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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jul 1955

Vol. 45 No. 4

Workmen's Compensation (Amendment) Bill, 1954—Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 7, inclusive, put and agreed to.
SECTION 8.

Mr. Douglas

I move amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (1), to delete "and" in line 7, and to insert "and that he will be unable to undertake any alternative occupation" in line 8, before "may".

It is not my intention to press the amendment, but I should like, in view of what the Minister suggested last night, to ask him to give some clarification to the interpretation which he places on the meaning of "total incapacity". Yesterday when speaking on the Bill I gave an example of a bus driver who, in an accident, was blinded and, therefore, became totally incapacitated as far as his normal occupation was concerned. This man subsequently might be able to take up an occupation as a telephonist or some other such job normally taken up by blind people. Another such case was brought to my attention this morning and I shall cite it. It was an English case of a bank clerk who was a very good amateur footballer and who eventually gave up his bank job and became a professional footballer.

Two or three years later this man broke an ankle. For some reason or another the ankle did not set properly and it was decided that he was permanently lame. The British courts held that he was totally disabled and he got compensation accordingly. He had no difficulty about going back to his bank which was as good from the point of view of remuneration as his job as a professional footballer. I gathered from the Minister last night that total incapacity in this Bill meant to him a person who was totally incapacitated and who would in fact not be able to take up any other occupation. All I want is some clarification as to the Minister's interpretation of the term and to see that if a person is totally incapacitated and is, in the strict sense, not capable of earning any money in future, that person would rightly and properly receive just compensation.

I am afraid that if Senator Douglas forces this amendment to a vote in this House I shall be compelled to vote against it for the simple reason that the Bill provides that a person incapacitated as a result of an injury in his work will receive not greater than 75 per cent. of his former earned income or four-fifths of his weekly income. We have already decided in the Schedule to this Bill the figures of compensation that should be arrived at. Therefore, where an application is made to the court by the worker to have his weekly allowances made into a lump sum, these allowances are only 75 per cent. of his weekly income and the purpose of this amendment, to my mind, is to enable him to engage in some other activity, to invest that money, to utilise the moneys he might receive as a result of the agreement, to earn for him the moneys he might have earned if he was in complete employment.

I would like the Senator and the House to understand that there is no section in this Bill that provides for an insured worker total remuneration as regards his employment. Where there is an agreement made, or a court decision arrived at, you are going to give to that worker 75 per cent. of the income he could or would earn in a particular period. If we were prepared to accept Senator Douglas's amendment we would deprive that particular person of investing or immediately utilising these moneys to provide for himself and his family.

I am sure that this point of view coming from me sounds extraordinary to some of the speakers who spoke last night and particularly Senator Murphy. I drew the attention of the Minister and the House to this particular section and asked the Minister a very pertinent question to which I have not got a satisfactory answer. Section 8 provides that the worker—I am entirely in agreement that the worker should have this right—after two years should have a right to make an appeal to the court. We provided here in this Bill a guidance for the person presiding over that court. We told him that he must take into consideration whether the person is over 21 years or not and if so, we set out in the Schedule to the Bill what the allowance or the grant that he might make should be in relation to the insurance per £ per year.

I would like to direct the attention of Senator Murphy and those other people who are so interested in the welfare of the workers to the wording of this particular section. There is only one decision we ask the presiding justice to decide on and that is whether it is in the best interest of the worker that this lump sum should be made available. I am agreed that in many circumstances it would be much better for the worker that the weekly allowance should be continued, that the worker may not be a person who, if a particular sum of money was placed at his disposal, would make the best use of it for himself, his wife and his family. In those circumstances it would be much better that he would be assured of a weekly income. That is one of only two decisions that this section asks the justice to decide on. Having decided in all fairness to the victim, the person who has met with this accident and who is not in a position to continue in his normal employment, that it is in the best interests of that particular worker that he should get this lump sum rather than a continuance of the weekly payment, the justice must then, in accordance with this section, take into consideration the question as to whether the payment of that lump sum would create a hardship on the former employer of the worker.

I put a question to the Minister here yesterday and I was accused by Senator Murphy of not being sympathetic to the workers. If I have at any time to go to a worker for a recommendation as to whether I am sympathetic or not to their point of view, I am certainly not going to go to an employee of a trade union organisation. I have in the time I have been a member of this House—and it is since the House was first established—the honour of being elected on the Labour panel and had probably, on the first occasion I was on that panel, no less a person elected on that particular panel than the now Minister for Education, and that is something to which one might have some regard.

Apart from that, I resent very much the accusations that were made here yesterday in my absence by Senator Murphy. I am one of the very few persons in this House who can produce here and now a fully paid up membership card of a trade union organisation of which I am very proud to have been a member from the first day I was accepted as such. I think that comes very badly from one of those people. Perhaps when Senator Murphy looks over the remarks he made yesterday in a cooler and calmer atmosphere than prevailed here he may repent some of them. I think one of the things we should avoid here is blowing our own trumpet, more or less. I could if I wished be rather harsh on this question.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

On the amendment to the section.

Torn between two loves, one must make a decision. Those who know me here know that, when a decision has to be made, I am always prepared to make it on the side of misunderstanding, if you like. Senator Murphy — I do not hold this against him — is an ambitious young man. We should appreciate ambition in young men because the nation will be built on those who are ambitious and who are prepared to get places. Some of us have been practically born into trade unionism and served our time in trade union organisations. Those who have been associated in one way or another with the trade with which I have been associated have given something to the nation; indeed, they have given something to the world; and it ill becomes Senator Murphy to be critical. I am prepared to put Senator Murphy to the test to-night as to whether or not he is really interested in the welfare of trade union organisation in this country.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill."

On the section, we have listened to a long speech, not on this particular amendment or this particular section, but rather on some alleged attack I made on Senator Hawkins yesterday afternoon. Might I say, whilst I am apparently destined to cross swords very frequently with Senator Hawkins, I have every respect for him personally? I am not aware of making any personal attack on him yesterday afternoon. I shall read the report of the debate with great interest when it becomes available and, if I have made a personal attack on Senator Hawkins, of which I am not in the least aware, I shall apologise to him.

In view of the deletion of Section 11 of the Bill, might I refer the House to column 657 of Volume 151 of the Official Report of the Dáil? I would like to find out from the Minister if the figures which he gave then will be altered in consequence of the deletion of Section 11. The Minister stated:—

"Deputies spoke about the possibility of 100 per cent. in the rate of premiums. I shall be a little bit more conservative and put the increase at about 80 per cent...."

At column 658 he said:—

"I think employers themselves ought to be concerned about the treatment meted out to them by insurance companies. The insurance companies have indicated to me that in respect of the increase from £2 10s. per week to £4 10s. per week and also in the case of fatal accidents, and in relation to other minor changes, the increase will be in the region of 23 per cent. In relation to Section 8 and Section 11 they have suggested an increase of 49 per cent. on the existing rates."

Have the insurance companies now indicated to the Minister that in consequence of Section 8 and the deletion of Section 11 that figure of 49 per cent. will be considerably reduced?

Might I take this opportunity of allaying some of the fears that have been expressed by Senator Douglas? Senator Douglas is apparently afraid, as I must say I was when I had the task of having this section framed, that an insured workman might obtain an award on the plea that he was totally and permanently incapacitated. I have been advised that the section, as now drafted, guards against that and total and permanent incapacity is related to the capacity of a workman to earn not alone in the occupation in which he was injured but in any other occupation. I am perfectly satisfied that the net, so to speak, is spread very wide and the court will have to be satisfied, before an award is made, that the workman will never be in a position to earn in any occupation whatever. In any case, before he can make any application his incapacity will have to last at least two years and no workman will hang on for two years having gambled, so to speak, in the courts on the possibility of his getting an award.

Senator Douglas also quoted a case in Great Britain. It is difficult for me to make any comment on that. I think the Industrial Diseases Act in Britain was passed round about 1948; but, if the case to which Senator Douglas referred was one which happened prior to 1948, he might have a case. Under the present Act, as administered in Great Britain, total disability can mean the loss of both hands, the loss of a hand or a foot, before a workman will be deemed to be totally disabled and entitled to compensation on that basis. But, in this particular section, it is abundantly clear, and must be to the courts, that total permanent incapacity is related to his capacity to earn in his former occupation or any other occupation.

I certainly appreciate the concern of Senator Hawkins in this particular section and I think he will agree with me, after reading the section, that it certainly does safeguard the rights of the workman and also gives certain discretion to the courts to award a lump sum in certain cases or to withhold it in others—in very few, I hope. But, in my opinion, contrary to the fears that have been expressed by some employers and some insurance companies, workers will find it much more attractive now to remain on the allowance of £4 10s. per week rather than to have the weekly allowance redeemed. That is my opinion. I have nothing to substantiate that but I imagine that, if I were a worker of a certain age, I would prefer to remain on the £4 10s. per week rather than seek redemption in the courts.

Senator Walsh asked about the cost. I suggest that with the amendments now, that is, the deletion of Section 11 and the deletion, so to speak, of half of Section 8, in our estimation, the increased cost will be about 25 per cent. of the existing premiums, because subsection (3) included a provision for redemption in non-permanent cases and the estimate given included an estimate for both permanent and non-permanent, total and partial cases.

I should like also to say this, that that is merely an estimate and can only be an estimate, not only as far as I and my officials are concerned, but as far as the insurance companies are concerned, because it is only after this particular Bill has been in operation for some time that they will be able to prepare an accurate estimate. As far as I can gather at the present time, the increase will be in the region of 25 per cent. on the existing premiums.

This is a very important section. The Minister has attempted to give us an explanation, which I am not prepared to accept. The purpose of this amendment is to give to the worker a right. We want to be clear about what we are doing. We are providing that the worker should receive a weekly allowance of four-fifths of his wage.

75 per cent.

When it comes to a question of funding the weekly allowance, the court cannot make an allowance other than what is provided in the Bill. What is the purpose of funding that sum? To my mind the purpose is quite clear, to put the worker in the position to provide for himself and his family the weekly income that he would be in a position to provide had the accident not occurred. The courts will not care very much what the Minister or I say on this Bill but the Minister has stated very emphatically here to-night that the purpose of the section is not to put the worker in whose case the allowance is redeemed in a more favourable position than the worker who continues to draw the weekly allowance. The weekly allowance will be only 75 per cent. of his total earning capacity had he not been injured.

My argument was that the amendment that Senator Douglas put down would be unfair to the worker. Having heard the Minister on this particular section, if the section is to be operated in the manner described by the Minister to-night, it would be equally unjust to the worker. If the worker is not able to continue in his employment, the Bill provides an opportunity, in this particular section, to gain access to a lump sum that might enable the worker to, say, open up a shop or some other source of income. If that is not the case, then the purpose of this whole section falls very flat and, from what I can gather from the Minister's statement, it does not hold out any hope and if the case goes to court and somebody quotes the statement made by the Minister here to-night—although quotations are not Acts of Parliament —it may be taken into consideration by the court.

To my mind, in justice to the worker, the decision should be on the basis that the lump sum is in recognition of the fact that the worker has been deprived of the opportunity of engaging in a particular form of employment and that it opens up to him another avenue of employment. Here we are only providing 75 per cent. of his earned income at a particular date and the purpose of this amendment is to enable him to get a lump sum which he can invest to provide 100 per cent. of his income.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There is no amendment before the House. The amendment has been withdrawn.

We must take the section as we have it now. We cannot do anything with it at this stage.

We can. We can do a lot about it yet. The opportunities for this House to consider and discuss this particular Bill are not yet exhausted, if any member of the House feels that there is something to be discussed, and I feel that there is something in this particular section to which we should pay particular attention, if the Minister's statement will be taken as a direction to a justice who will make a decision.

May I interrupt the Senator at this stage to ask him to what statement he is referring? What did I say that gives him fears?

It is rather long history and I think it would be better if we did not go over it now. If the Minister and those people who support him, particularly Senator Murphy and those other people who speak more eloquently for trade union organisation in this country than I do, are satisfied that the best interests of the workers are safeguarded in this particular section you can take it from me that I am satisfied. However, I avail of this opportunity to point out to the House that there is something in this section that the Minister would be well advised between this and to-morrow, when probably we shall be discussing the Final Stage of this Bill, to look into and have more definite information before us.

If it will ease the Senator's mind, I am prepared now to give him whatever information he wants.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 9 put and agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill."

This section proposes to override a provision that was in the 1953 Act. This is a very important matter. It is one of these things that must and will hit at our whole social legislation. We have unemployment insurance, national health insurance, children's allowances and other social welfare benefits but in each and every one of these we have a provision whereby the unemployed man, if he is a married man with a family, receives special consideration. If he is insured under national health insurance and if he is struck by illness he receives an allowance for himself, his wife and his children. The former Minister for Social Welfare introduced what to my mind was a very welcome step in this code of social welfare, that is, a provision whereby a married man received 50/- for himself, 12/- on behalf of his wife and 14/- for one or two children. I think we should give encouragement to that section of our people who are placed in the responsible position of bringing up families in this country. We have given consideration to that in the various Acts I have referred to but now we are going further because we propose to provide more money for other persons too.

The argument advanced by the Minister does not, as one might say if one were a Yank, hold water. It discourages the employer to employ married men. I am going to put one question to the Minister and I am sure he should be in a position to answer it. On that question must hinge my case. In this country we have a number of insurance companies. The great majority of them cover workmen's compensation. Can the Minister name one company to-night or mention one case in which it was suggested to an employer, because of the fact that he employed a married man with a family, that they proposed to increase their premium under the workmen's compensation insurance scheme? Has that happened in any one particular case? Since 1953, when this provision was first brought in by the then Minister, not one insurance company in this country has asked that question of its clientele. There is not one employer in the country who—because a man has been married and has a family of over two persons—has said to that person: "I feel compelled, because of the increased burden that is being placed on me under the Workmen's Compensation Act, to dispose of your services."

I think that, last night, it was very effectively pointed out that the majority of our employers in this country are anxious to employ married persons because of their sense of responsibility, because of their appreciation of their employment at the present time and because of all the relevant circumstances. In my view, we in this House should give very serious consideration to the matter before we take the step the Minister asks us to take. What, in fact, is that step? Do we realise what that step is? In this Bill, the Minister proposes to raise the weekly contribution for persons who have been injured in their employment from 50/- to 90/- per week with an overriding provision that 90/- is the maximum, that they cannot receive anything over that amount and that it is in relation to their earned weekly income.

Take, for example, two persons, one of whom is a single man. When we pass this Bill and when the President signs it, thus making it an Act of Parliament, that single man who has no encumbrance and who has no responsibility, if he is injured in the course of his employment—whether the injury be permanent or merely for the time being does not enter into the question now—is being put into a different position: we are making available to him an additional £2 per week over the sum he is now entitled to receive. It should be borne in mind that this £4 10s. per week is not £4 10s. to every person who meets with an injury, but the maximum sum which any person may receive, whether or not he was in receipt of £12 or £14 a week previously. What we are doing—and we are doing it with our eyes open and in the complete knowledge of what we are doing—is increasing the weekly amount to a single man, with no encumbrances, from 50/- to the maximum of 90/- per week.

Look then at the other man who has succeeded in getting a house from a local authority—and that requires something. He is bringing up a family and has the responsibility of keeping himself and his family of five or six children. He is now entitled to receive 76/- per week, because under the 1953 Act it is provided that he shall receive 50/- for himself, 12/- for his wife and 14/ for one or two children. We are giving the married man an increase of 14/- per week, whereas we are providing—not out of central funds, because not one halfpenny of it will come out of central funds, but out of industry and insurance—that the single man will benefit by £2 per week, whereas we are providing that the married man with a family of three or four children will benefit by at most 14/- per week.

This is not the approach we make in our social welfare legislation. In all other social legislation passed here, we have made provision for supplementary grants in the case of a married man, but in this case we are providing that a single man will gain £2 per week, while the married man will benefit only to the extent of 14/-. I put down this amendment in the hope that we would get back to the position laid down in the 1953 Act and I am asking the House to do nothing very revolutionary. All I am asking the House to do is to continue the provision made in the 1953 Act.

The Minister in very slipshod fashion has suggested that this will react unfavourably on the married man and I have asked the question as to whether he can produce any case of an employer saying to a married man: "I recognise that you are a good worker and I have complete confidence in your ability to do what I want you to do, but the fact that you are a married man prevents me giving you this employment". If the Minister can produce any evidence of an insurance company in this State having increased the premium payable by an employer because he has employed married people in preference to single people, I am prepared to agree that there is something in the Minister's suggestion, but he cannot do so, because it has never been suggested by any company. Why a Minister who is a member of the Labour Party should put this proposal before us is something I cannot understand, and why he should broadcast the suggestion, as he has done on two occasions to my knowledge, to the employers of this country that they should be more careful in the selection of their employees, I fail to see. This proposal would have more effect on that particular category of people than on any other.

Let us turn to what has been provided and to the inducements being held out to our people across the water.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

A discussion of that kind would not be relevant on this section.

I acknowledge that; I think it would not be relevant and probably it would not be good to engage on it. I will conclude on this, that if the Minister holds firmly to the view that because there was subsidisation for the married man in the 1953 Act and that that acted unfavourably to the single man who may have had the responsibility of an aged mother or sister, I would direct the Minister's attention to the provision made in the Act across the water which provides for any dependent of the particular worker. We on this side of the House will give the Minister every opportunity of amending the Bill before us to cater for that type of person. I know very many of them myself. Every member of this House knows workers who probably have to fend for their sister or mother or some other member of the family and who are probably in the same position as the married man. We are prepared to make provision for a position of that kind.

I would put very forcibly to Senators —and particularly to those who presume to represent Labour here—that this is an opportunity to show they are interested in the welfare of the persons who count in this country, the married man with a family, and that they are not prepared to deprive those married men, with families and two or three children, of this benefit—that is what we are doing—and give it to the single person who meets with an accident in the course of his employment. We are giving him an increase of £2 and we are giving the married man with a family of six or seven an increase of 14/-. If the House agrees that that is the best we can do, I am quite satisfied.

I am sure Senator Hawkins believes everything he says in respect of these allowances. I pointed out yesterday—and, I would say, not in any slipshod way—that what I wanted to do in this particular Bill was to continue the principle embodied in the Workmen's Compensation Code since it was established in 1897. The basis of that code was to compensate injured workmen for loss of earnings. There was no reference at all to whether a man was married or single or had any children or not.

I did not care for the change made in 1953, because I thought we were departing from a long established code. All the arguments that Senator Hawkins has used to-night—I do not take exception to many of them—can well be used, and should be used if needs be, at the commission which I announced previously, to be set up to examine the whole code of workmen's compensation. In Britain at the present time they have not in operation the same code as we have. They have what is described as the Industrial Diseases Act, which makes provision for dependents, but that is a nationalised scheme. The commission that is being established now and that will operate here in the next few months will examine that particular question very carefully, I am sure, and will make a recommendation as to whether or not the existing code should be continued with some improvements or whether we should change over to a nationalised form of compensation to an injured workman.

My intention in this Bill was not to deprive the married man and his dependents of any money, but on the contrary to do as I have done, to give him an increase. That increase is not to the same degree in this particular Bill as the increase that is given to a single person but, after all, the man who is married will get now an increase of 28/- a week, the married man with one child will get an increase of 21/- a week and the married man with two children will get an increase of 14/- a week. I have been twitted here and in the other House by some of our opponents, if I may so describe them, that we were being too generous and being generous because we were spending other people's money. It is hard enough to listen to anyone saying we are not going far enough. The complaint all the time has been that we are going too far in this particular Bill. Possibly Senator Hawkins wants to travel further than I am going; I am glad to have him as an ally and I hope to use him in the near future.

In any case, I was not prepared to accept this amendment, not because I disagreed with it 100 per cent. but because I think the basis of the code should be preserved and that basis is compensation for loss of earnings; and because I believe the arguments so ably put forward by Senator Hawkins should be, and I hope will be, put forward at this commission which is to examine the whole code of workmen's compensation.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 11 agreed to.
First and Second Schedules and Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now.
Bill received for final consideration and passed.
The Seanad adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 21st July, 1955.
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