Skip to main content
Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Apr 1956

Vol. 45 No. 19

Opticians Bill, 1955—Report and Final Stages.

Government amendment No. 1:—
In page 10, Section 26, lines 1 and 2, to delete "conditions that, on the establishment day, he was a citizen of Ireland and" and substitute "condition".

The purpose of this amendment and of the three following amendments, which really all arise from the same intention, is to meet the point which was made, I think, by Senator Cox on Committee Stage with reference to Section 26. Senator Cox argued that the inclusion of the condition that a person must be a citizen of Ireland, in addition to having a specified experience entitling him to registration, might operate to debar from registration a person who had been providing a satisfactory service before the Bill came into operation.

As I indicated on Committee Stage, I was swayed by the argument made by Senator Cox and I undertook to meet the point on Report Stage. The purpose of amendment No. 1 is, therefore, to exclude the wording in sub-section (2) which provides as a condition that the person must be a citizen of Ireland and to substitute therefor that his principal means of livelihood during the qualifying period must be that of carrying on the business of an ophthalmic optician within the State. I take it, Sir, that the amendments may be taken together?

The Minister can argue all of them, the same principle being involved.

The purpose of the second amendment is to apply the same intention to sub-section (3) and again in the third amendment to provide also in Section 35 that the only condition shall be the condition with regard to carrying on during the qualifying period the business of a dispensing optician and in sub-section (4) of the same section amendment No. 4 applies the same intention to the existing sub-section.

Amendment agreed to.
The following Government amendments were also agreed to:—
2. In page 10, Section 26, lines 10 and 11, to delete "conditions that, on the establishment day, he was a citizen of Ireland and" and substitute "condition".
3. In page 12, Section 35, lines 22 and 23, to delete "conditions that, on the establishment day, he was a citizen of Ireland and" and substitute "condition".
4. In page 12, Section 35, lines 30 and 31, to delete "conditions that, on the establishment day, he was a citizen of Ireland and" and substitute "condition".

I move amendment No. 5:—

In page 15, Section 48, to delete sub-section (3).

I moved this amendment on Committee Stage and withdrew it, hoping the Minister might be able to see his way to look into some modification of that section. I do not want to go over the ground that was covered before. However, I have looked further into the position since and I feel that, whereas orthoptics is carried out under special supervision at present, under the Bill as envisaged it is not going to be under medical specialist supervision and is only very vaguely going to be under the supervision of the general practitioner. I was wondering if the Minister would still consider leaving this question to a vote.

On Committee Stage, the Minister said he was quite prepared to leave the matter to a decision of the House. Perhaps I might ask the Minister if he would still be prepared to let the amendment go on that basis. I feel that quite a number of Senators share the same view as myself.

This is how I feel about this matter. I undertook to the House, after the full discussion we had on the Committee Stage, to consider very carefully whether and in what way Section 48 could be amended to meet the views expressed by certain Senators. On this issue between myself and Senator ffrench O'Carroll and other Senators who raised the question of whether ophthalmic opticians should be entitled to engage in orthoptic treatment, I do not think there should be any compromise.

I made it clear that, so far as I was concerned, since the inclusion of this part of the Bill was a Committee amendment of mine in the Dáil, after due consideration I could not alter my view on it. On the Committee Stage I advanced the reasons why I felt it was proper and fair, in the interests of the public, that this treatment should be carried on. However, I was concerned about the point made by certain Senators that the wording of the last few lines of sub-section (3) might, though not intended, work an abuse inasmuch as advertising might take place. The exclusion in sub-section (3), in relation to the representations which an ophthalmic optician might make, includes any representation that he was capable of or did carry on orthoptic treatment. The purpose of that particular saving was to take orthoptic treatment out of the general prohibition already contained in the Bill on various representations which an optician might make. Having considered the matter carefully, I thought the best way of meeting the points raised in this House was by an amendment to Section 52.

In the next amendment, Senators will notice that I propose to include, if the House agrees, in Section 52 a particular prohibition on advertising which will include advertising of orthoptic treatment. In other words, the board itself may, under Section 52, in addition to a control of any advertising with regard to the prescription of spectacles by a registered optician, also include the control of advertising in relation to orthoptics by a registered optician. I think that represents a very genuine attempt to meet the views expressed by certain Senators with regard to the danger of representations, almost amounting to advertising, by ophthalmic opticians in relation to orthoptics.

I fear I must insist that the liberty to engage in orthoptics should be available to ophthalmic opticians, because, in fact, it represents the present position. The liberty is carefully circumscribed by the provisions in the Bill. It can only be exercised on the written direction of a registered medical practitioner who certifies he has examined the patient and directs a particular treatment. I think, on the main issue, the provisions in the Bill are fair and reasonable, and the later amendment to prevent advertising is an effort to meet the views expressed by Senators on the subsidiary question with regard to making representations in relation to orthoptics.

I think some of us would be easier in our minds if the last two lines of the sub-section were deleted, that is, "or from suggesting that he has provided or is capable of providing as aforesaid." It seems to me that, if that means anything at all, it means that nothing is going to prevent him from advertising. Now we are going to stop him from advertising later on. Is this not an internal contradiction in the Bill? I do not see what we gain by retaining these last two lines "or from suggesting that he has provided or is capable of providing as aforesaid". Surely we can stop at the end of the line above that. I do not see why the ophthalmic optician can be told he can suggest when, a little later on, we tell him he must not suggest. I think there is an internal contradiction there.

May I put an example, which is generally the best way of getting a point of view across? The Senator, whether or not he agrees with it, concedes the necessity for permitting an ophthalmic optician, in accordance with the conditions laid down in sub-section (3), to engage in orthoptic treatment. Accordingly, a medical practitioner who has examined the patient concerned sends him down to an ophthalmic optician to get the treatment laid down in the written direction. The first thing the patient asks when he goes to the ophthalmic optician is: "Will you give me the orthoptic treatment the doctor says I must get?" If the last line is left out, the ophthalmic optician must be silent, as otherwise he commits an offence. If he says "yes", then he is suggesting he is capable of providing the treatment which he is entitled to provide. That is a reduction ad absurdum and I do not think it is a thing to be desired. Accordingly, I feel that the main concern of Senators is to prevent the kind of unethical advertising which is largely aimed at under Section 52 and to give to the board control of any advertising in relation to orthoptics. To remove the last two lines of sub-section (3) would, in effect, stultify the power contained in the earlier lines to ophthalmic opticians to engage in orthoptics.

Dr. ffrench O'Carroll rose.

I would remind the Senator that this is the Report Stage, but I will not prevent him from making a brief comment now.

I appreciate that, but I thought I might make a short comment as the Minister spoke a second time. I wanted to say that I am sorry the Minister has not been able to alter that section, because I feel that we are taking a retrograde step, certainly in so far as this aspect of his work is concerned. The amendment he has put forward will help in regard to the publicity side of it, but still leaves a very undesirable position with regard to orthoptics.

Would the Minister consider a further compromise, by omitting the words "or is capable of"? It would then read that he was not prevented from saying he had done it. There is a good deal of force in the objection, because one does not generally see in an Act that you permit something to be done, nor does one generally consider it necessary to add that you may say that you can do what the Act permits you to do. The very fact that these lines come in does seem to be rather strange, and almost to suggest that the person concerned is invited to put himself forward. The Minister's amendment to the later section does make it clear that, subject to proper control under the regulations that are made, such a person could advertise. Why bring it in here again in this way? I would suggest that if you leave out "or is capable of," you would be meeting the advertising complaint, but would still leave it open to that person to say: "I have given that treatment."

I am loth to get into this argument, but surely we are deciding in Section 48 that an ophthalmic optician may give orthoptic treatment and certificate to a person sent to him by a registered medical practitioner. If we are allowing that, surely, we must allow the ophthalmic optician to say not only that he has provided such treatment, but to hold himself out as a person who is capable of providing such treatment, because in the Bill we are providing that he is capable of it. The objection taken, as I understand it, on the last occasion to the final words of sub-section (3) of Section 48, that they permitted advertising of an undesirable kind, is met by the Minister's amendment to Section 52, which means that advertisements of orthoptic treatment will be controlled by the board. That may be left to the board, and if it is, why should we take any steps about the last lines of sub-section (3)?

Senator Cox's suggestion that we should allow a man to say that he has given a certain kind of treatment but should not allow him to say that he is capable of giving the treatment which he has in fact already given would give you very extraordinary legislation. Surely the whole thing hangs together and is practicable and desirable, namely that a medical practitioner must send a person to an ophthalmic optician, and the ophthalmic optician will be allowed to carry out the treatment, but will only be allowed to advertise under rules drawn up by the board. That surely meets the objection.

Is the amendment being pressed?

I do not want to delay the House unduly, and I withdraw the amendment, but I would like to be recorded as personally dissenting from that section.

I am afraid the section has already been passed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Government amendment No. 6:—
In page 17, Section 52, to insert "or the provision of orthoptic treatment" before "by" in line 5 and before "by" in line 25.

I have explained the reasons for this amendment to the House. I take it that it is acceptable.

Amendment agreed to.
Bill received for final consideration.

Since the amendments that have been put in are, in the main, amendments to meet points made on the Committee Stage, I take it that there is no objection to having the Final Stage now. If there is an objection, it would not be taken.

No objection.

Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.
Top
Share