of the country, I think if would justify itself alone. I hope, if this debate gets publicity, that that aspect of the value of the Tóstal will be emphasised so as to ensure that for 1955 we will get the best and most comprehensive clean-up of any of these imperfections which could do with a little manual attention and some manual decoration as well.

Hotels were referred to in the course of this debate. Different views were expressed. I think the function of endeavouring to improve our hotel accommodation, improve the amenities of hotels, improve the services provided by the hotels, is a function which quite properly was entrusted to An Bord Fáilte. I think the board deserves every commendation for anything which it has been able to do in that field. Our hotels are an important feature in the scheme of tourist development. It is impossible to imagine that you can attract tourists unless you have good hotels for them, unless the charges are reasonable, unless they get good food, good service and clean and attractive accommodation. While I would like to pay tribute to many hotels which have tried to modernise their services and to improve their amenities and standards of food, it is still true that there are a number of hotels which have failed to participate in the tourist development campaign by improving their accommodation, services and facilities. I think we should say from this House and through the medium of all political Parties and every organisation of public opinion, that these hotels are expected in their own and in the national interest to make a general effort to improve their standards so that they too can offer to the tourists the facilities that they expect—to say to them, in effect, that they will find their efforts in that direction will be a worthwhile investment for themselves. The development of hotels is an essential feature of our tourist development programme and I hope that, through the medium of our tourist organisation and of public opinion, we should be able to persuade these backward hotels to remedy imperfections in their organisation.

The question of signposting was raised by a number of Senators. I would say that this year the tourist organisation will continue its efforts to complete the erection of signposts in those areas where signposts are still required. A substantial sum was spent in the provision of signposts this year and the tourist organisation in the next financial year will be given a sum of money which it is hoped will enable it to complete the erection of signposts in all areas throughout the country where these signposts are needed. I hope, therefore, that at the end of 12 months or at the latest 18 months, we shall have signposting work completed throughout the country which will obviate the possibility of Senators, Deputies or anybody else losing their way because of non-signposted roads.

The question of transport between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead has been raised by a number of Senators. I would like to repeat here what I have already stated in the Dáil. I am not in any way satisfied that our people are given even a reasonable service by the British Railways boats which ply between Dún Laoghaire and Holyhead. I have seen with my own eyes passengers crowded on the decks and the boat so loaded that the third class passengers were forced to stay in the open on wet nights. I do not think that that is a satisfactory service for our people or for the English people who come to Ireland on holidays. Nor do I think it satisfactory that anybody, Irish or English, should have to travel from Ireland in such conditions. I have had testimony from many people who witnessed with their own eyes the unsatisfactory travel conditions between Holyhead and Dún Laoghaire. I have had testimony from Deputies in the Dáil of what they personally witnessed and which prompted them to raise the matter of these transport facilities or lack of transport facilities with me.

Within the last six months, I have pressed British Railways to take immediate action on the matter of the Dún Laoghaire-Holyhead services. I have caused discussions to take place between representatives of British Railways and officers of my own Department. I have told British Railways that our people should not be expected to travel in such conditions, and I have told our officials to take up discussions with British Railways. I told our people to say to British Railways that we were not prepared to tolerate the service that was being given and which, we felt, was impacting to our serious disadvantage, particularly in respect of tourist traffic. I have now arranged for further discussions with British Railways in the matter.

Mr. Hawkins

I was wondering whether this matter should be discussed in public in this House. It is a matter I think which could better be discussed between the appropriate Ministers. I do not think that we are getting any place by having an open discussion on this occasion.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister is replying to questions put to him and he is in order. I call on the Minister to continue.

Mr. Norton

As you rightly say, Sir, I am replying to points raised by Senators on this Bill and to questions put to me by Senators asking what I was doing in the matter. I think it is right for the House to have this information and I think, in any case, the Irish travelling public are entitled to have it. I have complained to British Railways about the inadequacy of the services last year. They have informed me that this year they would improve the services, that there would be better sailings, more frequent sailings, and that they would introduce a scheme providing for cheaper mid-week fares in the hope of taking the pressure traffic off the week-ends. Further discussions with British Railways will again take place in the course of about a week. I hope that by then British Railways will see the wisdom of being reasonable in this matter and of providing suitable services for our people. If this does not produce results, I think in defence of our own people and of the public who have to travel between Holyhead and Dún Laoghaire and in the opposite direction whether Irish or English, we shall have to take the matter up with the British Minister for Transport and ask him to direct his attention to the question of improving this vital service between our two countries. I think Senators can feel assured that the matter is under active consideration at the moment and that every possible effort will be made to ensure that there will be a substantial improvement in the travel facilities during this summer.

I have also been dealing with the matter of travel from Dún Laoghaire to Westland Row. I do not think it meets the case merely to have better facilities between Holyhead and Dún Laoghaire, unless we can improve the facilities between Dún Laoghaire and Westland Row. I believe that the carriages which were provided on this service were most appalling and I have told C.I.E. that they must make substantial improvements by putting on modern type carriages. I have asked in that respect that there should be a progress report from C.I.E. every month, to see what they are doing in providing these carriages which I have asked should be put into service this year. I am glad to tell the House that the last progress report I saw indicated that they had now got 15 new carriages out of the 20 which they propose to use on the Dún Laoghaire-Westland Row line for the purpose of catering for the tourist traffic this summer. I hope we have now seen the last of these carriages which have for so long caused dismay to tourists and dismay plus shame to our own people who saw tourists being conveyed in them.

Mr. Burke

Would the Minister ask them to do the same thing for the other ports?

Professor Stanford

Would the Minister ask the National Museum to provide accommodation for the carriages which are being left off?

Mr. Norton

I doubt if they are worth that.

Mr. Burke

The other ports are important.

Mr. Norton

If the Senator will let me have his views on that, I will see that they are considered by C.I.E.

The question of the Irish Tourist Association and its relationship with the new board was raised by a number of Senators. I have nothing but the greatest admiration for the Irish Tourist Association and for the pioneering work it undertook in days when the light of publicity and, if you like, of popularity, was not burning as brightly on tourism as it is to-day. I think the association did an excellent job under intense difficulties. Not only did they help to light the candle that led us along the road to developing the potentialities of the tourist industry, but, against cold and chilly criticism, they kept that flame alight down through the years.

It is true that with the establishment of statutory bodies dealing with tourism, they possibly lost their position on the centre of the tourist stage, and, of course, it is quite natural that they should feel some resentment at being pushed into the wings. Far from bearing ill-will towards the Irish Tourist Association, I bear nothing but the kindliest affections for its early and sustained efforts, and it was in pursuance of that belief and affection that I decided I would associate it with the new board by providing it with representation on the board. What the representation will be, I cannot at this stage say, because one has to get the Bill through and have a look at what interests should be represented and where the best people can be got; but very definitely the Irish Tourist Association will be tied into the new organisation through representation on the board of that organisation.

Let me say here that I think this representation of the Irish Tourist Association on the new board is much more valuable than the representation it had on Fógra Fáilte. With Fógra Fáilte, it only shared in the responsibility for the publication and circulation of literature. In the new Tourist Board, the Irish Tourist Association representation will be such as to enable it to concern itself not merely with the publication and dissemination of literature, but with the whole tourist policy as well, and the association is now getting, by representation on this board, the right to participate in an over-all way in the general direction of our tourist policy from every angle.

I think that improves the status of the Irish Tourist Association. I think it gives them responsibility in a field in which they had no responsibility before. Let me say—and I say it in no facetious way—that when the Irish Tourist Association sought representation previously on An Bord Fáilte, my predecessor took the view: "No; you were never in that field before and there is no reason why you should go into it now. You will confine yourself to the Fógra Fáilte side, the publicity side." Here they are getting a better status, a wider responsibility, and I hope that it will not only be for the good of tourism but will create a new and wider interest in the work of the Irish Tourist Association itself on the part of those who are members of it and those who subscribe to it.

Senator Dowdall mentioned in the course of her speech that she was concerned about whether the Irish Tourist Association representative or representatives on the board could discuss the board's business with the Irish Tourist Association executive. I think that was the question she raised and I think we have to look at it from this angle, that anybody who is a member of the board of the new tourist organisation is responsible to the board and has a common loyalty to his colleagues; in other words, he has to pull as a member of a team with his colleagues and he cannot be controlled and told to do things by any organisation outside. I feel that would be fatal. For instance, if I were to put a representative of the railways on the board and he had to do whatever the railway directors told him; if I were to put somebody on it from the shipping interests who had to do what they told him; or if I put somebody on from the Irish Tourist Association who had to do what the Irish Tourist Association directors told him, we should have a situation which would lead to chaos.

I think we must firmly plant on the shoulders of the seven directors the responsibility for making a success of tourism and that we must insist that they work as a team and play for their own team and not for teams far away. But I would see nothing wrong with the Irish Tourist Association, which presumably knows what it wants to do in the field of tourism, feeling that it has the right approach to the problem, indoctrinating, if you like, their representative on the board with their views and saying: "Our view is that this problem should be tackled in a particular way" or: "This problem is urgent and something should be done in connection with it." I would see no objection to the Irish Tourist Association representative, having had talks with the Irish Tourist Association in which they would inform him of what they wanted done or of things they wanted attended to, going back to the board and saying: "I met representatives of the Irish Tourist Association and they put to me certain considerations and I bring them to you. Let us see what we do about them." That would be a reasonable relationship between the Irish Tourist Association representative and the executive of the Irish Tourist Association itself, but it would be a mistake and would not make for administrative efficiency if the Irish Tourist Association member of the Tourist Board had, of necessity, to do everything he was told to do by the Irish Tourist Association executive, and had no discretion and no power to exercise an independent view on problems put to him. As I said, the main aim of the Bill is to get together a united tourist board and to staff the directors in such a way that we can eliminate friction and the causes of friction and get a board which will work unitedly for the benefit of the tourist industry.

Two other matters were raised to which I have made no reference, one of them being the name of the board. I still think there was a usefulness in calling the board An Bord Fáilte, with its English equivalent, so that it might be known abroad what exactly the functions of the board were; but in the Dáil a discussion arose as to whether it was wise to abandon the exclusive description of the board by its Irish title and it was suggested that perhaps the inclusion of the word "Éireann" in the name of the board would sufficiently identify its association with this country. As I did not feel very strongly on the matter, I took the view that that possibly met the situation. In any case, I was reinforced in my view by a device adopted by the board itself, because I notice that, in the case of An Bord Fáilte, it set out on its notehead that it was formerly the Irish Tourist Board. Consequently nobody was in any doubt as to what exactly An Bord Fáilte meant or in what field it was working. I notice that in the case of Fógra Fáilte they use the Irish title, but at the end of the notepaper they say that, in English, "Fógra Fáilte" is "The National Tourist Publicity Commission in Ireland." Therefore I think that in all the circumstances the new name probably met the different and conflicting points of view.

Questions relating to the transport of cars by air and by sea are matters which are under discussion with the various interests concerned. I hope that when the discussions have concluded it may be possible to record progress in both fields at a reasonably early date.

I thank the Seanad for the impartial way in which this Bill has been examined and for the constructive suggestions which were made by the various Senators.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 15th March.

Professor Hayes

I should say that the Dáil has agreed to finish the Vote on Account to-morrow and that, therefore, this House must meet on Tuesday next to take the Central Fund Bill. Whether this Bill—the Tourist Traffic Bill—can also be taken on that day is a question which will have to be settled in the interval.

The Seanad adjourned at 9.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Thursday, 10th March, 1955.