Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Feb 1966

Vol. 60 No. 12

Tourist Traffic Bill, 1965 —Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

I should like to welcome this Bill which proposes various improvements and developments in regard to the expansion of the tourist industry in this country. The proposals for the regulation and grading of caravan sites are welcome. The development of these sites is important from the point of view of the promotion of tourist traffic and, indeed, with a view to making possible cheap holidays for some of our own people. It is important that these sites should be properly developed and controlled. Therefore, we welcome the proposals. The development of caravan sites is associated with the encouragement of car tourism in this country and is well adapted to our tourist potentialities because of the extent of our road network and the low density both of our population and of cars on our roads. The proposals, therefore, to extend the amenity loans to places which are not resorts, to make possible the development of amenities in those places in all parts of the country open to car tourists between the main resorts and various areas, are also welcome.

The extension of the resort development limit is something which is desirable. It has been disappointing that the progress in availing of the £1 million set aside by the Government has been so slow particularly as so many of our resorts clearly need development and improvement but, like many schemes of this kind, it takes time to get them off the ground and to get people thinking in terms of this kind of useful development. Some of the improvements effected in some of our resorts are overdue and very welcome. In connection with this I wonder whether the Minister has ever considered one particular kind of assistance to tourism, which is available in Northern Ireland, but not available here? Many of our resorts are lacking in forms of entertainment suitable for the wet weather which occasionally occurs during our summers! In Northern Ireland there are arrangements to subsidise losses on entertainment facilities provided at tourist resorts, with different rates of subsidy for the off-season and the peak. Something of this kind, which would encourage the development of these facilities by helping promoters and enabling them to initiate the development of entertainment facilities, in the knowledge that the losses will be helped out in the early years before these facilities become well established, could be helpful. Indeed, it would be a good thing if local authorities were encouraged to provide entertainment, as well as private enterprise. One of the odd features of this country is that local authorities have not initiated facilities of this kind which have been established in Britain even where the local authorities concerned are controlled by Tory councils predominantly of local business men who would naturally not want the council to intrude on their activities. Nevertheless, here we have not had this kind of local authority development.

Anything that could be done to provide suitable entertainment for people in our resorts would help to get over the problem of the bleakness of life in a resort during a period of wet weather. I wonder whether the Minister has considered the adoption of a scheme similar to that in Northern Ireland. It is the only tourism development scheme in Northern Ireland than which we have not got something better. In general, our schemes are in advance of those not only of Northern Ireland but of other countries and this is the one case where Northern Ireland has something to offer which we have not.

The increased grants for the provision of additional hotel accommodation are very welcome indeed because it has become increasingly clear that the main bottleneck in the development of our tourist industry is becoming, and is likely to be in the future, shortage of hotel accommodation rather than transport, although there have been times, for example, in 1964 when bottlenecks in transport capacity—air transport—temporarily impeded tourism. The proportion of the Government's capital programme devoted to the development of hotel accommodation is extraordinarily small. Out of £100 million something of the order of £200,000 is provided for this purpose.

It is clear that this is inadequate to generate investment in the volume of comfortable hotel accommodation which is needed and whatever stringency may be desirable—indeed tightening up in some areas may be desirable in the capital programme— this is one area where funds must be provided for larger expansion. Failure to expand this small amount of money could frustrate much larger investment in such things as transport and other facilities necessary for the development of tourism simply because there would not be the accommodation available in which people could stay. Our investment in other aspects of tourism seems to be in balance and the accommodation aspect alone stands out.

All the studies that have been carried out during the last couple of years by Bord Fáilte have shown that the area where we are now in danger of lagging behind is hotel accommodation. This bottleneck, however, is not country-wide. There are only three of the eight tourist regions in which accommodation was used as to 80 per cent or more during the period July to September, 1964. There is, even in the peak period, spare capacity and there can be no question of building new hotels indiscriminately throughout the country. Indeed, the existing accommodation can handle about 30 per cent more business in different areas than at present. Though this is true in certain areas, though there is this spare capacity in the peak period, there are many parts of the country where not only in the peak period but outside it, accommodation is in short supply. In 1964, Wexford, Killarney, Clare, Galway and Salthill all had occupancy rates of 95 per cent in July and August. Clearly, there is a serious bottleneck there. There is need for careful planning of hotel accommodation.

In some areas the peak period is extremely short; in others, like Dublin, it continues for a longer period. Consequently, the return on investment varies enormously, depending on the circumstances of the area. Where there is a bottleneck in accommodation and where the volume of local functions associated with the peak period is small, the return on investment is small—it is, in fact, negative in many cases, even with the assistance of the grant of 20 per cent. At the same time, the possibility in other areas of a viable investment without any State aid exists. One well-known case is a major hotel in Dublin which went ahead without any assistance and which, by all accounts, is reasonably profitable.

In trying to expand hotel accommodation where it is needed, we are up against the difficulty that the present fixed system of the 20 per cent grant, while it has the advantages of simplicity, is inappropriate to our needs. In some areas, in parts of Dublin for example, it may mean we are giving money to people who do not need it. In many parts of the country it means that the incentive to invest in additional hotel accommodation is inadequate— that the rate of return for investment, even with the 20 per cent grant, is not sufficient to encourage the provision of extra hotel accommodation. If there were enough assistance in such areas, investment would be viable as the running costs can be covered and the promoters' share of the capital would in this way be made remunerative.

We need, therefore—I should like to ask the Minister to look into this— a much more flexible scheme for this purpose and I think Bord Fáilte have now reached the stage where, with their surveys of hotel occupancy in different parts of the country and their information on the economics of hotel operation, they should be in a position to set out a scheme under which different parts of the country would be denominated, some perhaps for 50 per cent, others 40 per cent, 30 per cent, 20 per cent, and others, perhaps Dublin, where no grant would be provided. The information necessary to carry out the calculation required should show just what kind of grant would be necessary to make the building of a new hotel or the expansion of an existing hotel economic. That information is now becoming available and I suggest we should put it to good use by developing a flexible system of assistance which would ensure the availibility of good hotel accommodation in any area where there is a demand for it and, always of course, where there are efficient operators. It is no good giving grants to enable people to make large profits out of inefficient hotel operations.

There is also the problem of the seasonality of tourist traffic. It is very acute in Ireland, almost more so than in any other country in the world, and from the employment point of view, as Senator Murphy has said, this creates real difficulties because staff are employed for a couple of months each year and are out of work thereafter. In any scheme to expand hotel accommodation, we must cater for seasonal demand and it is important that Bord Fáilte keep in close touch with the Council for Education, Recruitment and Training—the body known as CERT—with a view to overcoming these staff problems. We must mitigate the problems which this seasonality of business brings about for staff. It may be that because of this seasonality of business, and consequently the seasonal nature of employment, we should consider forms of accommodation, such as motels, which do not require a large labour force but which can operate with a small, skilled labour force rather than have a large labour force for a couple of months and have them unemployed thereafter. Any expansion in this direction should be done in close conjunction with CERT which was set up for the adequate provision of staff for the hotel industry.

In expanding hotel accommodation, the problem arises of whether we concentrate on expanding existing accommodation or developing new hotels. In this matter, Bord Fáilte should have a fairly specific policy. In areas where there exist hotels capable of expansion, all efforts should be concentrated on expansion of these hotels and no particular encouragement should be given to the building of new hotels if the existing hotel owners are willing and able to expand their facilities. We can, in this way, make the best use of our existing resources of skilled manpower. There are not many first-class hotel managers in the country. We can make the best use of those we have by expanding the accommodation under their control rather than by a proliferation of new hotels in areas where they are not needed, thus overstraining our resources of skilled manpower and skilled managers. In areas where you have existing hotels you can in this way make the best use of the reception rooms and the restaurants in those hotels. The investment in those places is likely to be more economic.

We must, of course, face the fact that there are many places in Ireland where no hotels exist despite the fact that they are areas which would attract visitors if accommodation were available or where the accommodation is such that it could not be readily expanded to provide the particular kind of hotel which is required. We must accept the fact that in certain areas new hotels will be needed and Bord Fáilte should give encouragement for their development. This is something which could be usefully done in conjunction with the Irish hotel industry which I can say from personal knowledge of the industry, as consultant to the Irish Hotels Federation, is more than prepared to co-operate. I think there is a possibility here of developing a scheme under which the existing Irish hotels, through the Irish Hotels Federation, would jointly, with Bord Fáilte, help to finance the development of new hotels in areas where, by agreement, they are required. Those hotels could then gradually become self-supporting private enterprises.

You could provide a fund, in this way, through Bord Fáilte, which could be a revolving fund through which people who are engaged in running a hotel could gradually buy out the interest of Bord Fáilte and the money thus released could then be used for other hotel development. It seems to me that the small-sized and the medium-sized hotels are particularly suitable for personal ownership and management by private enterprise. I certainly have no inhibition about State enterprise or any ideological predilections for private enterprise but it seems to me that private enterprise is particularly suitable in regard to hotels to which people come when they want personal treatment, personal service and personal contact.

CIE, through Óstlanna Iompair Éireann, operate some large hotels in a number of tourist areas. They are obviously well-equipped to do this job. It may well be that in certain areas there is room for a large hotel which could be best operated through them. I would not exclude the possibility of the development of such hotels but the main requirement in areas which have some scenic attraction, and are particularly attractive to tourists are hotels with 30 to 50 bedrooms capable of handling up to 100 people, including, in many cases, coach tours. Those hotels are best operated by private individuals. Bord Fáilte could help towards the development of those hotels by working jointly with the existing hotels and letting them be bought out by private enterprise eventually. In general, where the State is active there are good reasons for not denationalising State activities and handing them back to private enterprise but in this particular area this might be the most useful way in which Bord Fáilte could operate.

We have to consider how much new accommodation we need. There is a certain amount of disagreement on this. Bord Fáilte have substantially raised the target which was about 550 to 600 rooms a couple of years ago. They now believe that 1,500 rooms per annum will be required in registered accommodation. A careful study of the situation suggests that this may be a bit too high. Certainly, the existing target is inadequate and if we can only attain 500 to 600 extra rooms every year the growth of tourist traffic will be frustrated and the attainable targets for the Second Programme for tourism will be frustrated. But I believe 1,500 rooms may be excessive and there is reason to believe that Bord Fáilte may be overestimating the need in their desire to increase tourist traffic to Ireland.

I have made a study from the available statistics and this shows that between 1960 and 1964 there was an increase of three million bed-nights spent in Ireland by visitors to this country but the increase in bed-nights in registered accommodation was only one million in this period so that two-thirds of the increased volume of visitors to this country were accommodated outside the registered hotels and guesthouses. We must expect that the development of higher-grade tourism and the promotional efforts by Bord Fáilte to attract car visitors, as well indeed as the lower volume of people coming to visit relatives as our emigration remains at a lower level than in the 1950s will change the pattern of growth of our tourist business. Bord Fáilte are thus right to believe that in the years ahead the proportion of the increase in visitors to this country who will look for registered accommodation will be bigger than in the past, but I think it is questionable if the proportion of the increase requiring registered accommodation will rise from one-third to three-quarters, which Bord Fáilte have assumed in calculating their requirements of 1,500 additional rooms per annum. I would have thought this proportion might lie at about one-half and that of the 2,000 rooms required, one thousand, or perhaps, a little more, would have to be provided by registered accommodation. In other words, the existing target should be doubled but not perhaps trebled. This is something which requires further study.

Certainly I would welcome any move by the Minister to increase the resources available to finance additional accommodation. I believe we must expand more rapidly than we have been expanding but we must not overexpand. We must try to discover what is the optimum rate. I believe this is higher than at present but somewhat lower than the Bord Fáilte target.

There is one other matter in relation to accommodation and that is the type of hotels required. There is a divergence of view on this. Bord Fáilte have said that in order to attract more tourists to Ireland we require a fairly high standard of accommodation. They believe the kind of people who use this type of accommodation will spend more money while they are here and that when those people return to their own countries more people from lower income groups can then be persuaded to come in their train—for Bord Fáilte also wish to attract other visitors who may not be able to spend as much money. There is, however, a view which is widely shared, and which was expressed almost unanimously at the recent Tourism Conference, that Bord Fáilte is aiming a little too high in this respect. The view appears to be that we should increase the grade B and not the grade A accommodation. The view held by the people operating hotels and many other interests at this conference was that grade A was all very well but that the cost of grade A accommodation and the prices that might have to be charged for it would be too high for most visitors. They said that something nearer to grade B accommodation would be more desirable.

There is a divergence of view here and it would be desirable that Bord Fáilte should take account of that. They are right in principle to seek higher-grade accommodation but perhaps this might be at a price which would not be in the price bracket of many visitors and the possible advantages would be then frustrated. If we could give grade A accommodation at grade B prices that would be ideal, but we must in any event give the best value we can. This divergence of view between Bord Fáilte and experienced people in the industry is not very marked. It is a question of emphasis rather than anything else. It is something to which attention should be given.

Bord Fáilte are to be congratulated on this annual conference that they have inaugurated to bring together all the interests in the tourist industry to discuss the problems they have in common, to present their plans and ideas for criticism, and to listen to and answer criticism. It is an excellent arrangement, and it has promoted in the tourist industry amongst the different interests, a sense of co-operation and an interest in development which one would like to see in other industries. Bord Fáilte have given a lead which other Government agencies might consider following. The purpose of this type of conference is not only to tell people in the industry what Bord Fáilte are planning but also in order that Bord Fáilte can learn what the industry is thinking. Where there is a slight divergence of view in the industry one would like the Board to be receptive to other views and not too rigid about their plans. Bord Fáilte have applied a professional expertise to their planning which is not seen in many other tourist authorities. Nevertheless, Bord Fáilte can benefit from the views of the people in the industry to which they should be prepared to pay attention.

The whole question of prices is difficult. There were criticisms of hotel prices in this House in a debate last summer and there were criticisms from people outside it. Some of this criticism was misconceived. There are problems which are not widely appreciated. I referred to one at that time: the problem of high wages which arises in Dublin to a greater degree than in many other countries because tourist labour here is organised by the trade unions. That is entirely creditable and good, but it means that the wages paid in the industry here are in many cases higher—and in some cases much higher—than elsewhere.

This is a paradoxical consequence of not having full employment. In other countries where there is full employment there is an influx of cheap foreign labour which makes it impossible for the trade unions to organise. In Ireland as we have not got full employment, we have not an influx of cheap foreign labour. We have not a mass of people coming from the southern European countries to be waiters. Consequently the industry in Dublin is highly organised and the wage rates are greater than they are elsewhere. Anyone who saw the film about the Savoy Hotel on the BBC—on which the Savoy Hotel tried to take legal action to prevent being shown — knows that the staff were interviewed and that they stated that they were paid £5 or £6 a week, plus tips, and will have been somewhat shaken by the contrast between that and the rates paid here. That is one reason why we have to expect that hotel prices in Dublin are relatively higher than they might otherwise be. We do not have the sweated labour that other countries have.

Another problem which we have to face is that the accommodation in our hotels which for a long time was fairly static is now expanding rapidly. The provision of new hotel accommodation costs a lot more than the written-down cost of existing hotels. It has been estimated that in Ireland our hotels are worth about £30 million. They stand in the books of the proprietors at that figure, but the cost of replacing them at a standard which would meet Bord Fáilte requirements would be about £70 million. As time goes on, and as our hotels become better and more modern, inevitably the costs involved and prices involved are pushed upwards. That is another problem we have to face.

Another provision of this Bill is an open-ended provision for Bord Fáilte financial requirements to enable it to provide the services it offers. This has hitherto been limited and the Minister's decision to remove the limitation is very acceptable as each year there is an opportunity to consider it when the Vote comes up. The increase in Bord Fáilte's promotional expenditure has been very carefully worked out and in the past year or two it has begun to produce an excellent and worthwhile expansion of the business. We have to spend more money to get more money in this area. In the provision he has been making for Bord Fáilte the Minister has taken a very enlightened attitude which will pay off in the years ahead. Indeed, I do not think that the provision we have made for Bord Fáilte, their terms of reference, and the Government's willingness to let them move into the various areas where they can do useful work is always appreciated.

Other tourist authorities come to Ireland to learn how Bord Fáilte do the job. Bord Fáilte are a leader in the field. We do not always realise, for example, that a hotel classification system is far from universal. There is no such thing in Britain. The British Travel Association have no hotel classification system and consider it impractical and undesirable, and not to be contemplated. I had the experience of discussing that with a tourist authority in Northern Ireland and so insular were they that they said that virtually no countries classified hotel accommodation. When I pointed out the number of countries that do classify their hotels it developed that "virtually no one did it" meant "Britain did not do it". They were unaware that it was done almost everywhere except in Britain and Sweden. The tourism conference to consult with the tourist industry is another step forward by the Board.

Senator Murphy referred on the last occasion to some figures that got publicity in Northern Ireland some weeks ago and which purported to show that the tourist business in Ireland was declining. I have taken the trouble to investigate this because the authority given was that it was a statement made by the Economist Intelligence Unit with which I am associated in Ireland. These figures are of no significance whatsoever. They are the result of an inadequate sample so we need pay no attention to them at all. They were referred to in an article in a publication of the Economist Intelligence Unit but they were taken from a survey by the British Travel Association. There is no basis for them. There was a slight fall in the proportion between 1961 and 1963 but it made a recovery in 1964, and in 1964 our share of the British holiday market grew. Indeed, the whole of the increased number of British tourists in 1964 came to this country because of the promotional activities of Bord Fáilte. We can dismiss these figures because they do not give a true picture.

What has been happening with regard to tourist transport facilities is important. Aer Lingus are providing adequate accommodation but our main problem has been car ferry capacity, because it is clear that much of the future of our tourist industry lies with the car traveller who comes here and makes use of our empty roads. Car ferries are now beginning to be provided and this is giving a new injection into our tourist industry but more needs to be done in this regard.

It was disappointing to read in the correspondence of the Irish Times about a year ago that an attempt by Irish interests to provide a car ferry between Rosslare and a port in South Wales, I think it was, did not succeed. Indeed, a suggestion was made that the Government intervened to prevent its development because of representations by British Railways. If that is so, one would like to know why the Government thought it necessary to intervene to prevent public and private Irish interests from developing a useful service because it did not suit a foreign transport monopoly. I should like to ask the Minister if there is any truth in that story and if, indeed, steps were taken by the Government to prevent this development and if so on what grounds they took this action. The Government may have had reasons but we should be made aware of them. On the face of it, it is a matter which requires explanation.

Another possible car ferry service which has been investigated by private industry but has not so far materialised would be of great importance, and that is a connection direct to the Continent. This is feasible. It is a distance which could be covered in a period of time that would be acceptable to people travelling on it. I know that it has been looked at but so far nothing has materialised. I should like to ask the Minister whether he knows if the reason for failure to initiate such a service so far is a doubt as to its viability in the early years, and whether the project had to be dismissed as premature because there was not enough traffic to meet the high initial cost so as to be sure of profits in the early years, resulting in a decision that it should be left over for some years. In such a situation it could be appropriate for the Government through Bord Fáilte to intervene and offer a diminishing subsidy to cover losses being incurred for a short period of years in order to get such a car ferry going perhaps five years earlier than the time when on the merits of the case in pure private enterprise terms it would be put on. This continental car ferry could develop continental tourism to Ireland which we have not yet begun to develop. Bord Fáilte are beginning to make efforts in this sphere and the volume of business from it is capable of being enormously expanded. I know that the Board plan to develop it in the years ahead and envisage big developments. Nothing could help this as rapidly as having a direct car ferry service. Nowadays very many tourists on the Continent go on holiday by car, and this business of having to book across the English Channel, drive across England and then cross the Irish Sea is something which is bound to discourage them from coming here. I know that there is the Aer Lingus car ferry link with Cherbourg but the length of the journey is far too long for an economic service. There should be the possibility of a shipping service to cater for this traffic. This is something which we should push ahead with, and I would like to hear if the Minister is making plans or if there are private plans of which he knows, which he could assist by providing a slight and diminishing subsidy. The Minister quite properly dislikes all subsidies for transport purposes, and this is a very good thing, but there are special cases, and this is something which everybody knows would become viable and profitable in a period of years when Bord Fáilte have developed the business. It could be given temporary assistance to get it off the ground and so assist progress during the remaining years of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

I should like to endorse the arrangements for regional development of tourism established by Bord Fáilte and to welcome its regional boards which are proving a success under the energetic guidance of the local managers, most of whom have been dedicated to their work and have made a very good job of it. Because of this there is developing a local interest in tourism and in the provision of facilities that was not there before, including the establishment of many hotel booking offices throughout the country which are facilitating holiday-makers coming through this country. This is something particularly useful for car tourism where people like to be free to move around and to feel that they have some assurance that they will be fixed up for a bed if they have not booked in advance even during the peak season. It is particularly welcome for this reason, too, that it is helping to build up room occupancy in the hotel industry and thus to make it more economic. The whole regional scheme is very welcome and we are glad to see that it is becoming a success.

The tourist industry is, indeed, of enormous importance to our external balance, and it is being energetically developed. It is true that mistakes have been made in the past, and mistakes will be made in the future, but every effort is being made by all concerned —the Government, Bord Fáilte, the transport and hotel industries—to make the most of it, and there is a degree of co-operation between the Government agency responsible and private interests which I think sets an example to other sectors of the economy.

Mr. O'Kennedy

The prospect for tourism which we face in these coming years is, indeed, encouraging not alone in the light of our achievements over the past four years in particular but in the light of the great potential which this country has in itself, in its character and its amenities. The annual Bord Fáilte report published in last year's returns confirms the optimism which any student of Irish tourism would have. Our average annual increase, as the Minister pointed out in his opening speech, from tourist income over the past four years is 6.8 per cent. Our total income last year from tourism was in the region of £68 million which, as has been brought home to us, is the biggest single earner in this country, bigger, indeed, than any other source of income in Ireland. Part of the success, and possibly a small part, may be due to the trends outside of our own situation, trends which I feel that Bord Fáilte and the Department of Transport and Power are exploiting fully and very commendably. I speak in particular about the growth of international travel particularly in Europe. Since the war this travel has almost been fully exploited in Europe in regard to the amenities of the better known European countries and the regions which were some years ago singular both in their exclusiveness and their attraction. Many continental Europeans, particularly Germans and Dutch and Northern Europeans in particular, are now seeking new outlets for their holidays.

These are the outlets which Bord Fáilte and the Department of Transport and Power must exploit if we hope to achieve the targets we have set out for ourselves in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. This expansion will demand an increase of somewhat over 7.4 per cent in terms of the 1960 £ over the next four years, which is somewhat in excess of the expansion we have already achieved over the past four years. I have no doubt that if we continue in the frame of mind in the industry which we have shown up to now this figure will not only be achieved but will be surpassed. This is going to demand, as Senator FitzGerald pointed out, a concerted and co-ordinated effort from all Parties, but when one considers that we have now facilities for introducing a high number of holiday makers into Ireland due to the expansion in Aer Lingus and to the introduction of the British Railways ferry service which was inaugurated last year, we must also look to the accommodation which we will provide for the increased number of tourists we expect to entertain in these coming years.

In this regard there are some rather disturbing figures, to my mind at least. From 1960 to 1964 the total number of bedrooms registered in this country increased from 17,800 to 20,600; in other words, an increase of 2,800. This, in the context of the expansion which we hope to promote, I feel is not nearly adequate. It is quite significant that in some of the most successful tourist promotions in this country—and I think I can be forgiven if I point to the promotion of the medieval tours and banquets at Bunratty—the greatest problem which faces the organisers of these tours and banquets at this stage is what may be the lack of accommodation for the visitors which they hope to attract in these coming years. This has been stressed in the annual report of the Shannon Industrial Estate in the Shannon Free Airport Area.

I feel that the figures which Bord Fáilte have published of the increase in bedrooms strike a warning note in that we must co-ordinate our tourist efforts and, as Senator FitzGerald said, we must beware of the position in which bedrooms are not provided. When one comes to consider the aspects of tourism which have not, as yet, been fully exploited here we must ensure that our bedroom capacity is increased substantially. Before I leave that I should say I was rather startled to note also that the number of rooms with baths available in this country is 3,700. That, indeed, does not strike me as being anything like adequate in a country which hopes to promote tourism as a major industry. This may be due partly to the fact that we do not sometimes provide the same facilities for foreign visitors here as our own visitors abroad demand on their holidays. But I do feel it is important that Irish hoteliers and Bord Fáilte should be made very much aware of the fact that a room, with bath and proper facilities for washing etc, is no longer regarded as being characteristic of luxury hotels; possibly it is in Ireland but certainly not in any of the other European countries, where the standards of hygiene set a headline for us.

Mr. O'Quigley

As in the case of the abattoir!

Mr. O'Kennedy

As in the case of the abattoir. This is something which demands the immediate attention of Bord Fáilte. They will find more and more, if they attempt to organise increased package tours, they will be restricted if they have not already provided these facilities in regard to bedrooms and bathrooms. I say that because I feel that one of the greatest opportunities we have here is in the development of the package tour and, in this, the Bord Fáilte report has shown that the Board are indeed very conscious of the great prospects from this source of income. It has a dual advantage. It means a reduced price for the holiday-maker, in that he can get an all-in term for travel and accommodation, as indeed many Irish holiday-makers have got on continental holidays up to now.

This attraction to the holiday-maker will, of course, reflect itself in the added influx of visitors to Ireland but it also has an advantage for the hotelier, in that, from the beginning of the season, he can be made quite secure in the knowledge that he will have a maximum or, at least, a regular bedroom booking and he can work on that basis for the duration of the season. I have seen from my short experience of travel work in some of the European countries, notably Italy, that this is, in fact, the basis of the vast expansion in tourism there, and I presume also in Spain. They concentrate very much on catering for these package tours, and hoteliers can rely on a fixed and steady income over a period of three to four months during the summer season. Now this, to anybody who casts even the most casual glance at the Irish tourist scene, is something which we, as yet, have not begun even to exploit.

I see from the Bord Fáilte report they have given an indication that they have started on the programme and they intend to continue as fast as possible but I say we have not begun to exploit it in the sense of the benefits which must accrue. We see very little at present, apart from the Bunratty tours I have already mentioned. We see very little of the package tours one witnesses in France, Italy, Spain, Greece or other developed countries, from the tourist point of view. As I pointed out, it should and will lead (a) to more satisfied and, indeed, more eager holiday makers which, of course, is the basis for any tourist programme and (b) to guaranteed prices for hoteliers encouraged in such promotions. In relation to this, I find one very encouraging note is struck in the Bord Fáilte report and that is the figures which have been given for what are termed supplementary premises. In 1964 we had 3,000 rooms available, rooms which are, in fact, provided by guesthouses or farmhouses. In this I see the beginning of a development which may be characteristic of the Irish tourist programme. It is envisaged that by 1967 we will have accommodation for 11,000 per night in such farmhouses and guesthouses.

This is an aspect of tourism which I feel Ireland has a particular opportunity to exploit, in that, remote as we are from the main stream of tourism— and I do not mind saying we are somewhat more remote than most European countries in regard to activity and transport—we have here a culture to display which most European peoples have very seldom witnessed. We do not just display this culture in our remote residences of Ireland. It can be witnessed in any small town or village throughout the country. Indeed, we find it even on the main roads between, say, Dublin and Limerick and Dublin and Cork. I feel this is one of the great attractions which this country must have for the foreign visitor. In offering this accommodation in tarmhouses and guesthouses, Bord Fáilte are doing a great service not alone to the nation, but also to the visitors who come here in search not only of enjoyment but of a more quiet and, possibly, more balanced way of life than they will ever experience in their own country.

I notice it has been suggested that steps will be taken—and I hope they are—under the Local Government Planning and Development Act which is at present a matter of such wide concern to limit the roadside hoardings which have already spoiled the roads of many of the major European countries. One shudders to think of what might happen if we ever found ourselves in the position that the Italians find themselves in at present. At least my last experience of this was about three years ago and I presume, if anything, the roadside hoarding has become more dense there in the last three years. One can imagine that, unless severe restrictions are placed on roadside advertising from the very earliest date, we shall find, first of all, that the pleasure of driving which we advertise so widely, and I feel so properly, is something which no longer will be quite as real as we say it is, but, secondly, that the incidence of road accidents and road fatalities will increase alarmingly. This is something which has been proved in Italy, with the alarming rate of accidents and fatalities which they have.

I feel one of the major causes of this is the absolute indiscriminate advertising which has been allowed along their major roads. We are now in a position to stop this and recent developments on some of our major roads are not so encouraging. One sometimes wishes that the major industrial concerns, producers of cigarettes, beers and spirits, would come to some agreement among themselves and say: "This is one aspect of advertising that, in the interests of the community and of maintaining aesthetic appreciation, we shall limit as between ourselves". If they fail to do so, I hope the Government will take adequate steps to ensure that the signs already creeping in will be restricted very severely.

Only this morning I had an opportunity of getting the figures for the number of cars ferried into this country last year on the new ferry services. It was gratifying to learn that between 9th July and 16th October last, the Holyhead ferry carried 26,000 cars and approximately 85,000 passengers. In other words, it carried three to four passengers per car. This is a vast improvement on the situation in 1964 when the maximum number of cars on either of the boats operating into Dún Laoghaire was approximately 17 per sailing. Sometimes, because of increasing demand for passenger services, the capacity was restricted even further. I can remember in 1958 when I was travelling from Holyhead to Dún Laoghaire. It was the end of July and I was informed that the accommodation for car ferrying had been booked up to the middle of September. In other words, effectively there was no further accommodation for car ferrying that season.

I mention this in the context of the attractions we have been advertising so widely for the pleasure of driving in Ireland. As Senator FitzGerald pointed out, we have a generous network of roads which, in fairness to the Department of Local Government, compares with any in Europe, and with the increasing number of guests who are availing themselves of this car ferry service, it is important that we should maintain this amenity of driving for pleasure which has been advertised in the English and continental papers.

There are so many aspects of tourist traffic and the prospects it offers for the community that one can deal only in a rather vague and general way with some of them. One that occurs to me which I feel is of some importance—in every country it means real business— is that of holiday souvenirs. I should not say souvenirs but gifts because one tends to regard souvenirs as leprechauns or mythical and legendary creatures provided as playthings for incoming tourists. We should have some means of promoting the production of articles characteristic of individual areas throughout the land.

It is done very effectively in Italy. In every part of that country one can see silks, woollens, delph, glass, all gifts characteristic of the different parts of Italy. They are displayed in each of the major tourist resorts. It is something which we sadly lack. In so far as it is true that every part of Ireland has its tourist potential, I think Bord Fáilte, who have taken some steps already, should extend this activity so that we shall have display centres where articles characteristic of the different areas can be displayed in prominent places. I should like to refer in this context to the success of the Shannon promotion in connection with Bunratty Castle. It has been said, and anybody living adjacent will agree, that the main problem facing the workers of the Shannon Promotion Tours — there may be a problem of lack of hotel accommodation—is the lack of available castles as centres for organised tours. Somebody has said very truly that we are running out of castles. This is an area into which the Board of Works could look beneficially in conjunction with Bord Fáilte.

In the town of Nenagh a grant is being made available for the reconstruction of the fine Butler keep in the town. In many towns in the area, such grants, first of all, will have the advantage of reminding local people of their great historical heritage and of encouraging local interest in national monuments, at the moment lacking; but, secondly, these buildings can be made showpieces for visiting tourists. I merely point this out not by way of urging it on the Board or the Minister because they are taking steps to encourage this activity, but to submit that the Board of Works also have responsibility in this sphere for the promotion of tourism.

When one looks at the scene which has become a peculiarity of Irish tourist promotion in recent times— festival promotions—certain things automatically enter one's mind. First of all, we are informed that in 1964 the total amount of the grants available for festivals was £30,000, whereas the estimated income was £250,000. Somehow it occurs to me that in promoting so many festivals we may be promoting further tourist amenities. Festivals which tourists enjoy can be occasions of mirth and jollity but they are sometimes occasions of displays of bad taste for the local population. I appreciate the organisers do not intend them to be such but on some occasions they have been made opportunities for long hours of drinking, dancing and the practice of other forms of Irish life which are better not advertised too widely. That is something that should be curtailed.

I must admit to being a little saddened on a recent occasion when the Rose of Tralee festival was being transmitted over the Telefís Éireann network to hear what is, indeed, a lovely Irish ballad, "The Rose of Tralee," rendered in a spirit more reminiscent of the long-haired Molly of London, as someone said yesterday in the Dáil, than the spirit characteristic of Irish music and culture which we should portray on such occasions. Let us at least spare our culture, such as it is, from any influences of that sort and, in promoting our Irish music and ballads on those festive occasions I feel, at least, we should keep them as far removed as possible from the showband variety of entertainment. I would make a special appeal to the organisers of such festivals to ensure that the ballyhoo, which is generally associated with such showband personalities, is not foisted on the community and, indeed, is not allowed to spoil the appeal of such festivals.

I had a note here on complaints but I feel the Bord Fáilte report has dealt very adequately with this matter. One of the most constant complaints—this ties in with what I have already said —which Bord Fáilte have received from visitors concerns the lack of public toilets and the lack of hygiene which are rather characteristic of this country. I hope—this is an appeal to the people at large and not just to hoteliers—that we will soon see the day when there will be a little more civic spirit exercised in relation to the maintenance of the same standard of cleanliness in Irish towns and cities and also that those who use some of our major hotels throughout the country may be conscious that after they have left them somebody a little more hygienically minded may be visiting the same location. This is particularly characteristic of hotels which run Saturday and Sunday night dances throughout Ireland. The debris and the general state of absolute chaos which one witnesses on Monday morning in those hotels is something that can never be regarded as a tourist amenity. I hope that most of our tourists are in a position to sleep through the banging and dancing of Sunday night and long enough on Monday morning to enable the hotel staff to clear off the debris and the litter left in many of our major hotels after such occasions.

There is one final matter which I should like to mention, and which has already been mentioned by Senator FitzGerald and that is that in the nature of things hotel work and tourist work in general are seasonal. Hotel work is more than seasonal because the hours are irregular. It is almost more irregular in the demands it makes on those engaged in it. I believe hotel staff, hotel managers, hotel proprietors and all those engaged in this work would agree with Senator FitzGerald, as I agree with him, that it is very important that the staff in our hotels should be properly organised from the trade union point of view. I would go much further and say to the trade unions here that, where the staff are satisfied to work on conditions which are mutually agreeable between themselves and their employers, they should not in any way restrict the longer hours of work that may be demanded during a shorter working season.

This is one of the reasons why the Italians, the Spaniards and the French have been able to build up a tourist industry that is at present the showpiece of the whole world. One can walk into an Italian, French or any European hotel, for that matter, at any hour of the day or night and get the service which any holiday maker is entitled to get at that hour of the day or night. Happily, this is still the position in Ireland at present. I hope it will be allowed to remain so. I have seen the advantages which this confers both on the holiday makers and the staff. Happily, as Senator FitzGerald pointed out, our hotel staffs are better remunerated than their counterparts in England. Everybody associated with the hotel industry knows that the basic salary is only one aspect of what may be earned by working in this industry. Generally, speaking, the experience is that the services rendered with such courtesy by the Irish people are quite adequately rewarded. Any worker in a hotel is certainly entitled to be allowed to continue to give those services even if it means working far in excess of the standard working week. Hotel proprietors should be allowed to continue to exploit this rather short seasonal source of income.

The experience in Italy should sound a warning note. In the late 1950s or early 1960s a series of lightning strikes were organised in some major centres of Italy. Those strikes, for whatever reason organised, had adverse effects. Holiday makers, having travelled 200 or 300 miles on a bus tour, suddenly found themselves stranded overnight many miles from their destination. They were not able to enjoy the amenities which had been promised them in their advance tourist publicity. This created dissatisfaction. I know that this factor contributed in a very big way to the rather alarming decrease in touring which the Italian Tourist Board noted in the late 1950s and early 1960s. This is something I know they have now corrected because this can only injure both the interests of the holiday maker, who comes after all to enjoy a holiday and is not particularly concerned as to what the local issues are between employers and employees in a particular place, and, secondly, the interests of the locals themselves. If this should happen here the income of the locals from this source, which now shows great prospects of development, would be drastically curtailed.

We have seen the effect this can have and I would appeal to all concerned in employer relations and in providing such amenities to show greater concern for the visitors than they do. We could have an increased number of tourists here if we showed them greater hospitality. They would then come back the following year. The lesson is there and I hope it will be learned.

Finally, when tourists are encouraged to come to our country it brings greater prosperity to parts of the country which have very little natural prosperity. Apparently, Providence has ordained that parts of Ireland and, indeed, every country in Europe, which are otherwise most unproductive are most productive from the tourist point of view. The natural colour and beauty of the more remote parts of Ireland mean prosperity for the people of those areas even if the natural resources of those areas are very limited indeed. This is a great opportunity for the Government to save the west and, indeed, to save every other part of Ireland that is remote and beautiful, from economic depression. This has been done effectively in many European countries. I know, and I am happy to feel, that steps are now being taken in that direction here, too.

Also by way of general observation, tourism offers us an opportunity to display our national characteristics and our culture, but above all, a standard of morality which I feel is much too scarce throughout the highly developed countries of the world. Here we have maintained a sanity, a balance and what we can honestly call a happiness in our way of life that are not readily visible in many more economically developed countries in the world. It may be that we can accomplish a lot by showing to our visitors that they can learn a little from the Irish way of life. I hope this opportunity will never be lost by any Irishman who finds himself face to face with visitors to our country. We must never compromise our own standards by providing what lesser standards might demand. We must assert our own standards and they will make our own attractions more desirable, and have an influence not only on tourism but on the international scene, more effective than this small land of ours could otherwise have.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

When we talk about tourism and our tourists I am sometimes prompted to wonder who exactly are our tourists. We are told—and I think the figure has been fairly constant in the past few years—that we get something like 3,000,000 tourists in a year. That means we get one per head of the population. I think I am right in saying that the actual total figure in Britain is about the same, and they have a population some 15 times as big as ours.

Who are these tourists? Some are visitors from abroad, but quite a number of those who rank as tourists in our statistics are Irish emigrants. An Irish emigrant who comes home for Christmas, for Easter, and in the summer, is three tourists in our statistics. Consequently, I believe that there is a certain failure to realise the true position when we talk about the encouragement of tourists. It is a splendid thing from every point of view for those Irish men and women for whom we have not found employment here, to come back and keep in touch, but I think we should be realistic, and recognise that many of our tourists are, strictly speaking, simply returned emigrants. Some others, indeed, are one-day visitors from Newry. Yet they rank as tourists, and they might come down quite a number of times in a year.

I bear this in mind also when I hear that we are one of the best-fed nations in Europe. This is based upon the statistics of the amount of food we consume. There are 3,000,000 of us and 3,000,000 who come to visit us. The 3,000,000 who come to visit us, on average, do not stay for more than ten days. Consequently, their consumption of food is not comparable with that of our residents. Nevertheless, the calorie intake per head which is often referred to, is a slightly artificial figure, because it is forgotten that we have such a big proportion of tourists, many of whom are temporarily returned Irish men and women.

Tourism is, to a great extent, generously subsidised from State funds by the taxpayer, and this Bill indicates that there are to be further concessions in this regard. Senator O'Kennedy in his speech, most of which I would agree with, pointed out that tourism has the advantage of bringing at any rate relative prosperity to rather remote parts of the country, and this is true. It is also true that the development of the tourist trade in remote parts does encourage money to filter down into parts of Ireland which otherwise might not be prosperous in any sense.

Nevertheless, it is fair to say that while the taxpayer pays the subsidy, the main benefit goes into private hands. I wonder if the Minister has ever considered doing what they do in France and other continental countries, that is, putting on what they call a taxe de séjour, a tourist tax, which would be a way of requiring tourists to repay some of the investment by the taxpayers in tourism, to the taxpayers direct. I know it would not be very popular with tourists, but a similar thing is already done by Aer Lingus. They charge a landing fee of 7/6 which is now going up to 10/-. It does not seem impossible to me to examine the possibility of channelling some income from tourists direct to the Central Fund, and not be content simply to allow all the benefits to filter down to private hands.

Another point I should like to raise is the question of the taste with which portions of our country are being developed either by private interests, or by private interests supported by the Government or by Bord Fáilte. Sometimes it is admirably done, and sometimes it is lamentably done, or done without much sense of taste at all. A large car park has been laid down on what is called the Summit of Howth, which is not of course the summit, which enables citizens to go there on Sunday afternoons and sit in closed cars reading the Sunday newspapers. This does not seem to be the best way to develop one of the most magnificent features surrounding Dublin, that is, the promontory of Howth. A great big slab of concrete which enables people to get there without any excessive exertion on their part and squat in large numbers in cars, does not seem to be representative of the best that could be done from the point of view of taste.

When you get to the end of Glenmalure, this magnificent if sombre glen, you find on the road before the ford which more or less stops the road, a great big slab of concrete, a car park. It is now possible to go to the end of Glenmalure and park your car there. One of the great attractions of Glenmalure in the past was its remoteness and its relative inaccessibility. It was not inaccessible to any exaggerated extent because it is only three or four miles on foot or on a bicycle and that was not excessive; but it just had to be made even more accessible apparently.

The attraction of places like the Gap of Dunloe in Killarney would obviously be destroyed if you made it easy for a whole stream of motor traffic to go there. I would like to see a greater awareness of the fact that you can spoil amenities whose main attraction is remoteness or inaccessibility by making them too readily accessible, in an attempt, as it were, to "bring inaccessibility within the reach of the million." This cannot be done. We are not the only country that spoils places like this. Switzerland does it. Snowden is spoiled by the ease of rail-car access to the summit. We should beware of spoiling one of the qualities in our countryside for which many tourists come here, and that is its remoteness, its quietness and its inaccessibility. We must, therefore, fight any tendency there is to encourage the Coney Island or Blackpool attitude to what tourists want. That kind of vulgarisation of the countryside is not what many tourists come to Ireland to get. This is understood by Bord Fáilte, and you can see in the tone of many of their advertisements that what they are boosting is quietness, solitude, empty roads and so on. There is little doubt that some of this quality will be spoiled if we overdo it, and if we enable all our roads to be cluttered up with vast numbers of cars in the tourist season. I would like to see, therefore, as part of the conscious policy of Bord Fáilte the preservation at least of certain zones of unspoiled natural beauty, solitude and silence. I believe that these are tourist amenities and attractions, and I also believe that they are things that have to be preserved consciously as part of our tourist plan.

We should be well aware, in developing tourism, that there are many different types of tourists. Many of them are very discerning, and the danger of spoiling our attractions arises in Dublin and in our other cities too. I remember showing around Ireland an American friend who is a descendant of the Edgeworth family and whose ancestors went to America many years ago. She is now living in San Antonio in Texas. She took a bus tour around Dublin under the auspices of CIE and she was horrified at the unconscious attitude of the spokesman of the tour who kept pointing out to the passengers all the old buildings that were being demolished and seemed to take a special glee in showing what she called the monstrosities that were being put up in their places.

"If I want to see skyscrapers, and shoddy ones at that," she said to me in effect, "I do not have to leave San Antonio. You have marvellous Georgian buildings, and whilst I recognise the fact that because they are labelled with the name of a British king this might be held against them by some people, they have an essential beauty. Some of them may be incapable of further preservation, but masses of them seem to be being torn down, and you are replacing them by the sort of buildings that we can see in any small town in the States."

The other day a representative of the Liberal Party organisation in England rang me up on another matter, and he too asked "what are you doing to Dublin? It seems to me that you are destroying all that is most gracious in this city, and putting up very dubious skyscrapers or semi-skyscrapers in their stead."

I feel that perhaps we do not sufficiently realise what are out treasures, what are the things of beauty, and perhaps we too readily accept the destruction of things which we might regret having lost irreparably when they are pulled down.

I turn now to another point which was commented upon by Senator FitzGerald, and that is the type of hotel accommodation offered. I feel that he is quite right when he says that we should not over-concentrate on grade A hotels on the ground that they cater for the people with the money, and that we would make most money out of them, since our main aim should be to get money. I do not think that our capacity to get money out of tourists should be the sole aim. Our effort should be concentrated not even on grade B hotels but on C and D types also, which would give reasonable, simple and clean accommodation. The top luxury American type of accommodation can be found in almost all cosmopolitan cities or centres in Europe. We can offer something smaller which is clean, simple and above all something personal. These big grade A hotels are becoming more and more impersonal. Yet if there is one quality which we have still retained in this country it is the capacity to give a personal approach and a personal welcome. I would regard this as the most Irish kind of greeting to tourists. I do not feel that the larger hotels are offering this in the same way as some of the quite small guest houses which are also, I am glad to see, now encouraged by Bord Fáilte.

I am glad also that An Oige is being encouraged, though I feel that the development of An Oige in Ireland is still insufficient. The youth hostels are well developed in Wicklow and one or two other counties, but the accommodation and the number of bunks available is very small in relation to our own population—and after all An Oige is used by Irish people throughout the year—and small in relation to the demands of young people coming to this country in increasing numbers. I would extend a special welcome to these young people, and make a special drive not to make bigger hostels but to spread them more evenly in the various counties, which would be very useful action for the sake of a valuable tourist traffic, valuable in more than the financial sense.

Senator O'Kennedy referred to the fact that there should be more coordination in the planning of bed accommodation and the demand for it. The development of deep-sea angling in Kinsale took many years, and Bord Fáilte was helpful, but the provision of hotel accommodation in this place, which was obviously destined to gain such big development by reason of the situation of the Cork airport between Cork and Kinsale, is still very far from being satisfactory. This is disappointing, and it results from failure to coordinate and to plan long-term for the provision of hotel accommodation where it is most likely to be needed.

Bord Fáilte in its publications—its brochures and leaflets and its magazine —has an absolutely first-rate standard of presentation, of lay-out, of colour and design. Everything that is done is in the best taste. These are all extremely well produced, and the magazine Ireland of the Welcomes can be read not only for the beauty of the pictures but for the intelligence of the text. This is an indication that Bord Fáilte knows exactly what is in good taste and what is not. But perhaps as a nation—it would not be fair to blame this on Bord Fáilte—we fail to bring the same taste and the same intelligence to the preservation of the countryside and its amenities and beauties, and also to the planning of accommodation. I put the question that we might ask ourselves, as a nation have we got good taste? Do we demand things that are pleasing to the eye? Are we sufficiently shocked, as Senator O'Kennedy suggested we should be, by the garish and vulgar advertising we see—a big beer bottle ruining the landscape over a quarter of a mile, and the worst possible advertisement for the product, and these clamorous hoardings advertising this and that? Are we sufficiently revolted by the depths of vulgarity to which some of our advertisements descend, apart entirely from the question mentioned by Senator O'Kennedy of the safety on roads which is often endangered by great big hoardings?

In answer to the question as to whether we as a nation have the taste or not, I should be inclined to say— yes and no. There is no question but that in Ireland we have a large number of practising artists, architects and others; people of excellent taste and excellent creative capacity; but the fact is that our commercial pundits make far too little use of the sensitivity and taste of our artists. I should like to see them employed usefully when it comes to a question of planning in both town and country. I think if any of us make the experiment of standing on O'Connell Bridge and having a look at O'Connell Street by day, just look at the front of the buildings; just look at what we have allowed to happen— the appalling advertising breaking every rule of taste, measure and proportion down the whole street. Anybody pausing and having a look at that, will see the garish ruination of what is potentially a broad and gracious street, and must feel that there is something lacking if not in our taste, at any rate in our implementation of what we feel to be right and, perhaps, in our failure to use the people of taste who are in our midst. Many artists are finding it difficult in fact to make a living here, partly because they are not sufficiently consulted on things which ought, in my opinion, be of prime concern to anybody interested in preserving our countryside and in making genuine and functional amenities available for tourists.

There has been a series of articles recently in the Irish Times on mapping and the maps at present available. One point made—I think this morning or yesterday—was that many British commercial companies produce maps based upon our ordnance and survey maps which, from the point of view of colour and presentation, are far more attractive than what we officially produce on the basis of the same maps. That is a very important point. The writer makes a number of other points too—one being the suggestion that our large scale maps should be scaled to 1 in 50,000, instead of an inch to the mile. I suggest that Bord Fáilte might well take in hand the question of providing, or encouraging the provision of maps of a high and uniform standard, in accordance with the sort of standards applied on the continent, which would be of the greatest interest and have the greatest selling power for tourists.

I was talking to a French girl the other day staying here and she said—"Why do your bus stops not give some indication of what buses stop at that bus stop and where they are likely to go after that?" I said: "They do, sometimes !" The fact, of course, is that the number of bus stops and buses which do is very, very small. The bus itself very often, of course, does not even show you where it is going. It frequently shows you where it has just been! In Paris, which is a city I know reasonably well, the bus system there indicates at virtually every bus stop where the buses are going, information as to what are the routes is posted up in every bus, the names of the streets, and an entire map of each section. This is something we ought long ago to have had in our buses, and could be extended to the provincial buses as well as the town buses. We do not, therefore, provide sufficient amenities of this kind; the clarification of the routes for the benefit of those who are not resident here. The same would apply —and I think the Minister would agree—to our failure adequately to sign-post our roads.

Mr. O'Quigley

Hear, hear.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

We signpost our roads now in the way which was quite sufficient for foot traffic, horse-drawn traffic or even for bicycle traffic, but by car you have to come to a crossroads now before you see a little signpost, and you have to stop if you want to read it. In France, they have the right idea. Sometimes they go to extremes but there you can see not only where the roads are going but also what are the names of the villages or towns you will go through. You can go through many Irish towns and villages and you do not know where you have been. This is something which could be developed, and signposts could be set up of a readable size, so that before you reach a point you could see just exactly where you were.

I remember reading an old French magazine which gave an account of the effects of the Paris Exhibition of 1889 and it was not very enthusiastic about various aspects. It noted one thing as being a little sad; and this is something which happens with all exhibitions and that is that when the exhibition was on the price of everything went up, and, when the exhibition was over, the price of everything remained at that height. They said that this has been the successive experience in Paris every time they hold a big exhibition. I am afraid that, to some extent, the prices of things in this country go up each year with the tourist trade. Bord Fáilte might not agree with this, or might not like to have it said, but I feel it is true. Again, we tolerate here something which is intolerable to me: we tolerate the raising of prices in Dublin hotels during Horse Show week. I would say this is just a racket. You are just soaking people by reason of the fact that a sporting occasion is taking place for which the hotels have no responsibility whatsoever and no interest but to soak the people who come here especially for that event. Most of these hotels which do this are virtually full for the remainder of the year also. Yet these artificially inflated prices are put up for Horse Show week. If you look at the prices in hotels down the country you will find they range from eleven guineas to twenty-five guineas a week. I feel there has been an inflation of price there, the effects of which are felt primarily by the tourists but, in a second degree, by Irish people who want to spend their holidays at home. I put the question, in relation to Horse Show week anyhow, "Why should the hotels be allowed to raise their prices considerably during this week?" What extra amenities do the hotels provide then? What extra costs have they got during this week? I feel there is no adequate reason, except that they want to exercise an increased rapacity.

I feel, therefore, that to some extent tourism, if it reaches the proportions anticipated in this country, has the effect of raising prices and the cost of living for all of us. It has an inflationary effect. I believe this is something we should recognise and, with this in mind, I should like to echo something which was said by Senator FitzGerald, and that is we should go forward with some circumspection because, of course, in tourism there is presumably an optimum figure. He also said, however, in relation to the car tourist from the continent: "The volume of business to be tapped is enormous". This sentence rather frightens me. I feel that our tourist industry is doing quite well. If there is a further volume of trade to be tapped which is "enormous" I rather fear we may go beyond the optimum limit and, perhaps, destroy many valuable things, and not only the already high enough cost of living which we at present enjoy in this country.

Therefore, I should like to put a question, and perhaps the Minister would like to answer it: does he consider that there is no limit to the extent to which we should encourage the tourist industry? I feel that there is, that there should be—and that we should not go too far. I am not sure that we have not at the present moment in our present economy gone just about far enough, because though the tourist industry brings with it obvious benefits, it also brings, I would suggest, to the people living in the country, a necessary inflationary tendency affecting the cost of living.

Mr. Honan

In talking about something that has reached such proportions as the tourist industry, one would be inclined to become involved in a plethora of statistics and averages. I propose to deal only with one or two aspects that suggest themselves to me from the Minister's speech. He said that caravan sites are not intrinsically attractive and that close control over them is essential. I had the good fortune to be outside the country at one time visiting a vast area in North America where they were very anxious because of their peculiar situation to develop tourist amenities. They set out with great gusto and advertised throughout the US, inviting developers to invest. In came the fellows with big sombreros and long cigars. They invaded the area with bulldozers and other machinery and I shiver to think that any development of that nature might occur here as a result of our impetuosity in developing the tourist industry.

Caravans, as the Minister said, are intrinsically unattractive and I exhort the Minister and the planning authorities to use the greatest stringency in operating the regulations which will permit the development of this activity. I have seen some caravans in this country. If one takes a visiting tourist and asks him what he considers the most important part of our tourist amenities, almost invariably he will say it is the unspoiled beauty of the country. The second choice is the friendliness of the people.

We had experience of a case last year in West Cork of a particular development and, to their credit, Bord Fáilte at an early stage, tried to restrict or prevent this type of development. I was amazed at the very small volume of public support Bord Fáilte got. As I have said. I shiver to think that, with the financial aid this Bill proposes to give to caravan site development, our regulations would not be strong enough to prevent a holocaust spreading itself like a disease bespoiling the beauties that we are so famous for. I exhort the Minister to use whatever powers he has in the Bill—I also address my exhortation to the Department of Local Government—to see that any development in this direction is well controlled so that no matter what the pressures are or from where they come, no development will be permitted if it is not in the best interests of the country as a whole.

Small development companies and societies throughout the country have suffered frustration in their endeavours to provide local amenities because they ran into difficulties when Bord Fáilte informed them they would not qualify for assistance because they were not concerned with holiday resorts. I am glad to see the Minister has now made provision under which certain financial aid will be given to these development societies and companies for developments which may not strictly be described as tourist resort development. It will help very considerably in activating the interest of small local societies.

Senator O'Kennedy mentioned the shortage of hotel accommodation. Unfortunately, it is true that in most areas in the high season there are accommodation difficulties. Efforts must be made to make up this deficiency. Some people suggest we should make bigger extensions to the bigger hotels; more suggest that we should build small hotels and still more say we should extend the smaller hotels and provide more guesthouses. I do not know how one could put one's finger on the best thing to do. It seems to me that nobody has succeeded in designing the type of hotel suitable for the type of tourist business we have to cater for. It is the general opinion that we should concentrate on the provision of what I would term middle or grade B accommodation.

Whether it is grade A or grade B, what most people are concerned with is the price. Some research should be done to find out what is the smallest and what is the biggest economical type of structure which could be run successfully by a family whose members would be trained in the hotel business. The difficulty at the moment is that extensions are being made to hotels where the owner really does not know the hotel trade. What we need generally is a structure that will not be too big for the management it will have. We need a type of structure throughout the country designed to be run with a minimum labour force.

We all know that the tendency nowadays is that people coming off the ferries want to be outside, travelling, all day and they are more concerned with the bed-breakfast type of accommodation than heretofore when their idea was to spend three weeks or a month in one hotel. We should have some investigation carried out into the type of design most easily managed. Of course, the cost must be low. Such buildings could be scattered strategically along the west coast and local families would be capable of managing them. As I have implied, the cost is a much more important matter than the grade. Sometimes grade B hotels charge more than grade A hotels. Senator O'Kennedy drew attention to the great value castles are to the tourist industry. I was delighted to hear that because in Clare we must have a castle in every field. We are thinking of building a monument to Cromwell for having so largely endowed us with these ruins.

Mr. O'Quigley

There are only a few matters I wish to deal with. I am glad to see the Minister was recently engaged in tourist promotion activities in America. I hope his tour was a success and that it will be beneficial to the country. The Minister has, in my view, one of the most important Departments of State to handle particularly at the present time when our industry is threatened because of competition from outside. It is encouraging to note that what we may lose on industrial exports will be made up, and perhaps more than made up, by a higher tourist income.

It would be very difficult to overestimate the importance of the tourist industry and of the part which the Minister responsible for it can play in regard to it. All in all, I suppose the Tourist Board, who were perhaps the subject of a good deal of constructive criticism in their earlier days, are doing an extremely good job. I have no doubt at all that they have learned from their mistakes and it is now a very good organisation which is, as far as one can judge, well acquainted with the needs of tourists and with what can be done by the people engaged in the industry.

I must join in the tributes paid to the magazine which the Tourist Board produce monthly. It is a splendid production. I enjoy receiving it every month and I feel each month that I should write to thank them for it. It is an excellent job, beautifully got out. Some of the articles are quite delightful. I take that as an index of the standard of efficiency that operates generally throughout the Board. I take it the Minister, from time to time, has regular consultations with Bord Fáilte and expresses to them what he thinks ought to be done.

It is a happy coincidence, in that context, that the Minister is not alone in charge of tourist development but that he also has a relationship with Córas Iompair Éireann. I drew the attention of the Minister, on a previous occasion, in a disorderly manner to our train services. I am heartened to know that the Minister, on occasion, travels by train but I want to insist on this. It does not matter that CIE are in the red, it does not matter that they are losing money, the plain truth is that they are not even giving the service they could give for the money made available to them. It seems to me that there is no excuse for inadequate heating and lighting of trains in wintertime. I stood on the platform of Westland Row station on the 23rd December, 1965, as the train moved out to the west of Ireland. There was an entire carriage in which there was not a single light. I have not a doubt in the world that that position obtained throughout the whole journey.

I have travelled myself on the same train to Castlebar and Westport. I remember on one occasion I had a document which occupied me the whole journey. I had to read it and the light was so desperate that I had a headache for two days afterwards which was only relieved after I had taken some aspirin. That condition of affairs is wholly inexcusable. The strength of the bulbs or something else is wrong. That is the kind of thing the Minister should get after the officials of CIE to deal with. There is no excuse for that at all nor is there any excuse, to put it mildly, for the unseemly condition of the toilets and the way they are kept. It is not because they are used by barbarians. It is just through want of attention that they get into that condition. There is nothing more disgusting for passengers and tourists than to encounter that kind of thing. It is not uncommon at any time of the year. I would appeal to the Minister very strongly to get after CIE to attend to such matters and not be satisfied with what is being done at the moment.

I am not alone in this criticism. A learned Circuit Court judge complained about the heating of a train to Clare recently. It happened in two trains on the same day. I know a person who travelled to Kerry, a whole day's journey, and there was no heating at all in the train. That kind of thing contributes nothing to our tourist industry.

Tourists want fairly comfortable accommodation. Above all, they want good food and drink which is not too dear. I think the drink prices are fairly reasonable but if one is in any way fastidious and wants to bring a visitor to the best kind of hotel with the assurance of getting a good meal, one has to travel many miles on occasion. I often wonder whether the Tourist Board could not organise whatever is the equivalent of a cookery seminar in order to set standards and make hotel managers aware of what is needed.

It is very regrettable in most hotels at any time of the year that you cannot get—you very seldom hear complaints about it—fresh vegetables. You get General Costello's Erin Foods, dessicated carrots and beans. That is all right once in a while for the housewife but it is not good enough as the regular standard fare in hotels. Certainly in an agricultural country the lack of organisation between the farming community and the hotel community is deplorable from the point of view that they cannot make some kind of contract with people so that fresh white turnips, carrots, parsnips and peas are made available during the summer months. That requires some organisation but it would make a tremendous difference to people who place some value on fresh food if that difficulty were got over.

I am glad to see that the Minister shares the anxiety of the House or, to put it the other way, that the House shares the anxiety of the Minister with regard to the development of caravan sites. The need for shielding the caravans from view as much as possible cannot be too strongly emphasised. I hope that the Minister, in conjunction with the Minister for Local Government, will ensure that whatever can be done in the way of planting fast-growing trees or that kind of thing will be insisted upon in order to make those caravan sites as attractive as possible.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington deplored the passing of those things of beauty when he referred to the Georgian buildings. I suppose that is true but those things of beauty, while a joy, were never intended to be such forever. I am afraid that some of them must go but it is a pity, in that context, that, instead of building those hideous skyscrapers which detract from the tourist potential in this city and other places, we do not replace them with a reproduction of Georgian buildings. That could possibly be done, certainly externally, to preserve the beauty of line in the various streets and squares which are being removed at the present time.

I do not think Senator Sheehy Skeffington's hope that anything will ever be done about improving O'Connell Street is likely to be realised because if one stands on O'Connell Bridge in the poetic sun that Wordsworth stood in on Westminster Bridge and surveys the scene at any time, the first thing that will show up in the idyllic sun is the silent monster in solidified concrete that bestrides the bridge. That was erected not by commercial artists, or by people who wanted to advertise, but by the very people whose duty it is to insist upon proper standards under the Town Planning Act. Therefore, we must turn more to the Minister for Transport and Power, and to the Tourist Board, to create public awareness in regard to the spoliation of our buildings around the country. I would hope that the Tourist Board would find it possible to have consultations with the Minister for Local Government to ensure that the kind of buildings that are being erected—and which one sees reported in the newspapers— which spoil our cities would not be permitted by the planning authorities under the Local Government Act, 1963.

Difficulty of access to the seashore along our coasts is a source of great irritation not only to our tourists but also to our own people.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

Hear, hear!

Mr. O'Quigley

It may be all right for small farmers—and good luck to them—to sell tracts of bog and mountain adjacent to the seashore to foreign interests, but I will be hanged any day if I will be stopped by any foreigner from going to the shore where people have gone for hundreds of years past. When the Minister gets complaints of that kind he should deal with them vigorously, and he should inform people who buy land in this country that they must accord with the customs of the country. That is not too much to ask for. It is very irritating for tourists and Irish people to find themselves cut off from, or to find difficulties made in their access to the sea.

There is one final point which I should like the Minister to consider very seriously. A great deal of money from both public and private resources is being invested in hotels and in the tourist industry. It is altogether wrong that one hotel in one resort can give a bad name to the whole resort, but that can happen. People who have been in a particular resort say: "I was in such and such a place and I found such and such disgusting." That is not good enough. There should be adequate powers to deal with a situation in which the faults and failings of a private individual injure the reputation of others, and the well-being and welfare of a locality.

In that context I cannot overemphasise the need for powers to be vested in local authorities, perhaps, to regularly inspect the toilet facilities in the hotels in the country—I suppose that applies equally in the cities—and in public houses and places of that kind. If they are not fresh and clean the person in charge should be amenable to the courts and liable to be fined. I have little doubt that if the few people who do not observe proper standards of hygiene knew that this kind of legislation was on the statute book, and that these powers were vested in the local authorities, we would get rid of this problem of unhygienic toilet facilities very quickly. If the Minister has not got powers under this Bill, and I do not think he has, it would be in the interests of the tourist industry if such powers were vested in some authority, and if the Minister brings in a Bill to do this, or an amendment of any piece of legislation at any time I will not speak on it because I will be in such a hurry to have it passed.

Mrs. Ahern

Together with other speakers, I should like to welcome this measure which increases the resources of the tourist industry. I had the privilege of being on Bord Fáilte for a very short time, and I should like to take this opportunity to join with the other speakers who have congratulated the Minister and the directors of Bord Fáilte on the job they are doing in directing the tourist industry. The tourist industry is really in its infancy, and we are in much more need of direction now than we may be later on when things may have taken a wrong turn.

Everything possible has been dealt with by other speakers from sign-posting to toilets, so I will just hit on a few pet subjects of mine. The first wise move which Bord Fáilte made was to single out special areas for major development, instead of spending money piecemeal here and there. There has been a great impact from the developments that have been carried out in these areas. I have expressed the view before that wherever a special grant is given to develop a major area, there should be a proviso that a centre of cultural and national activity must be provided, because when people come to Ireland they want to see an Irish Ireland, and the more Irish we are, and the more national we are, the more attractive we are to our tourists. Sometimes this is lost sight of, and there is too much catering altogether for foreign dances, and so on. I am not against foreign dances, or foreign recreation, but that can be overdone. We could very quickly "blackpoolise" many of our own wonderful resorts, but if we had centres of national culture and national entertainment that would counteract the other entertainment which is sometimes too prominent, such as jukeboxes, slot machines, and that type of recreation.

This is also important from the point of view of the people who live in these areas. You have no idea, if you bring up your children in a tourist area, of the effect the influx of thousands of foreigners, or even our own people who are merry-making, has on the family. If the tourist resorts had cultural centres the residents could have their own enlightenment and their own entertainment.

Someone referred to our pricing ourselves out of the market. This is a very important point because we have got a few complaints on those lines. I know the Minister is very interested in developing medium-priced hotels, and I am sure he will tell us more about that. I am very interested in small loans for small guesthouses. My experience is that people with small businesses have not the courage to look for big loans, because they do not deal in that kind of business or that kind of money. Very often a loan of £500 or £1,000 would make all the difference between a guesthouse being attractive or unattractive as, unfortunately, too many of them are.

The children are very much neglected in the tourist areas especially at seaside resorts. When the day is not fine enough to go to the beach no provision is made for their entertainment. That should be corrected.

CERT have issued a very nice booklet telling people who are interested in the hotel business as a career how to set about it, what scholarships are available, and what training is available, but I think that will not have results fast enough. I would like to see some crash courses being put on or even booklets issued giving "dos and don'ts" and advice to guesthouses already established on what Senator Sheehy Skeffington has referred to, good taste, for we often find many of our very nice guesthouses ruined with wax flowers and this kind of rubbish that has already cost the people some money. Advice on topics like this would be very important—a booklet about bedrooms and dining-rooms and so on would immediately get into those houses where the children would never have a chance of attending courses and where the house has already been launched as a guesthouse.

I am also very glad that great stress has been laid on the caravan parks, because there is no doubt that if our caravan parks are not very strictly supervised we will have slum areas surrounding many of our lovely resorts. This supervision is very important, and these parks should not be developed too much. Too many of them should not be allowed in an area, and it would be much better if each park were limited so that you would have three or four such parks rather than one huge one. This would make it much easier to have proper supervision, good lighting and so on.

Another point that needs attention at the moment in the tourist industry is summer lodges. Nothing is yet being done to see if these could be inspected or graded. I have never had time to think out what could be done, but many people take a lodge for the summer expecting certain amenities and are very disappointed when they arrive.

Senator Honan made the point that our people are our greatest attraction, and this is certainly true. Let us hope that the day will never come when we become too sophisticated and the affluent society pushing in on us will take away our natural charm from us, and that our people will not be aping visitors but will retain their own individuality. This was brought home very forcibly to me when the countrywomen of the world met in Ireland. We had between two and three thousand women from different corners of the globe here but I never heard much about grade A hotels or about the quality of the food, though several times I was told of the courtesy of our bus-drivers and shop-assistants and people who were met on the roadside. These are the little things that will remain with our visitors long after the glowing lights of our cities and our seaside resorts have faded away. From that point of view we could do far more through television and radio to try to impress every man, woman and child that each one is in the tourist industry because if we do not realise that as well as we should our children stopped on the road and asked for directions may cease to show the courtesy that visitors generally receive.

With the increase in the mobile tourist this is also more important because more and more of these tourists are coming along to villages which never had a tourist before. I remember once asking somebody, who came along as far as Ballybunion and who told me that they stayed the previous night in such and such a village, why they had not moved on a couple of miles when they would have got better accommodation in such a place. The reply was: "We prefer the one-street village. It has more originality." That is something that we should think about, and I think that our tidy towns will come very much into the picture in the new era we are coming to, the mobile tourist era.

Farmhouse accommodation is also very important. This is one type of accommodation which can give a true picture of Irish life and Irish Ireland. There are few places that have gone for the farm guesthouse business, but those that there are cannot cater for the kind of inquiries they get, because once or twice a week they have what we once had in rural Ireland, a scoraíocht when they bring in the neighbours for cards and singing and the people enjoy themselves far more than from the canned entertainment and organised entertainment to be met with in many hotels. We are over-organising our recreation, and that holds too for our public houses and lounges. We have an awful lot of the microphone business which takes from the spontaneity of a night out in the rural areas. We should ask people not to over-organise our tourist industry.

Senator O'Kennedy made reference to souvenirs, and I should like to draw attention to the Slieve Bán Co-operative Craft Group which was helped very greatly by Bord Fáilte and was promoted by the Irish Countrywomen's Association. It is a great pity that we have not more people with the initiative of the people in that area. It is a twenty-mile radius around Strokestown and they have drawn into their net people who can do any kind of handwork. This work is there wholesale and the market is got by the co-operative group. I hope that in future more of these groups will spring up, but it takes a lot of organising ability and patience and the culling of articles before you have your team of workers. This is something that would be of great economic value.

The folk village idea is also growing in popularity and I am glad to see this. The folk houses down around Bunratty are even more attractive than Bunratty Castle. There is nothing that the tourist likes better than to go into one of those cottages and get a hot scone and a cup of tea and sit there by the open fire. I hope that other places in Ireland will develop the idea of a tourist village which in addition to being popular in the summer could be used by the people of the locality during the winter for their own entertainment.

Something that is not stressed enough in our booklets about seeing Ireland are our art galleries with their very fine treasures and the National Museum. I hope that these will be highlighted more than they have been in the past. One very welcome innovation was the setting up of the regional boards. In another year or at any rate in a very short time we will see a great result from these boards each one of which is making its own plans and going ahead to promote its own area. I should end by stressing what Senator O'Kennedy said, that we have a lead over all the world. We have still, thank God, our own great sense of values, and I hope that this sense of values will be kept and held as one of the greatest attractions, as well as our people.

Mr. McDonald

I should like to make a few short observations. I did not take a very keen interest in tourism until last year with the establishment of the Midland Regional Tourist Organisation which brought the midland counties into focus and, perhaps, made everyone more tourist-minded. I find that the efforts of the organisation in the midlands have been commented on. I was not impressed by the publication which the office put out proposing to outline the historical and scenic amenities in County Laois but I still feel they made quite a good start. The office also provided during the last season a temporary tourist office in all the towns in the eight counties comprising the midland region. I feel these have done quite an amount of very useful work not only for the people engaged in the catering and hotel services in the midlands but for the country as a whole.

I should like to comment briefly on hotels. I understand from travel agencies that many of our Irish hotels are quite reluctant to accept bookings from foreign and national travel agencies during the peak period of summer. They welcome them, of course, in the early and late seasons but are apparently reluctant to pay the commission and accept bookings during the peak season. I feel this is very unfair. They cannot really expect travel agents, especially the foreign travel agents, to have an interest in channelling people to our country if they do not pay those agents whatever commission is laid out. Last year during the Seanad election campaign I must have visited about 30 hotels in a rather short period. I found great inconsistency in the grading of these hotels. I also cannot understand why hoteliers send in price lists to Bord Fáilte for their Guide to Hotels, which is a very useful little booklet, and then are inclined to overcharge right through. I also recall on one occasion being charged 9/- for three sandwiches to take away, which I thought was outlandish since you can get a lunch for 7/6 or 8/- any place. I feel too many hotels are really overcharging grossly.

One other point I certainly took exception to, and which is a disgrace, is the growing tendency amongst our hotels to offer a dish of, shall we say, chicken and bacon. Now the chicken is quite all right and what we might expect but the bacon turns out to be a bit of a cat's ear of a rasher. It is a national disgrace that a tourist should get an introduction to Irish bacon in that fashion, and surely somebody, or some authority, must take the responsibility for stamping it out. The Bacon Board are making an all-out effort to sell our Irish bacon in Britain but our hoteliers are certainly killing their efforts if they introduce tourists to Irish bacon in that dreadful fashion. I would even go so far as to suggest that, perhaps, the Department of Agriculture, or somebody would make a regulation specifying the minimum thickness of breakfast bacon or rashers because I find the thicker the bacon the more chance you have of savouring its very excellent flavour. But, for these people who fob off the bit of a cat's ear as Irish bacon with chicken, it is a disgrace, more especially since most people expect the ham when they see bacon described as such.

Senator O'Quigley took exception to Irish farmers debarring the public from free access to river banks and seashores. While I agree that farmers do so, I certainly do not blame them because there are too many inconsiderate people who have no apparent respect for private property, who break down fences and leave broken bottles and tin cans around after them. It is not fair to the farming community. If the urban population were a little more considerate and respected the rights of private ownership and private property, I certainly could not see any objection to allowing people to have free access to the amenities, as mentioned by Senator O'Quigley.

I should like very definitely to see something done about the very bad introduction which too many foreigners are getting to our wonderful Irish bacon, a commodity well worthy to be exported.

Mr. Cole

I just want to raise some points which prompt me to support what other Senators have said. Senator McDonald referred to bacon and ham. In support of his remarks, I was terribly surprised to find, on going to a formal luncheon given by a Minister to members of local authorities in a first-class hotel in the city, that in relation to the menu of turkey and ham the ham was reheated, cooked ham. I think that is appalling. I partook of this on a dozen other occasions when dinner consisted of bacon and ham or turkey and ham. Again, I was served with ham reheated for the occasion. Whether it was that the supply of ham was exhausted or not I do not know but I got reheated cooked ham. I do not think that is good enough.

The only other point I wish to refer to is the overcharging in hotels on special occasions such as Horse Show week, as was mentioned by Senator Sheehy Skeffington. Hotels do themselves a lot of harm because many people who come to Dublin with the intention of staying for two or three days during Horse Show week make a point of not booking even into the hotel they regularly book into because of overcharging on these occasions.

I was told a story in the last couple of months about two foreign visitors who had some to a veterinary conference. They booked into a very big hotel in the city. They each made their own booking; they came and went to the conference for the week, three days or whatever the time was. They went to pay their bills when they were leaving. They had been issued with the cash by the sponsoring body of their own country. They were charged exactly double what they booked in at and the answer given by the hotel was: "We did not know you were coming to a conference when you booked and we always charge double for a conference." That sort of behaviour is doing an appalling lot of harm to the tourist industry because people who come for Horse Show week or to conferences are probably coming here for the first time and the impression they get of this country, is that double the ordinary price is charged on such occasions. Naturally, they will not come back here. The sponsoring body of those two eastern Europeans who had come here settled their bill. That sort of thing is doing an enormous lot of harm to our hotel industry and should be controlled in some way by the Minister.

Miss Davidson

Over the years I have viewed with some doubt the manner in which we expend the considerable amount of money allocated by the Government to attract tourists to this country. Today we are again discussing the Tourist Bill and the tourist trade and today I have more doubts about the Government's expenditure on tourism when it seems to me there is a lack of interest and co-operation even where certain Departments of Government are concerned. We have tidy towns and garden competitions, which I think are valuable, and various other things all to enhance the beauties of our towns and countryside and their appeal to tourists. Yet it seems to me that when it comes to following this through we lack common gumption in the obvious things.

Sometime towards the end of last year, I think it was around October, there appeared in Earlsfort Terrace, beside University College, a thing calculated to drive away any visitor and to cause him to talk in no uncertain terms of the lack of cleanliness, not to mention culture, of the Irish. I am referring to a refuse dump practically in front of University College. When I saw it first it consisted of two large battered bin-like containers, only much larger than ordinary bins, lidless and containing a disgusting assortment of waste food and vegetables. I thought some accident had resulted in these things being left on the sidewalk and that they would soon disappear but they are still there—the only difference being that on Monday last the number had increased to six containers, all spilling their contents over the pavement and road. Yesterday, the six full containers were still there but there had been added six sacks of waste vegetables, a heap of empty cardboard containers, some tin cans and broken bottles. The dump was as high as my head.

This spectacle would be disgusting anywhere but when it is on the door step of University College, with the students almost having to wade through this ever enlarging refuse dump, it is deplorable to think it has been tolerated for months. I take it that the University attracts many visitors and new offices of the Sugar Company, which are opposite the dump, will certainly attract tourists, and this refuse dump will do much to damage the image of our country and the good taste of our citizens. When the flowering cherries in front of the College burst into bloom they will have little impact on a tourist who sees the dump at the same time as he sees the blossoms. The premises outside which this dump stands is 30, Earlsfort Terrace. Until recently it housed Córas Tráchtála, a branch of the Revenue Commission as well as the Special Employment Schemes Office, which is still there. I understand that No. 30 Earlsfort Terrace houses the Civil Service Dining Club. I do not know if this establishment is a Government responsibility. I do not know who is responsible for depositing this dump on the public footpath but I do know it should not be there. Were we to get a warm summer it could be a positive danger.

I ask the Minister to have this area inspected and to have the dump removed at the earliest possible moment. I also suggest that he seeks the co-operation of all business establishments, public offices, including Government offices, to keep their premises and their immediate vicinity free from accumulation of rubbish, at the same time reminding them that where this is not done, they defeat the efforts of the tourist bodies which, after all, cost us a very considerable amount of money.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

At this stage of the debate, so many Senators have ranged over so many aspects of the tourist industry that there is little left to add. I should like, however, to concur in the tributes paid to Bord Fáilte for the layout and the standard of their brochures and of the magazine which is circulated to us. Regarding the financing of the brochures, there are now very encouraging developments, stimulating a more diversified interest in tourism in many parts of the country to which no consideration was given in the past in the matter of extending the opportunities associated with tourist areas. I was rather sceptical about the formation of the tourist area, but I am glad to say that I am converted completely to the new organisation. In fact, I regret that my presence here this week prevented me from attending the first meeting of Ivernia. I should like to pay a tribute to the manager and his assistants for the manner in which they are developing tourism in the southern region.

Going down through the list of the places and organisations associated with this body, it is regrettable that such poor representation comes from areas which have gained most down through the years and it is hoped that many more locations and organisations will see fit in the years ahead to become associated with the activities of this body. I ask the Minister to pay particular attention to one aspect of the advancement of the appearance of the countryside which is showing some results but which, I feel, is capable of still further extension through the medium of the Tidy Towns Competition. There is no activity in which the State is engaged from which they get better value for the miserable sums donated as prizes in these competitions. As the years go by and as the prize money is re-invested by those fortunate enough to win prizes, the opportunities are enhanced for those towns and villages to obtain still further prizes to the detriment of those competing against them who may have entered the field later and who are making efforts, in their infancy, to come up to the standards set by those who have been in the field for a much longer time.

For those who spend so much of their time and effort to remove unsightly objects, to encourage cleanliness, to paint their premises and, by community effort, to establish community gardens and who, apart from the Tidy Towns Competition, invite a competitive spirit, the results have been extraordinary in many areas. We are aware that much more has to be done but those actively engaged in this work deserve every encouragement they get. If one looks at the amount expended by Bord Fáilte, I know of no other aspect of national activity where better value is obtained for the amount expended and I ask the Minister seriously to consider extending the prizes to make them available to those who have not already won prizes in the allocation of prize money.

I would welcome the establishment of more information offices than is projected at the moment by the various area organisations. I know it is a matter of what comes first, the chicken or the egg. We know that if there was more financial accommodation we would have a better case for the establishment of information offices in particular areas. I do not mean permanent offices but seasonal offices. There are many regions now opening up in consequence of the newly established car ferry service. When people come in by this means they like to go 70, 80 or 90 miles from the point of entry. They are not disposed to stay in the recognised resorts or large centres of population. They want to avail of the wonderful freedom on our roads which they cannot obtain in their own country, particularly in Britain. They like to go to other towns and other locations.

The point arises here of satisfying those tourists with the information they require in relation to the accommodation available, so on and so forth. The tourist organisation, in this respect, have proposals before them for the establishment of additional information offices, particularly along the main arteries. I feel that any current financial problem should not be permitted to completely curtail this work. I know there is a feeling that there may be some curtailment in many of the projected areas where such offices are to be established.

I am glad, regarding accommodation standards vis-à-vis supplementary accommodation, that it has been decided to modify the requirements, not in relation to standards but in relation to the number of rooms required to qualify for registration for supplementary accommodation. Quite a few people, in the region where I live, in the vicinity of Bandon, have, in the course of the last few years, through the active interest shown by the Irish Countrywomen's Association, embarked on the farmhouse holiday scheme, with very interesting consequences both from the point of view of financial advantage to those engaged in it and the pleasure that it affords their families in broadening their contacts with people from other lands, particularly where there are students in the family. This is an asset to any community, particularly when you have such people living there and, above all, when some of those who avail of such accommodation express glowing opinions of the fare provided for them and particularly the opportunities presented to them of meeting the ordinary Irish people. It has been said repeatedly by others who have spoken in this debate that this is one of the greatest assets we can offer in relation to tourism. There is no doubt that the friendliness and the natural courtesy inherent in our people are our greatest assets because they operate to make our visitors happy.

The development of supplementary accommodation in guesthouses, farmhouses and so on is to be very much commended in this regard. If visitors live among our people and are interested in the way our people live this will, to some degree, offset the disadvantages of our bad weather. Those visitors would feel much happier than if they went into larger and more impersonal establishments. There is no doubt that very many of our visitors like to move out and meet our people in those locations where they are likely to be more loquacious and perhaps have more time to devote to them, mainly in our Irish public houses. We would wish in this respect, that there was a higher standard of amenities in regard to the outfitting of those public houses and so on.

The plain fact is that there are too many public houses in this country. If we had half the number perhaps those which were left could do something to provide the amenities which modern times require. The State offers no facilities to such people but it has to be said, at least in relation to the larger companies who are supplying those houses, that progress has been made in recent years and they have incurred heavy expenditure in this regard. The provision of dispensers in many of those houses has abated many of the fears which people had before in relation to hygiene. It is also true that as a result of better education we have higher standards among the staffs and the families engaged in operating our licensed premises. The main obstacle to further development in this respect is the fact, particularly in rural towns, that there are so many of them and the amount of trade available is now divided among such a number that it is impossible for those who really wish to improve their premises to do it in face of present day costs.

Before I leave that subject I wish to make one reference to something which many Senators have already referred to and that is the impact of prices on our tourists and on our own people because, in our anxiety to satisfy the foreign visitors, we should not forget our own workers and our own nationals. They are also entitled to a holiday in their own country at reasonable cost and to be treated reasonably. Recently, the Government made an arbitrary order requiring a reduction in the price of drink irrespective of what prices were being charged by whom and under what conditions. It is interesting to note that the people who were reasonable in their prices were subjected to the same reduction in prices as those who were abusing the situation. One of the worst offenders in that respect are our own State companies in the charges which they are making to rail and air travellers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not think the Senator should continue too long on that particular point.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

Except in the context that our visitors are affected by the prices charged. I feel a good example should be set in this regard. There has been a healthy development in recent years in that an increasing number of foreign students come here to learn English. We hope this is a breakthrough and that very many of them, when they return to their country of origin, will impress upon their families the advantages of a holiday in Ireland. As they grow up, it is possible they may come back to the place to which they came to learn English. In this respect, as I say, there are very interesting developments, and there are many families some of whose members are students who are rather anxious to make contact with these foreign students. I know Bord Fáilte are active in organising accommodation for them, but quite often after one has gone to a lot of trouble developing local interest and canvassing families for accommodation for such students— when one has to all intents and purposes satisfied the agent who came to inspect the accommodation—it does not come to fruition, because they were attracted by readymade facilities that were highly organised by the travel agencies in large centres of population. However, these are teething troubles, and we hope we will get over them.

In the region in which I live a development has taken place in recent years that is of considerable interest because of its novelty and attractiveness. It is an unusual type of holiday catered for by those companies that provide horse-drawn caravans. They are being availed of more and more by people who enjoy this system of holiday.

Business suspended at 6 o'clock and resumed at 7.15 p.m.

Mr. D.J. O'Sullivan

When business was suspended I had practically concluded but there was one remaining item to which I wished to refer and I will mention it now. This is in relation to the disembarkation charges made at the airports. I feel that if they must be made they should be fixed in the autumn before the travel agents have prepared their brochures and have indicated to their potential travellers that the charge will be such and such. It is an annoyance and really something which the Minister should look at. In the first place any charges like that which people arriving in the country have to meet unexpectedly must be a source of annoyance to them. If they must be collected why should they not be included as part of the fare? I do not know if this system operates elsewhere, but in relation to this country I have heard travellers remarking upon it. At least if the charge has to be made notice should be given in ample time for those who organise incoming tourists and others so that they could be made clearly aware of the extent of the charge which would be made. It is easily appreciated that such people may be relying on travellers' cheques and may not have allowed for meeting this particular charge the moment they arrive at the airport.

This was the additional point that I wished to make.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers)

I should like to thank all the Members of the Seanad who spoke for their very constructive and friendly approach to this Bill. I am also very glad that there were a considerable number of tributes paid to Bord Fáilte. I also note that the new regional tourist companies are the subject of commendation. They have only just been inaugurated. This year there will be a democratic election of the boards for the first time and these boards will replace the caretaker boards set up at the time of the formation of these companies. I hope that every member of the Seanad will take a personal interest in the regional company in his area. That, of course, means in many cases being a member in the first instance of a local development association, but members of local development associations can also belong in their personal capacity to the regional tourist company. I say this because many of the problems raised here in the House today can only be solved by regional companies. Bord Fáilte cannot settle everything everywhere in so far as the tourist industry is concerned. The enlightenment of public opinion with regard to the maintenance of the beauty of our country, with regard to caravan parks and the stimulation of the public mind to the importance of tourism and all that needs to be accomplished in every area is really something for the regional tourist companies. I am very glad to say that so far these companies have been operating on a splendid basis. There are very few people who are active members who are purely of the tub-thumping type making use of the regional companies simply to secure publicity for themselves. They are doing very devoted work and I hope they will make great progress. I hope that the House will realise the extent of the burden which will be placed upon them inevitably, and that includes arousing public opinion in regard to a great many of the matters which have been commented upon during the course of this debate.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington asked what percentage of tourist income is derived from genuine tourists and not from returning emigrants and from those coming here for business. The answer is 70 per cent in 1964, and still more in 1965. In 1964 £58 million was spent by tourists, excluding the amount spent in transport to or from this country. £43 million was spent by persons who had no business or personal ties with this country.

Next I want to deal with the question of hotel accommodation in general. Senator FitzGerald seemed to imply in the course of his remarks that at a recent conference Bord Fáilte emphasised the need for more grade A accommodation. I think he must have misunderstood whatever speech was made by a Bord Fáilte official on that occasion because I have asked and, indeed, directed Bord Fáilte to specialise in developing grades B to D accommodation while, at the same time, making grants for whatever grade A accommodation is required in the various areas. When the financial grants were offered at the beginning of 1964 they were increased in such a way as to encourage the hotels with the more moderate prices to come forward and apply for extensions. Grants are now offered for the improvement, or the building of guesthouses. The guaranteed loan arrangements are made available to guesthouses in the same way, and also interest-free grants or loans. So, our whole purpose has been to provide the kind of accommodation which would satisfy the needs of people of the middle income grade coming to this country because, quite obviously, there is a very great need for an extension of that class of accommodation.

Now, having said that, during the period 1958 to 1965—and here I reply to an observation made by Senator Murphy—the figures show that the progress in the provision of increased grade A accommodation of 2,233 bedrooms was only slightly greater than the progress made in B and C classes accommodation, which was 2,125 bedrooms. The schemes of financial assistance for the development of accommodation during that period were, of course, available to all grades of hotels and guesthouses. One of the difficulties of encouraging investment in the more moderate-priced hotels is the fact that we have to accept that a very considerable number of our less expensive hotels are run by private families, possibly in conjunction with another business in the town, and they are of a family character. In some cases, it is very hard to persuade people to extend their accommodation, which may be beyond the human resources of the family from the standpoint of providing the necessary labour. Whereas, in the larger class of hotel which is not a family business, it is run more as a professional hotel undertaking. There is more incentive on the part of the directors or promoters to encourage any extensions.

That is exciting the attention of Bord Fáilte and they are doing their best to encourage more accommodation in the B to D grades. Apart from that, Bord Fáilte have been listing supplementary accommodation, which is not registered and, in the present year, there will be some 5,000 bedrooms available, full particulars of which are published and distributed by Bord Fáilte through all their offices in Great Britain, in Europe and in America. There is a constant increase in this type of accommodation, which is excellent, but is of a more simple character. I am glad to say that a great number of people have found satisfaction when they have selected one of these unregistered guesthouses for their holiday.

Senator O'Kennedy, rather in contrast, suggested that there were not enough baths in hotels. We are making progress. The new 1966Hotel Guide contains the information that there are 4,391 rooms with baths compared with 1,151 in 1950. In 1966 as against 1965, there were 782 new hotel rooms and 320 new guesthouse rooms, making a total of 1,102 new units of accommodation.

Senator FitzGerald raised the question of the provision of capital for the hotel industry and questioned the scope of present grants, as to whether they might be inadequate, particularly for hotels and guesthouses in the more remote regions where there is no possibility of anything but a short season. Bord Fáilte are doing everything in their power to extend the season, to encourage people who are able to come in May and June and in September and October to do so. Much has been done by the regional companies in that respect and, of course, the profitability of hotels arising from fresh investment depends upon the total bed occupancy during a given total length of season.

At the present time, Bord Fáilte adjust the grants for hotel accommodation in relation to particular areas and they are prepared to make larger grants available than would normally be the case for new hotels and new guesthouses in the more remote areas, particularly in the west. There is a degree of flexibility exercised by Bord Fáilte in this matter.

Senator FitzGerald mentioned a figure of as high as 50 per cent to be given in the form of grants, presumably for the same purpose as is now the case, namely, for bedroom accommodation, for baths, central heating, staff accommodation and entertainment facilities within the hotel or guesthouse. That would be a very high grant, indeed, particularly when the five-year, interest-free grant or loans is added to it. If it were capitalised, I am sure the figure would run to 60 per cent.

Nevertheless, this question of the scope of grants is constantly under review but for the moment the existing grant system is the one which applies and I hope there will be a response from intending applicants to such an extent that we can see hotel accommodation increase in the way Senator FitzGerald has described as being so essential. There is also the staff problem, and CERT, the training body for the tourist authority, have arranged for the training of a considerable number of new personnel of every kind. It is a fact that the short season hotel provides employment which is not particularly attractive in some areas, but on the other hand, there are areas around Ireland where the people come in from surrounding farms and appear to have organised their economy to the fact of the short season hotel operating in the area. They seem to be fairly satisfied. The whole rural economy has been in some ways altered to meet this situation. I do not think short season employment is at all undesirable in certain areas of the country where, as I said, it can be associated with farming and other occupations.

Senator FitzGerald raised the question of the building of new hotels as compared with the expansion of existing accommodation. I think it is true to say that Bord Fáilte prefer to see existing accommodation expanded rather than necessarily favouring new hotels in particular areas for obvious reasons. I also hope that the chain hotel system will grow in strength. There are a great number of hotel chains in Europe in which there can be quite important reductions in overhead expenditure through having purchases made in common by a number of hotels. We have that system developing here on a smaller scale, the leader in this field is the OIE chain. For hotels engaged in package travel arrangements and in motor coach travel, the chain development is promising.

Senator FitzGerald raised the question of whether the Bord Fáilte target over the next five years of an additional 1,500 rooms in hotels, plus 500 rooms of other types in guesthouses, holiday camps and so on, is rather exaggerated. The target is a flexible one but it is based on what Bord Fáilte believe to be the present need and it is based, in part, on the tremendous growth of the car ferry business. Unregistered accommodation is also being sought by the regional companies and they have three main objectives at the moment. They are the provision of information offices, a general assessment of the tourist potential in the area, and then the search for unregistered accommodation and encouraging people to come into the business and then referring them to Bord Fáilte so that their accommodation can be inspected.

Senator FitzGerald also asked whether OIE was examining the position in regard to the part they can play in expanding hotel accommodation. They are so doing. It is a question to be examined as to whether OIE should go further into the hotel business, either by erecting motels or hotels of the moderately priced grade and that matter is under consideration.

Senator O'Kennedy raised the question of whether there was sufficient accommodation in the area of the medieval tour. So far as I am aware, there has been a considerable increase in accommodation in Limerick and in the hotel at the airport more bedrooms are being built this year to cater for the increased number of visitors taking the medieval tour.

Senator O'Kennedy also raised the question of whether package tours were encouraged sufficiently by Bord Fáilte. The answer is that they are. They invite travel agents to this country from the USA and Great Britain to see the country for themselves. They attend conferences of travel agency wholesalers in Great Britain and in the USA and give them the fullest possible particulars so that they themselves can make up package tours to this country.

Senator Honan and Senator O'Kennedy spoke of the problems of providing staff for hotels and suggested that there should be more consideration given to the establishment of hotels with a fair degree of self service involved. Bord Fáilte are very willing to consider any proposition for motels, hotels with self service steak bars or any type of hotel organisation where the amount of labour is reduced, particularly in areas where it is difficult to obtain.

Senators McDonald, O'Sullivan, Cole and Sheehy Skeffington raised the question of hotel prices, hotel grading and the quality of food provided. Bord Fáilte have warned the hotel organisation of Ireland that they must be careful not to charge excessive prices. That has been made absolutely clear and I myself have spoken about it. A great many of the complaints last year related to the excessive prices charged for snacks and miscellaneous meals. This was exemplified by one Senator who spoke about three sandwiches for 9/-, which obviously is an extortionate charge. I have gone through the hotel guide books of at least three or four countries and compared them with the Bord Fáilte hotel guide book. I agree with the Financial Times who published two reports at yearly intervals. They compared the prices of first and second grade hotels in most European countries. Indeed, in the Financial Times analysis it is quite clear that we are not making excessive charges. We are somewhere near or just above the level of the countries where, admittedly, charges are considerably lower than here, namely, Portugal, Spain and Greece.

Dr. Sheehy Skeffington

Would the Minister give the date of that Financial Times?

Mr. Childers

I am afraid I cannot. I do not remember when it was but it cleared up any excessive charging in a general way. There are obviously exceptions to that.

Mr. O'Quigley

Could the Minister publicise that more widely? There is a feeling we are killing the goose which lays the golden egg. It might be a good thing to give wide publicity to that.

Mr. Childers

I do not know whether Senator FitzGerald saw that. It has been published twice this year. It cannot be quite irresponsible.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

I think it may be a valid comparison for some hotels, but there is a certain feeling in the industry that Bord Fáilte have not done enough to deal with complaints —which are unjustified in some cases— of overcharging that appeared in the newspapers. One or two of the complaints that appeared in the English newspapers were simply untrue or misleading and they have not been dealt with. There may also be cases in which they are justified but they should be dealt with when they are completely untrue or misleading.

Mr. Childers

Bord Fáilte deal methodically with every complaint placed before them and in the majority of cases, I think, get satisfaction from the hotel owners if they are wrong.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

I think the Minister misunderstands me. My point is that allegations of overcharging published in British newspapers which were shown to be untrue and misleading— and which Bord Fáilte indeed accepted as untrue—should have been nailed. Bord Fáilte should have written to the British papers if a mistake was made or if there was an error of some kind. There is some feeling in the hotel industry that Bord Fáilte have not done enough to refute complaints which were untrue or false. It should have been publicised in other countries that they were untrue.

Mr. Childers

Part of this question relates to the productivity of hotels, and that relates to how far the equipment is modern, particularly in the kitchens and the arrangements for moving linen. It also relates to the productivity of the staff and that, in turn, relates to the extent to which they have been methodically trained. Bord Fáilte are doing everything they can to encourage hotel proprietors to make use of the most modern methods, and to contact advisory consultants if necessary for that purpose.

I want to make it clear that Bord Fáilte do not control hotel prices. What they do insist on is that the hotel which is registered, the hotel whose name appears in the guide, must state its prices, and if they charge seasonal prices during a particular period this must also be stated. Anyone who goes to that hotel during the Horse Show, for instance, need be under no illusion about prices, if it is stated clearly in the guide that the prices would be higher at some times than others.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington asked why hotel prices were higher during the Horse Show or other similar festivals. I think this is a question of demand and supply. I do not think there is anything Bord Fáilte could do. That is the simple straight answer.

Mr. Rooney

Would the Minister not agree that when substantial State grants are paid Bord Fáilte should have a say in determining the prices?

Mr. Childers

That would be enormously complicated. All Bord Fáilte can do is see that an hotel which does not live up to the prices it charges will not receive the grading that would be implied by the charges made. I do not see what more they could do. It would require an enormous staff for Bord Fáilte to actually control hotel prices. I may say that the whole accountancy system in regard to hotel keeping is at a very primitive stage indeed. The number of hotels that keep accounts which distinguish between profit made on bedrooms, on the provision of food, and on the provision of drink, is extremely small. That is now in a developing stage.

Senator Murphy suggested that when an hotel reaches a particular grade it tends to stay in that grade, and that if the standard of the hotel drops, nothing is done about it. Bord Fáilte are prepared to downgrade hotels where necessary. In 1964-65 they downgraded 22 hotels and three guesthouses, and upgraded 22 hotels and 16 guesthouses. It is equally true to say that Bord Fáilte give a considerable length of time to hotels to improve their position when the quality of their service or accommodation is found wanting in relation to the grade in which they are classified.

Senator Murphy also asked whether the grading system is directed to the quality of service and the administration of the hotel. The answer is that the Board take into account the quality of the service provided and the management standard. Registration regulations are again being revised this year to place even more emphasis on the aspects of quality of service and management standard.

Senator Sheehy Skeffington spoke about the importance of An Óige and I agree with him with all the emphasis I can command. Bord Fáilte are now providing grants for extensions of this accommodation. It is the objective of An Óige to spread the field of accommodation more widely. A reasonable number of hostels have been opened in areas where there was virtually no accommodation of any kind available.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

The Minister seems to be moving away from prices and I wonder could I bring him back to the point I made? There is a feeling in the industry that Bord Fáilte in their plans for new accommodation have set their sights a bit too high and that what we need is something below that. The feeling is that Bord Fáilte are pushing for high cost accommodation and are then inclined to criticise prices.

Mr. Childers

The Senator was absent from the House when I commenced speaking and I referred first to the point he raised. I said that I have given a perfectly clear directive to Bord Fáilte requesting them to encourage particularly the development of moderate priced accommodation. I think the Senator must have misunderstood what the Bord Fáilte representative said at whatever meeting he was present at, because the new grants offered at the beginning of 1964 were expressly designed to attract moderate priced hotel keepers.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

If the Minister has an opportunity he should read the minutes of the conference and he will find that there was a prolonged debate on it. I think Bord Fáilte should reconsider the rather high level they are aiming at.

Mr. Childers

It may be a question of what the relative level is. As the Senator knows, there is a difference between low-priced A class hotels and high-priced A class hotels. Low-priced A class accommodation in some cases is barely different from high-priced B class accommodation. I do not know whether there was some misunderstanding but I shall certainly inquire. Bord Fáilte have given grants to guesthouses for the first time, with my encouragement, and they have offered loans free of interest for five years to guesthouses.

Senator Murphy, Senator O'Sullivan and Senator Sheehy Skeffington also raised the question of encouraging students to come here. Bord Fáilte have a complete section which deals with students. Several thousand students came here last year. Grants are available from the Board for residential schools or similar institutions which are prepared to accommodate student groups and other visitors during the summer vacation period. The grant amounts to 20 per cent of the cost of structural alterations such as the improvement of rooms or dormitories, but this movement is going very slowly. Apparently the schools are reluctant to provide such accommodation because of the difficulty of securing staff during the school holiday period. I hope this will catch on gradually. Bord Fáilte are very anxious to encourage parties of students who would come here during the holidays and stay in some of our schools and colleges.

Senator Mrs. Ahern spoke of the importance of farmhouse accommodation. Some 94 farmhouses have been listed by Bord Fáilte and several hundred have been inspected. A certain standard has obviously to be observed, and if Senator Mrs. Ahern will read the British, Scottish and Welsh Farmhouse Guide to Accommodation, she will realise immediately that the same standards must be observed. We must provide nothing less modest than is provided by a Scottish crofter, and I hope that farmhouse guesthouses will continue to develop on an expanding scale.

Senator O'Quigley spoke of the necessity for providing fresh vegetables and also good bacon in hotels. I entirely agree. I have spoken on this matter several times when I have had an opportunity of meeting chefs and on other occasions.

Senator Cole spoke about twice cooked ham and referred to the price of snacks. I entirely agree with him, and I would like to make an appeal to all hotels who serye turkey and ham during the year apart from Christmas to raise the standard of the method of cooking turkey and ham, because there is room for improvement, as everybody knows who has partaken of this dish during summer.

Mr. O'Quigley

The Minister might also deal with reheated chicken.

Mr. Childers

A number of Senators —Senators Honan, Miss Davidson, O'Quigley and I think some others— spoke of the whole question of preserving the beauty of this country. That, as the House knows, relates largely to the plans that will be made under the Planning Act, 1963, and I hope that all Members of the House both in their parliamentary capacity and in their private capacity will do all they can to encourage the right kind of thinking on this subject. There are very few people who are trained in landscape planning, and apart from the right kind of feeling and right mental attitude towards preserving the beauty of our country this also needs planning. There are very few landscape planners in Ireland, and there is a necessity for seeing that some of the officers of county councils get at least some kind of course in landscape planning. This is a tremendously difficult problem, because while it is absolutely true, as Senator Sheehy Skeffington states, that there must be areas of the country left completely free of building in very isolated corners there has obviously to be development at the same time in certain areas. The question of restricting development to particular areas is one that involves very careful planning indeed.

Just to give one example, you have the Lakes of Killarney. About 20 years from now the Lakes of Killarney will be even more fantastically beautiful than they are today because of the complete lack of planning in connection with a great many lakes all over Europe, although planning is now taking place for example in the areas around some of the Bavarian Lakes. There are some ultra purists who say that no hotel should be built in future on the edge of Killarney Lakes, that they should all be put one-third or half a mile away in the woods behind. This is an example of an extreme attitude. If one could designate, say, four miles of the total length of the Killarney Lakes where hotels of proper standard could be built with guesthouses in a kind of semi-circle facing on the shore, still at the end of 20 years from now Killarney would be a place absolutely unique as compared with most of the coastline of Europe and a great many of the lakes. That is what I mean by careful planning.

The same thing applies to many of our very beautiful beaches. Take the Ballinskelligs beach in Kerry. Some Senators know it very well. What you need to avoid is a series of ghastly shacks and bungalows scattered along the whole beach, and to reserve a particular area for some building. The same thing would apply to Lough Corrib. The present county manager of Galway will not allow any houses to be built on the shore because he wants to ensure a proper plan. Corrib is quite big enough to permit some building along certain stretches of the shore, and if some areas are permitted for building it will still be one of the most beautiful lakes in the country and still could be associated with the isolation, solitude and grandeur mentioned by Senator Sheehy Skeffington and others.

All this requires very careful planning and the right attitude on the part of the public concerned. For that reason I am very glad that Members of the House have welcomed the section of the Bill dealing with control over caravan parks. Whereas, as many Senators have said, caravan parks can completely wreck a landscape, there again there have to be some caravan parks. It is possible to find places where caravan parks will not ruin the landscape, particularly if we wait for eight or nine years while some quick growing pine trees are planted and in nine years' time the caravan park, even if visible from the shore or from some mountain vantage point, will be invisible once the trees have grown a sufficient height. I mention that as an instance of what might be described as forward planning.

One Senator spoke about whether we have any good taste in this country. One can answer it in this way, that there are countries with a long history of freedom that claim they have created a great deal of the artistic taste of the world and certainly of Europe, where one can see the most terrible examples of bad taste in design of every description. I will not mention the countries, but I am sure that many members of the House have been to those countries and have seen bad taste in art, in souvenirs and everything else. I think it is true to say that we all need to be humble and learn what is good taste. We do not necessarily acquire it automatically. This whole question relates to the general education given to the people of this country and is of very great importance to us in the future. Nevertheless, Bord Fáilte are doing their best both in connection with design of hotel architecture and also in connection with souvenirs. As the House knows, there is a souvenirs section in Bord Fáilte and a great effort has been made to bring about improved taste in the souvenirs sold to tourists. I think it is true that, although there are plenty of souvenirs in extremely poor taste, if a tourist wants to buy a souvenir in good taste he can do so.

With reference to maps, there are splendid maps available from public and private sources. Though there may be some need for improvement, if you look at all the maps available for tourists provided by private publishers, by the petrol companies, by the ordnance survey and in numerous guides, I think you will find that we are fairly well off in the production of maps.

With reference to signposting, Bord Fáilte spends about £10,000 a year on signposts, and advanced signposting as suggested by Senator Sheey Skeffington is extending gradually. Many of the towns along the main roads are now included so that the tourist can see what town he is approaching. We are now beginning the provision of signposting of complete routes in a particular area following the example of the Ring of Kerry. There is one in the Malin Head Peninsula in Donegal already offering a circular route marked by one sign which can be followed by the tourist with ease.

Senator O'Kennedy raised the question whether we have enough castles for tourist purposes. The answer is that we are getting two more castles in addition to Bunratty in which to entertain tourists, so that we are going ahead in that direction.

Senator D.J. O'Sullivan raised the question of information offices: 68 are now open and more will be needed. Some, I think, have been placed perhaps in areas where they are not so necessary as in others. I think the regional managers will have to examine very carefully the placing of information offices but I agree with the Senator that they are essential. All this requires more money and Senator O'Sullivan could bear in mind that if the Ivernia Tourist Company had the same funds available to it as, say, the Umbria Tourist Company in Italy in relation to the expenditure on tourism in the area I believe the receipts of the Ivernia Tourist Company would be at least £120,000 a year. As we do not have tourist taxes in this country, as suggested by Senator Sheehy-Skeffington, there is no other way of getting the money that I know of except to persuade the local authorities that the more tourists who come the easier it would be for the greater part of the community to pay their rates. But the regional tourist companies are performing their duties adequately.

As I have said, in a considerable number of countries where the people are not millionaires but are ordinary people, such as in the province of Umbria in Italy, they consider that the expenditure of two per cent of the local tourist expenditure for promotional and other purposes each year is a commercial business, exactly as a soap company will consider it advisable to spend a given sum of money in a given area for the purpose of selling its soap. We are only now beginning to appreciate the need for regional development and I hope the funds will grow in time. Of course, Bord Fáilte are supplementing the funds raised locally by the regional tourist companies on a very considerable scale at the present time.

Senator O'Kennedy raised the question, again, of the importance of castles and other monuments in attracting tourists. Of course, in that connection, our own people should be attracted to see the ancient historic monuments of the country. There is a committee operating with representatives of Bord Fáilte, my Department and the Board of Works to improve the amenities and the characteristics of some of the more important castles and abbeys which are of great historic importance.

Senator O'Kennedy also raised the question of behaviour at festivals. Bord Fáilte obviously cannot control drunkenness at festivals. That is a matter which must be the responsibility of local authorities.

Senator O'Sullivan raised a very interesting question—that was the scope of prizes offered in connection with the "Tidy Towns" competition which has proved so tremendously acceptable. I have asked Bord Fáilte to re-allocate the prizes in the coming year so as to give more encouragement to new entrants and even to towns and regions which have not yet gained a prize, so that they will not feel they are unable to keep up to the level of some towns or villages which have gone away ahead of them. I have asked Bord Fáilte to reconsider that matter although, at the present time, there are special prizes for new entries and for towns which have made the greatest improvement in a given year. I hope Bord Fáilte will be able to consider some method by which the towns which are far down in the list can be encouraged to go on working towards achieving a level at which they can get a prize.

Senator Mrs. Ahern raised the importance of traditional Irish entertainment, Irish singing and dancing, in each area. That is a matter largely for local development associations, for the regional companies, but I understand Bord Fáilte has been in touch with Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann in order to see what can be done to bring them, again, into a position whereby they can co-ordinate with the hotels in each area so as to ensure that there is a good programme of Irish singing and dancing during the tourist season. I have always stressed this and I agree with what the Senator says about how much tourists are attracted to our traditional song and dance.

Senator Mrs. Ahern suggested that there be some kind of memorandum published for "Do's and Don'ts" for those who intend to have guests. I think it is a very good idea and I will recommend it to Bord Fáilte.

Senator FitzGerald raised the question of the attitude taken by the Government and my Department in relation to a private venture for running a car ferry, especially between Rosslare and a port on the Welsh coast. The answer is—to be quite frank about it—the agreement between CIE and the western region of British Railways, in regard to the operations of the Fishguard Harbour and Shipping Services which was jointly run by CIE and British Railways and which involved our spending £125,000 for building a road out to Rosslare Pier, was an essential development. We feel that that should be allowed to go ahead in the first instance and, as we have bought the British and Irish Steampacket Company and as Irish Shipping Limited have now acquired Palgrave Murphy, we felt we had done enough in the way of investment in shipping companies for the time being. This proposition can be looked at anew on another occasion if we felt that was desirable and in the public interest.

Senator FitzGerald also asked about car ferry services from the continent to Ireland. There has been a study made by one particular commercial interest in this regard but nothing more has eventuated for the moment. The Cherbourg-Dublin car ferry service has not, so far, brought very much car traffic inwards but it has brought a lot of traffic outwards. I think, perhaps, we will have to do more promotion in Europe generally to interest those who might make use of a large car ferry vessel coming from the continent to Ireland, who are always willing to discuss the matter and, perhaps, give support through the provision of the necessary car promoters if we thought the service would be economic. We do not subsidise shipping operations between here and the continent. Our obligations under OECD and the International Maritime Organisation make it impossible for us to do this. Therefore, we think the point is met.

Mr. Garret FitzGerald

If, in fact, the Minister is inhibited in that way— which I was not aware of—would he consider encouraging Irish industry to develop these services if this is not being done by continental sources? Why not put up our own service if we want to sell Ireland abroad?

Mr. Childers

I have encouraged Irish Shipping to make a survey but, so far, nothing has eventuated which would appear to be favourable.

I think Senator O'Sullivan had a point when he stressed the necessity of giving due notice to travel agents if the passenger service charges are to be increased. I think he is absolutely right.

Senator Murphy spoke about the non-availability of weekend inclusive tourist fares from Aer Lingus. It would be utterly uneconomical for Aer Lingus to offer such fares on scheduled services at weekends owing to the heavy demand on normal seating capacity. The air fares are determined internationally by EATA and Aer Lingus are obliged to charge the agreed fares. Of course, Aer Lingus, as far as possible, make aircraft available on charter for tours and some of these tours will be operated at weekends during the coming summer. I do not impose any restrictions at Irish airports on foreign aircraft operating tours to our airports, subject to compliance with certain routine conditions. I think I have answered virtually every question put to me during this constructive debate.

Miss Davidson

The Minister did not deal with the subject I raised.

Mr. Childers

I am afraid this is a matter for the sanitary officers of Dublin Corporation. I do not think it is a question on which Bord Fáilte could intervene. They can only recommend and speak in general about good sanitation in local areas. They cannot give grants for better sanitary services. It would seem this is a matter for Dublin Corporation and I am afraid Bord Fáilte cannot do anything about it.

Miss Davidson

Could the Minister? Is not a Government Department responsible?

Mr. Childers

I do not know.

Miss Davidson

That is my difficulty.

Mr. Childers

If the Senator raises the matter with the Department of Finance they may be able to find out whether a Government Department are responsible for the nuisance she says exists.

Miss Davidson

Is the Civil Service Dining Club a State body?

Mr. Childers

No. The Club is run privately by the Civil Service.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill considered in Committee.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2.

Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."

Professor Quinlan

It is time something was done about regulating camping sites and caravan sites. The Minister has taken a right step in this Bill but I feel local powers should be extended at our resorts. The idea of airport service charges has now come to be accepted by all of us and I suggest that local bodies at resorts should be given the right to levy a charge on cars using the resort during weekends. A few hundred pounds raised in that way would be very useful for improving the amenities at the resort. It would provide what local development committees need as a backing for their work. I should like the Minister to comment on this and perhaps he could extend his thinking further along those lines.

Mr. Childers

I have not been able to convince anyone that any kind of tourist tax is desirable. I have had my own views about it for a considerable period but I am afraid I am in a very tiny minority. I may as well tell the truth to the Senator. There is a large body of responsible opinion which states truly that 75 per cent of our tourists come from Great Britain, that they speak the same language as we do, that they like to consider us as being different from practically every country in Europe where they charge one, two or three different levies at the bottom of restaurant, hotel and garage bills. There is a great deal to be said for that and I cannot get any other view. It is the view held overwhelmingly and I bow to it.

Professor Quinlan

My suggestion is not aimed directly at tourists. It is just a local amenity contribution. Ordinary families who on a weekend or on a Sunday go to the beach in their cars and use parking facilities and are looking for better facilities would contribute, if there were means by which they could do so, by paying a parking fee, thus helping to provide much needed help for the local effort.

Mr. Childers

I am still defeated by the Senator. I do not know enough about local government law to know to what extent local authorities can levy tolls of that description or to what extent local development associations may do it. I feel sure there are experts in the Seanad who could inform the Senator. It is beyond me.

Professor Quinlan

Surely a reputable body should be entitled to charge for a parking lot?

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 3 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Question proposed "That section 6 stand part of the Bill".

Professor Quinlan

Here we are proposing to make very substantial sums of money, in non-repayable grants, available to encourage and develop the tourist industry. I am not over-happy with the Minister's reply that there seems to be enough emphasis on the question of lengthening the holiday season. Apart from the type of casual work that the tourist trade provides for students, for ordinary rank and file workers it is a very poor form of employment, one that most offers only the prospect of four to five months' employment and after that, for many, it is the boat. The hotel manager has to start the following season with a new group of workers. I feel——

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair cannot allow this discussion on the lines being proceeded with so far.

Professor Quinlan

We are voting millions of pounds and I am asking guidance on how these millions are being spent. I am not happy at the moment that sufficient emphasis is focussed on this very necessary extension.

An Cathaoirleach

Senators will remember that there is a difference between the Second Stage of a Bill and the Committee Stage.

Professor Quinlan

With due deference to the Chair, I accept his ruling but surely here we are concerned in one section with increasing expenditure from £1 million to £3¼ million. I should like a ruling as to whether the spending of that arises under this section.

An Cathaoirleach

The whole case for Second Reading discussion cannot be raised on this section.

Professor Quinlan

If you feel that way, I bow to your ruling but I find it very strange that we can hand out millions without passing some judgment on its proper spending.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

It is a pity the Senator was not here for the Second Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 7 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.