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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Apr 1959

Vol. 51 No. 1

Companies Bill, 1959—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The purpose of this Bill is to amend the law relating to companies at present laid down in the Companies Act, 1908-1924. It has long been recognised that our company law is in need of revision to bring it into line with present-day conditions, but it has, up to the present, been difficult to find an opportunity to undertake the task because of its magnitude and complexity.

As Senators are no doubt aware, a committee was set up in 1951 to examine the matter, and their report was published last year. The committee discharged their task in an expert and workmanlike manner, and I have already expressed the Government's appreciation of the valuable services rendered by them. Their report, which contains many proposals for the amendment of the existing legislation, is at present under examination, but some period of time must elapse before the full implications of all the recommendations can be fully examined. For that reason, the Government decided, as an interim measure, that legislation should be introduced to give effect to some of the more urgent reforms requiring attention.

Later on, perhaps before the end of the year, a second and much larger Bill will be introduced to deal with the other amendments. Then, in order to cause as little inconvenience as possible in the legal and commercial fields and to ensure that the law will be as readily comprehensible as possible, it is intended to have all the law on the subject ultimately consolidated in one Act.

The amendments of the legislation contemplated in this Bill are not very numerous. One of them will permit the issue of redeemable preference shares. Under the existing law, the share capital of a company cannot be reduced without the sanction of the Courts. A company cannot, therefore, issue preference shares on the basis that they are redeemable, as this would involve an assumption that the Courts would sanction the reduction of capital. As Senators are aware, it is sometimes difficult to raise capital on satisfactory terms by the issue of ordinary shares. There is, of course, the alternative of issuing preference shares, but this may be an unsatisfactory alternative, since preference shares do not nowadays find the support they commanded in former years. One reason for this is that, over a number of years, there has been a tendency for their market value to fall, with the result that prospective purchasers of preference shares are often deterred from buying them because of the danger of capital loss. It is reasonably certain that an assurance of redemption at par within a fixed time would go a long way towards removing this disadvantage and would prove an attraction for investors. The possibility of issuing shares of this kind would therefore remove to some extent the difficulty which a number of Irish firms have experienced in procuring capital for development purposes.

I am satisfied that, provided adequate safeguards are adopted, the issue of redeemable preference shares would be advantageous. It has been suggested in the course of the debates on the Bill in the Dáil that, in addition to providing for the issue of redeemable shares as such, the Bill should also enable companies to convert existing preference shares to redeemable preference shares. In the case of many companies this would no doubt be a desirable power to have, and I considered carefully the possibility of making a suitable amendment in the Bill. There are, however, obstacles to this course which are rather formidable.

The principal difficulty which arises is that it is not sufficient to secure the assent of the preference shareholders and other members of a company to a scheme for the conversion of irredeemable shares to redeemable ones; the interests of creditors are of paramount importance and must also be safeguarded. It must be borne in mind that creditors enter into commitments with a company on the understanding that its capital cannot be reduced without the sanction of the Courts. A conversion of existing shares to redeemable shares would seriously affect their security, as it could involve a reduction in the liquid assets equivalent to the value of the shares to be redeemed. The creditors must, therefore, be given the right of applying to the Courts to have any such conversion disallowed.

A further difficulty which arises is that it would be unrealistic to assume that all the preference shareholders involved in a conversion scheme would be willing to accept redemption of their shares, and steps would have to be taken to protect their interests. As the law would stand on the passage of this Bill it would be possible to replace existing preference shares with redeemable preference shares by cancelling the existing issue in accordance with the procedure for reduction of capital provided for in the 1908 Act—a procedure which safeguards the interests of creditors and dissenting shareholders—and making in its place a new issue of redeemable shares. Should it be possible to devise a more direct and simpler method which would at the same time provide adequate protection for creditors and dissenting shareholders, I should be prepared to consider incorporating it in the next Companies Bill which as I have indicated, will be coming along later.

At present, a company may not purchase its own shares, as this would constitute a reduction of its share capital. The present Bill closes a loophole in this provision by prohibiting a company from providing financial assistance to other persons to enable them to purchase its shares. I propose to make an exemption to this rule which will permit a company to provide funds for the purchase of shares for the benefit of the employees. Schemes of this kind, which are in fact profit-sharing schemes, are regarded as highly desirable, and I do not wish that there should be any legal difficulties in our way. As a corollary to prohibiting companies from dealing in their own shares, I propose to prohibit a subsidiary company from purchasing shares in its holding company, and so prevent a holding company and its subsidiaries, by purchasing each other's shares, from building up an impressive facade of capital, which might be unsupported by any worthwhile assets.

Schemes for the amalgamation of companies may, in certain circumstances, prove impracticable under the law as it stands. The vast majority of the shareholders of a company whose shares another company wishes to acquire may be quite willing to sell, but for one reason or another a small minority may not be prepared to do so. As sometimes it is not an attractive proposition for the purchasing company to purchase less than 100% of the share capital of the other company, amalgamation schemes which are, perhaps, desirable from many points of view may fall through. In order to provide a remedy for this difficulty, the Bill contains a provision that if an amalgamation scheme has been approved by the holders of at least 80% of the shares involved, the acquiring company may purchase compulsorily the shares held by the dissenting minority. The position of minority groups is being safeguarded, however, by providing for a right of appeal to the Courts.

At present, certain resolutions (such as resolutions in connection with a change of name of a company or a change in its articles) are effective only if they are passed at two successive meetings; these resolutions are known as special resolutions. In practice, the second meeting is usually a complete formality and serves no useful purpose. There is, therefore, little point in putting companies to the expense of calling a second meeting, and I propose to relieve them of this obligation. I propose also to make a change in the law as regards the computation of votes at a meeting. As the law stands, members who are present at a meeting but do not vote on a resolution are regarded as voting against it. This is obviously unsatisfactory, and I propose to amend the law to provide that, in future, in computing the requisite majority, votes not cast will be disregarded.

Every company is required to send each year to the Registrar of Companies a complete list of its shareholders showing their names, addresses and occupations and also giving details of their shareholdings. The preparation of this list involves a good deal of labour in the case of companies with a large number of shareholders and I propose to relax the requirement to some extent without weakening its effectiveness. The Bill includes a provision that in future a complete list of shareholders need be filed in every fifth year only, provided a list of additions to, and deletions from, the full list is filed in each of the intervening years. This provision is permissive, and any company may if it wishes continue to file the complete list each year.

The name of a company must be set out in the Memorandum of Association which is registered in the Companies Office. This name may be changed subsequently by passing a special resolution and procuring my approval. As the House is aware a number of companies have been established under the Companies Acts by Acts of the Oireachtas, which in some cases prescribed the name under which they were to be registered. As a result these companies are unable to change their names under the procedure provided by the Companies Acts. A case which illustrated their difficulty came under my notice sometime ago when I was requested to approve of a change of name for one of these companies. I would have been perfectly willing to convey my assent, but I was advised that the procedure under the Companies Acts could not be utilised and that amending legislation would be necessary. In order to remove the difficulty I am including in this Bill a clause providing that the procedure under the Companies Acts will be available to these companies in future.

I am taking this opportunity of repealing the Companies (Foreign Interests) Act, 1917. That Act, which was passed during the First World War, is now an anachronism. It has long ceased to have any force but it is sometimes the cause of confusion in commercial and legal circles and the best way of dealing with the situation is to remove it from the Statute Book.

As I have already said, this Bill is merely an interim measure which is to be followed shortly by another and much more comprehensive Bill. I would therefore ask Senators not to press for the inclusion in this Bill of any matters which can be allowed to stand over till the second Bill, since to do so would defeat the whole purpose of the present Bill which is to give the force of law to certain desirable reforms without suffering the delay which is inescapable in the preparation of so large and complex a measure as the main Bill will have to be.

I can assure the Seanad that all possible steps are being taken to reduce to a minimum the delay in preparing the main Bill, as I am satisfied that the revision of our company law is long overdue and should not be postponed any further. It will be realised, however, that the drafting of the second Bill will be a very complex and formidable task, and time will be needed to prepare the comprehensive and carefully thought-out measure which will replace our present code of company law.

This Bill is, in my opinion, one of the most important Bills that have come before the House for very many years. It is, if you like, the child of the report of the Company Law Reform Committee which was set up by the then Attorney General, Mr. Charles J. Casey. On that Committee, Mr. Casey was able to procure some of the best brains, in the State and outside the State, to report on the position of company law as it appertained in Ireland at the present time, and on its defects. I was glad to hear the Minister say that this is only a beginning of what he intends to do and I presume he proposes to codify the whole of the company law in Ireland as it exists at present.

I must welcome his forcefulness in bringing forward this Bill because it deals with some, or at least one, of the most important omissions in existing company law, that is, the right of the private company to issue redeemable preference shares and I think it well that I should refer briefly to what I think has been one of the defects in our company law as it affects our economy and particularly as it has affected our provincial economy.

I know that in south-east Ireland, a part of the country in which I was born and reared and which I know very well, there were many fine, thriving industrial concerns. There was one firm, known as the firm of Malcolmson, and I think it is quite possible that the defects of the then inadequate company law constituted one of the reasons why that great firm in Portlaw became bankrupt nearly one hundred years ago. At that time, the establishment of the public company in Britain and the wider scope there for the investment of family moneys attracted moneys away from the establishment of the limited company, which were invested in readily marketable equity stocks in Great Britain. The result has been that money has been siphoned away from the family business.

There is another point which I think the Minister knows, but which I think should be stated in public today, that money invested in private companies is not readily marketable and is not negotiable. One can walk into a local bank and say: "I have five thousand £1 ordinary shares in a local company. It is giving good employment and is exporting a quantity of its products." The bank manager then says: "It seems a very good company to me but I am not able to put these shares on the market. I am not in a position to sell them. They are not negotiable and, as a security, the bank is not very interested in this type of scrip."

There is also another disadvantage which I wish to bring to the Minister's attention and of which, doubtless, he knows already, that is, if one invests money in one of these companies and, if one can be a director of the company, one may in that way derive remuneration but, on ceasing to be a director of the company, there is no obligation on it to pay a dividend to the holder of the shares.

Finally, the important point I wish to make is with regard to the redeemable preference shares. If one of these companies wants capital, it can now get it by the redeemable preference shares because they will have to be paid off at stated times. A person living in a country town who would like to help the economy of that country town but might want to provide for a daughter or son who may come of age, or for the education of a son or daughter in five or ten years' time, might say: "I shall invest £2,000 or £3,000 in a local industry and it will be redeemed at the time I want to send my son or daughter to a University or to another place of education." That, to me, is one of the major advantages which the Minister is including in this Bill. The other advantage I see is that the Minister's State agencies who wish to lend money to these companies, to assist them to increase their activities or to help them through difficult times, can be paid off at stated dates in redeemable preference shares.

At this stage, I do not think there is anything further that one can add except to thank the Committee who have issued such a fine report. We shall have an opportunity of reading it much more closely and of giving it a more detailed scrutiny when the Minister brings in the codifying legislation which he has promised to bring in at a later stage. I should like to ask the Minister if he has this work in hand at present and I should like to express the hope that it will not be long delayed because the type of company which we are to have in Ireland will be influenced by it. The type of legislation we have must protect the family and the family business because the family business will be the genesis from which the big public company and the managers will spring. I feel that the Minister's responsibility in this is great and I do not think that he is unmindful of his responsibility. We wish him well in this work and ask him to hasten the conclusion of the task as contained in the report of the committee set up at the instigation of the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Sweetman, when he was Minister for Finance.

As I understand the position from what the Minister has said, and from reading the Dáil debate, this is not a very important measure. It arises out of a report of a committee which sat for some seven years and the Minister anticipates another and more complicated measure later on. That is to be followed by a third Bill to codify all the company legislation. The Minister is aware that the trade union movement feels very strongly that the inadequate type of accounts which public companies must furnish should be brought up to date; that not alone should the bare essentials of the balance sheet be furnished but also that the profit and loss account should be furnished. The trade union movement made submissions to the committee on that point, amongst others.

The committee did recommend that the law should be brought up to date in that respect. I am wondering why the Minister did not take the opportunity in this Bill to provide for this improvement. I do not think it would be a very controversial issue. I do not think it would be very complicated because already the committee have said what they thought were the essential minima for the type of accounts that should be furnished by these public companies. Of course, the furnishing of accounts and the new details which should be furnished, as recommended by the committee, apply only to public companies. I was interested in what Senator Burke said about the public companies growing out of the family businesses and the family companies. Unfortunately—or perhaps Senator Burke would say "fortunately"—that does not seem to have been the experience in this country. I notice that, in 1925, there were some 1,088 private companies and by last year, they had increased sevenfold, to 7,664. Over the same period, the number of public companies had increased by only three, from the comparatively small number of 368 to 371 and the accounts I am talking about refer only to those public companies.

In regard to the Bill itself, I was interested in what the Minister said about making provision for the issue of shares to the employees of a company, which is provided for in Section 3, that is, that the companies are being exempted from the bar which otherwise operates in relation to furnishing money for the acquisition of shares of that company. That bar does not operate when the money is for the purpose of purchasing shares for the benefit of employees or former employees—in other words, encouraging in a way—or should I say?—preventing a discouragement of, profit sharing and a share in the ownership of companies by the employees.

That is thoroughly desirable. To my mind, it is essential that we should have industrial democracy as well as political democracy—although the latter may seem to be endangered at present. To come back to Senator Burke—he mentioned the banks and the views of bank managers in regard to giving loans to a company. That reminds me of something I heard about a factory in France recently which wanted money to expand, or to re-equip, or to stay in existence. The firm approached the bank manager who did not seem to be very much different from Irish bank managers and after examining their accounts, the company was told: "Well, certainly we will advance you the necessary money, but of course we would want a seat on your board and we also think you should cut out these social services and welfare benefits to your employees. After all, that is the task of the State." This company did not take that advice and the management went back to the employees in the factory and told them what the bank had said. The management asked them would it not be a good idea if, instead of the bank advancing the money, and having a seat on the board, the employees themselves furnished the money and had a seat on the board. I believe that factory has shown considerable improvement and when there were some general strikes, even the Communists in the factory worked there because they considered they had a share in the ownership of it.

It is very desirable that profit sharing and sharing in the ownership of companies and factories should be encouraged. This Bill does not go out of its way to encourage that, but it prevents a bar coming down in a certain respect. Applying the same sort of argument and the same point of view to Section 2 of the Bill, I find that it is provided that where redeemable preference shares are redeemed otherwise than out of the proceeds of a fresh issue, the nominal value of the redeemed shares is transferred to a capital redemption fund; in other words, it is set aside in a separate fund.

Sub-section (5) of that section goes on to provide that this capital redemption fund may be used to issue fully paid up bonus shares to members of the company—and apparently only "to members of the company". It seems to me that a company wishing to expand, wishing to re-equip, wishing to boost its production, might think it a very good idea to get the necessary money by the methods—desirable methods—which are being provided in this Bill, namely, the power to issue redeemable preference shares. Having improved itself, it sets aside the money to redeem those preference shares.

A company in that position may have been materially helped to accomplish that by the co-operation and work of its employees. I suggest that the board might think that in those circumstances it would be a good idea to issue bonus shares to its employees. As the section stands, it would be precluded from doing so. All they can do, if they wish later to issue bonus shares out of the proceeds of this capital redemption fund, is to issue fully-paid up shares to the existing shareholders, and only to the existing shareholders. I should like the Minister to consider, between now and Committee Stage, whether it would be desirable, in view of what he is doing in Section 3, to amend that subsection slightly so as to provide that the company can issue shares to its existing shareholders and/or to its employees.

The Minister, in his statement, has made the purpose of the Bill very clear. I do not intend to say very much on it. The report of the committee which studied this matter is an admirable document and, indeed, many people who are concerned with company law are glad that such a document is available, since it sets out the position with great clarity and sets out its recommendations very clearly, too. There certainly is a great need for some clarification of the existing law with regard to companies. I am certain that everybody will welcome the Minister's statement that it is intended to introduce another comphensive amending Bill before the end of this year, with a view to the consolidation of company law.

There seems to be a considerable demand for power to issue redeemable preference shares. If that be the case, this Bill will help considerably in the provision of capital for industry. The Minister made it quite clear that, where one company is buying all or any class of shares of another company, adequate provision has been made in the Bill to safeguard the rights of minorities. After all the discussion we have had here in recent times on the position of minorities, I am sure we are all very glad that solicitude is shown, and rightly so, in this Bill for minorities. Not alone is the position safeguarded as regards the value of shares, but also as regards the number of holders—and of course, there is an appeal to the Court provided in the Bill.

There is one drafting point which seems to be curious. It occurs in Sections 4 and 5, and I must confess that I do not understand it. I wonder if there is any particular reason for it in this Bill. In subsection (1) of Section 4, the words "cannot be a member" are used. It seems to me that this is a colloquialism which has unwittingly crept into this section. I should have thought that the phraseology there should be "shall not be a member" or "may not be a member". The word "cannot" does not seem to make any sense whatever.

The same word occurs in Section 5 (2) (a), where a person "cannot be appointed thereto without the exercise in his favour," and so on. Colloquially, "cannot" is correct, I suppose, but I can see lawyers having considerable difficulty in deciding what this word means. I do not pretend to know a great deal about company law. It may be that that is a phrase which is particularly appropriate in this case, but I do not think it is and I should be glad if the Minister would consider the matter with a view to having it amended.

The sections could be amended today, if that is necessary, and if the Minister is anxious to get all Stages of the Bill today.

Senator Burke was correct in describing this as an important Bill, in so far as it represents the first effort to revise our company legislation for 50 years. It is, of course, only the lesser of two Bills which will precede the ultimate consolidation measure to which I referred. The second Bill will be much larger and far more comprehensive and intricate. We undertook in this Bill to deal only with amendments to the law the need for which had been demonstrated in recent years and where it was practicable to meet the situation by an amendment which could stand alone and would not necessarily involve any consequential changes in other sections of the Companies Acts. There may be other amendments which I would regard as equally important and equally urgent, but which just could not be given effect to without a great number of consequential changes in various parts of the Companies Acts.

The principal provisions of the Bill is that which deals with redeemable preference shares. That is a change which I was anxious to effect quickly, since these redeemable preference shares represent a particularly suitable device in our circumstances, for providing capital for companies desiring to expand and for facilitating the operations of the Industrial Credit Company. The Industrial Credit Company at the present time can make new capital available for companies which want to expand only by taking up ordinary shares—which gives them obligations of ownership and is not always desired by the companies concerned—or by giving money on loan, which involves a charge on the company's assets. A redeemable preference share is somewhat similar in character to a debenture, but it is not a debenture in the sense that it does not carry a charge on the company's assets, which can still be used if temporary financing is needed.

From a practical point of view, the investor has the protection that he is guaranteed against capital depreciation. In recent years, because of the fall in the value of money, preference shares have become a drug on the market and have been saleable only at a capital loss and there has been no successful attempt to issue preference shares for many years. I think interest in preference shares will revive with the introduction of this redeemable provision. Certainly, the Industrial Credit Company will use the device of redeemable preference shares quite extensively. We are most anxious that the change should be made quickly.

There is one point I should like to make in that regard, arising out of Senator Murphy's remarks. The intention is that a company will redeem these shares out of profits that would otherwise be available for the payment of a dividend. That, in effect, means that the members of the company will agree to forgo a dividend they might otherwise receive in order to enable these shares to be redeemed, and in consideration of having sacrificed their right to a dividend, they may get in return ordinary shares in the company equivalent to the amount of dividend they have surrendered.

I do not think that the Senator is quite right in saying that the Bill might provide that those bonus shares, issued to the members in consideration of the fact that they have surrendered their dividend to enable preference shares to be redeemed, may be given as a gift to employees. There is nothing in the law to prevent the board of the company giving a gift of shares to employees. We are providing here a right to the company to issue those shares when the preference shares have been redeemed, in consideration of the fact that the members of the company have paid for them by forgoing their dividends.

They may wish to share them with their employees.

There is nothing in the law to prevent anybody giving away his property, and if the members of a board decide to give away some shares to help their employees the law does not prevent them doing so.

It is, of course, true that there are possibilities of improving the provisions of the existing law in relation to the publication of information concerning the financial affairs of public companies. The committee made a number of recommendations in that regard. They are fairly comprehensive and quite intricate. I should not like to undertake the drafting of the provisions of the new law, without a great deal of thought, and without affording organisations of accountants and so forth ample opportunity of expressing their views.

Have they not already done so?

Not sufficiently. I hope that I shall get far more comprehensive comments on this from the accountants and others than I have received so far. I have received a lot of very useful observations already from them and from other organisations, but the full effect of all the changes will have to be very carefully considered. The existing Companies Acts have remained unchanged for 50 years. I hope that the new Bill will be so comprehensive and satisfactory in its terms that it also can remain unchanged for another 50 years.

The difference between private and public companies is that private companies, in consideration of the fact that they are not obliged to publish the same details of their affairs as public companies, are permitted to restrict the transfer of their shares. That, in turn, means that they are not readily negotiable securities. Public companies wishing to raise money by inviting subscriptions from the public have to give all the details of their affairs which the Companies Acts prescribe, and of course are in the position that their shares can be transferred without any power in the company to control the transfer.

Every small public company has the same disadvantage.

A small public company is under no legal restriction regarding the transfer of its shares. They can be freely transferred to a purchaser without the consent of the company.

That is true.

If the company is only a small concern and there is no public quotation for its shares there is not likely to be any ready demand for its shares as a negotiable security. The shares in a private company cannot be transferred without the consent of the board, and that makes them unacceptable as security for lodging with the bank in consideration of a loan or overdraft. The fact is that the great majority of business concerns in this country, including some quite large ones, are private companies. Their membership is limited and their shares are not transferable, except with the consent of their boards. While they suffer from some disadvantages because of this, they also enjoy advantages which the Companies Acts set out to give to all companies.

The great advantage the Companies Acts give is of course limited liability. A partnership, or a group of people coming together to form a partnership and to share the profits on going into business is, each of them, liable to creditors to the extent of the whole of their resources whatever they may be, and until limited liability was introduced, the members of a company were liable to the last penny that they owned for the debts of the company. The principle of limited liability means that they are not liable for anything beyond their own shareholding in the undertaking, and that is a very great advantage which the Act confers upon a company in consideration of the company conforming to all the other requirements, and, particularly, publishing the details of its business as required.

I would accept that the principle of publication of information has to some extent been evaded or defeated in the course of time and that a strengthening of the law in that regard is necessary, because everybody going to do business with a company should be entitled to know, from its published accounts, exactly what is the state of its affairs and how good security they are for credit. I have said that I hope to have the main Bill coming along in the course of some months. The Government have in fact agreed to a procedure which will somewhat shorten the formalities involved in the preparation of a Bill of that kind. It was not entirely for the purpose of shortening the time that the Government so agreed, but because of recognition of the fact that nine-tenths of the task of preparing a new Companies Bill is not in deciding what is to go into it but the need to assure that decisions will be expressed in language which in fact carry out the intention, and be so interpreted in the courts in the years ahead. I should certainly hope that we would have the preparation of the Bill completed towards the end of the year, and while there will be no attempt to hurry it through the Oireachtas, it should be law some time next year. Immediately on the conclusion of that enactment, the aim will be to start the process of codification and ultimately reach the situation where one statute will embody all the law relating to companies.

Senator O'Quigley made a point about the rights of minorities under one section, but in fact that section is to establish the rights of majorities. I do not agree with him in the matter of the phraseology in Sections 4 and 5. I think that the right word there is "cannot". What Section 4 sets out to do is to provide that a body corporate cannot be a member of a company which is its holding company, and any allotment or transfer of shares to its subsidiary it would attempt to make is null and void. The right word is not "must not" or "should not" or "may not"; it is just that it cannot do that. Any arrangement which appears to be intended to bring about that result is null and void. Therefore, I think "cannot" is right in both sections. It just cannot happen, and anybody who tries to make it happen is attempting to do something which is null and void.

Question put and agreed to.

Has the Minister considered the point I raised?

About the bonus shares? The Senator will appreciate that we shall have an opportunity of going back again on these provisions on the main Bill. The Senator is missing the point of the measure, which is to enable something to be done, rather than to set up a desirable practice for companies.

I am not missing the point. I know there is no compulsion at all about it. The point I am making is that the section as drawn up at the moment precludes a company from doing this. If it wanted to do it, it is precluded from doing it by the way in which the section is drawn up.

That is not quite correct. Assume that we here are all members of a company and we were to get an issue of bonus shares by reason of the fact that we had passed a dividend for two or three years to enable preference shares to be redeemed. There is nothing to prevent us deciding to give away our shares to the employees of the company or to some trust fund.

Individually?

The Bill is to empower the company to issue bonus shares in consideration of the fact that we allowed the dividend which otherwise would have been received to go to the redemption of preference shares.

Yes, but what is provided here is that when there are unissued shares in a company, the company may utilise the capital redemption fund to issue these shares as fully paid-up shares but only to members of the company.

Acting Chairman

It seems to me that we cannot have a discussion at this stage. If Senator Murphy objects to taking the Committee Stage, we can postpone it. Does Senator Murphy object? This matter can be dealt with on Committee Stage.

If the Minister would like to consider it or if he is in a hurry, I do not want to hold him up.

I am not prepared at any stage of this measure to say that I am in a hurry because it is a type of legislation we should never be in any hurry about.

Acting Chairman

It could be taken on the next sitting day.

Is the House meeting next week?

That is the difficulty. We may not be meeting for some time now. That is why we were anxious to secure the completion of the Bill today, if possible.

Very good.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill considered in Committee.

Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

The Minister has given an explanation of the use of the word "cannot". I am not at all convinced that the position is as the Minister outlines it. It is intended that a body corporate cannot be a member of a company which is its holding company and that any allotment or transfer of shares in a company to its subsidiary shall be null and void. If you say "shall not be a member of a company which is its holding company", it can never be a member. That is the way Acts are rendered null and void commonly in legislation and I am inclined to think that the use of the word "cannot" is wrong. I have never seen it before in this context and I am not convinced that the Minister is right.

I am hardly in a position to argue what is purely a drafting point. I just expressed an opinion that the intention of the draftsman in this section was to make it clear that a body corporate cannot be a member of a company which is its holding company. He certainly was not trying to lay down a rule of procedure or good conduct. He was setting out the law that that cannot be and that any transfer of shares which might appear to have brought it about is null and void.

If the Minister is prepared to run the risk, I am agreeable.

I shall bring the observations of the Senator to the notice of the draftsman.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 5 to 12, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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