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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 1966

Vol. 61 No. 16

Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1966 (Certified Money Bill): Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The purpose of this Bill is to provide for the introduction with effect from 1st October, 1966, of a wholesale tax at the rate of five per cent. This tax will not apply to sales of food, medicines, clothing and fuel; commodities which are exempt from the existing turnover tax will enjoy exemption from the new tax as will items such as drink, tobacco and hydrocarbon oils, which already bear heavy duties. The Bill also contains a provision to enable other commodities to be exempted by order. Since the new tax will be selective it is necessary that it should operate at the wholesale rather than the retail level.

Section 1 contains the definitions necessary for interpretation purposes. Section 2 provides for the charging of the tax, with effect from 1st October, 1966, on moneys received after that date in respect of sales of goods (including goods sold before 1st October but not paid for until after that date). The corresponding tax on imports is imposed by section 11 of the Bill.

Section 3 specifies the persons accountable for the wholesale tax. They are:

(i) persons, other than manufacturers, whose wholesale sales of taxable goods exceed £500 a month;

(ii) manufacturers whose sales of taxable goods exceed £150 a month; and

(iii) retailers who purchase taxable goods in the quantities in which they are normally purchased by wholesale merchants.

There is also a provision, section 3 (3), whereby a manufacturer of exempt goods may be treated as an accountable person if he uses taxable goods in substantial quantities as materials in his business. The purpose of this provision is to enable such a person to be registered under section 4 of the Bill and thereby become entitled to obtain his materials at tax-free prices. The exemptions from the wholesale tax to which I have referred are covered by subsection (5) of section 3. These exemptions are set out in fairly broad terms but a procedure for specifying them more particularly, if the necessity arises, is embodied in the subsection.

Section 4 deals with the registration of accountable persons and, by virtue of sections 5 and 6, such persons can purchase taxable goods free of tax subject to their paying tax in respect of any such supplies not used as materials for manufacture or as stock in trade. Section 7 specifies the rate of tax as five per cent of the receipts from taxable sales. These receipts will include amounts added to recover the tax. Where manufacturers, wholesalers or retailers who are accountable sell goods by retail, the actual receipts may be reduced for tax purposes to the normal wholesale level.

Section 8 provides that where the parties to a sale appear to be transacting business at artificially low prices, the Revenue Commissioners may estimate the taxable turnover by reference to the price which would obtain if the goods were sold in the open market. Section 9 makes specific provision to enable accountable persons to pass on tax by additions to their prices where the prices were fixed by contract before the 1st October, 1966.

Section 10, for administrative convenience, enables the procedures applied in the operation of the turnover tax to be used for the purposes of the wholesale tax, with such modifications as are necessary. It also enables the Revenue Commissioners to make regulations concerning some additional procedures required in relation to the wholesale tax. Section 11 makes imports liable to a tax corresponding to the wholesale tax on transactions taking place within the State. Sections 12 and 13 contain the usual care and management, citation, and construction provisions.

I have now outlined, in general terms, the provisions of the Bill. Senators will, no doubt, have many queries regarding the detailed operation of the tax. Such queries are more appropriate to the Committee Stage when I shall be happy to furnish as much information as possible.

I wish to remind the House that those who have spoken previously in the general Budget debate must on this measure confine themselves to the Finance (No. 2) Bill. Those who did not get an opportunity of speaking on the general debate will be at liberty to do so here.

(Longford): I am in the position that I had spoken for a short time in the general debate and at the request of the Chair I concluded in time to allow the Minister to get in. I wonder where do I stand today. I should think I would be deemed by the Chair not to have concluded.

Acting Chairman

The Chair will consider that.

(Longford): So I am entitled to my one and a half hours.

The Minister will recall with some satisfaction that I am one of the tethered Senators who cannot say much on this Bill. Indeed, I have only a couple of general comments to make. The introduction of this tax is a surprising decision for the Government to make. Three years ago they had the choice of either a turnover tax at the retail stage or a tax at the wholesale stage and the Minister differentiated effectively between the two by saying that while the turnover tax had to attach to virtually all commodities subject to limited exceptions, wholesale tax is being applied to a small number of firms. Such a tax can be selective.

The turnover tax, in a country which has not got a decimal coinage, can only be levied in units of 3d and 6d in the £ as to go below 3d would cause a great many difficulties. This means the minimum amount the Minister can raise is about £7½ million a year. I am inclined to the view that one of the reasons this tax is being introduced is because of the inflexibility of the turnover tax. This tax is too good for raising money, for a minimum increase of £7½ million is too much of a bludgeon when one is trying in a Budget to collect a million here and £2 million there— where you do not want to raise a large volume of revenue. This new tax is being introduced because of failure by the Government to appreciate, when the turnover tax was being introduced, how inflexible it was. This new tax will enable the Government to raise smaller sums when smaller sums are needed. It will enable the Government to be selective. This tax will not cover the full range of goods which would fall under the hammer and the bludgeon of the turnover tax.

There is a strong case for this tax as against the turnover tax. At the time of the turnover tax I was surprised at the Government's decision to introduce it on all goods. This was not in accordance with the recommendations of the Income Tax Commission which favoured rather a tax of this kind. It is particularly difficult to swallow the argument made for the turnover tax—that it was simpler to operate. We now find that the Government are turning away from that and imposing this other tax. The Government have got themselves into a situation in which they are now imposing a tax which they said was too complicated and hard to operate when the turnover tax was introduced. They now find it is necessary to have two such taxes. It seems to me that the tax announced is flexible. It can be applied to a relatively narrow range of goods and it will collect about £5 million or, if it is placed on the whole range of commodities at the wholesale level, it would bring in a much larger sum.

I am not naïve enough to ask why we do not abolish the turnover tax and give up £15 million revenue. But I want to know why we have got to have this new tax, which can be levied on some goods and also have to have another turnover tax on a full range of goods which applies to about 30,000 retailers. I know there are more retailers than that but some of the smaller retailers do not pay the tax themselves but buy goods tax-paid. There are probably about 30,000 who actually pay this tax. So far as I can make out the wholesalers from whom those people are buying goods will also be paying tax on some goods at the wholesale level. Those wholesalers could, at the drop of a hat, add the 2½ per cent turnover tax to this new 5 per cent tax and thus save the retailers from the complicated business of filling up forms. The retailers could then be exempted from filling up those forms.

Perhaps I misunderstand the position. I realise that there are certain wholesalers whose lines are such that they will not be paying the wholesale tax. Nevertheless, many of them will be paying it. You could, therefore, by levying the turnover tax on them exempt 30,000 retailers from this complicated business of having to calculate their turnover which, at the retail level, is something not all firms do in the ordinary way. Many small firms do not do so and they could be exempted.

The only reason I can see for not doing it this way is that some wholesalers will not be paying this new tax and that you would have to extend the system to them in order to bring them within the framework of this tax. That is a weak argument because, in fact, those wholesalers are probably already involved in turnover tax proceedings on behalf of small retailers buying from them on a tax paid basis. I doubt if there are wholesalers, not under this new system, who are not paying tax of one or other type. It seems to me that you could abolish the liability of retailers to make those returns and could collect both taxes at the same level.

The only other argument I can see is that if this were done the Government might feel it was a climb down and an admission that they were wrong in the first instance and that this turnover tax should be at wholesale level. The Taoiseach a few minutes ago said that the Government were more concerned to be responsible than right. If they find they were wrong about the turnover tax they should not be afraid to admit it and to change their minds. They would have a bit of fun poked at them by the Opposition but they should not be afraid of that. I would like the Minister for Finance to do something with regard to this and to accept that there is no point in retailers, as well as wholesalers, filling up forms with regard to the turnover tax when the whole business could be done at the wholesale level.

There is one other argument which could be put forward—that is that if you charge the tax at wholesale level the margin would be added as it goes along—that it is likely that if it was put on at wholesale level that you would get a certain amount of pushing up of prices and certain increased profits, but with the price control measures now available to deal with this matter this should not present any problem. If you charge the turnover tax at the wholesale level it should not lead to any increased profit taking. If it does, the Minister for Industry and Commerce has ample power to deal with any such abuses.

I can see no reason for requiring over 30,000 people to continue filling up forms for this turnover tax. If the Minister has some good reason for not doing this he should tell the House. I have not seen anything in the Dáil debates referring to this matter. I have not read that it has been justified in the Dáil that the turnover tax should continue to be levied at the retail level. If it has already been justified in the Dáil I would like to hear about it.

The Minister should explain why we have to have two different forms of taxation. That is a fair question and it is one which I hope the Minister will answer when he is replying. I would also like to say that the addition of this £5 million to the burden of taxation is something about which one should make some protest. I am not personally opposed to an increase in taxation when one gets some concrete benefit from it. I consider the Government were perfectly right in the Second Programme to plan to increase the burden of taxation by 10 per cent over the period. They said that this money would be used for education and health. It seems quite proper to do that but we now find that for the last three years the extra taxation is not producing extra educational or health services. We are getting increased taxation but we are not getting increased benefits from this. We are getting the burden of taxation which was planned for 1970 at this stage, which is just three years after the start of the Programme. In that time the burden of taxation has risen 2½ times faster than was planned. The extra taxes of which this tax is a part will take about 55 per cent of the increase in national output this year. The amount which the Government expect to receive from the various taxes in the two Budgets, plus the somewhat uncertain buoyancy it expects, will represent about 55 per cent of the national output which the Government have forecasted. The Government should not manage its affairs in such a way as to take 55 per cent of the national output in any one year. Thirty per cent, perhaps even 33 per cent, is tolerable but no country can stand the situation in which the proportion of national output taken is not one-quarter to one-third but well over one-half, as is the case this year. This extra taxation which could have been avoided, if the Minister had held fast to the principles of the Second Programme, is something which is imposing an excessive burden on the economy. I think it is fair to say that and if the Minister came back and asked "What do you want to cut out?" it would be proper for me to say at this stage that I dealt adequately with that on the other Finance Bill.

The fact is that this involves a failure of management far beyond that which the economy should be expected to tolerate and the source of this extra taxation is not in the immediate decision of the Government to pay wage claims and additional aid to farmers, but it lies in the background of the past. It is founded on errors made previously upon which these particular provisions have been superimposed. It is there the trouble lies. However, I do not want to go further on that. I have spoken at length already on this general question of taxation. I merely want to raise this particular point on the Bill and let others who are not so tethered as I am, unleash themselves on the broader fields.

This is the third Finance Bill to be dealt with in 13 months and our public certainly are browbeaten and tax bitten this year. I feel the motoring public have been hardest hit by the two Budgets of this year, and it is reasonable to say that the Government, whose members enjoy free State cars and free State petrol, are obviously out of touch with the cost of motoring. The fact is that the ownership of a motor car is no longer a luxury. It is necessary for many thousands of our workers, not only in the towns but in the country, to have means of transport and we have a situation in Ireland today in which even the lowest paid workers in the Forestry Department, who have to travel long distances to their work in rural Ireland, equip themselves with an old small car for £40 or £50 to get to work.

A car for those people is not a luxury; it is a necessity. I feel that the new taxation, especially the increase of 25 per cent on the annual tax plus the two increases in the petrol, and now the five per cent wholesale tax, which I am sure will affect the price of cars, is a little much, and it is most unfortunate that this section of the community should be so hardly hit. I certainly admire the young fellows throughout the country who by their own diligence equip themselves with some kind of car, and they now find that the annual rate of taxation is forcing those cars off the road. I feel that the Government's order of priorities in the entire system of taxation has gone haywire.

Looking back over the Book of Estimates for the year ending 31st March, 1967, I am amazed to find that in the Estimate for the prison services our prisoners are much better looked after than many of our old people and patients in our county homes and hospitals. I see in the Book of Estimates for Public Services that £1 a week is allocated for victualling for our prisoners. This is an extraordinary figure when we compare it with the sum allocated by the same Department for the entire cost of maintenance and education of our unfortunate younger citizens who are sent to reformatories and industrial schools. The cost of maintaining a prisoner I reckon is something in the region of £2 a day. Yet they cannot find it within their power to give more than 35/- a week by way of capitation grant towards the cost of maintaining boys in our reformatories and industrial schools.

Acting Chairman

I must interrupt the Senator. His remarks are more relevant to the Appropriation Bill. Questions of detail cannot be entered into in this debate.

Very well, I bow to your ruling, but certainly I should like to deal with this matter when the opportunity arises. Last week on this debate quite a lot was said about housing in general and I think it was Senator Dolan who said that there was more money spent this year than any other year by the Department of Local Government on the provision of houses for our people. If Senator Dolan's figures are correct, I wish to make a vigorous protest in that at least one county council, that is Laois of which I am a member, is the cinderella of the 26 Counties as far as housing allocations are concerned, because even though we have had a scheme of almost 50 houses up with the Department for sanction for almost a year the Government could only find, despite the increased taxation, sufficient grants to enable us to complete 17 houses. I should like to quote the number of houses which were built from the Government's White Paper, "Housing Progress and Prospects". I feel there was a certain bandying of figures last week and we ought to clear the air on this matter. This White Paper states that in order to cater for ordinary depreciation at least 8,000, odd, houses are necessary to be constructed annually. In 1956 the number of houses built by private enterprise was 5,826 plus 2,363 which were erected by local authorities under the Housing of the Working Classes Act and a further 1,648 under the Labourers Act bringing us to a total of 9,837 houses.

This certainly compares very favourably with a total of 7,431 for the latest date in this publication, which was 1964. I certainly feel that, with the very steep increase in taxation our people have been experiencing over the last couple of years, the rate of house building by our local authorities which are so much subject to Government grants has not kept in line and in step. Similarly, all the county councils have had experience of their efforts in this regard being drastically curtailed and the public whose rates are increasing find it very difficult to understand the Government's policy in this respect.

The time is when an effort should be made to get back to having one annual Budget to cater for the entire 12 months. Similarly, too, in local authorities, the rates meeting or the annual estimates meeting has lost much of its value for the simple reason that no matter what rate is struck for the year it is impossible now for councils and corporations to keep the expenditure down to that level because of the fact that the Department of Local Government and, perhaps, the Department of Health invariably notify increases after that meeting which the councils must put into effect. Therefore, it is impossible for ordinary councils throughout the country to keep to the sum they had budgeted for at the estimates meeting. This is, indeed, regrettable because the ordinary householder certainly must endeavour to live within his means and must make an effort to live within his income for the year. Yet the only people who do not blink an eyelid about transgressing against this law are the Government who do so by their own action in bringing in increases, not in one but in two budgets now a year. If this system continues it will be very difficult for the ordinary people of the country to know where they stand because they certainly will have no hope whatsoever of making ends meet.

I should like to refer to one matter in regard to our forces in Cyprus. In the few cases where men have lost their lives, I feel the Department of Defence have been reluctant to supply headstones, even moderate ones, to the memory of the deceased soldiers. This is, perhaps, regrettable. I should like if the Minister could, in framing his Budget, perhaps include £100 or £50 in the overall taxation—which is a staggering figure this year. Surely we could find within the two Budgets this year £40 or £50 in order to put some sort of headstone over the boys who lost their lives in Cyprus last year.

There are a few other points I should like to mention on this Bill but, as the Minister has said he will be prepared to answer questions on Committee Stage, perhaps I will defer them until then.

I shall be very brief because I have spoken on Finance Bill No. 1 and the general arrangement between the Parties is that we would not cover the ground again when we were speaking a second time but apply this to the particular Bill we have now before us. I must say, however, that it is rather puzzling and strange that we have had Finance Bill No. 1—which we finished yesterday afternoon—and now today, 24 hours afterwards, we have a second Finance Bill. But, of course, the explanation is that these things originated quite a long time ago and we had the first Finance Bill at a time when the Presidential election was approaching. The Minister then had to provide for the farmers and, of course, the announcement of the benefits and extra payments to be made to the farmers was again conveniently announced before the Presidential election. Then, after the Presidential election, we had the extra taxation to be collected for the payments we made to the farmers. This is now embodied in Finance Bill No. 2.

This, of course, is quite a cynical operation. I do not see how we can expect the ordinary citizens to behave in a patriotic fashion in the economic difficulties facing the country when they see a democratically elected Government behaving like this; behaving in the cynical fashion of bringing in, first, a Finance Bill which did not provide all the necessary finances for the year, then announcing benefits before the Presidential election, and after having reaped the benefits of the Presidential election, announcing how they would collect the money.

Of course, there is another part to it. We now have a measure to be pushed through to avoid local elections this year because the Government would find it undesirable. They would be given an answer from the electorate to this sort of cynical operation. This, of course, is another cynical operation—postponing the local elections for the second time. I think last year a majority in this House again pushed through a Bill to promote local elections to be held this year. Now they find it again inconvenient to hold them this year and they will hoist their majority to postpone it again for a further year.

That has been said elsewhere.

It demonstrates the cynical approach of this Government; their contempt for the electorate, to treat them as children and to use the finances of the country to benefit politically by their actions.

I condemn this Budget on a second count. Again, we had this approach to more indirect taxation which will lead to a further increase in the cost of living, taxation not on the basis of the ability of the person to pay but rather indirect taxation spread across the whole board. We had it here in regard to petrol duties. I am not too concerned about that. I am particularly concerned about this five per cent wholesale tax which will again affect the cost of living and, no matter what the Minister may say about it, make it more difficult for the ordinary people of this country to exist.

The strange thing about this is that we had the turnover tax two or three years ago when we were assured that it was impossible to differentiate; you had to apply turnover tax to everything. The Labour Party protested, there were marches, and we said if you must have a turnover tax, exempt food and the necessaries of life. We were told that was administratively impossible; it could not be done. Suddenly, it has been found possible in this wholesale tax to exempt certain articles; to apply it only on a limited basis but on a basis which, of course, again will affect the cost of living, again make it more difficult for the people to live and make it more difficult for the trade unions to pursue wage claims. Of course, we will be told we are quite irresponsible in saying that.

As I have spoken on the First Budget, I can only apply my remarks in a limited extent to Finance Bill No. 2. I say it is a thoroughly cynical operation; it is to be condemned and we in the Labour Party will vote against it.

(Longford): I take it that those who have not spoken on Finance Bill No. 1 or those who did not include themselves then will have more latitude; in other words, those who have not spoken on the first Finance Bill can and will have a wider scope.

Acting Chairman

So long as it is relevant. The Senator may proceed without repeating what he said previously. He may resume on the last measure and refer his remarks also to the Bill before us.

(Longford): When I was speaking on the other Bill, I was proposing to give my view as to why certain situations were developing. I do suggest to this House that our real difficulty was that we were overbuying ourselves, and hence the purchasing power for the little we were doing, and the value of our money, were depreciating. So long as that situation prevails we will be in the vicious circle of demand for wages keeping in line with prevailing prices and demand for higher prices for agricultural produce, and that system is bound to continue so long as there is not an increase in production which will give more purchasing power to our money. I had intended to develop that idea but, at the request of the Chair, concluded to allow the Minister to come in.

By agreement of the House.

(Longford): I know it was by agreement of the House.

Which applies to everybody I understand.

(Longford): Yes. I do think that many people throughout the country and in this House fully realise that simple thing, and that in the long run if we want a better estate now or in the future, even for our grandchildren, we must work, and that there is not an easy way to create a new heaven and a new earth by a Minister for Finance manipulating affairs in such a way as to put more money in circulation unless there is something backing that money in real terms, by production of goods or from services of some sort. I am convinced that Senator Murphy and others understand this fact, and it annoys me then, because I feel that they do understand it, when I hear statements like the one just made by Senator Murphy. One would think that he felt that he and the Minister for Finance had an easy way to deal with this difficult problem. In the long run it is a problem for our whole society. I am satisfied that if we want an improvement it is by an increase in the production of wealth in this country whether it is agricultural output or industrial output, and by an increase in exports. Until we fully realise and give effect to that we will not get out of our difficulties. If that does not happen we will have a recurrence of the situation that Senator Stanford referred to on the previous Bill, that after a great acceleration in the economic growth of this country the situation will develop where it began and slow down, because it appears to me that once we as a society get an increase in purchasing power if we are not able to get satisfaction after that purchasing power in goods available here at home or imported from Shanghai or Hong Kong or somewhere else we will run ourselves into balance of payments problems. That has been the record of this country to a great degree.

The thing is not all that complicated. I am satisfied that in some way or another all our people and the Members of this House and of the Dáil fully realise this and will want to face up to it. Our first real progress will be when we do face up to this situation, and it is not a political question except in the best sense of politics. It is not a matter that should be the plaything of political Parties. There would be no hope for us if matters like this were a plaything between political Parties. I feel that there was an undertone in Senator Murphy's speech that because Finance (No. 2) Bill intended basically to make provision for the increase in agricultural prices—I hope I am wrong—that is why Senator Murphy seems to feel rather cattish——

Senator Murphy can make his own speech.

(Longford):——in regard to this matter. Senator Murphy did make his own speech, and I am entitled to give the view of other people and make my own speech. There was a pettishness in Senator Murphy's speech, not so much in what he said but in the way he said it.

You have a very musical ear.

(Longford): The Senator felt annoyed because this Bill rather than the Finance (No. 1) Bill is aimed at helping the agricultural community. Finance (No. 2) Bill, even though it followed close as far as this House is concerned on the heels of Finance (No. 1) Bill, did not come last, and it appears that the Bill does come closer in giving adjustments in agricultural prices for the agricultural community. I say that quite deliberately, because it does appear to me that no matter what Government is in power the agricultural community seem to come last.

The same thing happened with other Governments, and it is a sad thing to think that simply because the agricultural community are self-employed people they should not get the same attention as other people in this modern complex State we seem to be involved in. While I do agree basically with the idea of a Ministry of Labour I hope that it will be a useful tool in developing better attitudes in this country and more sanity in our relationship with one another, that is, Christian charity. I say that it is a great pity that self-employed people, whether the blacksmith, the farmer, or the small shopkeeper, because they are not in any well organised pressure groups, are not in a position to force their points of view.

They did it fairly well a couple of weeks ago.

(Longford): I regard all trade unions of people as pressure groups, because no matter how grand they might appear to be by their stated aims in practice they all seem to end up with the one aim of getting more and more of the national economy for their particular section to the disadvantage of the less well organised sections of our people. I do not want anybody to think that I am referring to trade unions of workers. I am not, because it would be so simple for people to say “so and so is hostile to trade unions of workers”. I do not think that anybody who wanted to do that would succeed. Nor do I see how I can be regarded as a capitalist. I do not think that small farmers as a class will ever be in a position of being regarded as capitalists who want to grind the faces of the poor.

I say this quite deliberately: there is a feeling of frustration among people. They think that because they are not organised those who are well organised get more than their share of the national income, and that the purchasing power and the standards of living of the unorganised section of our people suffer. This view is held in rural areas and that is why so many people —and young people particularly, unfortunately—are moving from the rural areas and seeking industrial employment. They feel, and rightly so, that well-guarded industrial employment is much more rewarding, profitable and pleasant than working on small farms.

Sitting suspended at 6 o'clock and resumed at 7.15 p.m.
Debate adjourned.
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