Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 4 Aug 1961

Vol. 54 No. 18

Curragh of Kildare Bill, 1961— Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Defence (Mr. K. Boland)

The Curragh of Kildare Act, 1868, divided the Curragh into three parts which were defined on the map deposited at the time with the Clerk of the Peace for County Kildare. The three divisions were

(1) The Brown Lands—575 acres that is, the area on which a permanent military camp had been established in 1858 and over which rights of common grazing were suspended by the Act. Such rights over the entire Curragh were appurtenant to grants by the British Crown of certain lands surrounding the Curragh, which had come into the hands of the Crown on the dissolution of the monastic institutions in Ireland.

(2) The Blue Lands or Rifle Ground — 463 acres: this area, though it remained subject to the rights of common grazing, could be used for musketry and rifle practice and other military exercises.

(3) The Green Lands, representing the balance, were to be used primarily for the common grazing of sheep but could also be used, in part, by the Irish Turf Club for horse racing and training and to a more limited extent than the Blue Lands for military purposes such as reviews, drills and, in cases of emergency, temporary encampment.

The Act provided for the appointment of a Ranger and Deputy Ranger to administer the Curragh but placed the Camp area in the control of the British Secretary of State for War for as long as it might continue to be required for military purposes. This area is administered by the Minister for Defence and was vested in him by deed of conveyance in 1957. The Blue Lands and Green Lands are vested in the Minister for Finance and are administered on his behalf by the Commissioners of Public Works, two of whom fill the offices of "Ranger" and "Deputy Ranger".

The areas of the three divisions for the purpose of this Bill are as follows:

Brown Lands 771 acres—an increase of 196 acres.

Blue Lands 815 acres—an increase of 352 acres.

Green Lands 3,284 acres—a reduction of 548 acres.

The addition of 196 acres to the Brown Lands at the expense of the Green Lands is comprised of—

97 acres approximately, added under Section 11 of the 1868 Act which gave power to take in and add to the Brown Lands any portion of the Green Lands not exceeding in the whole 100 acres;

60 acres which it became necessary to inclose for military purposes;

39 acres approximately, which are now being added to the Brown Lands with a view to squaring-off the boundaries of the Camp area.

Pursuant to the Military Lands Provisional Orders Confirmation Act 1898, right of firing over and right of user for rifle practice etc. of an area of 352 acres of the Green Lands were acquired. This area, which, for all practical purposes, has been used as Blue Lands since 1898 is being so designated for the purpose of the new Act.

The 1868 Act also provided for the constitution of three Commissioners to ascertain what rights of pasture, rights of way or other rights (except the rights of the Crown) existed in, over, or affecting the Curragh or any part thereof either by grant charter or prescription, to establish the ownership on those rights and the lands over which they were exercisable and what com pensation (if any) should be given to any party whose rights might be injuriously affected by the Act.

The award of the Commissioners, which was made in 1869 was embodied in, and confirmed by, the 1870 Act. The award, among other things, listed the persons whose claims to rights of common of pasture were allowed and set out the number of sheep which each such person was entitled to graze. Many claims were disallowed or allowed only in part.

The law officers have advised that, since 1922, the Curragh Acts have been largely obsolete and the present Bill is designed to remedy that position while at the same time preserving the various rights in respect of the Curragh which existed prior to 1922.

One of the most important provisions in the Bill is that dealing with inclosure (Section 11). In this connection the racing authorities have been concerned for a considerable time that the grazing of sheep has impaired the race tracks and gallops at the Curragh as a consequence of which owners and trainers have been reluctant to run valuable horses thereon. Efforts to remedy the position by the application of fertilisers to improve the pasture merely resulted in a greater concentration of sheep on the areas involved and the racing authorities have urged that the only solution to the problem lies in the inclosure of the racecourse area. In order to enable such inclosure to be effected they have undertaken to secure the surrender of a number of sheep-grazing rights commensurate with the area to be inclosed (about 850 acres) on the basis of two such rights per acre. They hope to have this done in time to prepare the race track for the 1962 Derby, which as Senators will be aware, is expected to be the best endowed horse-race in Europe.

Section 1 is the usual "definitions" section.

Section 2 vests in the Minister for Defence the parts of the Curragh not already so vested: following the proposed vesting the administration of the entire Curragh will be a function of the Minister for Defence. The Minister's ownership will, however, be subject to existing leases, tenancies, etc., and the rights-of way, rights of common of pasture and other rights specified in the 1870 Act.

Sections 3, 7 and 8 are merely reenactments, in modern terms, and with appropriate adjustments to meet present-day requirements, of the corresponding Sections of the 1868 Act.

Section 4 specifies, in modern terms, the uses which the Minister may make of the Blue Lands for military purposes. The powers of the Minister under Section 34 (1) of the Defence Act, 1954, are limited by this section inasmuch as the erection of permanent buildings on the Blue Lands is prohibited. This limitation derives from the fact that the right of common of pasture extends over the Blue Lands. Section 34 (1) of the Defence Act, 1954, provides that the Minister for Defence may use any land vested in or occupied by him for such purposes connected with his powers and duties under that Act and in such manner as he thinks proper.

Section 5 prescribes the uses which the Minister may make from time to time of the Green Lands. The Green Lands are the main sheep grazing area and while the 1868 Act gave the British Secretary of State for War some rights over these lands, his powers in regard to them were much more limited than in the case of either the Camp or the Blue Lands.

Section 6 provides for the lodging of copies of the new "deposited map" in the Central Office of the High Court and in the local circuit court office. It also deals with the purchase of copies of the map.

Section 9 exempts the county roads on the Curragh from the operation of this Bill save in the matter of vesting (Section 2), the power to close the county road through the Camp in an emergency (Section 3) and the power to lay sewers, cables, pipes, etc. (Section 7).

Section 10 acknowledges and preserves the rights of sheep grazing over the Blue Lands and Green Lands making it clear that those rights do not extend to the Camp or to other parts of the Curragh leased or let for special purposes.

Section 11 which, as I have said, is one of the most important sections of the Bill enables a part or parts of the Curragh to be inclosed and fenced to the exclusion of sheep but the exercise of this power is made contingent on the prior voluntary surrender and extinguishment of grazing rights commensurate with the area proposed to be inclosed. At present the number of sheep (7,957) is somewhat less than twice the number of acres available for sheep grazing.

Section 12 deals with the publication of notice in the press of intention to inclose.

Section 13 enables the Minister to exclude or authorise the exclusion temporarily, of sheep from parts of the Curragh while race-meetings, carnivals, exhibitions, competitions or other such functions are being held.

Sections 14 and 15 provide for the preservation of existing contracts, agreements, leases, tenancies, etc. and for the continuation of legal proceedings which may be pending.

Section 16 enables the Minister to make bye-laws in relation to the Curragh and provides for penalties in respect of breaches.

Section 17 repeals the 1868 Act completely and Sections 4, 5 and 6 of the 1870 Act. The other sections of the 1870 Act are retained in order to keep in force the award scheduled to that Act, which constitutes a statutory record of the grazing rights.

Section 18 is the usual expenses section and Section 19 is the short title.

I hope that these points of explanation will help Senators to understand any matters of difficulty and I will be glad, when concluding, to deal with any other questions which may arise on the Bill.

Mr. L'Estrange

We welcome this Bill and are in favour of its early implementation. The Bill is designed, first, to achieve the purpose of having unified control exercised by the Minister and his Department in contrast to the dual control operating at present between the Department of Finance and the Department of Defence. Both have had responsibility for certain aspects of the administration of the Curragh since 1922. I am in favour of unified control. The second object is to preserve the existing rights particularly the right of common pasturage, in respect of the Curragh, while at the same time giving power to the Minister to issue a licence to the racing authorities to inclose, if necessary, a larger portion of the Curragh for racing. When it is thus inclosed, it can be properly treated by the Turf Club to make it fit for racing, particularly during dry weather.

It is agreed by everybody that the Curragh is the cradle and home of Irish racing. It is a most important property in the economic life not only of County Kildare but of the whole country. It is in the unique position that it contains our principal military establishment, is the headquarters of the racing industry, and at least 80 per cent. of the trainers reside and train their horses on the Curragh. It would be no exaggeration to say that at least 90 per cent. of the horses trained in Ireland are galloped on the Curragh.

At the same time, the Curragh has been subject to the rights of common pasturage and, as the Minister told us, something over 7,000 sheep are grazed there annually. We all agree that many interests have to be protected. It would be very hard to please everybody in this Bill, but the Minister is going a long way to try to meet the wishes of all. We all understand the importance of the racing industry to our economy, the vital place it holds in our exports and the amount of employment it gives, more especially in the Curragh but also throughout the country. Irish horses and Irish horsemen have brought honour and renown to our country.

Mr. O'Quigley

And Irish horsewomen, too.

Mr. L'Estrange

And Irish horsewomen, too. Anything that can be done to comply with the wishes of the Turf Club in connection with next year's big race meeting, should be done. I am sure that is one of the reasons the Minister has introduced this Bill. Next year's Irish Sweepstakes Derby will be one of the most valuable, if not the most valuable, to be run in Europe. That is something to be proud of. It is expected horses will come from England, Germany, France and America. Who knows but perhaps even Mr. Khrushchev might be in racing mood by then and send over a "flyer" or a "sputnik" to compete. In order to maintain the very high reputation of Irish bloodstock, it is necessary to ensure that the premier flat racecourse will measure up to the very high standard that will be demanded.

In the past, the Turf Club have had the right to fence off only a small area of the course, while the remainder has been wide open. It was a commonage, sheep could be grazed in it and caravans and travellers with horses could be on it. In other words, the Turf Club had no control over the major part of the racecourse. As the Minister quite correctly told us, when they put extra fertiliser on the course, it only meant more sheep grazed on it and that it was trampled even more. The purpose of the Bill is to give the racing authorities control over the entire racecourse so they may ensure that, no matter what the conditions are, horses can race without any fear of harm.

That is very important. As one who has an odd flutter on a racecourse, I know that in certain dry periods of the year the fields at the Curragh have been very small. The Turf Club could not be blamed because they had not control over the entire course. If they have complete control over the entire course and can fence it in, sufficient grass covering can be provided in dry weather to enable horses to race in proper conditions.

The Curragh enjoys a very high reputation. The Irish horse enjoys an even higher one. Next year, we will have one of the richest races in Europe at the Curragh, thanks to the generosity of the Hospitals Trust. For that reason, this Bill should have a speedy passage so that the racing authorities can take full advantage of the short time between now and next June to put the racecourse into the state in which we should all like to see it.

The present condition of the Curragh is a disgrace. There is scutch grass, gorse and furze growing all over it. Governments are always appealing to the farmers to improve their lands. It is often said that the Irish farmer is a conservative man, slow to adopt new methods and make improvements. The best method of teaching is by example and there is room for an excellent example to be given now in relation to the Curragh. Perhaps the Minister would consider giving control of this area to the Agricultural Institute. Certainly the furze and gorse should be removed forthwith and the fertility of the soil improved. If that is done, the farmers who have rights there will gain. It is said that the Curragh grazes only two sheep to the acre. Reasonably good land should carry four sheep.

We are in favour of the Bill and we will do everything we can to ensure its speedy implementation. All of us would like to see the Curragh as an area which will give edification to those who pass through it.

Mr. Ted O'Sullivan

When I was a small boy, I heard about the Curragh in both song and story. Over 40 years ago, when I first saw it, I was very disappointed. To a man coming from a mountainy area, it represented a huge plain, but unfortunately a wasted plain. I have become better acquainted with it in the years that have gone and I have never been able to understand why it was permitted to remain in the condition in which it was. I made enquiries about it and I discovered that it appeared to be nobody's business. War broke out in 1939 and we compelled the people to till a certain percentage of their holdings. The Curragh was left untouched. Some people told me the land was no good; it would not grow anything. I drove round it several times and I noticed adjoining land producing excellent crops. I found it hard to understand why the Government did not take some steps to take control of the entire Curragh.

We have this Bill now and I presume this Bill will give that control to the Government. I understand certain rights are preserved in the Bill and that may cause some confusion. The Minister put it on record that the Curragh grazes less than two sheep to the acre. I hope it will not go forth that the largest plain in Ireland grazes less than two sheep to the acre. I wonder is the Minister taking enough control in this Bill? Possibly this is merely a beginning. I should like to see some of the existing rights extinguished. It should not cost much to buy out rights on land that can graze only a sheep and a bit to the acre. This is the most famous plain we have. I am in complete agreement with every word uttered by Senator L'Estrange.

Mr. L'Estrange

I am surprised at that.

Mr. Ted O'Sullivan

Surprised? That shows how often the Senator is wrong. We are proud of our racing industry; I hope we shall be even more proud of it in the future. Anything we can do to improve the position will, I hope, be done. We are grateful to the Turf Club and the Hospitals Trust and the other interests concerned for what they are doing in relation to the Curragh. I pass through this area twice in the week and it always pains me to see the furze and the gorse growing all over it. It is inexcusable. Something should have been done in the past 20 years to improve the condition there. Perhaps the Minister will now make a move in that direction. Whatever Government Department moves in, the sheep grazers will not object anyhow. A good move was made four or five years ago by the Department of Defence on the land at Kilworth. The gorse that covered that land was removed but nothing has been done since. They did not even sow grass seeds and that is an eyesore on the main road. The good work that was started should be continued.

The inferior pasture at the Curragh can be improved. It is a scandal to see the quality of the grass on Government property. If this Bill does not give the Government sufficient power to make the Curragh what it should be, a national showpiece for the people coming from all over the world next year for this famous race, something should be done to ensure that it will not be an eyesore and that people will leave with a better opinion of the Irish people than they would have if they spent a couple of days at the Curragh in its present condition. If sufficient power is not provided in this Bill, I trust the Government will look for the authority later.

Mr. O'Grady

I have been interested in some of the suggestions made in this debate in regard to removing eyesores from the Curragh. Some 20 years ago, an attempt was made to have these eyesores removed but at that time the military opposed the suggestion put forward. I was in charge of the Board of Works at the time and I had to pull in my horns. It would not be permitted but I hope the Minister who is now in charge of the military end of it will be able to carry out the necessary work to make the Curragh more pleasant to look upon than it is in its present state of neglect, neglect in the sense in which any ordinary farmer passing the Curragh must regard it.

I do not believe that the carrying capacity of that land in Kildare should be limited to one or two ewes or one or two sheep. Without great expense to the State, that land could be made to carry at least treble that number. It could have been done at the time the Racing Board, or whoever it was, had the novel idea of fertilising the racing strips. They left the rest of the Curragh without one ounce of fertiliser. The sheep had more intelligence because when the fertiliser was put down, they grazed barer than ever the spots that were fertilised. The whole thousand acres of the Curragh could be fertilised without any loss to the State with the extra grazing that could be provided and the extra sheep that could be carried on the land. Some small rent could be charged for it and the State recouped for the expense involved in spreading the fertiliser.

I do not believe there is any bad land in the Curragh. There is neglected land, land that could be brought back to fertility at a very little cost. I do hope it will be found possible to have the furze bulldozed and the land made suitable for grazing. It may be the military have a valid reason for their objections. I did not question their authority at that time. I merely bowed to the powers that be. They had all the power and I had none.

I should like to say a word on behalf of the people who have grazing rights there. I never met one of them in my life but I know they are industrious people, mostly Wicklow men, who at certain seasons of the year remove their sheep down to the Curragh. I hope these men's rights will be safeguarded. Furthermore, I hope when these powers are conferred on the Minister, the necessary steps will be taken to bring the Curragh into line with the onward march of the nation, endeavouring to get the farmers to improve their land.

While I am on the subject, may I say that public bodies are notorious for neglecting land? If the ordinary person does not destroy the noxious weeds on his land, he is prosecuted and probably fined. I should like to have a test case brought against Dublin Corporation, the biggest authority in the country, for their criminal neglect of some of the best land in Ireland which I pass every time I come here. I refer to the land at Finglas just beside the E.S.B. station where some of the finest land in this country is to be found. You would imagine at a distance it was covered with furze but it is a weed known in Irish as buachallán. It is deadly poison if eaten by cattle or sheep. Yet the civic fathers in Dublin are looking at that. When the seeds ripen, they are blown all over the countryside poisoning people's land. It is not fair to those people and it is not fair to ratepayers living in that vicinity, some of whom have complained to me on the subject. I do hope there will be a noble example set in the Curragh and that we shall see fertility on all sides instead of ragwort and other noxious weeds.

Professor Quinlan

I should like to welcome this Bill. It does appear that the amount of land being inclosed, around 1,000 acres, is rather small for the headquarters of racing here. I believe that, with the increased facilities in regard to the transport of horses, this country could expand considerably its bloodstock industry. Not only could it sell the yearlings, the raw material, as it were, but there would actually appear to be a market in America for trained horses. I have seen the large tracks there and, like Senator L'Estrange, I spent a few months on them. It seems that with the prices being paid for horses in America, the scarcity there and the high cost of training, we could have a considerable expansion here.

Before the Minister takes any further steps in regard to the Curragh, I should like to feel that the possibilities for a great expansion in our bloodstock industry have been gone into. I have a feeling that, perhaps, the ploughing and so forth of parts of the plains might render them less suitable for bloodstock training in the future. It might be necessary, in place of the 1,000 acres, to have 2,000 acres or more.

I agree that it should not be left in the semi-derelict condition in which it is at present. A forward-looking plan for our bloodstock industry should be quickly drawn-up—a plan which would quickly bring all that can be made available of the Curragh plains into full production. In that regard, the Agricultural Institute could well be brought in to make that portion of the Curragh a showpiece.

Seán Ó Donnabháin rose.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I called upon Senator O'Quigley.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I should like to give way to the Senator because he may give me material to use further arguments against him.

Professor Hayes

This is not a matter of argument. We are all in agreement on this. The Senator should not disturb the harmony.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I have no intention of disturbing the harmony. I should like to ask the Minister a few questions in regard to the present position of the Curragh. Reference was made to green, brown and blue areas. I should like to know the extent of the portion of the Curragh which is being allocated to the Racing Board. There are runs besides the racecourse proper. That is really the best portion of the land.

Let me emphasise what the other speakers said in reference to the fact that when going through the Curragh, you feel you are travelling through a derelict place. The whole appearance of the Curragh area is derelict, both to the right and left of the main road as you proceed towards Kildare. There are portions of the Curragh which appear worse still. I refer to those portions on the back road by the military camp. It is a pity that the whole area of the Curragh should have been left in this condition for so long.

In future, under whose control will the Curragh be? Will it be entirely under the control of the Minister, the personnel of his Department and the Army or will it be partly under the control of the Board of Works, as we heard it was when Senator O'Grady was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance? This dual control was a bogey then and it may continue.

I assume that the fencing of the Racing Board section will be such that sheep can be grazed inside the Racing Board section of the Curragh. I do not know of anything that would add more to the texture of the sward than to have sheep grazing on it. Facilities could be afforded for the removal of those animals when tests for racing took place.

Why did they leave the furze there at all? The sheep lie down in the shelter of those furze bushes in winter time and when the snow comes. The furze was of some use but it could not be anything like the service which would be rendered by thorn bushes, ornamental trees or even poplars which could be grown along the Curragh. They would be far better than the furze. The furze can convey no other impression but an impression of complete dereliction.

The main road could be made spectacular. At the same time provision could be made to have shelter for animals other than the shelter, which is probably usefully provided sometimes, for the sheep grazing there at present. Everybody will agree that two sheep per acre is a colossal waste of land. If they had it in Connemara or West Cork, look what they could do with it. It has been said already that what is everybody's business is apparently nobody's business. Let us hope, now that the matter is being taken in hands by the Minister, that by this time 12 months, the improvement in this area will be evident.

Senator O'Grady referred to the question of noxious weeds. I thought he was out of order at the time.

Mr. Carter

Completely out of order, as far as I can see.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Tipperary have beaten Cork but they have not saved the hay yet. Travelling to Tipperary by train, one can see——

Professor Hayes

Tipperary is not on the Curragh.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

One can see every few miles field after field covered with thistles and buachalláin.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There are none on the Curragh, as far as I know.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

That is what I say.

Mr. O'Quigley

They do not arise on this Bill.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

They do not grow on this Bill.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I introduced this facetiously. I thought that when it was referred to by Senator O'Grady, I would be permitted——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I allowed him a little liberty but because one Senator gets a little liberty, it should not be made the subject of a debate.

Professor Hayes

After all, Finglas is nearer to us than Tipperary.

Mr. O'Quigley

Having regard to the roundabout way in which Senator Ó Donnabháin would reach it, it is not.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Will I be allowed to finish what I am saying? You would not allow the same facilities to pass from the O'Grady to the Ó Donnabháin. My principal question relates to the extent of the Curragh which is being allocated to the Racing Board and the facilities which we hope will be provided for the Derby next year. As Senator O'Grady said, the sheep showed better sense when the place was fertilised. I hope that the grazing facilities provided at the Curragh will be sufficient to ensure that there will not be two sheep to the acre.

I should also like to know how is the grazing on the Curragh set. Is there a perpetual right of some sheepowners to graze their animals or is it set annually? I believe it is not set annually, but I am comparing it with the Phoenix Park which is in charge of the Board of Works and the grazing is set annually for cattle. As far as I can judge, the Curragh is set under a different system and there are owners with permanent rights of grazing. The point I am coming to is that if the Department of Defence improves the conditions of the Curragh for the maintenance and sustenance of sheep it should be fully utilised. They should have a park ranger, perhaps a retired member of the Defence Forces, to supervise the whole question of the utility——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister mentioned in his brief that there is a ranger and an assistant ranger.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I did not catch that when he said it. My final remark is that when the grazing has been perfected, it should be utilised to the greatest extent for the benefit of those who have grazing there and the benefit of the nation generally.

Mr. O'Quigley

This is a Bill on which I can adopt an attitude of complete neutrality. Unlike Senator L'Estrange, the Minister and Senator Quinlan, who seem to have a particular interest in horse racing, I have not, but I am interested in the Bill and I can view it dispassionately. The Bill has nothing new in it, except Section 11. It would have been far better if the Minister had introduced the section which authorises him to take over certain parts of the land not already vested in the Minister for Defence, with Section 11. Then the picture would be a great deal clearer. This Bill relates to the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1868, and part of the 1870 Act which has to be continued as it confirms the findings of the Commission set up to find out who had rights of common and the extent of these rights. The Schedule to the 1870 Act is a very lengthy Schedule and contains a great number of names and addresses. You find that some people have the right of common of pasture for as few as one sheep.

I should be glad if the Minister would tell us how the figure of 7,000 compares with the allowable number of sheep which may be grazed on the basis of the findings of the Commission in 1869. That would give us some idea of the use to which the Curragh is now being put compared with the use to which it was put in 1869 when the Commission sat. The Bill does nothing which will enable the Minister or any other State body to improve one blade of grass in regard to the present condition of the Curragh.

The only thing which the Bill permits is that under Section 11 the Minister is authorised to inclose certain parts of the Curragh, if the persons who have grazing rights consent, but if there is one man, with even one sheep, who says he will not agree then, like the old Diet of Worms, he can say no and that is the end of the project because there is no compulsion in the Bill in this regard or power of compulsion or any compensation provisions. Therefore, if the racing authorities to which the Minister refers are unable to persuade one recalcitrant person with the right to graze one sheep, they can whistle. The Minister seems to shake his head.

Mr. K. Boland

They will not be able to inclose half an acre less.

Mr. O'Quigley

I do not know about that because the right of common of pasture extends over a great area. My recollection is that people have rights over particular strips of lands which may include several acres. However, the Bill, apart from that, does not give the Minister or any other State authority any right to do anything substantial in the way of changing soil fertility of the Curragh. It seems to be a remarkable position that for 90 years, if my understanding is correct, no part of the Curragh lands has been ploughed. I am not an agricultural expert but I think it is accepted that land which has been grazed for such a long period, and which has been left untilled, is ripe for acquisition by the Land Commission on the grounds that the land is not being properly worked. No farmer who had his land in that condition for so long could resist an order by the Land Commission to acquire it compulsorily for the purpose of distribution.

It should be appreciated that when the British Parliament, which would have had no great concern for the Irish farmer or Irish land, was enacting the 1868 Act, they did not have the same knowledge regarding the necessity for tillage in order to keep land in good heart. Since that kind of knowledge came to our shores, some steps should have been taken, if necessary, by the compulsory buying out of the grazing rights, to make this land available for tillage. These 300 acres should not have been allowed to lie fallow for such a long time. There is nothing in the Bill which will enable the Minister for Defence to do anything in that regard. While in the ordinary course of events, I have every concern for the small man, even the man with one sheep, I think there are circumstances which warrant the Government paying proper compensation.

Mr. Carter

There are not many on the Curragh.

Mr. O'Quigley

There are.

Mr. Carter

There are not many men with one sheep.

Mr. O'Quigley

There are some with two, three or five. At any rate, while I would stand for the man with the right to graze one sheep, there are circumstances under which it is right and proper in the interests of the greater good that the power of compulsory acquisition, on payment of suitable compensation, should be sought from Parliament and thereafter exercised. It is a strange business that even after the inconvenience which the gorse and furze were to the Minister for Defence on a foggy afternoon in December, 1957, he has not since taken steps to get rid of the prolific growth of gorse and furze.

Mr. Carter

They have their use there. The Senator would not appreciate that.

Mr. O'Quigley

They were a great comfort to certain people on a foggy afternoon in 1957 and a great embarrassment to the Minister for Defence.

Mr. Carter

They have their uses for military purposes.

Mr. O'Quigley

They have, and they were so used and abused at that period.

Professor Hayes

They seem to have their abuses here.

Mr. Carter

The Senator knows nothing much about it.

Mr. O'Quigley

It is to be observed that a committee was established some time pre-1957 to investigate what could be done about these lands and how they could be fertilised. The Minister for Defence in the Dáil said that that committee has not reported yet. That is a great piece of nonsense. One would imagine from that kind of statement that, since 1957 or an earlier date, the committee had, day and night, been worrying their brains, inspecting this, examining reports, devising new plans, amending them, and so on, and all the time working on the matter. How many times and for how many hours has that committee met and can the Minister put some "jiz" into it to make it report soon so that the position of the state of the common which everybody condemns will be rectified at an earlier date?

There is nothing in the Bill that was not contained in the operative provisions of the 1868 and the 1870 Acts, but there is one thing that perhaps the Minister will be able to say something about at this stage. There is a reference in Section 4 to the effect that the Minister for Defence shall not erect, or authorise or procure the erection of, permanent buildings on the Blue Lands. Then in Section 7 the Minister for Defence is permitted to do a whole lot of works.

I should like the Minister to consider whether it is necessary to define "permanent buildings". It seems to me that in some of the statues which one comes across from time to time a thing such as a manhole which the Minister is authorised to lay or to build could be regarded as a permanent building. There are also such things as electrical transformers which are erected from time to time and which could also be interpreted as being included in the phrase "permanent buildings". I think perhaps it might be desirable to clarify what is intended by "permanent buildings", so that the authorities having charge of these lands in future will not feel inhibited in the kinds of necessary structures they have to erect on the Curragh lands.

The Minister might deal with Section 13. The rights to common of pasture are being retained under this Bill but the Minister for Defence may apparently from time to time exclude sheep from particular portions by the erection of temporary fences. Is it intended that the temporary fences shall be for prolonged periods? Will they have any effect on the rights to common of pasture of persons entitled to them at the Curragh or will it be a matter of only a few days? If it is only a matter of days, it does not arise. In relation to State matters, things that are said to be temporary, like temporary appointments, can last for 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. Temporary fences erected by the Minister could well last for that period, if the material could stand up to the weather.

Mr. K. Boland

I am thankful to Senators for the manner in which they have dealt with this Bill. I think it has met with general agreement. That is understandable, in view of the main purpose of the Bill which is to facilitate the Racing Board in their efforts to ensure that the Curragh racecourse will be of a standard appropriate to the best-endowed flat race in Europe which will be held in the Curragh next year. I welcome the tributes which were paid to the generous contribution of the Hospitals Trust in so endowing that race and to the efforts of the Racing Board to ensure its success.

The main point that was raised during the discussion was the state of fertility of the land at the Curragh. As has been mentioned during the debate, an inter-Departmental committee was set up in 1957 to investigate the problem of improving the fertility of the Curragh land. It is not such an easy problem as some people appear to think. Undoubtedly, the land could be fertilised and could be made more productive but the terms of reference given to the committee were that this should be done at no ultimate cost to the State. The people with grazing rights there would, I am sure, be very happy to have that land improved so as to improve its carrying capacity but the question of who would reap the benefit of the improved fertility would be another matter.

I understand that the committee have their report ready and that it is merely being withheld as some minor changes will be required in it due to the passing of this Bill. I do not know that it is a fact that the Curragh can graze only two sheep to the acre. There is some reason to believe that there have been a greater number of sheep at times on the Curragh than there were rights existing for them. The 1870 Act which allocated these rights did so on the basis of the area of land in the vicinity of the Curragh that was owned by the different people who had rights, rather than by any advertence to the actual carrying capacity of the Curragh. This system of grazing in common is mediaeval. While the rights are held in that way, it is not a simple thing to improve the fertility and to see that the land is productively used. However, the committee's report will soon be available and the question of improving the fertility of the land will then be gone into.

Senator O'Grady said that the military opposed the removal of the furze at one stage when it was proposed to do something about it. It is a fact that the Minister for Defence has certain rights over the whole Curragh area. The plains of the Curragh are used and can be used for the exercising of military troops, the carrying out of tactical exercises and other such exercises. If we have an Army, we must have somewhere to exercise them. The only suitable place for carrying out certain large scale exercises is the Curragh and, in the carrying out of such exercises, the cover provided by furze, and so on, is of great advantage. I can see that there would possibly be some military objection at least to the complete eradication of the furze.

Senators may take it that I fully agree that everything possible should be done to raise the general fertility of the Curragh lands, and to ensure that they make a better contribution to the economy of the country than they do at the moment. It is a rather complex problem and, as Senator O'Quigley has said, this Bill does nothing in that respect.

I am not in a position to say exactly how near to the main roadway the portion to be inclosed will be. I understand what is intended is that the present racecourse area will be inclosed. That, I think, would bring the fences fairly close to the road. Senator Ó Donnabháin hoped that the type of fencing would permit grazing of this inclosed area, but the whole purpose of the fences is to exclude sheep.

Mr. L'Estrange

I think he meant the area inside the actual racecourse.

Mr. K. Boland

The arrangments made for the grazing of that area will be a matter for the Racing Authorities. Sheep belonging to people who have grazing rights in common in the whole area at the moment will not be able to penetrate into the area that will be inclosed.

Sean Ó Donnabháin

What I had in mind was that the sheep would not be crossing the road beside the boundary. I was thinking of the danger of sheep being killed crossing the road.

Mr. K. Boland

I do not know if this Bill will have any effect on that. The number of grazing rights at the moment is the same as it was in 1870, that is, 7,957. Senator O'Quigley raised the point that if one man disagreed to a voluntary surrender of his rights, the whole of Section 11 would be ineffective. That is not so because we have to get only a certain number of rights. So long as we get sufficient rights to cover the 850 acres it is intended to inclose, that acreage can in fact be inclosed. Even the man who has the right to graze only one sheep on the Curragh has that right extended over the Curragh as a whole, and not in connection with any one single strip. The right is to graze the Curragh in common, that is, the total area of Green and Blue land. On the basis of two sheep to the acre, 850 acres would require the extinguishing of 1,700 grazing rights. If they could get only 1,699 rights, they could inclose only 849½ acres. That would be the only effect of failure to get the surrender of the full number of rights.

There is, of course, nothing in this Bill to permit the compulsory buying out of the rights of grazing. It is possible that that may be the only solution to the problem of improving the fertility of the Curragh. Something like that may have to be done, but it is not proposed to be done in this Bill.

I cannot see the conflict between Section 4 and Section 7. Section 7 authorises the Minister to lay sewers, drains, water pipes, electric, telegraphic, telephone and other cables and pipes under, on or over the ground. It is straining it beyond reason to suggest that because Section 4 prohibits the erection of permanent buildings, it may, in fact, prohibit the provision of such things as manholes in the construction of sewers.

The provision in Section 13 with regard to temporary exclusion would be a matter of one or two days. There is no intention, at any rate, of exclusion under that section for any lengthy period. It would be used only in connection with such things as road races which occasionally take place. Senator Ó Donnabháin raised another point about how the grazing is set. The grazing is not set. The 1870 Act confirmed certain rights which people had for a long time to graze sheep there, and those rights are tied to the lands they owned.

I do not think any other point was raised that I should deal with and I ask the Seanad to agree to the Second Reading of the Bill.

Mr. O'Quigley

Would the Minister indicate, when he refers to the racing authority, to what body is he referring? Is it the Turf Club or the Racing Board?

Mr. K. Boland

The Racing Board.

Mr. O'Quigley

That is the statutory authority.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill considered in Committee.

Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 4.

Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. O'Quigley

I am still not satisfied that the Minister has dealt satisfactorily with the position in regard to permanent buildings. What is the Minister's conception of "permanent buildings"? If he wants to put up some kind of movable structure attached temporarily to the land, does he feel he is authorised to exercise power for that purpose under Section 34 of the Defence Act? I am not trying to limit the Minister's powers. On the contrary, I think the Minister in the exercise of his powers under the Defence Act should not feel limited in any way. He should know quite clearly what he is entitled to do. One view that might be taken of a structure or a hut would be that it was temporarily fixed to the ground, and on the other hand his Departmental advisers might say it a later stage to the Army authorities that it was a permanent building. There might be a conflict between what the Army authorities feel they require and what the administration of the Department feel could be done by the Minister. I wonder if the position is clear?

Mr. K. Boland

This section applies to the Blue Lands, that is, the lands commonly known as the rifle ranges in the Curragh. The Minister for Defence has certain rights over those lands but the graziers, the people who have the right to graze their sheep on the Curragh, also have the right to graze over those Blue Lands. Therefore, the Minister for Defence has not got the right to erect a structure there permanently but, if during range practices that might last for a week or so, it was considered necessary to erect a temporary structure to provide shelter for troops, or something like that, that would be permitted but the structure would have to be removed when the range practices would be over so as to restore the free grazing for the sheep over the Blue Lands.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 5 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 10.

Question proposed: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill".

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I cannot refer back to the Act of 1870 in connection with the right of grazing on the Curragh but when we are dealing with the present situation there, I fancy the Act must be out of date, that the right is hereditary coming down from 1870 to the present day. I do not know whether it is the owners of the land in proximity to the Curragh or their successors to whom the allocation for grazing is given or is it in virtue of the land being there? I do not know whether anything can be done under this Bill about this question of setting land in perpetuity, more or less, or about this perpetual right to grazing. Do these people pay for the grazing? I am thinking of the Phoenix Park for the purpose of comparison.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I am afraid the Wicklow men have permanent rights there.

Mr. K. Boland

They are not necessarily Wicklow men. It is a hereditary right, if you like, attaching to the lands of those people who in 1868 owned certain lands in the vicinity of the Curragh. These rights have existed since the disestablishment of the monastic institutions in Ireland and the 1868 Act authorised the setting up of commissioners to investigate the various claims that existed. They allowed some of the claims and disallowed others. The final award was that there were 7,957 sheep entitled to be grazed in different numbers by different people. They were allowed on the basis of the area of land in the vicinity of the Curragh owned by these people, on the basis of one sheep per Irish acre of land in the possession of the particular person. That appears to me to have been the basis. These are rights that the people claimed to have existed almost from time immemorial and if it is people from Wicklow who are actually putting the sheep there at the moment they must be doing it by arrangement with the people who own the land in the vicinity of the Curragh and, therefore, own so many rights for the grazing of sheep on the Curragh plains.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Na daoine sin go bhfuil féarach caorach aca anois agus go n-imeoidh 850 acra óna smacht nó óna n-úsáid, an bhfuil aon choinne ag an Aire le éileamh de chúiteamh ó na daoine sin toisc an méid a bhéas caillte aca nuair a bhainfear díobh an 850 acra? Ceist í sin a thagann chomh fada le cúirt dlí uairfea eannta agus ba mhaith liom go mbeadh an bóthar glanta roimhe sin chun go bhfeicimís an mbeidh aon éileamh damáiste nó éileamh chun chúiteamh ó na daoine sin ar son an 850 acra atá le baint díobh.

Caoimhghín Ó Beoláin

Níl coinne dá leithéid agam. D'réir comhairle na dlíodóirí, tá sé de cheart ag an duine gur leis go bunúsach an talamh claí do chur timpal ar chuid de. Mar a dúras, ní thabharfar cead don Bhord Rásaíochta an méid talún atá luaite a fháil muna n-éireoidh leo go leor daoine d'fháil chun na ceartanna a thabhairt suas don Aire Cosanta. Tá mé lán sásta go mbeidh go leor talamh féaraigh fágtha don na daoine eile.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Go raibh míle maith agat.

Mr. O'Quigley

I think the Minister is correct in what he said about the nature of these rights. There is the right of common of pasture, what is known to lawyers as profit à prendre appurtenant to certain holdings of land. The manner in which these rights were determined in 1868 was on the basis of long user by the persons who claimed to have sheep there for upwards of 30 years. I do not agree with the Minister that if a man had a right which was on the basis of one sheep per Irish acre that at the present time you can simply take in one acre for every two sheep that a man has a right to graze because the right to graze is a right which extends over the whole of the Curragh.

Mr. K. Boland

No.

Mr. O'Quigley

That is what the Minister has said, that it extends over the whole of the Curragh, and if it extends over the whole of the Curragh every one of the persons who have the 7,957 sheep are entitled to say in regard to any part of the Curragh being taken over, "I do not agree to extinguishing my right to have my sheep grazed on that particular part. That is the most luscious part and my sheep always grazed there and throve very well on it." That, I believe is the true position but, of course, it is quite clear that the fellow with one sheep and even the fellow with 57 sheep is not going to be able to argue that point in any Court because pitting his rights and his money against the Racing Board or against the Minister for Defence would be a rather profitless pastime for him.

We are doing less than justice in Section 10 and Section 11. It would be far better to make a clean sweep and to say to all the people there that if they agree to extinguish their rights they will be paid so much for them. It would be far better to deal with the position in this way and, if necessary, to enact that the findings of the Commission which were confirmed by the 1870 Act would be modified to that extent, that persons could be compulsorily bought out if they objected. That would be a far better way. I can see quite an amount of difficulty arising for the Minister and for the Racing Board under Section 10 and Section 11, if passed. But if the Minister is happy in that situation, I do not see why I should disturb his contentment.

Mr. K. Boland

I should make it clear that nobody will suffer by this. This clearly provides that there will be sufficient land still left for the number of grazing rights remaining. It is quite clear that the basic owner of the common may inclose portion of it, so long as, beyond all doubt, he leaves sufficient pasture uninclosed for the remaining owners of rights. I am quite satisfied that is the position and, as I say, nobody will have any lesser amount of grazing left to him than he has at the moment.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 11 to 19, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.