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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 1955

Vol. 45 No. 9

Statutory Instruments (Amendment) Bill, 1955—Committee and Final Stages.

SECTION 1.

Mr. Douglas

I move amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (1) (a), line 16, after "Ireland" to insert "the library of Trinity College, Dublin, the library of University College, Dublin".

I put the amendment because, as most Senators know, Trinity College, Dublin, is one of the libraries in the two islands which are entitled to receive copies of all publications, and it appears to me that if Trinity College is excluded from this Bill, it might be prevented from obtaining copies of statutory instruments. I feel satisfied that that was not the intention of the Bill.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Might I ask if the Seanad would be agreeable to take amendments Nos. 1 and 2 together?

I think so, Sir.

Mr. Douglas

I think it is desirable that the statutory instruments should be available to students not only in Trinity College, but in the other three colleges in the country. I am fully in favour of the amendment by Senator Crosbie and I hope it will be accepted.

I should like to support what Senator Douglas has said. Our students in University College, Dublin, particularly law students, would find this provision very useful and I would like these instruments to be available to them at the earliest possible moment.

I should like to support this amendment. Even though Trinity College is entitled to receive these under the Copyright Act, there is a good deal of delay under the Copyright Act. If they could have them directly under this Bill, it would enable students of law in Trinity College to be au fait with these matters sooner.

Reference was made to the delay from time to time in laying these statutory instruments before the House by having them placed on the Table or in the Library. The Statutory Instruments Committee have on many occasions had to complain to many Departments about the delay — sometimes extending up to six weeks and two months. It does not appear definite whether or not it is necessary under this Bill that the statutory instruments should be sent out at the same time to the Oireachtas as they are sent out to the different colleges set out in the amendments. The Minister will agree that it is particularly desirable that the House should be informed in the very first instance of these Orders. As the delay has occurred so often in the past, I hope that this Bill will prevent any further complaint in that respect in the future.

As one of those members who mentioned the case of Cork and Galway on the Second Reading, I should like to support the suggestion made by Senator Douglas and Senator Crosbie. I would also support the case made by Senator Walsh. If we are making these Orders available to outside bodies, we should certainly ensure that they are made available to the members of this House.

So far as the amendment itself is concerned, when I was framing this Bill, I frankly did not think that statutory instruments as such were things in which there was sufficient academic interest for students in the universities to require them. Statutory instruments are, by and large, documents in which there would be no academic interest whatsoever. There might be an occasional case in which there would be academic interest. I think it would be undesirable from the point of view of the university libraries themselves that we should fill them with copies of instruments for which they would have no real use.

If there is felt a real desire in the university libraries to get copies, I am certainly not going to prevent them; but I would say to the university representatives and to the mover of this motion that I am inclined to think I would be putting a burden on the librarians in expecting them to go through each individual statutory instrument they get. The various librarians may decide that only 1 per cent. of the instruments sent to them would be of real utility and suitable for retention. If the university representatives so desire, I am perfectly prepared to arrange that the instruments would be sent on demand administratively—or as the Seanad should desire, though administratively would be the easier way. I accept Senator Douglas's view as a necessary concomitant that if it is done for one college, it must be done for all four. I feel that an administrative arrangement by which the librarian would get, in any case in which he wanted it, a copy of any statutory instrument, would save a great deal of unnecessary paper work and yet the facilities would work out satisfactorily.

In regard to the point raised by Senator Walsh and supported by Senator Hawkins, one of the reasons for this Bill is to ensure that there will not be the delay in the future that there was in the past. It is to obviate that delay that I have provided this new method in the Bill. I hope the new method will mean not merely that the copies of the instruments will be available more quickly to the various bodies named but also that they will be available far more quickly in the Library of the two Houses of the Oireachtas.

I should like to support the Minister. I find after about four years I have a quarter of a room stocked with statutory instruments that I am afraid to discard. Would it be possible to arrange that the libraries receive copies if they apply? Librarians who know the amount of space and exposure facilities available could see the material and take as long as they needed to examine it and they would know which ones they would need.

I am supporting this amendment because I was expressly asked by the head of the Law School in Trinity College to support it, or to put down an amendment. It was our considered opinion that it would be valuable to students of law and others to have the statutory instruments immediately available in the college library. It would be open to the librarian to put them away in the dungeons after the lapse of some years and I do not think the question of storage would be a very serious one.

The Senator appreciates that law students have them already available in the two law libraries attached to the different colleges?

Students of the Faculty of Arts who are taking a law degree in Trinity College may not be members of those law libraries.

Surely the case made by the Minister might be acceptable if it were made in 1939, when the knowledge that there was going to be an outbreak of war necessitated the issuing of quite a number of Orders? Now that we have entered into a period of peace, and hope we may remain in it—whether it is cold or hot—and that there will be fewer of these Orders, the Minister is not justified in asking the librarians of the various colleges to make a special request for the various Orders issued.

Might I make this suggestion to the House? If we put it in the Bill it is there until the legislation is changed. I am quite prepared to agree to circulate copies of these Orders administratively, in the same way as if it were in the Bill, to the various librarians in the four colleges for a year and then let the librarians see at the end of the year whether that arrangement has been of use to them or not. If it has been of use, we can continue it: if not, we can drop it. If we put it in the Bill, we cannot drop it.

Mr. Douglas

I am perfectly satisfied with the Minister's offer.

I think it is a most satisfactory suggestion and we might accept it.

Amendments, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 3 not moved.
Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Agreed to take remaining stages now.
Bill received for final consideration and passed.
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