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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Apr 1959

Vol. 51 No. 1

Government Wheat Policy: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That, in view of the wheat policy announced by the members of the present Government prior to the last General Election, Seanad Éireann deplores the manner in which wheat growers were treated by the Minister for Agriculture during and after the harvest of 1958.—(Senators Donegan, L'Estrange and J.L. O'Sullivan.)

I was trying to relate my remarks to this motion regarding wheat growers. In the course of the argument, amongst other things, the Minister was accused of refusing to meet certain representatives. We all know that that is not so. We further know that the Minister was available in his office on most days during that period. I wish to quote briefly from an article in the Irish Flour Millers' Association's Newsletter of February-March, 1959:

"So-called ‘excessive' and ‘penal' were among the adjectives applied to deductions for screenings by people who argued last autumn that wheat prices should provide the whole cost of compensation of Irish farmers for their losses in a harvest ruined by bad weather. As is usual, those who knew least made the loudest noises."

That is a very apt quotation. I am prepared to bet that those who know least will make the loudest noises here in this debate this evening. The article continues:

"But as flour milling is, in fact, a highly complicated business, there were many who quite reasonably felt it hard that there should be deductions for wheat defects of which little had been heard heretofore.

Our hope is that this article on an admittedly difficult subject will be useful now and also for reference in normal years, to reasonable people.

The essence of the 1958 scheme devised to rescue wheat growers from the worst effects of a natural disaster was that wheat suitable only for animal feeding should be purchased, in the same way as if flour could be made from it. Only thus could millers, under the Cereals Act as it stands, pay a price which would offer compensation to growers whose wheat was unmillable."

There is a further paragraph under the heading The Legal Device, which reads as follows:

Regulations made by the Minister for Agriculture and stated to apply expressly to the 1958 harvest only, provided that wheat could be treated for pricing purposes as millable if it were (a) commercially clean and (b) in sound and sweet condition. The usual requirement that the wheat should be capable of being milled into flour suitable for human consumption was omitted in its entirely.

This legal device, produced at necessarily short notice, enabled the existing legislation to be operated for the benefit of badly-hit farmers. But the Act still stood, as did its schedules on prices. The millers therefore divided the wheat, as they took it in, into Grades 1 and 2, representing the actually millable, and the feed wheat which was to be treated theoretically as millable in order that a minimum price could be paid.

That does not suggest to me that the Minister was lacking in his duty or that he reneged on his duties to the farmers during the 1958 harvesting crisis. It is unlikely, under normal harvesting conditions, that such a condition will arise again, but, having regard to the conditions under which the Minister, the growers, the millers and the consumers were labouring at that time, I think the position was well and adequately handled. No matter what line of business we indulge in, we cannot insure against risk. Business presupposes risk whether it be farming or business in other lines, and if we are to engage now in a campaign of deprecating the Minister's efforts in his dealings with the farmers—if you like to put it that way—then I think we will be doing a very bad job of work.

During the course of the debate, reference was made to farmers purchasing machinery. They have ample credit to do so and if they want to go in for tillage, that is a matter for themselves individually. If they want to take the risk of harvesting, let it be good or bad, that is their sole responsibility. The people who put down this motion and who criticise the Minister did not mention who would pay the difference. They did not even mention a price or who would make up that price. They had not the gumption to say the taxpayer should do it because that, of course, would be a very unpopular thing to do. Since the Fianna Fáil Party were able to form a Government in 1932, wheat and beet got preference in our campaigns.

The terms of the motion limit the discussion to statements made prior to the last general election and to the manner in which wheat growers were treated during the 1958 harvest. I should like Senators to keep as close to the terms of the motion as possible.

I was trying to relate my remarks to charges made during the course of the debate, but since you rule that we must confine ourselves to the terms of the motion, I shall attempt to do so. As I said already, the position that arose in 1958 may never arise again. At least for our part on this side of the House, we hope it will not, and our argument is that the Minister did a very good job of work in dealing with the situation that faced him at that time. I do not believe that anyone with an outlook of fairness or who is actuated by motives of fair play could condemn him for the action he took in regard to the 1958 wheat crop.

It is admitted on both sides that we are never likely to succeed in marketing our surplus wheat abroad. We shall always have certain difficulties in dealing with that subject. We are not able to compete against the great wheat exporting countries like Canada and other countries that are able to grow hard wheats and put them on the market at much lower prices than we could. We have no elaborate machinery to help us do that.

As I said before, account has to be taken of the consumer and we never resorted to any device where he was concerned. We never tried to make a bun out of the loaf in order to cloak our difficulties. We always told the people where we stood and where they stood in regard to the growing of wheat, and I believe that most fair-thinking people, even in the N.F.A., will agree that the methods adopted to deal with the situation as we found it were sound methods, to say the least of them.

During the course of the year, there were many remarks made by the Westmeath Committee of Agriculture casting aspersions on the Minister for Agriculture. I am from the Midlands and it is news to me that Westmeath Committee of Agriculture are so interested in the growing of wheat. I remember a period during which they would not grow it and when the farmers around Mullingar would much prefer to grow hayseed. Now that we want them to grow hayseed, in order to grow good grass, we hope they will sow good hayseed and thereby produce good grass. I should like to hear fair criticism on this matter because it is one in which we are all interested— not merely the farmer but the miller and the consumer are also interested parties in the wheat cycle.

So far as I know, the Fianna Fáil Party made no specific promises regarding the price of wheat during the election campaign.

The Minister for Finance, Dr. Ryan.

I do not think any Minister or ex-Minister, as they were at that time, can be recorded as saying they were giving any guarantee whatsoever, and I challenge the members on the Opposition Benches to produce any quotations from the speeches of any Minister stating a figure as a guaranteed price for wheat. Senator Donegan quoted certain individuals, people who, to my mind, were not experts at all on the growing of wheat. I know Senator Donegan comes from an intensive tillage county, one of the nine intensive tillage counties we have, and the people in Louth are very interested in the growing of wheat. I suppose he spoke as a miller and I suppose he can also speak as a grower, but, whether he speaks as a miller or as a grower, he should temper his remarks and inject some little justice into them, because the Minister, and the Government for that matter, laboured long and hard to get certain people in this country to accept the view that we could grow our own wheat.

Very hard things were said during the course of our campaigns regarding the growing of wheat and, if I wanted to, I could produce quotations from certain well-known personalities in the Fine Gael Party which would go to show that they had an inherent dislike of the growing of wheat and, if they had their way at that time, we should never have reached the position which we have attained today in which we are able to grow, not alone our own requirements, but a surplus of wheat as well. So far as I see, that is the position.

It was interesting to listen to Senator Carter, especially when he stated that those who know least about wheat will, in all probability, make the most noise to-night. I know what he meant when he said that. It was also interesting to listen to Senator Carter speaking about wheat as a man who comes from the town of Longford.

From the county, not from the town.

Despite all the promises made by Fianna Fáil speakers before the 1957 general election, we know now that the tillage farmers were thrown to the wolves. We know that the farmers suffered enormous losses. It is reckoned that they suffered losses to the tune of at least £7 million. That loss had to be borne by those farmers who were growing that wheat and it is bound to have an effect on our future agricultural production.

We know that the tillage farmers are the backbone of this country. Some of those people who went in for wheat growing, who believed what they were told, who believed the promises made, are still stunned and silent because some of them staked all and lost all. They are stunned and silent because they were promised so much and expected so much and got so little. They were left to perish; they were left to paddle their own canoes, despite all the promises made prior to 1957 general election.

We on this side of the House know that in 1954, there was a glut of wheat and that the then Minister took courageous action. He told the people that there was a glut and that the price of wheat would have to be cut by 12/6d. a barrel. Senator Carter stated that Fianna Fáil always told the people where they stood as regards wheat growing. That statement is altogether wrong, as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned. The Government of that day told the people where they stood and told them the price they would get, but Fianna Fáil did not do that. They fooled the people and led them into believing that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power, they would get a price of 82/6d. a barrel for their wheat.

We know that Fianna Fáil Deputies at that time tabled a motion deploring the action of the Government in reducing the price of wheat. A similar motion was tabled here and the discussion lasted for two days. We all remember the crocodile tears that were shed then by members of the Fianna Fáil Party for the wheat growers. Senator Carter a few moments ago said that as far as he knew, no specific promise was made by Fianna Fáil that the price of wheat would be increased. Then he qualified that by saying that at least no Minister made such a promise.

Exactly; I said no Minister, or no ex-Ministers, as they were then.

Surely when a Party is in opposition nobody knows who is going to be a Minister after an election? We know that Fianna Fáil Deputies and Senators and Fianna Fáil canvassers made the statement throughout the length and breadth of the country.

May I draw the attention of the Senator to the terms of the motion, the first part of which says: "That, in view of the wheat policy announced by the members of the present Government..."?

I do not want unduly to restrict the debate, but I think the Senator should try to keep reasonably within those terms.

That is what I am doing. I propose to quote what I believe was the wheat policy of the Government, and the promises made by members of the Government before the last general election.

Could the Senator give us names?

Yes. The Minister for Finance speaking prior to the election, referred to the cruel and unjust reduction in the price of wheat. Would anybody not infer from that, that if Fianna Fáil were returned to office, they would give an increase in the price of wheat? Surely nobody would infer from that statement that the moment they were returned to office, they would cut the price of wheat by 15/- to 20/- a barrel, as happened last year?

Could the Senator give the reference?

The Irish Independent of February 25th——

It appeared in the Dáil Debates. I refer to column 43, volume 161 of the Dáil Debates, for March 26th, 1957. Deputy Corry put down a question asking the Minister for Agriculture

"if, in view of the absolute necessity for increasing the wheat acreage this year, and in view of the endorsement of the wheat policy by the people,"

—that, of course, was because of the inducement that they would get 82/6d. a barrel for wheat—

"he will state what steps he intends to take to secure by financial inducement an increased wheat acreage this season; and if, in view of the lateness of the season, he will make an immediate statement on the matter."

The Acting-Minister for Agriculture, in reply, said:—

"No alteration of the price of wheat in these last days of March could appreciably affect the acreage of wheat this year."

There is an implied promise. If the Minister wanted to tell the truth at that time, instead of trying to fool the farmers, he could have told them, as he knew well in April, 1957, that there was sufficient wheat sown. There were statistics and statements in the papers at that time, and the Minister, with his knowledge, would have been aware of the position. The statistics afterwards proved it. No matter what may be said about the policy of the inter-Party Government, or what some Minister or others are supposed to have said about wheat in the past, in that year, 1957, over 502,200 tons of wheat were supplied to the mills of this country—an all-time record. That was grown, despite the fact that wheat had been reduced by 12/6 a barrel the previous year. That was produced with an inter-Party Government in office, not by filling ten fields with inspectors but because they had confidence in the Minister in office at that time, that they would get at least a fair crack of the whip from him and also that the millers would have to give them a fair deal and a fair price for their wheat. He would not let the millers or anyone else ride roughshod over the farmers. He did not let them do it in the bad harvest of that year. Why did the Party opposite not give the 12/6d. they promised, instead of reducing the price?

The Senator will need to produce better facts in support of his quotations than he has been producing up to now.

One cannot convince some people. I am not trying to convince them, but I am giving the facts. Let me quote from Volume 170, Col. 2723 of the Dáil Debates. At that time, the man who had been in the position of Minister for Agriculture was dead, Deputy Tom Walsh, the Lord have mercy on him. Many people thought Deputy Corry might be the future Minister. Speaking at that time, when he himself thought he might be the future Minister, this is what he said:—

"I told the people that they would get 82/6d. a barrel for their wheat and they believed me."

There was one man who was not afraid to come into Leinster House and admit that he, as well as all the other Deputies and Senators and canvassers of the Party, told the people they would get this price of 82/6d. We all know they told it to the people, but he came into Leinster House and admitted he told them that. If further proof is needed, let Senators look at the Nationalist and Leinster Times of March 2nd, 1957. There was a very prominent Fianna Fáil Senator here at that time, Senator Cogan. Perhaps he had his designs also on the position of Minister for Agriculture.

May I again draw the Senator's attention to the terms of the motion? The Senator should be familiar with it, as he is one of the parties to it. The motion deals with the wheat policy announced by the present Government.

Yes, but Senator Cogan was a member of the Fianna Fáil Executive.

Senator Cogan is not a member of the present Government.

Senator Cogan was a Senator of the Fianna Fáil Party.

The Senator in question is not a member of the present Government. I ask Senator L'Estrange now to be reasonable with the House and to keep reasonably within the terms of the motion.

I agree, but he made a promise in black and white that he would give 82/6d. In any case, we know that the farmers lost a large amount. Over £700,000 was taken from them then and now they are getting back in return only a mere pittance, something like £420,000. What the farmers asked for was a fair deal and a reasonable return for their labour. They did not get a fair chance last year, but were badly let down by the Government. The Government held them up to ransom. They blundered very badly on the wheat problem. Their handling of it this year shows how quickly, irrespective of political morals, they can change tune when in Government, as soon as the instrument of their accession to power has turned against them. I have quoted the promises by members of the Government, by the Minister for Finance and Deputy Corry. What a change has come over them since they came into office, after all their specific promises and after all the attacks they made on the inter-Party Government for reducing the price of wheat by 12/6d. a barrel in 1954.

It would have been much better if Fianna Fáil had admitted the truth then, that there was a glut of wheat in 1954 and that no Government could deal with it more satisfactorily, as our agricultural policy had become lopsided, since we were importing oats and barley from Turkey, Iran, Iraq and elsewhere. If Fianna Fáil had admitted that the Government of the day were right in the action they took, they would not have a glut of wheat on their hands such as they had last year. They encouraged the farmers to grow wheat and then threw them to the wolves.

On 12th September, 1958, the Minister discovered that a new sort of wheat was being grown in Ireland. He labelled it "millable but unsuitable". This was to be put aside as animal feeding, but it was to be included in the price structure which would determine what the flour millers paid for wheat. The price to be paid for this "millable but unsuitable wheat" was left to the flour millers within the ambit of the Wheat Order. So drastically were the screening deductions implemented that the Minister had to crawl back on 18th September with his tail between his legs and make an arrangement that, in respect of wheat of 26 per cent. moisture and under, the screening deduction would not reduce the price to anything lower than a net 57/9d., with levy deducted. That price was exactly 24/9d. less than that expected by the wheat farmers from Fianna Fáil, as a result of the specific promises made before the election, that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power, they would increase the price of wheat to 82/6d.

We know that the Minister made a statement on 14th November, 1958 and I quote it:—

The Government have decided, that in view of the losses suffered by wheat growers this year, a substantial portion of the amount by which the cost of wheat for milling in 1958-59 falls below the cost for the past year, should be used for the benefit of the growers.

When that announcement was made, the farmers thought they would get something reasonable in return. We know that they did not get even what they were entitled to, that is, the £700,000 which was collected from them in levies. The levy was to come into operation only if we had a surplus of wheat. There was no surplus last year. Despite that, the Minister gave back only a little more than half of the levy which had been collected from the unfortunate farmers themselves. This was altogether wrong. The Government should come to the aid of the people who had lost £7 million and tried to help them even in some small way, because the Government can spend £5 million on jet planes, can give relief to professional boxing, to greyhound racing and to those paying income tax. It is only right that they should have the same consideration for the unfortunate wheat gowers, people who have done a good job. The wheat growers stood between the people of Ireland and hunger and want during the war. They answered the call when the call was made. There is no denying that the farmers have been in the front line of trenches in every war, national, social and economic, in this country, and when they were hit so hard as they were last year with the bad harvest, they were entitled to better consideration from the Minister and the Government, especially in view of the specific promises made to them. The promises Fianna Fáil made to these people lulled the farmers into growing more wheat than many of them intended to grow. The present policy of the Government is a continuation of their previous policy, to make the farmers paupers, hewers of wood and drawers of water.

We know that last year when the cost of living increased—it is at an all time record now of 146 points—every other section of the community got relief. Every wage earner got an increase, the civil servants, the local officials, the Garda and the Army got their increase of 10/- a week and in the case of national teachers up to £1 a week. Those people were entitled to that; but the farmers, who are expected to pay increased rates and, in the case of the wheat growers, lost all, instead of getting any increase, were not compensated and did not even get back from the Government what was deducted from them. They were not even given back their own £700,000 taken off in the levy on wheat. They are getting back only £420,000.

Many of the tillage farmers go in for mixed farming, and besides the loss from their wheat are getting 6/- less for their barley than they got three years ago, and for their grade A pigs 5/- a cwt. less. That is very unfair. While that continues, it is no wonder that we have wholesale emigration, that the people are closing their doors and emigrating.

What annoyed the small farmers more than anything else was the fact that the Minister advertised that this wheat which was sold to Irish farmers at £26 a ton was, according to the answer given to a question in the Dáil, sold in England to the British farmer at £18 a ton. That wheat went to John Bull, whom we were not to feed at one time, but were to whip, left, right and centre. We were told that we would starve John Bull. The Irish farmer was giving that advantage to the British farmer, with whom he was trying to compete, and that wheat was grown with the blood, sweat and toil of the Irish farmer. Why were the unfortunate people who grew this wheat and had lost all not given a chance at least to get back some of their losses? Wheat was sold here at £26 a ton, then reduced to £23 a ton, but John Bull, the British farmer, could get it at £18 a ton. In my opinion, that is a very foolish policy. It would have been much better if the Minister had sold to our own farmers, the people who produced it and lost heavily on it, at £18 a ton, to give them a chance of feeding it to pigs, poultry, cattle or anything else, so that at least they would have some little chance of getting back some of their losses.

As I have said, now that the Government have got into power on the backs of the tillage farmers and wheat growers, they have deserted them. We all know that due to their promises before the last election, they gained seven seats in the wheat growing area, but the Government have deserted the farmers and are now trying to court what in the past they called the ranchers and the graziers. We all know that consistency can be an overrated virtue in politics, but when the 30 year's old agricultural policy of a political Party is completely reversed overnight, we are entitled to ask what is wrong in the Fianna Fáil Party. There is no denying that this has occurred. If anyone looks up the recent White Paper issued by the Government called a Programme for Economic Expansion and looks at page 12, paragraph 17, he will find the following sentence: "Climatic and market influences combine to make grass the most important feature of Irish agriculture and future agricultural expansion will depend mainly on a dynamic policy of grass land development. Grass is the raw material of our principal export trade, beef, and cattle, of milk production and of sheep and lamb production".

That sentence could well have come from the lips of the late Deputy Hogan, Minister for Agriculture in the first Cumann na nGaedheal Government. It could have come from the lips of Deputy James Dillon, who was also a Minister for Agriculture. It is an astonishing utterance issued without any explanation from the Government who decried the growing of grass and the production of cattle and for a long number of years wanted to have all our land under tillage. We were told at one time by the Minister for Agriculture that he would fill ten fields of inspectors and make the old cods tuck down their ditches and tuck their tractors into them. We got 502,000 tons of wheat in this country—a record—in 1957 under an inter-Party Government without any compulsion. That was because the farmers had faith in that Government and knew that the Government and Minister of that day would see that the farmers got justice, that they got a fair price and that the millers would give them a fair field.

What were you doing in 1931 after ten years of the first Cumann na nGaedheal Government?

We were trying to build up the country when the people on the other side were shooting down Irishmen, among them Kevin O'Higgins.

1931 does not arise. I want to warn the Senator that he must come back to what is in the motion.

I was asked by the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party what did we——

The Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party is not in the Chair.

I am delighted at that, Sir.

I think the Senator should be made to withdraw certain allegations he made with regard to the dead. I think he made a very serious allegation against the Fianna Fáil Party.

Senator L'Estrange to continue.

If we look at the recent White Paper, we will see that 15 paragraphs and five pages are devoted to grass and the raising of mutton and beef.

The Senator will come to the terms of the motion.

In this White Paper, there is one paragraph and less than half a page devoted to the growing of wheat.

Wheat is the only matter which is relevant to this discussion.

Did I understand Senator L'Estrange to say that at one time the Fianna Fáil Party were shooting down men like Kevin O'Higgins?

He did say it.

The Chair is not aware of that.

He should withdraw it.

The Chair is not aware of it.

Would the Chair ask the Senator did he say it?

The Chair has ruled, and it is not for the leader of the Fianna Fáil Party to rule. I will not take any dictation from him.

With respect, I suggest to the Chair that the Senator should be asked did he or did he not say it.

The Chair has not heard the remark but the Chair will see the Official Report presently. Senator L'Estrange, to continue.

The Government, and there is no denying it, let the farmers down after promising them the sun, the moon and the stars. It reminds me of a quotation from Lord Melbourne who said: "Ponder, pause, prepare, postpone and end at leaving things alone; in short, earn the people's pay by doing nothing every day." They have done nothing for the wheat growers in the past six or eight months, in the bad harvest of 1958, and this year they have given no lead, good, bad, or indifferent, one way or the other, by an advertisement or anything else. Not one bit of advice has come from the Department. We know that last year the millers did not want to take winter wheat. They would not take it and farmers in certain areas asked for a lead from the Government as to whether they should or should not grow winter wheat. No lead came as to whether they should grow it or whether it would or would not be taken by the millers, if it were grown. The Government have let the farmers and the wheat growers down badly and they are doing nothing for them now.

The Senator was in Hume Street. He was quarrying.

I have not to go to Hume Street for anything, but the Senator has to go to Mount Street.

It is difficult for me to answer a charge which has not yet been made in concrete form. I have heard words bandied about but there is no practical evidence of any charge in regard to the motion put down in the names of Senators Donegan, L'Estrange and J.L. O'Sullivan. There has not been a scintilla of evidence to support the charge that has been made, the charge that the Government made definite promises during the general election. Allegations have been made but that is as far as it goes.

The motion "deplores the manner in which wheat growers were treated by the Minister for Agriculture during and after the harvest of 1958." This charge is made by the very people who have been saying down through the years that wheat should not be made the football of Party politics. For goodness' sake, will they swallow their own words? Wheat growers have been let down by the Minister, they say. Is it not a fact that the Minister met representatives of farming organisations in regard to wheat during and after the 1958 harvest? That cannot be denied. Nobody can deny that difficult times were approaching during the harvest of 1958. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that we have come through the most serious harvest the country ever had to face.

The Minister met representatives from farming organisations, including the N.F.A. I have met members of the N.F.A. who were in consultation with the Minister, and although they were politically opposed to him, they agreed with his point of view that under the circumstances nothing else could be done but what had been done. Why cannot Senators opposite who know very well the difficulties that had to be contended with, leave these matters in the hands of those people who stand to benefit or to lose through the policy carried out at the particular times? Those who are fully qualified to discuss the points of view with the Government have had discussions with the Minister and his officials, and they have agreed that in those difficult circumstances nothing else could have been done.

I put it to the movers of the motion: if the Minister had insisted as the harvest went on, that only the full standards should be accepted by the millers, who would benefit or lose? Senator Donegan will not contradict me when I say the standards accepted by the millers were seriously relaxed, thereby bringing into the mills a lot of wheat that would not in normal circumstances have been accepted even for pig feed. Who would lose if the full standards were maintained?

In the debate on a somewhat similar motion on the price of wheat on 12th March, 1958, I agreed that the Minister and the Government, in determining the price of wheat, should give full benefit to those people, the wheat producers, who have been habitual growers of wheat, who produce it and harvest it by the old methods of cut, stook, stack and thresh. If that were followed in the 1958 harvest, who would benefit? Would it have been the wheat growers who are now rallying to Senator L'Estrange or the wheat growers who are rallying to Senator O'Sullivan? Senator O'Sullivan's supporters would gain considerably because they have been habitual growers of cereals and continue to harvest by the old methods. My constituents who grow cereals on a big scale, and grow wheat, would also benefit.

In the debate I agreed with Senators opposite, and Senator Tunney was one of them, that steps should be taken by the Minister to see that the practical farmers who have grown wheat down through the years and have husbanded both the crop and the land should get full benefit of the maximum prices available. I still maintain those views. The Minister, in meeting the farmers' representatives and taking into full consideration the hardships that would be involved in the greater section, agreed to marry the two prices. We all had to benefit or lose by their decision, whichever point of view we held.

Senator J.L. O'Sullivan said that the Fianna Fáil Government have been uttering the catch-cry "Grow more wheat". I could remind him that another Minister had been throwing around catch-cries that wheat, like peat and beet, would go up the spout and God speed the day. It looks as if none of them has gone up the spout.

I suggest to the Government that if they want the farmers to produce anything here in abundance, they should send out the other Minister in violent opposition to the proposal and they would get what they want, I assure them. Not only have we an overabundance of wheat but we have an over-abundance of beet, too, as Senator J.L. O'Sullivan will agree. He mentioned, as did Senator L'Estrange, a price of £18 for wheat for export. Both of them know full well what happened then. To prepare for the abundant harvest that was promised, were it not that the weather prevented it, the granaries had to be prepared for this crop—and most of them were still filled with grain from the previous harvest. No steps were taken to get rid of it before that.

If it happened that the granaries were still filled with corn from the previous year and no room was available for the incoming crop—granted we had a favourable season—I could see Senator L'Estrange and Senator Donegan, especially, coming here to-day with an entirely different motion. If the Irish farmer were allowed to purchase it at the price at which he said it was exported, what would happen to the guaranteed price for feeding barley? Senator Donegan knows full well what would happen. There lies the answer.

I said at the outset that the policy in regard to wheat should be left to the people who represent wheat growers. In fact, the same applies to all crops. Not only should wheat be left outside the arena of Party politice, but every crop should be left to the safe care of the farming organisations, in free consultation with the Government and the Department concerned. If that could be done, I think a good deal of the difficulty could be overcome. A good deal of harm has been done by irresponsible people who go up and down the country with catch-cries such as "the Government let down the wheat growers."

If we could get the people to organise themselves in such a way as to grow every ounce of everything we need in this country, and grow a surplus of that commodity for which we are sure we can get an export market, something would be done to stabilise agriculture. It can be done if politicians leave these matters to the people concerned.

I do not propose to go outside the terms of the motion. It is difficult to answer a charge that has not been substantiated in any sense, shape or form. The charge is groundless and it is calculated to do more harm than good. I suggest we should leave this matter entirely in the hands of the agriculturists who are directly concerned. If they do that, we shall do a very fine service to the people they represent, be they agriculturists, producers or consumers, for whom Senator O'Leary is gravely concerned.

There can be no gainsaying that the impression was conveyed in the last general election by back benchers and others that Deputy Dillon, the then Minister for Agriculture, had lowered the price of wheat; that that was wrong; and that Fianna Fáil would remedy the position if they were returned to office. The suggestion was made that they would bring the price back again. There was no suggestion whatever that the price would be lowered below that obtaining at the time.

In recent months, we have heard quite a lot about the policy put forward by political Parties at elections and about the fact that the electorate are supposed to judge on the policies——

May I draw the attention of the Senator to the terms of the motion?

It speaks of the wheat policy as presented——

——announced by the members of the present Government prior to the general election.

I do not wish to quote on this. I am merely making the general observation that nowhere was there any suggestion of a decrease. I make this point at the present juncture because it is extremely important to keep the confidence of the producers. I deplore the charges, back and forth between the two Parties, as to who did this and who did that. That is not the way to get increased production. Increased production calls for the united efforts of all concerned. That is why I subscribe to the motion. I believe such charges can undermine the confidence of producers. Increased production does pay and the more they produce, the more they will have in the end.

Senator Lahiffe referred to the National Farmers' Association. That is ground on which we should be very careful not to tread. It is a non-political organisation and it is doing an excellent job. I am aware that they have been greatly dissatisfied with the wheat policy of the Government. I am equally well aware that they would not have agreed with Deputy Dillon's lowering of the price in the previous period.

The point is that if it is necessary to lower the price, to take drastic measures, it should be possible for the Government, at this stage of our advancement, to bring the producers' representatives together, to get them to see the reasonableness of whatever policy is being implemented and not to leave the producers dissatisfied, as quite definitely they are dissatisfied, with the present wheat policy. We all know the surplus: it seems that that could have been got over reasonably enough by a contract system. Even if the contract system could not be introduced last year, certainly arrangements could have been made to introduce it in the future.

I think the taxpayer should have had to pay to keep the confidence of the producers in the policy of the Government prevailing at that period. I do not want in any way to be construed as making a political speech. I am talking simply of the necessity for keeping producer confidence and, of course, those references to ranchers and all the rest in connection with the growing of wheat can be simply answered. Surely, at this day and date, our Government have ways and means of ensuring that does not happen—whether by contract system or otherwise—and of ensuring that the small and medium farmers are given their proper priority?

I know we have got a measure of agreement but I believe the stage has come in this country when we ought to take agriculture out of politics and I shall welcome the day when I see, in the Seanad and in the Dáil, an all-Party committee on agriculture. I shall welcome the day when we cease bickering about who did this and who did that. All Ministers have been endeavouring to do their best. Deputy Dillon did his best and the present Minister, undoubtedly, is doing his best, but that is not good enough to keep faith with the producers.

The Minister to conclude, except for the Senator who moved the motion.

That is all right with me.

To tell the truth, I am always anxious, whether it be in the Seanad or elsewhere, to take part in a discussion and to listen to the views of those who have anything to say on agricultural matters, but, to tell the truth also, this motion has been suspect with me and, I think, quite legitimately so—the purposes of it, the objective being aimed at, however plausible and non-political the words may be that are chosen in introducing it or completing the discussion on it. That is the opinion I formed when coming here and, as a result of that, it is not easy to take too seriously some of the points made and some of these non-political pleas we always hear from people who I am afraid are not too non-political.

We expected that Senator Donegan would have some charge to make, as Senator Lahiffe has pointed out. I do not intend to go into all the details of last year's troubles, so far as the wheat producers were concerned, except to say that in all my Department's decisions, and prior to the decisions being made, there was full consultation with the N.F.A. and that, in fact, the scheme which was introduced and announced in 1958 was the scheme that was prepared by the N.F.A. It would not be any harm if Senator Quinlan kept that fact in mind. As I said in the Dáil, it was not my scheme, nor, in all probability, would it have been the scheme I would decide upon, but, in order to secure the co-operation and support of those who were most intimately concerned, I bent my will and judgment to meet them in this regard.

The same thing applies to the situation that came about rather suddenly in August and September of last year when the whole pattern was changed, as a result of the havoc caused by the weather, in so far as wheat growing was concerned. It is not that I resent this because when you are in politics, and especially when the Fianna Fáil Party are in office and are confronted with a disappointed, despondent Fine Gael Opposition, there are no depths to which they will not go, either privately or in public——

What is wrong?

——whether in private or public, as character assassins. I have been accused of not announcing to the farmers what I thought they should do in 1959. In fact, I made it my business to make an announcement as to what they were going to get earlier than an announcement had been made for years past. I made that early announcement deliberately for the purpose of rehabilitating and building up their confidence and of letting them see that, even if they had a bad year, the mind of the Government was clear.

What kills the members of the Fine Gael Party, the non-political members and otherwise, is that, in 1957, when we came into office, some time in March, the acreage under wheat increased and, in 1958, when we announced the policy I have already referred to and the plan I have already told you about, despite all the predictions and all their accusations, the actual acreage in that year increased still further over that of 1957. That, of course, goes to show that the public at large and the farming community have always had confidence in us.

Because of the promise they got of 82/6d.

According to Senator L'Estrange, from 1932 to 1959, we have been breaking promises to the agriculturists and yet we have retained their confidence. Is it not an extraordinary thing that while we are charged with having broken faith with them, we got a greater acreage? We were accused of breaking promises in 1932; we were accused in 1937; we were accused in 1938; we were accused in 1943; we were accused in 1944, and in 1947; but in 1948, we were thought to have been broken politically, and now we are back again, stronger than ever, because the farmers of Ireland supported us. Is that not an extraordinary thing? Are they not the facts? It is these facts and it is that tendency, that loyalty and determination on the part of the people that make the character assassins come to life again.

I am castigated because of not having made some sort of announcement about price and general conditions. I made it in November, earlier than it has been made in years, for the reason that I wanted to re-establish confidence and give courage to owners of land. Why should I, anyhow, have resorted to the expensive campaign of advertising what I thought the farmers should do in the matter of whether they should grow wheat, barley or oats, when I had some of the most active members of the Fine Gael Party and, indeed, the mover of this motion, inserting advertisements in the Dundalk Democrat telling them what they should do? The strange thing about these advertisements is that although they were issued by the firm of which the Senator is a director, his name and the names of the other directors for the first time were not included in them.

Here is how one advertisement reads:—

"My advice is wheat"——

is how it is headed.

"...I think that those Farmers who are still in a position to change their minds should do so.

This firm has repeatedly advised the same approach for the last three weeks in this paper.

Oversowing of barley and oats is financially dangerous.

This year—‘grow more wheat.'"

Mind you, when you get that from a Fine Gael Senator in 1959, you are not doing badly.

Read the whole advertisement.

I shall. I have not nearly finished because the best has still to come.

It was very sound advice.

Here is where my interest comes in:—

"Highest Quality Seed wheats, barleys, oats. Home and imported. Fertilisers at keenest prices."

That was why I asked earlier which foot did the Senator dig with, whether he was digging for the farmers or the wheat growers, or whether he was digging as a merchant or digging for the millers or the brewers.

I shall deal with that.

I do not think there is anything of the character assassin about that. After all, the Dundalk Democrat circulates in Louth and Senator Donegan is a businessman in Louth. He is interested in wheat as a merchant; he is interested in barley as a merchant; he is interested in oats and fertilisers; and he is interested in the selling of all these commodities. Why should I call upon the resources of the taxpayer to advertise, since we have a businessman who, for his own reasons, and his own motives, is prepared to do it for us? In addition to that, he is a Fine Gael Senator? Perhaps having regard to some of the pronouncements, he did not like to associate his name openly with the advertisements.

It was not in "Truth in the News."

I did not catch that remark but it does not make any difference.

The Senator said that it was not in "Truth in the News" and I said it could have been, too.

Another advertisement reads:

"Spring Sowing Report.

Farmers, apart from malting contract amounts are sowing approximately twice as much barley as last year. Wheat sowings are down by 30 per cent.

Oats will be sown in slightly greater quantity.

Louth and Meath farmers have always received 4/- to 5/- more than the Government minimum of (37/- in 1958), for feeding barley. In a year of too much barley they will not.

We feel that more wheat should be sown.

For imported and home seed wheats, barleys, oats and fertilisers at keenest prices, cash or credit terms, try..."

Dougherty's and so on. One of the directors of that firm is a Bachelor of Agriculture and after all, I am an ordinary layman and I am invited to express the view whether winter wheat should be grown and whether it is good policy. Would you not have thought that a firm so keenly interested in a policy like this, with a Bachelor of Agriculture as a member of the board of directors, would have utilised his tremendous technical knowledge in order to tell the Louth farmers what course they should pursue?

There is another matter with which I meant to deal earlier, but it escaped my memory. Senator Donegan made an allegation that he had endeavoured to see me on three or four occasions during the months of August and September. I can say quite deliberately that no such request ever reached me and I can also say that as Minister for Agriculture, if I had been available on those dates, I would have been in duty bound to meet any member of this House, or any member of the Dáil, or indeed any public man. I do not know what Senator Donegan would like to pass as in this House amongst the members. I do not know what he would wish to pass as amongst the people amongst whom he circulates in his own county, but I do not think, somehow, that by a person from whom we hear all these protestations of fair play and co-operation a completely and entirely untruthful accusation should be made—by one who would like to have himself taken, whether entitled or otherwise, as one who is the essence of fair play.

A further point I want to make is that I do not think that at a time like this it is the business of a Minister for Agriculture to set about telling farmers what they should do.

That is a change.

There are times when the needs require a different policy and I should be the first to admit it. Not only that, but I would be the first to recognise when such a time arose. In the ordinary way, I have a fair share of contacts with rural people and farmers. I know their minds. I have met quite a few county committees of agriculture, composed of farmers, in the main. Indeed I was in County Westmeath for a whole day and I think I gave a good account of myself there. I have met all these people and, with all these contacts I undoubtedly can claim to have, I did not hear a critical word spoken on this matter by any fair-minded person, or even by persons openly hostile to the political policy of the Party of which I have been a member all these years. I have not heard a solitary word of criticism of the way in which this whole matter was handled last year.

I can tell Senators that I take a tremendous pride in the way in which we handled that matter. I know that is appreciated by growers of wheat in Louth, in Meath, in Wexford and other grain-growing counties. Members of the executive of the N.F.A. have openly and publicly declared that to be the conclusion at which they arrived. That is not to say an organisation like the N.F.A. will agree with everything you do. However, in every step taken, first, in the announcement of the scheme—which was their scheme—and secondly, in the departure from it to meet the extraordinary situation, there was consultation with them. There are a lot of Cork men these days who are speaking in a non-political sense on a whole lot of matters and Senator Quinlan, if he wants to sustain his claim to speak in a non-political sense, should make himself conversant with all these things. He will find that, in every step taken, the very pattern which he has outlined as the pattern desirable to follow, was the one followed by me.

Will the Minister answer one question? When the N.F.A. wanted 360,000 tons, the Minister insisted on 300,000 tons. That is a fundamental difference, is it not?

That was only a small matter. If we did not want 360,000 tons to convert into flour, we did not want it, and that is that.

Then it is not the N.F.A. scheme.

You could say 500,000 tons. The Senator has spoken as a non-politician, as a scientist, as a professor and everything else. Surely he knows that, if we require only 300,000 tons of dried wheat for the purpose of conversion into flour, no Minister could say he agreed to making the figure 360,000 tons. That is not a difficult proposition to understand.

The N.F.A. scheme was based on 360,000 tons.

The Senator has just made his speech and I shall make mine, with the Cathaoirleach's permission. I enjoy this very much, as I love to hear these non-political motions being discussed by these non-political Senators. We hear a lot about the young on-coming men who, we hope, will not have the political tinge and bias of those who went before them. Then we see these young on-coming men and find they are far more political and far more vindictive in their politics—I have a certain amount of evidence of that—than would be shown by those seasoned warriors who are often accused of being far worse than they are.

The seasoned warriors should bow, Sir.

The first thing I want to say, in conclusion, is that several Fianna Fáil Senators made a statement that no quotation was given which, within the wording of the motion, gave a proof that members of the Government had made specific promises. At the start of my speech, probably in the first column, I gave a reference to Dr. Ryan's radio speech, taken from the Irish Independent of February 25th, 1957, in which he referred in the most drastic terms to the reduction in wheat and went on to say that the Fianna Fáil Government would give a remunerative price for wheat, implying that our price was not remunerative and that their price would be an increased one. That disposes of the statement that there were no definite proofs.

I have been in politics since 1954. From 1954 to 1957, I was in the Dáil and then they sent me upstairs. I do not know much about precedents, but never before have I heard any member of the Oireachtas attacked provocatively in his business. I have never known anybody who was a director of a firm or had an interest in a firm, to be attacked to make a political point, on what he did in that firm or what the firm did. I hope that this does not create a precedent. I found myself in that position. I knew full well that the Minister had before him a slice of the Dundalk Democrat which is well known to me and which I have seen before. I hoped he was not going to use it, but I made up my mind as a businessman that if he had started to use it I would have no choice but to let him read it through and then I would reply to it, as if I claimed the indulgence of the Chair and asked that my business be not discussed, I could not reply. I hope that neither in the Dáil nor in the Seanad will the Minister's actions create a precedent, as I can assure him of one thing, that there will be fewer businessmen in the Dáil or Seanad if this sort of thing continues.

He spoke of my "character breaking" and a lot about the depth to which Deputies can go. I did not sink to that. I did not at any time attack the Minister or say what he does or does not do in Cavan. He said what I did or did not do in Louth. We in Louth can look after ourselves and I can be friends, thanks be to God, with many friends of the Minister. I want to stay that way.

As an ordinary member of the Upper House here, I feel I have been deeply injured in my approach to politics by the approach of the Minister in attacking me. I must reply on it and say that he did not quote the whole of the advertisement in which he says: "My advice is wheat." I would not presume to say such a thing. "My advice is wheat" was an extract from an editorial in the Irish Farmers' Journal, specified as such. Also, the advertisement heading: “Spring sowing report” referred to a Spring sowing report—and the Minister was five months wrong when he mentioned that winter wheat should have been the subject of discussion there.

Thirdly, I want to say that it is about two or three years—it might be a shorter period, it is hard to remember, but it is certainly some considerable time—since that firm's advertisements carried the names of its directors. They decided that, as a new firm, that was necessary; but it is not necessary now. They were not deliberately left out in that advertisement, nor have they been inserted in advertisements for some time past. I shall say no more, but I hope the Minister has not created a precedent. I do not think any one of his colleagues would have acted in that manner. I need not reply by attacking him, as I could, on his method of making money in County Cavan.

The Minister also stated that there was full consultation with the National Farmers' Association. Consultation is one thing; agreement is another. There may have been full consultation but there was not full agreement, and it is unfair to use a non-political body like that and, in saying that there was full consultation, to imply that there was full agreement. I referred to the N.F.A. statement after the Minister had announced his ex gratia payment. The statement said: “Mr. Seán Healy, general secretary of the National Farmers' Association, issued the following statement on behalf of the Association:

The National Farmers' Association is gravely disappointed with the Government's announcement of the ‘special payments' to be made to wheat growers in respect of the 1958 wheat crop. Farmers throughout the country based their hopes on the Government's statement of November 14, 1958, an extract from which reads—‘The Government have decided that in view of the losses suffered by wheat growers this year, a substantial proportion of the amount by which the cost of wheat for milling in 1958-59 falls below the cost for the past year can be used for the benefit of the growers'. Their (the farmers') hopes have been far from realised.

The statement went on to give the opinion of the N.F.A. If the Minister wishes, I shall read it, but I do not want to delay the House. I shall give the arguments they used. Whether or not I would agree with these arguments, I want to prove that while there might have been consultation, there was no agreement and it was unfair of the Minister to imply that he had the N.F.A. behind him.

Again, we have the situation after the election when the acting Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Aiken, who had taken over after the very sad demise of the previous Minister, God rest his soul, said in reply to a question that "no alteration in the price of wheat in those last days of March would appreciably affect the acreage of wheat this year". If that answer did not have the result of increasing the acreage even in the last days of March, why imply a promise of an increase in price? I do not know what his intention was, but I certainly think that reply was misleading in the extreme.

Senator Carter asked who is going to put up the money. I shall say what I think. There was a national emergency which was handled very badly and the Minister was grossly negligent. I have said so, and I have also said that I hoped he would not take it personally. Many a person who was grossly negligent lived to do something for Ireland, and I hope he will do so too. Why was the national exchequer not asked to make a greater contribution? The handling of the matter was bad inasmuch as the Minister did not do specific things. I asked why he did not do them, and to make a statement about them, but he did not answer me and in summing up to-night in five minutes I referred to them. Around that time the Minister interrupted and said that I did not dare to offend the millers. That indicated that he intended to attack me in my business. I do not think that it did me any harm. I hope not, anyway, but I can assure the Minister that if somewhere in Ireland there is another fellow in my business who might think of coming into this House and giving his honest contribution, the Minister certainly has not helped him.

If the Minister wants a few criticisms in which the millers would be involved and with which they would not agree, I am now going to give them and to show the Minister that I do dare to offend anybody I feel like daring to offend when I carry out my public duties in this House. The first thing I am going to say is that the Minister allowed the millers to remove the payments they made to the merchants or driers for sacks, but at the same time the price of wheat was not increased. The cost of a sack was approximately a shilling when one takes account of the number of times a sack can be used. That meant that the Minister allowed the millers to pocket 2¾ million shillings in an average wheat harvest, and not a word was spoken. That is something the millers would not like to hear. I could meet them tomorrow and still hold my views and do my work for them as long as I do it well.

They would not like my saying that the Minister's big mistake was not insisting on a minimum quantity of Irish wheat in the grist. When the price of foreign wheat was favourable, the Minister did not insist on a minimum quantity of Irish wheat. His predecessor in 1954 insisted on 50 per cent. and eventually made them use 66? per cent., but because the present Minister did not insist on a minimum, 90 per cent. of the wheat of Ireland was put aside as millable but unsuitable and only 10 per cent. was used in the grist. The Minister when he made his catastrophic agreement of September 12 allowed himself to be led astray. If only 10 per cent. of the wheat grown in Ireland was fit for milling, where did we get the seed that is too thick on every field in Ireland to-day?

I come back to the stage at which the Minister told me that I did not dare offend the millers. I am going to say something that does not offend them. I am going to refer to Senator Carter's quotation from the Irish Flour Millers' Association Newsletter in which attention was called to certain journals which referred to the screenings as “so-called excessive and penal.” The reason these screenings were such was that the Minister had failed when he made his bargain on September 12th. He left the millers in a position that final arrangement of the prices which would have to be made was not made on that date. The millers are nobody's darlings. They are people in this business to make money for themselves, and quite naturally, they reduced the price to the maximum extent to be as safe as possible. If the Minister had made a definite arrangement on September 12th, there is no doubt that things would have been entirely different.

Senator Carter said that there is no one at this stage in any doubt as to Fianna Fáil policy. Everybody at this stage is in the greatest doubt as to Fianna Fáil policy. In December of 1957, after the Fianna Fáil Government had been in office nine months, a leading article in the Irish Farmers' Journal which I quoted earlier to-night drew attention to the fact that there were grave doubts as to Fianna Fáil's attitude to wheat growing. If there were grave doubts then, what sort of doubts are there now? Senator Carter went on to prove beyond yea or nay why there was a change in Fianna Fáil policy when he said that at one time they were trying to make the farmers of Westmeath grow wheat, and now they wanted them to grow hay seed when they wanted to grow wheat. That is the position. I am fed up.

No doubt. The people are absolutely fed up with people who produce antediluvian quotations about wheat. I do not want quotations from 1930 or 1928 or 1927 or 1935.

Hear, hear!

I am glad the Minister is at one with me.

I never made a speech on that in my life.

Wheat, beet and peat have been made the subject of one quotation. That was made for different seeds on the basis of 2½ barrels per acre. If the Minister wants the quotation, he can get it. That is the actual figure—2½ barrels per statute acre.

The harmony did not last long.

We are in an entirely different situation. The Fianna Fáil Government are quaking in case we have more than 300,000 tons of wheat because every barrel is a vote lost.

We cannot keep you from growing it and that is the beauty of it.

"We cannot keep them from growing it now." Do Senators get the implication there?

The Minister added "and that is the beauty of it". He said "We cannot keep you back."

I want to refer to the things the Minister did not mention. He is very fond of me and various other people and he made us the subject for the debate. We are not very wonderful so he did not make a good job of it. He did not mention the point I raised with regard to the minimum amount of Irish wheat put into grist. That is far more important. If we had sufficient seed wheat and sufficient millable wheat that was graded as unsuitable, where is the wheat? The Minister did not answer that question or was that the point?

Will the Minister give any help to the farmer who sold his wheat before 12th September and got 40/- a barrel for it? As I said at the opening of this debate, I know of cases where it was bought for use as feeding stuff by a firm which was linked with a flour mill and is in fact a flour mill, and that money would be paid back by a paper entry. I refer to the man who sold his wheat to a merchant or compound miller or feeder for 40/- per barrel and cannot get his money back. Did the Minister mention anything about that unfortunate man? I know 20 of them in my own area and I am quite certain there are thousands of them in Ireland. The Minister did not even deign to say: "I am terribly sorry; I cannot do anything about it."

The truth is what I had to announce to the Minister to-night, that the people who sold their wheat at feeding stuff prices to firms linked with flour mills would get their back money. The Minister could not announce it, because if he did, it would show to greater effect the fact that many people were not going to get it. That is the political reason. Has the Minister succeeded in making a statement that would enlighten the farmers on next year's harvest? Last year many millers refused to take winter wheat. Has the Minister informed us that three out of four millers, giving a list, will accept winter wheat? Has he told us that no flour miller will accept it or that some of them will? He has not mentioned it.

Has the Minister given any hope to the man with the combine harvester on hire purchase who has not the money to buy a cat? I do not think he has. Has he taken into account the fact that speakers from this side of the House told him that the policy of this Party was to grow wheat, that men sold their cattle, small farmers, took land and bought machines and now, as verified by Deputy Carter and given in retaliation by the Minister, the Fianna Fáil policy has backflipped? These people who have £1,000 or £1,500 to pay on their combine harvesters are to be left with no hope for the future and no leading light as to whether wheat will be as good in the future as it was in the past.

The Minister made the statement that he never told us so early before what the price of wheat will be. He did not have to do that. When the subsidy went and An Bord Gráin was constituted and the system of levy introduced, everybody knew what the price was. The Minister can come along in August if he wants to and find a levy but he can then reduce it. That is one of the things he can do because again there is no question of the farmers knowing whether or not there will be a screening reduction on normal wheat next year. Those are the things the Minister did not tell us. He was interested only in discussing Senator Quinlan and myself and not in making a factual statement on wheat.

Has he made any suggestion as to the type of wheat best suited to the Irish economy? After all, the catastrophic harvest of last year must have brought something to the surface. Has he had discussions with millers as to how much of each variety of wheat they want? If he has, why has he not told us and if he has not, why does he object to our putting a motion down to elicit the information from him?

Finally, the Minister took the line that he could pay some money but he refused to call it a repayment of the levy. A lot of people said: "What does it matter, if we get the money?" The truth is that the Minister could introduce a levy only for surplus wheat. He made a levy of 5/9d. per barrel for what was not surplus wheat but for the disposal of what was unmillable wheat. He got the Exchequer out through a side door by a method which, if adopted by any group of firms in the country, would result in their finding themselves in the highest court in the land, and they would pay the compensation.

Without any doubt, the Minister has the big stick. He has wielded it and wielded it very fully. He has refused to answer tonight, almost in an impertinent fashion, any of the reasonable case put to him. He chose instead to make me a butt in my own business. I hope he will not continue on that line because there is not one other Minister in the Cabinet who would have done what he has done.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 14; Níl, 20.

Tá.

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Burke, Denis.
  • Carton, Victor.
  • Crowley, Patrick.
  • Davidson, Mary F.
  • Donegan, Patrick.
  • Hayes, Michael.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Keeffe, James J.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Prendergast, Micheál A.
  • Quinlan, Patrick M.
  • Roddy, Joseph.

Níl.

  • Ahern, Liam.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Cole, John C.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Fitzsimons, Patrick.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Ó Ciosáin, Éamon.
  • Ó Donnabháin, Seán.
  • Ó Grádaigh, Seán.
  • Ó Maoláin, Tomás.
  • Ó Siochfhradha, Pádraig.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Teehan, Patrick J.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Louis.
Tellers:—Tá: Senators L'Estrange and Donegan: Níl: Senators Carter and Seán O Donnabháin.
Question declared lost.
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