Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 1957

Vol. 48 No. 13

Tourist Traffic Bill, 1957—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

This Bill is concerned with what is probably correctly described as the most important aspect of the tourist industry, namely, accommodation for tourists. It provides for the renewal of the powers of the Miniister for Industry and Commerce to guarantee loans for the expansion and improvement of hotels and other forms of holiday accommodation and for the development of tourist resorts. That power, which was given by the Tourist Traffic Act, 1952, expired early this year. It is necessary to renew it if it is to be exercisable in the future.

Our investigations of the possibilities of expanding the country's tourist trade indicate that hotel accommodation continues to be the main limiting factor and that it is necessary to induce substantial private investment in the hotel business if this country is to be put in a position to cater for the growing volume of tourist traffic which is anticipated over the next few years. The tourist traffic of the world has undergone a very big increase since the end of the war and it is still growing very rapidly.

The estimates which have been made by the international bodies that study these matters and publish the results of their studies are that the tourist trade of Europe will grow at the rate of 10 per cent. per year and, in the case of tourist traffic from across the Atlantic, these experts predict that the technical improvements in the means of travel, particularly the advent of faster and larger airliners, will provoke a substantial increase in the number of American visitors within the next few years. It is anticipated that that increase will be noticeable next year, particularly because of the coming into operation, as from early in the year, of new lower tourist fares on all the airlines operating on the Atlantic route. It is most important, in relation to the economic problems of the country, that we should get our share of these expected increases in the total tourist traffic, but we cannot hope to do that unless we organise our facilities to cope with the anticipated expansion.

There has been a steady increase in hotel accommodation in this country within the past few years. I am afraid I have to say, however, that the rate of increase was not nearly sufficient to meet our requirements. The problem is one which calls for energetic action, as well as for courage and enterprise, on the part of private interests concerned with hotel developments. So far as the Government are concerned, there is full appreciation of the urgency of the need for energetic action. We are aiming to do all that can reasonably be expected of a Government to facilitate hotel proprietors and other interests in their efforts to expand and improve hotels and other forms of holiday accommodation.

The guaranteeing of loans raised for the purpose of improvements and extensions is the most effective and the most practical method open to the Government to facilitate private investment. Accordingly, under this Bill, it is proposed to extend that power of guaranteeing loans for a further period of five years. That alone is, I think, not sufficient. The Hotel Loans (Guarantee) Scheme introduced in 1952 has not resulted in the expansion which I then anticipated and indicated to the Houses of the Oireachtas as likely. The scheme, for many reasons, has been less productive of results than I had hoped for. Nevertheless, loans totalling £250,000 have been guaranteed. We contemplated a much higher target in 1952, but even that expenditure on hotel expansion and improvement represents some progress.

I do not think progress at that rate will help to solve the problem of inadequate hotel facilities within reasonable time. We must now try to get a considerable acceleration of the rate of hotel construction, if we are not to miss the opportunities which are likely to present themselves during the next four or five years. We have given consideration to that problem and, in so far as it is one that calls for legislation, this Bill achieves that result, but I think that as much more can be done by administrative action without any change in the law.

It is proposed in this Bill to increase from three years to five years the period during which An Bord Fáilte can make grants to hotel proprietors to cover the interest payable on guaranteed loans. That, I think, will induce greater resort to them. The feeling that the loans raised in that way for the extension of hotel accommodation will not involve any burden of interest for the first five years of the loan must have some effect.

The second step—which is, I think, equally important—is to enable An Bord Fáilte to guarantee loans raised for that purpose—the extension or improvement of hotel accommodation otherwise than under ministerial guarantee. Again, the period for which such grants can be given in respect of interest is five years. It is known, I think, that the procedure necessarily involved in the consideration of applications for State guarantees for loans, and in deciding and implementing decisions on such applications, is fairly lengthy. That protraction of procedure has operated, I think, to discourage resort to the scheme. When An Bord Fáilte has the power to guartee loans raised otherwise, that delay can be avoided, if the loans can be raised otherwise—and in many cases hoteliers can get that accommodation from their bankers or otherwise.

In the past, if they sought to get accommodation outside the guaranteed loans scheme, they could not get the benefit of the interest grants. Now they can get that benefit, no matter how they raise the money, provided the money is raised for a purpose which is approved by An Bord Fáilte. I am arranging to have a review made of the administrative procedure, to see whether it is possible—I believe it should be possible—to speed up the consideration of applications and reduce the formalities which have to be complied with, even where the decision is favourable.

Other incentives, numerous and varied, have been offered to hotel proprietors to exert themselves to derive the maximum advantage from the present situation. In addition to these provisions for State guaranteed loans and grants in respect of interest on loans, improvements to hotel premises qualify for a remission of two-thirds of the local rates attributable to the improvement, and there is also now the concession that 10 per cent. of the capital expended in any year on the extension and improvement of hotel accommodation is allowable as a deduction in computing profits for income-tax and corporation profits tax. Hoteliers, of course, derive benefit from the sums given by way of Grant-in-Aid to An Bord Fáilte, which can amount to £500,000 a year. These moneys are available for the publicising of holiday resorts and other tourist development activities.

I should say again that all the concessions and advantages which are at present available should be regarded as temporary in character. It is necessary to say that there can be no guarantee that they can be continued indefinitely. Therefore, it is in their own interest that hotel proprietors and others concerned with aspects of the tourist trade should take advantage of the opportunities while they are there and put in hand as quickly as possible their plans for the construction, improvement and extension of their premises.

The other provisions of this Bill, though perhaps less important than those to which I have referred, are nevertheless of interest. Section 5 provides for the registration of motor hotels by An Bord Fáilte. These institutions, which are now developing in most countries, are called by a variety of names—motels, motor courts, and so forth. It is a form of accommodation which was developed first in the United States but has become increasingly popular on this side of the Atlantic. There are many indications that a growing part of our tourist traffic will take the form of motorists travelling around the country by car or availing of car hire or bus services, for whom that type of accommodation is particularly suitable. It is possible, therefore, that that type of accommodation will tend to develop here; and that being so, it is desirable that An Bord Fáilte should have the same rights of registration, the same control over the use of those names and the same powers of inspection in regard to it, as they have at present in regard to hotels. By bringing this type of premises within the scope of this Bill, they also qualify for the State guaranteed loans scheme and for the interest grants.

The experience of An Bord Fáilte has been that quite a number of visitors come to this country and stay with private families or in boardinghouses, in premises of a kind which is not required under the existing law to be registered with An Bord Fáilte. They have been frequently asked by visitors for information concerning accommodation of that kind that may be available. The board desire to publish a list of persons willing to take visitors on that basis, giving particulars of the accommodation available, whether that accommodation is accompanied by full or partial board. It is proposed to empower the board to collect that information and publish it. There will be, of course, some preliminary examination by the board of the suitability of the premises for listing by them. Of course, no premises will be included in their list except on the application of or with the consent of the proprietor of the premises. It is thought that that facility, available for the type of visitor requiring that kind of accommodation, will help to give satisfaction to them and perhaps increase their numbers.

There are some minor amendments being made in the law relating to registration of hotels and guest-houses. They are dealt with in Sections 6, 7 and 8 of the Bill. None of them is by itself important. All of them arise out of the board's experience of the operation of the original Act. Perhaps I should make it clear that the enactment of this measure does not involve any increased expenditure by the Government. An Bord Fáilte is financed by way of Grant-in-Aid and it is within the limits of the Grant-in-Aid that they will carry out any additional responsibility or functions they are given in this measure.

I have frequently expressed my view that a very substantial increase in the present level of tourist income can be secured by exploiting the potentialities of this country as a holiday centre. Senators are no doubt aware of the fact that we have been advised by external experts who investigated the position, that we can quite confidently hope to double our present tourist income, provided we tackle the enterprise with the necessary skill and enthusiasm. An increase in tourist income would, of course, react very favourably upon our whole economic position and would benefit many sections of the community other than those who are directly engaged in any branch of the tourist industry, or even those who are interested in the supply of goods and services to tourists. The enactment of this Bill will facilitate progress in that direction.

Perhaps I should explain that I have a number of proposals and suggestions relating to the development of the tourist industry under consideration. I would have preferred to have come here with a more comprehensive measure giving effect to such of those proposals and suggestions as I think would be worth while. I was, however, anxious to proceed with this Bill without delay, by reason of the fact that the power to guarantee loans has expired.

While I do not think that up to the present An Bord Fáilte has been impeded in its consideration of applications because of the public assurance I gave that a Bill to continue that power would be presented to the Oireachtas, nevertheless the Bill should not be delayed further. Problems would arise if the completion of the enactment of the Bill were to extend into the next financial year. That, I think, would almost be certain if I were to attempt to delay it in order to incorporate some of the proposals to which I referred.

It is therefore to be considered as very likely that other proposals embodied in, and taking the form of, legislation will come before the Oireachtas probably before the next financial year. I should perhaps make it clear that they will not alter in any way the provisions contained in this Bill relating to guaranteed loans and similar matters so that nobody need hesitate to avail of these provisions now in anticipation that more generous proposals will come later. The proposals we have under consideration deal with other matters and, while they are important, they will not necessarily have the same impact on problems of extending hotel accommodation and so on.

Business suspended at 6.5 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

Mr. McGuire

I should like to say that I very much welcome this Bill. It is, I think, tangible evidence of the State's encouragement of the hotel and tourist industry. We all know that tourism is probably one of our most hopeful industries to which we may look in the future for the bringing in of much needed money, to give us additional invisible imports. It is the industry which, after agriculture, is most capable of expansion.

To-day we are facing a position in which tourism is the most expanding industry in every country. One has only to travel to countries like France and Italy to see the swarms of tourists of all kinds, from the wealthy tourist who was most in evidence in days gone by to the ordinary man in the street who now travels as well as the wealthier man. It is very important that we in this country should equip ourselves to handle this expanding industry. We must endeavour to do it in a business-like and scientific way.

In this connection, I should like to say at the beginning that Bord Fáilte has been a great success. My own experience of Bord Fáilte, in the many contacts I have had with it, both as a businessman and as a member of various committees, is that in that body we have something which is of immense help to this industry. Therefore, I am glad that in this Bill the board are being given extended powers to help them to extend the industry in every way.

When the Minister introduced the Bill in the Dáil—I do not remember whether he said it here or not—he referred to a bottleneck, the bottleneck being that we have not enough accommodation here for the number of tourists we would like to put up. From that, he went on to say he was disappointed, as we all are, with the response which was forthcoming to the offers of help. Of the £5,000,000 offered, only £250,000 has apparently been utilised.

I agree with the Minister that there are these bottlenecks. However, I think there is something which may be responsible for the first bottleneck, that is, that while I do not think hotel traders in this country are bad businessmen or unenterprising, they are up against a certain difficulty. If one is to utilise money and put it into expanding hotels and restaurants, or into building new hotels and restaurants for customers, one must have a reasonable expectancy that those customers will arrive in sufficient numbers to render the expenditure productive. I think one of the bottlenecks responsible for this feeling among hoteliers and people who are expected to spend money in connection with the tourist trade is the means of travel in and out of the country, by air and by sea, and the fact that the facilities here compare badly with other countries. We know, for instance, that Aer Lingus has been a great success, but even working at full capacity, it is not able to carry anything like the number of people who wish to travel in or out of the country. That applies nearly all the year round and not only at the height of the season.

The boats which ply between here and England are also a problem. Frequently it is difficult to get comfortable accommodation on these boats when coming to Ireland and it is almost impossible to get back, when one wants to get back. There is a definite bottleneck in this matter and it is one of the problems we must face if we want to expand our tourist trade.

A possible solution is to extend the season to times of the year when these means of travel are not overcrowded. An Bord Fáilte has given attention to that aspect of the problem by encouraging people to come to festivals and to hold conventions here at off-season times. In that way our travel facilities are being used to greater advantage and with greater spread-over throughout the year.

The quality of the transport available to and from the country does not really stand up, even reasonably well, in comparison with transport facilities available for the Continent both as regards price and comfort. I think something should be done about that. The comparison between getting a motor-car from England to Ireland and from England to the Continent is very unfavourable to us. This is so in regard to price—we know it is a longer sea journey but even allowing for that I gather the fares are very much out of proportion. It is also true in regard to the methods of handling motor-cars coming in and going out of the country. This is a very important factor nowadays when nearly everybody has a car. The methods employed in the case of this country are very much out of date. There is far too much delay in getting a car off the boat and anybody who has experience of sending a car backwards and forwards between Ireland and England finds, I would say in almost 50 per cent. of the cases, some damage is done to the car, to the wings or to the bumpers or some other part of it indicating that the cars are being manhandled.

This is a very common complaint and if we are to have the tourist trade that we should have, it is time we got some sort of boat such as is used between Dover and Calais where the cars are run straight up a ramp on to the boat. In fact you drive your own car on and off practically without anyone else touching the car from one side to the other. These are matters that must be taken into consideration if we are to invite tourists here.

There is another type of tourist, the ordinary man-in-the-street, who has not got a motor-car but who likes to travel. I am glad that in future we shall allow buses in here carrying people who have not got private cars or who do not want to take their own cars over here. Henceforth, they will be able to come in here in buses. They will be taken from their own doors, brought over here, taken round the country and brought back home again. Many people like to do that because it is a comfortable form of travel, mentally and physically. There is very little worry attached to it.

Anybody who has travelled on the Continent has had experience of the immense bus traffic through France and Italy. There are swarms of buses carrying tourists from Germany to France, from France into Germany, from Sweden into Finland. I have seen as many as 20 buses lined up alongside the Finnish boat in Stockholm this year waiting to take tourists through the country. That is the kind of traffic to which I referred earlier, vitally necessary to our hoteliers because its very volume makes them feel that it is worth while improving their hotels and providing proper amenities. After all, unless the flow is there it is not an economic proposition to spend money.

On the question of bringing in people in sufficient numbers, I should like to refer to one matter, though, if it is taken in the wrong way, it may not be a very popular matter. I refer to the bringing in of air traffic through Shannon. We all know that a great deal of money has been put into Shannon. It is a splendid airport and one of which we are all very proud. On the other hand, we have a very fine airport in Dublin, one of the finest in the world. It is fog free; it has ample landing space; there are very few houses around it; and it is a very safe and up-to-date port. Steps should be taken to permit a reasonable number of planes to fly non-stop to Dublin from America. Some of the travel agents in the airlines have told me that a far greater number of people would come here, if they were allowed to fly direct to Dublin.

Shannon will probably always be necessary and used for a large volume of air traffic coming into Ireland and going on to the Continent; but many people would come to Dublin if they could fly direct to Dublin. It is not enough to bring tourists in here. We want to get money from them and they will not spend money around Shannon. One may get a few hundred pounds out of them, but that is not what we want. Air traffic should be encouraged to fly straight into Dublin. It is a shortsighted policy to force your customer into a shop into which he does not really want to go. Those who want to come to Shannon should be encouraged to use Shannon; those who want to come to Dublin should be allowed to come to Dublin.

There is a double motive involved. It has been forecast that there will be a loss of something like £100,000 on Dublin Airport this year. If that be true, it seems a rather shortsighted policy to prevent traffic coming in there, traffic which would make it a paying proposition. Not only would the airport be rendered solvent but an enormous volume of money would come into Dublin through the tourists. I make no secret of the fact that in my own business this year, if it were not for the American tourist trade, my business would have been considerably down on last year. We have held our figures this year because of the dollars we took.

An interesting point is that the tourists this year were not of the Irish-American type. We had tourists this year, many of whom had no connection with this country whatsover. They came here solely because they thought it was a good place to which to come. They said we gave them very good value in all sorts of ways. I was rather surprised to discover they liked our climate. When we apologised for the rain, an American tourist told me not to mind about that; they were coming here to get away from the sun. They liked the shops. They liked the people and they found Dublin an attractive place in which to holiday.

If we could bring more people to Dublin, we would bring more money to Ireland. Oddly enough, there seems to be an anti-Dublin complex amongst some elements at any rate. Some would almost prefer that we had no tourists at all rather than that they should visit Dublin and spend their money there. That is wrong. No matter where we get the money, it is important that we should get it.

We should not bring tourists here merely to show them our beautiful scenery. The real object is to get them to spend money. It is all very nice to bring them to see Glendalough and let them go home with a good impression but, while they may go home with a good impression, we want to see a good impression of their money in our banks and in our businesses. I shall give an illustration of what I mean. We have had several liners calling here in recent years. One luxury liner calls every year. Large numbers of tourists are brought in under one auspice or another. Very often, our travel authorities think they are doing a wonderful thing by putting these tourists into buses and whisking them off on the only free day they have down to Glendalough where they spend 2/4 on postcards of St. Kevin's Bed, or whatever it happens to be, and they are given very little chance of spending money where it might do more good. Now, the French will always bring you to a place where you can spend money in every possible direction. They will bring you in buses to Versailles and, if you want to go somewhere else, the buses will not take you there; you will have to engage a taxi and the taxi will cost you 2,000 francs. Incidentally, you get the very worst rate of exchange when you are changing your English money into French francs.

I do not want to be taken as suggesting that we should exploit tourists. We must not exploit our tourists, but we must get as much as we can out of them and, in return, we must give them the best value we can for their money. That aspect should be carefully studied. It may surprise people to know that tourists find Dublin a very attractive city. They find our shops attractive, with a far wider range of better goods at lower prices than elsewhere. There are many commodities here which are astonishingly cheap as compared with the Continent.

Some may think that I am over-emphasising Dublin. When I speak of Dublin, I am really speaking of the other cities and towns also to which tourists normally come, where goods are attractive and cheap and can compare with practically any part of the world. I have had proof of that in my own business because of the number of Americans and British who are now regular postal customers of ours. I know that applies, too, in other businesses, especially those businesses which cater for tourists and specialise in that particular trade. Tourism is something which has to be dealt with in a special way. Goods must be bought specially for the tourist trade and they must be presented and publicised so as to attract tourists.

An Cathaoirleach

I think Dublin has been sufficiently advertised by now.

Mr. McGuire

I should not like it to be said that I was advertising Dublin only. My remarks apply equally to Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford and all our other cities and towns. There have been complaints that our hotels have not availed of the money provided under this Bill, but I should like to pay tribute to some of the hotels which have been set up here in recent years and to the improvements that have been made in others. The same applies to Cork. Cork has a number of hotels which are second to none. That has all happened in the past few years and is greatly due to the activities of Bord Fáilte and Bills such as this.

I should not like to speak on anything in connection with the tourist industry without mentioning something that we very often forget to mention. I refer to our museums and other institutions of different kinds, such as our National Gallery, which is known all over the world as a first-class gallery. It has a small but first-class collection. We also have the Municipal Gallery. The only tragedy about these places—I have in mind also the museums in Waterford, Limerick and Cork—is that we do not refer to them often enough. In every country in the world, one of the main attractions offered to tourists is the visit to the local museum, and so on. Very often, our tourists are not even informed that such places exist in Dublin, although we have institutions that can take their place with those in every city in the world.

On the question of hotels, if we are to bring people here, there is plenty of room for improvement in the country and city hotels. One of the curses of our country is that the emphasis in our hotels is on the bar. We have first-rate bars and lounges, but you will find that the rest of the house is on a declining scale, ending up with the lavatory which is very often, I am sorry to say, the worst feature of the house. It is a very bad reflection on any country that its toilet amenities are not good and I suggest that there is great room for improvement in that branch of our hotel business.

Further in relation to our hotels, although again we have the best food in the world in the form of meat, potatoes and vegetables of all kinds, very little care or taste is shown in the presentation of that food. I was astonished to go down to a country hotel in a well-known tourist area last year and to find that, in the middle of the vegetable season, we were offered tinned peas which were the only vegetable on the menu. I had some English people with me and we were looking forward to the very nice fresh peas we were going to have. Incidentally, one Friday, I was in another well-known hotel—I will not mention what part of Ireland it was but it was not Dublin —I was with some English people again and they said: "Now we are at a seaside place. I am sure we can get lovely fish." They asked me would I find out from the hotel manager what fish was being served that night. We were visualising lobster, and so on. When I went down, the hall porter said: "There is plaice." That is all there was. They may seem little things but they are big things. We all know when people are on holidays one of the best things in the day is the meal. They look forward to going into a lunch or dinner to find out what is on the menu. If they find that it is plaice or tinned peas, that is a bad mark for us. It takes very little energy or imagination to improve that situation.

Another fact is that we do not sufficiently advertise our sporting events to our visitors. If there is one thing we have in this country, it is a great variety of sporting fixtures in every part of Ireland every Saturday and practically every other day as well. We need not mention racing because it is known, but in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and many other places there are thousands of sporting events every Saturday afternoon, and I think I am right in saying that if you go into any Dublin hotel or any hotel in the country, you will not see a reference to a single sporting event on any of the boards for the benefit of tourists. That is something which could be very much exploited. The one thing which people complain about when they come to Ireland is having nothing to do. There is plenty to do if we would only bring it to the people's notice.

Finally, I should like to refer to the matter of souvenirs. Souvenirs have improved greatly in recent years. Instead of looking upon souvenirs as being a little present from Tramore, made in Japan, or even made in Ireland—a babóg—we have come to realise that there is big money in other goods. We are now purchasing boxes full of expensive linen, sheets, and so on, and presenting them in a souvenir manner. There is practically nothing we make in this country that could not be presented as a souvenir. Instead of thinking of souvenirs in terms of little "diddley" things, we have come to realise the real potentialities of this business. Some of our Irish manufacturers are already packaging their goods with a view to attracting tourists. If that becomes more widespread, not only will we sell goods to the tourist trade, but we will be able to build up further export trade from follow-up orders not only from people who have been visiting here but from the people to whom they show these goods at home.

I feel the State is doing its best in regard to tourism and it is up to the people in the tourist business, both private enterprise and the local authorities, to take full advantage of this Bill to improve the amenities offered to tourists and to avail of the opportunities thus created of earning money from these tourists.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

The field covered by this Bill is strictly limited and I shall endeavour to confine myself, as far as possible, to it much as I should like to wander over the whole field of tourist development policy because I am very interested in it. I welcome this Bill. I am very glad that the Minister did not wait to include in it all the other ideas, to which he referred during his address here to-day, because there are enough provisions in this Bill to get the hoteliers, the people generally concerned, interested and to waken them up to a realisation of the valuable aid which the State is giving to make the tourist industry the best money making industry in the country.

I understand that there are a big number of applications for these grants awaiting decision and, therefore, I regard the Bill as one of some urgency. The guaranteed loan scheme, to which the Minister referred, is certainly one of the best features in the Bill and the extension of the period is very welcome. However, I think the most satisfactory part of his speech was his expressed intention to review the administrative procedure, to see whether decisions on these applications could not be speeded up and red tape eliminated. I am afraid the failure of hoteliers to take advantage, to a greater extent than they did, of the money available may, in one way, have been due to the feeling that got abroad that it was a tremendous job to break through the administrative barrier before one could get to the actual cash. When the Minister is reviewing the administrative procedure, the aim should be to make it as simple for a solvent business man to get one of these loans, as it used to be for a solvent business man, at one time, to walk into a bank and get an overdraft.

Senator McGuire referred to the bottlenecks. One of the greatest bottlenecks is the short duration of our tourist season. It is really only a ten weeks' season at present—July and August the peak period with the last week in June and the first week in September tailing on at both ends. A tribute is due to Bord Fáilte, and to its promotions branch in particular, for their efforts to bring international conferences here during the off-season. Senators who have received their News Letter and read it will have been as pleased as I was to note that of the ten international conferences announced so far for 1958, nine are scheduled for April, June and September, which might be described as the off-season period.

Bord Fáilte is doing a good job but it can do better. It should devote particular attention to the encourment of spring and late summer holidays. In this connection it has always struck me that a system which obtains in many parts of England is worthy of investigation by Bord Fáilte. We can undoubtedly profit from the experience of our nearest neighbours in that regard. In England a large trade has been built up by various seaside resorts, many of them in the South of England, which have special holidays covering April, May, June, September and up to October. They cater particularly for one class of people, those on fixed incomes, whose purses are limited, but who can go on holidays at any time and who can make a big difference between the high season trade of July and August, when many civil servants and business executives have to take their holidays. That is the difference between this type of trade which English seaside resorts have capitalised and the type I am referring to now.

The English people are friendly. They are anxious to come to a country like this here where they can get good food, good accommodation at reasonable rates and where they can see happy, smiling people. I have no doubt that, with an effort, we can get a good slice of this trade, provided the board can arrange for a greater cut in hotel charges, transport and entertainments. This is not as revolutionary a proposal as it sounds. I should like to illustrate this point by a scheme which came to my attention which is operating in the South of England, from May 2nd to June 13th, and from September 13th to October 4th.

It is operated by an hotel, guest house and caterers' association of a southern municipality. There is a fixed charge in all establishments participating in the scheme. It is not confined to guest-houses. Many hotels are listed in this scheme. The starting rate for accommodation during the first fortnight is £3 15s. per week. That is a considerable cut. It is £4 a week in the second part and £4 to £5 in the first week of June. From September the 13th to September the 20th the fixed charge is £4 5s. per week and for the last fortnight in September, and up to October, £3 15s. per week. This charge includes accommodation, with three meals comprising breakfast, midday dinner and high tea. It is a co-operative effort in this municipality and it has paid good dividends in the off-season.

The town council has co-operated to a great extent, putting on special entertainments for these people, giving reduced rates for deck chairs for concerts and arranging tours with local bus companies. They have gone out of their way to make things pleasant for this class of people, to make them feel welcome with their limited amount of money. Since they have a limited amount of money, this town wants to get as much of it as it can. The proof of its success is that the numbers visiting this resort in spring and autumn have steadily increased each year since the inception of the scheme.

As I have said, we can get a good slice of this trade though I fear the low rates I have quoted may be received with disdain by some people who think a successful business cannot be operated on a small margin of profit. This municipality and this hotel, guest house, and caterers' association have demonstrated for a number of years that it can be done. All the income which this town gets from this scheme is definitely additional income and it would make a substantial contribution to our tourist revenue if we could attract some of it here during the period I have mentioned. Hoteliers, guest house owners, cinemas and C.I.E. would get an extra profit, no matter how small, and the country would benefit by the free publicity which these people would give to it when they go home.

Senator McGuire also referred to another bottleneck which, I think, is one of the outstanding causes of our failure to extend the tourist season in May and June. There is no doubt whatever that anybody who knows the Midlands of England, and who has contact with the workers there, knows that the lack of a day boat on the Holyhead-Dún Laoghaire route has been the gravest handicap to the extension of the tourist trade from that area in May and June. While I am very enthusiastic about getting all the Americans we can get, and while I believe there is a big potential to be developed in the United States, and probably on the Continent as well, we must remember that there is a market at our doors not tapped to the extent it should and could be.

We must remember also that 70 out of every 100 people coming to this part of Ireland come by boat. They do not all travel by air. The dreadful ordeal of having to get into that boat in Holy-head in May and June, after travelling eight hours from Euston, maybe five hours from Manchester or six hours from Sheffield, has been instrumental in keeping quite a number of the people about whom I spoke—older people who could take their holidays at any time—away from here during the off-season.

Another thing I have heard in talks with the proprietors of hotels is that every year they get a considerable number of bookings for June, and when the prospective visitors, particularly from the Midlands of England, learn that the day sailing does not begin until July, they usually ask for a later date. They cannot be accommodated, so the booking is lost and another room becomes available in June.

There is another class of people who could also be catered for under this idea of extending holidays in June. Those are the people who want to avoid the peak rush during July and August. We are certainly losing quite an amount of that traffic by the absence of the daylight sailing of which I spoke. There are daylight sailings, two sailings a day, from Liverpool to Landudno, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Bangor beginning on Easter Sunday every year. It beats me why the British Railways people insist that they cannot put a day boat on here from the 1st May and that it would not pay. There are also daylight sailings from Liverpool and Heysham to the Isle of Man beginning in Easter and winding up in October.

Before any real extension of the tourist season into May, June and July is achieved on a permanent basis, this transport question will have to be tackled. The reason I am so insistent on concentrating to a great extent on the English market is that, from a study of the statistics of visitors here and from speaking to a large number of them during the summer season, I estimate that the average English visitor spends from £20 to £25 during his holiday period here, and that is in cash, independent of travel and accommodation. I am quite satisfied that people would much prefer to come here than to go to the Continent where all types of difficulties have arisen for them, as anybody who reads the complaints in English Sunday newspapers will see.

There is another very serious bottleneck, to which the Minister and Senator McGuire referred, and that is the inadequacy of hotel accommodation. Although great strides have been made in the last five or six years, particularly since the end of the war, we have not got the number of bedrooms which would enable us to become a real tourist playground on the same lines as Switzerland, Norway and Belgium.

There is one serious matter to which Bord Fáilte should devote attention. It is the question of single accommodation. The demand for single accommodation in this country, and in England, too, incidentally, is far in excess of the rooms available. While a hotelier will give a double room during the early and late season, he has to refuse in the high season. Thus, for about ten weeks, this big tourist potential has to go elsewhere, and by elsewhere I mean some other country.

If the hotelier builds single accommodation, he is faced with the cost of furnishing, which is the same as for a double room, and he gets only half the income. Worse than that, he gets a rating increase from his local council which takes no account of the short period during which the single room will be in use. I am convinced that if we are to get a grip on the young men and women who want single rooms and on the older people who want to be accommodated here, something must be done to remedy this position and to encourage hoteliers to add single room accommodation to their premises.

I do not know what inducements could be given. Perhaps under some later Bill the Minister may be able to provide for it. I would certainly suggest that the possibility of a special rate on extensions of hotels devoted solely to single accommodation should be considered to see whether it is possible to induce hoteliers to fill that void which exists at present and which, as I say, is depriving us of this tremendous potential of single people in June, July and August. I feel that this 50 per cent. rate cut, for instance, if it could be arranged with local authorities, for buildings devoted solely to single accommodation would help the local authorities in this way. Although they would only get half a loaf instead of none, still the hotelier would get an inducement to provide for an assured trade of young people who want to come here and who will get an opportunity of paying us a visit which is denied to them now.

One hotelier to whom I spoke told me, for example, that all his single accommodation for the season was booked up in February and that a large number of applications from that on had to be turned down. He told me that this involves the loss of a double and single room in many cases because many applications were from a couple with an adult son or daughter.

I think I have gone pretty wide in referring to these matters but, before I conclude, I should like to mention Section 9. This provides that Bord Fáilte will now produce a list of guest houses which are not registered and are not in the official list of guest houses in the book issued by the board each year. I am very seriously perturbed about this proposal because the Bord Fáilte booklet has gone all over the world. Because of its veracity and because of the intensive examination and effort made by the board to ensure that premises are up to standard, it is now accepted, particularly by English visitors, as a sort of bible. If there is to be another and separate list issued by the same board, containing guest houses which are not up to the standard of those contained in the book, I am afraid that, no matter what precautions are taken by Bord Fáilte or the Minister, there will be confusion and there will be doubts cast on the bona fides of the real book.

I think Bord Fáilte would be well advised not to go into this but to adopt the procedure adopted in many cross-Channel and continental resorts where a municipal council gets out a list of approved guest houses and lodging houses which they have examined. This list may be obtained from the municipal council of the town concerned, not from the official tourist board, as far as I can make out. If that were done, it would ensure that people who write to Bord Fáilte for their annual book containing the names of accredited and registered hotels would have no more doubts in the future than they had in the past. I hope that serious consideration will be given to that before the board finally decides to adopt it.

Professor Quinlan

I, too, wish to join in welcoming this Bill. I note with particular interest the statement by the Minister that he is considering further proposals and that this may give rise to future legislation. I should hope that, perhaps, the Seanad might in some way or other be able to set up a Select Committee to help on this. We would be far more helpful to the Minister as a Select Committee. Those of us who are new to the Seanad feel we would like to make some positive contribution. We have heard of the great work done by house committees, both in England and in America, and perhaps we here in the Seanad could do something like that. It does seem that a general review of the tourist position is called for and I think there is sufficient ability in this House to make a positive contribution on that aspect.

Turning to the Bill itself, I note that the amount of interest provided is £75,000. That, according to my calculation, means a capital expenditure of, at most, £1,500,000. That seems remarkably little, considering the prize at which we are aiming. Tourism is to-day our second industry and the income from it was estimated last year, I think, at £30,000,000. We are all in agreement with the Minister when he says that could easily be doubled, if we made a determined effort. If we are shooting for a prize of £30,000,000 a year, an investment of £1,500,000 is very little. Also, the number of loans guaranteed by the Government over the past five years amounted to only £250,000. That seems a pitiable sum. In other words, it does seem that if this is a big money business, we will have to expend big money to get big money.

Then, of course, tourism, being our second industry, we have got to be unique. We have got to do something that our competitors cannot do. It is not sufficient just to copy what they do in other parts. Right here, I think we can wed our major industry, agriculture, to our second industry, tourism, and let them both help each other along. We have got to be unique. We have got to do something imaginative in both.

I suggest that at present we are having difficulty marketing some of our agricultural produce, but we will have far more surpluses, we hope, in agriculture in the future and, therefore, our marketing difficulties will be so much greater. Why not then run some type of sweepstake on our Irish produce sold abroad, the prizes to be free holidays in Ireland? These could very largely be directed, as Senator Mullins suggested, into the off season periods. Every lb. of produce sold abroad, a pound of bacon or whatever we sell, could very well carry a number. You could have regional draws both in England and elsewhere and let the prizes be holidays in Ireland, and not holidays for one. We should strive for family tourist parties and let the holidays embrace the whole family. We could spend big money on that and it would serve to popularise our agricultural produce and help considerably to expand our tourist industry.

In relation to our tourist industry, I believe we have got to be unique. We have got to strike out and examine what are our characteristics here. We find that, as a nation, we are a family people with a very strong Christian heritage of which we are proud. Has any real effort been made, in our approach to tourism, to capitalise on those assets, to appeal to the family groups? There are several types of tourism we would not welcome here, but we would do a service to ourselves and the world at large by concentrating largely upon family groups.

We have another asset here as well. We are a rural people. We have our farms. We can examine the tourist picture in America where we see they put up mock farms—what they call "dude ranches". In those places, they have their tourist attractions for the tired city people. They rank as major attractions in the United States to-day. We have our farms here and we have a great increase in amenities, due to the spread of rural electrification, the provision of running water and other amenities. The time is ripe for launching out on a full-scale development of family farm holidays, because, after all, a short season does not affect the farm. In fact, May and September in many ways are the most delightful months on the farm. There is nothing for the young child to compare with the magic of the animals he can find on the farm. I have seen that illustrated in the case of relatives of ours who came for holidays at Easter from London. It was almost impossible to get them to go back. I am sure that they in turn will speak of that to their children and create the type of chain reaction we want to boost our tourist trade.

In addition, the development of family farm holidays would, perhaps, go a long way towards solving another pressing problem we have on the farm at present, that is, providing something to do for the young girls at home. Modern agriculture is pushing the young women largely back into the homes. The result is that, having little to do in the homes, they are leaving the land and, consequently, it is very difficult for young farmers to get wives. I believe that type of thing could be developed, the industry that would be primarily the industry of the farmer's daughter, an industry which would encourage her to learn everything about housekeeping and which would give her that exactness and precision which would do much for the success of the farm afterwards.

I do believe the time has come when, if we want to get into the tourist business, we have got to be imaginative. Remember always that if you aim at the ditch, you will always get the ditch, but if you aim at a star, you may go miles higher.

Mr. Baxter

This is a small Bill but it is of major importance and should be so regarded by the House and the country. There is a good deal that is psychological in trying to make this country a tourist resort. The majority of people generally have doubts about it. They have come down on neither one side not the other as yet. The idea has to be sold to the people of Ireland as well as abroad. Undoubtedly there is much in this country to commend itself to the taste of the tourist. The Minister's proposals in this measure can vitally influence the position in regard to tourism in the future.

I want to say a word or two about the proposals in regard to loans for reconstruction or building in connection with the provision of accommodation for tourists. I have not a great deal of experience of this matter. I have just a little. I would suggest that, to make a success of tourism, it is vitally important to interest young people in providing the accommodation required and every possible facility should be placed at their disposal, if young people are prepared to embark on the enterprise of selling a service to tourists.

When applications are being examined, the character and the industry of the people who will embark on this enterprise should be investigated. That is a far greater security for the repayment of loans than the size of the building, the amount of the original capital spent, or anything like that. We really want the young people to engage in this enterprise because they will bring fresh minds into the business and are not tied to old, orthodox practices. Their minds are open and they would be prepared to embrace new ideas borrowed from abroad or developed out of practices at home. I would strongly urge on the Minister that the character of the borrowers should be a major consideration. People who are prepared to cast their bread on the waters and to borrow, if they are able to get security through the Minister's administration, should get the opportunity.

The people of the country can make a major contribution to the development of this industry. In any country there is nothing more interesting than its people. Foreigners say that the people of Ireland are more interesting and more attractive than the people of most other countries. That is because our people are simple and natural and have no artificial airs or graces. If they can be their intelligent selves, they are very attractive to the foreigner.

In certain quarters and by certain individuals there is a desire to decry the country. I think that is awful. We have our faults. There are quite a number of things wrong with the country that we have been unable so far to set right but we should look at the rest of the world and ask ourselves how much better it is. We shall find it is not half as good. We ought to emphasise that point instead of grumbling and complaining. One thing people should learn to do is to stop talking about the rain. Whenever one meets an Irish man or woman and says anything about the weather, the answer is: "I hope it will not rain." That is a complex than can be created for the foreigner who may come from a part of the world where rain is not so unacceptable. That is a very important consideration. I am sure Senator McGuire will agree with me.

People who come to this country and who drive in buses or cars along our highways, which can compare very favourably with those anywhere else, should be able to see what is across the hedges. I would urge of members of local authorities here and on the Minister to try to impress on local authorities the importance of letting the tourist see the field behind the hedge. There is a conspiracy on the part of thousands of farmers in this country to ensure that nobody will see beyond the ditch along the road. That is a great mistake. It is only in this country that that happens. It certainly is not permitted in any country on the Continent where I have been. Even from the point of view of the farmer, it would be a good thing to cut down the hedges and allow the wind and the sun in. It would be enlightening also for foreigners if they could see more of our green countryside. I am sure everybody will welcome the Minister's proposals and wish him success in his efforts.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

Níil agamsa ach fíor-bheagáin le rá ar an mBille seo, tá an oiread sin ráite ag Seanadóirí eile annso agus, fé mar a dheineadarsan, cuirim fáilte roimh an Bille agus traosluighim leis an Aire agus le Bord Fáilte mar gheall ar an méid atá déanta acu ar son cuartaíochta sa tír seo.

Cé go bhfuil daoine ag gearáin nach bhfuilmid ag dul ar aghaidh tapaidh go leor, maidir liom féin, is dóigh liom go bhfuil cuid mhaith déanta taobh istigh de no blianta a bhfuilmid ag obair. Ní féidir linn bheith chómh mór chun cinn le tíortha eile a bhfuil tréimhse fhada caite acu ag gabháil don tionscail sin. Tá ceist airgid anseo leis. Tá cúrsaí airgid i mbun agus i mbarr gach iarracht a dheinimid anseo agus, cé go bhfuil deontasaí le fáil nó iasachtaí airgid gan ús le fáil ag lucht tithe ósta, agus mar sin de, beidh costas mór orthu féin leis agus is leasc lena lán acu an costas mór sin a thógaint orthu féin. Dá bhféadfaí rud éigin a dhéanamh chun iad do spreagadh chun obair níos fearr a dhénamh chun na tithe ósta a chur in oiriuint, ba mhór an rud é. Is dóigh liom gurb é an tslí is fearr chuige sin ná coiste áitiúil a bheith ins gach áit cuartaíochta sa tír ag spreagadh chun gnímh na daoine atá i mbun tithe ósta san áit.

I have not very much to say in connection with this Bill, after all that has been said by the other speakers. As Senator Baxter pointed out, it is not a large Bill but it is important from the point of view of continuing the policy of making money available to people engaged in our tourist industry—to hoteliers and such people to provide the necessary accommodation for visitors. The difficulty I see is that it is rather difficult for An Bord Fáilte to deal with individual hoteliers with a view to getting the necessary accommodation. It might be a good idea if An Bord Fáilte had some authoritative bodies such as a local committee with which to deal in connection with the provision of improved hotel facilities for visitors.

Everybody knows that community effort generally produces better results than individual effort. I rather think that if An Bord Fáilte could have the people in the tourist centres organised through local committees it might be a good way of getting the business done. A civic pride would then be awakened in these places. People would become more aware of their duties as regards the improvement of tourist centres from the point of view of hotel accommodation and amenities generally.

As I am referring to An Bord Fáilte, I might say that I consider that that body should be highly commended for the way in which they have tackled the business so far. Furthermore the manner in which they get out this type of brochure from time to time is indicative of their imagination and business acumen. They have done it very well. If they got more co-operation from people engaged in the tourist industry I think better results would follow. They have given a very good slant to the publicity end of the tourist business.

Many things have been said and many suggestions have been made here as to how our tourist industry can be improved. I suppose there is room for improvement but, at the same time, we must remember that, in comparison with outside countries—countries on the Continent of Europe such as Switzerland—we have a lot of leeway to make up. That is understandable because Switzerland and other countries were in a position to organise their tourist industry during the past couple of centuries when we had no such opportunity. This State is comparatively young and it is only as the years go by that we shall learn from experience how to improve our tourist industry. It is capable of much improvement, but we cannot expect to do things too quickly.

Senator Baxter suggested that we should present ourselves to outsiders as we are. That is right. We should show visitors that we have a language and a culture of our own. That would be a very good policy and I should be very much in favour of it.

When opening the debate, the Minister said that the most important aspect of tourism is hotel accommodation. There is no doubt about that. Not alone is hotel accommodation a very important aspect of this matter but there is also the question of the attention given to visitors. A lot depends on that. Every visitor is a publicity agent for this country. Unless he or she gets proper treatment when he or she comes here then it is just too bad. I realise that the position has greatly improved from bygone years. An Bord Fáilte has done a very good job. Let us hope that, with the co-operation of the people engaged in the tourist industry, they will be able to do an even better job.

Mr. Lenihan

The primary purpose of the Bill before us is, one might say, financial. It is to extend the period of interest-free loans to five years so that no interest is paid by a borrower for that period on a guaranteed loan through any insurance corporation, bank or direct from An Bord Fáilte itself. That is an admirable and welcome extension of the financial facilities available under the Tourist Traffic Act, 1952.

This debate has broadened out and included some other matters which are not strictly relevant to the Bill. In particular, mention was made of the importance of extending the tourist season. I want to refer to one particular aspect in that connection which could be encouraged by An Bord Fáilte and which, to a certain extent, is being encouraged. I refer to improving the shooting and fishing facilities available to tourists. In that respect, I should like to compliment the sporting section of An Bord Fáilte. They have been doing a very good job of work in recent years in co-operation with the Inland Fisheries Trust. That section of An Bord Fáilte has done considerable work along the River Shannon and its tributaries in encouraging the coarse fishing business which has a tremendous potential.

It was estimated that, last year, about 10,000 English working-class visitors came to this country and spent anything from £30 to £50 each in fishing for pike, perch and roach in the coarse-fishing areas of the Midlands. That works out, already, at an industry worth from £300,000 to £500,000. That coarse-fishing development (1) extends the season at each end—it can operate from April to October—and (2) is not dependent on the weather. Such visitors are not concerned about sunshine but about fish. They are not a very fussy type. I am inclined to think that Section 9 of the Bill has that type of industry in mind, when it mentions that the board may publish lists of unregistered premises.

I would imagine that what is intended in that section is that a list of boarding houses and houses with modest but reasonably clean accommodation, could be furnished to the board by local development companies and local authorities and would be available by the board for any body of anglers in Britain who may have need of such accommodation, in small towns such as Ballinasloe, Athlone or Banagher, and they would be able to partake of the boarding house facilities during their stay. That is a very admirable scheme of development, which the sporting section of an Bord Fáilte has concentrated on in recent years and which has proved very remunerative. That development, along with the development by the Inland Fisheries Trust, improving other lakes for trout and salmon fishing, is a very good one. We could have luxury tourists for the salmon and trout fishing in the West of Ireland for a period of six months extending the tourist season beyond the months of July and August.

In that connection, there is something undesirable in the fact that many of these big salmon rights in the West of Ireland, in Mayo and Galway, have recently been passing from one private millionaire's hands to another private millionaire's hands. There is no statutory provision for the State to interfere and acquire such salmon rights, to develop them in the national interest. I think they could be developed considerably and restocked and improved, and facilities made available for the encouragement of the luxury type of American tourist, in particular, who is very keen on this type of salmon fishing.

Another type of sport is shooting, which is even better, since it operates for the six non-season months, all through the winter months, roughly from August until the following March. At the moment in this country there is no body available, no statutory body which gives any assistance towards the preservation of game, the clearing of vermin or anything of that nature. Any work which is done is done entirely by voluntary gun clubs up and down the country, who receive no assistance whatever. There are large areas of shooting rights in the hands of the Land Commission which are completely neglected, and no attempt has been made to develop them by advertising them as something which could be utilised by tourists here.

Similarly, no attempt has been made to assist these gun clubs to improve and preserve ordinary private shooting rights. As I have said, the Inland Fisheries Trust and An Bord Fáilte have set an admirable headline of co-operation in the development of trout and salmon fishing. It is an ideal working arrangement in that the Inland Fisheries Trust operates as a subsidiary to local organisations. There is no such thing as that available in the case of shooting.

I mention those two sports, shooting and fishing, and I divide fishing into luxury fishing and rough fishing, as a desirable type of development which would attract tourists from outside beyond the months of July and August. There is really scope in that direction and the type of tourist we would bring by virtue of such development would be the tourist who would not mind any shortcomings in our weather and who would not be a very fussy tourist. He would be primarily concerned with his sport and if we had the sport he would come. I know that is outside the ambit of the Bill before us.

I hope this Bill will make a move in one rather unfortunate matter, in that only £250,000 was borrowed over the past years under the facilities offered by the Tourist Traffic Act of 1952. I hope the smoothing of the administrative procedure by which loans are made available and the increased attractiveness of them, will operate as an inducement to our hoteliers to make greater avail of the provisions under this Bill.

Mr. J.L. O'Sullivan

There is one point I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister and of the board, that is, that many of our small towns and villages along the cost have not yet installed water or sewerage schemes. Where they are about to be installed, the Minister should use his influence with the Departments concerned to hurry up those schemes. As everybody is aware, they are indispensable to tourism. Many such schemes are being initiated at present by the local authorities and I hope they will get some priority when the occasion arises.

Professor Stanford

Senator McGuire referred to the museums as a valuable asset in encouraging tourists. He is quite right, of course, there. He said that the only tragedy with regard to those museums was the lack of publicity about them. I wish that were so. Unhappily, there is another tragedy and a very serious one, which perhaps will be referred to later on in this House in subsequent sittings, that is, the tragedy of the present state of the museums in the capital city of Ireland. I know this is not the place or the time to develop that, but I should like to draw the attention of the Minister, who is a progressive statesman in these matters, to the fact that these two great assets of our tourist traffic in Ireland, the Natural History Museum and the Archæological Museum, are not worthy of our capital city. That applies in particular to the Natural History Museum.

We had a very large conference in this city last September, that of the British Association; and it was very sad for many of our scientists in Dublin that when members of that great and influential association went to see our Natural History Museum, they were bound to be gravely disappointed. I am not going to embark on this theme at this stage—I hope to do so later on—but I will say that I hope that the Minister, who has a genuine interest in promoting the tourist trade, if he has any say in the ultimate decision about our museums —which will have to come very soon— will be on the side of progress in this matter. It is very sad, indeed, that our museums at the moment, especially the Natural History Museum, are in a very much worse state than they were 40 years ago. I simply appeal to the Minister, in the interests of tourism, to support an improvement in those tourist aspects.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

I should like to say something on this last point first, that is, that, in thinking about the Natural History Museum, we might recognise that these Houses of Parliament of ours are largely responsible for the cramped conditions in the museum. By force of circumstances, we have encroached upon space which could all have been well used by them. I am afraid we have had to link their problems rather with the problems of our own space economy in our own building here. In that sense, we are doubly responsible, and therefore we ought doubly to support what Senator Stanford has just said.

On the whole tourist traffic, I think we all must be acutely aware of the big contribution made to our economy by tourists. We are familiar with the figures, and we realise that we would find it very hard to get on without this revenue. The contribution is enormous, and perhaps even bigger than what can be measured. Nevertheless, I should like to strike a note of caution, to some extent, because I do not think we ought to get ourselves into a frame of mind where we are laying proportionately too great an emphasis upon Ireland as a tourist industry centre. The tourist industry should always be regarded as an adjunct, and should never get itself into the position of being regarded as a central industry here.

Welcoming and preparing for tourists, taking them around the country and so on, is in a sense, on the national scale, like taking in lodgers. I do not think that taking in lodgers on a national scale is the sort of thing, no matter how beautiful our country, that we ought to regard as being permanently one of our major industries. because essentially, of course, it is rather an unproductive industry. I feel that our other industries and our agriculture will make a more real contribution to the good of the community than by taking in lodgers on a national scale. The effect on our economy of Ireland's becoming a kind of gigantic lodging-house would not be good. It would encourage a number of artificial values and perhaps inflate unduly the importance of certain aspects of our life, if we tended too much to gear our economy towards the satisfaction of holiday needs and holiday tourist demands. Agriculture and industry, industry in particular with a very high skilled-labour content in our commodities, seem to me to be the two points upon which we should lay major emphasis, rather than upon what ought to be regarded always as an ancillary trade, the tourist trade.

I realise, as I said at the beginning, that we could not at present do without the tourist trade. I think we ought to ask ourselves: in what direction is it going? I do not think anybody here would like to see us turned into one gigantic Coney Island to attract tired businessmen and their luxury seeking, many-dollared friends from across the water. I do not think we want to become one gigantic amusement resort for the jaded rich of the world, no matter how much "we want their money," as has been said. In fact, I would stress the point that one of our major assets is that, so far, we have not been spoiled by tourists. We are all familiar with the praise given by visitors from abroad about such and such a portion of Ireland, that it is "unspoilt", and that word unspoilt means that so far it has succeeded in not being overrun by tourists. I think we ought to be careful not to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs by endeavouring so much to please the tourists that the discriminating tourist will eventually turn aside from us, as they now turn aside from garish resorts in other countries.

It was said frankly by one Senator here that it is their money we want. One effect of attempting to attract the tourist with the big money is that home prices will go up. I do not think there is much question about that. The increased prices demanded for many commodities will mean, in fact, that in many ranges of consumer-goods home prices go up. The experience throughout the world is that if you hold, for instance, a world exhibition or a world fair in any big town the effect on that town is a rise in prices. I cannot help feeling that if our tourist market here were to be over-developed, we might be thrown off balance. We might find ourselves being affected in our home trading by standards and commercial values which would be imported with the tourists rather than what might suit ourselves.

I should like to emphasise, as several Senators have, that the way in which we can attract the kind of tourists we want to attract, is by being ourselves, by laying emphasis, as Senator Baxter and Senator Lenihan said, on the things we can do ourselves, rather than by trying to imitate the countries from which these tourists come. Just the other day I had an inquiry from young friends in England who want to come here for six weeks' holiday in the South, and who want to bring their horses with them and ride across the South of Ireland as far as Kerry. It is not a very usual type of holiday, but they told me that in England there was an organisation called "Highways and Byways", I think, which will give them maps of the bridle paths and byways to enable them to plan such a holiday in Britain, and also give them all information as to how to make arrangements for the transport of their horses to a particular point.

In relation to Ireland—this is why I mention the point—they have so far found it exceedingly difficult to get information (a) about the transport of such horses to this country, and (b) the paths and byways in which they are principally interested for traversing this lovely part of our country. I mention this as a way of holiday life potentially quite natural to Ireland, but information about which might at present be difficult to get. It is the sort of thing on which a section of An Bord Fáilte or other organisations might concentrate some attention, the development of the simpler forms of tourism, not for the tourist with the high-powered car, and not necessarily even for travellers on horse-back, but for the cycling and walking tourist, for whom we are eminently equipped to cater.

I cannot help thinking also of boating. One of my regrets is that this city of ours is traversed by a very nice river and yet that for long stretches navigable for small craft it is inaccessible to the ordinary public, who cannot go up on those magnificent stretches above the city, where there ought to be restaurants, pleasure gardens, and so on. One ought to be able to hire boats there and be able to go boating on the summer evenings, but as things are it is just impossible to do that. This is true of many rivers in Ireland: they are not available to the ordinary public for large stretches of their waters as they would certainly be in Austria, Germany, Holland and Denmark.

I should also like to see us aiming more at what I would term the working-class tourist. We get quite a number of them particularly from Northern England, Yorkshire and Lancashire, and I should like to see us setting ourselves out more to satisfy them. I think one thing which is lacking throughout the country, and even in this capital city, is a series of really big and well-run restaurants at moderate prices. There are a number of first-class and excellent restaurants in Dublin, but they are expensive. There are also a number of restaurants with moderate charges, but they are small. I feel that we do not do enough to cater for the not quite so moneyed classes, and it is to make a plea for them, both home and foreign, that I should like principally to speak on this Bill to-day.

I think it is true, too, that in aiming to produce any commodity for export it is obvious—as we have been told again and again—that the best basis for a sound economic export trade is a well-developed home market. If you can sell your product at home and sell it well and economically, then you have a basis upon which to build an export trade. I should like to suggest that there is an analogy here for the tourist trade, and that the real basis for a tourist trade here is to set ourselves out to cater far more than we do at present for holidays for our own not-so-moneyed people. I am not sure that we as a people indulge sufficiently in the going-away-for-the-holidays practice. I do not think the ordinary Irish holiday-maker is sufficiently thought of by our various tourist mechanisms. I believe if we set ourselves out, without having any feeling of shame about it, to satisfy our own holiday-makers, in simpler ways and simpler places, without extravagant devices, then I believe we will have a basis for the satisfaction of a larger number of our own people and of tourists from abroad. In other words, if we can contrive more widespread holidays for satisfied Irish people, it would provide an intelligent basis for satisfactory holiday amenities for tourists from abroad.

Mr. Lemass

A number of suggestions were put forward by Senators during the course of the discussion which will be brought to the attention of the Tourist Board which, with its advisers, will be able to assess their value and practicability. I think most Senators were correct in their conclusion that the three main matters to which we have to give attention, if we are to secure substantial expansion of our tourist trade, is the development and extension of hotel accommodation, the improvement of transport facilities throughout the country and the lengthening by the measures which are open to us of the tourist season.

The main purpose of this Bill is to offer inducements to the extension and improvement of hotel accommodation. The other matters are all within the sphere of activity of Bord Fáilte, and in relation to them, as the House is probably aware, certain measures have recently been announced. With regard to some specific observations made by Senators relating to the proposals in the Bill regarding hotel accommodation, I think it is true that there are a number of applications for guarantees for loans awaiting implementation, as Senator Mullins said, which will, I hope, be disposed of quickly after this Bill has been enacted.

I agree with him fully, and have already said, that the protracted administrative procedure involved in the consideration and the disposal of applications has been a deterrent to hotel proprietors in seeking to avail of the facilities of the earlier Act. I am hoping we will be able to shorten and simplify the procedure, without unduly exposing the Exchequer to the risk of loss. Apart altogether from the administrative changes of that kind that can be made, I believe that the provision in the Bill which permits of Bord Fáilte giving the grant in respect of loans raised outside the guarantee system will itself operate to secure a far greater utilisation of these aids in the future than in the past.

I think Senator Quinlan misunderstood the reference to £75,000 in subsection (2) of Section 3. That is the limit fixed to the amount which may be given by way of grants in respect of interest in any one year by Bord Fáilte, and, while it is possible to calculate that an investment of £1,500,000 a year would represent a considerable development, of course it is not to be assumed that loan capital will be the only source of new investment in hotel accommodation.

With regard to transport facilities, I agree strongly with Senator McGuire about the importance of improving the arrangements for the transportation of visitors who wish to bring their own motor cars with them. I have said already that the motoring visitor is going to be a far more significant feature in our tourist statistics in the future than in the past. Many of them will avail of the car-hire facilities which are now being developed, and I think it is possible that the motoring visitor may more frequently be driving a hired car than his own car transported to this country.

Nevertheless, it is true we do lack adequate facilities for the bringing in of visitors' motor cars by sea or air. The operation of an improved car ferry service, either by sea or air, or both would be very helpful. The matter has received consideration, as far as sea transportation is concerned. It is quite obvious that substantial undertakings would be involved in the provision of an improved sea transportation service and that speedy results could not be gained, but some arrangement of a temporary kind can be initiated and is being urged.

Senator McGuire raised one matter of very considerable importance to which a great deal of thought has been given—the possibility of securing a substantial increase in American tourist travel by air, if air services were operated into Dublin rather than into Shannon. There are many questions of policy involved in that suggestion. The House is probably aware that this country spent a great deal of money on the development of Shannon as a transatlantic airport and in maintaining that airport up to the highest standards required by international authorities.

That airport has been maintained in the main by transit traffic. In other words, most of the planes landing with passengers proceed on again to other destinations. Of course, terminal traffic at Shannon has increased considerably, but it is true to say that 90 per cent. of the passengers who arrive at Shannon are transit passengers. It is not easy to foresee what the future may be in regard to that. It is to be anticipated that, with the advent of the new tourist fares next year and the operation of services on a tourist basis, when economy will be a predominant feature, the utilisation of Shannon is likely to be increased, but with the subsequent development of the larger jet aircraft, the position is inclined to be obscure.

In order to deal with that situation, as Senators will have seen, we have set up a promotional authority with Mr. O'Regan, the Chairman of Bord Fáilte and Comptroller at Shannon Airport, at its head to promote the development of Shannon Airport, both by improving the tourist amenities at the airport and in the vicinity of the airport as well. I am fairly confident that that promotional effort will have substantial results at Shannon. If one could secure the future of Shannon in respect of passenger and freight services, it would be easier to contemplate the operation of transatlantic services into Dublin, either direct or via Shannon, with Dublin as the terminal point of the service, but it is clear that it would be necessary to be certain that the operation could be so controlled and regulated that the development of Shannon would not be prejudiced.

I think it is extremely likely that with the improvement of holiday facilities in the West of Ireland the coming of the faster and larger aircraft will also increase traffic to the West of Ireland, particularly from across the Atlantic, and that we will be able to sell holidays in Ireland to people from America and Canada in increasing volume, by reason of the improvement in air services through the shortening of the time of the journey and so on. That idea is being explored and this promotional effort has already been initiated, and future policy in that regard must depend on our views as to how that promotional effort will work out.

May I say to Senator McGuire that he is wrong in one figure he gave? He mentioned a figure of £100,000 as the anticipated loss on Dublin Airport. As far as I know, there is no deficit anticipated on the operation of Dublin Airport and what I think he may have in mind is a statement issued by Aer Lingus as to a possible deficit on their revenue account this year. I do not know if that is so or not, and, if there is that position, it must be looked into.

The position in regard to the possible operation of transatlantic air traffic into Dublin is quite the reverse. It would necessarily involve some capital expenditure at Dublin airport.

May I assure the Senator that if American visitors arriving in Dublin by boat are taken by bus to Glendalough rather than visiting the much more important attractions in Dublin, that is done by commercial agents who organise such tours, and not by An Bord Fáilte?

References were made to the improvement of the shipping services and these are all important. There is no doubt that we could have a substantial addition to our tourist traffic, particularly from Britain, if extended and improved shipping facilities could be provided and these matters are being considered, but the practical difficulties are obvious. Quite considerable improvements have been made in recent years in the shipping services and in the arrangements for the handling of peak traffic which tended to concentrate on one or two days every year.

With regard to the possibility of improving the tourist season, I think that must be considered in two parts. So far as hotels outside the cities are concerned, the best prospect is along the lines suggested by Senator Lenihan, the development and improvement of our sporting facilities, the opportunities for fishing and shooting and types of sporting holidays. In the case of city hotels, the development of conventions and festivals is recognised to be important and An Bord Fáilte will, indeed, help financially and otherwise, people who are organising such functions outside the normal tourist season. The initiation of An Tostal was intended to be an effort in that direction, and while it is still an important part of the whole tourist effort, Senators will have noticed that it has changed somewhat in character and is now taking the form of a series of separate festivals competently organised in the main centres of population, rather than as a nation-wide activity. That is all to the good, and in these matters we can always learn by experience and our experience of the operation and results of An Tostal in recent years has tended to promote that change.

I would agree fully with those Senators who talked about the importance of museums and cultural institutions as tourist attractions. I am sure most of us had the experience that when we travelled to cities abroad, we generally occupied part of our time visiting museums and similar institutions open for inspection in these cities. We must assume that visitors coming to Dublin, Cork and other Irish cities wish to do the same thing. I would agree fully with Senator Stanford that a great deal of money could be spent on the improvement of our museums in Dublin, but that money is not there. If he happens to know of a millionaire who would like to bequeath one or two million pounds for that purpose, we would be very glad to have it. I cannot, however, promise that the Government would be able to find much money for that purpose in present circumstances.

I was somewhat surprised by Senator Sheehy Skeffington's interjection. If I am not misinterpreting him, he seemed to think that the tourist business was not quite the business for gentlemen and that if we go into it at all——

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

It depends on which direction we go, what we lay emphasis on.

Mr. Lemass

I think that selling holidays to visitors from abroad is just as respectable as selling them steaks or whiskey or anything else and there is no reason why we should not go into it enthusiastically as a national contribution to the development of our people and the well-being of our country. It is far too soon to worry about problems that may arise through over-development in tourism.

It is perfectly true that the tourist trade is more susceptible to changes in the political climate of the world than other trades. People will always want to buy whiskey and steaks, but they tend not to want to buy holidays abroad, if any suggestion of international friction appears in the newspapers. To that extent, it is a trade that is liable to fluctuate according to conditions from one year to another. I think, however, the kind of tourist trade which we are selling in this country, a holiday secured by way of relaxation, is less susceptible to these conditions than the holiday based on different types of enjoyment.

Finally, may I say that while the development of water and sewerage schemes in small towns is, no doubt, important from the point of view of the tourist trade, it is not a function of An Bord Fáilte or the Minister for Industry and Commerce? All I can say is that my information is that there are now no outstanding applications for loans awaiting sanction.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining stages now.

Bill passed through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.