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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Jul 1965

Vol. 59 No. 6

Finance Bill, 1965 (Certified Money Bill): Second Stage (Resumed).

Question against proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I was anticipating coming here this morning to talk about education. I thought that the atmosphere might be something like that of a summer school, because I understand I am not the only person connected with education going to speak this morning. On the whole, what I had to say about the free trade area and so on, I shall leave with what I said yesterday, and continue now with what I was speaking about, which, as I propose to show, is nevertheless not entirely unconnected with the question of whether we link up more closely with one of our chief neighbours in Europe.

The point I had just reached last night was a quotation from the speech of the Minister for Education on the introduction of his Estimate in the Dáil. I now quote from page 3 of the English translation. This speech contains—and I salute the fact that it should do so—a number of things about which he is actively concerned. One of them, I am glad to see, is— and here I quote—"the effort directed mainly towards getting rid of the larger classes in Dublin city." This seems to me to be a matter of capital importance—the large classes in our primary schools, particularly in Dublin, and also in Cork and some other urban centres.

I should like to ask the Minister for Finance, who is before us today representing the Government, what are the present facts about over-crowding of national schools in Dublin? Arising out of my intention to bring the matter up on the Appropriation Bill, I wrote to the Minister for Education last week asking for the facts, as far as he knew them, about over-crowding in Dublin schools, how many classes had over 40 and less than 50 pupils, how many had over 50 and less than 60, and so on. I also asked how many class-rooms there were containing two or more classes being taught simultaneously by different teachers. My hope is that the Minister for Education will have supplied this information to the Minister for Finance who will thus be able, in reply to this varied debate, to give us the present facts about over-crowding in the schools about which the new Minister for Education is quite rightly concerned.

In this connection I want to quote what I think is a highly significant and representative example of previous efforts to find out the facts. It is of prime importance in relation to the whole educational system to find out the facts as to what the over-crowding situation is. I refer to a question put down by Deputy McQuillan as he then was, on 17th July, 1956, in which he asked the then Minister for Education under the Coalition Government:

if he will state (a) the number of school classes in Dublin which contain (i) more than 40 and less than 50 pupils, (ii) 50 and less than 60 pupils, and (iii) 60 or more pupils; (b) the number of class-rooms which contain more than (i) one class and (ii) two classes, and (c) the number of class-rooms which contain more than (i) one teacher, and (ii) two teachers, teaching simultaneously.

That is a question to which I should like an answer today. I should like to know the present facts. The reply made by the Minister—this was Deputy Mulcahy at the time—was

...these particulars could not now be collected as all the schools are closed for summer holidays.

This was 17th July, 1956. Deputy McQuillan who, as you may perhaps know, is a fairly persistent person, persisted with the question and by way of supplementary question asked whether if he repeated the question in the autumn, he would get an answer; and the Minister replied:

...if the Deputy repeats the question in the autumn when the schools reopen, the information can be collected.

On 25th October, that is to say, three full months later and well into the autumn, Deputy McQuillan repeated the question. The answer then, by the same Minister, was:

I am arranging to have these particulars collected from each of the schools in the County Borough of Dublin. When the particulars are available the information requested by the Deputy will be furnished to him. The information will relate to the position on 1st October, 1956.

That seems to me a not unreasonable reply. However, no such information was, in fact, in the event, "furnished"—in the Minister's phrase—to the Deputy.

Some months later the Coalition Government were replaced by the Fianna Fáil Government, and another Deputy, whose recent loss to the Dáil is the most serious loss the Dáil has had in its whole history, Dr. Noel Browne, asked a similar question on 20th March, 1958—this was nearly two years after the first question and after the Minister had said the facts were being collected and would be furnished to the Deputy. By this time the present Minister for Finance, who is before us now, was Minister for Education, and his answer to the same question, on 20th March, 1958, was this:

The returns furnished annually by the managers are not in such a form as would permit of the statistics requested by the Deputy being compiled. Their compilation would involve the obtaining of special returns——

—which, incidentally, his predecessor had said he had taken steps to have made——

—from all the schools in the County Borough of Dublin which would entail the expenditure of an inordinate amount of time and work both on the part of the school managers and the officers of my Department.

He conceded one piece of information which was, that the average number of children in classes in Dublin national schools—the average number —was 47 children. This reply seems to me to be a deeply disappointing one and it could be put more briefly: "I do not know the facts, and I do not intend to find them out". That is pretty well what the Minister was then saying. Yet the Minister's predecessor, two years before that, had said the facts were being collected and could be furnished.

Dr. Browne was also a persistent Deputy, and a month later he asked a simpler and shorter question, on 30th April, 1958:

What is the highest number of pupils to a class in Dublin and the number of schools in Dublin with 50 or over in a class.

The Minister for the Gaeltacht, for the Minister for Education, replied to this question that he had nothing to add to the previous reply.

I am still hoping to hear what the facts are. I know the present Minister for Education is concerned about this. I am also convinced that his concern is not just an empty phrase, and I am entitled to assume that, not only from various pieces of evidence that have been before us, but also from something he says himself on page 25 of his speech introducing the Estimate:

I am, accordingly, arranging to set up within it a Development Branch headed by an additional assistant secretary. The function of the new Development Branch will be to assemble statistics regarding existing facilities and other matters

and so on. So that, this Minister is genuinely concerned to assemble the statistics. These will include, I am quite certain, statistics as to overcrowded classes. I think this is excellent, and I also think that it is about time. I think it extraordinary that successive Ministers for Education have been so reluctant, probably so ashamed, to tell the public just what the position is with regard to overcrowding of classes in the schools in the city of Dublin and, in particular, of course, the poorer areas, because the poorer school children are inevitably the ones that are most overcrowded in Dublin schools; and successive Ministers for Education knew that and the present Minister for Finance, who was a Minister for Education, knows that.

I do not know that. I know that our poor children are as well housed in schools as the well-off children.

In that case the Minister, in my opinion, is, shall we put it sadly but deliberately misinforming himself about the position.

I suggest that he go around some of the schools in the poorer areas where be will find quite a lot of segregation by wealth, even in national schools. I see children on the road in which I live going past a prosperous national school run obviously for the less poor children. I see children walking past it to a poorer school in Terenure although it would be obviously nearer for them to go in the gates of the school which appears to be, for some mysterious reason, reserved for more well-to-do parents. The Minister denies this. He declared in the Dáil that he did not know the facts about overcrowding and that it would be too expensive for him to find out, but he is quite prepared now to tell me that he knows all about it. I hope in his concluding remarks he will give actual figures about the present overcrowding as they have been asked for, so far in vain, since 1956. It would be about time, if he is so categorical about overcrowding, for him to give a clear answer about the facts and not be content to say that the overall average in the city of Dublin is 47 per class.

The Senator made an allegation that the poorer children were worse off in schools than the well-off. I deny that.

More overcrowded, I said. I repeat the accusation. The bigger classes are in those schools which receive a bigger proportion of poorer children. I see a link between the whole question of overcrowded classes—a very obvious link—and the harassed teachers in our schools. I remember being challenged by a national school teacher when I was actively concerning myself in this House about corporal punishment in schools, as to what I would do if I were faced with a class of 57. This was back in 1956, a period about which the present Minister knew nothing as far as overcrowding goes. I was asked: "If you were faced with a class of 57 twelve-year-olds and you had to teach them all the subjects and try to keep them in order, what would you do, Senator?" I said that I would probably hit them, but that I would be wrong; and it is wrong to victimise the children and to have them hit for the sins of society and for the sins of the Department and the Minister responsible.

If you ask any teacher to deal with a class of that size, you are giving him or her an impossible task, and I link this in my mind with something that has been said very relevantly by the present Minister for Education in page 24 of his speech:

Now that the Commission on Mentally Handicapped Children has reported to the Minister for Health the time is appropriate for the investigation of the needs of those school children who would not be classified as mentally handicapped but who are backward at school.

This is one of the major problems of the teacher in national schools, the fact that the range of ability in his or her class is so very great. Not unnaturally, the teacher with a class of between 50 and 60 tends to concentrate upon the brighter pupils, while other pupils who, as the Minister says may not be mentally handicapped but may be retarded or backward, are left in the back of the class. They tend to get, by the nature of things, more obstreperous and they tend to get more of the corporal punishment, either within or outside the Minister's regulations.

I am glad, therefore, to notice that the present Minister for Education is concerned to separate the pupils, and make some kind of provision for the better training of and for giving a fairer chance to the more backward children. This will be greatly to the benefit of such children, but it will also be greatly to the benefit of national teachers, who tend to be judged, most unfairly, on the overall results which they can produce from a class which contains children who should not be in that class. I would say there would be far less beating of children in Irish national schools if there were smaller classes, and if the backward children could be dealt with separately. I should hate to think that the pictorial symbol of Irish national school education would be a picture of an adult beating a child with a stick. This does not seem to me to be a nice picture. I do not think it ought to be our symbol, nor do I think that if that adult is dressed in clerical garb, the picture is made any more attractive. It makes a picture in my mind of which I as an Irishman feel ashamed.

A relevant point I want to make is in relation to a case which was heard in the Dublin courts not so long ago. A small boy took an action against a teacher. A doctor appeared on behalf of the small boy and gave evidence that the boy had ten deep weals across his back and that the doctor himself had rarely seen a case of such strong beating of a child. The boy was aged 7½. He was said to be "a very bad boy". The clerical manager of the school, Canon Troy, came into court and gave evidence of the singular turpitude of this 7½ year old. The judge, in tones which appeared rather gruff, told the small boy to stand up in the witness box so that the jury could see him. The small boy's answer was disconcerting. He said: "I am standing up, Sir." He was a tiny child. He was not a very bright child and he got ten lashes with a stick across the back producing ten weals which a doctor testified were as bad as any he had seen. Yet it took a Dublin jury only five minutes to decide that the punishment was "not excessive".

This is the kind of thing which stems primarily from overcrowded classes and failure to separate the not so bright children from the bright ones. It also stems from the fact that any claim of that kind by a parent is regarded as an insult to the clerical school manager. The mother in this case said that the manager refused even to look at the wounds of the boy. It was said in court that immediately he heard about the case, he suspended the boy, not the teacher, and told him not to come back to school. I wrote to the then Minister for Education. Dr. Hillery, to know arising out of this case (a) whether a school manager has the right to suspend any child from attending a school and (b) if he has, whether this would constitute a legitimate defence in case the parent was brought to court under the School Attendance Act. The Minister's reply — not the present Minister for Education, but his predecessor — to this general question as to whether a manager has such power and if so whether its use constitutes a legitimate defence under the School Attendance Act, was in effect: "As this case is sub judice, I cannot answer your two questions”. Yet again, I find it disconcerting to come thus up against such a wall of blank refusal to give information which, to me, seems to be legitimately requested.

I pass from that particular consideration and come now to the question of secondary schools. I notice again a reference here at page 7 of the Minister's speech. The increased numbers are commented on, and that increase is, of course, something of which we can all feel proud, proud of the fact that secondary schooling or post-primary schooling, if you like, is becoming available to more and more of our children. I quote the Minister:

The number of pupils on the rolls of recognised secondary schools is now almost 93,000 compared with 56,411 ten years ago.

This is obviously a trend that has not yet by any means stopped, and it is something the Minister does well to recognise. At the foot of the same page, he says:

The number of registered secondary teachers in receipt of incremental salary in the present school year is 3,964 compared with 2,478 ten years ago. In addition 325 teachers are being paid the special supplementary allowance for probationary teachers, making a total of 4,289 secondary teachers receiving salary direct from the Department in the current school year.

A query that comes to my mind in this connection is: How many other secondary school teachers are there? These are the teachers recognised formally by the Government, teachers earning increments. These are registered teachers. How many others are there? I do not want to suggest that any that are not recognised are not good teachers. I am fully aware, as the House is aware, that many teachers without full technical qualifications are absolutely first-class teachers, but I should like to know how many such there are. I suspect that many of them. who are not registered, are fully deserving of recognition and of incremental additions to their salaries. I believe the Department of Education make it unnecessarily difficult for a teacher to become a registered teacher. In the first place he has, of course, to have his degree. In the second place, he has to have a higher diploma in education, which is justified, and he then has to pass his Irish test, which I grant the Minister is a very minimal one; but then he has to find a school which has a sufficient quota at its disposal to take him on. Now this quota is related to the question of recognised pupils and a recognised pupil has to fall within a pretty narrow age-group, roughly between 12 and 18.

I should like to salute now, something that is mentioned by the present Minister at page 8 of his speech. He says:

With this in mind the rules for the payment of grants to secondary schools have recently been modified to allow of the payment of grants in all cases in respect of a recognised pupil who is following a course for a third year as a senior pupil.

The significance of that is that, for the first time, what one might call university scholarship classes, or the upper sixth, are being counted as recognised classes. That is a very good thing. This is due to the Minister's predecessor. and it is something to which the Minister rightly points. It means that what has been happening up to now cannot happen any more, that is to say, a first-class teacher will no longer find himself in charge of an upper sixth form and yet be without a sufficient number of hours teaching with recognised pupils to be paid his increments. Because up to now, the upper sixth was not a "recognised" class, he had not got a sufficient number of hours with recognised pupils to qualify for his increment, and sometimes the very best teachers had to be taken away from upper sixth classes because of this stupid regulation, the ending of which I salute. This change is certainly welcome.

I should also like to see a change at the other end. I should like to see it recognised that the teaching of children under 12 years is sometimes every bit as difficult, if not more difficult, and every bit as important as the teaching of children over 12. There are many secondary schools with preliminary and preparatory classes from 7 and 8 years onwards. Some of the incremental teachers having classes for such children cannot have these classes counted towards the earning of their increments. I put the matter this way: I think it is high time teaching in the junior sections of secondary schools gained recognition in relation to registered and incremental teachers. In the case of boys in particular, in some of the convent national schools there is a desire to see the boys moving on into the junior portion of a secondary school as early as the age of 7 or 8; but they will not there be counted as recognised pupils for the purposes of increments, or even grants, until they are 12 or over. We want, I think, a further change here, too.

I want to say something now about the reference on page 8 to the scheme of building grants. There has been a move forward—several steps forward and a few back—in relation to building grants to secondary schools. The giving of grants for building to secondary schools was hailed with great enthusiasm when it was first announced. Then we were told that these grants would be given only to schools with a minimum of 150 recognised pupils. For a school to have 150 "recognised" pupils, the school itself would probably have to be at least over the 200 mark. That meant, in effect, that the smaller schools, very frequently those most in need of help towards building, would get nothing at all under the new regulation.

I would ask the Minister for Education to re-examine this position. It is the small schools that will be hit, and a great proportion of these schools are either Protestant schools or Catholic schools run by lay Catholics. Many of them are extraordinarily good schools from the point of view of the quality of the teaching and attention to the individual. These small schools will be squeezed out by what seems to me a parsimonious regulation in relation to the giving of building grants to secondary schools. I see merit in the small school, even as small as 100 or 120 pupils. I cannot really believe that St. Enda's would have been a better school if it had had 200 or 300 pupils instead of the few dozen it did have. We must recognise, I think, that very frequently the small school can do something that an enormous school cannot. I recognise also that there is an optimum figure, but the optimum is not the maximum. I know also that in Northern Ireland the Government give a building grant of up to 65 per cent of the cost to secondary schools. This is something we could well imitate.

I should like now to draw attention to a United States practice. I know I am in a minority, but I regret the segregation by religious faith in our schools. In the United States they have separation of Church and State in relation to schools, and they regard it as better to have Catholics, Protestants, Jews and unbelievers taught in the same State or Municipal schools. This is good. If you want an integrated community in which adults will know and appreciate one another's merits, you will have to have a community in which the children of various faiths meet together in the schools. This may seem revolutionary, but, in fact, Michael Davitt, quite a long number of years ago, had a big controversy on this very matter with the Bishop of Limerick. In this controversy Michael Davitt was all in favour, for the sake of a united Ireland and a united Irish community, of separating the teaching of religion from ordinary education in the schools and of ceasing to have children segregated in schools by their faith. "Make no mistake about it, My Lord Bishop," he said, in effect, "democracy is going to rule in these islands." By "democracy" in this connection, he meant the uniting or coming together in the same State schools of children of various faiths and no faith. I believe this is something which will eventually have to be faced in Ireland. I mention it as a matter which seems to me to be of basic importance, in the knowledge that the Americans have applied this policy for many long years with sufficient success to ensure it at least some consideration by us.

The Minister also refers to "advances in educational thought". He is interested, as was indeed his immediate predecessor, in new ideas in relation to syllabuses and so on. He refers to the whole question of languages. He refers to the 4-week residential course in modern continental languages arranged in the Franciscan College, Gormanston, courses which are excellent both in their design and in their execution. On page 10 he says that meeting the cost of purchasing language equipment and approved language courses on tape and records has been introduced with effect from the beginning of the present school year. I recognise all this as being valuable and I link it mentally, as I am sure the Minister does, with what he says on page 22 and also on page 23 in relation to the whole question of the oral teaching of languages.

He asks on page 22 do they cater sufficiently, for instance, for the oral side of language teaching and, on page 23, he makes a similar point about the necessity for emphasis on oral teaching:

It is also my intention shortly to examine, in consultation with the schools and teachers, ways and means of further fostering competence in oral Irish at the intermediate, group certificate and primary certificate levels. I propose, in addition, to examine very soon the question of introducing oral tests in continental languages.

This is first-rate. It is 43 years overdue, but it is first-rate. In relation to the teaching of Irish, or the teaching of any living language, it is a truism to say that a major educational advantage to be derived from the learning of a language is the capacity encouraged in the child to throw his or her thoughts into another language and express them orally, not through syntax and grammar carefully learned, but orally.

I should go so far as to say that educationally one of the major advantages of learning Irish as a subject in Irish schools is not so much the awakening of interest in our Irish heritage as the teaching to Irish children of the capacity to throw their minds and thoughts into another tongue. Therefore emphasis on oral teaching is essential. I notice that the Minister says (a) that he will be concerned with this in relation not only to Irish but to all living languages. Surely he is dead right, and it is about time that such a policy was followed. I see that (b) he will be concerned with it not only in the Leaving Certificate but in the Intermediate and Primary Certificates as well. This is excellent and I look forward to results.

We must recognise that the approach of the Department towards their own examinations, the Intermediate and Leaving Certificates, conditions to a great extent the way in which subjects are taught. It is quite obvious that if you are preparing children for a purely written examination, and that you, as a teacher, will be judged on the written results, you may not find enough time to devote to the oral side of it. In other words, the examination gives an indication of the basic concern of the Department. For that reason, back in 1956, I put it to the then Minister for Education, General Mulcahy, that we should have oral tests in Irish and other living languages in the Leaving Certificate, the Intermediate and Primary Certificate examinations. The Minister's reply was highly disconcerting. He said that if we tried to have this it might be the last straw that might break the whole educational system. I am glad to say that portion at least of this last straw was subsequently applied in the Leaving Certificate, and that the educational camel did not have its back broken. I am glad to see that further portions of this "straw" are going to be administered, and that it will be at last found possible to examine children orally in Irish and in other living languages, not only in the Leaving Certificate, where Irish is the only language yet examined orally, but also in the other languages.

I should now like to put the question as to whether we are satisfied that the whole tone of our educational system is right and to suggest that, in my opinion, the emphasis is far too much upon the factual and not upon what I would call the philosophical. The question I would put is: Should we say to the children: "Learn it off and repeat it parrot-like" or: "Think it out." Do we want the children to learn it off or to think it out? Do we want them to learn things off by heart and become parrots, or do we want them to learn to think for themselves? I said, perhaps a little unkindly, on one occasion that we have the most successful educational system in Europe because its main aim is to keep children from thinking for themselves and that it is eminently successful in its aim. I should like to think that we are coming to the period when we want to encourage rather than discourage children in thinking for themselves.

I have looked at the sort of thing that comes up in this connection in practice. I see, for instance, that written text prescribed is perhaps half a book of Virgil's Aeneid; and a special edition is prepared. This edition contains notes so copious as to be equivalent to a key, but only half the book is prescribed and so only half the text has notes; the implication being that no child in his right mind would go beyond line 475 if that is the end of the part the Department have prescribed. There is not a single note beyond that line halfway through the book. What kind of an attitude is this towards education? What kind of encouragement is there for a child to have some initiative and go a little further? The actual notes, moreover, are almost a full key, which, instead of encouraging children to think for themselves, in reality encourage them, I am afraid, to learn parrot-like.

I look at the same kind of thing in regard to French, and I notice that there are duplicated copies of notes about French literature which you take down and learn off and regurgitate at the examination. I notice that the French poetry prescribed is almost without exception poetry of a patriotic or religious type. It seems that only that type of poetry is regarded as suitable for Irish children to know any-think about. I do not have to tell this House that this not only cuts out a great variety of French poetry, but also entirely cuts out a great number of French poets. I should like to think that we are becoming a little more mature and that we shall be a little less selective in future.

I should say something very brief about the teaching of history. Here I think there is progress; there is certainly concern in the Department, and I know also among teachers, that the kind of history taught in many schools up to now must be modified, because what has been taught is the kind of history that suggests that no Irish patriot throughout all our history ever had a fault and that no Irish enemy ever had a virtue. That kind of teaching of history is dangerously false. We must reassess the setting down of the facts of history and, I suggest, encourage our children to think about it as well as note it down. In one of the history books used in secondary schools, I notice there is quite a bit about James Connolly, but no mention of the fact that he was a socialist. That is the kind of teaching of history which is highly selective, and I do not think it fits in with the new scheme of things as adumbrated by the new Minister for Education.

I also notice, and I was particularly struck by this, that he has frequently referred to his desire to consult with all the people interested and involved in education. Here also it seems to me that he is expressing something that should be hailed. In his own words he is looking for more expeditious means of consultation and so on. He says again: "The ideal would be for the various educational interests from primary school to university to form a consultative representative body in which Ireland's particular educational problems. ... could be regularly discussed." This again is admirable. I express the confident hope that the Minister will not forget that children as well as having teachers and spiritual. mentors also have parents.

He says: "This is an idea which I throw out here to interested parties." He goes further when he says: "It is my intention that there should be frequent discussions with the parents with respect to the progress and aptitude of the pupils." In the next paragraph he says: "The arrangements for the management of these schools which consists of a committee"—this is in relation to the new comprehensive schools—"which will comprise the bishop's nominee, the Minister's nominee and the Chief Executive Officer's nominee of the local vocational education committee"—he hopes this will prove a good system "as I believe it will". I should like to see a little more direct reference to the parents.

One of the last speeches I made in the Seanad in 1961 was in favour of a motion that the Minister for Education might be asked to take fostering action for the setting up of parent-teacher associations in relation to primary schools. The Minister, Deputy Dr. Hillery, while far from unsympathetic to the view, nevertheless made it clear that he was not going to take any active steps in the matter. The motion was lost by 26 votes to 11, though some Senators on the Government side voted with me on the question. I should like to urge the Minister not to forget the parents when it comes to consultation about matters educational.

The Minister also mentions a number of subjects he thinks must be extended. The compulsory core would include Christian Doctrine, Irish, English, mathematics and so on, to which there would be added physical training and I put in parentheses here the question of whether there would be organised games for which the Department would be responsible: as organised recreational facilities. I hope so. He also mentions civics. Here again he is quite right and his attitude is sound, because he says it need not necessarily be an examination subject. The whole spirit of civics should be inculcated throughout the school, and this I think could frequently be done by extracurricular activities—debates, games and so on. I remember being invited to Holland to an educational conference at which a discussion of civics was one of the subjects. I decided to do a little bit of amateur research before going there, to find out what kind of civics teaching was done in Ireland. I went to the Educational Company of Ireland and asked them for the standard textbook. I was told that there was not one, that there used to be one by Eleanor Butler but that this had long been out of print. I remembered the Rathmines School of Commerce, which has long had an excellent "day continuation school", thanks to the initiative of George Clampett who was Principal for many years. An aunt of mine, the late Mrs. Cruise O'Brien, used to teach civics there as well as her main subject, Irish, and did so very successfully. She encouraged children to have debates and hold mock elections, and go into the question of parliamentary democracy, and generally encouraged a great amount of interest in things of this kind. My own mother taught in the same school along similar lines. It occurred to me that I should go to this school and see what was still being done there.

I might say that in the Educational Company of Ireland one of the people there said to me, when I told him that I was going to this civics conference in Holland, "In Holland they know what it is and what it means. There are parks there with flowers and trees which are undamaged, because they do not suffer from the same vandalism as we suffer from in Dublin". I think that (a) this was right and (b) that we are slowly improving here in this respect. I went to the Rathmines school and asked who taught civics and I was told it was Father so-and-so, and that it was now a part of the classes in Christian Doctrine. It so happened that this priest was there that morning and I introduced myself and told him what I wanted. He could not have been nicer. He answered my questions about civics and brought me into the library, and said that they combined the teaching of civics with Christian Doctrine as part of the children's moral training. When I asked him if Jews and Protestants attended this class, he replied that they did not. What is the implication of that? Is it either that Jews and Protestants do not require to be taught civics, or that they are beyond redemption as far as civics go? He was kind enough to look for a book, which he said they did not use, but which when he showed it to me I found to my surprise had been published by the Educational Company of Ireland, although they had told me they had not got such a book. When I opened it I found that the first paragraph was about the King, Lords and Commons. I looked at the date, and it was 1912. I feel that this is an indication that the Minister is quite right to concern himself about the teaching of civics.

Just one final word on this question. This very kind priest told me—this was three or four years ago—that the Archbishop of Dublin had just issued a circular about the teaching of civics in vocational schools, and that he was sure I would find it of the greatest interest. I told him that I was leaving the following day, and although he tried to obtain the document, he did not succeed in getting it for me. Being a person with a curious turn of mind, when I came back from Holland, I wrote to the Archbishop's secretary and received a courteous reply from, I think, Father Martin, saying that as this circular was "confidential", it could not be given to me. I wonder if the Minister for Education has seen it. I am concerned about the teaching of civics and how it has been taught and I am glad to see that the Minister is similarly concerned. I agree with him that it is not so much what can be done or taught in school as what can be done outside classes in organised extra-curricular activities.

I have mentioned what the Minister said about the running of "comprehensive schools". I notice that the committee of management is to be composed of three people, the Bishop's nominee, the Minister's nominee and the chief executive officer of the local educational committee. This is a very good principle; it is extending the principle of representative management in relation to these new schools. This is an excellent idea and I should like to see some similar modification of the present application of the managerial system in primary schools also along these lines. I should like to see a greater representation of the ordinary people of the parish in the running of primary schools. I am not satisfied with our present interpretation and application of the old British Managerial Act which in practice means that the manager of every school is a priest, a parson, a reverend mother or a rabbi. I am not satisfied that this always produces the best results; in some it does, and in others it produces a situation in which the parents do not want to "bother" the school manager, or feel that he has too much on his hands, or in other ways the parents tolerate a degree of neglect which would not be tolerated in the case of a lay manager.

The system now worked out by the Minister, of three nominated representatives including the local authority representative, might well be introduced at an early date in relation to national schools, with great improvement to the general spirit and functioning of these schools.

I like to think that in this country in the educational system the liberal spirit is growing. Not only do I like to think it, but I do think it. I am convinced that the liberal spirit is growing both in the schools and outside them. Consequently, I hope that we can look forward to fruitful links not only with our nearest neighbour but also with Europe. In that, as I said yesterday, I largely concur in what Senator FitzGerald said, because I feel if a more balanced link with the outside world is established, if we were jointly to go into the Common Market, which I hope will not be monopolistic but liberal in a wide sense, economic as well as political and social, our participation would be more balanced, if we go in in common with Britain, than if we simply bind ourselves more closely to our best market and best customer.

In either event, I look forward to the increased links with Britain and with Europe at present adumbrated, but about the details and implications of which we have to be clear in our minds. I was disappointed that the Minister was not yet in a position to be clearer about that, but in relation to these new links, I should like to think that they would not be links which would destroy our own individuality for the sake of the moneybags and fleshpots, be they either of Europe or Great Britain. I should also like to think that we go in with some eye to our contribution as well as with an eager eye to "the benefits", the "erosion" of which the Minister bewailed in his earlier speech. I should like to think that we are going in not merely for what we can get out of such linking but for what we can give to it as well.

I look forward, therefore, to the broadening of our contacts with the outside world, and consequently to a broadening of our minds; and to this end education, our educational system, is basic, but it must be a broad, liberal education, based on the encouragement of thought in children, and not a narrow, take-it-down-and-learn-it-off, Chauvinistic or sectarian education.

My hope is that we shall soon recognise, by his positive measure, the new Minister for Education as the most imaginative, most dynamic, the most concerned Minister for Education about the fundamentals of education that we have yet had in the Department which, in my submission, have been for more than 40 years the slowest to move, and the most abjectly amenable to retrograde and obscurantist pressures.

I shall be very brief. I wish to raise a point on the Finance Bill, a very small but a very important one. I feel that the Minister, in closing the tax net on tax mitigation has included widows and orphans to too great an extent. The Minister is aware, of course, of this and during the course of the Bill's progress so far, he has made many changes. The changes are not adequate. Many principles are violated. Firstly, since the 1958 Finance Act the Minister has been encouraging and facilitating the provision of pensions. Income tax rebate has been given for this and by all means a man has been encouraged to provide for himself a maximum pension of two-thirds of his income when he is 65 years.

It seems strange that if a man is allowed to provide that much for himself when his family are settled, the provision of the Bill will militate against his settling a much smaller amount on his widow who may be left with the problem of rearing a young family. If one takes it down to basic facts, when a husband dies, all the widow is saved is his food and keep. She has lost the natural increase in a man's income from year to year and she is reduced to a fixed income and is absolutely defenceless against a rapidly rising cost of living.

I have tried to compare this Irish system with other systems and was amazed to discover that in England, where undoubtedly the taxpayers are suffering now the severest blows they have had to bear for many years, death grants of up to three years' income for the husband are free of death duty to the wife and furthermore that widows' and orphans' funds, especially annuities to widows allotted from pension rights, are still considered as separate estate and treated very much more gently than here. It was at this stage that I realised the Minister must be interpreting Article 41 of the Constitution in an odd kind of way so that this very high position that wives and mothers are presumed to hold in Ireland seems to mean to him a very lofty perch in the death duty bracket.

We have the problem that this may cause repercussions. I tried to get some estimate of how many pension schemes in this country affect widows. In the big organisations, the banks and the Civil Service and the various pension trusts, there would appear to be about 30,000 persons involved. If these 30,000 during the next few months realise they no longer have made the provisions they think they have, they will worry about it and will begin to think about putting extra by. The only way they can do that is by increasing their incomes and very shortly we shall have the big organisations coming, with a legitimate reason, to look for wage increases, a very undesirable thing in the present situation.

I thought I might be exaggerating this position in my own mind so I decided to take an illustration. I shall not give a borderline one but a good example—something the State would consider very eminently taxable. For the sake of the constituency, I picked a university graduate in his late thirties, earning a good salary of £2,000 a year, with a modest house and a car. He lives quietly. He has four children and he decides to put a good deal by for his wife so that if he dies, the youngsters will have the advantages he had of a university education and all that goes with it. He dies. His house and contents, even modestly valued nowadays, would run to £6,000. He has very good insurance, a lot of it placed, under advice, under the provisions of the Married Women's Status Act, and this comes to £20,000. That, with the car and savings, comes to £26,000.

That figure attracts death duty of £4,000 so that out of £20,000 liquid assets, the widow is now left with £16,000. By modern standards she is a wealthy woman. She invests the assets at 6 per cent and this brings in £900 a year. When income tax is deducted, the income is down to £820 a year. At this stage one suddenly discovers that widow and four children have less income than the Minister for Education pays to keep five children in an industrial school even though that widow started off as a wealthy woman. I cannot see how the Minister can treat this widow with £26,000 and four children, in such a manner as to bring her down to the state where their average income is below that paid to keep one child in an industrial school. There is undeniable evidence that this is wrong.

Yesterday we had a Social Welfare Bill and during its progress we found that the Minister for Social Welfare feels £1,200 is the present ceiling below which the State will have to provide help in the form of medical care and other benefits. Therefore, the Minister for Social Welfare feels that the widow whose case I have put is being hardly done by. We had the Succession Bill a fortnight ago and if one can judge by the pleas of the Minister for Justice, the chief offender will not be the husband who does not leave his property to his wife but the Minister for Finance who is reducing the income of that wife.

It gets even worse as one comes down the scale. The figure of £15,000 was introduced as a kind of level on which the Minister was salving his conscience. Below that figure, people needed help; above it, they did not. This has introduced a most extraordinary case. Once again, in regard to the widow with four children, if her assets taking in the house are just below £15,000, she will have to pay death duties of £350. If her assets are £1 above £15,000, she will have to pay £1,500, so that couple of pounds is going to cost her £1,150. This thing, to my mind, is going to bring in the greatest amount of temptation to fiddle. We will have all kinds of different valuations put in in the estate realisation to try to get the assets down below the £15,000. Therefore, this Bill is really very hard on young widows with families.

When one tries to assess why this is hard on young widows with families, one finds four reasons for it. Firstly, there is the enormous increase in house property valuation over the past couple of years. A very modest house and contents will now run to £5,000 or £6,000, particularly in the city zone. Consequently, a woman who has been left remarkably little—remember nowadays with family insurance a very small subscription will pay a reasonably good death insurance—will be moved, with this house property, from a reasonable tax bracket into an inordinately high one because of the value of the house. If the house is a three-bedroomed one, and she has four children, the house is no good to her because she cannot take in tenants. It will not buy food and clothing for her family. If she sells the house to buy a smaller one, by the time she has paid the fees she has not got anything out of it. Therefore, this house is really a liability.

This House makes this widow liable to tax she cannot afford. I feel this is a little bit unjust because the tax was paid earlier by her husband, when he was alive, and will be paid by her in the future. It seems rather difficult to have to pay this big sum because of the wrong valuation. I feel a fairer way of doing that would be if house property, to a certain limit, were exempt, or it were taxed on the valuation of the house rather than on its market value.

Secondly, I feel the death duty should perhaps follow the income tax law, that is, some figure should be fixed below which one is exempt. When reckoning income tax, the Revenue authorities say: "All right, you get so much personal allowance and so much for each child." In the case of the widow with four children, she gets £720 allowance. I cannot see why, if the Revenue authorities think it fair to have her with that much money before they start taxing her, why they do not think it fair for her to have the amount of capital that would bring in that income before they start to tax her. This is so, in actual fact, because, under present regulations, a widow with four children gets an allowance of about £720 which is the actual figure that £13,000 would bring in. The trouble is once you go above the £15,000 mark, you lose your allowance. I feel that, like income tax, death duty should only start above a certain figure and should be counted from that figure and not from the zero the Minister works on at the present moment.

Thirdly, I feel this section of the Bill is one of which we should be careful. It introduces a certain amount of retrospective legislation. When a husband is putting aside, monthly, moneys for his wife and children, he is giving to them moneys over which he has not got control and which he cannot get back because it has gone to them. It seems somewhat unjust that, years later, if he dies the Minister should be able to say: "We want so much back out of each of the monthly payments which were given to your wife." If she had actually been given the money, she would have put it away and there would be no trouble. I realise the Minister has made a small adjustment for this but it does not cover the actual facts. If the man had actually given the money to his wife, it would have been a gift to her. I feel, all in all, this section of the Bill is a little worrying. It can only be morally right if it is for the benefit of the State or is in retribution for some offence. I do not think many of these widows have been guilty of crime. I feel the Minister should be a little more generous with regard to this point.

The last thing I want to say is it seems very unfair to equate the estate of a man of 65 or 70, who is literally organising for his death, with the estate of a man of 35, who is really only preparing for contingencies. Under these sections of this Bill, there is no distinguishing point between these two. Consequently, the younger person is penalised to prevent the older person's attempt at tax mitigation. I appreciate that many of these points are points which can more properly be raised on Committee Stage but I would appeal to the Minister at this stage to go a little further in relieving younger widows and their families.

The Minister, in opening this debate, said the conjunction of the three Bills which we are discussing covered such a wide range that their introduction provided the opportunity for a comprehensive discussion on the economic and financial situation. Accordingly, I propose to take advantage of this and to speak about our present situation. My colleague, Senator Garret FitzGerald, in a very comprehensive speech, made an economic survey of the factors which had produced the present situation and of the possible course of action. My intention is to survey briefly the situation, to speak of the present position in regard to the Second Programme and then, rather than present broad views, to consider one particular aspect of the problem in detail. I propose to take the problem of manpower policy, to relate it to some of our present difficulties, and to indicate what I consider should be the direction of the decision which the Government must make quickly in regard to this most important subject.

The present position of our economy, if we look at the four most important elements, is as follows: firstly, our growth, which has been steady for a number of years, has faltered, not by much, but by something; secondly, in spite of the hopes expressed in the Second Programme, employment in the country is virtually static; thirdly, prices are running out of control; and fourthly, the balance of payments is under severe strain.

We have before us the Finance Bill and in that Bill is the legislative embodiment of the Budget which is itself the main instrument of economic policy at the present time. The Budget, of course, is not discussed in this House and this is the first opportunity we have to discuss what was in the Minister's Budget speech. I think it is unfortunate that at a time when the economy needs some control and needs some changes of direction in order to ensure that economic progress can proceed we have a Finance Bill before us today which seems to be more concerned with death duties on the middle classes and middle class householders rather than with such matters as a root-and-branch reform of taxation which might promote incentives and recover momentum in economic growth.

When we are looking at the Finance Bill and the Budget Statement of the Minister, of which it is legislative embodiment and which is now before us for the first time, our first reaction and our obvious comment must be on how out of date the Minister's Budget Statement is. Here we are discussing the Budget Statement for the first time and we find that in less than three months this vital statement, which was to indicate the direction in which the country should steer for a whole 12 months, is completely out of date and rendered obsolete by the speech made two months after the Budget Statement by the Taoiseach in Dáil Éireann. This is a serious thing for us at present and a serious thing for the future. If Budget Statements are out of date in two months there is something wrong. We have now reached a position where the main instrument of economic policy, which is to guide the economy for 12 months, has slipped so quickly out of date.

I do not want to dwell too long on that but I want to point out the complete contrast between some of the statements in the Budget and some of the statements made by the Taoiseach. I quote first from the Budget Statement —a statement which indicates the prospect for the year ahead—of the Minister for Finance on the 11th May, 1965, at column 963 of the Official Report. Dealing with the balance of payments which last year reached a figure of £31 million the Minister says

On the other hand, a smaller rise in imports is expected, leaving the balance of payments deficit at much the same level.

So, in his main financial speech of the year the Minister for Finance tells us he expects a balance of payments deficit of £31 million or thereabouts, of the same order as it was last year. I accept unreservedly that the Minister was not attempting to deceive the Dáil when he made that statement, but I do say it shows a dangerous lack of knowledge on the way the economy is going when we put that statement against the statement made by the Taoiseach when speaking two months later on the 13th July in the Dáil when introducing the Estimate for his Department. What the Taoiseach has to say in contrast to the estimate of the Minister for Finance on our balance of payments position is as follows:

Even if the situation does not get any worse than it is now, there seems likely to be in this year a situation in which the external payments deficit will be not less than £50 million, and it may be higher.

So determined was the Taoiseach to put over his point of view that a page later we find him repeating this:

Assuming there is no further worsening of our situation in the second half of this year—I must say quite frankly this is by no means certain —and assuming also a rise in our net invisible receipts this year of about £7 million—this can be presented only as an estimate but it is a well-informed estimate—our external deficit will, as I have said, be not less than £50 million and this may prove to be an optimistic forecast. There are indications that the trade gap could widen further before the position is rectified.

It seems to me that we have here a failure in economic planning. We have an estimate given on the most important financial occasion of the year, of £31 million or thereabouts and then we find two months later the estimate is £50 million. There is a failure here not only in economic planning but a failure in ability to forecast the trends of the 12 months following the Budget Statement. This is in a way symptomatic of the reliance the Government has placed almost since the beginning on what they like to term economic programming. They like to term it economic programming in contrast to economic planning which is, as Senator Garret FitzGerald pointed out, a much more disciplined thing. This situation which has arisen of a change within two months in regard to a most vital economic index is in keeping with the Government's attitude in economic forecasts and then keeping their fingers crossed and hoping these forecasts will be fulfilled.

It may be said that some of the difficulties which make the change between the statement of the Minister for Finance in May and the Taoiseach's statement in July could not have been anticipated. I think that not only should these difficulties have been anticipated but that they could have been anticipated. A great deal of the failure either to avoid what happened, or if it could not be avoided, to foresee what might happen and to react promptly to the difficulties, springs from deficiencies in the Second Programme both as drawn up and as published by the Government and, more particularly, from deficiencies in the manner of execution of the Programme.

Lest it be thought that this is an exercise in hindsight, saying now that the Programme has not worked out as it should, I want not merely to comment on what is apparent to everybody now but to go back and recall what I said in this House 16 months ago in a comprehensive review of the Second Programme and to recall comments I made then which have become of greater interest in view of the course of events since I made those comments. In the course of the speech which I made on the Second Programme on that occasion, I reviewed the outcome of the First Programme by way of preface to my remarks. I quote from volume 57, No. 9 of the Official Report of 18th March, 1964:

If we look at this First Programme in order to find a guide to the reliability of the forecasts in the Second Programme I fear we must conclude that the targets in the Second Programme will only be realised if similarly helpful circumstances arise.

Of course the situation is that circumstances have been becoming less favourable than they were during the First Programme. I think the Government were deluded by the success of the First Programme into thinking that they could automatically count on success in the Second Programme also, without taking further precautions.

We must recall the objectives of the Second Programme. There are three main objectives: firstly, a 50 per cent growth between 1960 and 1970; secondly, a reduction in emigration to 10,000 by 1970, which is equivalent to an increase in employment of 78,000, between 1960 and 1970; and thirdly, the paying of special attention to human investment. The situation now is that whereas the progress of the Programme to date has been relatively satisfactory in regard to the growth target but it has been far from satisfactory in regard to the employment target. The position is that, if we were to expect the normal progress between 1960 and 1970 in regard to the employment target of 78,000 new jobs, we would expect that something of the order of 30,000 of these 78,000 new jobs would have to be provided by the end of 1964. What is the position in regard to that objective? The position is that of these 30,000 new jobs— which would be the figure we would expect if steady progress had been made towards this objective—only 4,000 have so far been provided. Accordingly, in regard to this employment target of the Second Programme there is a very serious lag.

This point is clearly and graphically borne out in the Central Bank report which has just been issued. On page 52 of that report, there is a diagram which shows the projected growth in total employment and the actual growth. It is clear to anybody who looks at this report that there is a most disturbing contrast between what was hoped for and what has been attained. When we look at this particular figure in the report, we can see a clear failure to get off the ground in this respect. One would think that this was the plotting of the hopes of a man who attempted to fly by strapping feathers to his arms and the results of such attempts which were made around the turn of the century. There is a quite melancholy difference between what was hoped for in this respect and what has been achieved. This is not something which is marginal; it is something which is embedded in the Second Programme and is necessary if our economic progress is to show any gain at all and, particularly, if it is to show any gain at all in social terms.

Of course there is no doubt that implicit also in the employment target —and I dealt with this at length when speaking 16 months ago—unemployment should be reduced to 3½ per cent by 1970. This is part of the calculations which were made in the Second Programme, part of the data put into the computer to see if the Programme was a feasible one and to ascertain whether all parts were consistent with one another. What has been the progress in this regard? The situation is that in 1964 our unemployment figure was 5.7 per cent which was less than the bad year of 1963 but was still no reduction on the figure for 1961 and 1962. Unemployment in 1964 was 5.7 per cent—the same as in 1961—and yet the aim of the Programme is to reduce this figure to 3½ per cent by 1970. In this respect also there has been failure and a lag in progress. It is not a question of not going as quickly as was planned; there seems to be a stagnation or a stickiness here in regard to employment. There seems to be a threshold at this level of unemployment across which we are unable to travel in spite of the incentives and all the other elements of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. This is another point which I commented on in speaking of the Second Programme and I shall confine myself to the points I raised then. I might, in retrospect, say that on that occasion 16 months ago, I expressed the opinion, which is on record, that—looking at the Programme as drafted—I did not think the employment target would be reached. Unfortunately it looks now as if I was only too right in my pessimism in this regard.

A further point I mentioned at some length on that occasion 16 months ago was the position of the banking system and also the position of our external reserves and the operation of the banking system under this Second Programme. Again, I should like to remind the House of what I said on that occasion. I spoke of the financial operations which were involved and were implicit in the Programme, as drafted. I concluded as follows and I quote from the same volume at column 715:

Assuming that all this had to be handled through the commercial banks there would be a sum involved of £366 million and to finance this would require a capital inflow into this country over the decade of something of the order of £37 million per year. If we look at what has been happening in recent years in regard to capital inflow, we find very severe fluctuations but an average of about £24 million is coming in and I do not see any real sign of upward trend.

In his reply to the debate on that occasion, the Minister's predecessor did not think very much of my anxieties in this regard when he said, and I quote from volume 57, No. 10, column 885:

There has been a substantial inflow of foreign capital for some years past and there is no reason to believe that it will suddenly come to an end.

Of course, I had not suggested that the capital inflow would come completely to an end but I had suggested that a prudent basis for planning would be to allow only for a capital inflow of what had been the average over a number of years and that average was £24 million. That is what I said 16 months ago.

I now turn to what the Taoiseach said when speaking on this question of external reserves and capital inflow a few weeks ago in the Dáil:

Last year and in earlier years our external payments deficit was financed to a large extent by a capital inflow, and the net external reserves of our banking system rose last year by £5.2 million as they also rose in 1963 and 1962. This widening of our trade gap has taken place at a time when this capital inflow is already slackening. Our estimate is that it may run this year at a level of about £25 million as compared with £36 million in 1964.

It might be thought gratifying for me to find that in this critical year for our economy, the estimate now made by the Taoiseach of a capital inflow of £25 million stands in very close relation to the £24 million which I had suggested as a basis for prudent planning. I do not feel gratified. It is unfortunate that our capital inflow has slackened but it is still more unfortunate that the Government did not plan on the basis of the slackening which was a reasonable thing to foresee two years ago, and even more reasonable to foresee six or twelve months ago.

The final point to which I want to refer, and which I put forward in criticism of the Second Programme when I spoke on it on that occasion, is what I would refer to as the question of controls. In this respect, I am not referring at all to the question of controls in the sense of price control; in other words controls which restrict the liberty of individuals or groups in the community: I refer to control in the more technical sense of controls to ensure the stability of the Programme. I said, again talking 16 months ago, that I thought this was a vital problem in regard to the Second Programme and that one of the great deficiencies of the Second Programme was that while we have been presented with a Programme that was undoubtedly feasible, there did not seem to be any proper provision for coping with the problem of deviation from the predicted path. Again, I would quote what I said on that occasion, as reported at columns 717/8 of the Official Report, volume 57, No. 9:

Finally, I should like to bring up the question of control. We have here what is described as a Programme for Economic Expansion but it seems to me rather a prediction based on certain assumptions and that before it could be dignified with the name “Programme” it would have to indicate in some way the measures which are to be taken if it shows signs of missing any of the targets which are mentioned. It may be that this has been done in the drawing up of the programme and it may be the Minister feels he should not reveal what these studies have shown. It would allay my anxiety to some extent if the Minister were to state categorically that there has been an examination of the steps that would be taken and taken rapidly if these targets are not being reached. We know the perennial troubles which arise in this country. We know what will happen if our prices get out of control here at home, that we shall suffer in regard to our exports. This is something which can be seen and fairly well evaluated by means of the trade statistics which are available monthly and within a month. I should like to ask the Minister what are the sort of steps which would be taken. The failure to describe the procedure whereby this machine is to be controlled makes me rather doubtful of its ability to ride even a minor storm. Even elementary programming should include an analysis of possible deviations from the intended path and an examination of possible corrective measures.

I think that the failure to have a system of adaptation, some sort of self-correcting mechanism for rapidly dealing with deviations from the Programme, was the great failure of the Government in drawing up the Second Programme. Senator Garret FitzGerald underlined this in his speech here yesterday evening when he said that the Government had failed to take note of what was obviously a serious growth in a few months at the beginning of this year in the numbers of imported cars. Here was something which, quite clearly, could be seen from the trade statistics yet the Budget, which is supposed to be the great instrument of economic policy, ignored these increases and took no notice of that situation.

We have in the economic programme a very old-fashioned type of machine which does not seem to have the feed-back mechanism or the controlling governors which are essential in the operation of such an economic system. I think the Government are very definitely at fault and the reason why I have gone back to quote what was said on that occasion is to underline the fact that these are defects which should have been foreseen, that these are defects in the Second Programme which were pointed out at the time and of which I think more notice should have been taken.

The second great deficiency in the Programme, and again one which was pointed out not only in this House but elsewhere, is the failure, despite efforts in that direction, to get the complete involvement with the Programme of those who are concerned with the individual decisions down through the economy. This indeed is the subject of comment in the Report on Economic Planning recently issued by the National Industrial and Economic Council. I shall not weary the House now by quoting from it but Senators can read there for themselves the concern of the NIEC with the fact that the decision-making and the involvement in the plan have not gone down into the economy to the individual decision-makers at lower levels. This involvement of everybody in the plan, which was the great source of strength in French economic planning, is something, again, on which I think there has been a failure.

Here we find ourselves with this particular programme which has been operating for the past eighteen months. When we look at it, we find ourselves with the situation that growth has been satisfactory so far; that employment has been static and that prices have been out of control. When we look at this situation, I think we have got to ask ourselves several questions. There are many objectives of economic policy and it is extremely difficult to harmonise them all. I should like to confine my discussion on this point to what I think will be agreed are the three main objectives of economic policy and to discuss the way in which these have been harmonised up to now and perhaps could be harmonised more fully in the future.

I think we can take it that the three main objectives of economic policy are: (1) economic growth or a rise in the standard of living; (2) full employment, at whatever level we may define as that particular term, and (3) stable prices. Can these three objectives be harmonised? Can these three objectives of public policy be achieved simultaneously? The Second Programme is undoubtedly based on the assumption that they can. I think we should look at that assumption for a moment. If we look at it, the conclusion we shall come to is that these three objectives can be achieved simultaneously but only if certain precautions are taken, only if certain elements of planning are given proper prominence.

I suggest that the reason why, in the past few years, we have not achieved these three objectives simultaneously— we have achieved only one—is the fact that our planning has not been thorough enough, either in its preparation or in its execution. The Government have taken the attitude that in order to have economic progress we must have increased taxation. Indeed, in his political speeches for the past two years, whether in the House or in the country, the Taoiseach has attempted to make a political issue of whether the people are prepared to contribute the extra taxation to pay for this. As soon as we think in terms like this, I think a very serious question arises. We must ask ourselves what is the effect of increasing this burden of taxation.

There was a very famous study of this particular problem which was published in the Economic Journal, 1945, by the very eminent economist, Colin Clark, entitled Public Finance and Changes in the Value of Money. On that occasion he examined what had happened in the inter-war years in various countries. He came to the conclusion, on the figures available, that there seemed the clear indication that once the taxation of a country exceeded 25 per cent of its national income, certain forces were set in operation. During the inter-war years the result of these particular forces was that there was a general rise in prices, not immediately but within two to three years. Many people think the results of this study apply to the inter-war years only and that in the post-war years we have managed to solve many of the problems the economists and politicians were not able to solve in the inter-war years. The situation has not changed. Indeed, we have had a situation in which practically every country in western Europe had taxation going above this limit suggested by Colin Clark. It is interesting therefore to look at a small paper written by the same author in February, 1964 when he published as Hobart Paper No. 26, a small essay on “Taxmanship”. In this essay, Clark examined what had been the experience of Governments between 1953 and 1963. Again, the result of his examination was that there appeared to be a very definite relationship between a higher burden of taxation and a more rapid rate of increase in prices. I shall summarise the results of this particular study. When Colin Clark compared the increase in prices—the average percentage rise per year between 1953 and 1963—with the burden of taxation in the starting year, 1953, for the different groups of countries, he found as follows: When the taxation was less than 25 per cent of the national income, prices rose on average by 1.0 per cent per year; when the taxation burden was between 28 per cent and 34 per cent, the average rise for these countries was 2.7 per cent per year; when the burden of taxation, that is, total taxation over national income, was between 34 per cent and 40 per cent, the rise in prices was 3.3 per cent per year; and when the burden was over 40 per cent, the average rise was 3.7 per cent per year.

I do not want to suggest for a moment that this is conclusive evidence that the raising of taxation inevitably produces inflation and a rise in prices; but I think it is a very severe warning that the experence of post-war Europe has been that this is what has occurred. It may not be inevitable, but whatever was necessary to prevent it was not done in the countries of post-war Europe. If we wish to increase our burden of taxation, as I believe we must—I do not dispute what the Government seek to do in that regard—if we want to increase it temporarily in order to spark off true economic growth, certain things must be done. There have been omissions in regard to this. If we want to move towards higher rates of taxation, we are certainly going to move into a situation in which price control will be very much more difficult.

The history of this country in the past two or three years is a vindication of the empirical results which Colin Clark has published. What has been our situation in recent years? Our situation, unlike that of other European countries who have had to choose between full employment and stable prices, is that we have had neither. We have had growth in the past few years, but we have neither had full employment in any sense of the word nor have we had stable prices. There is no need for me to go over the facts of the situation in regard to prices but merely to recall that, even if we define full employment as the three and a half per cent unemployment to be attained by 1970—which is not full employment in the sense in which it would be used in any other European country—we are failing to move towards this particular figure.

We find ourselves in the position then that while we are getting growth, while we are taking certain measures in order to promote growth, if we look at these three objectives, in respect of which most European countries are achieving two out of three of them, we are barely achieving one. This calls for an examination of what is deficient in our programme and what must be done. I do not think there is any single simple solution. I do not think there is any one thing which we can point to as being something which ought to have been done and was not and is responsible for this situation.

There are many things which could be done. For example, one thing which must be examined in this country is a root-and-branch reform of our taxation system—a reform of our whole taxation structure in order to produce a system that will reward efficiency but will penalise as sharply as possible inflated costs and heavy overheads. I referred during the discussion on the Finance Bill last year to certain suggestions made by Professor Nevin in regard to this problem. I do not propose to discuss this in any detail today.

Another alternative is to intensify sharply the promotion of technological and managerial improvements by financial incentives, by education and by other means. This, too, is something which we could well tackle.

There is a third way in which we can seek to harmonise our three economic objectives, that is, through the promotion of an active, integrated and unified manpower policy. I propose to devote the remainder of what I have to say today to this problem of a manpower policy, not because I believe it is the sole solution to this problem of getting growth, employment and stability of prices but because I believe that without it, without an absolutely first-class manpower policy, we have not a hope in the world of achieving these three objectives at the one time.

I said I think we have a real need for a manpower policy. It is interesting that a manpower policy, or lack of a manpower policy, arises in the context of all three Bills before the House. The Finance Bill, which brings into effect the Budget, is before the House today. In this country at present, the Minister in his Budget Statement deals with both a current and a capital Budget. We can all remember the time when the annual Budget Statement dealt with the current Budget only. Deputy McGilligan introduced the idea of formulating a capital Budget as well as a current Budget. That practice was discontinued for some years when Fianna Fáil returned to office but it is now an essential part of the standard practice in the production of the Budget. Therefore, when the Minister gets up to speak about the state of the economy on Budget day and to indicate what should be done, he talks in terms not only of current expenditure but in terms of capital expenditure as well. I hope the day will not be too long delayed when the Minister's Budget Statement will contain three elements: a current Budget, a capital Budget and a manpower Budget. I believe that the day the Minister for Finance stands up in Dáil Éireann and produces a manpower Budget, however tentative it may be, as part of his speech on the state of the economy and as to how the Government intend to direct the economy during the coming year, we will have made a significant advance, as significant an advance as was made when we moved from a purely current Budget to one which was current and capital as well. This central problem of manpower resources, both the available resources and their proposed deployment, is something that cannot be ignored if we are to adopt either economic programming or economic planning.

The question of manpower policy arises also in the text of the Appropriation Bill which we have before us. This is the appropriate place where I should acknowledge my pleasure at the fact that the Government, following the general election, did appoint a Parliamentary Secretary to take charge of manpower policy. This, indeed, was an earnest that the Government realised to some extent how essential such a policy was. My fear is that they may not realise to the full extent the necessity for a manpower policy, the scope which is needed in a manpower policy and, above all, the fact that manpower policy must be a unified thing. So the most important thing which I will have to say in the course of my speech will be concerned with the administration of manpower policy. This is the key point. Of course, if we want to discuss how manpower policy could be organised, it is necessary to be absolutely clear on what it is and what its particular scope is. Of course, manpower policy is highly relevant to the Prices Bill which is before us today because it is generally agreed among all European countries that one of the great reasons for price rises in recent years has been the lack of equilibrium in the labour market. Here we are attempting to deal with a situation which has been produced by many factors, but a prime one among them has been, here as elsewhere, a lack of an active manpower policy.

I have spoken both inside and outside this House on the question of manpower policy and I have no apology to make for returning to the subject again at this particular time. Instead, the only apology I would offer is an apology on behalf of the Government that they have not carried their intentions in regard to manpower policy further and more quickly than they have. I want particularly to speak about manpower policy at this particular time because I think the Government will have to make certain very critical decisions in regard to manpower policy within the next few months. There has been a report by an inter-Departmental committee on the organisation of manpower policy and this report contains so many misapprehensions about the true nature and the essential functions of manpower policy that it is highly necessary that I should speak and, if necessary, with apologies to the Seanad, speak at length on this point because otherwise I would be failing in my public duty.

It can be fairly said that to omit manpower policy as a key element from the Second Programme was a blunder of the first order and I should like to say, as I have said in this House before, that every month's delay in making good that blunder is putting the Second Programme and the achievement of its objectives further into jeopardy. The position is that in Part II of the Second Programme which was published only 12 months ago there is virtually nothing beyond the listing of manpower policy as a good thing, as something which should be carried into effect as we moved towards full employment, and very little realisation that unless we bring manpower policy in straight away, we may never move towards full employment at all.

Lest it should be thought that I am being unduly prejudiced in this regard, it is only right that I should quote here what the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce had to say in a recent address which he made to the Institute of Personnel Management on 8th July and a large portion of which he afterwards repeated in the debate in the Dáil. What I should like to quote is what the Parliamentary Secretary had to say in regard to the Second Programme for Economic Expansion on manpower policy. What he had to say shows clearly that he quite realised the deficiencies of the Second Programme and quite realised what needs to be done. I was very happy when reading this to realise the extent to which the Parliamentary Secretary, since he had assumed office, had made himself master of the essentials but I fear that this may not be true of all his colleagues and it may not be sufficiently appreciated by the Members of the House here.

In his speech on 8th July the Parliamentary Secretary said:

It is easy to be critical now of the concept which permeated the above outline of the evolution of an official manpower policy in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, that is to say, that the creation of industrial employment would have to take priority over rather than be the objective of what were apparently considered to be the more sophisticated and leisurely elements of a manpower policy.

This is very true. It is easy to be critical now but we must remember that when I am critical now of the Second Programme and when the Parliamentary Secretary was critical of it in this speech of his, we are not talking of a document that was years old; we are talking of a document that was produced in July 1964. Only 12 months ago, Part II of the Second Programme was produced and what it said about manpower policy was indeed pitiful and showed complete failure to appreciate the essential importance of this key element in economic planning. Action has got to be taken now. I do not think that there is any doubt that action is going to be taken but this action has got to be of the right kind and, above all, this action has got to be unified and not piecemeal: the manpower policy which has to be produced, if it is to be effective in curing such difficulties as have arisen and to prevent further difficulties arising, must be a policy which is a policy of integration and not a policy of co-ordination merely.

I have been talking for quite some time now about manpower policy and I am sure some of my hearers are rather curious as to what I am talking about, so I should like to turn to the question of what manpower policy is, what can it do, how can it do it and how can it best be organised to do that particular job. I think I can do no better in this respect than to quote from the Report on Manpower Policy by the National Industrial and Economic Council which was published about a year ago. I quote from paragraph 6 on page 7:

Most Western countries' economic policy nowadays has at least three objects—full employment, a rising standard of living and reasonable stability in the value of money. These aims are difficult to achieve simultaneously. The order in which they are listed seems generally to reflect the priorities accorded to them. Increases in price level are often accepted as the lesser evil in order to avoid a policy which may lower the level of employment. The increasing emphasis being placed on the importance of an integrated manpower policy in economic discussion is a result of the desire to reconcile all three aims.

This Report goes on to discuss the various ways in which this can be done and I recommend it to the Members of the House who may be interested in this particular topic. It shows a complete appreciation of the key importance of manpower policy. It is important to realise that this was published at the same time as the Second Programme was being published, Part II of which failed so lamentably to see the importance of this same thing.

It must be emphasised straight away that manpower policy is not the same thing as a full employment policy. A full employment policy is concerned with achieving an overall balance between jobs and workers at a high level of employment. It is concerned with the question of the effective demand in the economy, the question of the proper size and the proper timing of public works. This is the full employment policy which aims at overall balance. Manpower policy is concerned rather with matching jobs and workers in more detail, matching jobs and workers in all regions in the country, matching jobs and workers in regard to all types of skill which are available in the work force. It is an attempt to see that not only is the average right but that there is the proper adjustment between jobs and workers in all parts of the economy, to see that everyone has, or as many people as possible have a job appropriate to their skill and to see also that they have a skill that is appropriate to their job.

How can we go about this very difficult problem? It is not just a question of seeing that there is enough work but seeing that there is enough of the right type of work in the right place at the right time, of seeing that when the jobs are available, the right type of people are available in the right place with the right skill to do these jobs. If we were dealing with a relatively static economy, the equilibrium between these factors could be maintained largely by free market forces. If we had an economy in which there was not great change occurring, in which there was no great economic change or no great technological change, then we might perhaps leave to the market forces this adjustment of equilibrium. From the point of view of social policy, this might not be the best thing to do, and I do not think it would, but there would be no economic argument to add to the social argument, no economic argument as to why we should take special care, as to why we should make special plans in order to see that the right person was in the right job.

In a changing economy, however, there is no doubt that the market forces would be completely inadequate even from an economic point of view, apart from their social consequences. Of course, we here are in a changing economy. We have been under notice for some time to prepare for free trade conditions but even were we not in the process of change by virtue of a reversal of our previous economic policy, by reason of the removal of what we might call some of the institutional features of our economy, even if we did not have this problem, we would still be in a process of change because any country which is keeping up with the rest of the world is taking part in the extremely rapid technological change which is such a feature of the present time. For both these reasons, we face substantial structural unemployment in this country in all sectors, and we face problems of redundancy which will be of a substantial order. These problems cannot be left to market forces. They cannot be left to uncoordinated attempts to solve this problem here and that problem there. These problems cannot be solved without a substantial manpower policy, without a unified manpower policy.

If we are to have this local matching, this local equilibrium in every area and in every skill, then we must have planning to do it. This thing must be done by positive action. That is why it was a blunder of the first order that this was not an integral part and a key part of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. To say that we want an active policy, to say we want active planning in this regard is not to say we want anything like complete and absolute direction of labour. That is something which would be at variance with our traditions, which would not be acceptable and which certainly is not necessary to solve this problem. What we want to do is to plan, to produce a comprehensive, integrated policy that will help to do this work because we must be absolutely clear on the point that the market mechanism will be completely unable to do it. As I think will be clear to most people, even if we were prepared to accept the social cost of leaving this to the free play of economic forces, the economic forces themselves would not be able to do the job. They would not do it quickly enough or efficiently enough and they might not even reach a true equilibrium at all. Due to the fact that there would be a lack of information available to individuals making local decisions in a free market economy, the decisions of those individuals would not be made on the basis of real costs and real prices; and also due to the fact that our economy is a distorted one, as indeed most economies are at the present day, we have institutional rigidities which mean that even if there were complete information about costs and prices involved in these economic decisions, these costs and prices would not be the real costs and prices and, accordingly, the equilibrium which would be reached might well be, and probably would be a false equilibrium. Even if the market forces were able to act under these deficiencies, the achievement of the equilibrium would be far too slow, far too long, far too painful and costly in economic as well as in social terms.

A manpower policy, therefore, is necessary. Active planning is necessary. Positive planning is necessary. However, this action should be one which would aid the market mechanism rather than cause it to be scrapped and replaced. It is possible to develop a manpower policy which can aid these market forces rather than cause them to be scrapped. Our planning can be liberal planning rather than authoritarian and no one need have any fears in this regard. It is possible for us to develop a manpower policy which will be in accordance with our traditions and which will also, in my view, be economically more efficient than more authoritarian planning. If our planning is to be liberal rather than authoritarian and if it is to avoid the errors of socialist planning—not perhaps in the sense which Senator Sheehy Skeffington mentioned yesterday but in the sense of socialist planning as understood in Eastern Europe—that desire is absolutely no excuse why the planning should be half-hearted in its inspiration or why it should be half-baked in its execution.

Debate adjourned.
Business suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

May I ask a question or two before we resume?

A question or two?

Yes. I want to know has it been agreed that the Minister will get in at ten o'clock tonight?

That was agreed this morning.

In view of that decision, has any limitation been put on speeches?

There is a desire expressed. That is all, I would say.

Expressed? A feature of the debate here has been marathon speeches by Senators from Dublin and Cork and not a word by the people from the country generally. If there is a time limit on the debate, then there should also be a time limit on speeches to allow Senators to come in and do their little party pieces.

The arrangement to allow the Minister to conclude at ten o'clock was come to by representatives of both sides of the House.

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