This matter has already been referred to by the Chair and Senator McHugh understands the position.
Adjournment Debate. - Grants to Vocational Education Committees.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I do.
Just before the Senator commences—I wonder has the Minister for Education been informed about this matter?
I understand there has been an announcement already.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The House has been informed the Minister is not available.
I think it would be rather unrealistic to have the discussion without having the Minister present.
I take it that is a matter for the proposer.
On a point of order—is it not usual when the Minister cannot be present for him to send a deputy? I remember an occasion when the Minister for Education asked the Minister for Health to deputise for him here, and he did so. Has there been any attempt to get any Minister?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
It is a matter solely for the Minister. The Chair has no function in that regard.
The matter of which I have given notice is to call the attention of the Minister for Education to the effect on our educational system of the reduced Government grants to vocational education committees. The immediate cause of putting down this matter is that, since the Seanad last met, the Council of the Vocational Education Association has issued a statement in which it protests against the proposal to continue for a second year the 6 per cent. reduction in the amounts of grants given to the vocational education committees.
The council has pointed out that this means a reduction in the amount of money available to individual committees of amounts ranging from £1,500 to in the neighbourhood of £10,000. The effects seem to me to be as follows, and I am basing what I say on the statement of the Council of the Vocational Education Association: The cuts already in force, and the cut of 6 per cent. already in operation for one year, have forced committees to reduce their facilities, to reduce their schemes and they consider that if this cut is continued for another year, the effects will be catastrophic.
The effects, I think, can be seen in the following way: a further reduction in services will mean a further reduction in teaching staffs and vocational teachers who are not able to secure employment will, it is pretty certain, emigrate. This is the most obvious effect, but there are other effects which I think are no less serious and which would affect, for example, our adult education. I have had some experience of that, both in lecturing for the Royal Dublin Society and in lecturing at Rathmines High School of Commerce and for other bodies, and it seems to me these classes are often full of young people who are anxious to get a wider perspective of their own knowledge and education, and to curtail that service will deny them a facility they should have in this country.
It is also certain that extra-mural courses in the provinces which are usually staffed and run—and sometimes even planned—by vocational education committees—are going to suffer also. I know that is certainly the case in the schemes run by the extra-mural departments of University College, Dublin, and I am quite certain it applies to the schemes run by the extra-mural departments of other colleges. Furthermore, the courses such as those run in conjunction with organisations like Macra na Feirme and the Irish Country-women's Association will suffer by the reductions in the grants.
Another effect which the Vocational Education Association Council has pointed out is the bad effect on productivity. For example, rural science teaching, they consider, will be severely handicapped by this reduction of 6 per cent. continuing for a second year. It is also certain, as I know from talking to a number of technical education teachers, that a number of the specialised courses will have to be scrapped and they will only retain courses which will pay for themselves—in other words, courses where the fees paid by the students enable the scheme to operate. That is certainly a bad thing because specialised courses run for a few students may in fact be economic if we look at them in a long term way. They will not pay for themselves immediately, but the benefit to the country is very often far out of proportion to the cost.
I should like to say a word about the effects of this reduction in grants paid to the vocational education committees. I know something about the effects in Dublin. The general effect will be a reduction of facilities for pupils seeking advancement by acquiring special skills or by widening the range of their own knowledge. Such pupils will be restricted to those who are pursuing immediate practical aims of securing special skills, if we leave out of account for the moment those who are simply seeking to get a wider perspective of their existing knowledge.
Such pupils usually include two categories. You have, on the one hand, some people already in employment with firms in Dublin, young people who want to advance themselves by these courses with their own firms and who consider that they will remain in Ireland and work in Ireland in the same firms. You have another group at the moment consisting of unemployed young men and women who regard this credit squeeze as an interim measure and, consequently, the laying-off of themselves and others as an interim matter and who want to take advantage of or to turn to good account this interim period by studying special courses. It seems to me that both groups, if the facilities are reduced, will be liable to emigrate and that the potential worker may, in fact, meet the potential teacher on the same boat.
The export of vocational teachers is a new thing. For several years, secondary teachers have been emigrating, due to lack of opportunity for promotion and the attraction of better salaries abroad, to Rhodesia, Canada, Australia. Primary teachers started emigrating last year. I understand that about 80 of them went to Canada. According to Mr. Kelleher, General Secretary, I.N.T.O., this is only the beginning and he regards the situation as extremely ominous. If you add to the emigration of primary and secondary teachers what we may, I feel, expect in 1957, namely the initiation of emigration by vocational teachers, a severe strain will be placed upon our educational system.
I should like to mention one feature which I think is very dangerous indeed. I think I am right in assuming that the position of the vocational teacher who is forced to emigrate and who teaches for from five to ten years abroad, or more, and then wishes to return and secure employment at home, if such employment offers, is analogous to that of a secondary teacher in similar circumstances. If a secondary teacher with experience abroad wants to return home, he will not be allowed incremental allowances, or rewards or inducements in recognition of his service abroad. Even if he has spent from five to ten years teaching on the other side of the Border, he will not be allowed for his service there and must begin at the lowest point on the incremental scale. I imagine that the position would be similar with regard to vocational teachers, though I speak subject to correction. If such is the case, then vocational teachers will tend, as have secondary teachers, to become permanent emigrants and that would be an extremely bad thing.
The effect of the cuts, I hold, will be to reduce facilities for vocational and technical education and for adult education. It will reduce the number of people acquiring special skills or a wider education. It will encourage emigration both of pupils and of teachers. I do not think that any vocational system could long stand that strain. The evidence shows that the curtailment of money for the provision of these educational facilities will in the long run prove to be disastrous.
At a time when such questions are discussed pretty openly, I hope I will elicit a reply from the Minister—perhaps a guarantee—if not here, then perhaps from some platform, that he will restore the grants to the full capacity.
Chun na fírinne a rá, ní dóigh liom gurab é seo an ócáid is feárr do dhíospóireacht mar gheall ar an laghdú san méid airgid a bheith le caitheamh ar ghairmoideachas sa tír seo. Is mór an trua é nach raibh caoi againn an cheist seo go léir a chíoradh roimhe seo nuair a bheadh caoi ag an Aire Oideachais a bheith anseo linn chun míniú a thabhairt dúinn i dtaobh na gcuspóirí atá aige i leith an ghairm-oideachais agus chun ceisteanna a chur air faoin scéal go léir.
In my opinion, this debate on the Adjournment has come to us at a very inopportune time—or could it be said the other way, at a very opportune time? It is very difficult to know, as it depends on the point of view of the individual. However, the reduction in the amount to be spent on vocational education is a very important matter. That is why I asked if it would be possible to have either the Minister or somebody representing him present. I think that this move on the part of the Minister for Education to reduce the grants for vocational education was a retrograde step. I have not seen whether or not he has endeavoured to justify that policy here, or in the Dáil, or in any place in the country.
It is true that a good deal of money is being spent on education generally and if we compare the amount being spent here with the amount being spent in other countries, we should have nothing to complain about. I find it very strange that when the Minister sought to effect what he euphemistically, tried to describe as "an economy", it could be found in the long run to be far from that because, as has often been said, the technical school or the vocational school is the poor man's university.
As Senator McHugh said, if it is found—as, no doubt, it will, if this policy is to be continued—that the amount made available in grants will be insufficient for the proper working of the vocational school here, then the only remedy will be to increase the amount of the fees to those who will be enrolling in the vocational education classes. What I find very difficult to understand is why the Senator did not raise this matter before now. I remember there were questions asked from this side about the grants that should be made available to give assistance to this type of education. As I said, it is a pity that we have not an opportunity of having a proper debate on it, with the Minister present or somebody in authority representing him.
May I say a few words as a person on a vocational committee? I agree with Senator McHugh in bringing up this motion, but, like Senator Kissane, I do not think it is a very good time to do so. The matter is a very serious one and I consider it an extremely short-sighted policy that, if economies were to be made in the running of the country, this was the place where the axe should fall. If I may be allowed to be a little facetious, perhaps a more enlightened approach will prevail in the immediate future and this cut may not take place at all.
From quite a lot of experience, I can say that money spent on this branch of education is money extremely well spent. Apart altogether from what Senator Kissane says about its being the poor man's secondary school and university, I think that vocational education, with its extensions in recent times reaching into all sorts of developments, is improving the outlook and prospects for the future of our young people. I repeat that I think it is most lamentably short-sighted; in fact, if I might use the word, I believe it is stupid, to use the axe of economy on this particular branch of education Again, I hope that more enlightened thoughts and people will prevail and that these cuts may not take place.
I regret that the Minister for Education cannot be present. Notice of this matter reached the Clerk of the Seanad only at one o'clock to-day and in the present circumstances it was not possible for the Minister to be here.
With regard to the matter which has been raised by Senator McHugh and with what has been said by the other two Senators who spoke, it should be said, in the first instance, that the axe did not fall in this particular place alone. There was a necessity, owing to the state of the country, for certain economies and anybody who has been a Minister will realise that you cannot dig your heels in and say: "Everybody else can economise, but I will not and my department will not." If I were Minister for Education—and I was Minister for Education for a time—I would naturally argue, as I am sure the Minister for Education did argue, that education was the last thing which should be cut; but, in the circumstances, he did eventually agree to a cut in the grant for vocational schools.
As I say, that was part of a general situation. It must be remembered that when a situation is bad economically, if it cannot be redressed, all services, including educational services and vocational education, are bound to suffer. In this case, vocational education committees were given notice that their grants from Government sources were being cut by, I think, 6 per cent. and they made some efforts to cope with the situation. In some cases, they changed the scale of fees. I was a vocational teacher myself for a time and I am not so sure that it is not desirable that the fees should be reasonable because what people get entirely for nothing they are inclined not to appreciate. They are inclined to pay a very small fee in the month of September and to fade away, as vocational classes frequently do, in the two months leading to Christmas. Certain higher fees were charged. That is not entirely undesirable. There were cases where expansion that had been planned was not immediately carried out.
It should be noted there was no reduction in salaries and no interference with full-time teachers. I have not had any opportunity of getting in touch with the Department, but I am not aware that there has been any emigration amongst vocational teachers. I doubt that there has been. I think it is not quite correct to say that there has been emigration of 80 primary teachers. It is not relevant, but it has been said. I understand the figure is 18 and one of them came back. That is a rather different figure from 80.
On a point of order. Since my accuracy has been questioned, the statement is attributed to Mr. Kelleher, the General Secretary of the Association.
The Minister for Education has made a substantial step forward for vocational teachers and improvement in the educational scheme is not doubted. I think it was my colleague, the late Professor John Marcus O'Sullivan, as Minister for Education, who set up our present vocational schools on the basis they now have. The present Minister has made a substantial step forward by bringing the vocational teachers successfully into a scheme of arbitration. That is something to which they have been looking for a long time. I am not empowered to give any guarantee that this cut will be restored. There is a certain simplicity about Senator McHugh suggesting that the Minister for Education should give a guarantee from some platform that the cut will be restored. If I were the Minister, whether I was going to restore it or not, I would give no guarantee from a platform during an election that it would be restored. Although I have not consulted the Minister, I think I am safe in saying he will give no such guarantee in such a place.
There was a difficult situation which involved economies. Everybody seeks economies in general and everybody is against economies in particular. Senator Mrs. Dowdall went so far as to use rather nasty and, if I may say so, unladylike adjective about this cut, saying the Minister made a stupid cut. The things we all like ourselves and the things we are in contact with are the things we want nobody to touch. However, government is a business which has to be conducted on a particular basis. It was a difficult situation. The policy adopted to meet it has been successful. Our adverse balance of trade has been redressed and is now on an even keel. Education, like every other activity in the country, should benefit by the measures which have been taken. The present Minister for Education can certainly be relied upon to press the claims of vocational education for expansion and for the realisation of the hopes of many people. When the new Government resumes and he is Minister for Education, I think he can be fully trusted to do that.
The Seanad adjourned at 5.20 p.m. sine die.