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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Jun 1966

Vol. 61 No. 10

Credit Union Bill, 1966: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to make suitable legislative provision for the registration of societies known as credit unions. It originated with the report of the Committee on Co-operative Societies, published in February, 1964, which contained a special chapter on credit unions. A credit union is defined in section 2 of the Bill as a co-operative society consisting of individuals having a common bond and formed for the purpose of promoting thrift among the members, creating a source of credit for them at a fair and reasonable rate of interest and using and controlling their savings for their mutual benefit. This kind of financial institution is well known in other parts of the world as a special form of co-operative effort and there has been widespread demand for a suitable charter for it in this country.

The first co-operative credit society was founded in Germany in 1849 for the purpose of combating usury. Societies of this kind became very popular on the Continent and in 1900 the first North American equivalent was set up in Quebec. Enabling legislation was enacted in that province in 1906 and the credit union idea quickly spread in Canada. The pooling of financial resources through the medium of credit unions played a significant part in arresting the economic depression in certain Canadian provinces in the 1930s.

By 1934 Credit Union laws had been passed in 39 of the United States and a Federal Credit Union Act became law in that year. The United States credit unions also promoted in that year the Credit Union National Association and a mutual insurance society with the object of providing suitable services for credit unions. The Credit Union National Association now promotes the Credit Union movement all over the world and one of its representatives visited Ireland in 1959 to give evidence before the Committee on Co-operative Societies. In the credit union movement it is the practice for each country to have its own national league and, accordingly, the Credit Union League of Ireland was set up around this time and it was admitted to membership of the Credit Union National Association in November, 1961.

By the end of 1964, as indicated by the Yearbook of the Credit Union National Association, there were credit unions in all of the United States, in all provinces of Canada, in Central and South America, in certain Pacific countries and also in several European, African and Asian countries. The movement now has a total membership of about 30,000,000 persons and assets in the region of £5,000 million. The total number of individual Credit Unions is about 50,000, so that the average asset for each unit is about £100,000. Impressive as these statistics are the movement is by no means static and continuing annual advances of striking dimensions seem to be inevitable.

There have, of course, been loan societies of one kind or another in this country for a very long time. Under the Friendly Societies Acts special provision was made in the last quarter of the nineteenth century for the registration of societies formed for the purpose of creating funds by monthly or other subscriptions to be lent out to, or invested for the members of the society. From the point of view of administration and finance, societies formed for this purpose were on the whole extremely unsatisfactory, particularly in the case of non-agricultural loan societies. In 1917 the authority for the registration of loan societies was withdrawn and replaced by a new one which was limited to societies formed to grant loans for agricultural purposes. Since that time, therefore, it has not been permissible to register non-agricultural loan societies, but those which were established prior to August, 1917, were allowed to continue in business and there are now 23 of them on the register with total membership of about 20,000 persons.

As regards agricultural credit societies, the first of these was formed in 1894 and was quickly followed by a large number of others. In 1914 a Commission on co-operative credit drew attention to a number of inadequacies in the operations of these societies. They put forward certain recommendations to rectify the position, but war broke out before any action could be taken on their report. A later Commission on Agriculture endorsed these recommendations in an interim report on credit which was issued in 1923.

In 1927, however, the Agricultural Credit Corporation was set up under the Agricultural Credit Act of that year and this seemed to create in the minds of many people the idea that there would be no point in establishing further societies of this kind in the private sphere. No new agricultural credit societies have been registered under the Friendly Societies Acts since 1928 and there are now only seven such societies actually operating.

In paragraph 125 of their report the recent Committee on Co-operative Societies stated that having considered the whole question they were of opinion that savings and loan societies conducted on the credit union plan, with proper safeguards, would be a useful form of co-operative effort. They pointed out, however, that with the withdrawal of the statutory authority in 1917 for the formation of loan societies other than those in the agricultural sphere, various legal difficulties stand in the way of the formation of credit unions in this country. They recommended, accordingly, that the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts should be suitably amended in order to make provision for the registration of credit unions. In paragraph 128 of their report they set out in some detail the kind of provisions which they feel should apply to Credit Unions and this Bill follows generally the lines indicated by the Committee.

The Committee recommended that in any legislation to deal with these societies provision should be made for supervision by some authority other than the individual societies. This should involve, they felt, surprise inspections and also instruction and organisational assistance. The aim should be to have supervision provided by a representative organisation as soon as possible but in the early stages the cost might, they thought, have to be borne by the State. Since the report was published the credit union movement has expanded rapidly in this country mainly through the work of the Credit Union League of Ireland. There are, at present, about 140 credit unions here with assets of about a million and a half pounds. Individual unions which wish to become affiliated to the league must comply with the League's requirements. It is the intention of the League to employ suitably qualified personnel whose job it will be to make the kind of inspections which were envisaged in the report of the Committee on Co-operative Societies. The need for interim supervisory arrangements on the part of the State has, therefore, been obviated as the ideal form of control by a representative organisation on the lines which the committee had in mind is now developing.

For these reasons I have drawn up this Bill on the basis that the credit union movement should be allowed to regulate its own affairs as far as possible. I have no doubt that the Credit Union League of Ireland with the assistance of the international credit union organisations will keep a watchful eye on all credit union activities in this country and that it can be relied upon to take all necessary steps to protect the interests of the public.

However, we cannot ignore the fact that the history of credit societies in this country in the past has been unhappy. Senators will, I think, agree that any legislation dealing with organisations of this kind which handle money should be tightly drawn and should provide ample powers to deal with any undesirable situation that may arise. This Bill does, in fact, contain many such provisions. There are many detailed safeguards and restrictions of one kind or another interspersed throughout the Bill, but I should like to refer in particular to the specific provision in section 12 for the establishment by each credit union of a supervisory committee. The function of this committee is to oversee the activities of the directors and other officers, and the manner in which this function is to be discharged is set out in section 17. There are ample clauses designed to ensure that the supervisory committee will be be independent of the other officers of the credit union and will be in a position to carry out its duties adequately. It will be necessary, of course to maintain some public supervision also and I should like to draw attention in this connection to section 27 of the Bill which provides for the establishment by me of the Credit Union Advisory Committee. This will be a body of persons having a knowledge of matters of significance in relation to credit unions, who will keep an eye on general developments in this field and advise the Minister for Industry and Commerce as to any action he should take to safeguard the interests of the public. Senators will also notice the power given by section 33 of the Bill to the Registrar of Friendly Societies to petition the High Court for an order to wind up a credit union if it is unable to pay its debts or wilfully violates the provisions of the law.

It should not be forgotten, of course, that the Industrial and Provident Societies Act, 1893, into which this Bill is being written, already contains a number of provisions which will assist in ensuring proper supervision of the activities of credit unions. Section 20 of that Act will require each Credit Union to submit to the Registrar of Friendly Societies an annual return in the prescribed form. Under section 18 of that Act there is provision for the inspection of the books of a society by an accountant or actuary appointed by the registrar, while section 50 provides for a full investigation of the affairs of the society. Finally, the Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) Act, 1913, requires every society to have its accounts audited by public auditors appointed by the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

To a substantial extent the Bill is modelled on the legislation prevailing in other countries where the credit union movement has been a success and where failures have been rare. A considerable amount of technical drafting difficulty was encountered in fitting legislation on these into the Industrial and Provident Societies Acts. This has given rise to some delay in producing the Bill, but I am satisfied that we now have before us a set of provisions which will give a suitable basis for regulating the affairs of credit unions in accordance with the principles accepted internationally in relation to these bodies. It is hardly necessary for me to mention that the Bill has already been examined in detail in the Dáil where many amendments were made to meet points put forward by the Credit Union League of Ireland and other persons involved in the credit union movement, and also to give effect to suggestions offered by Deputies representing all parties in the House.

The figures which I have mentioned earlier in dealing with the magnitude of the credit union movement will give some idea of the economic significance of this particular kind of financial institution. It would be very hard to forecast just how rapid the growth of these societies will be in Ireland, but perhaps it is not unrealistic to contemplate the possibility that we will have 1,000 credit unions here in a reasonable space of time, bearing in mind especially that the urge amongst the public at large to become involved in this kind of co-operative endeavour has already lead to the establishment of 140 societies even in the absence of suitable legislation. Taking even half the world average and assigning an asset value of £50,000 to each credit union, we would arrive at a figure of £50,000,000 in total assets of these societies. Even in this age of noughts and millions this would be quite an important statistic in our economic tables.

It has been suggested that, in general, savings are a residual and that it is well-nigh impossible to extract more of them from the public even if new media and new institutions are established. If we adopted this defeatist attitude, I suppose we would not bother at all with legislation in connection with credit unions. From my own knowledge of rural affairs, however, I am quite convinced that the promotion of credit unions will give rise to a substantial volume of new savings that would otherwise not come into being, apart altogether from bringing into useful circulation idle funds at present rather uselessly hoarded in all kinds of strange places. I gather from remarks made by my colleagues in the Dáil that something similar can be expected in the case of urban and suburban credit unions.

Some time ago the Minister for Finance found it necessary to establish a working party on savings in the hope of turning up something that would help to restrain the propensity to spend which has been causing us so many aches and pains in recent years. This Bill was already in existence at that time and did not come within the terms of reference of the Working Party. I am satisfied, however, that a well-run credit union movement can do more to rectify this kind of problem than almost any other device that can be thought of. I say this because education is the very basis of the credit union movement, which sets out to demonstrate to the public the meaning and purpose of money and how to manage it better. People who have had any worthwhile contact with credit unions are unlikely to be taken so easily by the inducements to spend, even the "easy" way, with which they are being constantly and sedulously bombarded; the basic financial arithmetic which they will learn from their credit union will, rather, impress upon them the need to spend their money as wisely as possible, to have funds available for normal contingencies, to save for the rainy day, and to procure credit at the lowest possible terms when it is necessary for them to borrow. And, what is more important, it will provide them with the means to achieve all these things.

The Credit Union League of Ireland, whose representatives I have had the pleasure of meeting, would be the first to remind us that credit unions also have a very important social purpose. Their object is to provide machinery by which people can help each other. It is not a form of business activity which will enable the few to make profits at the expense of the many, but rather a co-operative enterprise in which all concerned can participate for their mutual benefit. We have all heard of the unfortunates who have suffered at the hands of moneylenders and hire-purchase companies of the less reputable kind. We all know that, for one reason or another, a large part of the population cannot gain access to normal banking facilities. And those of us who have any volume at all of letters from the public will know that when a poor man really needs money he must often pay through the nose for it. These are all social evils and we can, I believe, hope that the credit union movement will help to eliminate them.

I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for his clear and informative opening statement. It was very interesting in that it told us the background of the movement as well as what is in the Bill. We are very happy to welcome the Bill. It is a great thing that this movement has now reached the point where legislation is being brought in to give it a firm foundation. The benefits, social, financial and economic to the country which may flow from it could be very substantial. The Parliamentary Secretary himself is very hopeful when he says that there may be as many as 1,000 of these unions in the country before long. This would involve a very substantial volume of savings.

This is of great importance to us. Part of our present difficulties are due to the fact that our savings have not been sufficient for the volume of investment requirements. The volume of investment has run ahead of the volume of savings. Anything that can generate additional savings will make a considerable difference to us in the years immediately ahead.

The only concern I have about the Bill relates to one aspect. There is a particular type of credit union operating here at the moment. It is a very useful activity organised by the Community Development Movement. They have 11 credit co-operatives registered at the moment and five others awaiting registration. In the case of those awaiting registration delay has been caused by an examination of the procedure and of the standard rules. This is an integrated movement—it has a central distribution co-operative and industrial co-operatives, and there are a number of trading groups. It acts according to a standard system with one board of directors. It keeps to the principle of charging the market price for goods and services they sell.

The credit co-operatives in this movement operate on the principle of charging the market rate which, in their view would lie somewhere about ten per cent for the kind of money they are providing. Members of the co-operatives benefit from the profits that accrue. They operate an interest rate which is somewhere between the bank rate and hire-purchase rates. The benefits of the profits are ploughed back.

Their approach is different from that of the credit union movement itself which operates on the diminishing balance method of one per cent per month interest on whatever is outstanding which averages out at six or seven per cent and is a good deal less than the rate which the Community Development Movement charge. It is a different system. The Community Development Movement prefer to work on the market rate and plough the profits back whereas the Credit Union League operate on the principle of not making a profit but of lending money to each other at this much lower rate.

Each of these systems has its merits. We should not do anything by legislation to prevent the spread of the Community Development Movement as well as that of the Credit Union League. As at present constituted this legislation is inimical to the Community Development Movement. Some amendment of the Bill would be required to cater for this group and ensure that they are not put out of business. The Bill as it is designed does not take account of this group. On Committee Stage I shall be raising this point in detail. I am raising it now as I feel I should point out my concern to the Parliamentary Secretary. We will be putting down certain amendments on Committee Stage.

Perhaps one solution would be to drop section 3 of the Bill or to modify section 3 and for the Community Development Movement to drop the word "union" from their title. They are now called "Credit Union Co-operatives" and they would be prepared to ease that problem by dropping the word "union". Probably some amendment of the Bill would do the trick by getting them out of the framework of the Bill and enabling them to continue in operation. It might be necessary as an alternative to amend the rules possibly also in relation to supervisory committees which the Community Development Movement do not have in the same way as the Credit Union League.

When the Parliamentary Secretary is replying I should be interested if he would indicate whether he feels he can meet this group and whether he feels it would be better to amend section 3 and get the Community Development people to remove the word "union" from the title of their credit co-operatives, or to eliminate the features in sections 11 and 12 which would be inimical to the successful operation of the credit co-operatives in the Community Development Movement. If the Parliamentary Secretary would advise us on this it would help us as regards putting down amendments on Committee Stage.

Apart from that small difficulty which I hope we will get over—it should not be impossible to get over it —this legislation is extremely welcome. It is a good thing that we have reached the stage where we are introducing legislation for a movement which is growing as rapidly as the credit union movement is.

The development of the credit union movement in this country could be described as a quiet revolution. No blaring of trumpets welcomed it, and only the foresight and persistence of public spirited men and women gave it its chance of survival, and built it up to what it now is—an accepted and dependable institution.

The credit unions function for the good of the people. Helpful voluntary workers will teach ordinary people the principles of sound saving and, when the need arises, will advise them on proper loan raising, thus imparting order and regularity to their savings, and dignity and self respect to their borrowing. This latter is an important function which protects the uninitiated from the dangers, to which the Parliamentary Secretary referred, of unscrupulous moneylenders with their exorbitant interest rates. We all know too many cases where homes and families have been broken up because of unwise borrowing from doubtful sources.

The Labour Party have sought this legislation over many years and we are glad to welcome the measure and to express our thanks to the Parliamentary Secretary for bringing in the Bill now before us. The credit unions themselves have pressed for legislation to give legal sanction to their activities. Membership of the credit unions has grown apace in recent years, and this must be of considerable value to the community as a whole, particularly as it encourages regular saving—a much needed virtue as we are not a saving people.

The credit union movement is a friendly, homely, organisation. Its officers are local men and women accepted for their approachability and their integrity. The whole business is carried on in an atmosphere of neighbourliness and mutual trust. It is for this reason that I should like to refer to a few points in the Bill which might, I fear, remove the important element of local community trust. I refer to the introduction of the law courts in what are surely matters capable of being handled by this movement which has proved itself so capable of carrying on its other functions.

It is a mistake that in section 5 and section 24 the district court, the High Court and even the Supreme Court, should come into this neighbourly happy movement. It seems to be a very heavy machinery to apply to simple, more or less domestic decisions of a purely voluntary organisation. I do not like law courts and there are very many people who have the same view. One often hears it said: "We are a most respectable family. We were never in the law courts in our lives."

I fear the shadow of the law over the credit unions except where it cannot be avoided. The credit union advisory committee would be fully capable of handling the matters with which sections 5 and 24 are concerned. I would ask the Minister to look at those sections and try to come to our point of view for the general good of the credit unions. The introduction of the law courts might drive away prospective members and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to preserve in the Bill the spirit and atmosphere of good neighbourliness and mutual aid without the gloom of suspicion of the law courts hanging over it.

Another point which I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to consider is that the credit unions do not appear to have any right or power to recover any debts due to them either before or after the passing of this Act. I find that on Committee Stage in the Dáil on section 7 the Parliamentary Secretary undertook to look further into the point before the Report Stage. He added and I quote from volume 222, No. 4, column 788 of the Official Report:

I would like to see a situation created where credit unions could, subject to the Statute of Limitations, sue for debts after the passing of this Bill which had been incurred before.

Deputy Chairman

Would the Senator move to report progress?

I have not very much more to say.

If the Bill is not likely to take very long and we could finish it within another quarter of an hour, I suggest we should finish it.

Could we have any indication of how many Senators wish to speak?

Senator Mrs. Ahern rose.

I suggest we sit until half past one to ensure that the Parliamentary Secretary has time to reply. I do not think it is likely to take that long.

The point I was making is one of considerable importance to credit unions but I could not trace any further mention of the matter on the later Stages in the Dáil. I should like to hear the Parliamentary Secretary's considered view of the proposal and whether he would now think of having it included in the measure. In this particular case I confess I cannot myself see any way of avoiding recourse to the law courts but I press the point for the Parliamentary Secretary's consideration.

I should like to join with the last two speakers in welcoming this measure which gives legal status to the credit union movement. At this stage it is appropriate that we should pay tribute to Miss Nora Herlihy and the other dedicated people who for so many years have been carrying on on their own and keeping the credit union going at the pace it has been going. I hope, when this measure is passed, that there will be more interest shown in the credit union movement and that voluntary business will take a more active interest in it.

The Irish Countrywomen's Association have been playing their part in this regard. That is something we should only expect from the Irish Countrywomen's Association as it favours the co-operative movement. The credit union movement is really co-operative saving. As Senator Garret FitzGerald said the habit of thrift and saving is rapidly disappearing and it seems to be "live and make merry for tomorrow we die". I hope, with the giving of legal status to this co-operative saving movement, that more people will be encouraged to save small amounts. That is the main reason for this credit union movement. It is not the amount saved that is important. It is the habit of saving. That is what the credit union wishes to encourage and from that point of view it could be regarded as the poor man's banking system. It is real Christian charity and practical patriotism to pool the small resources of the neighbourhood for the general good.

I like this aspect of pooling very much. It is a great boost for the morale of those who take part in the movement. I have been told that the number of defaulters in credit unions has been very little indeed. It is surprising in Ireland that even without this measure, the movement has not made more progress. It is nothing new to consider this idea of pooling our resources. We had it in the old days of the "meitheal" when labour was pooled. This is only modernisation of that idea. It is a pooling of money rather than of labour. It is not so much a hand out as a helping hand. I hope, when this Bill is passed, that the voluntary associations and every organised group in the country will get cracking and establish credit unions in their midst.

I am grateful to the House for their reception of this Bill and I thank the Senators who contributed to it for their remarks. Senator FitzGerald mentioned the possibility that the enactment of this Bill would in some way wipe out the community development movement. In regard to this I should like to mention that at no stage during the passage of the Bill in the Dáil did the community development movement approach me in regard to its provisions, that is until the Bill had virtually passed through the Dáil. In fact, I think it was on the very day that the Report and Final Stages were taken that the first approach was made by the representatives of the community development movement.

It was certainly not represented to me on that occasion that the Bill would have very serious adverse effects on the community development movement. I am in full agreement with the aims and objects of this movement. Accordingly, I undertake to look further into the two matters raised by Senator FitzGerald, having regard to what he has represented to me and to the House today. It will be necessary, of course, to have a consultation with the Credit Union Movement in regard to both of those items. It is only right to point out in regard to each of them that the Credit Union League and its parent body CUNA, like the efforts of the supervisory committee agency, are absolutely essential to the whole structure of credit unions. Secondly, with regard to the matter of interest, this is enshrined in the rules of credit unions throughout the world and is enshrined in the model rules approved by the Credit Union National Association. I am sure, therefore, Senator FitzGerald and the House will understand that it will be difficult at this stage to do anything with regard to the removal of the supervisory committee which is really a watchdog appointed by the members to watch over the activities of directors and officials. In effect, it is a kind of running audit on the affairs of the society.

In so far as interest rates are concerned, I do not wish in effect to abolish or seriously damage the Community Development Movement and I undertake to have discussions with representatives of the Movement and with the Credit Union League between now and Committee Stage. Senator Miss Davidson objected to the existence of things called courts. Being a lawyer, I do not quite share the Senator's views in regard to their operation. Perhaps they are gloomy places—I know many which are—but we should hesitate to view them with suspicion. The matters raised in regard to appeal to the district court were fully debated in the Dáil. The point raised by Senator Miss Davidson was raised there by a number of Deputies.

I held out then and I shall hold out here because there is an elementary principle of justice that if a genuine disagreement arises the person or persons entitled to decide who has the merit should not be one or other of the two parties. It is only right to point out that the appeal in all cases will be to the district court which is the cheapest possible form of law. It is stated in the Bill that the appellant shall merely state in writing the grounds of his appeal. The higher courts come into operation only if and when a question of law arises.

In the ordinary way, the question of whether a person should be admitted to membership or expelled from membership is something which is a matter of fact and of merit and unlikely to raise abstruse legal points. This Bill, therefore, provides the machinery whereby admission to membership and expulsion from membership are not merely fair and reasonable but shown to be fair and reasonable because it has been decided where necessary by independent tribunals. I do not expect that there will be many cases in respect of which the machinery will be used. That is already our experience in regard to credit unions: very few difficulties have arisen. One can imagine a type of busybody in a town or village whom it is desirable not to have in a credit union and there are occasions when power to expel might have to be used. However, as I have said this will be only very rarely.

Senator Miss Davidson also mentioned the point about the credit union not being able to sue for debts. That was covered in Report Stage in the Dáil by an amendment now incorporated in section 32 and I may say that some of the legal experts, other than myself that is, told me they had serious misgivings about whether the section was valid. I insisted, in any event, on the section going in and, accordingly, subject to the Statute of Limitations, credit union leagues will have power to sue for debts due and owing to them. I again thank the House for its reception of the Bill and look forward to seeing Senators discuss possible amendments on Committee Stage.

Acting Chairman

Next Stage?

Next Wednesday.

Will that give time for the consultations the Parliamentary Secretary says he will undertake and will it give time for the drafting of consequential amendments?

Would the House like a little longer?

No, the House is happy, but you must have two sets of consultations and prepare consequential amendments.

We should be able to do that because both groups are in Dublin.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 22nd June, 1966.
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