With regard to Senator Baxter's figure of £95,000,000 the figure of issues so far is £93,500,000, not £95,000,000. Of course, we are committed to £105,000,000 already. That is the difference. It would be a very difficult matter to say what would be required over the next five years for housing, sanitary services, and so on. The Department of Finance are very interested in that question. They would like very much to be able to produce that figure, if only for their own information. If they were able to produce a firm figure, they would not mind sharing the information with everybody else, but there are so many unknown factors. For instance, it is only in the last few years that Dublin and Cork came on the Local Loans Fund. Before that, they did their own borrowing. I might answer another question that arises there. I think it was asked by Senator Burke. As a result of that, the provincial towns are not suffering because the total amount issued by the Local Loans Fund for housing in the three years 1953-54, 1954-55, and 1955-56 was £7.25 million, £6.37 million and £6.56 million, but then, when the Local Loans Fund began to finance both Dublin and Cork, it jumped suddenly and in 1956-57 went to £8.43 million and is estimated at £9.75 million for this year. The fact is that the Local Loans Fund is carrying the financing of the Cork and Dublin Corporations, while at the same time the amount left for all the other urban and rural areas remains about the same. There is no change in it.
Reverting to Senator Baxter's question, there is not only that unknown factor of whether Dublin and Cork might be in a position again to rely on their own borrowing but even in smaller matters, a number of the counties, for instance, have been borrowing for, let us say, vocational schools and in some cases they have found it difficult and they come under the Local Loans Fund, too, and sometimes they go back again to their own borrowing.
The last question, that would give us more trouble in estimating, is the amount of housing needed. Every estimate we get of that appears to differ from the previous estimate, even if it is made by the same authority or the same person, because the conditions change. One item, as an instance: the number of houses surrendered to the Dublin Corporation in the last year or two has been much higher than the number surrendered before that and, therefore, if the Dublin Corporation were making an estimate again now as compared with an estimate they made, let us say, three years ago, their figure would probably be quite different because they would estimate now that they would get 1,000 houses back per year, whereas they got only 300 houses back per year two or three years ago. All these factors change so much that it would be very difficult to make a firm estimate, but, generally speaking, it looks as if most of the housing authorities outside Dublin and Cork expect to have filled their housing needs, as they see them at the present time, in a comparatively short time, let us say, three or four or five years.
The rate of interest charged varies. The rule that was applied there usually, which has not been followed exactly, was that ½ per cent. would be added to the rate at which the Government was getting money, so that, before the recent loan was issued, the rate of interest was 5¾ per cent. The rate of interest now for housing is 6¼ per cent., but we thought it well not to raise the rate under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts because a number of people were negotiating for a loan and had made arrangements and perhaps had gone even so far as to make arrangements to get married on a certain calculation of interest, and so on, and we thought it better to give notice there at least. So, the rate of interest in the case of Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts housing will remain at 5¾ per cent. until 31st March next.
That is not altogether an altruistic move on the part of the Minister for Finance because the Minister for Finance would prefer to see money spent on Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts housing rather than on local authority housing because, from his point of view, it is a cheaper way of disposing of the housing question.
I am asked by both Senator Burke and Senator Roddy whether money will be available. I think so. I do not think we need anticipate any very big change in policy in regard to housing. At the beginning of this year, although our finances were very difficult and it was hard to make ends meet in many ways, we did meet the Minister for Local Government in what he estimated to be the amount of housing that would be required for the year and I think the amount that we allocated for that purpose is quite sufficient to meet any demands that may arise.
Of course, I know that certain Senators would say in answer to that that, of course, if sanction is held up, it is easy to make money hold out, but I do not think sanction is held up for that reason. There may always be other reasons, of course, for the delay of sanction, such as the need to get certain information which the Department of Local Government might require. I can say that as far as my Department is concerned and as far as I am concerned, the Department of Local Government have not been asked to delay housing in order to make the money hold out longer. They have been given the money on the understanding that housing would go on in a normal way and there was no question of delaying things in that way.
Senator Donegan said on behalf of the local authority that the local authority finds it difficult to pay its part of the houses that are built at present cost and that the tenant finds it practically impossible. It may be argued for the tenant that the rent is now very high on account of the increased cost of building, but the Senator will have to remember that the one-third cost which is divided between the local authority and the tenant may create certain difficulties but the two-thirds cost certainly would create difficulties for the State and it would be difficult for the State to consider giving any higher proportion than the State has been giving up to the moment.
It is, of course, a question that will always merit consideration and I have no doubt that the Department of Local Government and the Minister for Local Government will discuss the difficulty of meeting the cost of houses at the present time. How that is to be got over, indeed, I do not know at the moment.
