Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Aug 1961

Vol. 54 No. 19

Tourist Traffic Bill, 1961 — Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Professor Quinlan

In common with other Senators, I welcome this Bill to extend the amount of Government aid given to Bord Fáilte. We are all aware of the excellent work done by the Board but it appears to many of us that the funds at its disposal are far too limited for the gigantic task it has to undertake. My criticism of the Bill is that the amount suggested is altogether too low. It proposes £5,000,000 over seven years or £700,000 per annum. The aid does not advance or increase as the results increase. I should hope that there would be a progressive increase in the funds of Bord Fáilte, depending on the percentage increase shown in the net tourist income in the period, and I think, with any reasonable prospects, for the next five years, we should far exceed the figure suggested by the Minister.

The picture may look promising. We are all aware in a superficial way of the increased tourist traffic. We see more tourists around, more tourist buses, and we read a great deal in the newspapers about records being broken at Dublin Airport and elsewhere in the air lifting of tourists. That is all to the good, but we have to get back to the facts and figures. The facts and figures do not bear out this very rosy position. These are given in the latest report issued by the Irish Tourist Board for the year ending 31st March, 1960. They give very striking percentages, as calculated by the O.E.E.C., of the increase in tourist returns in certain countries.

We find that in the 1955/58 period the average percentage yearly increase is highest in Austria, with 34 per cent.; West Germany is next with 21 per cent.; Italy, 19 per cent.; France, 10 per cent.; Britain, eight per cent.; Ireland, four per cent.; and Switzerland, two per cent. The Swiss figure of two per cent. can be written off due to the already very highly developed state of tourism in Switzerland. I do not think anyone here can feel happy about the lowly position occupied by Ireland in that table—an increase of four per cent. per annum. Even bringing it up to date with the last two years, the increase is not very much greater—probably of the order of five per cent. on the latest figures available.

This is especially puzzling when we consider at the same time the heavy emigration there has been from here— far heavier than from any other of the countries listed. We are aware of the emigrants returning for holidays here, and consequently you would expect that, of itself, should make a considerable increase in tourist traffic. But what do we find? The table as given in the Irish Banking Review of March, 1960, shows—Table 2, page 12—that the visitors from England have been increasing at the rate of about 30,000 per annum. At the same time, even the most conservative estimate of emigration in that period for emigration to Britain would at least be a figure of 45,000. Consequently, we are scarcely getting what we might expect to get by way of emigrants returning on holidays.

It is likewise in the case of emigration to the United States. The figure for tourists is increasing at 6,000 or 7,000 per annum—I think it is 9,000 in the last report—and emigration has been running at between 4,000 and 5,000 a year. Consequently, no great increase is shown. More disturbing still is this. The Minister quoted in his opening speech the fact that last year tourism from America had increased by ten per cent. It has increased by ten per cent., but the stay here—the number of days per tourist—and the total expenditure per tourist has dropped considerably in recent years as American tourists try to get more and more into their already overcrowded travel programmes. We find the total spent per tourist has dropped from £68 in 1956 to £39 in 1958. Consequently, the increase in the overall total is very slight.

We cannot, therefore, look at those figures with complacancy, although we are aware of the good work done by Bord Fáilte. Some speakers here queried why Ireland was omitted from certain write-ups on travel in some international magazines. We are omitted from some of those simply because Bord Fáilte cannot spend the amount necessary for extensive advertising in those magazines. In fact, it is calculated by Bord Fáilte itself that the total grant available last year, some £500,000, would just be sufficient for about 24 full-page advertisements in some of the leading American and English journals.

We have to see how tourism can be improved. The first thing that strikes us is the very short season we have here. Apart from the efforts to get coarse fishing going and the success in that sphere, there is little else we can show at present in the way of extending the holiday season. The two main extensions should come from within our own country. First, we are all aware that at this very moment, in the heart of the tourist season, most of the employees in our building and other firms are going on their two-weeks' vacation. I take it it is not right that that should be directly in the middle of the holiday season. If the trades concerned and the Government could combine to have that annual holiday period taken in, I would suggest, early June, it would make a considerable contribution to lengthening the holiday period. It would be worth while, I believe, to have even some compensation in the way of some additional holiday later. June is by far the best month here for holidays. The days are longer. There is more sunshine. If the holiday season for our workers could be shifted into June and some compensation given by way of a long week-end at the end of September, or even later, that would be a step in the right direction.

A second cause of overcrowding in our present holiday season is the ridiculous system of holding the children in the national schools until the second week in July. That is wrong from every standpoint. The children are exhausted and from the middle of June to the middle of July, teaching and the general development of the child are rather inefficient. There are schools which close early in June. Their pupils are able to compete quite satisfactorily with the pupils in the national schools who continue until the middle of July. Keeping the children in school so late means that many of our citizens are forced to take their holidays in the very limited period from the middle of July to the 1st September. If the Government really want to improve our tourist traffic, they could do so by ensuring that our schools close not later than 10th June. At the other end, the schools could reopen earlier in the autumn. There could be, too, some compensation by way of a mid-term break in early November after the pattern of schools in the United States of America. That would be more than satisfactory to all.

The Minister stated that we get only one per cent. of the tourist traffic available from Great Britain and he expressed the hope that that could be increased. He thought that if we could get two or three per cent. of that traffic it would be a wonderful boost to our tourist industry. That may be so, but what kind of chaotic situation would we be in if our tourist numbers from Britain suddenly doubled or trebled? At the moment our hotel accommodation is taxed to its uttermost. The latest report shows we have something in the region of 15,000 hoteliers. We have about 2,000 guesthouses and a further 1,200 homes available for tourists, private residences listed with Bord Fáilte.

Assuming an average occupancy for about one-quarter of the year, and I think that is rather high, all those added together could scarcely provide for a quarter of our total tourist traffic. The most that can be catered for is 180,000 to 200,000 people. Where do the rest find accommodation? Many are catered for in houses that are not registered with Bord Fáilte. Many are emigrants returning to their families. How can we increase our accommodation? The target in relation to hotel bedroom accommodation is at the moment 500 extra per annum. At that rate 5,000 would be available in ten years. That would provide for an increase of one-third in hotel accommodation. Assuming the present pattern continues that would provide accommodation for not more than 80,000 to 100,000 extra tourists. We must appreciate, therefore, that there are tourists coming who cannot meet the prices for listed accommodation and who are compelled to seek inferior accommodation. If my estimates are correct, a couple of hundred thousand tourists are using that type of inferior accommodation. There should, therefore, be a big drive made to step up approved accommodation.

Again, I should like to suggest that we strike out in providing unique accommodation. We are trying to be unique in relation to our coarse fishing. We could be more unique still in developing farm family holidays. We are ideally situated to provide that type of holiday. We have our wide open spaces. We have our farms. That development could be a tremendous asset. It would be an advantage to us and an advantage to the tourist. If even five per cent. of our farmers engaged in that tourist extension there would be some 15,000 homes with suitable accommodation listed with Bord Fáilte. That accommodation could be provided more cheaply than hotel bedroom accommodation. I understand the cost of the latter is between £2,000 and £4,000 per bedroom. The additional cost where our farmers are concerned would be only a fraction of that entailed in providing hotel bedroom accommodation.

This development would also provide a suitable opportunity for the employment of farmers' daughters. To-day, there is very little to be done on the farm because of mechanisation and because the poultry industry has turned into a dead loss. Naturally these girls would require a certain type of education. They would need a high degree of perfection in domestic economy. That would be all to the good. It would also solve the problem of the scarcity of young women at the moment to become the farmers' wives of the future. I find this development particularly attractive because it is based on the family. It would provide an outlet for resources that are not fully availed of today. The family car could be rented out to these tourists for short trips. The pony on the farm could be hired. We have all the essentials of what could be a very attractive and distinctively Irish brand of tourism. In this regard I must pay a high tribute to the excellent work being done in Inchigeela by the local people. They have developed Inchigeela as a tourist centre and everyone in the area is co-operating in entertaining tourists and making it a distinctively Irish brand of tourism. I understand the booking there surpassed all expectations this year.

We should, of course, go after our own people in every way possible. It is no use seeing the figures on the plus side of tourism going up if the figures for our own people going abroad for holidays are going up also. In other words, you have Bord Fáilte enticing people to come to stay here and you have Aer Lingus enticing people to take their holidays elsewhere. That is perfectly legitimate competition but we should go after our own people aggressively and make them realise that there is much in this country that is superior to what they can get in other holiday centres in Western Europe and that, above all, it is ridiculous to go on holidays abroad if they have not sampled what is available here at home.

I would appeal to the Minister to give some incentive to Bord Fáilte by matching his promises for the future with increased grants for tourism. If Bord Fáilte can succeed in doubling accommodation in the next two years, then their grant should be at least doubled. If they are given that incentive they will play their part. I would also appeal to the Minister and to the Government to consider carefully the points I have made about lengthening the season.

Mr. Donegan

This is a good Bill, a necessary Bill, in which we extend the guarantees Bord Fáilte may give to people under the State Guarantees Act, and, at the same time, increase the amount of free grants. I do not agree with Senator Quinlan that it is possible to lengthen the holiday period here. Almost everybody wants to take holidays in the first fortnight in August. Maybe people are mistaken—and whether it has any relation to the fact that the Horse Show takes place or other amusements are available during that period or whether it is the best fortnight of the year from the point of view of weather, I do not know—but the fact is that they prefer the first fortnight in August and we cannot do anything about it.

With regard to the number of tourists entering this country, it has been more or less accepted that the figures available are not entirely correct. It is nobody's fault. When there is a high emigration rate and movements back and forward that confuses everything. It is true to say we cannot be sure how many tourists come here in a year. In fact Senator Quinlan did prove that when he pointed out that a great number of the people represented as tourists in the official figures could not have found accommodation on the basis of a twelve weeks' season. Unfortunately our tourists are being compressed into a twelve weeks' season. People in other countries like to take their holidays at certain times of the year as we do and so the holiday season is compressed into a few short weeks defined as high summer.

We must come to a decision as to how we can attract these people. I have the view that, by and large, An TÓstal was a mistake. An TÓstal was established as an extension of the holiday period on the basis of good weather. I do not think we can compete here from the point of view of weather. If we are trying to attract people on that basis we shall not succeed. The people of Britain can go to the Channel Islands or the Continent and we are certainly going against the tide if we try to attract them on the basis of weather. Our main spearhead in the attack should not be that.

Our main spearhead should be the sort of thing that will happen next year when for the first time the Irish Derby will be one of the most valuable races in the world. While it is obvious the Government, through the sort of financing we are doing here today, cannot throw vast sums of money around as prizes for races, golf matches and things like that, I believe that in conjunction with other organisations and in conjunction with large firms advertising such amenities, a great deal can be achieved. A big golf match or a big horse race will bring a large number of people here who will return again because while we may not have the weather we have something nobody else has; we have peace and quiet; we have the peace and quiet the Germans are looking for when they come here and buy places on the Western seaboard.

Another type of tourist is the emigrant who comes on a Flight of the Gaels, an organised flight of, say, a hundred or two hundred people who come from America for an all-Ireland final. However, while that is valuable there is no problem there because our emigrants will return as soon as they possibly can, when they can afford it. These planes and the method of attracting them through our sports is a good one.

Apart from the attractions of horse races or golf matches there are also the other sports we could term hunting, shooting and fishing. The coarse fishing being encouraged by the Inland Fisheries Trust which was instituted by the inter-Party Government is a great step forward. You have only to go through Monaghan and Cavan where these small places encourage tourist fishing, towns like Virginia and so on, to see the number of people from Lancashire and the midlands of Britain who avail of the coarse fishing about which we would not bother our heads. However, they enjoy it and indeed people come from France for it. When they catch their pike they eat it with great gusto. We should make every effort to expand and advance on that front.

If we do expand it should not be on the basis of luxury hotels, but on the basis of comfortable accommodation for which there is a demand among middle-class and working Englishmen, who enjoy a fishing holiday. You will find them along canals sitting on stools—one every ten feet or so. They are there. It is something we have. It is something we can give to them. If we can improve the accommodation and extend it in relation to the small hotels and the commercial hotels in the areas where we have coarse fishing, it will be a good thing. We could also subsidise an occasional contest. These people love contests. That would also be a very good thing which might be done without a large amount of expense.

When one comes to fishing for salmon and trout, it must be realised that there is a great difference between fishing and shooting. Fishing comes out on top. You could lose about 500 boats on the Corrib and you would not do the fish any harm, but were you to put in 500 guns in any area you would shoot out the entire vicinity as they do in France. This type of fishing has great potentialities for attracting tourists. The season is a natural one. We have the May fly and then we have the ordinary fishing for the rest of the season. That also should be looked after. Contests should be subsidised. The number of beds available should be extended and advertisements inserted in Continental and British newspapers. I myself am particularly interested in shooting. This is an infinitely more difficult matter than fishing. You must have your shoot organised. It is something you cannot do indiscriminately. You must shoot a certain number of birds and these are proprietary things. Quite rightly, the man who occupies the land is now beginning to take a primary interest in his birds. You could have a great number of guns in a snipe area, but there would be no shoot for people arriving there three or four days later.

I know an area in north County Louth where a man went out to shoot snipe a few years ago. He rang up his friend and told him: "I have beaten your record. I shot 50 snipe." The friend replied: "You have not. My record was 51." That same year the man endeavoured to beat that record and in order to give him an opportunity of so doing a group had to stay away. Shooting must be on the basis of a proprietary approach.

An Cathaoirleach

These matters hardly come within the scope of the Bill. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is scarcely responsible for these activities.

Mr. Donegan

I will try and keep in order then.

An Cathaoirleach

It is quite in order to refer to these matters but going into detail is not in order.

Mr. Donegan

While there is an opportunity to attract people to shoot, there is no opportunity to attract them to fish. There is a great opportunity in regard to attracting visitors for hunting if we could only hire out the horses to them. That is being done in Fermoy, as I am sure the Minister knows. If Bord Fáilte, with the extra money they have, could co-ordinate this system of providing horses for groups who come here through travel agents, much could be done to attract these people, who are good spenders, to our country.

I think that Bord Fáilte has not really touched upon that to any great extent. They have appointed one lady who is trying to organise it but her job would be too onerous if she did not get considerable help. The appointment of one agent in every two or three counties on a part-time basis would be an immense advantage. I am very pleased to see an extension of the funds at the disposal of Bord Fáilte and I hope that the effort will bear fruit.

Mr. Lenihan

The main purpose of this Bill is, of course, financial. Briefly, the annual grant towards the board is being replaced by a sum of up to £5,000,000 which will be spent over the next seven years. That will ensure greater financial flexibility in the administration of the board over a number of years. The second financial provision is the extension of the limit of the loan guarantee scheme from £3,000,000 to £5,000,000 and the third main financial provision is that the ceiling which heretofore existed in regard to the grants paid towards interest charges on loans taken out by hoteliers is removed. There is no ceiling for the future in regard to these grants.

These financial provisions should give more flexibility to the administration of the board in the coming years and should enable it to spend in a more flexible and freer fashion on the important aspects of administration which can be divided into two categories—promotional and publicity, particularly abroad, and, secondly, developmental activities at home. The Minister in introducing the Bill outlined the progress made. Indeed, any of us who move through the country and compares the standard of hotels now to that of even ten years' ago cannot but admit that enormous strides have been made, particularly in regard to hotel and restaurant improvement. That improvement—you must have the goods in order to get the customers— is reflected in the strides forward made in regard to the financial return from our tourist industry. Last year, visitors to this country spent £42.4 million. That figure is 50 per cent. more than it was in 1953 and 30 per cent. more than it was in 1957.

It might be pertinent to remark that that very welcome increase of practically 50 per cent. in our tourist business over the past eight years took place since An Tóstal was inaugurated. I believe that much of the criticism of An Tóstal is ill-directed and stems from wrong motives and often political motives. The fact is that An Tóstal itself had a priming-pump effect in generating local interest in tourism throughout the country. In general, the effect was that people started to get together within the framework of An Tóstal to organise festivals or whatever activities were suited to a particular area.

I know that in my own area of Athlone the Amateur Drama Festival was organised by An Tóstal and has since developed on its own. The Film Festival in Cork is another example. The Tóstal had the effect of getting the people, first of all, into a tourist mood and made them have regard to the importance of tourism and the importance of brightening up the country to further those interests. It encouraged and developed local activities which in many areas have proved very successful. They are now going ahead on their own and are undoubtedly tourist attractions.

I believe An Tóstal had that tremendous priming pump effect in moving our people psychologically towards becoming tourist-conscious in a positive way. It is noticeable that that improvement of 50 per cent. has taken place since the Tóstal idea was put into effect. However, there is no reason, and in fact the Minister made it plain in his opening speech, for complacency with regard to tourism. There is still an enormous market in Britain which we have only tapped. Some 30 million people in Britain take holidays every year and we only get an estimated 300,000, or one per cent. of those people coming here. There is a real challenge there, particularly in the promotional and publicity aspects, and if we could induce two per cent. or three per cent. to come here, we would be doubling or trebling our business from that source. There is great room for improvement and there is a challenge presented to Bord Fáilte which I am sure they will be able to meet through greater expenditure on publicity abroad.

It is also interesting to note that the whole world seems to be going on holidays as along with the increased tourism which we have experienced, there have been similar increases in practically every European country. It is paradoxical to note that in Switzerland no big increase has taken place. That is probably due to the fact that they have reached the optimum point in regard to tourism. We have not reached the optimum point and that presents a challenge to Bord Fáilte.

With regard to the promotional and publicity aspects abroad and development at home, the advantages we have should be stressed more. The two outstanding advantages which we possess and which we can give to people coming in are peace and quiet, which are becoming ever greater advantages, and secondly, our sporting attractions. Both of these are factors which do not depend on the narrow summer sunshine holiday period. Both are spread out over the greater part of the year. The peace and quiet which we can give people and the sporting attractions are features which can induce people to come here in April or May or in September or October. They are both factors which, if emphasised or "plugged," should serve to bring people here at a time of the year when it is required to extend the season.

Reference has already been made to the coarse fishing industry which in recent years has grown to tremendous proportions. There is also the question of providing proper attractions for the gun sportsman. It is not strictly relevant, but in that connection the Minister for Lands announced on his Estimate that £7,500 is being devoted by his Department towards the preservation and improvement of game resources. I am glad to note that that money is to be spent through regional and local game councils. Undoubtedly, in regard to shooting, many private interests are affected and it is important to get the support of those interests in order properly to preserve and develop our game resources and to make them attractive for sportsmen from abroad. I welcome the granting of the £7,500 which it is proposed to channel through existing regional and local game councils.

Bord Fáilte had some unfortunate experience with some of these councils over the past 12 months. I think the councils were right and that Bord Fáilte were wrong, but there is no point in going back over that controversy. The money is now being channelled through another source and a network of local game councils, based on local initiative, is the proper channel.

There is another aspect of Bord Fáilte activities which I would criticise to a certain degree, that is, the grading system for our hotels. I feel that there is not sufficient emphasis, first of all, on food, and secondly on what one might call the personality of a hotel. It has been the experience of many hoteliers throughout the country that the Bord Fáilte inspection is carried out on the basis of technical criteria: where the reception desk is placed, where the telephone booth is placed, how many tables there are, and how they are placed, how the linen cupboard is placed upstairs, is it awkward to get up and down the stairs, the position of the bar in relation to the diningroom, and so on. Many structural criteria are taken into account by Bord Fáilte in their inspections and in assessing the grade of a hotel. Practically no account is taken of the two most elementary requirements, first of all, food, and, secondly, cleanliness.

I have had the experience, as I suppose other Senators have had, of going into hotels and restaurants in France. Certainly they are not structurally perfect and in fact infringe the structural laws, but the food is good and the standard of cleanliness is good. These are the basic elements in any good inn or restaurant, and I feel Bord Fáilte do not give sufficient attention to them and the general personality or impact of a hotel. There are many grade C hotels which as regards personality, impact and general atmosphere, plus good food, are way ahead of many grade A hotels, and I can say that without fear of contradiction.

Professor Hayes

That is because, like many places in France, there is a man and his wife in charge.

Mr. Lenihan

There is a lot in that. I do feel that the grading system is too rigid and that a more flexible system would meet the case. The present system is based on structural defects and side by side with that, there should be another system which would take into account food, cleanliness and general personality. Another aspect to which I should like to refer, and with which some of my southern colleagues may not agree, is that I feel undue emphasis is placed on time-honoured attractions and I am thinking particularly of Killarney and the southwestern part of the country.

Killarney is a great "gimmick" as regards American tourists but I would say that none of the Killarney lakes bears comparison with Lough Key at Boyle and the upper reaches of the Shannon. That is the loveliest lake in the country but it is not mentioned sufficiently in the Bord Fáilte publicity. Yet it is in a centre which would do with some encouragement. There is no big industry near it but there are good hotels and the coarse fishing position is being built up. Bord Fáilte do not direct sufficient attention to the whole stretch of scenic attractions on the upper Shannon from, say, Athlone through Lanesboro' and Termonbarry, to Rooskey, Carrick-on-Shannon, on to Boyle and then on to Dromahair and the Yeats country. That is a stretch of country which is never mentioned enough in Bord Fáilte publicity and which is never encouraged and where local initiative is doing most of its own work.

It is an area where first-class hotels have been provided by local initiative, where different counties are getting ahead with game preservation and where the coarse fishing business has assumed tremendous proportions and is now an industry in itself in the area between Boyle, Carrick-on-Shannon, Drumshambo and Dromahair. There, positive development is taking place primarily by local initiative, with very little help by Bord Fáilte apart from the financial help towards the improvement of hotels. I feel that greater publicity should be channelled towards areas of that description that need assistance much more than the well-deserved publicity channelled over the years towards Killarney and the natural charms of the south-west part of our country.

I feel Bord Fáilte are doing an excellent job. It is essential to have an independent organisation of this nature to carry on with this job. In so far as the financial measure before us enables it to act more independently and more flexibly than heretofore, that is a factor which should induce us to welcome this Bill and wish Bord Fáilte good luck in its continuing development.

Miss Davidson

I, like most people, would like to see our tourist business increasing and flourishing and I would like to see, as a result of the efforts of the various local authorities, cleaner and tidier cities, towns, and villages. Many town committees have worked wonders in the appearance of their towns but there is still a great deal to be done. Even in Dublin there is need of more publicity to guide the citizens to take home their waste and burn it or to use the receptacles provided by the Corporation.

It is my belief that the very best and most valuable of our tourists are people of moderate means who come, in the main, from Britain and the Six Counties. These people do not want luxury hotels. I would borrow a phrase from Senator McGuire and stress that what is wanted here is first-class second-class hotels which are best suited to our best tourist customers— the people of moderate means from our neighbouring island.

Much has been said from time to time about the unpleasant smell which occasionally rises from the River Liffey. Much has been done to try to provide a remedy. I want to refer to a somewhat similar matter which causes much discomfort alike to citizens and tourists. I refer to the shocking odour that, on occasion, envelops the city and causes not only much embarrassment but real distress. I have not been able to find out just where the offensive smell comes from. I have contacted Dublin Corporation which suggested fertiliser factories, etc. but they can do nothing about the problem. Had I been able to find out the source of the trouble I would have made a private approach long ago.

I have, on occasion, stopped to admire our little gem in Saint Stephen's Green, to enjoy the perfume of the flowers, as well as the scene of the citizens enjoying the fresh air and the sunshine, only to be driven away by this foul smell. I have had complaints regarding the distress caused to office and other staffs by this infliction.

I wonder if the Minister for Industry and Commerce would suggest to industrialists, or perhaps ask Bord Fáilte to do it, that where offensive vapours have to be discharged the air they should be passed through some chemical process before being poured out to destroy the air of the city.

I am told that the problem can be solved at little expense. I would ask the Minister to examine this problem. There is no use in planting flowers in our parks and public places and then submerging their perfume under a cloud of foul-smelling vapour from factories. If the Minister has been unfortunate enough to be struck with this horrible infliction which must be endured by our citizens, he will realise that it is something that will do much harm to our tourist trade.

I think there is still a great deal to be done, in regard to souvenirs, in the production of the smaller pottery products that are generally sought after by those desiring a souvenir of the less expensive type. The numbers of these types of commodities have increased greatly. There is still much to be done to eliminate the crude, lumpy articles which give no clue to the fact that our potteries can and do produce lovely articles which help to spread the fame of our craftsmen. Apart from these few grumbles, I welcome the Bill.

Mr. Carter

Most people will agree with the aim of the Bill and with the aims of Bord Fáilte to develop tourism. Our income from tourism has grown progressively especially in the course of the past ten years. Some people find fault with the slow rate of growth but one would prefer a steady growth coupled with a desire on the part of our national sporting organisations to give Bord Fáilte such co-operation in this matter as possible.

It could be said, I think, roughly speaking, that the income from tourism ten years ago was around the £30,000,000 mark. It has gone up now from that figure and that is due in part to the efforts of Bord Fáilte. It is good business and it is business I think which we could develop further. We have good ideas. We are located near big centres such as London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, and so on.

I agree with those speakers here and elsewhere who have sought to inculcate the idea that we should promote the family type hotel rather than the more expensive luxurious hotel. The ordinary tourist here is a family man with limited means. We should do everything in our power to make things comfortable for him during his stay with us. As was also mentioned, a number of people come to this country to visit relatives. A number of our people who work abroad make a habit of coming back here to visit their friends. A number of people come here on business trips and people come for unspecified reasons.

The National Sporting Club which was formed recently is working along the right lines. There has been an effort, voluntarily, to consolidate activities. I think of the gun clubs and the fishing clubs who have joined and are trying to promote the idea that the better facilities we have for shooting, fishing and hunting, the better will be our chances of attracting tourists here especially in the off season when hotels, and the managements of boarding houses, could cater better for tourists.

We can offer a great deal in the way of beautiful scenery. We have some of the most beautiful scenery in Europe, and we have good beaches. If we could get an active community spirit, it would be of more help than, if you like, needless criticism. We should recognise that our purse is limited. The amount of money which can be given to Bord Fáilte in any year is limited to the amount which the Minister and the Government can provide. Therefore, we must recognise that if we do not develop to the full our interest in tourism, we cannot hope to make much progress, no matter how active or zealous Bord Fáilte may be.

I notice that there is a marked reluctance on the part of hotel owners and boarding house owners in certain resorts to adopt the new spirit or, if I may put it this way, the changing mood of tourism. I refer to the tourists who come here in caravans. In certain resorts, the inhabitants have shown a marked reluctance to cater for caravans. They are doing themselves, the resort and the country a serious injury by these tactics. I do not wish to go into the subject any further, but I could build up the argument that the caravan dweller is a very desirable tourist, because he always brings another type of tourist. There will always be people who will not under any conditions take a holiday in a caravan. Therefore, it would be well for people in the seaside resorts to recognise the fact that there will always be the type of tourist who wants an all-in holiday and who would much prefer to stay in a hotel or in a boarding house rather than in a caravan.

I am glad the Minister has brought this Bill to the House to provide this considerable sum of money, and to give Bord Fáilte the confidence they need. I should like to say, finally, that if those engaged in the catering trade would come together and show a better spirit, they would be doing a good day's work for tourism and, in the last analysis, for the country.

Mr. O'Quigley

The debate has been an extremely useful contribution on the subject of tourism. We have had some new ideas from Senator Stanford and, as usual, Senator Ó Maoláin has given us a very interesting dissertation on continental holidays. Since his bibulous tour of the unholy lands on the occasion of the debate on the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, we look to Senator Ó Maoláin to speak with some authority and knowledge of what goes on on the Continent in regard to entertainment.

It appears to me that there is not a great deal of use in members of the Seanad making their thoughtful contributions on a Bill of this kind because the complaints made year after year, both in the Dáil and in the Seanad, on Bills of this kind, never seem to make any impact upon Bord Fáilte, if one judges by the results. That is the way of many State bodies who find themselves answerable to no one except, perhaps, in a very indirect way to the Minister who is indirectly responsible for them. Consequently, it becomes a matter of reciting grievances in the hope that ultimately Bord Fáilte will sit up and listen.

I entirely agree with the view which has been expressed that too much money appears to be concentrated upon the luxury hotels, and too little attention paid to the smaller type of hotel which caters for the vast majority of the potential tourist traffic of this country. I had occasion on a previous Bill to refer to the complaints made by proprietors of the smaller type hotels who were being urged, if not coerced, by Bord Fáilte to make extensive alterations which were beyond their means. The point of view of those proprietors was that they have a clientele which is quite satisfied with the structure, the lay-out, the decoration and the accommodation provided. The proprietors of those rather small hotels pointed out that if they were to go in for large extensions such as were urged by Bord Fáilte, they would have to increase their charges and that would turn away the existing clientele which had been built up over the years by the owners of those places. Bord Fáilte will have to make some reappraisal of their grading of hotels of that kind and of the things they want done before giving grants or continuing the registration of that type of hotel.

Going around the country and seeing the new lounges and bars that have been fitted up, it strikes one that there is a lack of taste in the way those things are done. There is too much standardisation. It is too easy to get some plastic material, a bit of chrome and design bars and lounges in the same way. There is no individuality as far as one can see in many of those places which have been fitted out under the supervision of Bord Fáilte. I would be very pleased to see some individuality of approach to redecoration and design being encouraged and fostered through Bord Fáilte Éireann.

The Bill, and the other Acts which it amends, provide for the giving of grants to develop tourist resorts as holiday centres. Visiting places near Dublin and even Bray and similar places recently it appeared to me that either Bord Fáilte or the local authority should do something to ensure that places along the seashore are kept clean. It is idle to hope that an anti-litter campaign will produce clean beaches. As long as there are people, children in holiday mood, and a lack of litter receptacles, there will not be clean beaches and clean approaches to beaches. It is absolutely urgent and essential for Bord Fáilte or local authorities to appoint somebody who will systematically see to it that these places are clean and kept free from litter. It is quite shameful, in a place so well developed as Bray, to take one example, to find all classes of litter strewn in all classes of places. It seems to me to reflect no credit on the local authority or Bord Fáilte that that position is allowed to obtain. It is very bad publicity for the country and a counter to advertisements published to make this country appear attractive.

As has been frequently said, the best advertisement for any hotel or tourist resort is the satisfied customer. I do not fear that Bord Fáilte lacks adequate finance for advertising. Every satisfied guest in a hotel or guest house is a potential advertiser. People talk about their holidays and particularly like to say they had a good holiday if they are able to say so truthfully. That is the best advertisement. In far too many places the standard of service, of food, on which Senator Lenihan has placed some stress, and of cleanliness, is far below the ordinary minimal requirements.

In particular, I want to draw attention to the type of thing to which Senator Miss Davidson has been referring in relation to Dublin generally. Senator Miss Davidson should communicate with the Attorney General's office and call attention to this public nuisance and the Attorney General will probably take some steps in the common good, to abate what is a common nuisance. It would be within his province to do so. Incidentally, Senator Miss Davidson should be commended for the steps she has taken to try to eliminate this nuisance.

On that subject, it seems to me to be an essential requirement that the toilet accommodation in hotels should be beyond reproach. In the vast majority of hotels, apparently, the notion is that once a toilet is installed it requires no attention thereafter. It is greatly to be regretted that this part of the functioning of hotels is so neglected. It must leave an extremely bad impression upon visitors from other countries and on Irish people visiting these hotels on their way from one part of the country to another. Bord Fáilte should do something about this matter. It is the business of Bord Fáilte to see that hotels are kept in proper condition if they are to be registered. It does not make any great difference whether or not there is a carpet on the stairs or whether all the rooms have running hot and cold water. It is much more important, that the place should be kept clean. If standards were insisted upon by Bord Fáilte there would be much less cause for complaint in matters of that kind.

In my experience a common cause of complaint is lack of elementary cleanliness in some hotels. If Bord Fáilte at the present time has not got sufficient powers to insist upon standards it should be given them by statute or, alternatively, the local authority functioning as the sanitary authority ought to take an interest. It is regrettable, unpleasant and distasteful to have to speak on matters of that kind in public in this House but it is necessary, so that some authority will take steps to remedy these matters.

The road signs provided by Bord Fáilte and local authorities have often amused me and must be a source of amusement to visitors to our shores. Not infrequently one finds that according to one sign a place is seven and a half miles distant, whereas, according to another sign, that may be only a few yards distant, the place would appear to be eight or eight and a half miles away. That sort of sign-posting looks absurd and it is certainly a waste of public money. The work of sign-posting the country is proceeding but as yet there is nothing like sufficient sign-posting to places that are off the beaten track and which are of interest to tourists and to Irish people who may have heard of various places of interest but do not know the way to them.

In regard to advertising by Bord Fáilte, the magazine which they issue every two months reflects great credit on them. It is always a source of pleasure to me to receive it in the post and to scan its pages. It is extremely well done. I sometimes wonder whether the advertising is not done in too leisurely a fashion. I do not know what circulation the magazine has but it certainly gives a very favourable impression of the kind of country we believe Ireland to be and the kind of welcome and the kind of enjoyment and entertainment that are to be found here by people in search of a holiday that is different from that obtainable elsewhere. That kind of appeal is limited. Not everybody wants that particular kind of holiday. I wonder whether or not all Bord Fáilte's advertising is along that line. There are young people with money to spend who might spend it in this country but who would like to know of amusements apart from shooting and fishing and the quiet beauty of the lakes of Killarney and Lough Key. I do not think there is any indication in the magazine Ireland of the Welcomes that attractions to suit all tastes are available in this country but it may very well be that Bord Fáilte advertises these attractions in other magazines which I have not seen. I hope that is so.

I am glad to see further assistance being given to the tourist industry. Tourism holds great prospects for the future. I am sure it will be appreciated by the Minister and by Bord Fáilte that anything I have said which may be critical has not been carping criticism but the kind of criticism which I believe ought to be made in the interest of a very great industry with a very great future.

Mrs. Dowdall

I, also, am glad that the Minister has come here to secure that Bord Fáilte will be given added financial help to carry on its work. Some Senators have suggested that we are not giving Bord Fáilte enough. That, of course, could be said no matter how many millions per annum the Minister would make available because, as we all know, the development of tourism is a vast project, the demands of which could be endless and on which we could spend far more money than we have.

It is good to know that the average of visitors and money taken is increasing and if it is not increasing as fast as some people might wish, perhaps it is just as well that we should develop cautiously and carefully and retain the goodwill of the visitors who come to us and who will return in the future.

Much praise is due to Bord Fáilte and I add mine, but in this general backpatting of Bord Fáilte, as if they were the only group doing propaganda about tourism, I should like to draw the attention of the Seanad to the association that started this very firm idea very many years ago. I speak of the Irish Tourist Association and I mention them now because it is well known to all of us that they, in their wisdom, began their work when it was not even thought of by many people as being very profitable or economically a good thing for Ireland to develop tourism. Their slogan at the beginning was: "See Ireland first." That would cover the argument put up by some of the Senators that many people go on holidays abroad to many countries. They can tell you about the Casbah in Algiers or what is happening on the Costa Brava but they have no idea of the beauties of Donegal or the West of Ireland or Cork. That is rather lopsided. I should say there are hundreds of thousands of our own people not benefiting by the beauty of our own country and not spending their holidays in it. The Tourist Association by its voluntary work involving all kinds of people all over the country and by their representation on local authorities, in this work of developing tourism, is engaged in one of the most valuable facets of the whole business.

The voluntary nature of their work and the propaganda they can do on farms and in shops and in the smaller spheres is the essentially important thing that we want for this kind of development. Granted it is not so difficult to make propaganda about tourism as most people accept it but there is still work to do and I suggest that the Irish Tourist Association is doing more than its share in that regard.

There is a growing discontent among hoteliers. I hear them complaining about the difficulty of securing staffs. That is understandable. The season is so short and when the hotels and guest houses secure good staffs, they cannot keep them employed in the off season. I think it has been mentioned here before—and it is something that I always think is very important—that if some method could be found of giving occupation to hotel staffs in the winter, either in their own districts or elsewhere, so that they could be kept as members of the staff in the hotel concerned when the season reopened, it would be of great value. There could be a development whereby crafts could be taught and the souvenir industry benefited if these people who are let off by the hotels—and many of whom emigrate and never come back—were trained so that they could usefully employ their time in the winter to benefit themselves. That would secure continuing occupation and also improve and assist the tourist industry.

I agree with those who say that we must not—and Bord Fáilte must not —think only in terms of luxurious hotels, even if the word "luxurious" is not used in describing them. Our country, being a small one, and having as the main attraction for tourists its family atmosphere, the family hotel development as in France and Switzerland appears to be the most suitable. With proper training of young people and with the aid of Bord Fáilte and the I.T.A., I think these young people might set up business even in a small way around the country. There are many parts where there is no accommodation at all. That calls for family hotel development and I hope many young people will think of it and that some of the money now being provided for Bord Fáilte might find its way into such development.

Senator Lenihan mentioned certain parts of the midlands that are not mentioned in Bord Fáilte propaganda. That can be said about many small places and smallish resorts on the Cork coast make the same complaint. Certain big important centres seem to get all the advertising but with this new encouragement to local authorities and with the aid of Bord Fáilte to make improvements and increase the facilities in these areas the local people themselves can, when they find their work meeting with some success in some respects, as I have known it to happen in parts of the south, generate their own publicity and create their own business with people in Britain and America, bypassing the great central authority. American visitors say they would like a better, a greater variety of goods on sale at the Shannon Airport shop. There is a large stock there but, after touring the country and being to many towns, they think that the best of the goods available are not shown at Shannon Airport. That is something that might be examined.

We all agree about the beauty of our country, its peace and quiet, but it is becoming ironic to find that the very beauty of which we are proud cannot be seen because of the height of the hedges. Driving around the south of Ireland in the past few weeks, I could not find any improvement in that respect. I know that the Board made an effort to get hedges lowered and I hope they will continue that effort because it is literally true that in parts of the country through which I travelled in the past few weeks the hedges were up to 10 feet high or higher.

In any development of the hotel industry, I agree with Senator O'Quigley, who spoke of the standardisation and the chromium plating, that it would be desirable and advisable that new hotels, guest houses or restaurants should try to retain something distinctively Irish. Things that are distinctively Irish, at their best, are the best you can find anywhere. They are artistically correct, in good taste and suitable and I think we could do ourselves a lot of good by developing in that way.

I agree also with Senators who spoke about the lack of emphasis on food. In our hotels, restaurants and guest houses there is a lack of imagination. There is never any doubt about the quantity. One always gets far too much, I think, but there is a lack of imagination in the arranging of meals and especially of evening meals. The lack of choice is deplorable. To remedy this does not call for great staffs of cooks or chefs but just a little imagination and variety in the food supply.

The idea of increasing the money available to the Board is laudable. I hope that in the allocation of it, they will remember two things in which I am interested, the great cry about tourism that we have all been making; the desirability of extending the tourist season. In Cork we have been trying to do that since the founding of An Tóstal and I think at present we have the honour to have the only Tóstal Council in the country. We started two events which have extended the tourist season. We have the Choral Festival in the month of May and the Film Festival at the end of September. Both these events still need subventions from the Board. I hope with their increased prosperity the Board will see their way to continue that support, even though, according to their own rigid assessment, we may not be able to prove, as they would wish it to be proved, that we have brought foreigners to the country. We can prove it, but to prove it to the extent they desire is another matter. I mention it here because I think it is a good time to do so. These events which have cost, and are costing, a certain amount of money are the result of a great amount of voluntary effort and achieve the important objective of extending the tourist season. I hope, therefore, the Board will continue to give them the financial support they need. I have pleasure in supporting the Bill and I wish the Board every success.

Mr. Tunney

I should like to welcome the Bill. Tourism is one field in which there is great room for improvement. Not nearly enough is being done to keep our own people at home during their holidays. Last week, a very large amount of money was paid out to people going on holidays. It is too bad we cannot encourage more of those people to spend their holidays in their own country. Some time ago, I met a man who was going on holidays with his wife and family to the Isle of Man. The excuse he gave me was that there was no place here where they could have a seaside holiday as well as amusements for the children and that they wanted the children to enjoy the holiday as much as themselves. We talk about bringing in tourists, but would it not be as good if we could persuade our own people to spend their money here?

Senator Lenihan complained that Leitrim had been neglected. The part of the country in which I was born and reared—the stretch of coast from Achill, Mulranny, Westport, Louisburgh to Leenane in Galway—is second to none, but I have no hesitation in saying it is left in the background and that it should get more publicity. As far as sport is concerned, good work has been done in promoting the Westport Sea Angling Festival. Although I am against the establishment of large and elaborate hotels, catering for certain people at certain times of the year, I believe there is room for better hotel accommodation in that area. The type of hotel I should like to see erected is the type that would cater for persons such as the man I have just spoken about—a hotel where he and his wife and family can find reasonable accommodation at a reasonable price.

There is one other point I should like to raise, although I do not know if I am strictly in order. I could never understand the mentality of certain public representatives in my county who kicked up such a row about foreigners buying land. I want to make my position clear. There is no Senator more opposed to the purchase of good, arable land by foreigners than I am. However, the area I am speaking of, and which I know so well, contains land on which a family cannot eke out a living at present. If foreigners buy that land, erect chalets on it and bring tourists into the country, instead of anybody saying anything against them, they should be encouraged to come here. I think it is madness that responsible public people should kick up a row and oppose that development, which brings money and tourists to this country at no cost to the nation. I want to make it clear again that I am against the purchase of good, arable land.

Mr. O'Quigley

That is what the complaint was about.

Mr. Tunney

I defy contradiction when I say that the greatest portion of the land about to be purchased or purchased is such that, if some of the Senators were sent down to live on it, in a very short time, they would either be dead or in Castlebar Workhouse.

Mr. Burke

They bought it in Tipperary and they did not buy it to build hotels on it.

Mr. Tunney

The area I refer to in the West is one of great natural beauty, and I would appeal to Bord Fáilte to give more consideration to it. It has everything to offer tourists.

Bord Fáilte have a great responsibility in respect of the employees of hotels which receive grants. I shall not labour the point. I could, if I wanted to, convince the Minister that the girl employees of some of the hotels have to work under the most slavish conditions in respect of hours, pay and everything else. The result is that they stay only a while and then have to emigrate. When we expect a good type of person to visit our hotels, we should at least ensure that the working conditions are worthy of Irish employees.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

I do not intend to say very much on this Bill, in view of the fact that so many aspects of tourism have been touched on by Senators. We all agree that the tourist industry is now a major industry and that every encouragement should be given to it so that it may expand even more. Of course, this cannot be done without the expenditure of more money. A certain amount of criticism has been levelled against Bord Fáilte during the course of this debate. I do not say that Senators should not be at liberty to criticise the Board, and indeed I would criticise it myself, if I thought such criticism justified. There has been criticism, for instance, on the ground that their publicity is inadequate. Publicity can be a very expensive item. I daresay that their activity in regard to publicity will always be conditioned by the amount of money they have at their disposal.

They have also been criticised for not paying more attention to certain parts of the country. Of course, we can all make a case for our own particular area. Senator Lenihan censured Bord Fáilte for paying too much attention to Killarney and he tried to convince us that there is scenery up the country even finer than the scenery in Killarney. I wonder would anybody accept that point of view? Somebody mentioned Wexford. Wexford has some very fine scenery. It has a grand coastline, wonderful fishing and wonderful bathing facilities. But everybody knows Killarney has been the Mecca of tourists for countless years. The splendour of the scenery there and its unique attractiveness are things which have put this country on the map of the world. I think Bord Fáilte are quite justified in giving generous grants towards the development of that area. This advocacy for the spending of more money in certain other areas is a bad approach in relation to tourism. Expenditure is a matter for Bord Fáilte and it should be left to their discretion. They are the best judges. They can take a more detached view.

I think Bord Fáilte are doing an excellent job. They have approached the question of tourism with imagination and energy. They deserve the plaudits of this House. We have been peculiarly fortunate in the specialist Boards we have set up, and very fortunate in Bord Fáilte. It has been said we are not spending enough money on tourism and that we should spend more. It is very easy to say that, and we would all advocate the spending of more money, but we must always have regard to the resources available to us. Having regard to the resources available to us, we are not, I think, spending a bad share at all. We are spending as much as can be expected, and there is provision in this Bill for a substantial increase in the amount of money to be spent on tourism.

Reference has been made to the standard of catering in our hotels. Perhaps here and there the standard may not be up to the mark but there has been, on the whole, a wonderful improvement in both the standard of catering and the standard of cleanliness in the last eight or ten years. It has been said that anyone who goes away satisfied is an advertisement for the tourist industry here. There is no doubt about that. If anyone is dissatisfied he has his remedy. He can lodge a complaint with Bord Fáilte. They control the grading of hotels.

Mr. O'Quigley

That is a lot of good if his holiday has been spoiled.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

If hotel proprietors know that there is a remedy they will not be careless about either accommodation or catering. I think Bord Fáilte are to be congratulated on the work they have done and on the success they are making of the tourist industry here.

Mr. O'Grady

I know the Minister is anxious to get in. I shall not be long.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Minister is always anxious to get in so that he will get out.

Mr. O'Grady

I have a crow to pluck with Senator Lenihan. I advise him, the next time he goes boating on the Shannon, to go in the opposite direction and take a sail down as far as Killaloe. He will see scenery that will bear comparison with some of the areas he mentioned here. I do not wish to belittle these areas. There is beautiful scenery all over the country. I suppose it is only natural that most of us should find the most familiar the most beautiful. I should direct the Senator's attention to the views along the lower reaches of Lough Derg. Both sides of the Shannon are really magnificent. The Tipperary side, perhaps, stands out. Many people believe the view from the Corkscrew Hill at Lisdoonvarna one of the finest in the country, not to mention Inchiquin, famous for its trout fishing. The quality of the fish is reputed to be the best in Ireland.

I think the best way of extending the tourist industry would be by the provision of more fishing and shooting facilities, with consequential employment for those engaged in the hotel industry over a longer period than is possible in present circumstances. The great difficulty for hotels in most of our resorts is the limited season. They have difficulty in securing staff in the early part of the season. They employ them for about three months and when the tourist season is over they cannot manage to keep them on. The same difficulty arises year after year.

I agree with other speakers that the Tourist Board is doing a very good job. Long before that Board was set up, as Senator Mrs. Dowdall has reminded us, the Irish Tourist Development Association with very limited resources had to fight an uphill battle and had difficulty in getting a small contribution from various public bodies. I remember some 30 years ago these matters being the subject of considerable controversy in local authorities but since then it must be admitted that the standard of our hotels has much improved, which is all to the good. It is wrong for people to expect the Tourist Board or any outside authority to do everything for them. We must get away from that idea. There are certain resorts that had the initiative to go in for a full programme of development and it is a credit to them. I shall mention just one, not in my own former constituency but in the adjoining one, Salthill in Galway. They have done exceptionally fine work there. They took full advantage of whatever grants were made available. Similar grants should be made available in other areas. I am glad to notice that in Lahinch in recent times they have gone all out on a similar project. It is by local initiative that we shall make progress, if progress is to be made at all.

I should like to ask the Minister and through him, Bord Fáilte to look into the matter to which Senator Tunney referred, namely, the treatment meted out to young girls who go into hotels for improvement courses. The Minister and the Board should ensure that they get proper food and accommodation as well as whatever small salaries they are given in these hotels. These hotels are profiting well from the tourist development and these young girls should not be ill-treated as they have been in our largest hotels.

Mr. O'Reilly

I do not wish to enter into an argument with Senator Lenihan and Senator Ó Ciosáin in regard to the merits of Killarney. At this stage Killarney should not need a boost from Bord Fáilte by the spending of money. The boost in regard to Killarney was started by a song writer who wrote the famous song which is still current. That is sufficient without any further help from Bord Fáilte.

A number of speakers mentioned particular areas and drew attention to beauty spots in those areas. That is a nice thing to do but I wonder how far it is permissible on this Bill? While I agree that good work has been done by Bord Fáilte, they have a duty to organise tourism to a greater degree all over the country, not necessarily in Killarney, Lisdoonvarna or other places to which attention has been drawn as beauty spots. There is a lot of natural beauty in the country even in County Wexford of which I have not seen very much. However, you do not solve problems merely by spending money. Money must be spent intelligently if it is to achieve satisfactory results.

Bord Fáilte should advise the people in small towns and villages in regard to providing accommodation and other necessary facilities, and encourage the development of coarse fishing or other tourist attractions that may exist in an area. It is also necessary to ensure that tourist income is spread evenly over the country and not allowed to accumulate in well-known centres. That would be a disastrous policy if it were carried too far. Bord Fáilte must give a lead to the people, survey the facilities available, and so on. That is most essential unless we want—as I think none of us wants—State control of tourism.

More could be done for the unadvertised places whether they be in Donegal, Cavan, Leitrim or Mayo. I do not believe that sufficient attention has been given by Bord Fáilte to these smaller places. Perhaps because of the lack of organisation there, the people may not make enough fuss or shout sufficiently loudly into the ears of Bord Fáilte. It should not be necessary for small communities to have to do that but I suppose agitation is important and that most of the problems of the world have been solved by agitation of the proper kind. There are many areas where there is not that agitation. It is the duty of Bord Fáilte to look for the work that has to be done in these areas where people are unorganised and where there is no serious effort to exploit the tourist potential.

I do not want to follow up Senators in comparing the beauty of Killarney with the beauty of Lough Gill though I could do it. In areas like Cavan, Leitrim and Donegal, there is more beautiful scenery but we were not lucky enough to get a song writer some 50 years ago to write a song about it. That was the tragedy of those places. I should be quite happy so long as the facilities that are made available will be properly exploited all over the country, particularly in the small towns and villages in the congested districts where the money income from tourism is more important. It is only by leadership, direction and advice that the people will measure up to the requirements. It is only by giving the proper direction and advice to the hotel people and the people in the small towns who are prepared to accommodate fishermen that a proper spreading out of the tourist income can be achieved.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

It was my hope, when I came in this afternoon, to reply to most of the points made in the course of the debate but so many Senators have spoken that I hope I will be forgiven if I cannot deal with each point raised. The debate was conducted at a very good level. There was a certain amount of criticism, very constructive criticism, of the way in which we are handling our tourist business. That is all to the good though Senator O'Quigley seemed to suggest that criticism made here appeared to fall on deaf ears. I think the contrary is the case. While Board Fáilte have eyes to see where the fault lies, they must listen to statements made in the course of debates in the Oireachtas.

In regard to such statements, one could not help but pay a tribute to the most interesting contribution made to this debate by Senator Stanford. While listening to him on the last evening, I was hoping that he would keep going for some time longer than he did but as an indication that criticism or constructive suggestions can bear fruit, my action, following Senator's Stanford's speech, is a good illustration.

He spoke about the necessity of developing the historical side of our tourist industry and of making more of our literary history. He said that we should exploit to the full the perhaps limited literary history we have, in relation to tourism. I found myself during the course of the weekend in the reaches of the middle Shannon, shall I say. As a result of his suggestion about Goldsmith, I went to see some of the famous Goldsmith spots.

At the outset, I must say I was very impressed by the manner in which the Goldsmith Society and Bord Fáilte have combined to provide very excellent and informative plaques in each of these locations. However, I must say that we, as a nation, do not do justice to these places. The locations are readily identifiable but when one comes to "the busy mill" and "the never failing brook", one can only see an overgrowth of briars, brambles and all kinds of weeds. One cannot even discern a stone upon a stone. One can only hear the "never failing brook" but never see it. It is a great pity that we have not done more to identify these locations and also to preserve what remains of these historic spots.

Scott, in his life of Goldsmith, tried to suggest that Ireland claimed wrongfully the location of many of the features of Goldsmith's Deserted Village. I suppose an arguable case can be made for that but, nevertheless, there is indisputable evidence of Goldsmith's birthplace at Pallas which I visited on this occasion, largely by reason of the assistance provided in these plaques of the Goldsmith Society and Bord Fáilte. Having got there, I was very disappointed, indeed. The outside lane was overgrown. Cattle were gathered round what remained of the house in which Goldsmith was born. One would wonder, perhaps, that I should come here to make complaints when to an extent the remedy is in my own hands, but, having recently seen these things, I felt rather disappointed that we had not made more of them.

Similarly with the parsonage at Lissoy. That is still in a very fine state of preservation. Were it not for the interest of the farmer who owns the property, it might deteriorate still further. I am sure that his co-operation and the co-operation of the other landowners on which these famous spots are could be readily got to ensure that these places are not only marked and identified but properly preserved in such a way that reasonable access can be made to them by tourists and our own people and also so that what remains of them will be available for posterity.

One of the criticisms made during the course of the debate was rather surprising to me, especially from the source whence it came. Senator Quinlan suggested that we do not spend enough money on tourism. I agree entirely that we do not spend enough money on tourism but, unfortunately, we have to cut our cloth in every Department according to our measure. Nevertheless, this Bill is an advance in that we are providing a sum of £5,000,000 to be expended over a period which it is supposed will be seven years. However, if Bord Fáilte put up a convincing case for the acceleration of that expenditure, it will, of course, be listened to and what money is justified will be made available.

At the same time, I think we compare very favourably with tourist promotional activity as carried on in other countries. Here we spend more than is spent in the United Kingdom in relation to the income from tourism. They spend over £1,000,000 under the British Travel and Holiday Association per annum and earn about £250,000,000. We spend, as of now, about £700,000 and earn about £43,000,000 per annum. I think we can make the same claim in respect of many continental countries, so that, in relation to income, our expenditure on tourist promotion is pretty high. In that respect, I think it was Senator Donegan who made the point that much of our income from tourism tends to be exaggerated in so far as a lot of money comes in from our emigrants who, having gone abroad, come back for holidays.

Mr. Donegan

That was not what I said. I said the official figures were to a certain extent confounded by this question of emigrants coming and going. I did not suggest that the net result was that our income from tourism was smaller than that published. From year to year, the figures as published tend to be inaccurate because of this flow of emigrants in and out and people coming across the Border as well who are included. There is no desire to reduce the figure which we think comes from tourism. The Minister understands what I mean.

Mr. J. Lynch

I understand entirely —it is a valid enough point; it is a point which was made in the course of the debate in the Dáil—but Bord Fáilte have been able to estimate fairly closely the amount of money that tourists bring and the number of them who are really tourists, as opposed to former emigrants returning for a short holiday, or people who come and go in the ordinary course of business. Roughly speaking, the divide is, of the £44,500,000 earned last year, £23,000,000 was contributed by tourists who were neither businessmen nor returning emigrants or anybody else in that class. Of the 1,400,000 visits, almost 700,000 were made by tourists coming to visit the country, in the strict sense of the meaning of the word "tourist", so that we are doing reasonably well in attracting people who have no other interest in coming to this country than to spend a holiday in a strange place.

It is true that as we attract more and more of these people, the difficulty in regard to hotel accommodation will become more acute. However, one of the main efforts of Bord Fáilte is directed towards the provision of greater accommodation, and in fact that is one of the purposes of this Bill also. I should like to deal with some of the comments made in that respect. In the first place, there is no truth in the suggestion that Bord Fáilte are concentrating more on the luxury type of tourist accommodation than on the ordinary type. That comment was made more forcibly in the Dáil than here, but nevertheless many people seem to have the idea that the ordinary middle or lower than middle class accommodation is being ignored. I should like to deal with the point that we are not keeping pace with the increased number of tourists who come here. In fact we have been doing quite well in the last few years as a result of the assistance given under Bills such as this to hoteliers and guest house owners to improve and extend accommodation.

In the year ended March, 1961, as compared with the previous year, there has been an increase in hotel bedroom accommodation of 1,383. Of that number, 615 rooms have hot and cold water facilities and 283 have bed-bath units. In the overall figure, 93 per cent. of our hotel bedrooms are equipped with hot and cold water facilities and almost ten per cent. with bed-bath units. In the guest house category, there was an increase of 352 units, bringing the number to 4,009, or roughly a nine per cent. increase. Even in the guest houses, 69 per cent. of the bedrooms are equipped with hot and cold water facilities. In the other types of holiday accommodation, holiday camps, youth hostels, etc., there has been a very spectacular increase in the 12 months of 859, or from 4,184 to 5,043. So that all in all we have been doing fairly well. Bord Fáilte in their "better hotels plan" envisaged an increase of 2,500 rooms by April, 1963. At the end of 1961, 1,160 of these rooms had been provided, that is, of the 2,500 planned. A further 600 are planned in the current year. Again, by way of reply to the criticism that we are concentrating on luxury accommodation, half of that 2,500 will be in the nature of the lower grade hotel class. Later in 1963, there will be a further addition of 500 bedrooms under the international hotel scheme, that is, the large hotel for Dublin and the two large hotels for Cork and Limerick. By and large, we are making good strides in the provision of hotel bedrooms.

That brings me to Senator Ó Maoláin's criticism. I am afraid he has been listening to complaints and giving too much ear to them when he says that it is impossible to get single bedroom accommodation. The figures for 1960 in respect of hotel accommodation for all grades—I am ignoring guest houses and others—were 9,339 double bedrooms and 5,624 single rooms, so we have roughly three single bedrooms to every five double rooms in the hotels. It is true that there have been some complaints but what is more true, perhaps, is that from now on the cost of providing single bedrooms will be largely uneconomic compared with the provision of double rooms. Of course, the same four walls will have to be erected but the floor space will have to be bigger in the case of the double rooms. Obviously it will be more economic for any hotelier to provide for double bedrooms in the future even if on occasion he will let them as single rooms. Nevertheless the fact remains that we have at the moment five double bedrooms for every three single rooms, which is a fairly good proportion.

Mr. Burke

Would not a lot of these single rooms be occupied by the commercial community, travellers and such people? I should not like the Minister to overlook that. They are down as rooms available.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is fairly likely but usually they occupy them from Monday to Thursday——

Mr. Burke

That is true.

Mr. J. Lynch

——so that they are available at weekends if they are occupied in the middle of the week. However, it is a universal problem and it is not confined to Ireland, but, as compared with other countries, we have a good proportion of single bedroom accommodation compared with double bedroom accommodation.

Some criticism was voiced in regard to the standards we have to offer in our hotels. Some commendation was made of the improving standards not only in regard to cleanliness and hygiene but in regard to service and food. We have progressed very well in recent years and during the course of the past year or two, when I have been opening hotels, I have taken advantage of the occasions to relay criticisms which were offered to me and to Bord Fáilte about the standard of the services provided and about complaints in regard to other matters, such as alleged overcharging, or charging extras which were not listed on the hotels' tariffs. These practices are still with us but I think they are on the decrease. I have encouraged Bord Fáilte on all occasions to take the strongest possible action that they can when such complaints are brought to their notice.

By and large, I think it is due to the hotels to pay a tribute to them for the significant improvement in standards, in décor, in cleanliness, in the quality and variety of food. Similarly, I think I ought to pay a tribute to the private people who have had their homes and shops repainted, particularly on the outside, in order to make their localities more attractive. This is perhaps due to some extent to the Tidy Towns and Roadside Gardens competitions promoted by Bord Fáilte.

Having travelled throughout the country in many directions recently I could not but feel proud of the manner in which the Irish people are responding to the inducement to make their towns, villages and roadside houses more attractive. Many of them are blossoming into a variety of bright colours in outside decoration which is most attractive. The more we have of that the more attractive will be our country towns and villages.

I am not suggesting that any exhortations I have made over the past two years have been responsible in any way for that satisfactory state of affairs. I would rather give the credit in the first place to the sense of pride of the people themselves and, in the second place, to the promotional encouragement given by Bord Fáilte. In the long run, we must agree that our countryside is presenting a much more attractive and brighter appearance not only to our visitors but to ourselves.

There are still a few bad spots, unfortunately, where old, rusted, corrugated iron sheds are lying around, where partly dilapidated houses with thatched roofs falling in are left in a dangerous and, I might even suggest, an unhygienic condition. Certainly, apart from their danger and lack of hygiene, they present a shocking eyesore as one passes through the country. I hope the new Bill which the Minister for Local Government will introduce will provide adequate powers to local authorities to ensure that people will not be permitted to spoil the countryside, to the beauty of which so many have been contributing of late.

With regard to hotel staffs, Bord Fáilte have, over the years, been taking very active steps to help to provide a sufficient number of adequately-trained hotel staff personnel. They have cooperated with vocational education committees throughout the country. They have courses such as the six months' residential course in Portnablagh, Rosslare and Cobh under which no fewer than 132 girls were enabled to begin work as junior cooks, waitresses and housemaids. This scheme began in 1954. Since then, 800 girls have been trained for hotel work generally. Fortunately, 75 per cent. of these are still engaged at that work. That does not mean that 25 per cent. have gone abroad. Some of them have, no doubt, but others have got married and others have resigned from that type of employment for a variety of reasons.

There are at the moment 61 boys training to be commis chefs and commis waiters at residential courses at Athenry and Rockwell College. At Coláiste Mhuire le Tíos in Dublin there are 21 students training to be cooks and commis chefs as well. These are very desirable activities and ones which should be given every encouragement not only by this House, through the subvention to Bord Fáilte, but by local authorities and vocational education representatives on local authorities who are members of vocational education committees.

I have heard of the complaint made by Senator Tunney that some of the staffs are not well treated in hotels. I have not yet got a direct complaint. I am not suggesting that there are not any grounds for the complaint; obviously, there must be. If I do get any complaints I certainly would be most anxious to ensure that the causes of complaints are eliminated. While I should not like to ascribe any degree of responsibility in this, nor would I ask Bord Fáilte to suggest that—it is not their responsibility, either—I think it is one that should be looked after by the respective trade unions.

The trade unions on the catering side are active and are no doubt solicitous for the welfare of their members. However, between the unions, Bord Fáilte and the Minister, there ought to be a remedy for any cases of improper treatment—I should not like to suggest it is ill-treatment—from the point of view of food, accommodation or long hours. They should be overcome.

Senator Stanford made the point during the course of his interesting contribution that we should pay particular attention to the quality of the guides we provide whether in organised or in unorganised tours. Guides cannot be provided very readily for unorganised tours. I have heard high tributes paid to the standard, the quality, of the guides C.I.E. provide in their bus tours. I do not know if there are guides on organised tours except, perhaps, where people go to places of interest such as the Rock of Cashel, the Japanese Gardens in Kildare, and other parts of the country, and there are guides on the spot. I have been in some of these places. I have found that the knowledge of these guides is quite wide and can be of tremendous interest to tourists. In fact, it is almost essential that tourists be given the background knowledge in regard to what they will see.

When I was Minister for Education I encouraged national teachers to spend some time of the week or of the day in teaching the children all the lore and history of the area in which they reside and in teaching them to be able to give directions and distances. If a motorist, in particular, stops a young person on the road to ask the direction to any place it is very important that the young person should be able to give reasonably accurate directions and should be fairly near or not too far off with regard to distance. There is nothing more annoying for a tourist than to be told that if he takes a turn to the right about a mile ahead it will bring him nearer his destination and, after driving five miles, still he may find that he has not yet reached the turn to the right. It has happened to us all.

It is important that teachers in national schools, especially in rural areas, should acquaint the children of all these matters and I again repeat that exhortation here. Nothing can impress tourists more than to meet bright and intelligent young people who are able to give accurate descriptions, accurate estimates of distances and accurate directions to places of interest.

I have dealt with some if not all of the main points raised on this Second Reading debate. I can assure the House that the contributions to this debate, and the constructive criticism which has permeated it, will carefully be taken note of by me and by Bord Fáilte. Those of them which are found practicable will be implemented to the greatest possible extent. I should say, of course, that, as in all cases, Bord Fáilte are limited by the amount of money the Oireachtas can provide. I think I can endorse what has been said by the majority of the members of the Seanad, that the money that is being provided is well spent in general.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment and received for Final Consideration.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Burke

The Leas-Chathaoirleach will, perhaps, allow me in passing to thank the Minister for the constructive manner in which he has dealt with the various points raised. We must not overlook the fact that about 300,000 people visited us last year from Great Britain. There must be almost 1,000,000 people of Irish blood living in Britain today. Of the percentage of people who visited us last year, probably two-thirds were born here. I do not think we have touched the fringe of the tourist potential in Britain. We must do more for the small hotels and guest houses. I am on holiday and I noticed English people camping. There is a population of about 51,000,000 or 52,000,000 right on our doorstep on an overcrowded island. Of that population we should reach at least 1,000,000. I suppose half the people in Britain go on holiday every year, and out of that potential we attracted only 300,000, and many came here because they are our kinsfolk.

On Second Reading I forgot to mention what I consider to be a very important matter. The toilets in our hotels and on our public conveyances —our railways—are not looked after in the way in which they should be. Travelling on the Continent I noticed that there are attendants on all long distance trains. I am not in any sense criticising C.I.E. They are doing a great job, but if a train takes three hours, or three and a half hours, to go from Dublin to Cork or Galway, or four hours to go from Dublin to Sligo, there may be children on it who want to use the conveniences and they are not always as clean and tidy as they should be. It is a very important matter and one of which the Minister should take notice.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I doubt if it is relevant.

Mr. Burke

Nothing offends tourists more. I think money should be spent on providing that type of personnel even at the railway stations.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

While I might agree, I do not think it is relevant.

Question put and agreed to.