Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jun 1965

Vol. 59 No. 1

Trustee Savings Bank Bill, 1965: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Haughey)

The trustee savings banks, although they are private bodies, are supervised by the State in accordance with the provisions of the Trustee Savings Banks Acts. The Trustee Savings Banks Act, 1863, which was a consolidating measure is with certain amending Acts the governing statute. The legislation was brought up to date in certain respects by an amending Act passed in 1958.

Since then the Banks have asked for further changes in the law to free them from certain administrative difficulties and to enable them to develop further in the interest of the community generally. I am satisfied that in the light of present day conditions it is desirable to concede these facilities which is what the present Bill proposes to do. The explanatory memorandum explains in detail the various provisions of the Bill which include such matters as the permitting of payments to third parties and of payments on production of passbook without recourse to the ledger, the provision of home safes, the admission of boys'clubs as customers, and so on. The granting of the additional facilities to the Banks should not reduce the security of depositors.

There are five trustee savings banks operating in the State—in Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Monaghan and Limerick. They were all founded between 1816 and 1820 and since then have made a valuable contribution to the development of thrift. I would like to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the work done by them in the field of saving. Their net deposits have increased from £12 million in 1958 to £19½ million today. I hope that the additional facilities provided for in the Bill will allow for the further development of the Banks.

Mr. O'Quigley

This is a Bill which makes a few amendments, not of very great significance in principle, but which will facilitate, as the Minister has indicated, the operations of the Trustee Savings Banks. These Acts apparently have been in operation for quite a considerable time and were evidently consolidated in 1863. When I was looking up the 1863 Act, I was appalled to see provision that in the case of Savings Banks sending out rules for examination by counsel, counsel was only entitled to be paid a fee of not more than one guinea. I did not pursue my enquiries into the provisions of the 1863 Act any further. I do hope if there is a consolidation measure in the offing that that particular provision will be taken care of and that the maximum will be increased somewhat.

It struck me, upon reading this particular Bill, as an ordinary member of the public with some interest in the amount of savings, that I was not aware to any great extent, from advertising or from any other form of activity, of the extent of operations of these banks. It may be that this is one of the lights that shine under the bushel and about which we do not know enough. I would hope that section 3, which is designed to give the Trustee Savings Banks a little more scope in their activities, will be fully exploited by them. It seems from the explanatory memorandum that this Bill will be directed more to providing safes and things of that kind to encourage saving. If as appears to be the position, these banks have deposits amounting at the present time to £19,500,000, as compared with £12,000,000 in 1958, they should make a greater effort and, if necessary, provision should be made by legislation to enable them obtain the finance necessary to effect their contribution to the savings movement which is so necessary at the present time.

There is just one small matter that occurs to me on section 2 of the Bill and that is the dispensing of the requirement that the depositor's book must be produced when deposits of small amounts are being withdrawn. I am not sufficiently familiar with the operation of the banks to know whether this could be done by an order or something in the nature of the cheque which is used by the commercial banks or whether, in fact, you can take a depositor's book and go in and say I am entitled to draw £10. It may well be that something of the equivalent of a cheque which is used in the commercial banks or some kind of order signed by the depositor might be a means of freeing some of the restrictions which would make trustee saving banks a more acceptable form or means of saving by the person with a small amount of money. I wonder whether this facility is envisaged in section 2 of the Bill. Apart from these observation, the Bill is one which will commend itself to the House.

Mr. Haughey

If the provision restricting the counsel's fee to a guinea had the effect of putting the Senator off and thereby presumably restricting discussion on this measure, it is not something I would be inclined to tamper with. With regard to the question of cheques, this matter has, in fact, been considered and I suppose it is true that it would be a facility and would facilitate persons having accounts in savings banks but I am told it would be quite an expensive procedure. Investigations in Great Britain have shown that it would probably cost as much as 2/-per transaction. In that event, its usefulness would be comparatively slight. Of course, the reason the ordinary commercial banks can give cheque facilities at such areduced cost is because of the clearing house arrangements. This, of course, would not apply in the case of the Trustee Banks. I agree fully with Senators in the necessity to encourage savings in any possible way we can. I know all bankers are traditionally distrustful of appearing to compete with each other for deposits. Probably the Senator is right when he suggests a little more effort might be made by these savings banks to encourage greater saving and more deposits. I have no doubt they will consider it.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.