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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1956

Vol. 46 No. 1

Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Bill, 1956—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

As Senators are aware, the present method of distributing the agricultural grant has been in operation since the year 1953. The Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Act, 1953 which applied to the financial years 1953-54, 1954-55 and 1955-56 provided for the making by county councils of the following allowances by way of abatement of rates to occupiers of agricultural holdings in rural areas:

"(a) a primary allowance of three-fifths of the general rate in the £ on the land valuation up to £20.

(b) an employment allowance of £17 for each adult workman at work on the holding during the whole of the preceding calendar year, subject to the limitation that the total of the employment allowance shall not exceed the general rate in the £ on the valuation over £20."

The object of this Bill is to continue this method of distribution of the grant for a further period of three years commencing on the 1st April, 1956.

While the agricultural grant has now been in operation for almost 60 years it was not until the year 1946-47 that the system was introduced whereby the amount of the grant paid to county councils varies with fluctuations in the rates struck by the councils. The Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Act, 1946, provided that the grant would be the sum needed to give relief on the following basis:—

"(1) A primary allowance at the rate of three-fifths of the general rate in the £ on the land valuation up to £20;

(2) A supplementary allowance of one-fifth of the general rate in the £ on the land valuation over £20;

(3) An employment allowance calculated at the rate of 10/- in the £ on the land valuation over £20, subject to the limitation that the allowance should not exceed £6 10s., for each adult workman at work on the holding during the whole of the preceding calendar year."

This method of distribution continued to operate until the passing of the 1953 Act which abolished the supplementary allowance, increased the employment allowance but left the primary allowance unchanged.

The amount of the agricultural grant increased from £4,938,555 in the year 1953-54 to £5,178,454 in the year 1954-55, and to £5,265,430 in the year 1955-56. The amount of the grant for the coming year is estimated at £5,600,000. The total payable in 1955-56 was divided as follows:—

Primary allowance

£3,880,378

Employment allowance

£1,369,920

Amount paid to certain county borough corporations and urban district councils

£15,132

The employment allowance may be claimed only in respect of a man at work during the whole of the calendar year preceding the relevant financial year. The 1953 Act, which applied to the financial years 1953-54, 1954-55 and 1955-56 did not become law until 23rd December, 1953. Hence the Act could not have affected the number of employees until, at the earliest, the calendar year 1954, and claims in respect of those employees did not arise until 1955-56. The numbers in respect of whom employment allowances were claimed in the period covered by the 1953 Act were:—

1953-54

92,504

1954-55

92,969

1955-56

90,826

It cannot be claimed that the allowances under the 1953 Act have had the effect of increasing continuous whole-time employment in 1954 but it is too soon yet to form any definite conclusions as to the long-term effect of the Act on agricultural employment.

However, before the period to which the present Bill applies has expired it should be possible to decide from the figures then available, whether the present system has justified itself. I think that this system should get a fair trial and, therefore, in this Bill it is proposed to continue for the current financial year and the two following years the method of distribution provided for in the Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Act, 1953.

I should be glad if the Minister could give an estimate of the number he visualises will be employed in the current year. He states that the number employed for the previous year was 90,826, but in the figure of £5,600,000 which he has given as an estimate of the total expenditure by the Central Authority, I take it he must have calculated the approximate number who will be employed for the present year, because last year the amount of the employment allowance was £1,369,920. The number employed in 1953-54 was 92,504, and, in 1954-55, it was 92,969.

It would be of some assistance to this House if the figure of the estimate for the current year could be given, because it is particularly important for the economy of this country that as many as possible of the people should be employed on our land, if we are to increase production. We all know that it is essential that production from the land should be increased, if we are to realise our ambitions and if we are to export more agricultural produce in order to rectify the present serious adverse trade balance.

Reference has already been made to the fact that it is necessary to have employment for the full 12 months of the year before the farmer can qualify, and I would even at this stage ask the Minister to consider whether it would not be more reasonable to permit the qualification to apply on, say, an 11months basis. As the Minister is aware, a great deal of the land which is tilled in this country is held on the conacre letting system, which is an 11 months basis. We can all realise that, when a worker leaves during the course of the year, two or three weeks may elapse before the farmer can make arrangements to obtain another employee. I understand that in parts of the southern counties, it is a usual practice for the workmen to leave around Christmas and not to return to their employment until well on in the new year.

At column 1053 of the Official Debates of 22nd March last, Deputy Smith asked:—

"Therefore as a result of the Act which we are now proposing to have re-enacted, the State is being saved £100,000?"

The Minister's reply was:—

"In the one year for which we have figures."

The State, therefore, has benefited in consequence of the amendment of legislation which was passed when this Act was adopted in 1953.

In view of the fact that there is such a continuous rise in the wages of the agricultural worker—I understand that there will be an increase of 6/- in the next two or three weeks—it seems to me that the figure of £17 per employee is not a fair figure to which to tie it down for three years, when real values are depreciating. It would be much more reasonable if the Minister asked that the Bill should be brought in only for one year. It would look, on the face of it, that, each year, as wages increase, the State will benefit more and more.

It seems to me also that the person over 16 should qualify rather than that he should have to be 17 years. The Minister knows that an employee over 16 must have his insurance cards stamped and if those young people are not encouraged to remain on the land, and instead are encouraged to work on the roads or to emigrate, it is not a good day's work for the country. In view of the fact that farmers are now finding it very difficult to make ends meet, on account of the increase in the cost of fertilisers and animal feeding stuffs, the increase in the rates, and increases in agricultural wages, and the fact that agricultural prices are not advancing accordingly, and that some commodities are not economic to produce, such as eggs, and that cattle prices have gone down a good deal since last year——

Not as much as the Irish Press said.

The Minister must agree that farm prices have depreciated considerably in the past eight or nine months. It would be no harm also to remember that the farmer contributes £2,250,000 in the rent element of land annuities, which is a tax collected by the Exchequer, and according to the Statistical Survey of 1954, page 47, national income in 1954 was £448,000,000, and, of this, the agricultural community's share was £135,000,000, and the rest's, £313,000,000. In that survey, agriculture includes fishing. If we consider, therefore, that the agricultural community got less than one-third of the national income, and that those engaged in agriculture are approximately half of the male workers in the country, it is obvious that those people in rural Ireland are not getting a fair share of the pool.

I should like to refer the Minister to the statement which was made last night by General Costello in connection with the rise in agricultural wages. He said that the increase in the farmers' wage bill which will take effect in the next month should be met by adopting labour saving and other cost-saving methods recommended to the farmers, and the co-operation of the Beet Growers' Association was asked for, in an effort to persuade the farmers to avail themselves of those opportunities of reducing production costs. Surely that means that in this year the numbers of employees engaged on the land will become less——

That is not logical, I think.

I cannot see why it is not. Wages are going up, and they are advised to adopt labour-saving devices by hiring or purchasing machinery to cut out the labour content. For those reasons, I suggest that a three-year period is, in those circumstances, too long, and that one year would be much more reasonable, because of the fact, as the Minister has already stated, that it was only for experimental purposes that the Bill was extended.

I should like also to refer to the fact that in the social study conference summer school in Dundalk in August, 1954, Mr. Louis Smith, assistant lecturer in University College, Dublin, stated that industry employed less people than agriculture, both directly and indirectly, and that, furthermore, 1,154 of their 1,400 factories were protected. With the exception of certain established concerns, very few of those industries covered the cost of their total imports by their exports. Even the dairy industry exported £6,000,000 worth of chocolate crumb on the open market. For those reasons, as agriculture is therefore obviously the one industry in which there is hope of expanding, everything possible should be done to enable the farmers to retain more men on the land.

I should like to welcome this Bill, knowing from experience that the concessions it gives to the farming community are very much appreciated in my own county. Unfortunately, because of the fact that by far the greater number of the holdings in County Mayo are uneconomic, they can only enjoy the primary allowance of three-fifths of the rates, and a very small number of them can come in for the supplementary allowance of one-fifth of the general rate in the £ on land valuations over £20. My only regret is that the towns cannot come in for some concessions, because never were they more necessary than at the present time. I welcome the Bill because it is appreciated by the vast majority of the people in the county I come from and helps them in every way to meet their commitments. As a result, they are able to discharge their responsibilities.

The decision of the Fianna Fáil Government in 1953 to change the system of allocation of the agricultural grant was very strongly criticised at the time it was introduced. Nevertheless, I think the principle embodied in that reform was sound. Where, as the Minister pointed out, in 1946, the agricultural grant was distributed on a flat rate, that is to say, whatever amount was distributed, each farmer got the same benefit according to his valuation, in 1953, the principle of a primary and a supplementary employment allowance was introduced. The then Government decided to abandon the supplementary allowance of one-fifth of the rate and to substitute instead an increase in the employment allowance from £6 10s. to £17, in respect of each person employed. The reason for so doing was to give some recognition and encouragement to the farmer who was endeavouring to employ labour on his farm. For that reason, the principle was sound.

Senator Walsh has referred to the advice which is being given to farmers to dispense with labour, in view of the higher wages. That advice is being generally given, and I was rather surprised to note that it is being given sometimes by agricultural advisers evidently working on economics. They say: "Well, if wages are high and if it is difficult to meet the rising wages, the only way to achieve it is by increased mechanisation and by reducing the number of workers." Farmers do feel that there is a certain amount of truth in that, and they do tend to take that line of action; but it is the duty of the State, in the national interest, to encourage every owner of land as far as possible to give the maximum amount of labour as a social duty, because, as we know, social considerations are at least as important as, and in my opinion more important than, economic considerations. The farmer who has to live out of a piece of land must be concerned mainly with economic considerations, if he is to remain in business. The original Act, which this Bill seeks to prolong, recognised that principle and gave increased benefit to the person who was employing labour.

The Minister said that there has not been, since the original Act was introduced, any substantial increase in the volume of labour on the land and questioned, therefore, whether the Act has justified itself or not. I think the Act could not be judged entirely by that standard. The forces operating to reduce the number of workers on the land are strong economic forces and it would be difficult to expect that an allowance of £17 would induce a farmer to keep an additional employee, whose wage bill would probably be in the region of £250 a year, if it was not otherwise economic for him to keep him.

What the original Act sought to do was to give some recognition in the matter of relief of rates to the man who employed labour, to give him some little benefit—it was undoubtedly small —over and above the person who gave the minimum amount of labour.

The supplementary allowance which was provided in the 1946 Act applied to all valuations over £20, irrespective of whether there was employment given on the land or not. The farmer whose valuation was over £20 got an abatement of one-fifth of his rates on every £1 of his valuation over £20, irrespective of whether he gave employment or not. That concession was withdrawn under the 1953 Act and, on the whole, that legislation was a reform in the matter of the distribution of the agricultural grant.

It will be recognised that the 1953 Act had only a short duration—I think three years. That was deliberately done to ensure that the new system would be given a trial and, if certain anomalies or injustices were found in the system, it could be revised. That has been made clear. The Act of 1953 provided that the benefits which farmers as a body would get under that Act would be equal to what they would have got under the previous legislation. That position operated for the whole period. In the last year, it has become clear that, with the rapid rise in rates, the farming community are not getting now as much benefits as they would have got under the 1946 Act. Therefore, at the end of the three-year period, the provisions should be revised and should be made more generous.

Certain suggestions have been submitted to the Minister—in my opinion, constructive suggestions—as to how the Act might be amended in a small way for the benefit of the farmers. First of all, there is the position that relief in respect of the employment of a worker will not be operative unless the worker is in constant employment for a full year. Every Senator will recognise that it is, again, socially desirable that employment should be continuous and that, therefore, the worker should be in constant employment for the full year, if possible; but everyone knows that, in practice, it is very difficult to ensure that that will be the case.

A farmer may have a worker in constant employment, but the worker may decide to leave, or he may become ill, or may die. In that case, it may not be possible for the employer to replace him immediately. Some little time must elapse before another permanent employee can be secured, and, as a result, the farmer would lose the benefit of the allowance under the Act. That is just one example of how the Act has operated unfairly to the employer. It would not be unreasonable to ask the Minister to introduce an amendment, providing that any farmer who gives constant employment to a worker for a period of at least 11 months would be qualified to receive the employment allowance.

There is another matter also in this connection, that is, that a worker must be over 17 years of age in order that his employer may qualify for this allowance. That is unfair, because, in the majority of cases, workers take up employment on the land at 16 years of age or earlier. It is, again, socially desirable that a boy living in the country and intending to work on the land should enter constant employment at the age of 16, if he is to become a trained agricultural worker.

It is provided in the Health Act that a worker must be insured at 16 years of age. The age of 16 is recognised as a desirable age for entry to employment. I do not see any reason why the allowance should not be given at 16 years of age, or why a worker over the age of 16, who is in constant employment, is not recognised as an employee under the Act.

If those two concessions were made to employers, it would bring the measure into line with what was intended, that is, that the employer who is making a decent effort to give reasonable employment should get reasonable benefit under the agricultural grant. It will be remembered that in the report of the Commission on Emigration, Most Rev. Dr. Lucey, Bishop of Cork, referred to this matter and suggested that an effort should be made by the adjustment of taxation— and he made particular reference to rates—to ensure that the maximum amount of employment will be given on the land.

That is what is sought, and the Minister would be doing a good service if he were to amend the Act under the two headings I have mentioned. There is a common view, and I think it was mentioned briefly by Senator Ruane here to-day, that people under £20 valuation do not get any benefit. That is not true, of course. This Bill applies to any person under £20 valuation and to the first £20 of all valuations, which means three-fifths of the rates, and it is a substantial benefit. Therefore, Senator Ruane was not quite correct when he suggested that people under £20 valuation would not benefit by the Act. They do undoubtedly benefit and I think it is only right that they should.

I hope the Minister, before this Bill passes through the Seanad, will see his way to revise the measure by the introduction of suitable amendments. I am rather inclined to think that Senators could not introduce such amendments to this Bill because, I suppose, they would be adding to the cost of the measure. I am not sure on that point. I think that the Minister should consider it. A reasonable case has been made for the two concessions which have been suggested. A case has certainly been made for the one suggested by Senator Walsh that the period of employment for 11 months should be reckoned as employment for 12 months.

I do not wish to speak generally on the Bill, of which I approve. I have just one or two observations to make in relation to the general body of taxation in the country. The rates which the farmers pay are their contribution to the direct taxation system which has grown up in a very anomalous manner. The whole taxation system is one for the whole community and not for any special section of the population. I am not saying whether the farmers have to pay too much or too little. I do suggest, however, that this whole system of relief of rates on agricultural land has grown up in a very haphazard manner, and I hope that, when the income-tax code is being inquired into by the commission promised by the Minister for Finance, this whole matter of the rates on agricultural land will also be subject of examination.

As we all know, the rates are the main taxes paid by the farmers in this country, and for the relief of rates considerable grants are made and these are raised by taxation from every section of the community, and partly from the farmers in another form. Therefore, I suggest that the time has come when this whole system needs to be reviewed and needs to be brought into the general framework of the taxation code in this country, both urban and rural.

The system of relief of rates on agricultural land has grown up in a haphazard and illogical manner. It started with the Local Government Act, 1899, when the first agricultural grant was given in order to relieve landlords of their share of local rates. When the lands passed from the landlords to the tenants, that relief accrued to the tenants who then became the owners. At the time of the Treaty the agricultural grant for the Twenty Six counties now forming the Republic was £599,000. At that time, income-tax was reduced to 3/- in the £, and as farmers did not pay much income-tax, their representatives in the Dáil suggested that they should get some equivalent relief, and it was in order to give them that equivalent relief for the reduction in income-tax which they did not pay, that the agricultural grant was doubled.

I have not noticed in recent times that, when income-tax went up, any similar motion or representations were made in the Dáil or Seanad, that, because income-tax had gone up, the amount of the agricultural grant should be reduced. The progressive system whereby the small farmer got more benefit than the large farmer was introduced later. It is obviously right in a system of direct taxation which should be progressive.

The system by which the relief is based on a principle which, I think, should clearly be investigated in the light of the facts of the situation. Obviously, the case is made that the farmer who gives employment is saving somebdy from emigrating, or helping to keep him on the land, and that is the case made in connection with this Bill.

The Minister for Agriculture, however, and Major General Costello, have stated that, to get the maximum production, there should be more mechanisation in order that we can get as much as possible from the land with the minimum of labour. It is in that way that we can get increased production, or a surplus of production which is needed for export. It does seem contradictory that we have the Minister for Local Government advocating a system of derating, based on employment content on the land, and, at the same time, the Minister for Agriculture and others telling the farmers that they should produce more, so that we can have a surplus for export, while using less labour. It does seem to me that these are two opposing views, and there are certain inconsistencies between them.

The Government should make up its mind whether they want more or less people employed on the land. You cannot have both at the one time. Therefore, I suggest that this principle of giving relief for additional labour employed is inconsistent with the declared Government policy of getting increased production, or productivity; that is to say, an increase in output, with a smaller number of workers employed. That seems a rational policy for agriculture to produce as much as possible with the minimum labour content. That may possibly produce a certain amount of unemployment, but eventually it would lead to a greater agricultural output, with an export potential which in the long run will help to increase employment in the country.

Therefore, I urge the Minister to apply his mind to the principles involved and to see, in so far as it is consistent with Government agricultural policy, that this matter of rates relief is considered in connection with the whole income-tax code, which I am glad to see is going to be examined by the commission which the Minister for Finance has promised.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

I wish to state that the principles on which this Bill is founded are definitely sound. The aim is to encourage employment and more employment on the land, with the result of more and more production. It is only natural to expect that, if that is to be successful, we must concentrate on the main industry, agriculture. If this Bill is to be a reality and is to bring to the people the assistance it is intended to give, there are a few points that I want to stress in a special way.

Take for instance, the issue of the whole year. It must be borne in mind that the conditions of employment in agriculture are not uniform all over the country. I speak now for Munster which has to be regarded as the dairying area. The position that obtains down there is that what you might term "the working year" is approximately from 1st February to the following Christmas Eve. Those men are hired. They usually stay in the house. They work with their employer. Instead of putting down "the whole year", I suggest "the working year".

This is not the first occasion on which a departure of this kind has been found possible. Over 40 years ago, when national health legislation came into existence, any employee with 48 stamps on his card was given credit as having worked a full year. Later on, in our own time, in the Superannuation Act of 1947 or 1948, a certain number of days—I think 200 days—is prescribed as qualifying a person to be treated by the local authority as an employee entitled to be put on the list for superannuation purposes. The main point is that a certain number of days is specified and that there is no such thing as the whole year in it. If the whole year is insisted on, the people engaged in dairying will be deprived of the benefits which they are entitled to have conferred on them under this Bill when it becomes an Act. If the Minister makes an inquiry as far as Munster is concerned, he will find that what I am saying is correct.

The man who works on a weekly basis may work the 52 weeks of the year, live in his own house, go out to work every morning and return home every evening, but the majority of the employees in Munster are known as "servant boys" whose year is approximately from 1st February to the following Christmas Eve. Those people never have the month of January from the point of view of work. With later legislation, it is much more attractive to take off the month of January, because, after going home on Christmas Eve, all those boys are entitled to claim and draw benefits on the stamps they accumulated in the previous year. That makes it all the easier for them to have the month of January at home.

That must be borne in mind while the man is drawing any benefits of that kind. It is illegal for him to put up stamps as it is illegal for anybody else to put them up for him. I would appeal to the Minister to look at the matter from a realistic point of view. It is only a matter of five or six weeks and there is nothing very big involved. It is a far fairer approach to give the benefit of the doubt. Accordingly, I ask the Minister to look at the matter in its true perspective.

There is a very big principle involved in regard to the ages prescribed. Quite a number of young fellows are definitely available for work at 16 years of age, and, if there is a choice, one will naturally select a person of 17 years, if this means a reduction in one's rates. That is ordinary common sense. Young fellows are entitled to leave the national school at 14 years of age. They can go to the technical school after that for two years, so that, when they reach 16 years of age, they have a very good education. They have a full primary education with two years in a vocational school. That being the case, they will command a market, because they are trained. They are of more value to the man working on the land because they are very well catered for by way of instruction in agriculture.

There is another point worth considering in this connection. If a young fellow goes on the land at 16 years of age, he may stay there, but, if he is left floating about at the age of 16, he has a greater temptation to emigrate, or at least go into the towns. As I said, there is a big principle involved here and the Minister should introduce an amendment reducing the age from 17 years to 16 years.

There is another matter which has been so often discussed that it is hardly necessary to drive it home again. I refer to the necessity of giving every assistance possible to the dairying industry. The dairying industry is one branch of agriculture that gives the greatest volume of employment. The tillage man merely requires a certain amount of help at seasonal periods and then he is finished, but it is the whole year round with the dairying farmer. He works for the full 365 days of the year. Everybody in the House has heard that often enough to realise it is a fact. It the Bill goes through the House in its present form, it will deprive that branch of the farming community of the benefits they are intended to reap from it. The Minister should consider the matter and introduce the necessary amendments to allow the full benefits intended to be given to go to the farmer.

I want to make one observation on this Bill in relation to the length of time necessary to qualify for the employment allowance. This is a matter upon which I have spoken every year this Bill came up. Great hardships can accrue to a farmer who is a permanent employer of labour. If one of his employees leaves his employment or dies during the year, the farmer loses his grant. What the Minister ought to do is to ensure that, where a farmer employs a man for a longer period than 12 months, he will become eligible for the grant for the next 12 months period, and if it took a month for the farmer to procure a suitable agricultural labourer, one-twelfth of the allowance should be disallowed in respect of that year.

The farmer who continuously employs men and loses them through no fault of his own has a justifiable grievance. I know people in my part of the country who have had men working for them 30 and 40 years. If one of these people dies and the farmer takes any length of time to replace him, he loses the allowance. I ask the Minister to give sympathetic consideration to genuine cases such as this. I would not be prepared to plead for the man who says: "I want to employ a man only for 12 months," but I do plead for it in the case of replacements.

Before we conclude this debate, I think it would be right to refer to the remarks made by Senator O'Brien. Senator O'Brien thought fit to suggest that, because the farmers were not in the income-tax category, we were in this Bill making some further provisions on their behalf. That is not so. I should like it to go forth from this House, to the country and to the farmers in general, that the terms of this Bill are based on the rates then prevailing. If there is an increase in the agricultural grant this year, next year, or the year after, it will be due to the fact that the rate has been increased.

That is something to which the members of this House should direct their particular attention. I do not propose to hold up discussion on this Bill in order to enumerate all the legislation that passed through this House, but if I were inclined to do so, I am sure the Minister would agree with me that 99 per cent. of it has passed on to the local authorities the obligation of increasing their demands in relation to the rates, as is the case in this Bill.

There are one or two questions which it is natural that we should ask in connection with this Bill. What is the purpose of the Bill? Why was it first introduced and has it of itself achieved the objectives which the originators of the Bill thought it would achieve. The Minister in presenting this measure here to-night has been very vague. He has introduced it to us in such a manner that if we took his introductory remarks very seriously, we should reject its provisions. He has given us figures over a number of years of the number of people employed in agricultural production. He has given to us the number of people who are beneficiaries under this Bill and he has suggested, in all seriousness, that it should be accepted, regardless of the fact that at one time he and his Party were totally opposed to such a measure and saw fit to object to it, as any Opposition, I will admit, will justify themselves in seeing fit to object to the provisions of such a Bill being passed through Dáil Éireann at a particular time.

What has changed the circumstances in relation to the agricultural community that should have changed the Minister's mind and convinced him that the Bill he is now presenting to us should be passed, having regard to the statements that he and his Party made just one year ago? We have probably this change of circumstances. It is probably one which the Minister, if he wanted to ensure that this Bill would get a speedy passage through this House, might put forward, that the agricultural community will have given to them from the Central Fund something between £500 and £650 increased benefits. That probably is the only case the Minister might make and it is the only basis on which he could make a case.

When we come to examine that case, we find that, as a result of much of the legislation which has been enacted by the Oireachtas, many of the obligations that should have been provided for from the Central Fund are passed on to the local authorities. Having regard to that fact and to the fact that the demand made on every valuation in the country has been increased over the past 12 months and that every rated agricultural occupier has to pay much more in his rate bill this year than last year, a very big question is resurrected. It resurrects the question as to whether it is a good policy to continue on the lines that, over the period of the next three years, we will be subsidising the farmers for the number of people they employ on their holdings.

Agriculture is our main industry. It is the one thing we look to to bring us out of the very difficult position in which we now find ourselves. Is it not time that we should decide amongst ourselves in a national Parliament that those who are engaged in agricultural production will obtain a remunerative market, something that will compensate themselves and their employees, rather than adopt the methods suggested in this Bill, which will not achieve the objectives sought by the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Finance or any of those other people who are concerned about the difficult position in which we now find ourselves? I think it is on these lines we should direct our approach to this problem.

After that, we come down to an examination of what we are doing in this Bill. I believe that the people with the £20 valuations should get some compensation for the position in which they will find themselves. What do we find when we come to the problem of compensating employers of labour? We find that the Bill hamstrings, if I may use the word, those people who might be inclined to employ labour. The Minister, as well as every other member of the House who has had any association with rural Ireland, knows that such difficulties will arise. You may have a very good man employed, a man who is as trustworthy as yourself, to run your farm. That man may have died on the 30th December, 1955. It is very sad for himself and his wife and for his family, but is equally sad for the employer who was so anxious to get somebody to look after his farm.

Weeks may pass before the employer will be able to employ a man of similar capabilities and of similar trustworthiness, and, because of his inability to get an immediate successor to his deceased employee, the farmer will be victimised by law, whether he be the owner of a 25 acre farm or a 150 acre farm. He may have given employment for 364 days of the year and because he did not give employment on the 365th day, he is victimised. The Minister would need to be realistic, if he wants this measure to act as an incentive to employers to employ more people on the land over a period of months. The Minister should see to it that the employment period would be considered in relation to the months or weeks that a person has been employed, instead of in relation to the whole year. It is all right for the members of the Labour Party to joke about this question.

Why does the Senator make that reference? I think the Senator is the only one who is joking.

They have no knowledge of what rural Ireland means. They draw their remuneration from the contributions of the people who are registered with their trade unions. We who come from rural Ireland know the difficulty with which farmers are faced.

I hope to be brief in anything I have got to say on this measure. I have often wondered why the vulgar fraction "three-fifths" was first decided upon and why it has been maintained so religiously. I suppose there can be an argument for its reduction in some cases and for its being raised in other cases, but my view is that it should remain at three-fifths, if the rate does not exceed 30/- in the £ in the different counties. However, where the rate does exceed 30/- in the £ this fraction should be increased so as to provide a greater measure of help to the local authorities concerned.

Such an arrangement would help the counties in the congested districts where the taxable capacity is low and from which you have the greatest volume of emigration. It would help such counties as Kerry, Clare, Donegal, Sligo, Galway and Leitrim, as well as a few other counties. I think the Minister should examine that fraction, with a view to having it modified in some direction. If it were modified, I think the money being disbursed by the Minister to aid local authorities could be more equitably distributed.

I should like to hear the Minister on the point as to whether or not it would be possible to amend the Bill now or later, with a view to giving a more generous allowance in counties where the rate exceeds 30/- in the £. If that figure did not suit, perhaps 35/- in the £ would be appropriate, because it is obvious that some councils have to raise their rates to a degree where it is not a rate in the £ any more but a rate on the £2.

Senator Hartney spoke about the question of the employment allowance. So did Senator Burke. I think the difference between their viewpoints was so little that it hardly befitted Senator Burke to criticise what Senator Hartney said. Both appeared to want to achieve the same object, but there was a slight difference as to how far one would go in comparison with the other.

The phrase "whole year" is rather ambiguous. It might be argued by a clever lawyer that it would include Sunday work. It might result in a situation where a farmer whose employee was absent for two or three days, although he was not sick, could not claim relief, although the man might have been employed for the rest of the calendar year. It might be argued that because an employee did not work on a Sunday or on Christmas Day, his employer was not entitled to benefit. There are several border line cases of that kind which need proper definition. Although a farmer might have a perfectly moral right to claim benefit, he might be debarred by law from doing so. I hope the Minister will give serious consideration to the suggestion that the fraction three-fifths should be modified in the hope of giving a greater measure of relief to counties that have to levy the highest rates in the country.

My contribution to the debate will be very short, but, as I come from rural Ireland, I am interested in certain aspects of this Bill. I would ask the Minister to examine carefully suggestions made by some Senators on the far side of the House to bring down the age from 17 to 16. I think a good case could be made for this change, but, at the same time, I believe a good case could be made against it. When one considers the school-leaving age at the present time, and the fact that they have spent a period at the vocational school, it is reasonable to find a lot of young people on the land at the present time starting at the age of 16. I would ask the Minister in his generosity to examine a particular case where a labourer works for ten or 11 months, and then through circumstances over which the employer has no control, he loses that employee and also his benefit.

We had a peculiar case in North Tipperary some time ago—in fact, a lot of these cases came before the court— and one of them was a farmer who employed one constant man all the year round and then had to employ casuals. Senator Hartney made a case of a somewhat different kind. In a tillage area like that of North Tipperary, where you have beet, wheat, hay and potatoes and so on, the work has to be carried out. You can have two men for the whole year, and at harvest time you might need one or two others.

In the case to which I am referring in North Tipperary, we had a farmer who employed one man constantly and that man went to England some time in August. The farmer was a lady and she employed two extra men after that, but she kept on this man's name whom she had insured, although he had left. The Justice gave a decree against her. The country people in filling in forms, it should be remembered, are not very conversant with the situation, as can be seen from the fact that they frequently have men employed for whom they do not actually claim.

Senator Hawkins seemed to be drawing attention to the Labour Party and suggested that the Labour Party had no connection with rural Ireland; but I am a countryman, and I would say that the bulk of our Deputies and Senators come from rural Ireland. We have good contacts with the people and I hope we always will have.

I ask the Minister to examine those points carefully; I agree that there is a lot for and quite a lot against them. Listening to Senator Hawkins, I got the impression that this was a new Bill the Minister was bringing in. Coming, as I said, from rural Ireland, I am interested in agricultural relief and I know the Bills and Acts which have been before the House during the previous Government's time, but I never saw in any debate that Senator Hawkins made any contribution either for himself or for his Party in regard to the very matters he criticised here this afternoon. I ask the Minister to examine the points that have been mentioned and to give them sympathetic consideration.

I welcome the suggestions that various Senators have expressed here, but I deplore the introduction, by Senator Hawkins, of politics into this matter. He wants to know what is my attitude or why should the attitude of my colleagues and myself change by reference to the Act of 1953. There has been no change on our part. The Act of 1953 went through both Houses without a division. There has been no change, and any criticism levelled at the Bill before the House was levelled not so much at what the Bill contained as at what preceded it. Let us look back for a few moments and let us see what preceded it.

In May, 1953, the then Minister sent out a circular to all local authorities informing them that the allowance would be £13 per person. In the meantime, we had two by-elections, one in Wicklow and one in East Cork, and it was as a result of those by-elections and in an effort to hold on to a number of votes and to retain them that the then Minister saw fit to raise the allowance from £13 to £17 when introducing the Bill.

I deplore the introduction of politics into this matter. This is not my Bill. It was introduced by my predecessor and became an Act. I do not say I agree with it, in its entirety, but I think it deserves a fair trial, and I say it has not got a fair trial. I think we should give it three years more and see if the Act of my predecessor is one to which we should cling as he suggested. I do not say that the Bill is ideal, but let us at least do the last Government the justice of finding out if their legislation is what they promised it would be. That is all I am asking the House to do.

In considering this matter, we must first of all realise in connection with Bills such as this that we have to go back at least half a century to the time when farmers employed farm labourers for six or eight months each year at a time when there was no employment assistance or benefit and very little outdoor relief, and when those unfortunate farm workers were thrown out for three or four months in the year. The Government then decided they would endeavour to encourage farmers to keep their employees in full-time employment during the entire 12 months and it was for that purpose that these Bills, the Land Relief Bills, were introduced originally. The aim of the legislation was to ensure that farm workers would not be thrown on to the roadside when the harvest was in, and in the period between the harvest and the spring. The aim was not to give farmers relief from their rates, but to encourage the farmers to retain the farm workers in full-time employment.

A plea has been made to me, first of all, by my colleague, Senator Walsh, who says that the conacre farmer takes land for 11 months of the year and employs labour for 11 months, but obtains no relief under this measure. Of course, he does not. The taker of conacre never paid rates in his life and never paid——

He pays it through the rent.

He is not the rated occupier. The ratepayer is the owner of the land and it is the owner of the land who pays the rates and who is, therefore, entitled to repayment. I have very little sympathy indeed with the person who takes land on conacre, because far too much land is in conacre in this country. He is not the man who is entitled to any relief under this legislation and we have to rule him out. Senator Walsh knows that as well as I do.

I do not really know what Senator Walsh was getting at when he said that three years was too long a time for which to ask the Oireachtas to sanction this measure. We are not, I am sure, trying to encourage graziers by this Bill. We are trying to encourage the farmer who cultivates his land and the dairy farmer who employs labourers to milk his cattle. We are endeavouring to encourage them to retain in full employment their farm labourers for 12 months of the year.

I have a great deal of sympathy with what Senator Hartney said, that in his part of the country the farm labourer finishes on Christmas Eve and is not re-employed until 1st February. I did tender certain advice in the Dáil on the Second Reading of this Bill. I do not propose to tender it again. It was quoted afterwards by my colleague, Deputy Corry. If there is a contract of service for 12 months, there is no necessity for the labourers to remain in full employment for the 12 months; he may have a month's leave. So long as there is a retainer and so long as he is retained by the farmer for the 12 months, that is sufficient, and I am not concerned with the amount of the retainer and I am quite certain the local authority is not concerned.

Remember, the local authorities have certain discretions under this Bill and under the previous Act, and I am satisfied, from what the Deputy from Cork and the Senators to-day have said, that these men who are in employment for 11 months are employed for 12 months and that they are merely let off or permitted to go home, or given a holiday, or however you wish to describe it, for that annual period from Christmas Eve to 1st February, that is, provided they are not going to take up employment elsewhere. I think that should cover the point which was made by several Senators and I do not wish to refer to them all.

On a point of explanation, assuming my man leaves at Christmas Eve and is not disposed to come back to me again, if I take the man that worked up to Christmas Eve with the man outside the fence, that creates no offence—that is full employment in the sense that the Minister wishes to convey?

I do not think it is fair to ask a Minister to construe the Act, but I will give the Senator gratuitously that advice—that is quite all right. A number of Senators, including Senator Hartney and Senator Burke, asked me to reduce the age from 17 years to 16 years. It is a most peculiar thing that down through the years for the past 20 years, when these Acts were first introduced, 17 years has been the age. There was then no compulsory school attendance and there were no vocational schools in the country. I remember the time when farm labourers were employed in my part of the country from the age of ten years up. They went to the hiring fairs of Strabane and other areas in that locality and were hired out from ten years of age up. Thank God, that day is gone. I think 17 years is sufficiently young for a boy to take up employment, especially when he has to attend school until 15 years of age and when we have vocational schools in practically every parish in the country. If you put them out at 16 years of age, you are looking for cheap labour, nothing else. It is something that should not be encouraged. God knows, we have enough unemployed in this country over 17 years of age.

The Agricultural Wages Board sees to it.

I do not think they provide for them under 17 years of age.

Yes, they do.

I accept the Senator's word for that. I am not in a position to say.

Why do they insist on stopping at 16?

Which Department?

The Department of Social Welfare.

That question could be well addressed to another Minister.

Yes. That is outside the scope of this Bill.

I really do not know if there is much more that I can say. The House will recollect that, under the Superannuation Act of 1956, I endeavoured to help employees of local authorities by substituting 200 service days for 200 working days and will remember the plea made here to reduce it to 150. It is the same thing with this Bill. The farmer must employ the labourer for 12 months of the year. Some people suggest 11 months. Others suggest that in the period between harvest and spring, there is not very much to be done on the farm. I do not wish to labour that, but I think the House will appreciate that, no matter what period we state in the Bill, there will be people who will find that it may be rather difficult and severe on them.

I think I have replied to most of the points which have been raised, bearing in mind all the time that the purpose of the Bill is not to give relief to the farmer but to encourage the farmer to give wholetime employment to his farm labourer, and if there be snags such as the Seanad has pointed out, there are methods of getting over them, and I only hope that any advice I have given may be of some benefit to the people of Cork and Limerick.

Thanks very much.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the next stage?

There is only one operative section and we might take it now, if there is no objection.

Appeals have been made to the Minister from all sides of the House to introduce certain amendments, and it would be right to give him some time.

In fairness, I could not amend this Bill. I would have to withdraw the Bill and reintroduce it. I could not amend this Bill to embody any of the suggestions that have been made.

Could the Minister not change the fraction in regard to certain counties?

We have too many borders in this country. That is the trouble.

And they are not in the right place.

We will agree to take all stages now.

Agreed to take remaining stages now.

Bill put through Committee; reported without amendment; received for final consideration and passed.

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