Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Nov 1956

Vol. 46 No. 12

Milk and Dairies (Amendment) Bill, 1956—Second Stage.

Question proposed: That the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

Almost 80 years have passed since legislation was first introduced, in the interests of public health, to improve the quality and purity of milk sold for human consumption. In all that time, the constant aim has been to ensure as far as possible that milk reaching the consumer should be of a high standard of quality and free from disease organisms or other contamination harmful to human beings. To achieve this, it was found essential that strict supervision and control should be exercised at all stages of the production of milk and of its subsequent handling and distribution up to the point of delivery to the consumer. The general system of such control was initiated under the Contagious Diseases of Animals Act, 1878 and was revised and modernised under the Act which is at present in operation, namely the Milk and Dairies Act, 1935.

While the administration of the latter Act is entrusted to the Ministers for Health and Agriculture, the detailed exercise of the various controls is a function of the local sanitary authorities, and it is a tribute to them that in the 21 years in which they have performed their onerous duties in regard to milk, the quality and wholesomeness of our liquid milk supplies has been greatly improved.

Although the Act of 1935 has operated smoothly, I think that the time has come when it is necessary to tighten up on the system of control and to further facilitate its operation by removing some administrative difficulties which experience of the day-to-day working of the Act has disclosed.

As to the details of the Bill, I have been glad to arrange for the circulation to members of this House of a memorandum which explains the provisions of each section. I trust that Senators will have found the memorandum fully explanatory, but if there are any matters about which they may still be in doubt, I will be only too glad to clarify them further in the course of the discussion on the Bill. As each section has been formulated for the sole purpose of ensuring that at all times the public milk supply will be of the highest possible quality, I am quite confident that Senators will unanimously endorse the proposals contained in the Bill.

I should like to add that the reason I have adopted the procedure of formulating the memorandum at this stage is that the Bill is largely a Bill by reference, and it imposes on Senators a well-nigh intolerable burden if they have to refer to every statute which this Bill purports to amend. I think it would suit their convenience better if I scheduled all the amendments and the relevant statutes and explained in the memorandum exactly what the effects of each amendment would be.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Is dóigh liom gur féidir a rá i dtaobh an Bhille seo ar nós a lán Billí eile a h-achtaíodh ó am go h-am go bhfuil forála agus coinníollacha iontu chun smacht a chur ar aicmí áirithe mar mhaithe leis an bpobal i gcoiteann. Tá sé i gceist, áfach, cé an fhaid is ceart dul leis an gcuspóir sin. Sí sláinte na ndaoine atá i gceist sa Bhille seo, agus go deimhin tá an tsláinte chomh tábhachtach san go gcaithfimíd bheith sásta le pé rialacha a cuirfear i bhfeidhm maidir le díol agus dáiliú bainne, go mór mór nuair a cuimhnítear ar shláinte na n-óg, óir is iad san is mó a úsáideann bainne. Ní fheadar in Éirinn conus a mhair na leanaí fadó nuair ná raibh aon trácht ar Achtanna ná ar rialacha i dtaobh an bhainne. Ní raibh ag déanamh buartha do thuismitheoirí an uair sin ach a ndóthain de d'fháil, agus deirtear linn go n-éiríodh na leanaí sin suas 'na bhfearaibh agus na mnáibh folláine.

Ar a shon san is uile, is ceart gach dícheall a dhéanamh chun bainne a cuirtear thart timpeall i measc na ndaoine a choimeád glan agus saor ó fhrídíní contúirteacha an oiread agus is féidir. Sin é an fáth nar cheart an Bille seo do lochtú, cé go bhfuil rud nó dhó ag baint leis, b'fhéidir, a dhéanfadh ábhar clamhsáin, ach ní rudaí iad a bhaineann go bunúsach leis an mBille. Níl i gceist anso ach Bille chun an Bun-Acht do leasú, an tAcht a ritheadh sa bhliain 1935, ach mar sin féin is Bille achrannach é, mar ní mór dul siar ar fhorála an chéad Achta chun greim ceart d'fháil ar théarmaí an Bhille seo. 'Na theannta san is Bille do Choiste é, agus sin ceann des na fáthanna nac mian liom-sa caint ró-mhór a dhéanamh air.

I have not very much to add to what I have already said in Irish on this Bill. As the Minister has stated, it is largely a Bill of reference to other Acts, chiefly to the Milk and Dairies Act, 1935. Because it is a measure of reference, it is all the more difficult to grasp the various sections. It is also rendered more complicated by reason of the fact that two Ministers are involved, if not three—the Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Health, and then we have the local authorities and, by reason of the fact that they enter into it, we can say that the Minister for Local Government has some function.

Mr. Dillon

No, only the two Ministers.

Mr. Kissane

The local authorities come very much into the picture.

Mr. Dillon

Through the Minister for Health.

Mr. Kissane

I should say at the outset that it is right and proper that the Minister, or both Ministers—the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Health—should have the necessary authority to enforce regulations in relation to the sale and distribution of liquid milk, so as to ensure, as far as is humanly possible, that no contamination will arise to the general public from milk which otherwise might be sold and delivered under unhygienic conditions. Milk is a very important commodity in the dietary of the country, especially for young people. Everybody knows that milk is highly susceptible to contamination, unless it is handled properly. The fundamental consideration in connection with the sale and distribution of milk is cleanliness and every effort should be made to ensure that milk which is for sale and distribution is stored in clean and well-kept containers.

As I have said in connection with other measures which have come before the Seanad, when setting out to safeguard the public weal, it is necessary sometimes to subject certain sections of the community to some inconvenience. That is the case in relation to the subject of liquid milk. There are people who would complain, those engaged in the sale and distribution of milk, that even the existing regulations press too heavily upon them—those who have to register their dairies, say, under existing legislation before they can engage in selling milk to their customers. I suppose the criterion in all these cases should be that certain sacrifices and certain inconveniences would justify the promotion of the welfare of the community in general.

There is really no fundamental change being made in this measure in relation to the sale and distribution of milk. There are, however, a few things that may require further elucidation. In that regard, I should like to draw attention to Sections 11 and 12. Here there appears to be a departure in the enforcement of the regulations which are envisaged in this measure. Heretofore, the power of exemption has been of a general nature. In other words, there was power of general exemption for milk producers who, in times of scarcity, would be engaged in the sale of milk to the amount of two gallons per day and also for creameries that would engage in the sale of milk up to the amount of five gallons per day. Now it appears that that is being changed and that only in special circumstances will this exemption be granted by the Minister himself, after consultation with the local sanitary authority.

Really I do not know whether there is any great necessity for that change. It appears to me to be what could be described as an extension of bureaucratic control, giving more power of intervention to the Minister for Agriculture, whoever he may be for the time being. Many of us have always been opposed to any extension of bureaucratic control. The same argument applies to Section 12 in regard to creameries engaging in the pasteurisation of milk. Hitherto, there was no obligation upon these to register in order to engage in the sale of pasteurised milk, but now again that position is being altered. It is only if and when special circumstances may arise that this exemption will be granted, and it is the Minister himself, as far as I can judge, who will decide whether these special circumstances justify the exemption. I regard that as a rather drastic change in the law relating to the sale and distribution of milk.

The Minister was good enough to circulate an explanatory memorandum to enable members of the Seanad to grasp the meaning of these various sections, but, even with the aid of the memorandum, I must confess that it is a highly technical and involved measure. As I said at the outset, any measure which involves looking up references to previous Acts is bound to be complicated and difficult to grasp. However, we shall have time, I take it, between now and the Committee Stage, to give it further and better consideration.

Generally speaking, I am in agreement with the terms of the Bill and with the objects which the Minister is setting out to achieve, namely, to make every effort to ensure that milk is sold and delivered under proper hygienic conditions. There is nobody in the country who would find fault with that idea. The only thing, as I said before, is whether the powers which are sought by the Minister in this measure may not be excessive. I take it, however, that the provisions of this Bill are the results, more or less, of what has been found out by experience over the years and I am satisfied therefore that the House would be justified in approving of this measure.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

I would like to start by complimenting the Minister on this memorandum which he has sent out. It seems to me to set a headline for similar memoranda issued in connection with other Bills. It really makes clear what the Bill is intended to do. Sometimes I get the impression that the explanatory memorandum is not as clear as the Bill itself. Here, although it is long, if we take the trouble to read the paragraphs, we find precisely what each section is destined to accomplish. The Bill, as I understand it, but I do not pretend to be an expert, is a good Bill, and represents a tightening up of legislation, a modification in some respects, but on the whole a tightening up of legislation designed to give a better quality of milk to the consumer.

I do not want to go into a lot of detail, but the sort of thing that seems to me to be worthy of praise in the memorandum is, for instance, a note about Section 10, which states:—

"Under Section 24 of the Principal Act it is an offence for a dairyman to sell milk for human consumption unless he is registered under the Act. Experience of the working of the Act has shown that it is desirable that it should also be made an offence for a registered dairyman to buy milk from an unregistered dairyman"

and so on. That is an example of something which may seem a small point, but which, in practice, is going to make for a better quality of milk to the consumer. In relation to Section 11 also, the concession which is now being terminated, and which allowed unregistered dairymen to sell up to two gallons of milk a day, again it is a small point, but it seems to me that that type of concession should indeed be removed.

Mr. Dillon

There is power in areas of emergency to waive that.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

I notice that the Minister retains power to waive it, and I think the retention of that power is also justified and could be valuable. The note on Section 12 makes it clear that provision had been made under the previous Act "that suppliers of milk to creameries holding licences to pasteurise milk for sale for liquid consumption were exempted from registration as dairymen with the local sanitary authority, and from the scope of the regulations under the Principal Act governing the hygienic production and handling of milk, that these exemptions were terminable by Order of the Minister" and so on. That is to be changed. An increasing number of creameries is to be brought under the ordinary application of the Act. Again, I welcome that as an important added safeguard.

Debate adjourned.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.