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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Jan 1965

Vol. 58 No. 4

Land Bill, 1963: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is designed to furnish the Land Commission with new and improved powers to be used in an accelerated drive to build up the basic farm structure of this country wherever necessary to conform to modern requirements.

Before dealing with this measure in any detail, I would like to fill in the background by drawing attention to two developments of recent years which are very relevant to this question of farm structure.

First, we had the Government's decision that land reform must be based on the maintenance of our traditional family farm pattern but that in this day and age the family farm must be capable of yielding a standard of living comparable with that available to similar families engaged in nonagricultural employment. This led to the decision in favour of the 40/45 acre standard.

In making this choice, we were looking into the future and trying to visualise a unit which would be adequate to maintain a family in comfort under the intensified competitive conditions which we will have to face in future. I know that arguments can be made in favour of even larger units of, say, 50 or 60 acres but the available pool of land is limited and our aim is to do the best we can for the greatest number. We all know that there are far too many farmers in Ireland for whom the possession of even a 40-acre farm is still a distant prospect.

Furthermore, it would be foolish to overlook the fact that, in certain districts, intensification and specialisation rather than physical enlargement is the answer to the problem of the small farm. A recent publication on Agrarian Reform by the International Labour Office of Geneva says: "In all parts of the world agrarian reforms, or broadly conceived programmes aimed at improving the agrarian structure, are being implemented or discussed. In the more advanced countries the main emphasis is on making such modifications as are required to enable incomes in agriculture to become more comparable with those in other sectors".

I wish to state clearly that it is into that progressive segment our programme is being fitted.

Next, I wish to refer to the fact that, by and large, too many of the farms of Ireland—for a variety of reasons— stand vacant and let. Often the reason is that the owner began by taking employment abroad for a limited period and then extended his stay until he became a virtually permanent absentee. In some cases the land was left in the hands of ageing people and now that they have died, there are no young people prepared to uproot themselves from city life and come back to farming. The Small Farms Report published a few years ago drew attention to the problem of these vacant and let lands and I have felt it my duty to ensure, by introducing amending legislation, that the Land Commission will be fully empowered to deal with it.

There is no intention on the part of the Government deliberately to reduce the number of families engaged in farming so as to bring about some arbitrary increase in the average size of a farm. Our aim, in fact, is to achieve economic progress through social justice. We want to establish sound economic family units which will quite naturally retain an adequate and contented population on the land. But in order to achieve this we must find means to take up vacant and underworked land, so that it may be used in the building up of viable units.

These are some of the general considerations which influenced me when the Bill was being drawn up. In addition, as a solicitor with considerable experience of land matters, I felt that there were many ways in which Land Commission procedures could be speeded up with benefit to all concerned. The Bill accordingly includes a substantial number of minor reforms which should all contribute towards accelerating the essential job of land structure reform. I say "essential" because I do not see how we can have really good agriculture if we have a major problem of structural reform; nor can our agricultural industry really prosper if tens of thousands of the people engaged in it are underemployed on under-sized units.

I shall now outline briefly all the main points in the Bill. I should like also to draw attention to the fact that the explanatory memorandum on the Bill has been revised to coincide with the text as it now comes before this House.

I think that sections 1, 2 and 3 call for no particular comment and that section 4 is the first item on which I should speak. It is necessary to define "congested areas" for the purposes of two subsequent sections in the Bill and Senators who are familiar with the land code will have noticed that in furnishing a definition, I have used as starting point the "congested districts" of the old Congested Districts Board.

The Second Schedule is in fact a recital of the list of the counties and rural districts given in section 46, sub-section (1) of the Irish Land Act, 1909. But there are other parts of the country which by modern standards must also be regarded as substantially congested, and so that justice may be done to genuinely congested areas whether north, south, east or west, section 4 contains machinery for the making of Ministerial Orders declaring further areas to be congested areas for the purpose of sections 5 and 7. I have in mind that after the enactment of this Bill the Land Commission inspectors will carry out local surveys and submit reports on which a series of such Ministerial Orders will be based. Having regard to the many variable factors involved, we have tried to provide—in subsection (2)—a reasonably elastic formula for determining where congestion exists.

Section 5 provides the basic authority for the introduction of a scheme for the making of loans to progressive farmers in congested areas who are willing to migrate themselves but who lack the necessary capital. Details of this scheme have yet to be finalised but the general pattern is outlined in the White Paper. The procedure used in purchasing the old holding will be that followed under the cash purchase provisions of the 1950 Act—almost exactly the same as in a sale between private persons. When the applicant comes to take over his new holding from the vendor, the Land Commission will be ready to enter into possession of his old holding, pay him at once for it in cash and make available to him the loan. In the typical case, too, the applicant will be taking over existing buildings; he will not have to wait for the erection of new ones as in the case of normal migration.

I should make it clear also that this new scheme, which we might refer to as the "self-migration" scheme, will be in addition to and not in substitution for the current schemes for long-distance, short-distance and local migration which have been in operation for many years.

Section 6 provides authority for an entirely new scheme under which the Land Commission will pay for land by way of life annuity as an alternative to a capital sum and it is designed for the farmer who is no longer able to work his land to full advantage. Where an elderly bachelor owns a farm, or an ageing couple who have no children to succeed them, the tendency is that the land becomes less and less intensively worked. Even where the standard of farming does not notoriously decline, it may be found that it suffers a relative decline through the lack of incentive and the will of the owner to keep abreast of the times. In such a case, it is clearly in the national interest that the owner should be persuaded to allow the lands to pass on to more active hands. But an elderly countryman is not usually prepared to uproot himself and to face into, say, the noisy life of a big town. It seems to me, at all events, that he would more often be prepared to settle for a secure income, a quiet life in his own home in accustomed surroundings and, perhaps, a few roods of garden such as he would be able to tend in his declining years. This is the basic approach of section 6.

Subsection (1) is framed on the assumption that the farmer is willing to sell his land to the Land Commission for cash. If he is, say, 65 years of age or if he is younger but incapacitated, he may obtain an offer of a life annuity, as an alternative to cash. Depending on his own needs and prejudices he may choose either form of payment or, within reasonable limits, a combination of the two. Most often, I should imagine, he will want some hundreds of pounds in cash to meet immediate commitments and he will ask that the remainder be paid on a life-annuity basis. Under subsection (2) there will be a prescribed table of annuities based on life expectancy by which the amount of his life annuity will be established. Such annuity will, in the typical case, be substantially greater than the annual amount which could be got if, say, the vendor had been paid in land bonds; and had retained them as an investment.

It will be noted that subsection (3) provides for "primary" and "secondary" annuities; for married couples this provision is compulsory. I have given careful thought to the question whether the owner of the land should not be given freedom to choose between this double annuity and a once-for-all annuity which would die with him or her. On balance, I have decided that it would be wrong for a State agency to deal with a man on the basis that he would take all for himself and leave nothing for his widow if he should be the first to die.

In the case of the elderly owner who has reached or is approaching the age for a non-contributory old age pension, the scheme will carry the special attraction that the first £3 per week of a Land Commission life annuity based on the purchase price will not reckon for means test purposes. This concession is not mentioned in the Land Bill because it will be dealt with separately under a Social Welfare Bill.

I have given special consideration to the case of the incapacitated man who is by no means elderly and who has a full expectation of life for the reason that the injury or illness which incapacitates him is not such as would hasten death. On a strictly actuarial basis, such a man would be likely to obtain a very small life annuity, perhaps half or one-third of what an elderly man might get for the same property. Accordingly, it is intended that the regulations to be made under subsection (5) (a) should provide for a special additional allowance to be paid to the incapacitated owner from the date of sale until the date he becomes eligible for the old age pension. This will not be part of the life-annuity, which will in every case be calculated strictly in accordance with subsection (2).

Initially I had intended to confine the system of primary and secondary annuities to the most obvious case of the husband and wife but I found there was a great deal of enthusiasm for the scheme as a whole and a widely-held opinion that the secondary annuity should be available for other dependants. Accordingly, in subsection (4) we now have a provision under which a dependent member of the vendor's family may be nominated by him and is then brought within the arrangement for primary and secondary annuities.

Section 7 provides that in the future the halving of annuities will not be conceded to allottees of enlargements, cottiers and other persons in non-congested areas. The existing concession will continue to apply in the case of all allotments in congested areas and in the case of holdings allotted to migrants in the non-congested areas.

Section 8 deals with a doubt which has arisen regarding the Lay Commissioners' powers to summon witnesses to attend at hearings. This power, incidentally, is rarely needed. The real difficulty arises from the fact that a power to summon is of little use if there is not also a power to punish non-compliance. Accordingly, subsections (1) to (3) set up machinery for summoning and examining witnesses and subsection (4) provides that persons guilty of non-attendance or obstruction may be referred to the High Court.

Section 9 simply confirms that a local authority has power to contribute voluntarily towards the cost of Land Commission works from which the local authority derives benefit.

The next two sections deal with maintenance of improvement works and rates on vacant buildings. The provisions are fully explained in the White Paper and it is scarcely necessary to elaborate on them at this stage; in fact they are for relief of local authorities.

Section 12 is of importance because it introduces the idea of a uniform control over the sub-division, letting and subletting of all agricultural land. Under the existing law, in various Acts between 1870 and 1936, the majority of owners of agricultural holdings are obliged to obtain the consent of the Land Commission if they desire to sub-divide or make lettings of their lands. There are a number of exceptions to this requirement, for example, holdings sold under the Land Acts before the Land Act, 1923 are subject to sub-division control only while the purchase annuity is payable. The Land Commission's control over the fragmentation of holdings, therefore, has a very incomplete and patchwork pattern.

The proposition in the section is that there should be uniform control in all cases whether the lands were or were not purchased under the Land Acts; without such uniformity, much of the work of land reform could be impeded or frustrated. Senators will accept, I think, that landowners must not themselves be free arbitrarily to recreate the conditions which we are striving so hard to undo.

As this section has apparently been misunderstood in some quarters, I should like to emphasise that it is simply a matter of unifying and rationalising one part of the Land Acts. The principle it enshrines has been accepted for very many years and it has been applied to all holdings dealt with by the Land Commission under the Land Act of 1923 and all subsequent Acts. I will concede that for many landowners it will mean that where heretofore they were subject to sub-division control for a limited number of years, they will hereafter be subject to such control for an indefinite period. On the other hand, subsection (2) contains a safeguard against arbitrary refusal of consent to sub-division which was not a feature of any of the older sections. Accordingly I cannot see that the section represents any undue interference with property rights. Above all I would emphasise that conacre and grazing lettings on the 11-month system will remain outside this control.

Section 13 is one of the most important provisions in this Bill. It is designed to counteract any deliberate obstruction by way of sale etc., to compulsory acquisition proceedings by the Land Commission. Such attempts at deliberate obstruction are not uncommon and not only do they cause confusion when they occur but they may ultimately result in the proceedings being defeated to the lasting detriment of deserving neighbouring small-holders. It is considered unreasonable that a landowner with a bad ownership record should be able to frustrate the land settlement plans of the Land Commission for a particular locality just by effecting a quick secret sale of the property. The section accordingly provides a system of control on dealings in lands in respect of which the Land Commission have issued a notice of proposed inspection or have begun acquisition proceedings by publishing a provisional list. The period of control following notice of inspection will normally be three months but sub-section (2) contains provision for the imposition of an extended control over another three months' period by special order of the Commissioners.

In many proceedings under the Land Acts, the Land Commission find it necessary to appoint limited administrators to enable dealings to be carried out in relation to lands of deceased persons but over the years the Land Commission and the Land Registry have found that the existing powers in this type of case are deficient in a number of ways. Section 14 is designed to overcome all these difficulties by introducing a new concept of a Land Commission nominee who will represent all parties with interests in a holding. The nominee will normally be the person in effective control of the holding, whether as principal or as agent. There will be legal power to deal with this nominee as if he were the owner, for all purposes except the distribution of purchase money. This procedure will facilitate the completion of the Land Commission proceedings without disturbing the various legal interests in the property.

The traditional system of judicial allocation of purchase moneys followed in the Land Commission has much to recommend it from the point of view of safeguarding the interests of all concerned in a property but it was originally designed to deal with the large tenanted estates which existed at the turn of the century and it often seems a slow and cumbersome machine for dealing with the smaller and simpler type of properties now being dealt with. With a view to expediting this branch of the Land Commission's work, sections 15 and 16 provide for:

(1) the delegation of decision functions to Examiners of Title in the Land Commission and

(2) the authorisation of acceptance of a shorter root of title than heretofore.

So that Examiners may not be inhibited from exercising these enlarged powers, section 17 provides an indemnity for them against actions which parties aggrieved by bona fide decisions might otherwise take. Similar statutory indemnity has always been available to the Public Trustee under the Land Acts. There will be a right of appeal from the Examiners' decisions to the Judicial Commissioner.

Section 18 provides a simple machinery by which game rights which have not been exercised for upwards of 12 years will lapse. This measure will be especially useful where former landlords to whom rights were reserved under the early Land Acts have left the country and their successors cannot readily be traced. It is envisaged that if a farmer wants to have the exclusive game rights over his own lands and if the rights reserved on sale under the Land Purchase Acts have not been exercised for 12 years, he will submit to the Registrar of Titles the necessary proof of non-user. If, because of a valid counter-claim, it appears that the reserved rights have in fact been kept alive, the application under this section will fail but, once the owner of the rights has made himself known, the acquisition of the rights by the landowner can then be dealt with under section 34, Land Act, 1933, or section 39, Land Act, 1936. Thus there will exist comprehensive machinery for dealing with all owners of reserved game rights whether known or unknown. Incidentally, it is intended that the Land Commission themselves should use this section to divest themselves of reserved sporting rights in appropriate cases.

Sections 19, 21, 22 and 23 are all aimed at correcting technical flaws in the existing machinery of resale and revesting. They are explained rather well, I think, in the White Paper and since I cannot deal with them at any length without becoming involved in considerable technical detail, I propose, if Senators have no objection, to await questions on any aspect of these sections which may cause any difficulty.

Section 20 is a novel item which calls for some explanation. Broadly speaking the existing Land Acts, in so far as they deal with rights of way, are concerned with the question of providing access to agricultural land for the purpose of working it. This new proposal is that the Land Commission should have power to create rights of way to rivers, lakes and the sea and furthermore that they should be able to create rights to park vehicles and to moor, anchor or beach boats.

Section 24 provides for adjustments in land finance accountancy to meet some of the effects of the Statute of Limitations, 1957. The Land Commission are in process of losing title to certain annuities, mainly payable in respect of island holdings, because of the operation of the Statute of Limitations. It is desirable to ensure that the resultant deficits will not fall to be borne by the ratepayers but will be defrayed, where necessary, out of central funds.

Section 25, dealing with consolidation of holdings, is the positive counterpart of section 12 which strengthens the power of the Land Commission to resist the fragmentation of agricultural holdings.

An occasional complaint made by vendors against the land bond system of payment is that, when interest rates are generally rising, a higher interest bearing series of land bonds may come into use in the interval between price-fixation and the vesting of the lands, but owing to the terms of the existing law, payment in such case had to be made in the lower interest bearing series. There is no doubt that some landowners in the past had a sense of grievance about this point but because of the stable interest rate of land bond series, for the past three years it has not been a practical problem. Section 26 will put the position right for the future. There is no question, of course, of penalising any landowner should the interest rate fall after price-fixation.

Section 27 and 29 are best considered together. The first makes it clear that it is legal to delegate to a senior inspector of the Land Commission the power to decide on having an inspection of lands with a view to possible acquisition; the second deals with the issue of the inspection notice to the landowner. The reason for these sections is that it is sometimes necessary for the Land Commission to inspect quickly—as when it is believed that an unsuitable sale is about to take place. I must emphasise, however, that the decision to start acquisition proceedings—as distinct from mere inspection —will still be a matter for decision by two Lay Commissioners of the Land Commission.

I now refer back to section 28. This section has been inserted at the request of the Minister for Finance and though it is not of great significance at the present day, I should perhaps give some brief account of its historical background. At the time of the passing of the Irish Land Act, 1903, it was recognised by the authorities of the time that Trinity College, Dublin, would suffer partial losses of income through the redemption under the Land Purchase Acts of superior interests owned by that college. Provision was made for an annual payment of £5,000 to offset such losses. That was section 39 of that Act. The £5,000 was payable to the Public Trustee and he used it to pay the college the amount of actual losses for each year; any surplus at the end of a year was invested by him to be used to cover losses in later years.

Under section 15 of the Land Act, 1923, the 1903 arrangement was abandoned and instead the College was paid a fixed sum of £3,000 per annum. The funds in the hands of the Public Trustee were handed over to the joint control of the Minister for Finance and an officer of the College. The matter has remained so for the past 40 years; mention of the £3,000 to which I have referred will be found in the current book of Estimates under Vote 34—Universities and Colleges— Subhead F2. The Minister for Finance is of the opinion that it is no longer necessary or desirable that he should exercise joint control over these funds and so the Act of 1923 is being amended in such a way as to leave the College in sole control. I should make it clear that all this relates only to the old accumulation of funds handed over in 1923; the disposal of the annual £3,000 has never been subject to the Minister's control.

Section 30 is designed to remove procedural difficulties which have arisen in the Land Registry in the recording of exchanges of holdings carried out by the Land Commission pursuant to section 46 of the Land Act, 1923.

Section 31 settles a very technical point about the precise manner in which valid claims for rates should be met out of purchase and compensation moneys. It confirms the procedure at present followed.

Sections 32 and 37 bring into conformity with monetary changes since 1931 the limits regulating the modified title requirements which under sections 35 and 38 of the Land Act, 1931, and section 52 of the Land Act, 1933, are to be applied in small purchase money and compensation cases. The limits set 30 years ago are much too small in terms of present day values.

Section 33 disposes of some awkward legal points which have arisen in relation to orders conferring and defining rights of way. Section 39 of the Land Act, 1931, in particular, has been found to be of much less widespread application than one would assume from a straightforward reading of it and it is hoped by introducing a re-wording of the unsatisfactory part of it to remedy the flaws found in it.

Reverting to the question of falling money values, we have in section 34 an upward adjustment of the figure in the 1833 Act related to the possible value of the alternative holding which must, in certain circumstances, be provided for the owner of lands acquired.

In section 35, with which section 42 is intimately associated, we come to a very important matter related to the acquisition and resumption of land. I have indicated earlier in this speech why the Land Commission must be provided with the means to deal with vacant and let lands. The law as it stands, and especially section 32 of the Land Act, 1933, is not very effective to deal with this problem because neither absenteeism nor repeated lettings on the 11-months system constitute, of themselves, a sound legal case for compulsory acquisition. Section 32 is chiefly relied upon in objections to compulsory acquisition since it provides a defence based on two "adequates," that is to say, adequate production and adequate employment. But it was established in a legal decision some years ago that these "adequates" did not necessarily have to be supplied by the owner of the land. If the land were let, the production achieved and the employment created by the efforts of the letting holders could be pleaded by the owner toward satisfying the requirements of the two "adequates" under existing law.

Very careful consideration was given to the idea of stipulating that the repeated letting of lands on a short term basis would be good grounds for acquisition by the Land Commission but eventually it was decided that this posed too many problems—especially on the question of proving the existence of a letting. Apart from these considerations, there is the difficulty that not all lettings are to be condemned. If we are to retain a reasonable balance in this matter, we must be prepared to make allowances for cases involving special family circumstances, for instance, the good farmer who falls seriously ill at sowing time, or the widow whose family are too young to work the farm. Accordingly it was decided that the realistic thing to do would be to proceed against lands on the grounds that they are vacant rather than because they are let. In other words, the absentee or non-resident has to be denied the benefit of the "adequates" defence, if the widespread problem is to be seriously tackled.

Another feature of the law on acquisition which causes concern is the fact that a man can use the adequates defence even though he has already indicated his intention to sell his lands. In my view, if a man no longer needs his lands for his own use and if they can be used for the relief of congestion, then they ought to be vulnerable—provided, of course, that market value is paid. This is not very different in principle from the "right of pre-emption" which is enjoyed by land reform bodies in other lands. Accordingly section 35 also provides that the defence of the adequates will not be available to the owner who has tried to sell his lands in the preceding year.

It has been argued that this section bears very heavily on various types of company but especially on "family companies" because they cannot always meet the residence qualification. There are two answers to this criticism. First, if the family company is a genuine one and the principal members of the family reside on the farm I am quite sure the Land Commission will never consider dispossessing them on a technicality. Secondly, and more important, if a special exemption were written in for the benefit of the family company I am quite sure that a great variety of landowners would convert themselves into family companies overnight for the sole purpose of having their lands immune from the attentions of the Land Commission. I should also like to draw attention to the fact that the definition given on page 17, lines 35 to 45, allows the Lay Commissioners when judging the issue of "residence" to make allowances for a great variety of temporary absences from home.

Of special interest, too, is the passage on page 16 of the Bill, lines 33 to 38, dealing with facilities for persons boating or fishing on lake, river or sea. This is the counterpart of the provision in section 20 for the creation of rights in favour of such persons. It is envisaged that in some instances it may be more satisfactory for all concerned to have the land acquired outright rather than have it left to the original owner but burdened by these rights.

Section 42 provides for the amendment of the law relating to resumption of unvested holdings so as to bring it into agreement with the law for acquisition of vested holdings.

Section 36 is another amendment to allow for the changing value of money. In this case, however, a specific financial limit, for certain expenditure on water courses, etc. is to be removed from the statute and replaced by a flexible system of administrative control.

Section 37 I have already dealt with in conjunction with section 32.

Section 38 deals with one other problem affecting the acquisition of vacant and let holdings. Section 38 of the Land Act, 1936, guarantees the immunity from acquisition of a newly-vested holding and this guarantee at present operates for seven years. It is proposed to cut this period from seven to two years.

Section 39 is intended to cover cases in which, following upon acquisition proceedings, landowners obstruct the Land Commission in taking over possession or, in extreme cases, re-enter into possession after the Land Commission have moved in. The purchase money is put to credit but the owner continues to act in such a way that the Land Commission suffer damages and loss of revenue, and also incur legal costs in dealing with him. The law permits of claims to recover many of these sums but it has been found to be deficient in some respects but most of all in relation to claims arising after the date of vesting, that is to say, principally in cases of re-entry.

Sections 40 and 43 improve certain aspects of the law relating to the sale of default holdings, the writing off of all or part of the arrears and the recovery of such arrears or part of them by way of advance to the new purchaser.

Section 41 rectifies a legal defect in the machinery for partitioning commonages. Its effect will be that burdens attaching to an undivided share will transfer fully to the appropriate divided share and will be re-registered in Land Registry accordingly.

It has been considered necessary under several headings, to expand the cash purchase provisions of the Land Act, 1950, that is to say, sections 27 and 28. In this Bill, the really significant item covering cash purchase is the second-last item in the Repeals Schedule. The removal of a small part of section 27 of the 1950 act will eliminate the narrow statutory restrictions on cash purchases which have confined them to lands required for migrants' holdings or for the rearrangement of fragmented holdings. This is not to say that all future acquisitions will be paid for in cash; the practical extent to which the expanded 1950 provisions will operate will have to be settled administratively from time to time.

Section 44 is a corollary to the repeal I have just dealt with. It will free the hands of the Land Commission in reselling lands on hands which were purchased under the narrower formula existing before the repeal.

Section 45 is an entirely new departure in the Land Acts—introducing as it does a form of absolute control over the purchase of farm land by non-nationals. It is necessarily quite a complicated section and there is a great deal of material in it. I am not at all sure that a long verbal exposition by me would be the best way of explaining its provisions in detail. In the explanatory memorandum, there is a summary, subsection by subsection, and I trust that Senators will find the White Paper helpful in following the scheme of the provisions.

The essence of the section, which is to be found in sub-section (2), is that only certain "qualified" persons and bodies may ordinarily acquire any interest in rural land. All others must seek the consent of the Land Commission.

To achieve this object in practice, it is laid down in subsection (3) that an instrument purporting to vest an interest in land must contain the evidence that the transferee or beneficiary is either qualified or is exempt from the control or has obtained the consent of the Land Commission.

The real check-point of the control system will in almost all cases be the Land Registry. It will not be possible for a purchaser of rural property to have his title registered unless he shows that he can satisfy the requirements of section 45. But even the right to become registered is "caught" by the section so that if an unqualified person tries to purchase a farm and delay registration he will be putting himself in an impossible position; the transaction will be null and void for want of Land Commission consent.

It has been my aim—while framing a system of strict control—to avoid, where possible, creating undue difficulties in relation to ordinary dealings between our own people. In pursuance of this policy, it is provided that the Land Commission's consent will not be needed in the case of purchase by the local authorities, the principal banks, semi-State bodies, charitable companies and various other persons and bodies who should receive the same treatment as nationals or who are, by their nature, unlikely to be used as a cover for secret purchases by non-nationals.

On the other hand, the ordinary commercial company will have to be subject to the general control. I am satisfied that it would not be practicable to exempt an Irish company or a mainly Irish company without creating a very big risk that non-nationals would find a means to obtain effective control of land by the manipulation of paper companies specially created to evade this law.

Other important features to which I invite attention are the machinery in subsection (4) for examining the affairs of suspected persons and, in subsections (6) and (7), the heavy penalties which will attach to the making of false statements and similar types of offences under the section. In general, however, it is expected that there will be no great need to make use of these penalty provisions. The section is tightly drawn and I think the prospects of successful evasion would be so poor that no foreigner would risk becoming entangled in it.

Section 46 is a minor amendment of the 1953 Act to facilitate the Land Commission work on exchanges and re-arrangements.

The first eight items in the Repeals Schedule are associated with the sub-division control to be set up under section 12 of the Bill. They represent the various parts of the older patchwork of control which is now being abandoned.

The ninth item is one with which I have dealt in speaking upon the general question of the purchase of land for cash.

The last item is very much a matter of technical detail. Part of section 15 of the Land Act, 1953, is listed for repeal because it will be rendered redundant by the wording of section 31 of this Bill.

This Bill has been carefully prepared and has been subjected to a very long scrutiny. I have not been slow to introduce amendments wherever I was persuaded that they were genuinely desirable. It is generally acknowledged that maldistribution and defects in the agrarian structure are impediments to the social and economic good: this Bill is framed against such impediments. It is a Bill which will be of great assistance to the Land Commission in carrying out their important work and I confidently recommend it to the Seanad.

This Bill is like the curate's egg: it has its good parts, with which we agree, but it also has some very bad parts. We are not opposed to the Bill as a whole but only to those sections which deprive landowners of the rights of free sale and fixity of tenure. Our Party have stated that congestion can and will be dealt with as a matter of urgency and without interfering, we believe, with the legal and historical rights of those who own the land of Ireland.

Under this Bill, a landowner must get the permission of the Land Commission before setting, letting, transferring or selling his land. Furthermore, the Minister can send his inspectors to inspect any land and can make an order freezing the land for a period of three months and, if the Commissioners so apply, for a further three months, during which time no person can deal with the land. That will result in devaluing it. It is expected that the Fianna Fáil Government will use this device to exert political pressure on those who do not actively support the Fianna Fáil Party.

The sections of the Bill to which we are opposed are, in my opinion, a form of dictatorship. They have the effect of turning back the pages of history and by a stroke of the pen throwing away the years of bloodshed and struggle on the part of the Irish farmer to gain ownership of his land. As I have said, we have a policy to meet the problem of congestion but we are not prepared to abolish the rights of free sale and fixity of tenure which took generations and the loss of good men to obtain.

I also claim that certain sections of this Bill offend the natural law and the rules of natural justice. It proposes, with Henry VIII clauses, to delegate arbitrary power to the Minister and to the Land Commission. To my mind, it is not the best way to solve the problem of congestion which we are all agreed, on both sides of the House, should be solved, and this attempt to do so may undermine the victory whereby the Irish farmer became the owner of his farm, a victory which was so dearly bought by our forefathers with the aid of unselfish patriots like Charles Stewart Parnell, Michael Davitt, John Blake Dillon and many others we could name. At column 1028, volume 213, of the Dáil Debates of 15th December, 1964, the Minister for Lands, Mr. Moran, said:

The people of East Galway, the people of Mayo, need this Bill. They want it and so does everyone who wants to get rid of land slums. Notwithstanding the death of the 1881 Act, notwithstanding the smoke-screens that are being thrown up, this Bill will be appreciated as a charter on Irish land law that will give renewed hope to the people in the land slums, that will enable them to achieve a decent standard of living.

There is no denying that in office and out of office, the Fianna Fáil Party have never failed to voice a false concern for the west of Ireland. Let us examine the results that have followed from that pretended anxiety on their part over a long number of years. The sign of economic expansion in any part of the country is the willingness of those with capital to invest and the consequent increase in population resulting from the security and the employment, whether it be on the land or elsewhere. Applying that test to the west of Ireland a sorry picture emerges. The Bishop of Cork, Most Reverend Dr. Lucey, on numerous occasions has stated that the real yardstick of the prosperity of any area is the number of boys and girls living at home, marrying, rearing families and staying at home. Using that yardstick and realising that 300,000 people have been driven from the land of Ireland in the past 30 years we must admit that the land policy over the past 30 years has been a failure.

Let us quote the Minister's words: "The people of East Galway, the people of Mayo need this Bill." I want to say to the Minister for Lands and to the Government that governments are elected to determine and promote the public interest, not the interest of their own counties, their own constituencies or their own provinces. Despite all the Minister has stated, the people of the west, in East Galway and in Roscommon, have repudiated in no uncertain way the Government's Land Bill. Although in Roscommon the Taoiseach made it the principal plank in his programme, it was repudiated there and also in East Galway.

We should be fair to the people. There is no justification for the Minister and the Government trying to hoodwink the small farmers and the congests into believing that their economic salvation is around the corner by reason of this Land Bill. It is not, and the past has proved that. As I have already stated, some of the proposals will be of benefit at a later stage. The Government's land policy and the policy of the Land Commission is one of the most important questions that could be discussed in this House, where it is getting us and what the results are so far. Statistics viewed merely as such can present deadly dull reading matter but when they relate to the number of people, for example, driven from the land of Ireland, they spring to life immediately as vital human elements. In the past 30 years, 300,000 people have left the land. Even in the years 1961-62, according to recent statistics, 18,000 people left the land. In the Government's Second Programme for Economic Expansion, it is envisaged that a further 66,000 people will be driven from the land of Ireland between now and 1970.

That is a defeatist attitude, an attitude with which we do not agree. We all agree, on both sides of the House, that it is to the people on the land of Ireland that we must look for the revival necessary for the survival of Ireland as an independent economic entity. The situation revealed by the latest figures we have received in the matter of manpower on the land is so disastrous that one is left wondering if there can be any economic revival at all. We are entitled to ask: is there anything in this Land Bill to keep those people on the land?

I know speakers here will advance different arguments as to why people leave the land of Ireland. It is pointless for anyone to argue here that the young people who are living on the land, young people born into the atmosphere of Irish farming and succeeding generations of farmers on their native soil, suddenly develop a wanderlust and, overnight as it were, turn their backs on their homes, their kinsfolk and on their way of life. These people are lost to Ireland because they can see little prospect of a decent standard of living on the land of Ireland; despite all our land legislation, they can see no future on the land from which they sprang. Despite all we are told has been done and all that we are promised will be done, and the Minister has said there is a new charter for the small farmers, and especially the farmers of the west of Ireland, the flight from the land of 300,000 in the past 30 years is a blazing indictment of the policy that has masqueraded as land settlement in this country. Let us face that fact.

There has been a great deal of trumpeting and publicity in relation to the activities of the Land Commission in recent years.

Every time a few families are moved from the rockbound western seaboard to farms in Meath and Westmeath, the nation is invited to join in a great hosanna of praise for the Minister for Lands and his army of officials and inspectors. What has the Department or the Minister offered the 300,000 who have turned their backs on the land? The answer is "nothing". What is there in this Bill to try to keep the people on the land? The tragedy of the exodus is to be found, perhaps, not so much in its stunning total but in the permanent loss to the Irish nation of basic agricultural knowledge and training.

It is unfortunate for this country that through lack of progressive land policy, our primary export from the land has not been produce but the people who are destined to develop the land of Ireland. The Statistics Office have found the Department of Lands guilty of neglect and inaction. Time was when the maladministration associated with the occupation of this country could be blamed for the national illness in which wealth accumulated and men decayed. Today, decay represented in the flight from the land is chronic and the blame must rest squarely on the shoulders of the Government, the Minister for Lands and the Land Commission. We cannot blame the English or anybody else for it. Paddy Smith, a colleague of the Minister in the Fianna Fail Government, saw this. When he realised it, and from his inside information he knew he could get no change in the Government, and no chance for the small farmers of the country, he resigned from the Government in protest. Is not the policy followed in this Land Bill by the Minister for Lands the very same policy on which Paddy Smith was in conflict with the Taoiseach? It was because of this policy that he resigned.

The Minister stated in his remarks here today that he was in favour of achieving economic progress through social justice. It would be better if he said that his aim was to achieve social justice through economic progress. I believe this Bill is just an attempt on the part of the Government to hoodwink still further the unfortunate congests and the small farmers of Ireland. Recent trends show that Fianna Fáil are no longer in a position to delude the small farmers and the congests because in many places large tracts of land which became available over the past ten years have been allowed to pass into the hands of people already well off, of people who were not in need of land. In many instances people purchased land to evade their responsibilities in respect of income tax and other State charges. At the same time, small farmers in the vicinity of these large farms were unable to obtain land although in many cases they were promised land. The land which was given to the big farmers should have been divided amongst those small farmers.

The land of Ireland, on which the prosperity of each and every one depends, has for too long been made the plaything of Party politicians. It is a well-known fact. It happens in my own county and I have first-hand knowledge of the taking down before an election of the names and addresses of people who would get their neighbour's land. I can give a true story of a Deputy who, just before a general election, held a meeting in a particular house. Of course, the place was crowded. He said: "Is there anyone who wants his name and address taken down for land division?" Twelve or 14 people rushed over to him. The Deputy started taking down their names and addresses. He then came to the name of the townland, which was hard to spell. It was Rathcliffey. The owner of the house looked over his shoulder and started to laugh. The Deputy asked him what he was laughing at and asked, if he was spelling the townland wrong, why could he not tell him how to spell it. The man said he had been writing down the name of that townland for the past 21 years and he should know how to spell it by now. That is a true story and many other people in Westmeath can verify it. There is also the case of inspectors of the Land Commission out walking land for three weeks or more before an election. That has happened in many counties.

I know another farmer in the midlands whose land should have been taken from him years ago for division but was not taken. The reason is well known. He happened to be a member of our Party, but being afraid that his land would be taken, joined the local cumann and subscribed handsomely to it. He joined the cumann shortly after a local Deputy made a very vicious speech about the provision of land. There was great clapping and cheering. When the Deputy had finished speaking —there was an election due shortly afterwards — this gentleman walked over to him and said he was surprised at the speech he made about the dividing of land. The answer he got back was: "You must play the tune the people want but you need not be afraid because your land will be all right. It will not be touched." He played the tune the people wanted and the land was not touched since.

If anybody denies there is this political pull, I can quote Mr. O'Brien in the Westmeath Examiner of September 12th, 1964. He was for a long time a member of the National Executive of Fianna Fáil. Mr. O'Brien said that they all knew that if a landowner was confronted with the prospect of some of his land being taken and he got in with the political Party in power and knew the right man, nothing was surer than that his land would be left to him, that it had happened in the past and would happen again. That is a statement by Mr. James O'Brien, member of Westmeath County Council, who was, for a long number of years, a member of the National Executive of the Fianna Fáil Party, and if he does not know what happens in the inner circle, I do not know who does. Knowing what has gone on in the past and, as Mr. O'Brien says, what will go on in the future—and we all know it will happen again—is it any wonder that we object to the political head of the Department of Lands being given power in this Bill to initiate the process for the acquisition of land by directing an inspection for that purpose?

I should like to ask the Minister to explain in which cases he intends to issue instructions for such inspections. On whose recommendation will they be made? If representations are made by the local Fianna Fáil cumann to inspect farms owned by Fine Gael supporters, will the Minister, in order to give patronage to his own Party and its supporters, hasten the inspection of such land or will he wait until a month or two before a general election and then ensure that the Land Commission inspectors will be busy appearing all over the farms the Minister has listed so that the local Deputy or candidate for the Party can send out letters such as are being, and have been, sent out stating that the Minister has authorised an inspection and that the moment it is over, such-and-such a person will get his 45 acres of land?

We know things like that happened in the East Galway by-election. We know there were 400 acres of land and that one Deputy sent out letters to 500 people in the area promising them parcels of land. The people did not fall for it, thank God. I believe the power vested in the Minister in the Bill can lead to very serious abuses. We are legislating for the future. We may argue that the present Minister would not abuse this power but we do not know what Minister will be there next year or the year afterwards.

The Senator might be there.

The Party have more sense than that. I would not mind another month in Galway but not anything like that. We are told this is done to save time but that is nonsense. I should like the Minister to say how it can save time because, in my view, the time that would be saved under section 27 is not worth the candle.

Up to this the decision to inspect land was left entirely to the Land Commission and the inspectors. Has the Minister lost faith in his inspectors? Does he think they have been approached or got at politically not to inspect some people's land? For over 40 years Ministers in different Governments, Cumann na nGaedheal, Fianna Fáil, inter-Party, Fianna Fáil again, inter-Party again and now Fianna Fáil again, have always defended, even against vigorous persuasion by their own supporters, the principle that the political head of the Department of Lands should not accept responsibility for the decision as to whether land should be inspected or not. I think they were quite right in their attitude not to yield to the temptation.

When this Bill was going through the Dáil, an amendment was proposed by Fine Gael in these terms:

The Minister shall lay before Dáil Éireann on the 1st day of February, the 1st day of May, the first day of August and the 1st day of November in every year a list giving particulars of the cases in which he has authorised an officer to make a determination pursuant to subsection (1) of this section.

That was a very reasonable amendment and if the Minister claims that everything is above-board, that there would be no political intimidations, why could he not accept this amendment and agree to lay on the Table of the House the list of farms he has ordered to be inspected? If there is nothing to hide, can he give one good reason for refusing? Is he satisfied that there is to be continued secrecy, whispering and privacy about whose lands are to be inspected? Until he agrees to the suggested procedure, in my opinion, the Minister is suspect and it will be our duty, as the principal Opposition Party, to do our part to protect the people from political blackmail and intimidation and from arrogant and dictatorial legislation. Justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done.

I want to raise the question of the length of time the Land Commission hold land. This is something that should have been dealt with in the Bill. For his own protection and that of his successors, the Minister should have ensured that the Land Commission would not take over a farm and proceed to let it year after year. We all know it is abused if let for too long, especially if owned by the Land Commission. If a farmer owns it, he may see to it that it is not abused, but if let by the Land Commission whose inspectors may be 30, 40 or 50 miles away and there is nobody to look at it from one end of the year to another, it can be, and very often is, abused.

On 21st April, 1964, the Minister answered a question in the Dáil and stated that in County Westmeath 4,418 acres of land awaited division, some of which had been held by the Land Commission since 15th November, 1960; that in County Meath there were 7,843 acres awaiting division, some of which had been in the hands of the Commission since 17th April, 1957; and that in County Kildare the Land Commission held 2,750 acres, some of it since November 5th, 1956, eight years. I hope, and we all hope, that the Minister will expedite the division of land when it is taken over in future and not hold it for from two to eight or ten years as they do in some cases at present.

The Land Commission under this Bill have power to take land that has been let for too long a period, and Deputy Carty, a Fianna Fáil Deputy, stated in the Dáil:

They may find out that they themselves are the biggest culprits and some other statutory body may have to be set up to take from the Land Commission land which they themselves have been holding for 10 or 12 years.

I am quoting from volume 206, column 178 of the Official Report for 28th November, 1963.

I am surprised that there is nothing in the Bill to deal with the bad housing conditions in rural Ireland. If the Land Commission are building new houses, and providing new farms, they should be given the added responsibility of providing new houses—subject to suitable arrangements—on existing small farms on which people get an additional bit of land. That would help to keep the boys and girls on the land, and encourage them to get married. I want to suggest to the Minister that if we are to get effective land reform, and if we are to keep the young people on the land, happy and contented, one of the first essentials is good housing. If we are to have young people firmly fixed on the land we must envisage a situation in which girls are prepared to marry into farms and raise families.

Many girls today are not prepared —and we cannot blame them—to go into hovels, and be the hewers of wood and drawers of water. Their sisters in the towns and cities do not have to trudge half a mile with a can on a bicycle or under their arms to get water, and they are not prepared to do so. That day is gone. There is very little use in giving a man 40 or 45 acres of land without having regard to the house in which he must live and the social amenities he enjoys. If he is to settle down, marry, rear a family and stay on the land he must have a good house, with running water and electric light, and he must have good roads. He is entitled to what his brothers and sisters in the towns and cities have, comfortable homes with all modern amenities.

I am entitled to ask what benefits this Land Bill will bring to the farmers of Westmeath and Longford. In Westmeath we have 9,257 holdings. Of those 2,312 holdings are under one acre. If we take those out it leaves us with 6,945 holdings. Some people may hardly credit this but out of those holdings, 4,681 are under 50 acres. In Westmeath, to which people on the other side of the House refer as the home of the ranchers, 3,099 holdings are under 30 acres. In Longford there are 7,085 holdings, 1,340 of which are under one acre. We will disregard them because they are mostly cottage gardens and plots. That leaves us with 5,745 agricultural holdings in Longford, 4,552 of which are under 50 acres, and 3,163 of which are under 30 acres. Those people need land, and they are entitled to it.

If I relate the problem being tackled by the Bill to the question of what will happen in Westmeath and Longford, I can see the immensity of the problem for the Minister and the Land Commission in that area alone. If you total the two figures, there are 6,262 farms in Westmeath and Longford of less than 30 acres. Those people are entitled to land. I cannot see how a solution is physically possible unless we are to take the people from that area and put them somewhere else. The land is not in Longford and Westmeath, and they are not mentioned in the Second Schedule. I want to know from the Minister if that means they are to be excluded from the national land policy, because it looks like that. All the favours seem to be going to the people in congested areas. Does that mean that the people in that part of our national territory— Longford and Westmeath—are not to be the subject of care or concern in the Land Bill?

In the Second Schedule, the Minister has defined second areas as congested areas. I would ask him to include certain parts of Westmeath and Longford where there are many uneconomic holdings. There is power in the Bill to do that and many areas have been congested for a long number of years and the position is not improving. We all know there are pockets of congestion in every part of the country. The Second Schedule refers to Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Leitrim, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon and parts of West Clare.

There is a weakness in section 4 of the Bill which attempts to make congested districts by Ministerial Order. I should like to ask the Minister on whose recommendations and on what grounds he made that provision? The Minister has specified congested areas along the Atlantic coast. I think in his speech he said he was going to instruct the Commissioners to carry out investigations in other parts of the country, and I hope that will be done immediately. We know the Minister is from Mayo and I suppose it is only natural that he should be prejudiced in favour of the west but, as a Minister of State, he should not single out any province or any area. He should treat the whole country equally and no area should suffer any disadvantage under this Bill because the Minister is from the west, or anywhere else.

I come now to the very big problem of the landless men. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong but I think there is provision in this Bill under which cottage tenants can obtain land. Over the years there has been a good deal of confusion as to whether or not cottage tenants are entitled to land. As far as I am aware, the Land Commission have never laid down any regulation debarring cottage tenants and I have known some of them to obtain accommodation plots of five or ten acres. If the Minister, or anybody else interested, is prepared to take the trouble to have a look at these people, he will find that the vast majority have made good and proper use of their land.

I mention this because last Sunday a very fine type of young man, a man of 24 or 25 years, came to see me. He is an agricultural labourer living in a cottage. Through his hard work and industry, he now has four or five cows, five or six calves, a few sheep and a few pigs. For a great many years, he has been taking 14 acres of land but, because of this Bill, this land is now being sold. He does not know what he will do. He is in a very difficult position. he is not entitled to land. I believe such a man should be entitled to land. He is the kind of man who should be given land and I hope there is provision in this Bill to give land to people of this type.

There are, too, the farmers with 45 or 50 acres of land and two or three hardworking sons living at home. There is no provision in this Bill for these. I am not saying there should be because I know the pool of land is not there and it is, therefore, almost impossible to make provision for them. The farm apprenticeship scheme may do something for these people but it is wrong to raise false hopes that people will get land under this Bill. All we have is the land that is there.

I mention this because this Bill, like all the other Land Bills, may encourage thousands of landless men and small farmers into the belief that there is a chance of their getting land. Hundreds of small farmers will believe there will be land available, when this Bill is passed, to enlarge their existing holdings. It should be pointed out that only a fraction will be able to get extra land and we should not build up false hopes —unfortunately they have been built up in some areas—in the minds of all and sundry that land will be available for division, because the land definitely is not there. As I have pointed out, there are 4,000 farmers in Westmeath and 3,000 in Longford entitled to land and the land is not there for them. If they were to get land, they would have to be shifted to some other part of the country, and that just cannot be done.

The proposal to enable elderly, incapacitated persons to retire from farming and, in return for their lands, to get an annuity from the Land Commission, with a right of residence in the existing dwellinghouse, is a good one and I sincerely hope it will work. I should like to ask the Minister, however, has he made the category eligible to avail of this provision wide enough? In rural Ireland there are situations in which it is manifestly desirable that those in possession of small holdings should pass them on to people who are willing and able to work them. There are old spinsters holding on to land by letting some of their land. It would be much better if they took a pension and settled down in the adjoining town or village. There are categories other than those, people who are incapacitated, who could with advantage avail of this provision. Where the provision is purely optional and the initiative lies with the tenant, is there any objection to making it pretty wide?

I am glad people are being encouraged rather than compelled. I think we all understand the Irish temperament: one can lead the Irish but it is very hard to drive them. Compulsion has killed many things in this country. We should all like this experiment to be successful. If Irish landowners take kindly to it, an extra pool of land will be available for distribution each year. I hope we shall never see the day when a Minister or a Government will be given the power to compel people either to retire from or to surrender their homes, the homes in which, in many cases, they were born and reared. I appreciate the difficulty of encouraging old people especially; they are generally suspicious particularly of anything suggested to them by younger people. I trust the encouragement offered in this Bill will meet with a favourable response. It may take time and we all have a duty in this matter. So have our clergy, our teachers, our bank managers, our solicitors and others, who are often called upon to give advice; as far as possible they should encourage these people to avail of the provisions in this Bill. I regard them as very good provisions.

I want now to refer to the change in the annuity system. Is the Minister really serious when he suggests one man should pay twice what his neighbour pays? Is that right? Where is the justice when a person from a congested district pays half the annuity while the local person, be he a cottage tenant, a landless man, or a small farmer, who gets land on the same farm will have to pay the full annuity, which will be double what his neighbour will pay?

This looks to me like a device to reduce the number of applicants for land outside the congested areas. Is it the idea to make the land so dear that those outside the congested areas will be afraid to apply for it because they will not be able to pay for it? It is wrong to adopt two different attitudes in respect of people settling on the same farm. Suppose a man in Leitrim gets a farm on Mr. A's land in Westmeath and a neighbour just over the border in Longford also gets a farm in Westmeath, on Mr. A's land; the man from Leitrim will pay £40 per year and the man from Longford will pay £80 per year. I see no justice in that. People, irrespective of where they come from, should be treated equally There is no element of fair play in this proposal and I think the Minister should reconsider it.

There are other sections in the Bill with which we do not agree. The seriousness and importance of section 12, for instance, do not seem to have sunk into the consciousness of everybody. It provides that the letting, subletting or subdivision of land shall be subject to the consent of the Land Commission. I regard that as a serious infringement of the rights of ownership. When the Bill is passed, it will be necessary for the owner of agricultural land to relinquish his rights to do what he wishes with his land, land which has probably been in his family for generations. This is a very strange provision and the majority of landowners, big and small, will object seriously to this section, particularly the small landowners who often have to go away to England, perhaps, and let their lands.

The provisions of this section constitute a serious threat to the rights of landowners. Proceeding on the principles enunciated by James Fintan Lalor "that the land of Ireland is for the people of Ireland to have and to hold from God alone who made it," fee simple ownership is defined as a "right availing against the whole world over a thing indefinite in point of user, unrestricted in point of duration." Section 12 subsection (1) of the Bill reads:

An agricultural holding shall not be let, sublet or subdivided without the consent in writing of the Land Commission....

The interpretation of "holding" is defined in subsection (8) of section 12 and includes a fee simple holding. This section not only offends the legal definition of ownership but to my mind is also against the natural law. Man, I suppose because of his intellect, his will and his reasoning power, has the capacity for ownership and in this section the Government claim to exercise this power without restriction or limitation of time. They are trying to assert what in fact is not true, that the Government own the land. The issue raised is whether the farmers own the land. The Constitution never envisaged the claim of the State, or any Minister, or Department of State to the land.

Section 13 goes further; it is a prohibition on the sale, transfer, letting or subletting and purports to restrict the concessions known as the three F's. This arbitrary section is more in keeping with the USSR than with Irish democracy. There is much more we can say on those sections on the Committee Stage. The people of the west cannot afford the kind of progress that Fianna Fáil propose for the next decade.

Their policy for the land has been a failure and while there are promises of better times in this Bill, people cannot live on promises alone. Fianna Fáil have been in power for 27 years out of the past 33 years and during those years almost 300,000 people have been driven from the land. Those figures should frighten any Government out of their slumbers. With all the Government's programmes and all their Bills and despite all we were told about progress, even during the past five or six years, 18,000 people left, between 1961 and 1962.

I said somewhere else that Saint Patrick drove the snakes from Ireland, Brian Boru drove out the Danes and it has taken Fianna Fáil and a city-dominated Government to drive the people from the land. Alone amongst the nations of the world we have a decreasing population. If there is a more depressing fact about Ireland today than the flight from the land, it is the Government's acceptance of it as a normal and a natural solution for many of our ills. Does anyone who sees thousands of our youth leaving the land every year have to be an expert to see that there is something wrong with Government policy, that there is something wrong with our land policy? Does anybody who sees the abandoned farmsteads all over the country not have to agree that the Government's land policy is wrong? Let us remember that under British rule families were reared in those farmsteads and homes and they were able to stay on the land and able to make a decent living on the land. There must be something wrong with the Government's land policy when the people cannot make a living on the same land under an Irish Government. Since they will not get out fast enough under their own steam, they will be forced out more rapidly by this Bill because that is what must happen, if we are to give 45 or 50 acres of land to applicants.

The small farmers are not considered economically viable in the phrase of the day. Why? Because of Government land policy for the past 30 years. We are told they are a brake on progress and that too many small holdings are at present held by bachelors, old maids, aged couples. The reason for that alone is Government policy; the Economic War, high taxation and rates have impoverished those people, driven them from the land and left them in the position that they could not get married on the land. Many of us who have been in the west recently have to agree that in the townlands, despite all the Minister said about this new charter—and every Land Bill in the past was a new charter for the west and the rest of the country—the lights in the homes are going out one by one. It is a pity because they are grand people. They withstood Cromwell but they do not seem to be able to withstand Fianna Fáil.

The 1916 Proclamation guaranteed equal rights and equal opportunity to all citizens and declared its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally. We all know that the 1916 Proclamation does not apply as far as the small farmer is concerned, especially in the west. For many years the policy of Fianna Fáil has been to make the rich richer and the poor poorer; therefore the west has suffered and the people have had to leave the land. I do not see this Bill doing anything for the smallholders in Westmeath or Longford and I do not see it holding out much hope to those people of enlargement.

Then the Senator should not ask me to apply it to Longford-Westmeath.

I said that I did not see it as at present doing any good for those people. If you are prepared to make any part of the area a congested area, as part of Longford should be—

You will not give it a chance.

I believe that Fianna Fáil now and in the future are incapable of saving the west and keeping the people on the land. Let us admit it. The facts and figures are there. They have failed miserably in the past and the facts and figures cannot be denied. Fianna Fáil have mismanaged our land affairs for the past 30 years. They are not capable of formulating a policy in a statesmanlike fashion or planning ahead for the economic development of the land. It is very difficult to expect an incompetent Government wrongly administering an ill-conceived policy to devise a Land Bill which will extract the full fruits from the land. We know that the Government are split, confused, dithering and dallying, and the country today needs a blood transfusion in the form of younger men at the helm.

The Old Guard of Fianna Fáil have failed the people on the land; younger men and a new Government are needed to give the country a fillip and a stimulus and a progressive Land Bill to help the people on the land and to keep them there. We are in the position we are in today because the Fianna Fáil Government and the Fianna Fáil Party have given only lip-service to the teachings and writings of James Fintan Lalor, being all the time diametrically opposed to them. James Fintan Lalor said that the only foundation that is firm under the foot of a nation was a secure and independent peasantry.

The Fianna Fáil idea has been to impoverish the agricultural community of small farmers. The complacency of the Government in the face of the flight from the land is alarming and shows how completely out of touch with the facts they are. The Government are out of touch with the real problems of Irish rural life. Sometimes it seems as if they live on another planet. High life takes precedence over high thinking. They seem to be living in a coma of intoxication.

I should like to finish by paraphrasing the words of Lalor and applying them to the lip-service given by Fianna Fáil for so long to the agricultural community. They are far less important to the people than the people are to them. They cannot stand or act alone. If they fail the people as they have done so often in the past, they will wither and vanish.

Whether one likes this Bill or not, one must wonder at the courage of the Government in introducing a Land Bill and a Succession Bill in the one parliamentary session. Land and family property are probably the two most contentious matters in our whole political economy. We all know how much agony of hearts and controversy of minds land questions have aroused among our citizens in the past. But, of course, land hunger is not confined to Ireland or to Western Europe. There are parts of Greece where the dead are not allowed to rest in their graves more than two or three years on account of land hunger. After two or three years, the remains of the dead are removed from the cemeteries and brought to church mortuaries there to remain for the rest of their physical existence. Because land is so precious in certain parts of Greece the Greeks will not extend the cemeteries. They grudge every foot of land and after a while even the dead must yield to the land hunger. Fortunately, in this country we are not reduced to such extremes. But our national and historical feelings about land are as strong, I imagine, as anywhere in the world. Probably no other topic in our politics is more likely to arouse ancient animosities.

Certainly the Government have shown courage in introducing this Bill when their parliamentary majority is so small. They risked a great deal of unpopularity. But courage—and I say it with conviction—has been consistently the quality of Fianna Fáil. I say it with conviction—has been conParty man. The Taoiseach's recent invitation to Stormont was a fine example of Fianna Fáil courage.

He was invited up.

It is much easier to give an invitation of that kind than to accept it, as we all know very well.

Senator L'Estrange should be ashamed of himself. No one interrupted him.

The Taoiseach accepted that invitation——

I was often interrupted.

The Senator spoke for two hours and no one interrupted him.

Senator Boland is very kind, but I can look after myself. If necessary, I probably have as loud a voice as Senator L'Estrange. The Taoiseach showed this kind of courage in risking trouble and unpopularity, from some quarters at least. But he can rest assured that history will give him high credit for this bold and statesmanlike action.

When such good examples have been set so recently, a Senator cannot now, with any self-respect, shirk an unpopular task in the present debate. This unpopular task I am, to some extent, assuming. I propose in some of what I say to speak for the owners of big houses and large estates. Earlier this afternoon a Senator, just before the House assembled, told me that when a previous Land Bill came before the House, feeling rose so high on the topic of the big houses that counter-cheers were prevalent even in this normally peaceful House. I do not think such feeling will be around on this occasion.

I am not personally involved in the interests of people who own big houses or large estates. My own two acres of rocky hillside in Dalkey do not come under the terms of the Bill. I take my stand, peculiarly enough, on something Senator L'Estrange said. He quoted the words of Pearse, those noble words from the 1916 Proclamation:

Cherishing all the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien Government which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

This generous catholicity of the 1916 Proclamation did not exclude the owners of the big houses.

Turning to the Bill itself, much of it is obviously excellent. I congratulate the Minister and the Government on bringing it in. There are some sections which I propose to criticise because I believe they need some improvement. The Minister has invited questions, so much of what I shall say at this preliminary stage will be in the form of questions, as a preparation to further action on the Committee Stage.

I turn first to section 12 which involves the prohibition of letting, subletting or subdivision of certain holdings without the consent of the Land Commission. The burning question here is whether this includes conacre lettings or not. I know that the Minister has said very clearly in the Dáil that as the law of the land is at present, this cannot include conacre— that the law as it has been administered in the country for many years makes it perfectly clear that conacre did not come in.

He went a little further—I rather regret this—and said that a perfectly responsible amendment introduced by a Deputy was introduced "for one purpose and one purpose only—to create fear outside the House, to terrorise the people, to terrorise the poor widow into believing that she could not let her land for 11 months". That statement is reported at column 709 of volume 213 of the Dáil Debates. I would ask the Minister to reconsider that attitude. He said those words in the course of a long and heated discussion in the Dáil. The atmosphere in this House is generally cooler and calmer. I ask him: is there any objection to stating precisely in this Bill what the present law holds? In other words, is there any objection to accepting such an amendment as Deputy Oliver Flanagan suggested, namely:

For the removal of doubt, it is hereby declared that an agistment, conacre or grazing letting is not a letting, subletting or sub-division within the meaning of this section.

If it is the law at present, why not include it in the statute? I am not pleading this to arouse any alarm or anything of that kind. Some very levelheaded persons are slightly worried that this Bill might tip the balance in the courts so that in future this kind of subletting might come under the Bill. I am asking the Minister a very simple question without any desire to arouse alarm. Why does he not simply incorporate it in the Bill? It would be a sign of strength on his part if he would reconsider it and accept an amendment to that effect in this House.

The next section I should like to look at is section 13—prohibition of sale, transfer, letting or subletting of certain lands without consent of the Land Commission. This freezes all dealings for a year after publication of intention to inspect the lands. As far as I can see, no exception is made to permit sales required by reason of a court order or for the purpose of winding up the estate of a deceased owner or to permit completion of sales already contracted for. If that is the case—I am not a lawyer; I am weaving my way through a very labyrinthine Bill—would it not be contrary to public policy, and would it not then be desirable that the Minister should accept some amendment to make it possible for a court order of that kind to be dealt with?

The next section I should like to look at is section 20. This is the section extending the powers of the Land Commission to provide rights-of-way. I am always very much in favour of maintaining and providing rights-of-way within the limits of equity and common justice. In Dalkey we have a constant fight to keep our rights-of-way open. On one occasion, I confess to the House, I perhaps over-reached myself. I told my children that they were entitled to go out with wire-clippers and open up wire across a certain right-of-way. I provided them with wire-clippers and they sallied forth one fine afternoon. But, unfortunately, once they got clipping that wire, they extended their clipping to certain other wires in the neighbourhood which did not come under my advice to them. I am glad to say the matter was settled. I quote it simply to say I am all in favour of maintaining and, to some extent, extending rights-of-way.

But this section as it stands raises a certain difficulty. Subsection (3) merely gives a safeguard in respect of rights-of-way and this only in relation to land adjoining an occupied dwelling house. The land adjoining a dwelling house is normally a garden or a yard next to the dwelling. It could be that the creation of public parking or a beaching area near the residence would completely spoil the residential amenities

Secondly, there seems to be no good reason why this protection should be limited to a dwelling in existence at least one year before the Land Commission serve notice. Why is it not simply limited to a dwelling in existence on the date of such notice? I am asking a question. There may be a very good answer to it, but I would like to know it. I think something should be done under this section to prevent the possibility of some householder having a car park right against his back door, completely spoiling the amenities of his house.

On section 28, which deals with Trinity College, I should simply like to thank the Minister and the Government for simplifying the procedure in this matter. It was slightly anomalous that the previous consultation was necessary, and it makes life a trifle easier for the authorities in Trinity College as well as for the Government; and that we all agree, I hope, is a good thing.

Section 35—amendment of section 32 of the Land Act, 1933—has been highly disputed and is one of the most far-reaching sections in the Bill, as I see it. It will, as it stands, hit the owners of the big houses. Now I am defending a much-attacked group, but they are children of the nation like ourselves. It will hit the owners of big houses particularly hard. Let us consider a possible case. An owner of one of these big houses, with, say, 80 or 100 rooms, which virtually none of our citizens would want to buy, wants to sell it. His only possibility, with very few exceptions, is the foreign market—some American or Britisher or Frenchman or German. If he does not sell it, it may become a derelict ruin eventually. Who will gain from that? I do not know. The Tourist Board certainly will not be happy to see an ornament, an embellishment, of our country turned into an unsightly ruin. A good deal of employment may be lost. I know some of these houses that employ ten or 12 people. What would be gained if these houses cannot be sold, and simply have to be let go into ruin? That may well arise under section 35.

I know the very good principle that underlies this section. No one wants to see the land of our country bought up on a big scale by foreigners. I stand as firm on that principle as anyone else in this House. But there are houses that probably no one else in Ireland will buy. They would be unsuitable as convents or monasteries and in many cases are unsuitable for anything but a very rich man's residence. Do we want to abandon them as we may have to under this section? I would plead with the Minister that there is a simple way out—I would ask him am I right in believing it is a way out—if he would extend the amount of land named later from five acres to 25 acres. I believe it would save some of these big houses for the reason that when a foreign buyer wants to buy one of these houses, he needs a fair amount of land as a screen around the house. He is buying privacy. If he got 25 or 30 acres around the house, he might be willing to buy, whereas he will not buy if he gets only five acres. I would ask the Minister whether there is any possibility of his favouring an amendment slightly increasing the amount of land. It will not make much difference to the people of Ireland in general if, say, the buyers of ten of these houses get an extra 20 acres, that is, 200 acres altogether. Yet, it might make the difference between a sale going through and one not going through.

There is another aspect of section 35 which will hit every landowner in the country perhaps. I am no longer referring to the owners of big houses but to people like many of us in this House. It is a fact that, as it stands, the following kinds of residence farms will be open to compulsory acquisition—an outfarm or accommodation land situated three miles from the farmhouse, a hill farm used for grazing sheep, co-operatively owned farms, farms owned by a company unless every single shareholder resides on the farm, the farm which by reason of the death of the owner is now in the legal ownership of several children, some one or more of whom do not reside there, or, lastly, any farm which has been offered for sale within the preceding year even though the person now owning the farm may not be the person who offered it for sale. Now, any one of us may be hit by this section as it stands. I want to ask the Minister whether he would exempt at least some of these types of holdings from the section; for example, an outfarm, accommodation land situated more than three miles from the farmhouse or a hill farm used for grazing sheep. I know the Minister has been strenuously through this section in the Dáil, but I would ask him once again in the calmer atmosphere of this House to modify the section.

There is another question I should like to ask on section 35. At line 46 on page 16 the section reads:

where a person other than a body corporate is the sole tenant or proprietor of the land—such person has throughout the whole of the qualifying period resided either on the land or in the immediate neighbourhood thereof.

This is very problematical for any landowner. If he goes away for a few days does he automatically risk confiscation, if I may use the word? How many months in the year can the landowner be away on special business and not risk compulsory acquisition here? There is, of course, a saving clause on the next page;

that the Lay Commissioners may at their discretion disregard, for the purposes of this section, any temporary absence or absences from the land which they are satisfied is or are reasonably attributable to illness, business, vacation or any other cause.

It may be reasonable but it is too vague. How are the owners to know? Can they get advice in advance from the Commissioners that if they go away for a certain period they will be all right? I know of one particular landowner who goes abroad for three months a year to look after estates in another continent. Does he risk compulsory acquisition under this section? I should like clarification on that point.

The second last section I refer to is section 42. This is open to the same criticisms which I made on section 35. It can apply to an outfarm, hillfarm, co-operatively owned farms, and such like. Would the Minister consider some amendments along the line suggested under section 35?

I must correct myself at this point. It is under section 45 that the question of five acres arises. It is in section 45 that there is the risk of the owners of big houses being cut off from the foreign market, and it is on Section 45 I should like to apply the arguments I made earlier, that the Minister should consider extending the area of five acres to 25 acres. What does this mean? It means that the owner of a house of, say, 50 or 80 rooms, which he cannot sell to anyone in this country, may be enabled to sell to a foreigner from Britain, Germany or France, provided there is enough land to give an adequate screen around the house. Five acres is not enough in some circumstances; 25 acres would be ample in most circumstances. This small modification might make a big difference to a few people—hundreds of thousands of pounds perhaps, but they are taxpayers like the rest of us and it is worth consideration.

In section 45 (2) (c), we have a list of relations to whom the property can be transferred or left without the written consent of the Land Commission. This is a fairly full list but there are good reasons which I shall not elaborate on now for extending the list to first cousins. We already have people in the list who are not blood relations. We have step-sons and stepdaughters. This should be extended just that one step further. I want to ask the Minister whether he could include first cousins?

That is all I have to say on the Bill at this stage. I congratulate the Minister on what is certainly a courageous Bill. Nine-tenths of it is admirable and commendable. There are a few inequities, some applying to a small section of our landowners, some to all landowners. I appeal to the Minister once more in the calmer and less partisan atmosphere here to accept some amendments which he rejected in the more turbulent passages of the Bill through the Dáil.

The Bill before the House can be described as one of the most controversial ever produced. It has met with violent opposition during the past 12 months and has been misrepresented to such a degree that many of the farmers who will gain most by it have begun to treat it with suspicion. Its aim is to give the smallholders of the west and north west of Ireland sufficient land to make their farms economic units, to enable them to live as comfortably as their urban neighbours and to bring up their families as they would wish. To achieve this aim, it is necessary to get land somewhere. It will be taken from people in the west of Ireland who may decide to leave the land, from congests who will be taken to the east and midlands of Ireland.

Because of the misrepresentations in respect of this Bill, many large farmers have got the impression that the Land Commission inspector will come like a thief in the night and relieve them of their lands. That is not the object. No matter how large his farm may be, the lands of any farmer who is prepared to work that farm properly and to make it economic will not be interfered with. It is only in the case of persons who are not prepared to work, who wish to let their lands year after year, that their lands will be interfered with. In the case of farmers who have gone to England, Scotland or America and, for reasons best known to themselves, have wished to maintain their lands in Ireland, it is only just that the Land Commission should be given sufficient power to purchase their lands.

I cannot understand why the allegations of interference with fixity of tenure, freedom of sale, and so on should be made. If we agree with the principle that lands that are not being worked properly should be given to farmers who wish to work land, surely the Land Commission should be encouraged and given sufficient powers so that they can act quickly in order to enable the smallholders to be given extra land?

I found it rather difficult to follow the reasoning of Senator L'Estrange when he spoke about the flight from the land. He agreed that there is not sufficient land in the country for all the smallholders and he told us that the people living in the west of Ireland were not prepared to be hewers of wood and drawers of water, as their grandfathers were, yet he was appalled that some of them decided to leave those small holdings and seek their fortunes elsewhere.

The flight from the land is a natural tendency which exists not only in this country but in every progressive country in western Europe. It is universal. If we were given the choice between having ten economic farms in an area in the west of Ireland or having 20 uneconomic farms, would we not choose the former? In fact, the flight from the land must be regarded as a blessing in disguise. There is, of course, a vast difference between flight from the land and decline of the rural population. For the past 30 years the policy of Fianna Fáil has been to provide those people in rural Ireland who may give up farming with jobs in industry and elsewhere.

Senator L'Estrange did not refer to the sale of land to foreigners but last week his colleague, the Fine Gael spokesman on this Bill, stood up on his perch at an after-Mass meeting to protest violently because a German was coming to buy land in Laois-Offaly and told the people of Laois-Offaly that he would see to it that no foreigner would come to that constituency. He attempted to blame the Government for the situation in which a German slipped into that constituency in recent weeks.

He did not tell the people that if he and his Party had not hindered the passage of the Land Bill during the past 12 months, the Land Commission might have had the power to buy that farm before the German did. He did not tell the people that the Land Commission, on the passage of this Bill, could step in on many occasions to prevent foreigners from buying land. With the 25 per cent duty, when this Bill is enacted, it is quite possible that many sales to foreigners will be prevented in future. Any further stipulation at this stage to prevent foreigners buying land would be a breach of the democratic principles of which we are all so proud.

I should like to refer to the position of landless men. This is a problem peculiar to Donegal. I live quite near the Lagan Valley, which contains land which is as good as the best land in Ireland. There has been a tradition there to let land to men who have no land of their own. There are hundreds of cases to be found there today where a man has 20 to 30 cattle, ten acres of potatoes, many acres under cereal crops and does not own a square foot of land. These men have proved that farming can be an economic proposition. At the local auctions they pay up to £40 an acre for land for potato production and they make it pay. As land division proceeds in the area, these men suffer. The Land Commission have not given them much consideration in recent years. I realise that there is no law against giving them land but they do not enjoy priorities and they are always told that they are at the bottom of the list.

This is a very serious problem in the area because, as more and more land is divided, the pool of land available for letting to such men is diminishing and will eventually disappear. These men have reared their families by their farming activities. Unless some consideration is given to them in future, they will be wiped out. In the case of land that is being let and has been let to persons taking land in conacre or to landless men down the years, the men who customarily took that land should be given priority. I would urge the Minister to do what he can to see that this will be done.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the question of the sale of Land Commission farms. Where a farm that has been a Land Commission farm is put up for sale steps should be taken to have it purchased by the Land Commission and given to someone else.

The principle underlying this Bill is that the best possible use should be made of the land of Ireland. Section 18 deals with shooting rights. It represents a considerable improvement. Up to now, landlords who held shooting rights could prevent people from shooting on mountains. For example, my father was reared on a mountain farm which contained one of the finest shooting mountains in Donegal, but if I were to attempt to shoot on that mountain today, I could be prevented from doing so by a foreign millionaire. Fifty years ago, when the land was returned to the tenants, the landlords retained the shooting rights and an agreement was made that 5/- would be paid for every brace shot on these mountains. Unfortunately, there was no stipulation that any bird should be shot. The result is that, down the years, there has been no shooting on these mountains. The packs have not been broken and the amount of game has gradually diminished.

Shooting and fishing are two of our most important amenities. Under this section, it will be possible for any of the owners of land to get back the shooting rights which many of them are eagerly anxious for. It is a pity that there are no facilities in respect of fishing rights. I do not think that foreign millionaries should be allowed to prevent Irishmen from fishing in Irish rivers. I do not think our forefathers fought to have a situation like that in this country today. I should like to see steps taken whereby fishery boards and boards of conservators would be given control of all the rivers of Ireland. I do not agree that people, simply because they are well off, should not alone prevent locals from availing of fishing on these rivers but spoil a most important tourist amenity.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on introducing this Bill and giving what I believe is a new deal for the west.

In approaching this Bill, we are all conscious of the many pressing problems in connection with the letting of land, of land that is badly worked, and the appalling problem of rundale congestion that prevails in many areas in the west. We know how urgent it is to step up the pace in dealing with the matter. We feel that the efforts of the Land Commission have been far too slender and that, at the present rate, it will be at least 40 to 50 years before, by attrition, the problem will be solved.

The Government land policy, as enunciated by the Minister, is a very wrong policy, one that will solve the problem of land size and land development by export to England. Senator L'Estrange wondered that there are some 4,000 holdings in Westmeath under 30 acres. The Government decree, as announced by the Minister and by the Taoiseach, is that in future no holding can be considered economic unless it is at least 40 or 50 acres. All holdings below that figure are eligible to participate in land division and to be brought up to what is laid down as a statutory limit for a viable holding. You cannot put a quart into a pint jug. The only way the Westmeath problem can be solved is that of the present 4,000 a few may be accommodated by the breaking up of larger estates, but by and large the others will be brought up by displacing their neighbours. This means if the Government policy goes unchecked, that the 4,000 farms, in the next 15 years, will be reduced to a mere 2,500 at most. If that is progress, then I do not know what the word means.

It seems as though, on the one hand, we are constantly extolling the merits of science. The Government have been quite generous in placing funds at the disposal of the Agricultural Institute and they, in their turn, have given excellent value; their investigations have shown wonderful results, have revolutionised previous standards and ideas about what was possible on Irish land. Today, we have reached the stage where we are almost in sight of one cow per acre. In Moore Park, they have reached a cow to 1.2 acres. The Agricultural Institute speak in terms of standards which ten years ago were unattainable. But the Government seem to be treating their findings with derision and suggesting that it is all nonsense.

This idea that you can build upwards on a farm, that, by intensifying it and putting in the necessary capital you can thereby increase the earning power of those on the farm almost without end, is, as I hope to show in my contribution here, a much cheaper and a more practical and a more realisable way of giving an increased standard of living to the smallholders than the holding out of mythical hopes that some day an eruption will occur in the Atlantic Ocean and another Ireland will come up to provide the land necessary to carry through the Government's land policy aimed at providing 40 to 45 acres per holding.

Straight away, I want to disarm criticism. I am not saying that 40 to 45 acres is a princely farm; in fact, it is quite a small farm. But, if worked adequately by modern standards, it is quite capable, as a family unit, of producing £40 an acre gross, with provision for future expansion or it is capable of giving a family income to the head of the family of £650 to £700 a year. That is, of course, not a princely sum by any means today. What can be attained by a smaller farm of 30 acres with more intensive capitalisation would be of the same order.

But when we speak of what is possible on the land and what constitutes a living there, we have to contrast it with similar openings and opportunities in the cities. I know it is hard to make an adequate living, even with good capital, on a 30-acre farm, but I know it is harder still to make a living and to raise a family in the city on an income of £10 or £12 a week. If I were confronted with the choice, I should not hesitate on which one to take. At least, the farm has an opportunity for further development and expansion by your own unaided efforts and it provides a means of using the help of the family in a profitable and healthy way. We have to be realistic.

I am constantly trying to lay some of those bogey terms that are bandied around—that flight from the land is happening in all progressive countries and, again, as Senator McGlinchey has put it, that flight from the land is a blessing in disguise. We have got to examine our position compared with that of other countries with a comparable flight from the land. As reported by the OEEC in their publication on general conditions of agricultural production in different countries in 1955, we find that, by European standards, we are a nation of ranchers. As given in their Table 26, when converted to an arable acre basis, we have the second largest average size holding in Western Europe. We are surpassed only by England which has an average farm size of 67 acres. We are next at 40 acres; then Denmark at 37 acres; France, the mighty France which takes up so much of the map, has an average size of 33 acres; Holland, 24 acres; Belgium, 17 acres; Germany, 20 acres; and Greece, 16 acres. Therefore, by European standards, we are very highly placed, and if other countries find it necessary to bring up their farm size by deliberate policies of removing certain of their population from the land, obviously they have a long way to go before they reach our favoured position of an average of 40 acres per holding.

We must beware of falling into the trap that because it is happening in other countries, it is perfectly reasonable that it should happen here. Again, many of those other countries like Holland and Belgium have very well-developed industrial sides. They have a scarcity of labour in industry and are trying to take people from the land, re-train and put them to work in their industries. What is our choice here? Our industrial development has a relatively difficult task. To provide for any natural increase in population that remains here is in itself a task big enough for our industry without having, in addition, the task of providing for 6,500 to 7,000 people who leave the land each year. Where do they go but to England? Therefore, our position is totally different from that of those other countries.

We find that in the 15 to 45-acre group, the group under consideration, there are 130,000 farmers at the moment on 3.6 million acres. If they are to be brought up to the declared level of 40 to 45 acres it means there is room for only 80,000; 50,000 must leave that group. If we take the lower group, those under 15 acres, 80,000 of them occupy just .7 million acres, which means there is room there for only 16,000 by Government standards; 64,000 must leave. In short, 114,000 must leave and our present number of farms of around 300,000 must be reduced to 200,000 to comply with Government land policy.

If the Government are convinced that these small holdings cannot be made economic by an injection of capital, in other words, by doing what the Agricultural Institute said is possible, if the Government do not want to take that advice it would be much more realistic for them to say, like the Swedish Government and other governments, that our 210,000 farms under 45 acres should be, by deliberate policy, reduced to a mere 96,000 and that the land should be re-arranged as speedily as possible in that pattern. I do not think the Government would go that far but that is the logical consequence of the land policy we are endorsing in this Bill today and we find that the Minister for Lands, when introducing that policy said:

The new standard for an economic holding will mean that henceforth on the division of an estate, where as many as seven or eight smallholders within a radius of one mile may have got additions in the past, now only three or four may benefit.

That is a very big departure: that where seven or eight got additions before it will be possible now to cater for only three or four. The report of the Small Farms inter-Departmental Committee of three years back points out the basic weakness of this policy. It says in paragraph 10:

A land distribution policy which gives sizeable allotments to some farmers and none to others is inevitably subject to much criticism. An increase in the size of the standard holding and an attempt to bring those who have previously benefited up to the new standard would intensify such criticism.

The land policy has been condemned very strongly indeed and, when carried to its logical conclusion, as I have worked out for you earlier, means a reduction of at least 100,000 in the number of farmers in the country. Senators need not take my word for it or my arithmetic. They can consult the April, 1963, issue of Christus Rex which is available in the Oireachtas library, in which there is a very strong editorial on this question of the new land policy and which effectively makes the same points. It makes a point that even if the whole 12 million acres were divided into 40-acre holdings that would still only cater for a farming population of 250,000. I quote:

But there is no intention of dividing on that basis. Only the small farms are to be eliminated ... in a word, the farming population would drop by over one-third.... The matter is of pre-eminent importance, not merely from the economic but from all aspects of the question. The sociologist and the politician must ask themselves what the total results of such land reform would be. If, as is possible, the ruthless implementation of a general 40-45 acre farm policy were to result in a drop of over one-third of the farm family population it is hard to see how the politician, any more than the sociologist, could be happy about the fruits of his efforts. If it is true to say that, under certain conditions, the common good is served by the expropriation and even nationalisation of private property, it is equally true that the common good demands such political sense as will avoid creating unnecessary dissatisfaction and recrimination among any considerable section of the community. For any administration to lay a native Irish Government open to being labelled "confiscator" or "exterminator" would be to pay a price which, by its undermining of confidence in the Government, would make the game far from being worth the candle. In which connection it should be noted that, in Italy, despite the fact that the agrarian reform policy there is the most far-reaching in the free world, no attempt has been made—by reason of the complexity of the problems which it would raise—to diminish the number of smallholdings in the country.

A smallholding in Italy is something much smaller than anything we have here.

Finally, I should like to refer, on the question of land policy, to an article by the Minister in the NFA Handbook of 1962 before this Bill was conceived and before the change from a 33 acre to a 40/45 acre farm was decided on. In the course of the article, which was also reproduced in the recent issue of the report of the Land Commission, which I commend everyone in this House to read, the Minister condemned the present policy far better and far more trenchantly than I could hope to do.

I quote from the NFA Handbook, 1960:

That is why I think it is of vital importance here in Ireland to publicise and emphasise the fact that a large number of Danish farmers live and prosper on units of 25 acres or under. If there is anyone so nationally perverse as to seek deliberately to reduce the number of Irish primary producers on the land an excellent course for him to pursue would be to get talking in terms of ever-increasing acreage to represent the concept of viable or economic holding. To do so may be all very well for a lucky few for a short time but certainly not for the majority of the Irish nation in town or country.

That is a strong condemnation, the strongest, I think, I have ever read. I believe the Minister, when he made that comment, was speaking from the logical position that it was impossible to increase the average allotment without displacing very large numbers from the land. That is something nobody wishes and the Government cannot get over it. The Minister cannot get away from it just by a very simple statement in his introductory speech today when he said: "At this point I must emphasise that the adoption of 40/45 acres for the family farm does not carry with it any implication of deliberately reducing the number of persons on the land." Of course it must because you cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot give 45 acre allotments without cutting down the number of allotments you can make. On this question I would commend the journal Christus Rex. In a recent issue, we have again a very fine article on this question. This is something we should read and grasp before the present policy gets so far under way that it cannot be revised.

Another important facet of this problem is the numbers we have on the land. While we hear the appalling argument that it is happening everywhere and that, therefore, we are "progressive" by having a two per cent decline in our agricultural workers' force every year, the speakers omit to tell us that we have the lowest number of men working per thousand acres than anywhere else in Europe. Surely that is the kernel of the situation.

I again want to refer to the figures given in the OECD publication. These figures relate to 1956. They would probably need to be reduced by about 20 per cent for changes since then. The figures for comparable purposes are quite usable and they show that in the number of males working per thousand acres, we had 36, at that time, the lowest in Europe. The comparable figures are: Belgium, 80; Denmark, 52; France, 52; Germany, 72; Greece, 148; Ireland, 36; Italy, 132; Netherlands, 88; Norway, 96; Sweden, 40; Switzerland, 112; United Kingdom, 32.

The United Kingdom is the only country on the same level as we are. Can anyone show how in reason we can expect to get from 1,000 acres of Irish land produce comparable with what they get from 1,000 acres of Danish or Dutch land without having the same comparable ingredients of labour and capital. We know that per 1,000 acres we have less capital invested than they have so common-sense would say that we should try to make up for having less capital by having more labour. The two are complementary. How can we have less capital and considerably less labour and yet expect to approach anything like the standards of production achieved in other countries?

These figures, to my mind, are the only figures that make sense in drawing a comparison with West European countries. We have less than half the labour force per 1,000 acres they have in Holland and we have considerably less than any other country in Western Europe.

The question then arises of how many we have working on the land, whether we can recruit more, or must we accept the fatalistic attitude expressed in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion which says that we are to stand by and let another 65,000 leave the land in this decade.

We should examine the significance of all that has happened. The significance, as far as I can make out, is that the number of people working on the land has dropped from 481.000 in 1949 to 350,000 today. It is officially estimated to be down to 310,000 in 1970. This means, in 20 years "progress", we will have reduced the number on the land by one-third. The picture is worse than that because you might say that in dropping down to 310,000, we might expect to level off somewhere below that, at perhaps 250,000 or some such figure. When one studies carefully the picture of what has happened since the war, one finds there have been about 8,000 male deaths a year in the farming community. That is a rough figure but I believe it is a fairly reasonable one. The recruitment in the 14-18 year old group has been about 6,000 and there has been a net loss of 6,500, which means that there must be a flight from the land of about 4,500 a year. If you recruit 6,000 and 4,500 leave, it means the net recruitment is only 1,500.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7.15 p.m.

Before the tea-break, I was endeavouring to see what is the actual recruitment into agriculture, to find out how many we have to cater for in land division in the future. I take the figures from the tables as given and I argued that the net recruitment into agriculture is only about 1,500 a year. You might quarrel with some of my figures and say that the deaths are even higher than the figure I gave of 8,000 men but it is certainly safe to say deaths are not greater than 9,000 men a year in the farming community. That leaves, on allowing for the decrease in numbers, a net recruitment of 2,500 to provide the future farmers. If you take an average life span of 50 years, to multiply 50 by 2,500 is a simple sum and works out at under 150,000. The flight must continue from our present number, 350,000, by official planning, to be down to 310,000 by 1970, to continue to slide down eventually to half that number—150,000.

Does anybody look at such a figure without taking alarm as 150,000 on the land of Ireland? By that time the pampas of the Argentine will be densely populated compared with Ireland. Unless some drastic steps are taken to improve recruitment into agriculture, that is what will happen. It will not matter then what the size of the family farm is because even with 40 to 45 acres, as proposed in Government policy, we shall find after another ten or 15 years that there will not be sufficient men to man even farms of that size. That is something that can and should be improved, and I ask the Minister to see to it that the Government take those figures seriously and answer the question for themselves. If they dispute my figure, that the net recruitment into agriculture is under 2,500 a year, I should be very interested to see what figure the Government arrive at.

We are reaching the stage in scientific planning where we must have facts and figures to guide us. We have also reached the happy position, with the advent of the electronic computer, when we can process figures much more speedily than was possible in the past. Where in the past we often had to wait two or three years before we got the results of a survey, which when they came, were often too late to allow for effective action, now with modern processing it should be possible to get those figures within two or three months after the survey has been taken. I know that the Government are contemplating installing a computer adequate to do that type of work in the Statistics Division so that we should then make a much more scientific approach to Government land policy and base it solely on facts. We want to know precisely what is the strength of our present labour force on the land. The figure that the Garda give as a result of their census in June of each year was 350,000 at the last census.

Now, I think that is a very inflated figure, because no standard is laid down as to what constitutes a worker on the land. A farmer aged 75 years who is still on the land is counted as a worker on the land. So are incapacitated or delicate relatives. All are counted as agricultural workers. That does not happen in the statistics of comparable countries in Europe where such people are not counted. So the position is even worse than is shown in the table from which I quoted, and that showed that we have less than half the man-power that is available per 1,000 acres in competitor countries.

The Government should get the Statistics Office to make a survey, as a matter of urgency, and let us see what the picture really is. That survey should also show the age distribution of the population. We got a rather serious awakening about two years ago when we saw from the population statistics that our national population was very depleted in its main production group. We have many people in the older age group, and in the younger age group, but the main productive group from 25 to 50 or 60 years of age, is greatly depleted as a result of emigration. If a similar survey were taken in agriculture, I believe we would find that emigration has dealt even more severely with the main productive group in agriculture, and it will be even more depleted in the next ten or 15 years, especially in the 30 to 40 years age group who should carry our agriculture forward in a dynamic way. We can theorise about this for hours, but we need the facts urgently, and the Government can get them if they only look for them. Facts are the basis of any modern approach to scientific planning, and nowhere is that more needed than in the Government's land policy.

However, we cannot say that we do not approve of the Government's policy without saying what is the alternative. I have shown that to give the standard acreage proposed by the Government would inevitably lead to a drastic reduction in the numbers on the land— a reduction of at least one-third or the extermination of 100,000 farms. No one wants to face that appalling fact, least of all the Government, who appear to be satisfied to help a few fortunate ones and leave the vast majority to live on promises. On the other hand, if within a ten or 15 year period, we want to ensure that all entitled to a viable farm get one then 100,000 people must be induced to leave the land of Ireland.

I want to say that this extermination is as unnecessary as it is naturally suicidal. The Government's objective to create family farms and to give to the farm family a standard of living, and an income comparable with that of the workers in the cities can be achieved by a more practical method since it is possible to develop agriculture in two ways. The first is upwards by means of capital, and the second is outward by means of acreage. I hope to show with a few figures that it is not only practical to develop it upwards but that it is also much less costly than to develop it outwards as is proposed by the Government, through increasing acreages to the 40-45 acre level.

We have to face the problem of the 80,000 holdings that have not been improved since 1923 by direct action of the Land Commission. These should be treated as a first priority now and the holders should get whatever land the Land Commission will be able to acquire under this Bill when it becomes law. Because of the fragmentation of these holdings one cannot even get a base upon which to build upwards unless one can consolidate the holdings and increase them in size to whatever extent is possible in the particular localities. I doubt if in any locality it will be possible, or even proper, to bring the holdings to the level suggested. Where the Land Commission can get sufficient land to bring six up to the 33-acre stage, it is better to do that than to neglect three and hope that they will take the hint and clear out to England, thereby enabling the Land Commission to bring the other three up to 40 or 45 acres.

I want now to deal with a most important document, a document which should have been used far more extensively by the Government in its planning. I refer to the National Farm Survey conducted in 1955-1956. Its lessons have not been learned by the Government. They have been learned, and not only learned but proved again and again by the Agricultural Institute and all those connected with scientific farming, but the Government apparently still refuse to be convinced. In the National Farm Survey there is the group 15-30 acres; their average is 24; the next group from 30-50 acres has an average of 37. Each group is divided into three categories — the average, the bad and the good. If we take an average family with 24 acres, their family income in 1956—it would be adjusted somewhat now, of course, with probably a 15 per cent increase— was just over £5 per week, or £281. If we transfer that average family to an average holding in the 30-50 acre category, its family income would be increased by approximately 50 per cent to £400. With regard to the cost of achieving this, we have, first of all, to buy the land and then to equip it. Equipment works out at something like £260. The alternative to that would be to lift the family from an average performance with average capital up to the good category on the same farm by injecting more capital; the income would go up from £281 then to £440. The capital increase is the same in both. The additional capital needed to bring the small holding up to a level and the capital to take over the extra 12 to 14 acres to increase the farm at the average capital level is the same. The same end result is achieved. The family income is boosted around 50 per cent, but the big difference between the two schemes is that one needs the provision of land, which we have not got in adequate supply, because one has to purchase an additional 13 acres to go from the middle of the 15-30 acre group up to the middle of the second, the 30-50 acre group.

What is the cost of 13 acres of average land today? At least £150 an acre. That represents additional capital of £2,000. Economically, that is an overwhelming difference between the two schemes. Further, if the State provides this additional £2,000 capital, does it expect a man with an income of £400 a year, or £8 per week to make any contribution towards paying back the capital? Of course not. The expectation of the Government that those from the non-congested districts, who will be transferred, will foot the whole bill in relation to the capital involved is just plain nonsense. They will be transferred to a 40 acre farm, but without any of the necessary capital provision to enable them to farm that on a very intensive scale. At most their income will be £600 per year.

How will a man with £600 a year save the money to meet the capital and interest involved in the cost of a 40 acre farm, costing anything up to £10,000, including stocking? The Government will just have to foot the whole bill. From every aspect, therefore, the only solution is to build up on existing farms. Building up has the advantage that it can be done quite rapidly and it can be done immediately. There is no need for rosy promises to the vast majority as to what they will get when they take their place in the queue for 40 acre farms. The capital for intensification of existing small farms can be made available immediately and the work of planning and development can be put in hands immediately and on a nationwide scale.

There is one other point I want to emphasise. The outstanding development that has occurred in the west in the past five years has been the emergence of that outstanding figure, Father McDyer, who is prepared to call a spade a spade and who is prepared to shout when he is being strangled by red tape. He and his group who are rallying to save the west are realists. Their ten point plan which was published in today's paper—and I hope that most Senators have read it—is sound and practicable and will save the West. They are not calling for another Ireland suddenly to come up out of the Atlantic to provide additional land. They are calling for the intensification of existing farms together with attention to the rundale problem as a first priority. That is realism and is based on the facts of the situation.

What we have been missing in the struggle for small farms has been a natural leader, a man who will get the country behind him. Now we have two such figures, Father McDyer, and Father Browne, the Chairman of Muintir na Tíre. Those have the idealism, courage and personality essential for the success of any development to save the west and the small farms. Perhaps some Senators may have had the opportunity of seeing a television interview last week on this very same problem when Peadar O'Donnell was opposed to Mr. Norton of the Irish Independent and of seeing how the courage and realism of Peadar O'Donnell swamped the other man in that debate. He had his feet on the ground and knew what could be done. He was not daunted by the question: “Can you rear a family on 25 acres,” because he turned it to a realistic comparison with how a family could be reared in the city on £10 a week. When he took from £10 the many items available free on the farm, he concluded that there was very little left to feed the family. The sum of £10 a week is a fixed quantity for families living in this city but the small farm carries within itself the ability to expand under its own efforts by the use of capital. It has been proved by agricultural economists again and again that for every £2 of capital expended on a farm the family income increases by £1. That is the equation that runs through the farm survey and it has been established time and again.

The sum of £1,000 additional capital expended on a farm gives an increase in the family income of £500 provided of course the expertise that is necessary to make a success of the additional capital is added. That is why we have an agricultural advisory service and they are only too keen to help. The only fault really in the plan to save the west is point No. 1 which calls for adequate capital for the development of small farms to be made available on the basis of a 50 per cent grant and a 50 per cent loan to any small farmer who indicates that he is prepared to pursue a farm plan drawn up for him in conjunction with the advisory services. I do not think that those concerned with this yet realise their rights in this matter. The suggestion of a 50 per cent grant savours of a certain amount of a handout and against which there is a certain natural reluctance saying that we cannot afford it.

I want to give a few figures that show that the small farmers concerned have a right to capital, not as a handout from the State but as a natural right, in the same way as money is being given to industrialists today.

Many of these matters do not come within the scope of this Bill.

I am trying to get the Government to see that the policy that is going to be implemented here by order on the size of the small farm and their not considering any lesser size is one that is economically and sociologically wrong. The greatest obstacle which the Government and many others see to Fr. McDyer's plan is the provision of capital. There are a few simple equations which show where the capital comes from. The equations I have are very simple. I will work in units of 100. An addition of £130 capital to a farm should increase the gross output by £100, £60 of which should remain with the farmer for his own family spending. In addition this additional £100 has been created, dug up as it were, out of the ground. It was not there before.

That starts to circulate in the economy and it is passed around. It goes to pay bills, to pay workers who produce certain of the fertilisers and other requirements of the farm and when it is totted up in the national income the resulting increase is approximately £160. Then the tax laws work on the money at all stages; the tax on the pint, and on the petrol, turnover tax and every other type of tax, will get back roughly one quarter of the net increase. In other words about £40 finds its way back into the Exchequer. That £40 is in the Exchequer because of the £130 capital that was put in initially. Is it not a simple and reasonable proposition to ask that the farm enterprise should be free from making any increased contribution to taxation yield for a certain number of years?

We must now come back to the Bill.

I have established the point. The farm enterprise will produce in three years sufficient money to recoup the amount of additional capital required. If certain reservations are made to the effect that a certain amount might be needed for subsidies on some of the increased production, it would be found that after eight or ten years the capital would be recouped.

The Senator is going far beyond the scope of the Bill.

I have made my point that in justice such people are entitled to this tax exemption. It is not a handout or a grant but merely exemption from taxation.

It does not arise on the Bill.

The Minister, in considering whether to modify the size of allotments and to reverse his decision to include people who already have had improvements done, must have regard to the cogent views given by the Agricultural Institute. Today I saw a most interesting view on all this in the Roscommon Herald. The Minister can read there of the excellent work done by Dr. Attwood who shows that the Government target of 40 acres is not necessary, that on 25 acres a £1,500 family income can be achieved, provided the necessary capital is put in.

This will ensure that we will not witness in the next two decades a further exodus of our rural population destined for Birmingham or Coventry. That is the only way we can keep our true values, our national independence and spirit in our country. This, of course, would call for an imaginative approach from the Government, an approach akin to the Land Project in 1948. I have calculated the problem —and the figures are available to the Minister and his advisers—to prove that to double the income of the farmers in the 15 to 30 acres group to give them an income of more than £10 a week, would require £62 million capital. To do the same for the group between 30 and 50 acres, bringing their income up to £800, would require £48 million capital—£110 million in all. That is not a frightening——

It should be clear to the Senator that this discussion should take place before another Minister. The Minister for Lands is responsible for this Bill, not the Minister for Agriculture.

I am quarrelling with the Minister's insistence on the way he proposes to improve matters by bringing the acreage up to 40 or 45. As I have already said, the Minister himself has provided what I find the most courageous, the most outspoken and most balanced condemnation of that policy in his excellent article in The National Farmers' Year Book in 1960 and in the Land Commission Report of 1961. I do not see why the Minister should have changed his thinking since and I am at a complete loss to see why his wonderful policy of intensification in 1962 should appear before us today as a policy which plans the extermination of the small farmer.

So much has been said since the Bill was first introduced that it is difficult for anyone to say anything new or original but I want to assure the Minister that any criticism I have to offer will be of a constructive and helpful nature. First of all, I think it is a courageous Bill. Some people think it goes too far, others think it does not go far enough. Many Bills have been introduced and put into operation since the foundation of this State and it was only after they had been put into operation that their weaknesses and deficiencies became apparent.

I imagine that when this Bill is put into operation certain flaws and weaknesses will be revealed also. As a Land Bill, it is of great importance and of paramount interest to almost every section of the community because we are a very land-conscious people. Therefore, we all have different views on what a land Bill should be like, of how land should be allocated and of what goes to make an economic holding.

I was amazed to hear Senator Quinlan being critical of this Bill because of its definition of 40 or 45 statute acres as an economic holding. I do not expect he will get many to agree with the theory that 40 to 45 acres is too big or too ambitious. I come from a county where I believe we have the best land in Ireland, where the Land Commission have been very active since the early thirties. Quite an amount of land has been divided and many new holdings have been allocated. I think I could reasonably describe the parish from which I come as one of the most cosmopolitan in Ireland because we have people from almost every county settled there, as we have in adjacent parishes.

This gives me an opportunity of correcting an impression that has been created by Deputies from certain areas that migrants to County Meath are not welcome, that there is a certain animosity and illwill towards them. I wish to assure the Minister and the Land Commission that nothing could be further from the truth and I hope that those Deputies who make such insinuations will realise that what I am saying is true. If they doubt it they can go and interview the people there.

It is true there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction and it is understandable that if a farm is taken up in a certain area, many people will be hopeful of getting a holding of land there. Eventually, the estate is divided and they find their hopes are dashed. Naturally, they feel aggrieved. Those of us on local authorities know that when we have only one labourer's cottage to allocate and there are two or three applicants, only one applicant can be successful. Naturally, the unsuccessful ones feel a certain amount of resentment and frustration. That is only human. But it ends at that.

Those people who come into Meath will be the first to admit that the people of Meath are not getting a fair deal when land is being allocated. It appears to me that all Land Acts are designed and operated for the relief of congestion and that the people from the congested districts have a first claim when the Land Commission acquire land. In this Bill the Minister designates certain areas as congested districts. I presume the people from those districts will have first claim on land in areas where it can be acquired. In every county there are certain areas that could be described as congested districts. In the very parish I come from, there are congested districts at the moment. Those congested districts were created by the activities of the Land Commission in the 1930's and 1940's when they felt that a holding of 20 acres—and, in one case, 16 acres—was an economic holding. I am glad the Minister and the Land Commission have got away from that idea. That refutes Senator Quinlan's argument that a 40 to 45 acre farm is too big.

In regard to migrants, we have insinuations that the local people are hostile towards them. Do the people who make these insinuations ever take the trouble to interview those people brought into Meath to find out how they are getting on and how they are being treated, not by the local people, but by the very people who brought them there, the Land Commission? What are the roads like that have been made by the Land Commission for those people? Are they good roads? I can tell the House that they are not. What are their water supplies like? Were the houses finished before those people were moved into them? I can assure the Minister that these people would welcome Deputies into their homes to show them the condition of the places into which they were brought by the Land Commission.

Since 1962, 15 families were brought into my area, eight from Galway and seven from Mayo. In one estate, seven or eight pumps were sunk, one for each holder. The people were moved in at the end of March or early April to find an artesian well sunk in the yard with a steel liner sticking up out of it and a block down in it. That was the water supply for each of them. After many weeks, pumps were eventually secured and put down. They could not use the water from some of the pumps, and that is the position still, in spite of repeated appeals by those people and by public representatives to the Land Commission.

When those people came to Meath, they left homes which had been connected to the rural electrification scheme. They brought with them all sorts of electrical appliances, radios and irons. They found their new houses wired but not connected to the ESB supply. They had to wait months and months before they were. I can assure the House that I can stand over everything I am saying. All this happened within 15 miles, as the crow flies, of where I am standing. If the people who make insinuations about the local people would deal with these matters, they would be doing a much better job than criticising the Meath people in the way they have been doing. I can instance another case of two families brought to Meath from the Minister's county in 1953. In 1964, 11 years afterwards, there was an artesian plant trying to provide water for them.

I come now to roads. The Land Commission appear to have a mania for providing roads in every estate they divide. Usually, they take a piece of the sod off a half-mile of ground and scatter a piece of sand on it. They build two or three houses at the end, and that is the road. We have in this House the chairman of Meath County Council. In Meath, we have had to take over every road and cul-de-sac made by the Land Commission since the early 30's as public roads and to roll and tar them up to every house-holder's door. It was the Meath County Council and the taxpayers of Meath, of which these migrants are part, who provided the roads those people now enjoy instead of the lane-ways they had to endure for many years before the county council took them over.

I come now to fencing. When the Land Commission divided a farm, they used to have a type of fencing which was severely criticised because it was costly, in that it utilised quite a lot of the land. There was a big bank, a ditch each side and quicks put in each side of it. At least it had a certain amount of permanency. But the new idea is cement posts and barbed wire. I wonder what legal standing has a fence of that kind? That is the modern mearing which the Land Commission are providing. It is not really a permanent fence and it is the type of thing that eventually could lead to bad relations among neighbours. I should like to ask the Land Commission to examine that aspect of land division and try to provide something more permanent than the fence provided at the moment.

There is another aspect which is by way of coincidence but which I made sure to verify before speaking. That is, the Land Commission take a family from the congested districts and bring them into the midlands. These people are precluded from getting the full Local Government reconstruction grant. I was amazed to come across such a problem recently. I have been informed in the Department of Local Government that a grant had already been allocated in this case. This particular man moved into the County Meath in 1953. He is only 11 or 12 years in the county and, because he is not 15 years in this house, he does not qualify for the full grant. In this particular case he gets a special grant by which he is enabled to add rooms to his house at an estimated cost of something in the region of £600. He can only get £100 from the Department of Local Government instead of £140. That man is being deprived of £40 from the Department of Local Government. He is being deprived of the supplementary grant of £40 from the Meath County Council, which means in effect that this man is being deprived of £80 in grants to which I believe he is entitled.

I believe every one of those people is entitled to the full 100 per cent grant, and not a compassionate or special grant because the Land Commission have provided the house for them. These people leave good homes and give up holdings in the west of Ireland and move into County Meath. If they had remained in their own county they would get the 100 per cent grant. I would ask the Minister to consider this because I think it is unfair that these people should be deprived of that to which they are entitled. It is militating against a man who is trying to improve his home.

Having been so critical of the Land Commission, I should now like to throw in a favourable word. I should like to congratulate the Minister and the Land Commission on the new type of house that is being provided by the Land Commission for the tenants. It is an excellent house and now that water, sewerage and other services are being provided, it is really something of which the Land Commission can be very proud.

With regard to the Bill, there is much that can be said for and against it. By and large, I regard it as a good Bill. There is one section to which I take serious exception. In fact, I think it is not even constitutional and, if so, it is one of the worst forms of discrimination that could possibly be put into any Bill. In regard to section 7, I have followed the debate in the Dáil and I know the Minister has an answer. To my mind the answer is not as logical as the Minister might think it is.

Section 7 in effect means that if a local person gets a piece of land when an estate is being divided he has to pay the full annuity. In the early days the Land Commission in my county did a very good job in regard to land division in giving accommodation plots to cottiers. At that stage they were giving an average of 5½ to 6 statute acres to each cottier and that was very much appreciated by those cottage tenants in those days. It was availed of by them to enable them to keep a cow and a couple of calves. Recently there has been a trend on which the Land Commission can be criticised. Now they give a kind of sop to the cottier; they give them 2½ to 3 or 4 statute acres.

Again, under section 7 any cottier or any local person who gets a piece of land from the Land Commission has to pay the full annuity. I think it should be considered in this way. Everybody in this country had to play his part in the Economic War. As a result of the ending of the Economic War the land annuities were halved. I feel those people in Meath, or in any other county in the Midlands where land is being divided, whether local or otherwise, are entitled to the fruits of that victory. They are entitled to have their land at the half annuity. If it were permissible, as in the past, for the foreigner to come in and buy up the land, even if it could be argued he bought it with his own cheque, they would have the land at the half annuity. They were not here when the Economic War was on. I think it is wrong that this section should militate against a local person getting a holding of land.

The Minister may say there is no problem with regard to the migrants who were brought to Meath in the early days. They got an uneconomic holding of 20 to 25 acres of land. Now they are looking forward hopefully to this Bill to provide them with the extra bit of land which will bring their holding up to what they regard as an economic holding of approximately 40 acres. But if they get extra land in their locality they will be designated as locals and will have to pay the full annuity as well as the cottier. That is altogether unfair and if anything can be thought up to create animosity and bitterness among people coming into the county and local people in the county who might get land, that type of discrimination would be more conducive to it than anything else. I would appeal to the Minister, in view of all that is concerned in this particular section, to have another look at it and, if possible, withdraw it. This section should be amended. I make that appeal to the Minister with all the sincerity at my command because I feel it is completely unjustified.

The Minister, speaking on this section in the Dáil, said he had received a deputation from some county who told him they did not mind paying the full annuity. They were paying £20 or £25 an acre for land on the 11-month system. That argument may be all right in 1964 or 1965. Let us hope it will be worth even more today but it could always get back to the value of the thirties, when very few people were in a position to pay anything like £20 or £25 an acre for land. Always remember that when a man takes land in conacre or on the 11-months system he does so because it is an economic proposition. He is not tied to the land forever. Remember also that he is taking an Irish acre of land, which is very much bigger than the Land Commission's statute acre. Land taken on the eleven months system is measured in Irish acres and to the fence, not out to the middle of the road, which is the method adopted by the Land Commission. One of the smallest measurements of land is the Land Commission's statute acre. I am sure the Minister will agree with me in that.

I would appeal to the Minister to examine that aspect of the matter to which I have referred, that posterity is being condemned to pay a full annuity whereas the neighbour who is brought in and who gets twice as much land has to pay only the halved annuity. This is the one section of the Bill that prevents me from describing it as a good Bill.

Another section which I welcome is section 45. I was very proud and happy that in the early stages of this Bill, I happened to be one of a committee that designed an amendment the Labour Party moved in the Dáil, which would not be accepted at that time and which now turns out to be section 45. It is the section which ensures that the land of this country will not pass out of the hands of our own people. It means that more land will be made available for the Land Commission so that they can continue to resettle our own people on economic holdings.

I agree that there are drastic powers contained in this Bill but I am conscious of the fact that drastic powers are required if the Land Commission are to be enabled to get the land which they require for the resettlement of our people. I am also conscious of the fact that drastic powers are required by the Land Commission if people are to be prevented from using subterfuges of one kind or another to prevent the Land Commission from getting land.

I should like to refer to the position of stud farms. This can be a very thorny question. There are many stud farms which are being worked and utilised as stud farms should be but there are certain farms that are not stud farms but which merely have a notice on the gate to the effect that it is such and such a stud farm. One would get a shock if one were to examine the bloodstock on the farm. This kind of subterfuge is being used to prevent the Land Commission from taking over that type of farm which is not being utilised as it should be. The farm may be a glorified ranch but the subterfuge of calling it a stud farm is resorted to.

Have the horses cloven feet?

I do not think they even have horses. I am not referring to those who have horses. This matter should be examined. I have in mind a case in connection with which I had some correspondence with the Land Commission. There should be some form of registration or specified standards where stud farms are concerned. The subterfuge to which I have referred is one that can be used to defeat this Bill.

During the emergency, a farm of 20 acres on which there were six to ten cows, which was producing milk, had to be registered as a dairy farm and had to conform to certain standards and was not exempt from tillage quotas. The stud farm was exempt from quota regulations. I know there will be difficulties but I would suggest that the Minister examine this matter and ensure that a farm will not be called a stud farm for the purpose of defeating the Bill. In the case of a stud farm the Land Commission cannot enter on the land.

When I heard Senator Fitzgerald talking about migrants coming to Meath, my mind went back to the time when I was Minister for Lands when, not alone were migrants not welcomed, but there was a boycott by the workers, in which Deputies of his Party took part, and we could not get anyone but gangers to divide the land. We had to recruit gangers and put them under police protection until we got the land divided. The Chair will have to forgive me if I go back to these things. I happened to be there at the time as Minister.

The Senator is quite right.

They are very welcome now, of course, but the fact is that they were not welcome then.

I am talking about the present, not about the past. People are too fond of talking about the past.

I am harking back to the time when migrants first came there.

The migrants got strong.

Of course, and they all have votes. I was listening to Senator L'Estrange talking about the way the Fianna Fáil cumainn worked. Of course, he is a young man.

Indeed he is because any member of the Fine Gael Party who remembers the beginning of the Land Commission in the twenties and thirties would have a great nerve to talk in that way. I knew cases where they gave valuable land to wealthy people. When I was made Minister for Lands, I said to the President of the Executive Council, as he was then called: "For God's sake, do not ask me to take that Department. It stinks in the nostrils of the people in the west". I shall not mention names. Senator Killilea and I were in the Dáil at the time and pointed out scandalous cases showing the way the thing was done. The Senator should go a bit further back the next time.

The Senator is living too much in the past.

Whoever else may talk, the Fine Gael people cannot. I was Minister for Lands and I had my views about what constituted an economic holding and I fought as much as I could for at least 30 acres of arable land or its equivalent. Unfortunately, there was a Committee of the Government set up and I was overruled. There happened to be a great old friend of mine who suggested a £10 valuation as regards Mayo. Mayo was a poor county. I had to accept 25 acres of arable land or its equivalent.

Of course, that was in the thirties and there was a depression all over the world and farmers had to be satisfied with far less than would satisfy them now. There was no welfare State in Britain. There were millions of people idle, both in the United States and in Britain, and, of course, they had to be content with what they got. They were fairly content even with the 25 acres but if I had had my way, it would have been 30 acres then. Even with a 45 acre farm, it will take the farmer all his time to get the standard of living the ordinary people get in industry.

The fact of the matter is that farmers would not be on the land if they had to depend entirely on their land. We all know that young people on the farm go away to the towns or wherever they can get employment and send money back to those remaining on the farm to keep them on the land. The reason for derelict holdings is that, because of the affluent state of Britain today, even the elderly people who formerly remained on the farms and had money sent to them by their children have gone over, too. That is what is causing derelict farms and not Fianna Fáil policy—and nobody knows that better than Senator L'Estrange.

I must congratulate the Minister. This is the best Land Bill that has ever been introduced. There is nobody in the country better acquainted with the problems of the west than the Minister for Lands. He knows more, as a Deputy and as a practising solicitor, about what is happening in the congested areas than most people. There are splendid provisions in this Bill.

Consider section 5 which advances money to industrious farmers to enable them to go somewhere else and to sell their land to the Land Commission. I hope that splendid idea will be availed of. I feel sure it will.

Another great idea concerns the giving of a pension to incapacitated persons. I understand that before that can be implemented a Social Welfare Bill will have to be introduced. It is a splendid idea and something new.

The best section in my opinion is the one which has been condemned so flatly by Senator Fitzgerald, section 7. I know of at least a dozen holdings in the constituency I once represented which were lost because of the price that had to be paid since the 1950 Act was passed. I refer to the provision requiring that the full market value for land be paid. That had to be paid and then the amount of money that had to be spent on improvements, dividing the land, maybe reseeding it, and so on, was so much that when the Land Commission got the report from the inspector, all they could say was: "Well, we can relieve maybe three or four farmers by having this land but the cost would be out of all proportion to the benefit to be derived." The result is that I know of at least 12 cases in the constituency I once represented where such land was bought by bigger farmers or shopkeepers. This means that it is in respect of the added portion, not of the whole farm but of the added portion, that they will pay the full annuity. I am vain enough to think that my advocacy in this connection had some effect. The Minister has not done a better thing than his introduction of section 7. He said in the Dáil that by paying the full annuity they are paying only a fraction of what they would have to pay—and that is only in respect of the added portion. It is the very best section in the Bill, in my opinion.

There was a row about section 12. All the Minister is doing there is applying to the whole of the land the same principle that applies to others, namely, that the Land Commission consent must be obtained for sub-division of these lands. As the Minister said in his opening speech, if that were not insisted on, we might again have subdivisions and the creation of uneconomic holdings.

From my experience, I know that people will do that illegally but it will not have legal effect. We had this experience when we brought people especially from Donegal to other parts of the country. They immediately divided the land again. I know very well that they did it and that, no matter what we do, it will be one of the effects but it will not be legal. That is especially so with people who derive their livelihood by migrating to Scotland for certain seasons and who then come back to their small holdings. They say, for instance, that they will divide it between their two sons and that they do not care what the Land Commission will say.

There is no such thing as interfering with free sale. That is all nonsense and the people who said it knew very well that that was so.

We had a lot of talk on section 13. At one time, I knew a lot about all this. As far as I remember, once the Land Commission entered on land there was always rumour and nobody else could buy or interfere with it until they had made their decision. Then there is talk about the political head of the Department—the Minister —ordering people to snoop around. How are we to find out what lands are available and what derelict holdings exist unless they receive a direction? The Land Commission still has the right to decide whether these lands will be acquired. The Minister is getting his inspectors to make a survey of the position and to present the facts to the Land Commission who will decide whether action will be taken.

I had to laugh when I heard Senator L'Estrange talk about Fianna Fáil. Were it not that I did not want to go too far with it, I could have had one of the inspectors sacked. He did the very reverse of what the Senator suggested. He actually told them to go to Boland and that he would ensure that they would get the land—and he did not put the name of one of those people on his list—and then Boland had to go and face them.

That is an old trick. It is played on both sides.

Any Minister who would have anything to do with the division of land ought to have his head examined: he would be a madman. In Roscommon, there was a 200 acre farm for division, one time. I was asked to meet some of the people about this estate. Harrison Hall was full. A very wealthy man in the town was present and I said to him: "Is it possible that you want land, too?" He said: "Yes, if I can get it for nothing."

Section 6 of the 1933 Act specified three things which the Minister may not do or interfere with—(1) to say whose land is to be taken; (2) to say who is to get the land and (3) to say what price is to be paid for it. These are excepted subjects, and rightly so. Through the Land Commission, the Minister may recommend that a certain thing be done but they will do what they think best.

I congratulate the Minister on the production of this Bill. It is a splendid measure. I am quite sure that when the regulations are made in consultation with the Minister for Finance this Bill will prove to be one of the best measures ever brought before this House.

This Bill has generally been complained of throughout the country and the more it is understood the more it is likely to find itself in public disfavour. I believe the remedy it prescribes is worse than the disease itself. The bad sections outweigh the good ones. There are some sections which we very much welcome and on which I should like to compliment the Minister.

Section 4 of the Bill refers to congested districts and under the Bill the Minister has power to declare any area a congested district. In this regard the Bill should refer to the country as a whole and not just to particular areas the Minister may be prevailed upon to declare as congested districts. There are pockets of congestion in every county in Ireland and the Second Schedule refers only to Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, parts of Clare and four districts of West Cork. In County Laois, for example, which is not scheduled as a congested district, there are 8,278 farms and only 3,026 of these farms are over £20 valuation, where the average valuation runs at £1 per acre. Therefore, 5,252 farms are of less than £20 valuation. When we remember that very many of these holdings have been developed over the years by the industry of the farmers concerned, the Bill, and especially some of these sections, should apply to the country as a whole.

Section 6 is something new and a welcome departure. However, the Minister did invite questions and I should like to ask him in relation to this section, where a farmer gets an annuity of, say, £156 in 1965, can this man have this annuity reviewed and perhaps increased as the purchasing power of the £ diminishes. This is particularly important in the case where the farmer is a blind or disabled person and not necessarily an old person. If a blind farmer of 30 or 40 years of age avails of this section and accepts an annuity, is there provision in this Bill whereby he can have the annuity reviewed as the years go on. For a man who would normally expect a life span of 20 or 30 years more, it would be very unfair if he were tied down to £3 a week for the rest of his life, irrespective of how the cost of living rose over the years.

Section 7 has been mentioned here and in this connection, I must disagree with Senator Boland. Subsection (1) provides:

Whenever a payment to which this section applies becomes due to the Land Commission, such payment shall, notwithstanding anything contained in Part III of the Land Act, 1933, or in section 42 of the Land Act, 1939, be payable in full by the person or persons liable from time to time to make such payment.

Senator Fitzgerald dealt with this section and I am completely in agreement with him. However, I should like to know whether, in cases where farmers swop land, they will have to pay the increased annuities on the portion they get. The farmers of Ireland endured a great deal of suffering and hardship and were granted the halved annuities as compensation. It is most unfair now after 30 years to impose this extra burden on them. Perhaps the Minister would look at this section again and, in view of the principle involved, consider amending it.

Section 10 is another case where the Government appear to be passing the "buck", and there is altogether too much of that in this country. This section exempts the Minister for Lands and the Land Commission from certain obligations and will impose extra burdens on the county councils and eventually on the ratepayers. The Department of Lands and the Forestry Division, especially, are very slow to make any contribution in cases where local residents and landowners avail of rural improvement scheme grants but they are not slow to use the lanes and roadways when they are reconstructed and repaired.

I find, too, when I am asked to help out with people who have drainage problems on land, perhaps bordering canals owned by CIE and where a couple of Departments of State are involved, it is almost impossible to make headway. The Department of Lands should be made to carry out their obligations in this regard. They should be made to repair these roads. The old Land Commission roadways leading up to many houses are never in a satisfactory state of repair. The Land Commission should at least bring them to a proper state of repair and then ask the local councils to take them over and not just abandon them altogether.

Section 11 exempts the Land Commission from liability for certain rates. Where the Land Commission freeze a holding under section 13, would the Minister consider including in section 11 a subsection with a similar provision which would apply to the farmer whose holding has been so frozen for a period. It would be a great hardship on people who want to sell their property if the Land Commission should step in and decide they could not sell for a year. They are still expected to pay the rates and taxes.

The Senator is in error. The period is three months.

Plus another three months.

Sections 12 and 13 especially, irrespective of what some Senators say, should make many a Fenian turn in his grave. The Landlord and Tenant Act of 1870 failed mainly because the principle of fixity of tenure was not recognised. When the Fair Rent Act of 1881 was passed, the farmers were finally granted what have been generally referred to since as the three F's. Every tenant was entitled to a tenancy. Every tenant was entitled to have his land reviewed and for the first time the Irish farmer was free to sell his land, if he so wished. Under this Bill the position would appear to be that the farmer is being deprived, to a certain extent, of free sale. Anyone who has to write to a Department for permission to sell his holding has certainly not got freedom to do so. If the Department have the right, and give themselves the right to allow the Irish farmers to sell, surely they have taken unto themselves the right of the farmer to sell his holding.

Under the Fair Rent Act, 1881, over 400,000 rents were fixed and also an average reduction of 20.7 per cent was made in them. Under section 7 of this Bill, the Government propose to double the rents on all new lands and all new holdings left by the Land Commission, with the exception of a few areas which are less congested.

On a point of order, is it correct to refer to land annuity as rent? Michael Davitt fought——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is not a point of order.

Under section 7, it is proposed to double the rents. I feel that this is not fair to the Irish farmer when you consider what all those people suffered in the early thirties. Section 35 is worrying very many farmers as it is now common practice here, if a farmer has more than one son and a place is put on the market convenient to his home, for him to buy it and keep it until the time comes to settle a second son in the place. Under section 35 if that outfarm should be more than three miles away from his home, it is liable to be taken over by the Land Commission. I feel this will affect quite a number of farmers in my county and in the country as a whole. While these places are being worked in a satisfactory way, I think they are certainly liable to be taken by the Land Commission. I feel this is most unfair.

Section 45 is a new section which we welcome and it is something we have been advocating for a very long time. There was a private-sponsored Bill called the Registration of Land Bill, 1963. Senator McGlinchey has apparently forgotten that section 45 of this Bill was introduced by the Minister for Agriculture some time ago when he thought it would be a good election vote-catcher in East Galway. Yet if as Senator McGlinchey alleged, it had been possible that this Bill was passed a year ago, it would have passed without section 45. There is nothing, good, bad or indifferent, in this Land Bill to deal with the purchase of land by aliens.

The late James Fintan Lalor was a Laois man, born just one and a half miles away from my own home. I should like to quote from a letter which he wrote in 1848 to the Editor of the Irish Felon:

I hold and firmly believe, that the enjoyment by the people of this right, of first ownership of the soil, is essential to the vigour and vitality of all other rights; to their validity, efficacy, and value; to their secure possession and safe exercise. For let no people deceive themselves or be deceived by the words, and colours, and phrases, and forms, of a mock freedom, by constitutions, and charters and articles, and franchises. These things are paper and parchment, waste and worthless. Let laws and institutions say what they will, this fact will be stronger than all laws, and prevail against them—the fact that those who own your land will make your laws, and command your liberties, and your lives.

I believe sections 12 and 13 of this Bill could well have been what the late James Fintan Lalor was writing about over 100 years ago, that the land belonged to the people. The Minister and the Government have no mandate from the people to make such a great change as they wish to make and I submit that any measure of this kind which affects the property of the people should be put before the people in a general election. The Government are afraid to do this because they remember the verdict the people gave on this Bill, in both the Roscommon and East Galway by-elections. Even so, they should still put this finally to the people in a general election and make it an issue. They should let the people finally decide whether the farmers of Ireland have a right to own their own land or not.

The Minister and quite a number of people think that this Bill will completely settle the entire question of congests in this country. I submit that the granting of the whole of the land of Ireland to one man in absolute irresponsible ownership for ever is a venture that is beyond the authority and the right of any generation to make. I feel if the people get a chance in a general election, they will in no uncertain way make the position quite clear. The Minister, in his opening remarks, invited questions and I hope he will be a little more lenient with the amendments we propose to put down on the Committee Stage than he was in Dáil Éireann. I shall leave over my further remarks until then.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on this Bill. I know a little about land. I remember the Congested Districts Board away back in 1912 and 1913 when they divided big estates in the parish I live in. Listening to people speaking here, one would imagine that land was something like the black plague that people were flying from. Yet in the next breath, we are told of a 60-acre holding that is worth £10,000 or £11,000. I never heard such inconsistency. I believe the people who have land have an obligation to the State to see that the land is put to proper use and properly worked.

We hear a good deal about land division but I know a couple of farmers in particular—I could cite them if I wished—who are not meeting their obligations. In this Bill we must attempt to stop that. A certain man bought a farm, paid a big price for it, nearly in the region of £50,000. He worked that farm for a number of years and a German came along and gave him nearly twice as much for it despite the 25 per cent tax. That counted for nothing. This involved over 550 acres of the best farm land in the County Meath. People should realise that drastic remedies are needed to put an end to this practice which if permitted to go on will result in the conquest of Ireland being re-enacted by the pocket book. The people who are buying the land are not going to the mountains or congested areas but into the more fertile lands of Meath and Limerick, the Golden Vale and Tipperary where our best land is.

I congratulate the Minister on the Bill which I believe is a good and necessary measure. We hear about the people flying from the land but I know a lot who flew from the land and it was not at all necessary. They had plenty of money but left it there, left their aged parents behind and went to America where they made big money. They had a motor car and every amenity they wanted. They were not deprived of dances, races or hurling matches.

In Clare we have about 75 to 80 per cent of holdings that are under £20 valuation but I know a parish in east Clare where there are only two large farms and in that area are the most industrious farmers I know and I should say there is more money in that parish than any other in the county. I was talking to one man there. He has two sons and grows about nine or 10 acres of potatoes, four acres of York cabbage, and vegetables and everything else. He said he came to Monasterevan one morning and made £110 in part of a day. He had a small two-ton truck. That man had only approximately 20 acres but anybody would take off his hat to salute that type of man. The others I referred to supply the Limerick market with potatoes and other vegetables in large measure. Of course a good deal of them come from Tipperary and from as far as Galway— Kinvara.

We hear people talk of the flight from the land, saying that another 60,000 or 80,000 will go but the fact is that every little farm put up for sale is quickly bought up. I saw three farms sold recently and it was not aliens who bought them. They made £200 an acre and were bought by small farmers who wanted to enlarge their holdings and were able to buy them as a result of their industry. I give credit to them.

Regarding setting of land, we know many Clare, Kerry and Cork men who go in and buy up good land each year, paying as much as £15 an acre for it. If these people can make a profit, having the land for only 11 months, as the land is too rich to keep cattle on it in the winter, how is it that people who have it for £1 or 25/- an acre cannot make a living or rear a family on it. Their standard of living makes all the difference. These are the people I should like to see getting land and I think they would not need a lot of it to make a good living. I know many small farmers in Clare with small valuations and I can say that their valuation is no index to their means. Often it would surprise you to find the amount of money left by a man with a small valuation. Those with big valuations seem to think they keep the whole country going. I think the small man of £20 or £25 valuation who has to take land in conacre and use every means to make a living is the real backbone of the nation. If these people could get 10 or 12 acres more and have it taken from those who are doing nothing with it except perhaps setting it and driving into town to pictures and race meetings or dog tracks and enjoying themselves, there would not be this flight from the land that we hear Senator L'Estrange and his colleagues talking of.

The figures are there.

The people have a love for the land in their bones. They cherish the ownership of it. The Senator should not mind the figures. If a nice little farm were selling in the Senator's district, I guarantee there would be men to bid for it, even if they had to travel from Clare or Kerry or Cork and they would have money to pay for it and need not go to the bank for it.

I shall finish by congratulating the Minister. If we had the compulsion that is spoken of, they would find all the loopholes in the world by which to circumvent and defeat its object.

This Bill certainly had a long and tedious passage in the Dáil and it seems it will have a tedious pasage in Seanad Éireann also. I am quite satisfied very good work was done in the Dáil in delaying the Bill because the Minister, in his wisdom, did bring in many amendments very welcome to anybody interested in the land question. Even in his final remarks, he said he had not been slow to introduce amendments whenever he was persuaded they were genuinely desirable. I am quite sure we should not be holding him up—the debate will probably go on all day tomorrow—if we had not some genuine amendments to make.

For myself, I can say that if I got two amendments made to this Bill on two sections I should be quite satisfied and would welcome the passage of the Bill through this House. The Land Bill is a very important measure, and deserves the attention which has been given to it in the other House. I am quite certain that if we delay the Minister here, he will agree that we are not trying to obstruct him, as he claimed at times in Dáil Éireann, but that we are trying to get the best Land Bill possible.

We all know the amount of land available for distribution is limited, and for that reason the problem of the congested districts, and the problem of smallholders in the rest of the country, will not be solved by any Land Bill, in my opinion. This Land Bill has come about 30 years too late. It should have come when Senator Boland was Minister for Lands, because he believed that a farm of 21 to 31 acres was a good economic holding. I know many people who got farms of 21 to 31 acres and I never saw many of them prospering on those farms.

Those who prospered were the exceptions. Some of the people who got those farms had little bits of land, and some of them had no land but had to be paid off for services given in the past. I found when they got that land, they let it and still looked for jobs with the county councils, with Bord na Móna, with the Forestry Branch, and even with the Land Commission. They never settled down to be farmers or labourers. They were half farmers and half labourers, and they were quite satisfied to get five or six months' work with a county council, or with another farmer, in order to qualify to stay at home on the land for another five or six months and perhaps draw social welfare benefits as long as they lasted. That was the pattern in the 21-acre farm.

I am in agreement with the Minister that the size of the farm should be at least 40 to 45 acres, but I should like to know if he is satisfied that the people who are getting these 40 to 45 acres are really able to live on these holdings. One would think that this was the first time a 40 to 45 acre holding was introduced. That has been going on for the past two or three years. It has been the policy of the Minister for the past two or three years to give farms of 40 to 45 acres. People in my parish have got such farms. In fact any land divided in Westmeath during the past three years has been divided into 40 to 45 acre holdings. I should like the Minister to make a survey to ascertain whether these people are able to live on farms of 40 to 45 acres. Usually the people who get them have fairly large, young families. A number of them leave the farms during the summer months and go to England to work there. If they are near Bord na Móna, or can get alternative work with another farmer, a county council, the Land Commission, or the Forestry Branch, they work there during the sommer months. In the begining they have an advantage because they get their social welfare payments for six months after coming to the new farm, but when the social welfare payments disappear they are in difficulty because it takes them years to become acclimatised to living on farms.

There were some remarks about migrants not getting a good reception when they came to the midlands. That is not my experience. As a matter of fact, when migrants came to my parish, they got a very good welcome. They proved themselves to be first-class people. The local people and the migrants have no fault to find with each other, and in fact there is great co-operation between them. That is the way it should be. No one in the midlands begrudges a person from a congested area getting a farm. In the midlands there are some small holders and it is quite natural that they should feel a bit sore if they do not get an increase in their holdings to bring them up to economic units.

When Westmeath is mentioned in the Dáil or Seanad, it is usually said that it is a county of ranchers, but I have with me a letter I got this morning from the county council. I asked them the number of holdings of over £20 valuation. They state that the total number of holdings in the county is 23,000 odd, and the total number of holdings with a valuation of £20 or over is 4,000 odd. There are 19,000 holdings in Westmeath of £20 valuation or less. A valuation of £1 works out as the equivalent of a statute acre of land, and we have up to 80 per cent of our holdings in Westmeath with 20 acres or less. For that reason, parts of Westmeath can be called congested areas just the same as Mayo, parts of Clare, Donegal or anywhere else.

I met the Minister when the Land Bill was being fought tooth and nail in the Roscommon by-election and I heard him telling people his idea was to increase their holdings to 40 or 45 acres. I passed through the place in which he was speaking, a place called Knocknaganny, and if I were given the whole parish I do not think I would call myself a farmer. The same goes for quite an amount of land in Mayo, Donegal, Roscommon and Leitrim.

I believe the Bill should be so drafted that the small holders would have equal opportunities of getting land, whether they came from Westmeath, Mayo, Donegal or any other county. If I were the Minister I would certainly make one demand. I would demand that the person who got land should be capable of working it, and willing to work it and that he would not be out looking for labouring jobs, as well as having his farm. Those who get good farms should live on them and, if they are not prepared to do that, then the Minister should use his powers to take the farm away and give it to those who are prepared to live on and out of them.

One type of person who has never got any consideration is the farmer's son. When land is being divided and he applies he is told that he is a landless man. A farmer may have two or three sons working on the land. They may be first class but, when land is being divided in the area, they get no consideration. They are told they are landless men. In time they emigrate to England where they go into industry, becoming square pegs in round holes. It is a pity there is not some provision to give these young men, excellent farmers that they are, some consideration when land is being divided.

There is a section in the Bill providing money for the purchase of farms for farmers who come from the congested districts. No money will be available for any farmer who does not come from a congested area. We are bitterly opposed to this section.

The section dealing with restrictions on sales and lettings will lead to wholesale abuses. For one thing, the day of the auctioneer letting land will be gone. It will be all private lettings. Every effort will be made to conceal the letting of land in the future. That is my belief. There are many reasons for the letting of land. One is lack of capital. Lack of capital arises because of lack of title. Half the small farmers in the country have no title. If one goes into a bank manager with a land certificate, and one's title is not right, the bank manager will not advance any money. A great many lettings are made merely because title is not right. There is nothing in this Bill to remedy that situation. I suppose there is nothing the Minister can do. Perhaps something will be done in the Succession Bill about those lands which have no proper legal owners.

We shall also oppose the section dealing with the annuities. I see no reason why a person from the congested areas who gets a good farm in the midlands should get that at half rent while small farmers with uneconomic holdings, who get an extension, will be asked to pay double. This looks to me like a move to get people out of the way. There may be some good in the section because it may put an end to the agitation in every parish in the midlands for the division of farms. I notice in the reports of a certain organisation that one very seldom sees land agitation appearing. It used to be quite a big business. If you wanted a good meeting all you had to do was to say that such a farm was to be divided and you had a full house.

I had an experience once of such a meeting. The owner of the particular farm walked in, walked up to the table, put down a pound note and said he would like to become a member of the organisation. That man's farm was never mentioned again. Not only that, but he still owns it, and will probably go on owning it. It should be a matter for the Land Commission to decide what farms will be divided. Political influence should not be used. I will say for the Minister that in recent divisions I have known people of different political opinions from the Minister's getting land in his own constituency. They are quite satisfied with their farms. I trust that good practice will continue.

A section which amuses me somewhat is the section giving the Minister power to hand over roads, etc., to the local authority. As far as we are concerned, we have too many roads. We have had to take over almost every road made by the Irish Land Commission and they were the worst roads ever made. In future the Land Commission should make good roads. They should put down tarmacadam roads and then hand them over to the local authority. That will reduce the cost of maintenance considerably.

With regard to rights of way, apparently in this Bill rights of way arise only in the case of land being acquired or sold. At the present time there is more trouble than ever over rights of way. In the past, rights of way were generally at the bottom of a drain and now there is a problem with modern machinery. It just cannot pass through these. I know a man who has never been able to get his wheat cut because he had no right of way and he could not get the machinery into his land. I know another case in which a man was prevented from going to his farm because, even though the right of way is marked on the Land Commission map, it is not registered. To settle the matter would mean visits to solicitors and courts, with possible bad relations between neighbours. The Minister should take this opportunity to settle every question of a right of way in which there is a dispute.

In relation to cow parks, every local authority takes over cow parks from the Land Commission when a farm is being divided in an area in which there is a demand for a cow park. When the Minister gives cow parks over to local authorities he should make it a condition precedent that these are properly cared for and properly manured. Cow parks all over the country are growing scutch grass and blackheads. They are a disgrace.

I was delighted the Minister introduced section 45. On every occasion here, when the opportunity offered, I have spoken about the sale of land to aliens. The only opportunity that did offer was on the Appropriation Bill and, on every Appropriation Bill since I came into this House, I have spoken about the sale of land to aliens. I considered it a very serious matter for the people of Ireland to allow the land of Ireland to be sold for dollars, marks, or anything else. There is now a change in policy on the part of the Government and it took a bit of courage, in my opinion, on the part of the Minister to introduce section 45.

In 1961 there was a convention in Mullingar at which Deputy Smith, then Minister for Agriculture, spoke. He said that if outsiders could do things better that we could and make a success of it, they would remain. He said that there were 12 million acres of land in the country, many of which were not being worked very well and that many of these holdings bought by foreigners, if they were to be disposed of locally, would not pay the rent or rates on them. He said that we should not try to throw a wall around the country and that the amount of land so far acquired by foreigners was only a fleabite in relation to the acreage that was there. He also said that many of the people who interested themselves in things of this nature were people not on the land, people who had made it their business to get away from the land; others were on the land but were not making a very great success of it. Apparently the Minister held on to that opinion until the Minister for Agriculture, at the convention in Galway, made the announcement that the section would be introduced into the Bill. I am glad the Minister has done so because we were definitely worried that so much land was going into the hands of foreigners.

In the midlands, many landowners are very concerned about the threat to the old time-honoured right of freedom of sale and fixity of tenure. I hope that even though there are vast powers in this Bill, the Minister will use them only when it is absolutely necessary. I also hope that any Minister who comes after him will approach this question of the division and purchase of land and the right of sale in a humane way. If the two sections in which the Minister refuses to give money to smallholders outside the congested areas, and asks people who get additional land outside the congested areas to pay double rent were removed, I could support the Bill.

It is obvious that this Bill will have a much easier passage through this House than it had through Dáil Éireann. Coming from a county in which the average farm is 26 acres and where fewer than 8,000 people are living on holdings with valuations under £20—and 6,000 of whom are living on 10 to 14 acres—I certainly welcome this Bill. I concede that neither this Government nor any other Government could possibly hope to satisfy the appetite and requirements of a large percentage of our farmers but nevertheless we are entitled to ask any administration and any Minister to make every possible acre available. Some people ask how is it possible in my county—and of course in some adjoining counties, which are somewhat the same as Monaghan—for people to live on these small holdings. It does appear strange but of course they have to work very hard. Unfortunately, in the last decade or so the market for a remunerative crop which we had, namely, flax, failed completely. The position now is that we have gone over more to root crops, such as potatoes, to supplement our incomes. Anybody will realise that this would not provide a decent standard of living for a man and his wife and family on 10 to 14 acres. For that reason I agree with Senator McAuliffe who referred to section 4 in which the Minister reserves the right to declare any particular area a congested area.

Notwithstanding all that has been said about the flight from the land, I have found that fewer people left the land in the Republic than in any country in Western Europe. For the House's information, I will quote the different percentages. In Belgium, 30 per cent left the land; in Germany, 35 per cent; in Sweden, 34 per cent; in Austria, 34 per cent; in the Netherlands, 27 per cent; in Denmark, 25 per cent; in France, 25 per cent; in Norway, 25 per cent; and in the United Kingdom and here 21 per cent. Notwithstanding that we have that percentage, and we would prefer that they did not leave the land, the percentage of people actively engaged on the land is 35 per cent. In Austria, the percentage is 28; in France, 25; in Denmark, 17; in Norway, 17; in Germany, 14; in Sweden, 11; in the Netherlands, 10; in Belgium and Luxembourg, eight per cent; and in the United Kingdom, four per cent. The figure for the United Kingdom is understandable because Great Britain is an industrial country. We often hear about the subsidies they are able to pay in Britain and the Six Counties and that is understandable as industry there is able to carry agriculture and the sky is the limit.

Finally, I regret to say that there will not be sufficient land available to meet the requirements of the vast majority but I am glad the Minister and the Government have had the courage to do what they can to settle the biggest number of farmers on economic holdings and for that I thank him and his administration.

I think we are all agreed that the relief of land congestion and the removal of uneconomic holdings are of paramount importance in land redistribution and in increasing the economic efficiency of our small farmers. There is much in this Bill which is praiseworthy, such as the new scheme for loans to farmers to facilitate land purchase, the annuities for ageing farmers and their wives or widows and the amendments to remedy the various minor defects in previous Land Acts.

In approaching the Bill there is at the back of my mind a fear that the enthusiasm with which the Bill has been drafted has affected it to such an extent that it has become a somewhat one-sided measure. By this I mean that there has perhaps been too great an emphasis on land redistribution and on the machinery which will relieve land congestion and, on the other hand, an overlooking of the economic and, to some extent, the social effects of the operation of the Bill, when enacted.

Always at the back of our minds we must have the economic wellbeing of the country as a whole and our determination to develop industry and agriculture side by side. While we are on the industrial side trying to make ourseves more and more efficient, we are trying to do the same thing on the agricultural side. I am afraid that in this Bill there are certain factors which may not lead to greater efficiency on the agricultural side and which may be, to some extent, detrimental and where the machinery may not be sufficiently workable in practical terms.

I appreciate the difficulties of the Minister in drafting this Bill, and I am not at all out of sympathy with his aims, which are very clear, but there are primarily three factors which I feel we should bear in mind in looking at the Bill, and which perhaps are not highlighted in it but which we need to examine very closely. The first is that certain sections of the Bill will result in delays in effecting the sale of land; secondly, there is, I believe, a potential —I would go further a real—danger of interference with fundamental rights of ownership in land; and thirdly, certain of the economic results of enacting this Bill in its present form may involve a reduction in land values.

I shall deal first of all with the question of delays which may result in the effecting of sales. Section 12 aims at uniform control over subdivision and subletting, and tries to remove a situation in which small uneconomic holdings can be recreated. This is, of course, admirable as an aim, but as I read the section there seems to be no limit on the time during which the Land Commission can withhold consent to let or sub-let or sub-divide. This could be to the detriment of a vendor and could lead to serious delays in certain cases. Where, for example, there is land on the margin of a town area but just inside the area covered by the relevant section of this Bill development might not take place for a considerable time simply because the Land Commission would be able to without consent for an unlimited period. In such circumstances, a person owning land which might become suitable for building or for factory development, might be seriously economically damaged by the action of the Land Commission. I do not think this is very likely, but as the Bill is drafted there is that danger.

In section 13, the aim is to prevent obstruction to acquisition by the Land Commission by way of secret sale. The period during which the Land Commission are able to hold up the sale has been cut down, by amendment in the Dáil, from one year to three months or a further three months. There is still a possible period of six months during which a sale can be held up. As has already been pointed out in the Seanad, this could have some unfortunate effects on sales taking place under order of a court, or sales contracted for prior to the serving of Land Commission notice, or sales in the course of the administration of a deceased's estate. Beneficiaries in all those cases could be at serious economic loss through a drop in the value of the property.

Much more serious than these possible delays on the part of the Commission is the interference with the fundamental rights of ownership of land. That, of course, arises to some small extent in section 20 and to a much greater extent in sections 35 and 42. In section 20, the Land Commission can come in and provide car parks and other amenities which again is an entirely admirable and very welcome aim, but my objection to the section is in the narrowness of the restriction preventing the Land Commission from coming in and acquiring rights over lands adjoining an occupied dwellinghouse.

If adjoining means anything I think it must mean "actually touching" so that while a small strip of land might be adjoining the dwellinghouse, a car park might be placed so near the dwellinghouse as to completely destroy any amenity value it might provide.

The objection to section 35 is very much stronger because here the Commission have power to acquire land irrespective of how it is farmed and unless the owner falls within the categories laid down he will have no defence against acquisition by the Commission if they wish to exercise their rights. There are certain factors here which are much too broad.

The requirement that all the interested parties must be resident within three miles of the farm is surely impractical, notwithstanding the slight let-out given later at the end of the section. Again the requirement with regard to a body corporate, that all the beneficial owners of the shares must reside within three miles of the farm, must be impractical. The case of the body corporate is not really a rare case. Nowadays, a great number of families on the larger farms own their farms by way of farming companies. This is sometimes for reasons of tax, sometimes for reasons of avoidance of death duties, sometimes for reasons of genuinely sharing a farm. Occasionally there is a case where a genuine investment in a farm has been made by some outsider just as he would make an investment in an industrial or commercial company.

The average company of this kind has shares in the name of the husband, shares in the name of the wife and shares, perhaps, in trust for children under a settlement. The beneficial owners here could be the husband, wife and children. But in many cases the children may be out of the country, because they would not inherit until such time as their father either wished to give up the farm or the widowed mother wished to give up the farm or both of them had actually died. But the reliefs which are given in this Bill to individual families are not given to family holdings of shares. It would be only fair to take into consideration the form of farming company to enable shares to pass in the same way as a direct interest in the land. At the same time, it is really impractical and wrong —although I can see the aim behind it —to leave power in the Land Commission to take over a farm simply because some of the beneficial owners or some of the beneficial owners of shares in a farming company are not actually living on the land.

Finally, I am concerned about the economic results of certain aspects of the Bill. The delays of which I have spoken earlier must result in a reduction of land values. The other economic results I see to some extent as a byproduct of section 45. This on the whole is a section which has been welcomed almost completely by the House. The ownership of Irish land in Irish people is very dear to us as a nation and has an historic mystique which we cannot easily get out of our minds. It is strange in some ways that we should feel so strongly about our land and yet not feel so strongly about our industries.

While it is right that we should have power to prevent foreigners from buying up our land, I do not think we should get this out of proportion. It has been in the past, as I understood it, the policy of the Government to attract wealthy foreigners to this country. It is one of the reasons why our maximum estate duty rate is 40 per cent as compared with a maximum estate duty rate in the United Kingdom of 80 per cent. We have hoped to attract foreigners here and to get them to live here—and, perhaps, to die here and pay death duties here—but also to invest their money here in industry and agriculture. We should not lose sight of the fact that many foreigners—not all—who come here have proved to be good and efficient farmers and have in many cases taken houses and lands which few Irishmen could have afforded to buy and have kept them up and have given employment which few Irishmen could have afforded to give.

With this in mind, I suggest that the restriction to a five acre holding to a house which is going to be bought by a foreigner is too narrow. I do not know whether the Minister would consider, as Senator Stanford suggests, 25 acres—which would seem to be a little more than I would have thought essential—or whether he would consider some figure between five and 25, say 20 acres, as a more reasonable area to enable someone buying the sort of big house which usually only foreigners can afford to buy. But they will need more than 5 acres to have grazing for horses or pasture for a few cows. I would like to appeal to the Minister to reconsider that five acres. I think it is a carry-over from a section of a former Finance Bill which proved impractical to operate and recently has been dropped. I would like to see the area either extended to 20 acres or, alternatively, to such figure as the Land Commission in their discretion thought suitable for the nature of the house being bought.

To sum up, I welcome the Bill in principle. It has many fine points and I must welcome the spirit of it. But in its efforts to right one wrong I fear the Bill creates some others and that it may result, if we do not amend it, in some reduction in land values. It will certainly result in destruction of security of tenure and it may have certain economic effects which, I feel, are contrary to the aims of the Second Programme.

The Seanad adjourned at 10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 21st January, 1965.

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