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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1956

Vol. 46 No. 1

An Bille Airi agus Runaithe (Leasú), 1956—An Dara Céim.

Tairgeadh an cheist: "Go léifear an Bille an Dara Uair."

Ní fheadar an bhféadfaimis leanúint go dti 10.30 p.m. chun déileáil leis an mBille seo? I wonder if the House would agree to meet until 10.30 p.m., if necessary, to take the Second Stage of this Bill. It may not be necessary.

Agreed.

Nuair a pléadh ceist na Gaeltachta i Mí na Samhna seo caite dúras go raibh sé beartaithe ag an Rialtas Bille do thabhairt isteach chun Aireacht do chur ar bun. Sid é an Bille. Ní bheadh gá leis an mBille in aon chor, marach go bhfuil ceantracha ann ina bhfuil an Ghaeilge ina gnáththeanga labhartha ag na daoine agus go bhfuil laghdú ag teacht ar lion na ndaoine sna ceantracha sin. Is cúram leis an Rialtas gach cabhair a thabhairt dóibh agus gach dícheall a dhéanamh chun go leanfaidh an teanga mar ghnáth-urlabhra imeasc na ndaoine a labhrann í fé láthair agus go neartófar an teanga sna ceantracha ina bhfuil lagú tar éis teacht uirthi cheana féin.

Chífidh Seanadóirí gur Góras atá san mBille seo chun dul i mbun na hoibre. Beidh cumhacht ag an Aireacht Ordú a dhéanamh á rá gurab í an Ghaeltacht limistéirí áirithe.

Tá a fhios againn fé láthair go bhféadfaí Ordú a dhéanamh anois gur Gaeltacht iad na limistéirí sin ach caithfear meastachán ceart a dhéanamh i dtreo go leathanófar cumhacht na hAireachta ós cionn an oiread limistéirí agus is féidir ina bhfuil an Ghaeilge dhá labhairt. Tá cumhacht san mBille chun Ordú do chur amach ó am go ham i dtreo go mbeidh a fhios ag an Aireacht cá bhfuil an Ghaeltacht. Beidh a fhios againn go léir cá bhfuil an Ghaeltacht. Beidh a fhios againn leis cad na thaobh go dtugtar Gaeltacht uirthi.

Sé cúram a bhéas ar an Aireacht ná freastal ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta ar gach slí—i gcúrsaí oideachais, géilleagrach agus sóisialach. Sí an aidhm a bheidh in ár n-aigne ag déanamh na hoibre sin dúinn, cabhrú leis na daoine chun a mbeatha do bhaint amach ina gceantracha féin agus chun go leanfaidh siad ag labhairt a dteanga dúchais féin.

Tá cumhacht dhá thabhairt san mBille i dtreo go bhféadfar cuid d'obair na ranna eile a thabhairt d'Aireacht na Gaeltachta nuair is léir don Rialtas gur mar sin is fearr a déanfaí an obair. Ní dóigh liom go mbeidh mor-chuid de obair na Roinne Talmhaíochta nó na Roinne Tailte á tabhairt d'Aireacht na Gaeltachta. Sí an obair is féidir leis an Roinn seo a dhéanamh ná comh-cheangal a dhéanamh idir Roinn na Gaeltachta agus na Ranna eile, comhairle do cheapadh agus eolas a thabhairt dosna Ranna eile i dtreo gur fearr a raghaidh obair na Ranna sin chun tairbhe do mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

The Bill implements the statement I made in November last that the Government intended setting up a Ministry to deal with matters affecting the Gaeltacht. The principal purpose of this Bill is to strengthen, economically, educationally and otherwise, the people living in those districts where Irish is still the natural language of the people.

In 1926, an examination was made in connection with the Gaeltacht. Recommendations were made and the area of the Gaeltacht was delineated in certain ways. It was divided into the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and the Breac-Ghaeltacht. Very considerable changes have taken place since, but there are substantial areas in Donegal, Galway, Mayo and parts of Munster where Irish is the natural language of the people. It is of immense importance —I think this view is subscribed to by all classes of people throughout the country—that our national language should be helped to maintain itself and remain the natural language of the people, and strengthen itself further particularly in those districts where it still exists among a fair section of the people, and to extend it gradually as a fairly common language for the people as a whole.

The purpose of this Bill is to maintain Irish as the spoken language, and for that purpose to assist the people both economically and educationally. The Ministry is more or less a coordinating framework at the moment. We know there are considerable areas of the country that could be described very definitely by Order forthwith as Gaeltacht areas for the purposes of this Bill, but then there is a thinning out in what was called the Breac-Ghaeltacht, where you might not, without more experience of the work of this Ministry, wish to extend the area unnecessarily.

It so happens that, when the census was held in the beginning of April, it was possible for us to arrange that over what was described in the 1926 Commission as the Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht an enumeration would be carried out which would give us, within the next few weeks, information according to district electoral divisions and subsequently, according to townlands, as to the number of households where Irish is the language of the household, or English only, or a mixture of both, the number of people over three years of age who speak only Irish, only English, or who speak both Irish and English; so that with the information we have with regard to the Irish speaking districts in a general way, strengthened by the position over a particular area where all the schools are treated as Irish speaking schools and most of the post offices are treated as Irish speaking post offices, we will have a census enumeration that will fill in the mapped picture for us as to where the strength of Irish speakers lies over that area which was marked Gaeltacht and Breac-Ghaeltacht in the 1926 census. It will be possible then, before very long, to have the Order contained under Section 2 of the Bill made out. When that is done, no doubt many areas will claim they are left out and that they ought to be in; but there is one way of coming under the Order and that is to be an Irish speaking district up to the standard which I think we will be able to define fairly clearly.

As far as the operation of the Bill is concerned, Senators will see that power is taken to transfer, if necessary, part of the work of any Ministry to the Gaeltacht Ministry, and there is the natural power to set up new services that are considered to be required under this Ministry. But the main function of the Ministry is that in regard to the economic, educational and other interests of the people involved, the Minister and the officials of this Department will deal with each separate Department connected in any way with the people of these districts, so that the various officials concerned will be able to afford to the fullest extent and in the most timely way the different types of State help that are generally available, on the one hand, or on the other hand that are available for special areas. It will be possible also to see that the administrative work of this Department and whatever official contact there has to be with the people of those areas in the carrying out of that administrative will be done through the medium of Irish. In that way, these districts will feel that they have a Department of State ministering to them in their own language, thereby strengthening both their will to maintain the language and making it easier for them to do it, too.

A number of services exist at the present time especially nominated for the Gaeltacht. It had been proposed that some of these will be taken over forthwith, but, after full consideration of the matter, it was decided that any change can most systematically and most effectively take place when the machinery of the Ministry has been set up. However, these matters will be reviewed in the very early days of the setting up of the Ministry and such of these schemes as ought to be transferred to be directly administered by the Gaeltacht Ministry can be transferred.

When we last discussed this matter here, the question at issue was whether there should be a board or a Ministry. But I think that everybody will be satisfied that, to have the affairs of the Gaeltacht put under a Minister and to have the position that at Cabinet meetings of the Government there will be a Minister responsible for affairs in those Gaeltacht areas, will be a position of power and of importance that could not be replaced by any kind of body.

I would hope that, with the passage of this Bill within the next couple of weeks, the Ministry would be set up straight away, that it would not be very long before the first Order could be made defining the Gaeltacht, in its initial position, at any rate, for the purposes of this Act, and that we would have the summer months to get close down to the problem and to get the Ministry well under way.

Is fada sinn ag tnúth le beartas chun an Ghaeltacht do chur ar a bonnaibh ath-uair agus an Ghaoluinn fé mar a labhartar sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht í do choimeád á labhairt mar ghnáth-theanga na ndaoine i gcónaí sa limistéir sin. Dá bhrí sin, ba cheart dúinn go léir fáiltiú roimb an iarracht atá á déanamh sa Bhille seo. Ach ní cóir dúinn bheith sásta an teanga a choimeád beo sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht. Ba cheart gurb é an cuspóir staid na teangan do láidriú sa bhreac-Ghaeltacht agus a bheith ag tnúth leis an lá nuair a fhásfaidh an limistéir ar a dtabharfaimid an bhreac-Ghealtacht inniu air ina fíor-Ghaeltacht. Beartas mór sea é sin ach beartas sea é atá indéanta im thuairimse, le himeacht aimsire ach pé slí ina dtabharfar fé, tógfaidh sé tamall.

Ní fada ó bhí díospóireacht anseo sa Seanad againn ar cheist seo na Gaeltachta nuair a cuireadh tairiscint ós ár gcomhair gur cheart bord neamhspleách a chur ar bun chun freastal ar an nGaeltacht ach mura bhfuil dearmad orm dob é a bhí i gceist ag lucht molta an bhoird sin ná an fhíor-Ghaeltacht, agus bíodh is go raibh saghas claonadh agamsa don chuspóir a bhí ag lucht molta an bhoird, tar éis machnamh a dhéanamh ní mó ná leath-shásta a bhíos leis an scéim sin toisc gan an Ghaeltacht ar fad a bheith ar aigne aici.

Ina theanta sin bhíos in amhras ar cheart cúramaí na Gaeltachta agus an chaiteachais a ghabhfadh leo a bheith mar dhualgas ar aon dream daoine, dá fheabhas agus dá dhílseacht iad, ach ar dhuine a bheadh freagarthach don Rialtas agus don Dáil, ba chuma an Aire nó Rúnaí Parlaiminte an duine sin. Admháim, áfach, go mbeadh buntáistí ag Aire seachas Rúnaí Párlaiminte. An chéad bhuntáiste do bheadh níos mó údaráis aige chun dul ar aghaidh le pé scéimeanna a bheadh ar aigne aige, an dara buntáiste bheadh sé i láthair ag cruinnithe an Rialtais agus d'fhéadfadh sé cúrsaí na Gaeltachta a phlé le baill eile an Rialtais.

Anois sé mo thuairim gur cóir go mbeadh sé mar chuspóir ag an duine a bhéas mar Aire i bhfeighil obair na Gaeltachta, ní hamháin an saol geilleagrach d'fheabhsú ach féachaint chuige go mbeidh an saol sóisialach ar aon-dul nach mór le saol sóisialach na ndaoine a chónaíonn sa Ghalltacht. Sé an fáth a luaim an méid sin ná gur dóigh liom gurb é ceann de na nithe is cúis leis an imirce ón nGaeltacht chomh maith leis an saol bocht eacnamaíochta atá gan saol ceart sóisialach a bheith acu ag baile agus go dtéann siad go dtí na háiteanna inar dóigh leo go mbeadh a leithéid acu. Go deimhin is deacair é sin a thógaint ar aos óg na Gaeltachta.

Ní maith le héinne an t-uaigneas ná an t-easba chomluadair, is fearr an t-aighneas ná an t-uaigneas, adeirtear. I dteanta tionscail oiriúnacha a chur ar bun sa Ghaeltacht ní mór an saol do ghealadh dóibh agus déarfainn gurbh é sin ceann de na cúramaí a chaithfidh an tAire nua, pé hé féin, a thógaint air féin. B'fhéidir nár mhiste a bheith ag súil le cabhair ó na hoidí scoile sa Ghaeltacht chuige sin agus ón gcléir chomh maith. Nuair a bhíos ag caint cheana ar an gceist seo sa Seanad dheineas tagairt don rud so. Do luas scéim aibhléisiú na tuatha, á rá gur chóir an scéim seo do chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta ins gach áit ar saor-luach agus a thabhairt dóibh gan ró-mhoill. Ní fhéadfaimis bheith ag súil go bhféadfaidís na táillí céanna d'íoc is a íocann muintir na Gaeltachta. Ghealfadh sé sin an saol dóibh go deimhin.

B'fhéidir go gceisteofaí mé i dtaobh conas a cuirfí aibhléis ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta ar tháillí ísle, níos ísle ná d'fhéadfadh an Bord Aibhléise é do sholáthar dóibh. D'fhéadfaí é dhéanamh le cabhair ó chiste an Stáit. Is ionann san is a rá go gcaithfidh muintir na tíre ar fad bheith ullamh agus sásta teacht i gcabhair ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus sé mo thuairim nuair a míneofar an scéal do mhuintir na hÉireann uilig ná beidh aon chur ina choinnibh sin acu. Is fiú lucht na Gaeltachta níos mó ná san. Is mór is fiú an oidhreacht ársa atá acu, an teanga agus an cultúr a ghabhann léi. Mar adúras, ní dóigh liom go mbeidh aon doicheall ag lucht tuisceanach na tíre roimh scéim den tsaghas san. Tar éis an tsaoil ní bheadh á dhéanamh ach ag cur muintir na Gaeltachta ar aon-dul leis na daoine sa Ghaeltacht maidir le cuid de bhuntáistí an tsaoil agus ní mór linn dóibh é. Caitfidh muintir na tíre ar fad íbirt a dhéanamh fé nithe den tsórt sin ar son na Gaeltachta.

Scéim eile a mholas nuair a bhíomar ag gabháil don cheist seo cheana bhain sé le tionscal na hiascaireachta. Tá an iascaireacht fite le saol na Gaeltachta, bíodh is nár cuireadh riamh fó-roinn na hiascaireachta agus fó-roinn na Gaeltachta le chéile. Mholas go gcuirfí báid iascaigh ar fáil d'iascairí na Gaeltachta ar saor-luach chomh maith, ach talamh slán a dhéanamh de gurb í an Ghaeilge gnáth-theanga theaghlaigh agus gnótha ag foirne na mbád. Is mór an cur as d'iascairí bochta fé láthair an t-airgead síos a héilítear orthu i dtosach. Más foirne le Gaeilge atá i gceist anois ní ceart aon airgead síos d'éileamh orthu. Sé sin más í an Ghaeilge a ngnáththeanga. Bhí áthas arm a fháil amach ó ráiteas a heisíodh cúpla lá ó shoin go bhfuil glactha leis an scéim sin, agus is ró-chuma an de bharr mo mholta-sa nó de bharr molta duine éigin eile a glacadh leis an scéim is céim ar aghaidh é gan aon agó agus tá súil agam go leathnófar an scéim ar fuaid na Gaeltachta uilig. Ní hé amháin go mbeidh an tslí bheatha is dual ag na Gaeilgeoirí dúchais ach beidh iasc le cur ar an margadh in áiteanna ar imeall na Gaeltachta ná faightear breac fé láthair.

Maidir le fo-roinn na hiascaireachta níl fhios againn conas a bheidh an scéal feasta. An gcuirfear an fhó-roinn sin fé Aireacht na Gaeltachta feasta? Ba cheart go gcuirfí iascaireacht na mara go háirithe, mar is ar an iascaireacht sin is mó atá muintir na Gaeltachta ag brath, agus tionscal dúchasach acu é. Is tionscal é a thug saibhreas dóibh sna laetheanta atá imithe. Ba chóir go mbeadh sé mar bheartas ag an Aire nua an iascaireacht mhara a chur ar a bonnaibh i gceart arís sa Ghaeltacht agus chuige sin sé mo thuairim gur cheart an tionscal san a dheighilt ón Roinn Talmhaíochta agus a cheangal le hAireacht na Gaeltachta. Ní ag fáil lochta ar an Roinn Talmhaíochta atáim, ach amháin gur dóigh liom go bhfuil cúramaí a ndóthain ar an Roinn Talmhaíochta. Tá aon deacracht amháin sa scéal go bhfuil Rúnaí Párlaiminte i mbun fó-roinn na hiascaireachta i láthair na huaire fén Aire Talmhaíochta, ach ní mór le rá an deacracht san. Ar aon chuma, ba mhaith liom tuairim an Aire d'fháil ina thaobh san.

Dar ndóigh, tá ranna eile stáit ann go mbaineann ceist seo na Gaeltachta leo a bheag nó a mhór. An Roinn Oideachais, an Roinn Tailte agus Foraoiseachta, srl. Níl fhios agam conas a bheidh an scéal feasta tar éis an Aireacht nua seo a chur ar bun. An leanfar den nós a bhí ann cheana, coiste idir-ranna a bheith ann ar a mbeidh oifigigh as na Ranna Rialtais go léir go mbaineann an cheist leo? Dob í an Rúnaí Parlaiminte a bhí i mbun Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta a bhíodh mar chathaoirleach ar an gCoiste sin nuair a thagaidís le chéile. Má leantar an nós sin an é an tAire nua a bheidh mar Chathaoirleach ar an gCoiste idir-rannach san?

Ní fheicim fós conas d'fhéadfadh an tAire nua seo dul ar aghaidh le forbairt agus le tarrtháil na Gaeltachta gan cabhair d'fháil ó na ranna eile Rialtais. Foraoiseacht, cuir i gcás. Tuigtear gur maith an scéim í sin san nGaeltacht, más é cuspóir an Aire nua gan bheith i dtaobh leis an Roinn Tailte chun crainn a chur ag fás sa Ghaeltacht, cá bhfaighfear na teicneoirí? Ní mór teicneoirí a bheith ar an láthair nuair a beifear ag cur na gcrann agus an féidir teicneoirí le Gaeilge d'fháil a raghaidh i mbun na hoibre sa Ghaeltacht? Muran féidir, ná beadh sé i gceist gur mó díobháil ná maitheas a déanfaí dá mba theicneoirí gan Gaeilge a cuirfí isteach sa Ghaeltacht? Níl ansan ach sampla den iliomad deacrachtaí atá fite fuaite le bunúdh na hAireachta nua so.

Is dócha go bhfuil machnamh déanta ag an Aire ar na deacrachtaí seo ó céad-ceapadh an beartas nua so, is do raghainn i ndánaíocht a rá, dá mhéid é a mhachnamh, ná féadfadh sé a insint dúinn i láthair na huaire conas is féidir cuid de na deacrachtaí a bhaineann leis an gceist seo do shárú. Go deimhin ní á thógaint san ar an Aire atáim ná aon ní dá shórt. Rud eile, an té a chaillfeadh misneach mar gheall ar dheacrachtaí níorbh fhiú mórán é. Ba cheart dúinn gan bheith ag cur síos ar dheacrachtaí ró-mhór maidir le nithe den tsórt so. Is fearr dul ceann ar aghaidh leis an mbeartas agus tabhairt fé na fadhbanna san do réir mar a éireoid.

Ag cur an Bhille seo faoi bhráid na Dála do dhein an tAire tagairt don mheath a bhí tagaithe ar an nGaeltacht ó bhliain go bliain in ainneoin na n-iarrachtaí a deineadh leis na blianta chun teacht i gcabhair ar an nGaeltacht agus an oidhreacht uasal arsa atá inti a chaomhnadh. Más fíor go bhfuil an meath chomh mór is adeireann sé, agus is é mo thuairim ná fuil sé i bhfad ón gceart, is ábhar buartha é. Má tá líon na gcainteoirí Gaeilge sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht, fíor-thobar na teangan, ag dul i laghad do réir míle duine sa bhliain, ní ro-fhada go mbeidh deireadh léi mar Fhíor-Ghaeltacht. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh linn leis an iarracht atá á dhéanamh anois againn stop a chur leis an meath sin. Mura n-éiríonn, caillfimid an oidhreacht is mó atá againn, an Ghaeilge agus an cultúr a ghabhann léi, na rudaí a thuig na Sasanaigh go maith a bhí mar chomharthaí sóirt againn, comharthaí náisiúnachais.

Ag cur an Bhille seo i bhfeidhm nuair a bheidh sé ina Acht, is é mo thuairim gur ceart comhairlí paróiste a bhunú ins gach Gaeltacht d'fhonn go mbeidh liaison ceart idir an Roinn nua agus muintir na Gaeltachta. Tá daoine ann den tuairim gur sa Ghaeltacht féin ba cheart Aireacht na Gaeltachta a bheith. Is ar éigin a bheadh an rath air sin mar scéim mar caithfidh an tAire a bheidh i bhfeighil na Gaeltachta a bheith i gcomhairle go minic leis na hAirí eile agus, ina theannta sin, ba dheacair lóistín d'fháil in aon chuid den Ghaeltacht do na Stáit-Sheirbhísígh a bheidh ag obair faoin Aire. Ba léir, is dóigh liom, go mbeadh an tAire i gcomhairle leis an lucht ceannais ar na paróistí sa Ghaeltacht i dtaobh na scéimeanna a bheadh beartuithe acu ar leas na ndaoine. Cloisimid a lán cainte i dtaobh comhairlí paróiste a ceaptar a bheadh oiriúnach sa tír amuich faoi choistí talmhaíochta. Níl a fhios agam an mbeadh a leithéidí ag teastáil i ngnáth-shaol na ndaoine sa Ghalldacht ach bheidis tairbheach don nGaeltacht mar d'fhéadfadh baill na gcoistí a méar a chur ar na nithe a bheadh ag déanamh buartha do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus eolas a thabhairt d'Aire na Gaeltachta ina dtaobh. Is mar sin, díreach, a bheadh ar chumas an Aire a fháil amach cad a bheadh ag titim amach sa Ghaeltacht ó lá go lá.

I dteanta an mhéid áta ráite agam tá ceist feabhsuithe talún na Gaeltachta. Na daoine sin go bhfuil gabháltaisí beaga acu ba cheart, is dóigh liom, scéim éigin a bheith ann chun aol agus leasú a thabhairt dóibh ar phraghsanna ísle agus chuige sin déarfainn gur mhaith an rud é dá mbeadh stór comhluchta nó rud éigin mar sin in aice na Gaeltachta nó ina lár chun go mbeadh na hearraí sin le fáil acu chomh maith le húirlisí na feirme agus mar sin de. Ní ceart ná ní cóir go mbeadh ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta, na Fíor-Ghaeltachta go mór-mhór, dul isteach sa bhaile mhór agus iad féin a chur i ngreim siopadóra éigin a fhéadfadh an phinginn dheireanach a bhaint díobh. Rud tábhachtach is ea é sin, im thuairim agus iarraim ar an Aire machnamh a dhéanamh air.

Anois cad faoi oideachas sa Ghaeltacht: mholfainn go dtógfaí gairm-scoileanna sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht agus d'fhéadfaí buachaillí agus cailíní ón bhFíor-Ghaeltacht féin d'oiliúint chun bheith 'na dteagascóirí sna scoileanna sin. Bheadh na scoileanna sin ina n-ionaid chun cultúr na Gaeltachta do chaomhnadh agus do scaipeadh. D'fhéadfaí drámaíocht agus mar sin do chur ar siúl agus, i dteannta cultúr na Gaeltachta do chaomhnadh go hiomlán, ba mhaith an tarrac a bheadh sna cúrsaí sin do chuairteoirí a raghadh go dtí an Fhíor-Ghaeltacht chun feabhas a chur ar a gcuid Gaeilge. Go deimhin, bheadh costas mór ag baint leis an mbeartas sin, mar do caithfí gairm-scoile do thógaint ins gach Gaeltacht acu i dtosach agus níos mó ná ceann i gcuid de na Gaeltachtaí ina dhiaidh sin, ach ní mór dúinn bheith ullamh, sásta airgead a chaitheamh má theastaíonn uainn aon bheartas gur fiú trácht air a chur chun críche sa Ghaeltacht.

Tá an-chuid rudaí den tsórt sin ba mhaith liom a chur faoi bhráid an tSeanaid, ach b'fhéidir nach é seo an t-am chun é sin a dhéanamh go mion. Nuair atá an Bille seo á achtú againn nílimid, mar adéarfá, ach ag tógaint an tí. Nuair a bheidh an tigh tógtha againn féadfaimid a bheith ag cuimhneamh ina dhiaidh sin ar cad é an troscán a chuirfimid isteach ann, troscán a bheidh oiriúnach don tigh.

Tá súil le Dia agam go mbeidh dea-thoradh ar ár saothar. Tá deabhadh leis an saothar chun stop a chur leis an meath sa Ghaeltacht—stop a chur leis an imirce, an rud is mó a chuireann buairt is brón ar éinne go bhfuil suim aige sa cheist mhór thábhachtach seo. Le linn don Teachta Ó Loingsigh bheith 'na Rúnaí Párlaiminte i bhfeighil na Gaeltachta dhein sé obair mhaith. Do bhí mar chuspóir aige dul timpeall go dtí na háiteanna sa Ghaeltacht inar dhóigh leis a gheobhadh sé eolas i dtaobh cad a bhí ag déanamh buartha don mhuintir iontu. Níor tugadh aimsear a dhóthain dó chun na bearta crua do réiteach. Dhein sé taighde an-mhór agus bhí scéimeanna áirithe aige ach ní raibh caoi aige ar iad a chur chun críche sar a dtáinig an t-athrú Rialtais. Bhí beartaithe aige stáisiúin chun min éisc do dhéanamh rud a raghadh chun tairbhe na n-iascairí sa Ghaeltacht. Bhí ar aigne aige feabhas a chur ar na calaithe sa Ghaeltacht ar mhaithe leis na hiascairí. Tá súil agam go leanfar den nós san agus go raghfar chun cainte leis na daoine sa Ghaeltacht ionus go bhfaghfar amach cad iad na fadhbanna is túisce is ceart tabhairt fúthu. Is minic a gheobhfaí eolas air ó na daoine féin ná beadh le fáil ag an nduine a bheadh i bhfad uathu. Ar aon chuma, tá a fhios ag an Aire go bhfuil na páirtithe go léir sa Dáil agus sa tSeanad taobh thiar de ins an iarracht atá á dhéanamh anois aige agus guibhimíd go léir rath Dé ar an obair.

Tá bróon orm, ach níl mórán Gaeilge agam. Bhíos cuíosach mhaith ag an nGaeilge fadó, ach ós rud é nach mbíonn aon taithí agam anois, is deachair dom mé féin a chur in iúl go líofa.

I am afraid the time is gone when I could seize upon most of what was said in a speech in Irish, and far less make very much of a coherent speech myself in Irish. In my experience of this Seanad, I can think of three Senators who speak Irish by choice, and fluently. I may be forgetting one or two perhaps, but three, or even five, out of 60 seems to me to represent a true picture of the view of our parliamentarians towards the language. I do not know what the proportion in the Dáil would be—I am prepared to hear from the Minister that it would be higher—but I cannot help feeling that many of our politicians to-day feel that Irish is a good language to encourage other people to speak.

It is with such thoughts in mind that I come to consider this setting up of a Department of the Gaeltacht for the laudable purpose of promoting "the cultural, social and economic welfare" of the Gaeltacht. There is only one point in the text which I would criticise, and that, curiously enough, is in the Title. I think we have far too many Acts of the Oireachtas, the Titles of which are not self-explanatory. I feel if we were to take this Title out of the blue and say: What do you think this deals with: "Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 1956?" it would be difficult to get an accurate guess. I should like to see this called the "Ministers and Secretaries Amendment, Department of the Gaeltacht Bill, 1956," in order that at least on the Statute Book we should see clearly just what it is that is involved.

I speak on this subject with rather a divided mind because I have no doubt of the goodwill on the part of some, the good intentions which lie behind the framing of this measure and the ultimate implementation of it, but I cannot help feeling that this type of sectional legislation, legislation for a section of our country, may not be a good thing in itself, may not be defensible.

I think I am right in saying there is no other Department of State whose work applies only to one part of the Republic. I think you could make a case for a Ministry for Slum Clearance. I think it is one of the vital problems which beset our people in this capital city in particular. It is felt, nevertheless, that this problem can be dealt with by the Minister for Local Government aided by the various corporations and so on. It is also true to say that a great number of Departments already deal with the Gaeltacht; it is obvious that the Department of Education does so in many ways, both directly and indirectly, by subsidies, scholarships, various courses and so on. I am not quite sure—and I do not think the Minister has made it clear to us—whether these subsidiary functions, as it were, of the Department of Education are to be transferred to the Ministry for the Gaeltacht in the future, or whether all of the work of the Ministry for the Gaeltacht is to be new, initiating work. I should like, perhaps, the Minister for Education, who is well situated to comment upon that, to tell us whether he intends any of the functions of the Department of Education in relation to the Irish language to be transferred, either immediately or ultimately, to the new Department.

Other Departments—the Department of Lands, Fisheries, Industry and Commerce, the Land Commission and so on—all in one way or another have dealings with the Gaeltacht already. I do not know whether these will all be co-ordinated, or only some of them, and, if so, which, under the new Ministry. In other words, I have a doubt in my mind as to whether this is a sound way of tackling the problem, granted the goodwill and the good intention.

I feel, and here I know I am speaking about things controversial, that Irish "as a vernacular language", to use the phrase in sub-section (2) of Section 3, is fast disappearing by dilution. The quality of the Irish spoken is being diluted by an unsatisfactory ersatz substitute. I believe that Irish as a cultural heritage has been done harm, with the best intentions in the world, by the hope that it could ever again become a vernacular language for the whole country. Personally, I do not believe it can. I believe, furthermore, that as a cultural heritage it could be best preserved by encouraging those who really love the language, not by endeavouring to goad into a half-hearted learning of it and half-hearted observance of it, those who are not led to it by any inner enthusiasm.

I would say, furtherfore—perhaps the Minister agrees with me there, and I hope he does—that, if you really want to set about saving the language in the Gaeltacht, the basis must be economic. As long as for the poverty-stricken people of the Irish-speaking districts the key to increased money, increased economic security, is the English language, as long as they cannot get a decent living in their own homes, in their own area, it will be folly to imagine that you can save the language or save them for Ireland.

I think I am right in saying that it is from these very districts that emigration to-day is greatest, and that there are areas on the western seaboard where, not merely is Irish disappearing, but the people themselves are disappearing. That is the problem before us. Now, the word "economic" is contained in sub-section (2) of Section 3. It is part, at least, of the ministerial intention, but I believe that, unless that is tackled in a very firm and vigorous, well-planned way, any other attempt to save the language in the Gaeltacht is doomed, because it will fall before the economic forces. The drive in the Gaeltacht towards English, and towards countries where English is spoken, is primarily economic.

I do not want to strike too discouraging a note. I speak of what I believe to be true. It is quite obvious that a number of people will disagree with me, and do, but, if there is really an active intention on the part of the Government to do something to achieve something positive and good and well-organised by this new Gaeltacht Ministry, I would not feel inclined to oppose it. I resist any temptation to feel that this may turn out to be, for all the good intentions, merely a piece of window-dressing, a sort of loud way of proclaiming that we intend to do something, when, in fact, very little positive, tangible result may become evident.

I am inclined, therefore, to say that we ought at least to give this Bill a chance and to see what it is capable of producing. Nevertheless, some doubts, I think, must be expressed. I think I am right in saying that the Minister, shall I say, resisted, in the Dáil, any suggestion that the centre for the Ministry could be in the Gaeltacht. I find it hard to believe that a Ministry for the Gaeltacht is best centred in Dublin. I may be misinterpreting the Minister there. It may be his intention, or the intention of the Government, eventually to move the Department to Galway, or some such convenient place, but if that is not their intention, I am afraid I find it very hard to believe that a Department for the Gaeltacht could be best run from Dublin. It is all very well to define the area of the Gaeltacht, but I suggest that, unless a real, active step is taken by transferring this Ministry, at least, to the Gaeltacht, the definitions on paper will not add up to very much. It is all very well to say that the Department will be able to deal with the people of the Gaeltacht in Irish, to speak to them, to receive them and to write to them in Irish, and so on, but I fear that, if that writing and speaking is done from Dublin, the effect upon those people will be, not unnaturally, to arouse a certain amount of suspicion in their minds.

In other words, the Minister for the Gaeltacht, in order really to do something for the Gaeltacht, must be prepared to go to the Gaeltacht, to remain there, to live there, to have his centre there, to have his Department there, and really actively to be concerned with the day-to-day problems as they arise.

The next thing I want to say, I say without any intention of wounding the present Minister. I did put a query to the Minister for Finance in another connection as to whether, in relation to this particular Ministry, it was intended to appoint a young and active Minister to the post. I now understand the present Minister for Education intends temporarily to assume the double task of running the Department of Education and also the Department for the Gaeltacht. The Minister did not tell us to-night about his intentions in that regard, or how long he intended to be a "caretaker", as it were, for this new Ministry, but, when I say that I feel that a new and young Ministry deserves a younger Minister, I say it in no desire to cast a reflection on the present Minister, who, obviously, is still a very active man, and proves himself, from my own experience, to be at least an excellent stonewaller; but I think that he himself would be the first to recognise that the initiating stage of a new Ministry would best be placed, other things being equal, in the hands of a younger man. I say that without any intention of being personally offensive.

I would say this—the present Minister for Education, as an example of the sort of thing I mean, is an excellent and fluent speaker of Irish; he speaks it a lot; he speaks it well; he lets very few occasions go by without taking the opportunity of speaking Irish, and yet, as Minister for Education, he has found it impossible to insist that, in the two big examinations conducted by the Department of Education, the Intermediate Certificate and the Leaving Certificate, there will be an oral examination in Irish. I cite that as an example of the failure— I do not think that is too harsh a term —of a man who is an enthusiast, the failure of such a man to organise a new, rather obviously necessary thing, an oral test in a living language.

Now that seems to me to be a symbol of much of the betrayal of the ideals of the language: to treat ministerially, in the Department of Education, the Irish language precisely like a dead language. I do not believe you can encourage students to speak Irish if you are not prepared to examine them in their capacity to speak it. If this Gaeltacht Ministry is really to do something new, it will have to be a little bolder than that. It will have to show more imagination. There will have to be a really fresh start, with real drive, and I believe that that can be done mainly for the genuine enthusiasts. I do not believe you can do very much for those who are reluctant to adopt or maintain Irish as their daily language.

I shall end, consequently, on a slightly pessimistic note. I fear that not very much new will, in fact, be done by this Ministry. My fear is that not a little money will be handed out, and that in five, ten or even 20 years' time there will not be, in fact, very much to show for it.

Tá mé buíoch don tSeanadóir Éamonn Ó Cíosáin as ucht na fáilte a thug sé don mBille seo. Chuir sé ceist orm i dtaobh iascaireacht agus i dtaobh na rudaí go mbféidir a aistriú chun na Roinne seo. Más rud é go bhfuil aon tuairimí agam fé láthair faoi na rudaí sin b'fhearr liom gan iad a nochtadh go fóill mar támuid ag cur córas ar bun chun na ceisteanna sin go léir do scrudú agus chun moladh a dhéanamh fúthu don Rialtas. Bíodh agus go mba mhaith liom roinnt áirithe rudaí do dhéanamh, b'fhearr liom cabhair d'fháil. B'fhearr liom go mbéadh Rúnaí na Roinne ann chomb maith le daoine a bheadh ag obair i nDún na nGall, i nGaillimh agus i gCúige Mumhan mar, gan aon agó, beidh roinnt feidhmeannach i ngach ceann de na ceantair sin chun an obair do stiúriú agus do riaradh. Ní bheidh an fhoireann an-mhór ach beidh daoine ann go bhfuil údarás agus tuiscint agus taithí acu ins na ceantair sin. Is fearr iad san a thabhairt le chéile ar dtús sar a ndeintear aon rud chun aon chuid d'aon Roinn eile nó aon scéim eile do thabhairt isteach faoin Aireacht nua. Bíodh sin mar atá, beidh siad ag tabhairt faoin obair sin chomh luath agus a raghaidh an Bille seo tríd an Oireachtas.

Senator Skeffington raised a number of questions. I do not think it is necessary to go into them now. There is an Irish saying: "Ná tuig gach a gcloistear duit mar is mó bréag a ndéan gach toisg." In English, it means: Do not understand everything you hear because it is many a lie that one deduction would make. I would expand that to: Do not understand half the things you see, either.

I would not care to think it was reasonable to suggest there was a complete failure with regard to the proper handling of, say, a language through the schools system, because, in an examination such as the Intermediate Certificate or the Leaving Certificate, there was not an oral examination in Irish. I should like the Senator some time, when he feels in a light, kindergarten humour, and has a few boxes of matches in his pocket, to set out a scheme by which the number of children, boys and girls, going through the Intermediate Certificate and Leaving Certificate examinations would be orally examined in Irish—in an examination which, so far as the Intermediate Certificate is concerned, at any rate, is, to some extent, a competitive examination so far as certain results from that examination are concerned. However, it is a very nice and interesting question. Do not judge our ability to tackle jobs of any kind by the view that here is a Minister who failed to introduce an oral test in Irish in these examinations and what can you expect from him in any other line of life.

May I just point to the French system, which I think is good, and which in their Baccalaureat, the rough equivalent of our Leaving Certificate, they have an oral examination for every living language, including French? It involves hundreds of thousands of students. If they can do it, we can. Proportionately, the problem is the same.

If the Senator could understand the extent to which the Department of Education in this country is put to the pin of its collar to provide examiners for the Intermediate and Leaving Certificates, as these examinations stand, he would understand that there might be a little additional difficulty and that if we had to undertake an oral examination it might be the last straw that would break the camel's back. It has been very substantially and very carefully considered, with a very considerable amount of seeking for advice. While I suffer from the fears of a breakdown of the examination system for the Intermediate and Leaving Certificates, under the strain to which it is subject at present, I am not going to consider in any kind of a practical way—it has already been considered in a very practical way—an oral examination in Irish in these two examinations. However, that is a bit of a digression.

What I say with regard to not making deductions would apply, I think, to some other parts of Senator Sheehy Skeffington's remarks. I feel there is a very considerable appreciation on the part of a lot of people who do not make any attempt to speak Irish of what Irish means to the country and there are very many things affecting people's lives to-day under the present strains and stresses that make it very easy for them to turn away from keeping their Irish polished up. On the other hand, there is throughout the country, from one end to the other, a very considerable knowledge of the language that is like a banked-up turf fire that just requires a gentle wind to blow it to a flame and to have a very healthy warmth.

The Senator suggests that the economic approach to the Gaeltacht is the thing that will save the language. I hope there will be a profitable and helpful economic approach to the work of these districts, but it will want more than that. A lot more than that will be done in calling back the people of districts that have gone through very distressing and very poor times to the great heritage that is theirs. They speak a language that has been the language of the literature of their race from the very earliest of times and they carry in their minds and hearts a very substantial portion of a traditionally handed-on literature. The economic side will be dealt with in the best way we can, but our hopes are high enough in relation to the well-being of the people in these districts, their capacity to hold on to and develop a free and happy life there and to maintain their language. Thus, our hope in that matter is sufficiently strong to be able to bear quite readily a little challenge and a little expression of want of faith in what we may or may not do.

I can assure the Senator that there is no window dressing in this. What people may say in regard to the language expresses what it means to them. There is very little window dressing. There may be an odd bit of buailim sciath, but, when people speak of the language, they speak of something they sincerely believe in. I think that if, like this Bill, the people who talk about the language were given the charity of the chance which the Senator speaks about, we would all find the influence of our national culture on the general life of all classes of the people and their freedoms very much increased and mellowed throughout the country as a whole.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 30th May, 1956.
The Seanad adjourned at 10.10 p.m. until 3 p.m. Wednesday, 30th May, 1956.
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