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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 1965

Vol. 58 No. 14

British and Irish Steam Packet Company Limited (Acquisition) Bill, 1965—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

A greater measure of Irish participation in the cross-Channel trade has for long been an important objective of Government policy and has been the subject of debate and questions in the Oireachtas. Possible measures to achieve this objective were considered as long ago as 1938 but there have been certain fundamental difficulties. The trade was carried on by long established undertakings who possessed all the necessary docking and other facilities at both sides of the Irish Sea as well as the important business connections.

It was obvious that for a new Irish company to break into this trade on a competitive basis would be a hazardous and costly undertaking even if they could secure satisfactory portal facilities. The alternative to setting up a new undertaking was to buy an existing undertaking or take a share in one and this was the solution which the Government saw to be inevitable from an early date. Possible arrangements of this kind were explored on a number of occasions over the years but for one reason or another did not come to fruition.

The agreement to purchase the B. & I. from Coast Lines is the result of exploratory contacts which commenced as long ago as 1960 and of detailed negotiations on the purchase which commenced in September, 1963. These negotiations have been carried on by officers of my Department in consultation with officers of the Department of Finance. A tribute is due to the senior officers of my Department for their labours in carrying out the negotiations involving many complex matters. They have advised me that throughout the protracted discussions they were met in a fair and reasonable way by the Coast Lines representatives, to whom a tribute is also due. The secrecy of the negotiations had to be preserved for many reasons, including the need to avoid speculation on the Stock Exchange and I think it fair to say that the secret was well kept. We have also had the benefit of the advice as consultant of a distinguished accountant, Dr. Howard Robinson of the firm, Polden Robinson & Co. Ltd., Dublin.

The B. & I. with its subsidiary, the City of Cork Steampacket Co. Ltd., is one of the two major cross-Channel companies, the other being British Railways. The company has a fleet of nine motor vessels including the large passenger/cargo/cattle vessels, the "Munster", the "Leinster" and the "Innisfallen." It operates regular passenger cargo and cattle services daily (except Sundays) between Dublin and Liverpool and thrice weekly between Cork and Fishguard as well as cargo or cattle services between Dublin and Liverpool, Dublin/Preston, Dublin/ Manchester, Cork/Fishguard, Cork/ Liverpool, Dundalk/Liverpool and Drogheda/Liverpool.

The B. & I. carries a very substantial proportion of the regular cross-Channel trade. The report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into cross-Channel freight rates published in 1959 showed that the B. & I. carried about 45 per cent of the livestock traffic and, together with Coast Lines and Burns and Laird, carried some 56 per cent of total traffic. The B. & I. Dublin/Liverpool service alone carried 24 per cent of total liner traffic. Broadly, the Company's share of regular cross-Channel liner trade at that time appeared to be of the order of some 40 per cent. Up to date estimates of the proportions of traffic carried by the different companies are not available.

Apart from freight, the company's passenger services between Dublin and Liverpool which handle about 250,000 passengers per annum and Cork and Fishguard which handle about 80,000 per annum are of considerable importance to our tourist trade as are the facilities provided for tourist cars on the Dublin/Liverpool route. The company employs about 800 regular staff ashore and 320 afloat as well as giving employment to an average of over 300 dockers in Dublin and 50 in Cork and to a further 20 to 30 each at Dundalk and Drogheda on days when a vessel is loading or discharging there. The purchase will, therefore, assure complete Irish control over a very substantial sector of total cross-Channel trade.

The conclusion of the agreement to purchase the B. & I. is the result of protracted negotiations and very hard bargaining. Coast Lines Ltd. were prepared to enter into negotiations only on the firm understanding that the B. & I., if acquired by the Government, would continue to be operated on strictly commercial lines. Coast Lines have been given a firm assurance in writing that the B. & I. will be managed on commercial lines as a self-supporting commercial entity without special Government measures which would place it in an adventageous position as compared with Coast Lines other liner services and generally that it will not be operated in such a manner as to damage the legitimate interests of the Coast Lines group. Coast Lines similarly have given an assurance that the companies of the Coast Lines group will not be managed in such a way as to be detrimental to the interests of the B. & I.

It is very desirable also that other cross-Channel shipping companies, whether Irish owned or otherwise, should be assured that the company will be run on sound commercial lines and that they will not be exposed to unfair competition by a State-subsidised concern.

The Agreement scheduled to the Bill provides for the purchase of the entire issued share capital at a price of £3,606,922. This price is based on a valuation of the assets. The fleet was valued by a leading firm of ship brokers and valuers, Tamplin & Co. Ltd., London, who were commissioned by my Department with the agreement of Coast Lines. Their valuation represents their estimate of the open market value of the ships of the fleet. The company's real property in Dublin was valued by Montgomery & Son Ltd., a Dublin firm of surveyors and valuers, who were commissioned by Coast Lines and the Commissioner of Valuation advised me that their valuation was acceptable. Other movable assets, such as cranes, etc. were taken over at book value.

The price of £3,606,922 also includes a sum of approximately £650,000 owing by Coast Lines to the B. & I. This sum represents the depreciation reserves of the B. & I. which have up to now been placed on loan at the disposal of the parent company. This sum will be repaid to the B. & I. by Coast Lines as soon as the exact amount is determined when the accounts for the year 1964 have been completed and audited. Certain assets listed in the Schedule to the Agreement have been excluded from the purchase and the value of these as shown in the books of the company at £202,277 must also be paid by Coast Lines to the B. & I. The purchase price, therefore, includes in all some £850,000 in liquid assets. No sum is included in respect of goodwill and the company is, therefore, being taken over at the estimated market value of the assets.

In accordance with normal commercial practice, interest is payable on the purchase price as from the date of the Agreement, 2nd February, 1965 until the purchase moneys have been paid to Coast Lines. This cannot be done until this Bill has been enacted and the transaction completed. In the interval Coast Lines have agreed to appoint nominees of the Government to vacancies on the Board of the B. & I. so as to ensure that Irish interests will be represented until the transaction is completed.

The Agreement also provides for the conclusion of an Agency Agreement between the companies under which Coast Lines will be appointed the sole agent of the B. & I. in Britain and Northern Ireland. Similarly, there is provision for the conclusion in due course of corresponding agreements between the B. & I. on the one hand and constituent companies of the Coast Lines group on the other under which the B. & I. will continue to have the sole agency in the State for these companies.

These agreements provide in effect for the continuation of the present commercial arrangements which exist between the companies subject only to such changes as necessarily arise out of the change of ownership of the B. & I. They provide for rates and terms of commission, etc. and specify the services to be performed by each company for the other. They ensure, inter alia, that the important passenger and cargo terminal facilities controlled by Coast Lines at Liverpool and elsewhere will be available to the B. & I. and that the B. & I. in its turn will continue to make corresponding facilities available to the Coast Lines group of companies including the passenger terminal and other facilities for the Burns & Laird Line at Dublin.

Among other arrangements provided for in the Agreement are the provision of relief vessels by Coast Lines to the B. & I. on the same terms as to the constituent members of the Coast Lines group. The availability of satisfactory relief vessels for the large passenger/cargo/cattle vessels the "Munster", "Leinster" and "Innisfallen" is most important to the maintenance of the regular B. & I. services and such specialised vessels could not readily be chartered for temporary periods in the open market. The agreements are mutually beneficial commercial agreements between the companies and in accordance with normal commercial practice the detailed terms are being treated as confidential.

The purchase will be effective as from 1st January, 1965 and profits after that date will accrue to the Government. Profits up to 31st December, 1964 will, of course, accrue to Coast Lines. The Agreement provides for the payment of a dividend to Coast Lines in respect of the year 1964 limited to the net profit earned after deduction of all expenses properly chargeable to revenue and payment of tax.

Turning to the future, I must quite frankly dispose of any idea that the ownership of the B. & I. will result in dramatic changes in the cross-Channel freight rate structure. The accounts of the B. & I. have hitherto been incorporated in those of the Coast Lines group and have not been published separately. In connection with the negotiations, however, we had to get the separate audited accounts of the B. & I. for a number of years past. These reveal that the net profits of the company have been falling steadily. Profits after taxation which amounted to £184,000 in 1952 had fallen to £124,000 in 1956 at the time of the investigation into cross-Channel freight rates and to barely £2,600 in 1963. This was a particularly bad year for a number of reasons, however, and the profits for the year 1964 are expected to be of the order of £77,000 before taxation.

These profits are calculated on the basis of depreciation on historic cost and, in view of the very substantial increases in shipbuilding costs, depreciation at this level does not provide nearly sufficient reserves to finance the replacement of the company's vessels in due course. For instance, one of the large passenger/cargo/cattle vessels like the "Munster" which cost in the neighbourhood of £650,000 in 1948 would now be likely to cost from £1½ to £2 million to replace. Senators will appreciate, therefore, why it was that the Government was able to drive a hard bargain for the purchase of the company.

At this point it is desirable to summarise the general economics of cross-Channel sea transport particularly in relation to the low profits of the B. & I. Senators who have read the report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into cross-Channel freight rates will recollect the analysis made by the Tribunal of the effect on conventional shipping services of the new specialised container and ferry services. The conventional services like the railways have operated a rates structure based largely on the value of the goods.

The container and ferry services on the other hand have adopted the road transport system of charging according to the size and weight and loadability of the goods irrespective of their value. This has enabled the specialised services to compete with lower rates for the high value goods which the conventional shipping companies had hitherto carried at high rates. On the other hand, the container services do not compete for low value goods on which conventional shipping freights are much lower and which in general are not in any case suitable for containerisation. Neither do the container or ferry services compete for the carriage of cattle or of passengers.

While in an effort to meet increased costs there have been a number of increases in the general rate book levels of cross-Channel freights, actual rates charged on goods passing in regular and reasonably substantial quantities have generally been at exceptional rates settled with the shippers on a bargaining basis. In effect, the shipping companies carrying mixed cargoes have had to reduce rates in order to compete with the container services.

They have also provided container services of their own, using either the conventional vessels or specialised vessels, but all these specialised services whether independent or not are inevitably in competition with the regular liner freight services. This competition from specialised container services has grown steadily in recent years. At present independent container services are operated daily between Dublin and Preston, twice weekly between Drogheda and Preston and thrice weekly between Greenore and Preston. The B. & I. itself operates a specialised container service between Dublin and Liverpool five times weekly and British Railways carry containers to a growing extent on their regular services.

The cross-Channel companies have had to face very substantial increase in costs which because of competition, customer resistance and public pressures, they have been unable to recoup fully by increased charges. Net freight revenue of the B. & I. which amounted to £547,000 in 1952 had declined to £396,000 by 1963. Over the same period expenditure had increased from £233,000 in 1952 to £493,000 in 1963. These increases in costs were largely determined by factors outside the control of the company. Labour costs at sea follow international standards and for shore staff have been determined by national increases in levels of remuneration. Loading and unloading charges which amount to between 30 per cent and 40 per cent of the Company's total expenses are also to a considerable extent outside their control.

It will be well to recall the general conclusions of the Tribunal who reported in 1959 on the subject of cross-Channel freight rates that from the standpoint of the trading results it could not be said that the level of rates had been unjustifiably high but that a major criticism of the conference arose from its tendency to create a situation in which innovation entailing a possible disturbance of the existing pattern of traffic was discouraged so that its introduction might be gravely delayed. As I have already indicated, this is no longer the position and the rapid development of container traffic has precipitated a period of rapid change in the cross-Channel trade and of difficulties for the major shipping companies operating regular liner services.

It would be helpful to Senators if I make it clear that comparisons between individual freight rates on different routes are in general most unrewarding. In comparing individual freight rates on the cross-Channel services with rates for similar goods on routes elsewhere, the following factors have to be taken into account:

(1) The overall costs of maintaining regular services on the route including such factors as seasonality, balance of trade in each direction and the cost of terminal facilities at the particular ports used.

(2) The rate structure obtaining on the route, i.e. whether rates are determined by class or by such factors as cubic weight and loadability.

(3) The quantities of particular goods and the regularity with which they pass over the services and whether a package deal or exceptional rate has been negotiated with the particular shippers because of the volume of business.

Examination by my Department of complaints made from time to time did not establish that rates in any particular case could be regarded as excessive. Even where comparisons with other routes showed lower rates for particular commodities than on the cross-Channel services, it was found that differences in circumstances arising out of one or more of the factors I have mentioned made the comparison invalid. The only valid comparison that can be made between freight rates on the cross-Channel services and comparable services abroad is on the basis of the profitability of the undertakings, assuming reasonably efficient operation in both cases. The trading results of the B. & I. which are now available to us make it clear that on this criterion it cannot be argued that the freight rates charged by the company have been excessive.

The cross-Channel shipping trade is in fact at present in the throes of a period of rapid evolutionary change which in some respects is comparable to the position which was brought about in inland transport by the competition of road with rail. On the one hand, the conventional shipping companies operate regular liner services for passenger/cargo and cattle which must operate on a regular basis irrespective of short-term variations in the volume of traffic. They likewise carry all goods offered just like the railway. On the other hand the specialised container services compete only for what is to a great extent the cream of the traffic and do not provide services for other goods. While the analogy with road and rail competition is helpful in understanding the nature of the changes that are going on it should not be carried too far. Shipping companies will fortunately not have to cope with competition from small units comparable to privately owned lorries or motor cars. The prospect is that over a period of some years the character of the cross-Channel shipping services and the freight rates structure will be modified by the various factors I have mentioned.

Our ownership of a substantial part of the cross-Channel services over these critical and formative years will help to ensure that the changes carried out and the ultimate structure of the services which emerge will be such as to reflect Irish interests. The B. & I. will in these matters be the watch dog of Irish interests.

A further important consideration is that in a situation in which the B. & I. profits were diminishing rapidly outside interests might not be prepared either to meet heavy temporary losses or to incur substantial new capital expenditure, if that were necessary, in order to maintain and improve the services so as to ensure their adequacy for our trade. The services operated by the B. & I. are most important ones both for our trade and for tourism and it is essential to our interests that they should not be run down or disappear. Were that to happen the Government would in any case have no alternative but to step in and measures taken at a later stage might be much less effective than taking over the company now.

The company will be run on commercial lines and there can, of course, be no question of substantial freight reductions or discriminatory action in favour of Irish trade which would in any case be contrary to our international commitments. Moreover, it should be remembered that shipping is an important business in its own right and that freight earnings are the precise economic equivalent of export earnings. Even if it were possible to do so, it would not make economic sense to accept heavy losses on our shipping services merely to provide a general and unselective subsidy for a part of the cross-Channel trade carried by the services and over the routes of one particular company.

The Irish company will be requested to examine all the factors and elements which together constitute the basis for a nationally orientated commercial policy. Since this old established company is coming under new management and control, it will be desirable to outline them briefly:

(1) An analysis of the cross-Channel merchandise freight market.

This involves some assumptions as to the growth of trade over the next ten years—its content, related to the detailed analysis prepared for the economic programme; its division between merchandise suitable for containers or pallet and for other means.

(2) The same examination in relation to livestock and a critical analysis of the cycles in cattle exports—the possibility of smoothing out the cycles and of changes in the volume of exports.

(3) An analysis of the present-day traffic and its content related to method of packing, use of unit loads, the available cargo space, the frequencies of sailings, onward road and rail services and destinations.

(4) The evaluation of efficiency and productivity in regard to all the above elements of study, in turn related to the handling at the ports, movement of merchandise from port to ship, the stowage of cargo and utilisation of space, the costs of ship operation, the costs of maintenance, the keeping of clerical records, accountancy, stock control and so forth.

(5) The examination of the passenger traffic facilities in respect of tourists and Irish people coming on family visits, both in relation to amenities and to future potential. This study would, of course, extend to the very vital contribution of the B. & I. to motor car traffic to and from Ireland.

(6) The examination of the sales organisation.

There is a whole complex series of problems, referred to by consultants and by experts, connected with joint marketing, the amount, size of consignment, packaging, and how exporters can secure lower transport costs by more careful examination of their procedures under every head.

(7) These elements having been examined, the company would base its conclusions and decisions on the following general principles:

(i) The provision of the most economical, efficient service to advance the trade of the country.

(ii) The assessment of commercial viability.

(iii) The continuation and further development of the best possible communications and relations with the staff at all levels in order that growth of productivity may be fully understood and linked with conditions of employment and monetary reward.

May I make it absolutely clear that the new Board will inherit a respectable tradition of competence in freight handling. Relatively few complaints have come my way on the freight side. A few complaints have been evident in regard to the second-class passenger facilities. Considerable improvements have been made in the past two years and this year further improvements.

The new Board will, I am certain, be able to effect progress, although quick results cannot be expected. The staff will, I am sure, work together with the object of demonstrating that a wholly Irish owned and managed cross-Channel shipping company can show the same spirit of endeavour as, for example, the cross-Channel national airline has already done. For this there must be enthusiasm on all sides.

I have thought it well to give a realistic report on the present shipping position so as to dispel all talk of subsidies. On the other hand, I should like to affirm my confidence and that of the Government that under wholly Irish direction and management, and with the assistance of modern management and other techniques and the support of the trading community, the B. & I. can render services to the community with greater efficiency and satisfaction and, in due course, provide a reasonable return on the investment we are now making.

The Minister quite rightly has given us a very comprehensive picture of the operation of taking over the B. & I. Steamship Company, of which operation we are asked to approve today. We all know this is a most important operation, and merits the fullest explanation, not only to the Dáil and the Seanad, but to the country. The Minister has certainly given us a very comprehensive statement.

The necessity for Irish participation in the cross-Channel services is acknowledged by everyone and, indeed, is long overdue. Inadequate or inefficient transport communication across the Irish Sea could be a serious barrier to our economic growth. In fact, I feel it has already been a barrier in some respects, both as regards industrial and agricultural exports, not to mention tourism. Communication has certainly not been as good as we would wish it to be, up to now. Over the years the cross-Channel services have not been particularly notable for their efficiency, There has certainly been inefficiency, bad time-keeping, and a failure to provide modern services in proportion to the growth of the demand and the ever-growing volume of traffic which has been built up over the past 20, 30 or 40 years. Unfortunately improvements came slowly and insufficiently.

For instance at Dún Laoghaire, we know that year after year travellers were treated more like refugees fleeing from a country, and sometimes like cattle, rather than like human beings and tourists. It took a long time to get efficiency. I first went to England in about 1910 when I was only nine years of age. I have travelled the Irish Sea thousands of times and, in my experience, as the years went by, the services, instead of becoming better and better, became worse and worse. Since 1946 or 1947 I have had to go across on business practically every ten days, and only on two occasions were we in time coming into Euston Station. We varied from being half an hour late, to three or four hours late. Even now after all those years, I think it is fair to say that there are little or no facilities at Dún Laoghaire for meeting or seeing off friends or relatives, or even children. In this country we are looking to our tourist trade, and also we have relatives and friends who go backwards and forwards across the Channel. There are also the Irish people who are living in England and who cross the Channel.

Things were so bad that it was even suggested that there was a positive desire to prevent people coming to Ireland, or at least to make it unpleasant and difficult for them to do so. Quite frankly, I do not think that is the case. I do not want to be too anti-anyone, or to say anything out of turn, but it is true that part of the fault has been the inefficiency of British Railways. Dr. Beeching has made some attempt to put things in order. It was thought at one time that the inefficiency was directed at the Irish Mail. I have had experience of travelling in England outside of London, and British Railways are equally inefficient in areas which have nothing to do with Ireland. However, the fact was that so far as Ireland was concerned, they provided an inefficient and bad service, which was uncomfortable for travellers between Ireland and England.

Of course the advent and growth of Aer Lingus was a boon and a blessing to the travelling public, both to our citizens and to tourists travelling backwards and forwards. We have shown in Aer Lingus that we can provide an efficient service which can meet the challenge of any transport system in the world, and therefore the cross-Channel system should be reasonably improved under our own control.

During the emergency, Irish Shipping was established to keep open our supply routes to the whole world, but we have never dealt with the shortest, and perhaps the most important, route across the Irish Sea between Ireland and England. The Government quite rightly have tackled the problem, and we have been told by the Minister that we had the alternative of either opening a new service or taking over an established one. The Minister has told us there were so many factors involved: shipping rights, and port rights; that it was abviously right to take over a company which already had made the basic arrangements for conducting the service between the two countries. In all the circumstances the course of taking over an existing company was the correct one.

As we have been told, the B. & I.— and its subsidiary, the City of Cork Steamship Company—is one of the two major cross-Channel companies. The other one is British Railways. We have also been told that this take-over involves a fleet of some nine motor vessels operating a passenger and cargo service daily across the Irish Channel, and that apparently the B. & I. Dublin-Liverpool service gives something like 24 per cent of the total liner traffic. Therefore, the fact is that we are going into this business in a big way. I think to do it in any smaller way would be ineffective and unjustifiable.

The Minister has also told us there is a firm understanding that the B. & I. will continue to be operated on strictly commercial lines as a self-supporting entity, and will not subject the other cross-Channel shipping companies to unfair competition from a State-subsidised concern such as this will be.

On the other hand, we must conclude that the B. & I. must make itself fully competitive and I take it that there will not be any question of being nice to other people, that they will really be efficient and see that the rates are the lowest possible and that there is no question of collusion or just fitting into the accepted pattern, because people expect in all businesses that everybody is trying not, perhaps, to cut the other fellow out but at least to give the best value even if it hurts others provided it is not done unfairly or uneconomically. Therefore, I would conclude from the Minister's statement that there will not be any underhand subsidisation that will create unfair competition.

The price, which is £3,606,922, does seem to me in all the circumstances to be a reasonable one. We are told that the profit-earning capacity of the company has been declining, and, indeed, I think it is fair to say that it is losing money at the present time because it does not make sufficient arrangement for the replacement of ships on a realistic basis, as the Minister has referred to, but I must say that there is an interesting point here from the profit point of view. We have heard today what Senator Murphy said in the debate on the previous Bill. I did not take part in that debate, but Senator Murphy claimed that profits were not being affected by rising labour costs. He quoted, as he was quite right to do from his point of view, only those companies making profits. Here we have a case where the Government are dealing with a company and the whole picture is being opened up and we find that profits have declined from £184,000 in 1952 to £2,163 this year and even then the fact is that it is not making a profit at all. Why is that? It is because of labour costs and all the other factors involved in running a modern business. Here is a dramatic case opened up before our eyes showing that rising labour and other costs will make it increasingly difficult for any kind of business to make the kind should in the future.

I do not make this comment in any of profits required if we are going to develop this country in the way that we anti-labour spirit but simply as a statement of the facts of economic life which Senator Murphy provoked by his remarks today. The fact is that you cannot keep on imposing year after year more and more costs on any enterprise of any kind without causing this sort of thing to happen. Maybe it is good in this case, because I do not think that the B. & I. would have sold themselves to the Government unless this had happened. I want to take this opportunity of saying it because it is important that it should be said in dealing with our economy, that one of the troubles that face employers and leaders of industry is that very often they do not want to show losses or decreases in profits and, therefore, they do everything possible despite how high their costs are mounting to take every opportunity to try to show a good profit position, very often by calling on reserves, and, therefore, the picture one sees in the paper of prosperity is not really a true and perfect picture of their position.

There are certain companies that, no matter what impositions are made on them in the form of expenses, because of the particular form of operation in which they are engaged can pass on their expenses, but by and large very few people in this country are really in any very strong position profit-wise because of the grave and strong impositions made on them in the form of expenses of all kinds—not only labour costs but Government impositions and taxation of one kind or another. I am glad to be able to stand up here and see this picture presented of what has happened in the B. & I. Company over the last few years, in regard to a company which now the State is quite rightly going to take over.

I read the Dáil debates like everybody else in the Seanad when there is a Bill coming up here, but I read them, not to find out what to say on a particular Bill, but rather to find out what has already been said in the Dáil so as not to repeat it for the boredom of the Minister all over again. On this Bill I read the debate in the Dáil, and the aspect of the price paid in relation to profit-earning capacity and the provision for depreciation suitable for the replacement of the ships that of necessity may from time to time arise has been fully dealt with already by Deputy Dillon in the Dáil. Therefore, I do not propose to weary the Minister by again referring to this particular aspect except to say that in all the circumstances in spite of the picture of the profit decline I agree with the conclusion of the deal by the Government.

I notice in reading the Dáil debate that the Labour Party spokesman took exception to the power given to the Minister in section 4 of the Bill. I think it was Deputy Corish who referred to this section, which provides that the Minister for Finance may hold for so long as he thinks fit the shares of the company acquired by him under this Act and after consultation with the Minister may as and when he thinks fit sell or otherwise dispose of all or any of such shares, and that the net proceeds of a sale by the Minister for Finance of shares of the company shall be paid into or disposed of for the benefit of the Exchequer. It seems to me that it is suggested by the Labour spokesman that there would be something wrong in giving the Minister the power to put the B. & I. on the public market if he so desires, but surely the Minister should not be prevented from selling the concern at any time if he thinks fit in the interests of the economy, for instance, supposing he wanted to use the proceeds, if he made a success of this particular operation, for some other desirable enterprise for which money was not otherwise available. That is only an ordinary business operation. If a man in a private enterprise makes a success of a particular business and wants to sell out and develop something else there is nothing wrong about it, and similarly there is nothing wrong about it here except from purely doctrinaire ideas that everything must be held by the State. Furthermore, there is evidence, in this sort of criticism, of rigidity of thinking with regard to State enterprise and private enterprise. This conflict between private and State enterprise can be a cancer in our economy. It is time that it should be avoided. It is rigidity of thinking by private enterprisers that everything should be run by private enterprise, and on the other hand it is equal rigidity of thinking by State enterprisers to take the opposite view. There is really no clear-cut line between these two steps in a modern democratic economy. The fact is that there is a place for each and there should not be any conflict, but rather there should be co-operation where it is good for the economy. It is becoming recognised more and more by thinking people that there should be co-operation instead of conflict between those two forms of enterprise. This has been translated into practical action here today. This attitude of mind, in fact, creates unnecessary doctrinaire conflicts which are completely out of place in our small and compact community, in a country like this. They are bad enough in a big country where you get very rich people and very poor people and you get right, left and centre, but to introduce this sort of thing in a small country like this is very wrong.

This was very short-sighted and narrow-minded. Of course the Minister should have the power, given under section 4, to sell or otherwise dispose of any or all of the shares. He might, for example, have a better use for the capital invested in the B. & I. If so, he should have the power to realise the investment. Furthermore, if in what we hope is a remote possibility, the enterprise proved a great failure and a great loss to the taxpaper, surely the Minister should have the power to dispose of it and so relieve the taxpayer of an encumbrance which he should not be asked to bear any further.

I do not feel altogether certain that this operation will prove profitable and viable unless the new management succeed in making the company more efficient in every way than it has been in the past. Much will depend on the activity, imagination and enterprise of the new board of directors— and the management, of course—in managing the company in such a way that it will give first-class service to passenger traffic and in its freight-traffic operations. Mr. Greer is a wellknown and respected businessman in the private enterprise sector. His appointment as Chairman augurs well for the prospect of increased efficiency in the B. & I. It is also symbolic of the enlightened and happy relationship which has been built up in this State in recent years between private and State enterprise. The use of successful private enterprise businessmen in State bodies is wise.

The Chairman of the B. & I. has not yet been appointed. Mr. Greer has been made Chairman of Irish Shipping, Limited, by the Minister for Finance.

He is just as good there as any place.

Mr. Greer is on the Board of the B. & I.

The idea of using a successful private enterprise man in a State operation is good. The argument is as valid in one capacity as in another. I wish this operation every success, as I am sure we all do. I hope that a policy of efficient and courteous service will be pursued. I do not want to say anything against the old B. & I. There was a certain amount of confusion about passenger traffic, if I may say so. It certainly could be very much improved on in giving efficient and courteous service to everybody, regardless of whether they are VIP's or just ordinary travellers. I hope it will be kept up to date in every possible way. I hope it will follow the headlines set by Aer Lingus and be ahead of the times and ahead of other people. That being so, we can look forward to a much-needed "up-to-dateness" in cross-Channel shipping traffic which we already have got in the air and which I hope we shall now have on the sea. I have pleasure in supporting this Bill.

I should like to welcome this Bill as one who, on a number of occasions, had to make representations to the company operating the service in question about the conditions which obtained for passengers, particularly our young people going to and coming back from Britain. I am sure many people have expressed the hope, as I often did, that, at some stage our Government would take over the service and run it on a more humane basis. Some of the tales told were most horrible. I know that families who visited this country for holidays never expected that they would have to endure what they did endure when using that service to our country. I venture to say that a number of people were lost to us in the sense of loss of the money they would have spent here if the service had been more modern and up-to-date because these people would not come here because of the travelling conditions they had to endure. It is consoling that, before the negotiations had been entered into and completed, steps were taken to modernise the boats and that they are now something to be proud of.

One would express the hope that we might have some control over the link with this particular service on the other side—the Irish Mail. There, again, we have had criticism about the conditions that exist, especially for family parties. With the development of our economy, we can expect that the emigration figures will decline. We hope that the figures showing the inward trend will be greater, in view of the development of tourism.

An attempt has been made by a group of enterprising Irishmen on the other side to introduce a coach service between some of the centres in Britain and this particular cross-Channel service. The case was at hearing last year—I do not know if it was completed. Representations were made to the Department of Transport and Power and to Bord Fáilte to support the project so as to facilitate people of Irish birth with families who have not visited this country for years because of the hazards they might have to endure by travelling on that particular route. For that reason, it was proposed to provide a coach service between British centres and the boat so that such people would not have to travel on the Irish Mail. I take this opportunity of asking the Minister to support any effort on the other side in that respect. It is well worthy of support and would be of benefit to this country from the point of view of our own people coming back and the number of tourists who might be prepared to avail of the service.

I welcome this proposal by the Government to take over the B. & I. I shall go so far as to say that I think it is one of the best things done by any Government since this State was founded. Over the years, the cross-Channel service between Britain and Ireland was monopolised by the LMS and the B. & I. The result, in the past ten years, has been that cross-Channel freights increased, I think, between 70 and 75 per cent.

The Minister said that the B. & I. will be operated strictly on commercial terms and with that I agree. However, he spoke also about anything that would damage the legitimate interest of Coast Lines. Last year, the B. & I. profits were down tremendously —£2,000 in comparison with £130,000 six or seven years previously. The B. & I. were a subsidiary of Coast Lines and these profits could be accountancy manipulations. If, as I gather, the Government have made an agreement with Coast Lines to continue this monopoly, what advantage is it to this country? B. & I. were bought for the purpose of benefiting this country, to try to stop the upward spiral of freight rates. During the past ten years, there has been an increase of 75 per cent in freight rates due to this monopoly and that is out of all proportion.

The Minister said that before the investigation into the affairs of the company, the profits were £184,000 but that they came down to £2,600 during the investigation. It is quite obvious this again was due to a manipulation of figures. If the Government are not now prepared to break this monopoly, they might as well have left the B. & I. with Coast Lines. Three directors have been appointed to this board and three others remain to be appointed. I sincerely hope that among them will be a nominee of the livestock trade because more than 50 per cent of B. & I. income will be from the livestock trade.

There was universal welcome throughout the country for this Bill. There has been considerable public demand for many years to have something done to get us into the cross-Channel passenger and freight trade. The suggestion was that Irish Shipping should enter this sphere of activity but when the Government decided to purchase B. & I., their move was universally welcomed as being even better than the original suggested idea.

Our successful State companies, CIE, Bord na Móna, Comhlucht Siúicre, Aerlínte, Aer Lingus, have been given Irish names—pronounceable names in the Irish language, I mean. It is to be hoped that when the Government come to give a name to this cross-Channel passenger and freight company, they will see to it that the name is an Irish one in the Irish language. The excuse that it would not be good for trade or commerce to have to trade in a language which the commercial world or the tourist world do not know cannot stand up to examination in view of the tremendous success of other State companies, particularly Aerlínte and Aer Lingus in their transatlantic services.

Another point which concerns me is that we have gone to a tremendous amount of trouble to equip ourselves in this part of Ireland with two excellent shipyards, one in Cork and one in Dublin, and I hope the Minister and the Government will make every effort to ensure that when the new board take over and when replacements or repairs are necessary to the company's vessels, they will be carried out in Irish yards. I was particularly interested in the references to the possibility of further improvement in the services on this route and I suggest that an examination should be made of the possibility of having daylight and Sunday services.

Hear, hear.

Several people in the north midlands of England have brought to my attention the need for such Sunday night services from Liverpool to Dublin and vice versa. A considerably greater number of people would be in a position to get to Dublin for three and four day holidays quite often or for weekend holidays. I hope some consideration will be given to this when the board come to examine the improvements necessary in existing services. The Bill is very welcome and I have no doubt that Seanad Éireann will give it its approval.

I wish to congratulate the Minister on his presentation of the Bill. He did good work in negotiating the purchase and in arriving at the proper price. Senator McGuire stated that the Bill had been favourably received in the Dáil and that it is not for us to criticise it here. It was also very favourably received throughout the country because the people feel they now have some control over the B. & I. and that therefore the services will be greatly improved not only in the facilities for passenger transport but also the transport of industrial and agricultural exports. I join with Senator Prendergast in asking that a representative of the livestock traders be appointed to this board, since the transport of cattle from this country means so much to the economy of the country. Cattle dealers are entitled to have representation on the board. There is nothing further for me to say except that I believe this Bill will benefit the country in general.

The acquisition of the B. & I. is a welcome step and we all congratulate the Government and others concerned in the negotiations in reaching a successful conclusion. The picture given by the Minister is a very comprehensive one. I think the picture cannot hide the fact that the profits have been going down steadily. In fact, if provision were made for depreciation the services would actually be at a loss. Consequently, there is need for very careful reorganisation and, above all, a very efficient board of management is required. I think basing this board on representatives of the cattle trade, and so on, would be a wrong approach. What is needed is technical competence, sales efficiency and organisation. The board should be largely based on that. They are charged with conducting the service without subsidy and, in that way it is a business undertaking in every sense.

I should like to know whether there is a possibility that rather than having a separate company the B. & I. should be amalgamated with Irish Shipping Ltd. It would seem that the two organisations have many things in common. They certainly should have the same specialist staffs to deal with common problems. In fact, it looks as if they could be amalgamated now, or later, into a single company. It seems that passenger sailings to and from England are suffering badly from air competition. I think that is likely to increase in the future. Therefore, unless something imaginative is done, it is hard to see the decline in passenger numbers arrested.

I wonder whether there are possibilities for round the coast sailings, say, from Dublin to certain parts and back again, something akin to sailings in Continental countries. Admittedly, they may be in more sheltered waters but the ships acquired at least have the ability to ply successfully and comfortably around our costal waters.

I should like to refer to the development of the container traffic and to inquire whether there has been any possibility of drive-on lorries, and so on.

There are one or two points arising out of the Bill itself to which I should like to refer. I am at a loss to know why, on the question of the constitution of the company, the number of directors in section 8 is not specific. It says they shall not exceed seven. I should have thought it would be more reasonable to specify a fixed number. But the whole chestnut is in section 13, which specifies that any director of the company nominated for election to either House of the Oireachtas shall cease to be a director of the company. This provision came in very gradually. In certain of the major companies— Radio Éireann or Telefís Éireann—it was thought that a director might be able to use influence at elections, having some access to a publicity medium such as Telefís Éireann. Surely the same type of consideration does not apply to a director of a shipping company. I should have thought that this apartheid should not be continued.

Perhaps, there is room for disagreement with the Minister that when a person is nominated he should not be eligible for a seat in either House of the Oireachtas and on the board of the company. I do not see anything against it and I think the House would be enriched by having amongst us directors of successful companies. Indeed, that applied to Bord Bainne which is one of the few State organisations whose directors can sit in this House. I think we must ask the Minister to reconsider section 13 by Committee Stage. This has gone too far and we cannot afford, having regard to the limited pool of talent available, to make all these exclusions from the Houses of the Oireachtas. I appeal to the Minister to reconsider this and I hope to table an amendment for Committee Stage.

I shall conclude by appealing to the Minister to select the board solely on the basis of technical competence and not to include only representatives of interests concerned. I would also ask the Minister not to have concern for the political affiliations, existent or non-existent, of the members. Suitability and efficiency is the criterion for this organisation because the work is uphill and it will be difficult to ensure that it will survive as a commercial undertaking. Certainly, it will have to get massive injections of capital in the future when new ships are called for. If it continues as it has been up to now, it will have difficulty in surviving and I cannot see it aiming at survival and, at the same time, making realistic allowances for depreciation and replacement of ships when the need arises.

I wish to thank members of the Seanad for the very enthusiastic way they have welcomed this Bill. Senator McGuire spoke about the poor cross-Channel passenger services. I think at this stage it would be wrong for me not to mention the fact that ever since 1960 British Railways has been steadily improving their services originally under the guidance of Sir Reginald Wilson, Chairman, London Midland Board, followed by Mr. H. C. Johnson, and with the help and enthusiasm of Dr. Beeching who has been a visitor to this country on numerous occasions.

There have been continuous improvements in that service, which have been climaxed by the rehabilitation of the second class accommodation of the Hibernia and the Cambria. These improvements bring the accommodation up to the levels expected. I mention that because it is only fair to speak of some of the competition facing the B. & I. After a long period of indifference, as Senator McGuire mentioned, they have started to look to the Irish Sea services. One of the reasons for this is the wise appointment of a Manager for the whole of the British Railways Irish Sea services, Mr. John Bustard who is extremely efficient. Through pressure from my Department and from Mr. Lemass when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce and Bord Fáilte, British Railways have got cracking on improvements encouraged and directed by Dr. Beeching. The B. & I. now enters the scene with a new Board and we can expect more improvements in the future.

Senator McGuire spoke about the commercial aspect of the B. & I.'s operations. Of course, there will be normal healthy competition between the B. & I. and the other services in the matter of freight rates and in the matter of the efficiency of the service, its speed and speed in handling at either end. There will be normal and healthy competition within the framework and the objective of the duty of B. & I. to pay a dividend on the shares owned by the Minister for Finance. I cannot put it any more clearly than that.

Senator Mooney spoke about the question of certain coach tours which might come to this country with the B. & I. service. All I can say to him is we adopt very reasonable rules in licensing foreign tours which come here and there has been a great increase in that traffic.

Senator Ó Maoláin referred to the name of the company. I consider it is best to keep the name B. & I. for the present because it is so well known. At this change over it will be just as well to maintain the traditional name and then the board can consider later providing an Irish name for the company. Until their reorganisation plans are complete, for the sake of continuity of the name amongst the English public, it will be just as well to keep the name that way. We can make a change later and see that this company follows the precedent set by other State companies, as stated by Senator Ó Maoláin.

Senator Quigley and Senator Prendergast spoke about having someone to represent the agricultural interest and I agree with that, but all the directors of the company should be men of experienced business qualifications. If somebody whom I appointed happened to know a lot about farming, that would be all to the good, but each person appointed must have business efficiency as one of the capacities for serving as director on the board. I think I will be able to satisfy Senator Quigley and Senator Prendergast on this.

They will be all duds.

We will find somebody experienced in commercial business who would also have a knowledge of farming.

Cattle dealers have a business knowledge.

I was speaking about trade and its distribution and of knowledge of how to run a company with a very large turnover. Senator Quinlan referred to the possibility of Irish Shipping Limited and the B. & I. being run under one administration. That, again, would be a matter for the board. From what I know, the techniques of operation are very different for the two companies. It is difficult to say whether there could be any joint administration. It has already been pointed out that one of the directors of Irish Shipping has been made chairman of that company and he is also a director of the B. & I. There will be plenty of opportunity of sharing advice and knowledge from the two companies and of examining that possibility.

Senator Quinlan mentioned the increase in air passenger traffic across the Irish sea. He is right in that. The increase is growing all the time and the number of people carried by air across the Irish sea is 38 per cent to 41 per cent of all the passengers carried. It is growing at the rate of one per cent. That is a challenge to the B. & I. and British Railways to provide as comfortable a service as is possible.

The Senator also mentioned coastal tours. It will be up to the B. & I. to examine whether it will be profitable and desirable to undertake such tours. Senator Quinlan also mentioned the question of the number of directors. I understand, for administrative reasons, one must say up to seven directors. If there were a fixed number the board could not carry on if there was a vacancy unfilled. It is a purely technical matter and it is intended, in the ordinary way, to have seven directors.

Senator Quinlan also raised the question of the members of the board who become members of the Oireachtas having to resign. We could enter into a long discussion on that. I can see the issue raised by him and in a small country like ours it is, perhaps, unfortunate but most parties agree that section 13 is essential to the Bill. There could be all kinds of undesirable repercussions. So a person may not remain a director on the Board and become a T.D. It cannot arise under this Bill. This control and prohibition is there for all State companies. I cannot change it unless there is a change in the principle underlying the decision that has been made by the Government in this regard. One could easily argue that in some Scandinavian countries civil servants can be Ministers for a period and go back again to being civil servants. They have never been accused of taking advantage of their position as Ministers when they went back to being civil servants nor have they taken advantage of being civil servants when they were Ministers. I cannot argue any further on this point because the principle cannot be changed.

I think I have answered all the questions which were posed by Senators. Again, I thank the House for their courteous and enthusiastic reception of this Bill. There is one more very important question I have to answer and that is one of the Senators suggested that the decline in the profits of the B. & I. had been due to some possible manipulation of the accounts. I want to make it absolutely clear that the expert accountant we appointed to examine the accounts is satisfied that there has been no manipulation whatever. Coast Lines have not subsidised the accounts of their subsidiary, the B. & I. nor have they extracted money which should be placed to the credit of the B. & I. I have to rely on our expert accountant, who has examined the audited accounts of the company, and be satisfied with that. It is wrong to suggest because freight rates have gone up so much there must be something fishy about the decline in the profits of the B. & I.

It will be up to the board of the B. & I. to increase the productivity of the company and to reorientate its attitude towards its operation so as to satisfy national requirements. I am hopeful the dockers will co-operate with the management and that there will be good communication and good understanding between the board and the staff. As was said by Senator McGuire and Senator Ó Maoláin I hope the B. & I. will become, during the course of the next five years, the Aer Lingus of cross-Channel shipping services.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Next Stage?

We would like the remaining Stages now. I think there is agreement between everybody about this.

I do not want to hold up the Bill. The Minister has indicated he is not in a position to do anything about this section. I think it is a pity. We should try to open membership of this House to as many as possible. I would welcome it if civil servants could be Ministers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will now take the Senator as having spoken on section 13.

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