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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 May 1968

Vol. 65 No. 1

Road Traffic Bill, 1966: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

I do not think the regulations under the previous Convention attracted a great deal of attention since it was introduced in the Dáil in June, 1966. It has been the subject of prolonged debates in the Dáil and of numerous articles and letters in newspapers and magazines. Senators are now, therefore, no doubt, fully aware of the main provisions of the Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to amend and extend the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1961. The necessity for the amendment of the 1961 Act arises mainly out of the report of the Commission on Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug. The establishment of this Commission was decided upon following the Parliamentary Debates on the provisions of the 1961 Act relating to drink and driving. The Commission was set up in September, 1961, under the chairmanship of the President of the High Court, Mr. Justice Cahir Davitt, with the following terms of reference:

To investigate and to report on the feasibility of fixing a standard, by reference to the alcohol content of the blood or by any other test, as constituting drunkenness for the purpose of the offence of drunk-driving and the legislative measures which might be taken to deal with the offence of driving, attempting to drive or being in charge of a vehicle in a public place while under the influence of drink or a drug, including the following matters:—

(a) objective tests of drunkenness,

(b) graded offences, according to the degree of drunkenness,

(c) penalties, and

(d) method of trial and court procedure generally.

The Commission's report was published in October, 1963. The main recommendations are summarised in the appendix to the explanatory memorandum which has been circulated with this Bill. The Government gave full consideration to the recommendations of the Commission and the views submitted by the public and, while accepting in general the import of the Commission's recommendations, decided that a blood-alcohol level of 125 milligrammes should be taken as absolute proof of the Commission of an offence related to drink and driving and not merely prima facie evidence as recommended by the Commission.

The existing law relating to drink and driving is contained in sections 49 and 50 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961. Under these sections, it is an offence to drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or a drug to such an extent as to be incapable of having proper control of the vehicle or to be in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while unfit to drive through drink or drugs. The wording of these sections was intended to make it clear that in order to commit an offence a person need not be drunk in the socially accepted sense. These changes in the law, however, have not been as effective as was intended and, as the Commission in its report states: "it is probable that under the present system many persons are now acquitted who would deservedly be convicted if there were a fixed standard of incapacity."

Part V of the Bill proposes to extend the existing provisions in regard to drink and driving so as to give effect to the Commission's recommendations and the Government's decision on them. In view of the importance of the subject and because of the general interest it has aroused, I propose to depart from the usual practice by discussing the provisions of this Part of the Bill first.

I shall begin by outlining as briefly as possible the arguments for an objective standard, and in doing so I shall be largely summarising the reasoning which the Commission followed. It is generally accepted that official statistics in many countries have a built-in tendency to understate the extent to which drink is a factor in road accidents and this appears to be true about our own statistics also. It has been confirmed by experiments and surveys which have been conducted abroad to determine the part that drink plays in road accidents. The results of these agree with the conclusions reached by the Commission which can be summarised as follows:

(1) Alcohol is a significant factor in a considerable proportion of road accidents and particularly in fatal accidents. Drivers who had recently consumed alcohol are significantly over-represented in the accident group.

(2) Of drivers involved in accidents after taking drink, a relatively high proportion have high blood-alcohol levels.

(3) The risk of being involved in an accident increases greatly as the blood-alcohol level rises. Both drivers and other road users become less skilful and more accident prone at the same blood-alcohol level. Experimental evidence indicates that as the blood-alcohol concentration increases there is a progressive deterioration in driving skill. Even at relatively low concentrations of alcohol in the blood some impairment sets in at an early stage and there is no threshold for sudden deterioration; relatively moderate concentrations of alcohol affect driving performance critically.

There is plenty of information published on what happens to the human body when drink is taken. I do not intend to repeat it but I would like to say a few words on the effects of drink —even at the risk of stating the obvious. At an early stage, attention and judgement are impaired, as are self-discipline and those skills involving refined co-ordination. Visual acuity suffers also at an early stage and sensory mechanisms are affected. Later, behaviour becomes irregular, speech becomes hesitant or thick, memory becomes confused, and errors in co-ordination and some impairment of balance become noticeable. Generally, however, it is at a later stage still that staggering, slurred speech, flushed face, glassy eyes, et cetera, appear and it is only at this stage that subjective examination of a person can lead to a definite conclusion that he is under the influence of drink.

What I would like to emphasise is that what is generally and mistakenly taken to be almost the first signs of alcoholic influence appear, in fact, only when there is a high concentration of alcohol in the blood and at an advanced stage of impairment. Long before these symptoms make their appearance, the individual concerned may be quite incapable of driving safely.

To enforce the existing law relating to drink and driving it is necessary to establish that an arrested person is incapable of having proper control of the vehicle by reason of drink. To do this the prosecution relies to a great extent on the opinion of a doctor or on the evidence of the gardaí or of independent witnesses as to what they observed about the condition of the accused. The doctor's opinion is formed as the result of what is termed a clinical examination, which relies on personal judgment and experience and of necessity must be based on the visible effects of alcohol, just as are the observations of the gardaí and other witnesses. As stated already, these visible signs such as errors in co-ordination, impairment of balance, slurring of speech, flushed face, etc., are indications of a high concentration of alcohol in the blood or, in other words, an advanced stage of impairment.

Since clinical examination is not sensitive enough to detect incapacity before a high degree of impairment occurs, it is unreliable. Furthermore, it may confuse the symptoms of sickness or injury with those of excessive drinking; it may allow the drinker who has learned to control the visible signs of intoxication to escape while catching the novice; such lack of uniformity in standards of assessment and inconsistencies in results inevitably lead to inequitable decisions by courts. There may be acquittals where there should not be, and, in rarer cases, there may be wrongful convictions.

Here the Commission concluded that "the methods used hitherto in this country appear to have been comparatively ineffective in dealing with the problem of drink and driving", and that a clinical examination is not a reliable method of estimating the extent to which a person's capacity to drive has been worsened by the consumption of intoxicating liquor." This is entirely consistent with the conclusions reached in numerous studies carried out throughout the world, and it has been confirmed since the Commission's report by studies made by OECD, the European Conference of Ministers of Transport and the BMA. Subsequently also, the authorities in Great Britain. and later in Northern Ireland, faced with a similar problem to ours, have opted for the kind of solution which is now proposed in the Bill, that is, to supersede the clinical test by setting out in law a standard of impairment by reference to the level of alcohol in the blood.

To return to the argument, medical science has established that it is not the amount of alcohol consumed by a person which is the measure of impairment of driving ability. It is the amount absorbed into the blood and thus circulated through the body, affecting the brain and other nerve centres and correspondingly the mental and/or physical faculties. The concentration of alcohol in the blood is accepted as the best index of alcoholic influence. There is a constant ratio between the concentration of alcohol in the brain and the concentration in the blood and in assessing the effects of alcohol on driving performance it is, therefore, appropriate to make the assessment by reference to the concentration in the blood. I may say that research has now established that, at concentrations in excess of 80 mg. per 100 ml., alcohol emerges as the dominant factor in accidents involving alcohol. In other words, when this concentration has been reached, other accident causing factors have been ironed out and alcohol dominates the picture.

It has been decided, therefore to make use of the blood-alcohol level in dealing with offences related to drink and driving. However, this decision does not, of itself, solve our problems because the blood alcohol level could be used in three ways—(1) merely to corroborate or rebut evidence based on clinical examination, or (2) as prima facie evidence of incapacity to drive, or (3) as conclusive proof of an offence. The Commission rightly decided that the first of these courses would not give satisfactory results.

The Commission recommended the adoption, initially at any rate, of the second course, that is, making a specified blood-alcohol level prima facie evidence of impairment of driving capacity. I should emphasise, however, that they did not rule out the possibility of the establishment of a specific blood-alcohol level as conclusive evidence of a new offence, at some future date. They merely considered that it was unlikely to be acceptable at the time they reported.

The Commission's own view that, at a blood-alcohol level of 125 milligrammes per 100 millilitres, the driving ability of the great majority of persons will be seriously impaired, would seem to justify a provision making that level proof of guilt rather than prima facie evidence as they recommended. All the scientific evidence available shows that at this blood-alcohol level, capacity to drive safely will be seriously worsened in the case of the great majority of persons, if not all.

The community should be entitled, therefore, to say that any person whose blood contains that concentration of alcohol should refrain from driving, whether or not he considers he is completely capable of doing so.

It is very doubtful whether, if a particular concentration of alcohol were to be taken as prima facie evidence of incapacity to drive, there would be any greater uniformity in court decisions—experience shows that different courts would be likely to accept different evidence as discharging the onus on the accused. A further argument is that, in order to discharge the onus which would be placed on him, a defendant would have to rely on evidence, including evidence of opinion, based on clinical examination or observation. It would be very undesirable and unsatisfactory if the courts were to accept such evidence, which has been shown to be extremely unreliable, as discharging the onus on the defendant or, in effect, rebutting the evidence as to blood-alcohol level.

There are, therefore, grounds for believing that the establishment of an elaborate system of breath, blood or urine testing would not lead to any appreciable improvement on the present position unless evidence as to the blood-alcohol level were made conclusive proof of an offence. This the Bill proposes to do.

Senators may have different views as to whether the blood-alcohol level specified in the Bill is the right one. In considering this question it is important to bear in mind that all the evidence available suggests that at relatively low blood-alcohol levels, say, 30-50 milligrammes, some impairment of driving ability will occur in all individuals, irrespective of individual tolerance to alcohol, while at relatively moderate blood-alcohol levels, somewhere between 80 and 150 milligrammes per 100 millilitres, the great majority of persons will be seriously impaired.

A number of countries in Eastern Europe completely ban driving after drinking. In a number of others, for example, Norway and Sweden, a blood-alcohol level of 50 milligrammes is taken as proof of an offence. One could, of course, go to the other extreme and fix the level at 150 milligrammes or more. At this level the majority of persons would be obviously intoxicated: in other words, they would display symptoms which, on clinical examination, should give a positive result. A suitable blood-alcohol level should represent a level at which a significant number of persons will be impaired though not necessarily showing obvious signs of intoxication. It should be one which a reasonably-minded public will, in its own interests, accept as fair and just.

The Commission on Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug having considered the evidence available on the question of the blood-alcohol level at which serious incapacity to drive sets in, concluded that 125 milligrammes would be a suitable level. At that level they believed that "the great majority of persons will be critically impaired". An important advantage of the 125 milligramme level is that at that level practically all, if not all, drinkers—light drinkers, moderate drinkers and even heavv drinkers—will be critically impaired. The Bill, therefore, fixes the maximum level at 125 milligrammes. If, however, future developments demonstrate that it is desirable to reduce the specified level. I can assure the House that the necessary amending legislation will be introduced.

I do not propose to discuss separately each section of Part V but, instead to describe generally how it is proposed to operate the provisions.

The Bill creates new offences, the essence of which is exceeding the specified blood-alcohol level, irrespective of whether the person concerned is drunk in the normal sense or not. Provision for the new offences is made by amending sections 49 and 50 of the 1961 Act so that each of these sections will contain provision for two alternative offences—the existing offence and the new offence, in the case of section 49, of driving or attempting to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle while there is present in the body a quantity of alcohol such that, within three hours afterwards the concentration of alcohol in the blood will exceed 125 milligrammes per 100 millilitres. The same maximum penalties will apply to the new offences as apply at present to the existing offences.

It is necessary to retain the existing offences because cases may arise in which the services of a doctor cannot be obtained by the gardaí in time to take a specimen from a suspect, in which the accused may not have been apprehended at the material time, or may have been under the influence of drink to such an extent that he was quite incapable of understanding the requisition or of consenting to the provision of a specimen. There will also be cases in which, though the blood-alcohol level of a person is below 125 milligrammes, the gardaí will have sufficient grounds for instituting a charge of driving while unfit. In such a case, the prosecution would, as at present, rely on evidence based on observation and clinical examination, where it has been possible to have such an examination carried out. The retention of the existing offences is also necessary to deal with cases of being under the influence of drugs.

The Bill seeks to solve some of the problems of enforcement associated with the new offences by providing, in section 28, for a preliminary breath test with an apparatus which does not give results reliable enough to be used as evidence in court but which does, however, give a fair indication of the extent to which alcohol is present in the body. The purpose of the test is, on the one hand, to aid in the enforcement of the new provisions and, on the other hand, to prevent unnecessary inconvenience to drivers. It will be an offence to refuse or fail to undergo a preliminary breath test when required to do so.

However, that alone would not fully solve the problem because guilty persons might well refuse the test and deliberately choose the lesser offence and the lesser penalty involved. If, in the case of such a refusal, the garda is of opinion that the person concerned is, in fact, breaking the law, he may arrest him because, as in the case of the existing offences, a member of the Garda will under the Bill be empowered to arrest, without warrant, a person who, in his opinion, is committing or has committed one of the new offences.

Under the Bill, blood or urine specimens and breath specimens for accurate analysis, may be taken or provided only at Garda stations. When a person is arrested because he is believed to have committed one of the existing or one of the new offences or the offence of refusing a preliminary breath test and he is brought to a Garda station, the garda in charge there will be empowered under sections 30 and 33, to require him either to provide a specimen of his breath or a specimen of his blood, or both. As an alternative to permitting a blood specimen to be taken, the arrested person may provide a specimen of his urine.

Before such a requirement may be made, however, the arrested person must under section 36 be given a final opportunity to have a preliminary breath test, if he wishes. Although the Bill authorises the making of a requisition for a specimen of breath for accurate analysis, it is proposed to accept the recommendation of the Commission that, initially at any rate, breath analysis should not be used as a method of producing evidence for use in court. The reliability of this method when used in normal everyday conditions has not been conclusively established.

Research on the subject is continuing and it is likely that the technique of breath analysis will improve. However, it is considered wise to provide in the Bill for the taking of breath specimens from arrested persons. Such specimens could be taken in addition to specimens of blood or urine and it would, therefore, be possible to use breath analysis experimentally, in conjunction with blood or urine analysis in certain areas, probably the larger cities. If the improvement in breath-testing techniques continues to a sufficient degree, it might be feasible, in time, to replace blood or urine analysis by breath analysis.

I should say a few words on the use of urine samples. Direct analysis of the blood is to be preferred for several reasons but, because of the objections some people have to giving a specimen of blood, it was thought better on balance to permit as an alternative the giving of a specimen of urine. Just as the concentration of alcohol in the blood can be determined by analysing and relating the concentration in the breath, so also can it be determined by analysing and relating that in urine. But urine analysis ranks rather with direct blood analysis than with breath analysis. There is, of course, a relationship between the concentration of alcohol in the urine and that in the blood.

The determination of the alcohol concentration in the urine can, as in the case of blood, be carried out by an independent scientific authority. A sample of the urine taken can be given to the suspect for independent analysis or a part of the sample originally analysed can be retained for further analysis. Urine analysis is used generally in conjunction with blood-analysis, in other countries. On balance, therefore, it was felt that it was better to provide this as an option to giving a specimen of blood. If, however, experience shows that the difficulties involved prove greater than now expected, amending legislation may have to be introduced proposing that only blood samples may be offered.

As recommended by the Commission, regulations will prescribe the procedures to be followed in order to give practical effect to the provisions relating to the new offences. These will cover such matters as the method of taking specimens, preservation of specimens and how the alcohol content will be determined and certified.

Since it is essential to have evidence of the blood-alcohol level in order to prove the new offences, it is necessary to prevent people from evading the new provisions by refusing a specimen of blood or urine. The Commission recommended that such refusal should be made an offence punishable in the same way as the offence for which the person was arrested. The Bill provides accordingly.

It further follows the Commission's recommendations by providing, in section 36, that, in a prosecution for refusing or failing to permit a blood specimen to be taken, it will be a good defence to satisfy the court that there was a special and substantial reason for the refusal or failure. The section affords a further good defence to the defendant who shows that, when required to permit a specimen of blood to be taken, he had not been cautioned in the prescribed terms of the possible effects of his refusal or failure.

The Commission considered that if the new system of dealing with the problem of drink and driving was to function satisfactorily, it should not be necessary for the doctor who obtained a specimen to appear in court to give evidence merely of this. This suggestion has been adopted in section 44 (1) of the Bill, where it is provided that the certificate completed by the doctor will be sufficient evidence in any legal proceedings of the matters certified, until the contrary is shown.

The Commission's suggestions that the analysis of all blood and urine specimens should be carried out by an independent authority and not under State control but under the control of a Medical Director are being implemented, and the Bureau will be established under sections 37 to 41 of the Bill. The Bureau will further arrange for the provision of equipment for the taking or provision of specimens and may undertake research. The Bureau will be empowered to enter into an arrangement with an appropriate institution, such as, for example, a scientific or medical department of a university college, under which the work of analysing specimens would be undertaken in the university laboratory by persons employed there. The net expenses of the Bureau will be met out of the Road Fund.

Section 43 (2) deals with the procedure to be followed when a specimen is received by the Bureau. It provides that a part of the specimen shall be analysed and the concentration of alcohol therein determined, and that the remainder of the specimen shall be preserved—this is in case a further analysis is required under section 45. When a determination as to the concentration of alcohol in a specimen has been made, the Bureau must notify the Garda and the person from whom the specimen was taken. In accordance with the recommendation of the Commission it is provided in section 44 (2) of the Bill that a certificate issued by the Bureau must be accepted as conclusive evidence of the concentration of alcohol. However, the person concerned may, under section 45, require the Bureau to carry out a further analysis, on the part of the specimen preserved by them, in his presence or the presence of his nominee, if he so wishes. If it results in a lower figure, it will prevail over the first result.

Section 46 provides a further safeguard. Under it, a person who permits a specimen of his blood to be taken or provides a specimen of his urine must——

(a) be given an opportunity of providing an additional specimen to a doctor of his own choice or,

(b) if he requests, be supplied by the Garda doctor with an additional specimen provided by him.

In the event of any material difference between the results certified by the Bureau and those given in evidence by the accused's own analyst, it would be a matter for the court to resolve the controversy as best it could, taking into accounut all material circumstances relating to the case.

Part V of the Bill contains provisions in relation to other traffic offences. Section 48 increases substantially the maximum penalties which may be imposed for the offence of driving a pedal cycle while under the influence of drink. This again follows a recommendation of the Commission. Under sections 49 and 50 it is proposed to split the existing offence of driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration into two separate offences, one of which, driving without due care and attention, will carry a heavier maximum penalty than the present offence. It is intended to proceed under this in the type of case in which juries and justices have tended to acquit on a charge of dangerous driving but which nevertheless involves more than lack of consideration. Sections 51 and 52 propose amendments to sections 53 and 55 of the 1961 Act, which deal with dangerous driving and dangerous parking, respectively, designed to remove technical difficulties which have arisen in the operation of the existing sections. Section 52 also extends to dangerous parking the power to arrest without warrant, which already applies to dangerous driving. This power is required to enable the Garda to deal effectively with offenders who find it easy to evade the law.

I turn now to the other Parts of the Bill. Many of these provisions are self-explanatory and notes on them have been provided in the explanatory memorandum which has been circulated with the Bill. Part 1 contains the usual provisions relating to short title, interpretation, commencement and collective citation and construction. Under section 3, the provisions of the 1961 Act and the Bill must be construed together as one Act. This will have the effect of applying many important provisions of the 1961 Act to the Bill, for example, the definitions, the general power to make regulations, the financial provisions, and the provisions relating to the general penalty in section 102 of the 1961 Act.

Part II has the object of ensuring that vehicles in use on the public roads are roadworthy, particularly in relation to the design and fitting of vehicle parts and driver equipment, the design and quality of the vehicles themselves and, in the case of goods vehicles, their ability to carry loads. Responsibility will be placed on the supplier of vehicles, vehicle parts, equipment, etc., of ensuring that what is supplied by him meets the requirements which will have been determined beforehand. Flexibility in the use of the new controls will be essential because of movements towards European harmonisa-tion as well as developments arising from the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement and having regard to the extraordinary diversity of the problems arising in relation to motor vehicles. The specific requirements will, therefore, be determined by regulations under the appropriate sections. Before such regulations are made the various interests involved will, of course, be consulted. The provisions of Part II of the 1961 Act, which place responsibility on the owner or user of a vehicle, will continue to apply, to ensure that the vehicle, once supplied, is properly maintained and used.

This Part of the Bill also provides for spot checks on vehicles in use on the public roads, the exercise of a measure of surveillance over the vehicle maintenance operations of persons having reasonably large fleets of vehicles, more effective checking of vehicles suspected of carrying excess weights and a sliding scale of fixed penalties where serious overweight is detected.

The provisions of this Part of the Bill are rather technical and complex and are, I feel, more appropriate for discussion at Committee Stage.

Part III of the Bill amends and extends Part III of the 1961 Act so as to provide for control of driving instruction, eyesight tests for persons who make application to undergo the driving test and the issue in certain cases of limited certificates of competency to drive. It deals also with the removal, suspension and postponement of disqualifications for driving.

The rate of failure in driving tests which in 1967 averaged 55.8 per cent suggests, that driving instruction throughout the country is not always up to the right standard. Control of driving instruction for reward would go some way towards solving this difficulty and powers to this end are provided in section 18 of the Bill.

Section 19 of the Bill amends section 29 of the 1961 Act, which relates to the removal by the courts of disqualification for driving. Under its main provision it will extend the scope of the courts' power to remove ancillary disqualification, as distinct from consequential disqualification.

Section 20 introduces automatic suspension of the operation of ancillary or consequential orders pending appeal. The existing power of suspending a special disqualification order, pending a decision on appeal, is retained. The section also provides that a court, when making an order disqualifying a person from driving, may postpone for up to 6 months the commencement of the period of disqualification provided it is fully satisfied that this action is justified by exceptional circumstances. Such postponement gives a convicted person whose livelihood depends on driving, the opportunity to train, say, a member of his family so that he will be in a position to support himself and his dependants.

An eyesight test is one aspect of driver testing which is not covered in the scheme as hitherto operated in this country. It is normally part of the test in other countries. While there is no proven association between poor eyesight and accident causation it is accepted that a person with defective vision is at an immediate disadvantage. There are many aspects of eyesight which may effect driving—and the nature and scope of the eyesight test, under section 21 of the Bill will, therefore, be determined from time to time by regulations following investigations and consultations with bodies competent to advise on the subject. For the present, it is envisaged that the test will be a simple one of visual acuity but a more complex test may be introduced later.

Section 22 of the Bill covers a point which has occasioned some hardship for a limited number of applicants for the driving test. In this country the number of classes of vehicles for driving licence purposes has been kept to the minimum, in line with international practice. As a result some classes embrace fairly wide ranges of vehicles and the driving test must take account of this by requiring that the vehicle on which the test is carried out is representative of its class. Hardship may result in a special case where a person wishes to take the test in a particular type of vehicle and it is clear that there is no likelihood of the person concerned driving a more difficult type. In such a case the issue of a limited certificate of competency would meet the exceptional difficulty involved while retaining the overall pattern of the present driver licensing system. The issue of such limited certificates is provided for in section 22.

Section 23 makes it an offence for a person to substitute for another at a driving test. The maximum penalty will be £50 or 6 months imprisonment or both. Furthermore, any certificate of competency or driving licence obtained by reason of the substitution will be void.

Part IV of the Bill deals with speed limits. Apart from a number of minor amendments to the existing law, this Part of the Bill authorises the introduction of a general speed limit for all mechanically propelled vehicles and in respect of all public roads, or all public roads with specified exceptions, should such a course appear desirable in the light of experiments and research here and abroad. The provision for a general speed limit is a flexible one which would enable such a limit to be introduced for holiday or other peak traffic periods for an experimental period or on a permanent basis. I may say that An Foras Forbartha have been asked to undertake in advance a full study on this question of a general speed limit. Another important amendment in this Part of the Bill is the provision in section 25 which makes possible the application of special speed limits on specified roads for certain periods of the year, e.g., during the summer months in a holiday resort.

Part VI of the Bill modifies the compulsory insurance provisions of the 1961 Act. Section 53 terminates the system under which cover may be afforded by an approved guarantee. This system has not, in fact, been operated in this country for a number of years and it has disadvantages both for the guaranteed person and for third parties. An "exempted person" under the 1961 Act is in effect allowed to carry his own insurance. This option has been availed of only by Córas Iompair Éireann. Sections 54 and 55 of the Bill propose to limit the right to statutory bodies and semi-State companies, as it is considered that, in present circumstances, it would be unwise to continue to permit bodies other than statutory and semi-State bodies to be exempt like the State from compulsory motor insurance.

It was proposed in the Dáil that the compulsory insurance provisions of the 1961 Act be extended so as to cover the negligence of passengers in mechanically propelled vehicles. This proposal raises issues of so complex a nature that an extended study is called for. Other Departments as well as the Department of Local Government are concerned—in particular the Department of Justice which administers the law relating to civil liability. As the Minister for Local Government stated in the Dáil, it is intended to have the subject studied to see if a reasonable solution can be found.

Part VII of the Bill contains minor amendments and extensions of the provisions of the 1961 Act relating to the control and operation of public service vehicles. In addition, it provides for the transfer from the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána to the Minister for Local Government of the power conferred by section 86 of the 1961 Act to make statutory instruments to control and regulate stopping places and stands for omnibuses. These powers, which are of a general nature, are applicable throughout the entire State and are of a kind with the powers conferred by section 88 of the 1961 Act to make general bye-laws for the regulation and control of traffic. For reasons which I shall refer to later, these latter powers are being transferred from the Commissioner to the Minister and it is considered desirable, therefore, that the powers conferred by section 86 should also be transferred.

Part VIII of the Bill deals with the regulation of traffic. Section 59 is a new provision, designed to deal with pedestrians who are under the influence of drink in public places to such an extent as to endanger traffic or themselves. It implements a recommendation of the Commission on Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug.

Section 88 of the 1961 Act, under which the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána may, with the consent of the Minister, make bye-laws applicable throughout the State, for the general control and regulation of traffic and pedestrians in public places, is being repealed by the Bill. Instead, under section 60 of the Bill the Minister is being empowered to make regulations for similar purposes. Bye-laws under section 88 are in effect, the Rules of the Road, the formulation of which must, in the light of developments in recent years, now be regarded as a matter of policy. As such, it is more appropriate that they should be made by the Minister directly answerable to the Oireachtas.

Section 61 is designed to make it clear that restrictions on vehicles using a bridge may be related to axle or wheel loads as well as overall weight and to make it possible to bring combinations of vehicles, as well as single vehicles, within the scope of such restrictions.

Section 62 is purely an enabling section under which all traffic management functions in a specified area can be vested in one road authority. This would have obvious advantages, provided the authority concerned was capable of discharging the functions effectively and had established an adequate organisation for the purpose. It will be possible to transfer to a specified road authority, by order under section 62, functions of the Commissioner as well as functions of other local authorities.

Section 63 replaces section 97 of the 1961 Act under which a member of the Garda Síochána may remove or arrange for the removal of a vehicle which is left on a public road in such a position as to cause, or to be likely to cause, danger or obstruction or is abandoned on a public road. The section was found to be inadequate. The problem of abandoned vehicles has become a serious one in recent years and the new section will enable regulations to be made establishing an effective system under which vehicles may be removed, stored and, after the expiration of a specified period, disposed of.

Part IX of the Bill contains three sections. Section 64 will enable the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána to appoint persons to aid in the operation of the system of parking enforcement which has come to be known, incorrectly, as "fines-on-the-spot". The growing volume of vehicles on the roads is making ever increasing demands on the Gardaí, whose duty it is to enforce road traffic law. The stage has now been reached where the gardaí, particularly in Dublin, are becoming seriously short-staffed and find it hard to cope with their primary tasks of preventing and detecting crime and preserving law and order. Much of the work connected with the enforcement of road traffic law is of a routine nature and could well be performed by persons other than gardaí, who are highly and expensively trained in police duties proper. Faced with the choice of expanding the strength of the Garda Síochána or recruiting a special traffic service whose personnel would not be required to be of the physical standards and police training of the Garda, it has, very naturally, been decided to opt for the latter. The Bill provides that the new personnel will be used for the work of affixing and delivering "fines-on-the-spot" notices. The members are to be appointed by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and their remuneration and conditions of service will be fixed by the Minister for Justice in consultation with the Minister for Finance. The actual cost of the service will be recouped from the Road Fund. Prosecutions where the person concerned opts not to pay the "fine-on-the-spot" will be taken by the Garda in all cases, with the members of the new corps acting as witnesses if required. I should have said in that connection, that the words "fines-on-the-spot" are in quotes because the Minister makes it clear that the use of the words "fines-on-the-spot" has a particular significance.

Section 65 is designed to remove certain difficulties which have arisen in connection with section 112 of the 1961 Act, which makes it an offence to take or use a vehicle without the consent of the owner or other lawful authority. In particular, the scope of section 112 is being widened so as to make it a specific offence, not just as heretofore, an offence of aiding and abetting to allow oneself to be carried in a vehicle which is known to have been taken without the owner's consent.

Section 66 enables the Minister to conduct an investigation or inquiry into a road accident, and gives the necessary ancillary powers. This can be done in respect of accidents involving other forms of transport. The power will be used only in cases of accidents having more than usual significance, for example, in relation to vehicle design or road traffic regulations. The normal type of accident— if one can safely use that phrase— will continue to be dealt with by the gardaí.

I do not propose to discuss the various amendments to the 1961 Act made by section 6 and the Schedule to the Bill. These are points of detail and notes on each of them are included in the explanatory memorandum.

In conclusion, I repeat that it is appreciated that legislation by itself cannot solve all our road traffic problems, but it must provide the framework for action on a wide front and not merely that of enforcement. The Bill aims at bringing right up to date our legislation on this important subject, which is of practical concern to nearly everybody in the State in his daily life.

I commend the Bill to the House and ask that it be given a Second Reading.

This is a Bill which would have warmed the heart of Father Theobald Mathew if he were among us today because it certainly will do a great deal to change the social habits of this country in the matter of drinking. I can say straight away that I am glad the Bill has been introduced at last and I hope it will have a reasonably speedy passage through the House. It is a very complicated and detailed measure and it will need a great deal of consideration but as the Minister has indicated in his speech it is not possible in a Bill of this kind, where so many people have their own views, to satisfy everybody but I think the Bill is a good effort in trying to achieve the framework in which people can drive safely on the roads without fear from other drivers and in which other users of the road will be able to use them with some greater degree of safety than is possible at present.

I am sorry the Minister for Local Government is not here with us on this occasion because today he would at least be on the side of the clerics. The Chairman of the Safety First Committee in this country, a distinguished cleric, has been taunting the Legislature for not enacting this Bill as quickly as we might. I would be glad to have the Minister here to deal with, perhaps, some of the things which the Minister for Transport and Power, skilled and all as he is in this, may not be able to deal with. The Minister I think has probably concentrated on the question of drunken driving and although he has said that this is a highly technical matter it will provide a lot of answers to critics of the proposals contained in this Bill.

I cannot see why anybody who has a sane approach to life can insist that he has a right to drive while drunk and if he does not insist he has a right to drive while drunk he should not have any objection to anything contained in this Bill. This Bill is designed not against me but against all the other fellows who may be driving when they are drunk. Anybody who approaches the problem of driving on the roads in a rational manner must realise that this Bill is designed to protect me from all other people and to have me limit my intake of intoxicating liquor on a particular occasion. At the same time, if it is effective in the way it operates it will enable me to drive, or to walk, more safely on the road.

Of course, the old habits of drinking as we know them at present will have to be changed. I welcome the idea that we will know in the course of time that after we take two or three half ones or three pints or whatever the limit is, we should not drive. Up to the present, and certainly until the Road Safety got going in this country in the last ten years and the slogan: "If you drink, don't drive and if you drive don't drink" was put forward it was virtually impossible sometimes, because of the overwhelming hospitality which we Irish people afford to one another, to remain sober if you got into any kind of session. To say you were driving meant nothing. It is because of the insistence of the motto: "If you drink you cannot drive and if you drive you should not be drinking" that you are now enabled to say: "I am driving" and this prevents people from overwhelming you with a dangerous hospitality.

Consequently, in principle, although I am a great believer in the protection of individual rights and the liberty of citizens I see no objection whatever to the breathaliser test as a means for determining whether or not a person is prima facie sober or drunk and whether further examination or tests should be undertaken at the Garda station.

The next stage is where a person is brought to the Garda station, having given an indication prima facie that he has drink taken. He is then required to undergo a blood test or a urine test. If you do not provide either, then you automatically convict yourself of an offence under section 49 of the Road Traffic Act.

That approaches the way it should be. We cannot afford to continue the slaughter on the roads that has gone on for far too long. We cannot afford that. We spend a great deal of time tracking down diseases among small children. We are glad if our doctors are able to isolate a particular disease by early examination of infants and perhaps if we save over 30 to 40 children who might be afflicted with the particular disease we regard that as a good thing. At the same time, there is an opinion abroad that we should not curtail the liberty of those who want to drink too much which will have the effect of killing 30 or 40 children every year.

There are varying views in regard to the alcoholic content in the blood which should be regarded as sufficient evidence to condemn a man for drunken driving. Some people maintain that the limit prescribed is too high; some say that it is too low. Other people argue that the capacity to remain sober varies from individual to individual and that the quantity of liquor in the blood which may make one person unfit to drive will not make another unfit to drive. All of that may well be so but the plain fact of the matter is that we are faced with a number of accidents which are attributable to, or sometimes directly caused by, drunken driving. Some remedy has to be found and when the remedy lies in protecting the innocent the clear duty of the Legislature is to ordain that what is for the protection of the individual should be enacted into law.

I am not too happy with the manner in which this new offence, or the extension of section 49, the offence of drunken driving, is effected in this particular Bill. I think when we are dealing with so important a matter, so serious a matter, as drunken driving we ought at least to enact in one section of an Act the offence of drunken driving but it seems impossible to get into the heads of the Parliamentary draftsmen in this country the idea of amending a particular section of an Act by welding an amendment into the old one and reenacting only one section in a new Bill to constitute the offence.

If one wants to find out what is the position with regard to drunken driving one has to consult section 49 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, and then get scissors and paste and cellotape and cut out section 49 of the Road Traffic Bill, 1966, and put it into the 1961 Act. That to my mind is an absurd way in which to deal with legislation of this kind and it is doubly absurd when it is dealing with an important matter that affects every user of the road, every driver who drives, and in relation to an Act which will become part of the social history of this country.

Why the Parliamentary draftsmen and Ministers cannot bring themselves to amend a section by deleting from the old section what is not necessary and welding into it what is necessary and reconstituting the whole thing in one section is something which surpasses my understanding. I can see no reason for not doing it but I can see ten good reasons for doing it.

They do it in the following section.

They do it in the following section. Section 49 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, is amended by section 29 of the Bill and when it comes to amending other provisions in the Road Traffic Act, 1961, they have a rigmarole of a Schedule extending over six pages: and this is to be the law to govern road traffic, condition of vehicle, insurance, and so on; and this is the law which the public are expected to know and motorists are expected to know! I should like to hear the Minister try to justify this kind of scraggy approach to important legislation. I do not know how he could begin to do it.

There is another matter which is of crucial importance in regard to drunken driving and I should like to hear the Minister for Local Government on this important matter. In the Road Traffic Act, 1961, drunken driving is constituted an offence and the punishment for the offence is laid down in subsection (2) of the section. I should like to read it because it is important. It says:

(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for any term not exceeding six months or, at the discretion of the court, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to both such imprisonment and such fine.

I think every Member of the Legislature would regard me as a fool if I were to say that drunken driving is only a minor offence. That would be contrary to everything we believe to be the position. I believe it would be contrary to what the public think. If we were caught in the horrible position of being arrested for drunken driving, faced with automatic disqualification for one year from driving, with a fine of up to £100, which might not be very much, but faced also with imprisonment for six months as being faced with a very serious offence. The position, however, is that whatever way the law has been enacted, or whatever way the Constitution has been enacted the Supreme Court in this country says, and what the Minister now proposes in this Bill is to say also, that drunken driving is a minor offence. That is what the Minister is advising us to do. I think everybody will agree that drunken driving is regarded by the public, and we all regard it, as a serious offence, a major offence, because it involves injury to life and limb. If a person is found guilty of drunken driving and kills somebody because he is drunk it is a serious offence. It is the drunken driving that is a serious offence but, as I say, what the Minister is inviting us to do by leaving subsection (2) of section 49 of the 1961 Act unamended is to continue what the Supreme Court says in the case of Conroy v. the Attorney General, that drunken driving is an offence. It may be necessary—some members of the House might think that what I am saying is not correct and in order to know what we are doing in this Bill I think it is necessary to refer to the particular report in which the Supreme Court came to this conclusion. It is a case of Conroy v. the Attorney General and Michael Keaveney reported in the law reports. Irish Reports, 1965, page 411—the judgment of the Supreme Court by Mr. Justice Walsh. There is only one judgment as in constitutional law cases —and this case related to the constitutionality of section 49 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961—there can be only one judgment. I quote from page 436 of the Report:

The primary consideration in determining whether an offence be a minor one or not is the punishment which it may attract. An offence which is in itself by ordinary standards and by its nature trivial and morally indifferent may, nevertheless, by the severity of the punishment it attracts, cease for the purposes of the Constitution to be a minor offence.

It goes on to say:

This view is in accord with the decision in Melling's Case (1). It was there accepted that punishment by six or nine months' imprisonment or a fine or penalty of £100 was not in itself sufficient to exclude certain offences under the Customs Acts from the category of minor offences.

It goes on to deal with the offence created by section 49 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, as follows:

Therefore, the first consequence of a conviction is that an accused person who has been found guilty is liable to be sentenced to six months' imprisonment and fined £100.

At page 438, and this is where we, the Oireachtas, come into it or came into it in 1961, the report says:

It is of no assistance to speculate on this topic because even if it is to be deemed to be a statutory indication of the opinion of the Oireachtas that the offence can never be regarded as a trivial one that does not necessarily take it outside the category of minor offences.

This is the crucial point:

In the Court's opinion a punishment of six months' imprisonment and £100 fine is not in itself so severe as to exclude an offence which attracts that penalty from the category of minor offences.

If one were to translate that for the purpose of my argument, it means that the fine of £100 or six months' imprisonment provided for in section 49 (2) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, is the kind of punishment which one attaches to something that is only a minor offence and that the offence of drunken driving under that subsection of section 49 is, in the opinion of the Supreme Court, having regard to the provisions of the Constitution enacted in 1937, only a minor offence; and the Minister in this Bill, notwithstanding public opinion, proposes to leave drunken driving in the category of minor offences.

One would have thought that the automatic disqualification from driving for one year which follows on a conviction for drunken driving was punishment because in the case of a lorry driver, a commercial traveller, a doctor or even Members of the Oireachtas, the deprivation of driving a car for 12 months is a very heavy punishment. The Supreme Court held that was not so. At page 411, they said:

In so far as it may be classed as a punishment at all it is not a primary or direct punishment but rather an order which may, according to the circumstances of the particular individual concerned, assume, though remotely, a punitive character.

One must not lose sight, however, of the real nature of the disqualification order which is that it is essentially a finding of unfitness of the person concerned to hold a driving licence.

I suppose most Members of the Oireachtas would have thought when they were enacting the 1961 legislation that when a person is found guilty of drunken driving and automatically deprived of his licence for a year that they were imposing a very severe punishment on the person concerned, especially in the case of a person who happened to be deriving his livelihood from the driving of a truck, a bus or whatever it might be. But the Supreme Court held that was not so but that the disqualification is a finding of unfitness to drive. At page 442 they say:

Though it may have punitive consequences disqualification cannot be regarded as a punishment in the sense in which that term is used in considering the gravity of an offence by reference to punishment it may attract upon conviction such as imprisonment or a fine, but rather is a finding of unfitness.

I think it well to call the attention of the House to these passages in the judgment of the Supreme Court because we should be under no illusion as to what we are doing in this Bill by leaving section 49 (2) unamended. What we are doing is—let there be no doubt about it—we are continuing to say, notwithstanding all public thinking and some private opinions about drunken driving, if we leave it unamended, that drunken driving is only a minor offence. I do not think that expresses the views of the people of the country and that is something to which the Minister might have adverted in his speech because it is a very important judgment in relation to the very section of the Act about which Part V of the Bill is taken up.

It is the very section, the pith of the Act, with which the Minister was so much concerned in the earlier part of his speech on Second Reading here today. I think the House must seriously consider whether it will not elevate, notwithstanding the consequences, the offence of drunken driving from being a minor offence to being something of a more serious character and that the House should at a later stage, by increasing the punishment, clearly indicate its view of drunken driving—that it is a serious offence. If that involves other changes, these changes could be readily made by the people of the country by any referendum seeking amendment of the Constitution that the Government might think it necessary to bring in. I have no doubt that if, because of the Constitutional position, the Government wanted to seek to enact in the Constitution a provision that the offence of drunken driving should be tried in the Circuit Court without a jury, they would have no difficulty whatever, unlike the PR Bill, in getting the wholehearted assent of all political parties in this country to the enactment of that amendment.

In relation to the question of drunken driving, though the Minister indicated what the position in Eastern countries is—we know what the position is in the UK concerning drunken driving—I am not too happy as to what the position is in the Scandinavian countries. As I understand it, Sweden, which for many years had the breathaliser test and made it an offence to have a certain alcoholic content in the blood, has abandoned the whole system of breathaliser tests, judging drunkenness by reference to the alcoholic content of the blood. I do not know why that is so. I am sure the Minister knows the reasons for that and I should be glad if he can tell us why Sweden has abandoned these tests and if he has any comment to make on that. It might be helpful to Members of the Oireachtas, particularly in relation to the determination of the particular level, to have some idea of the experience of one country which adopted this and then abandoned it.

Still in relation to drunken driving, I have often thought it, to use a neutral word, sad that somebody who has come out of a public house or hotel or club in a condition which is obviously drunken and clearly unfit to drive has been permitted by a member of the Garda Síochána in the vicinity to commit the crime of attempting to drive while drunk. I have always believed and I think that with most members of the Garda, the attitude is that their role is for the preservation of law and order and for the prevention of crime but I have known of cases, not numerous, in which the crime has been permitted to be committed when it might very well have been averted by a friendly word from the garda. If the garda comes up and says to the person: "I do not think you are in a condition to drive" and the fellow says: "I am"——

A Senator

Or words to that effect.

Or words to that effect, then, of course, he gets whatever is coming to him, but where the garda is on duty and sees somebody in that kind of condition and about to drive, in fairness and as part of the duty of preserving law and order, the garda should say: "In my opinion you are not fit to drive and I do not think you should." If the fellow says he is, well and good, let him take what is coming to him. One has had experience of the consequences of that kind of thing and it does not add to the honour of and to the noble role which a member of the Garda is always expected to play.

This Bill is entitled the Road Traffic Bill and perhaps we are making progress in that we did not introduce it as the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill. I would have thought whatever was the position in 1933, when the Road Traffic Act was first introduced, that in modern times the emphasis should be on road safety. This Bill is all about road safety and I would have thought that the Minister would have made a much more positive approach in the matter of the Title of the Bill. I would much prefer if it was known as the Road Safety Bill. We are talking about road safety rather than about road traffic and there should have been the positive approach to which I have referred to the problems we are dealing with. The Title should have been that of the Road Safety Bill and if necessary the Road Traffic Act of 1961 could have been amended to read the Road Safety Act of 1961. It would be better if people were prosecuted under the Road Safety Act, it would help more to get the idea of road safety across to the public.

While a good deal has been done in relation to road safety by voluntary bodies and by the work of the Garda to my own knowledge in the schools, that is the best place to get at the children and to inculcate in them the principles of road safety, and also by the Department of Local Government, I do not think the Minister can be satisfied that enough is being done in the way of propaganda for road safety. Sporadic efforts are made, generally around the bank holiday weekends, at Christmas and occasionally throughout the year, by means of cartoons on bad driving but I am satisfied that there is not sufficient concentration on any one aspect of road safety at a particular time to make the public alive to what ought and ought not be done in relation to traffic on the roads.

This is a matter that cannot be over-emphasised and it is a matter for those who are skilled in advertising and propaganda to advise the Minister. One sees many wrong things done on the road and very little by way of correction in road safety propaganda, particularly on television. A great deal more could be done in this direction. It may be expensive but the expense would be well justified and films made for the purpose of road safety will bear repetition and constant showing to bring their message home to the public. No amount of legislation can make good drivers of bad drivers, no more than any legislation can make alcoholics sober but the Bill does try to provide the framework within which the Minister, the Garda and the public can co-operate in making better use of the roads. Again, this is a matter for persons skilled in road safety, advertising and propaganda but I am firmly of the view that there is no equal to good manners and courtesy on the road when it comes to the question of safety.

It is not so much the bad or unskilful driver that is the dangerous driver as the impatient and discourteous driver. One has seen on many occasions the number and variety of people who are incorrigibly unskilful drivers but who have never met with an accident. I remember one person who was said to have had two guardian angels, one brought on on special duty when he went driving because he was a most unskilful driver but he never met with an accident because he was patient and always courteous. He lived to a ripe old age. It is, again, a matter for the Minister and the Department to popularise the idea of being a courteous driver and a good one. I do not think there is sufficient attention given to the matter of being good and skilful drivers. There is not half enough propaganda about people being good drivers, nor is there any status for one who is a good driver.

In relation to the causes of accidents I am satisfied as a lawyer and, perhaps, as a driver, that the main causes of accidents are speed—the consequences of accidents are the more serious depending upon the speed— passing out and overtaking at the wrong time, and drunken driving. We may be able to eliminate or reduce substantially the incidence of drunken driving but the Garda, while they pay a good deal of attention to what goes on in the city, should have patrols out on the country roads to see some of the overtaking that takes place and the refusal of some heavy truck drivers, not all of them, to keep in, in order to allow others to overtake. If there were more Garda patrols on the roads in relation to this matter these people would soon pay attention and not do the wrong things. There is not half enough supervision on the main country roads, the roads between Dublin and Cork, Dublin and Limerick, Dublin and Ballina. It is on these roads that people drive at a great speed.

A friend of mine and I travelling frequently to the west of Ireland in the same car have begun to take our own count of dangerous driving. Both of us being lawyers and having an eye to what constitutes dangerous driving, we have worked it out that in any journey of 150 miles one finds on the average about 2½ cases or five cases out of two journeys of undoubted dangerous driving that would warrant the drivers concerned being hauled into court and convicted. That is just one car travelling 300 miles. For that reason I feel that on the long stretches of road where people get up speed, where people overtake at high speed, and where people are inclined to cut corners and so on and when one sees the consequences, more activity along that line by the gardaí in their patrol cars or on their motor bicycles could have a very beneficial and sobering effect upon the dangerous drivers among us. I do not know that Ministers are in a particular position to judge this kind of driving because, of course, they do not have to drive. I do not suppose that the Ministers' advisers would know a great deal about that either——

They do not drink.

——because they spend a great deal of their time I take it working these things out on paper. I am quite certain that my experience can be repeated by other Members of the Oireachtas.

With regard to speed, while I am on that subject, I suppose there are few of us who have not, at some stage or another, through the failure of the local authorities to provide speed-limit warnings in places where they can be seen been caught exceeding the speed limit.

Confession is good for the soul. I have in mind one particular occasion when I was actually slowing down and looking for the sign and I was already within the area and was caught.

What proportion would that be of the number of times you might have been caught?

Very small. If you are on a journey I think it is a great rest to slow down and proceed easily. That is my view of it. What I want to say is that I am not at all happy that the gardaí, and this may be due to policy, pay sufficient attention to the observance of the speed limit in the suburbs of Dublin. The road I live on is off the Bray Road in through Kilmacud, in through Goatstown, in through Ranelagh, and from 8 a.m. to 10 a.m. the speed of cars going down that road into town and of cars coming home in the evening between 5 and 6.30 is appalling. Certainly in the morning when children are going to school even if one wants to stop and let them pass one cannot do so because of the speed of the on-coming traffic and because one would be holding up traffic behind one for God knows how long. I feel that sufficient gardaí should be put on duty to enable much more frequent surveillance of the motorists passing in all these suburban areas to be carried out. That may be very unpopular but if we are to have speed limits, and they are absolutely essential in suburban Dublin, we should see that they are enforced because it is deluding parents to let small children out to school in the belief that there is a 40 miles per hour speed limit. One sees the unhappy consequences, mangled children, because of children being knocked off bicycles going to and coming from school.

In that connection, and I am told it is a matter for the Garda Síochána and not for the local authorities, there are not anything like a sufficient number of pedestrian crossings in suburban Dublin. Where I live is within a short distance of the Goatstown Cross, a site familiar to very many people. In the last month there has been, I think, three accidents at that cross because of failure to observe the speed limit. Not alone that but it is absolutely perilous for anybody to cross from one side of the road to the other because there is no pedestrian crossing in sight. There are many places around the city of Dublin where there should be pedestrian crossings. I do not think it is a very expensive exercise on the part of the local authority when requested by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and I feel there is a need for a rash of pedestrian crossings all around suburban Dublin. The same applies in many small towns in the country especially when we realise that the gardaí cannot be always on the tails of speeding motorists. When people will career in and out of these areas at 60 and 70 miles an hour the need for pedestrian crossings is absolutely urgent. I feel that the Minister should urge upon the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and the local authorities to take urgent and adequate steps to remedy this deficiency.

The Minister has referred to on-the-spot-fines. In reply to a Parliamentary question recently a figure was given that for the first five years of the operation of the on-the-spot-fines a sum of £250,000 was collected. In many cases people are obliged to park in places where parking is prohibited simply because there is no other place to park and also because the limit on parking in places for one hour is not at all observed and the parking for that period is not enforced anything like sufficiently. If the word got around after a suitable warning by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána that the time limit for parking in inner Dublin was going to be enforced there would be fewer people fined because there would be a greater turnover of vacancies and a greater number of places for people to park.

I feel it is most unfair that motorists who pay high motor taxation, high insurance and a high price for petrol, much of which is taxation, should find themselves in a position where they cannot use their cars simply because either the time limits are not being enforced or the local authorities have not provided anything like sufficient car parking spaces. In the Dublin town plan which is to operate for the period of five years from last October there is a pitifully small amount of car parking accommodation for the whole city. I think it is only something like 1,000 new spaces for car parking in the city of Dublin. If there are going to be on-the-spot fines for car parking I would suggest that instead of diverting this money to the Exchequer, if people are fined they should have the benefit of the fine in the allocation of that money to the provision of new car park accommodation. Certainly something must be done, and done urgently, with regard to car parking.

One of the regrets that I have about the on-the-spot-fines for car parking is that this is the very kind of thing that alienates people from the gardaí whose unpleasant duty it is to affix these abominable tickets on the windscreens of cars. This kind of pin-pricking fines which are necessary—because I believe that the parking time limits should be enforced — alienates the population from the members of the Garda Síochána. Perfectly law abiding citizens who would never dream of being guilty of a breach of the law find themselves approached by a member of the Garda Síochána for parking in places where literally they have no option but to park in.

Regarding another aspect of road safety one finds that, again for really no justifiable cause, the local authorities fall down very badly in the lighting of our cities and towns. If one were to travel from, say, Clonskeagh Bridge south for three or four miles and see the manner in which the roads have been lighted, with ten poles on one side, two on the next, then five on the other side, then you go on for five, then three on, and then two, sometimes some of them ten or 15 feet off the road, that is regarded as a lighted road by the public authority, one would just wonder why they bothered to put bulbs in them at all. The danger of that kind of lighting is that people proceed upon what I do not regard as safe, on their parking lights, from a well lit area into this kind of trap, and then find themselves in a pool of darkness, and, as we have seen, run into some parked car or into a pedestrian they had not seen though they believed they saw their way because there were lights on the road and they were coming from a road that was lighted. That is a highly dangerous exercise. We have seen people killed because of bad lighting by the public authorities. When I speak about the public authorities I do not mean the elected members—I want to make that entirely clear—of Dublin Corporation or County Council or Louth County Council or Cork County Council or anybody else of that kind. What I mean are the county managers and the county engineers. They are the people responsible. Sometimes people criticise Dublin Corporation, and the elected representatives are regarded as being the culprits, but they have not got a say in what is being done and often if they make recommendations they may be ignored. The county managers and the county engineers are responsible for these things. They have a responsibility which they do not discharge. We have seen fatal consequences of the failure of these people to discharge their duty in this regard.

While I am on the duty of the local authorities, again one sees a reluctance on the part of local authorities to erect in obvious places road traffic signs indicating turns to the left, dangerous points, hump-backed bridges or dangers of that kind. Again, the person responsible in all these cases is the county engineer and his staff or the city engineer and his staff. One has seen too often a rider to a jury's verdict that in their opinion a sign should be erected at a place where an accident took place. We have seen a number of cases in which motor cars have gone in over the edges of rivers and into the quays in Cork and Dublin city and elsewhere because there never was any adequate protection provided, again by the local authorities, who are the county manager and the county engineer or the city manager and engineer as the case may be. Then everybody asks: "Is it not a desperate tragedy?" These unfortunate tragedies have occurred in this city and in Cork in recent times, and they will occur again, because of the failure of the officials of the local authorities to waken up to their responsibilities and to see the necessity of erecting either safeguards against cars going into rivers and over quays or in other cases to erect proper warning signs in time.

In that connection, too, I may say that the local authorities—and that is again the county engineer and his staff and the county manager—all over the country leave stretches of road, because of whatever crazy system of grants we operate in this country, in a disgraceful condition from the expiry of one grant until the granting of another grant. One finds on occasion people, because of a lack of any warning, running into cobbles and sharp stones and so on or on to a fairly high bank of materials into the middle of one grant until the allocation of danger of the motorist and of his passengers, because of the failure of the staff of the various local authorities to perform the minimal duty of erecting appropriate signs to warn people.

I hope that the Minister for Local Government who can influence these matters with the local authorities will exercise himself upon these things. There is a great deal to be done which will be costly, but the task is one of rendering our roads safer merely by erecting signs or erecting barriers at quays and other dangerous places. The fact is that a great deal has to be done, but merely by doing these things you san save some of the lives that will certainly be lost if these activities are not undertaken by the local authorities.

In relation to the use of vehicles there are provisions in this Bill, and it is not easy at a glance to say how far they go, but an obvious necessity is that vehicles of a particular age should be subject to certification by the public service vehicles inspector or some other authority before they are licensed, before road traffic taxation is granted to them. There is no doubt at all in my mind that there are cars on the road—and one has only to see the prices paid for them from time to time to assess their roadworthiness — which the insurance companies insured and which should long since have been on the scrapheap. I have seen in my time vans and motor cars which would not pass any standard of road safety, even the lowest that might be fixed, yet insurance companies issue insurance in respect of those vehicles. Very oftentimes they have neither brakes nor good steering and they are only kept together with bits of wire and solder. There should undoubtedly be an obligation upon people who have a vehicle of a particular registration year—vehicles, say, five year old or older or whatever the period is—to have them examined by a public service vehicles inspector before they are permitted to tax them, and if that were done there are many cases, I am sure, in which these vehicles would not pass the standard. Such vehicles should neither be insured nor allowed to be on the road.

When it comes to what "safe" means, if one wants to have regard for one's own skin, I do not think you are going to get a great deal of assistance from the Department of Local Government. Mind you, if the Department of Local Government were of any use to the motoring public they ought to be able to tell them what type of safety belt to use, first of all, if it is right, proper and useful to have them, secondly, what kind of safety belts are safe and useful to use, thirdly, which are the best tyres. Of course, to do that is repugnant to a Civil Service department because they would have to take a decision. I should like them to say: "Those are the best safety belts to use", if they are up to standard but the Department of Local Government do not do this. They owe it to the motoring public to set standards for various components of motor vehicles and for road safety. The Minister should give some indication as to whether it is intended to do this at any time. Recently, I concluded—I do not know whether I am right or not—that radial three ply tyres were the best for road holding and for braking. I want to point out to the Minister that when I looked for radial three ply tyres there was not a set of them to be got in this country and that was after granting a monopoly to an Irish firm.

Senator FitzGerald reminds me that it was because of granting a monopoly to an Irish manufacturer. That is not good enough and the public are entitled, if they want to buy tyres which will ensure maximum safety for their vehicles, to be able to get them and especially if they are to be manufactured there should be at least one set available in the whole of Dublin. The main suppliers here in Dublin did not have a set of four tyres available and when an inquiry was made as to when they would be available I was told they would not be available earlier than a month. That is the kind of situation which the Minister for Local Government should look into and have a word about it with his colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Apart from that, and that is incidental to my main point, the Department of Local Government or some State-constituted body with expert knowledge should be in a position to recommend to members of the motoring public what is up to standard and what is safe. Motor factors and motor traders should be able to supply the accessories which are safest to use on the road. We do not know what is the best to use. We do not know what is even good. There ought to be some authority able to set safety standards which should be achieved. Perhaps the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards would be the best to do this but there certainly ought to be some body who should be able to say that if you use a particular thing you are using something useful and safe. We have not got that at present.

I want to comment on the functioning of the 1961 Act which contained one innovation which it was thought would do much to contribute to road safety. That was section 53 which provided for the first time that a person who was guilty of dangerous driving and caused death or serious bodily harm would be liable to be convicted on indictment. What it was proposed to do under section 53 was to get rid of the old charge of manslaughter simpliciter arising out of dangerous driving and to bring in a new offence of dangerous driving causing death and there was added dangerous driving causing serious bodily harm. So far as this section of the Act is concerned, it has been a disastrous flop from the point of view of the Government and those concerned with road safety. The truth of the matter is that juries in this country are not prepared to brand as a criminal and to have sent to jail anybody who has been guilty of dangerous driving causing bodily harm or anybody who has been guilty of dangerous driving causing death unless it is a flagrant case.

I have not got the figures for the last six years but I have here a figure showing that in the year ended 30th September, 1967, 106 persons were indicted under section 53 of the 1961 Act and of those 76, that is about 75 per cent, were acquitted, 20 were convicted and a nolle prosequi entered in seven cases and three cases were adjourned sine die or otherwise disposed of. So, we can say that of 106 people indicted under section 53 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, in the year ended 30th September, 1967, 84 were not convicted. That is a situation where you have, first, an examination of the cases by the Attorney General, then a preliminary inquiry by a district justice as to whether or not there is prima facie evidence to go before a jury.

It certainly is a high mortality rate and I think fairly clearly indicates that section 53, as drafted, is not working. What it means is that in many of those 84 cases there probably would be sufficient evidence to enable any district justice to convict, and on conviction to enable the circuit court on appeal to confirm the conviction under section 53. So far from bringing to justice those guilty of dangerous driving causing serious bodily harm or causing death, section 53 is providing not a loophole but a yawning gap through which they escape at present. I would have liked to have heard the comment of the Minister for Local Government on this particular section. This section, among lawyers, was always regarded as a bad section. From the first day it appeared in the Road Traffic Bill, 1961, it was regarded as a bad section because it seemed wrong to convict a person of a crime by reference to the consequence it has. Indeed, the section as drafted does not in my view—and it remains to be determined whether it is correct —constitute an offence of dangerous driving causing death or dangerous driving causing grievous bodily harm. It constitutes the offence of dangerous driving only and subsection (2) requires that in proof of the offence it be decided what kind of punishment is to be meted out. Depending upon the consequences the offender is liable to different forms of punishment. The offence in the section is the offence of dangerous driving.

In my view the section is a bad section because it is creating an offence by reference to the consequences. What we should be trying to deal with is dangerous driving. Whether the result of the driving is to kill a bullock or a valuable racehorse should not matter if the person has driven dangerously. What has happened in fact, in any event, is that the section has not worked out the way it was intended to. The Minister for Local Government should address himself to remedying what, I believe, is a defect in our present legal system in that many people escape conviction on a charge of dangerous driving because of the reluctance of a jury to brand a person as a criminal and send him to jail for the offence of dangerous driving unless it is associated with some flagrant breach of the law, such as being hopelessly drunk while driving. I should like the views of the Minister for Local Government, and indeed the views of the Minister for Justice on this.

The provision to get rid of the guarantee in relation to insurance, or the insurance of a vehicle, is quite correct. We now have members of the Garda Síochána put in a position that they have to ask if a person has a certificate of insurance or a certificate of guarantee or a certificate of combined insurance and guarantee if they are enquiring if a person is entitled to be on the road. This rigmarole will now be reduced if the inquiry relates only to a certificate of insurance. There will be no question of combined certificate; that is gone.

There is a tremendous defect in the present regulations, made under the Road Traffic Act, 1961, in relation to the insurance of motor cycles. As I understand the position there is no obligation on a motor cyclist in law to take out insurance against damages that may be caused to the pillion passenger, the reason being that insurance companies will not give insurance at all to motor cyclists if they had to insure the pillion passenger as well. What the law is saying is that the insurance companies regard pillion passengers as a highly dangerous risk and therefore they will not cover them because they are a highly dangerous risk. That seems to be a correct statement of the regulations made in Part VI of the Road Traffic Act, 1961. It is something I should like to hear about from the Minister for Local Government in due course. It seems to me to be a crazy situation.

One has seen from one's experience again and again the young person who has been maimed for life, thrown absolutely on the human scrapheap— a young person of 17 or 18 years of age—and not a halfpenny of compensation to come from any source whatever and the law says that is correct. Either motor cycles are so dangerous that we should not allow pillion passengers on them at all or we should provide some form of insurance for those whom the law permits to ride pillion on motor bicycles. That is a matter of which the public is not generally aware. I am not certain that young lads who get up on motor bicycles and think that it is great fun know that if anything happens they will get no compensation. They ask the driver if he is insured and if he says "I am" they are quite happy but if the pillion passenger ends up maimed with several fractures in hospital he has the barren comfort of knowing that the driver was insured but that he himself will not get compensation from any source. That is a bad situation to allow the young and inexperienced members of our community to find themselves in.

On the question of driving tests, I think that the move to regularise the position in relation to instruction is probably a good one. I would not at all say that the high incidence of failures in driving tests—which I think is as high as 55 per cent—is due to inability on the part of the instructors. A figure was given us recently in relation to the number of failures in first year university students. I do not know the figure. Perhaps Senator Garret FitzGerald could supply it. It is quite a high percentage at any rate.

I do not want to open a controversy. We had Professor Quinlan already on this point.

I think it is as high as 20 per cent and that is in relation to people who had every opportunity of doing their work. People will fail examinations. Certainly if people are looking at one to see how one is driving or if one is under examination I am quite certain from experience that one will drive a good deal less skil-fully than one would in the ordinary course. The fact that you are being watched is the cause of a great proportion of the failures, some of which are due to nerves. The high rate of failures hinges on that rather than the skill or quality of the driving instructors.

As the Minister has said, there are many things in the Bill which will call for more detailed examination on Committee Stage and I hope that we will be able to take the Committee Stage next week because we cannot enact this Bill too quickly in its final form. I hope the preliminary work is being done on such regulations as have to be made under the Act and that preliminary steps are being taken to recruit the staff and so on and to obtain the equipment referred to in the explanatory memorandum. I do not think we can go too quickly in having this Bill enacted and the Minister can be certain of the fullest co-operation from my part of the House in having it enacted at the earliest possible date. As I have said, I trust it will be possible to have the Committee Stage next week.

I should like to welcome this Bill and, in regard to the objectives which the Minister has set out to achieve in it, I fully support what he proposes to do. Any minor reservations I may have in regard to detail can best be dealt with on Committee Stage. With regard to the way in which the Bill was drafted, I have more than minor reservations. Now and again in the course of one of Senator O'Quigley's all-embracing speeches I find myself in agreement with one or two points which he makes and certainly in regard to his comments on the drafting of this Bill, I agree with him.

It will not be easy to interpret the Road Traffic Acts of 1961 and 1968. It will be very difficult to interpret the 1961 Act as amended by the 1968 Act. We have in the Bill which we are dealing with what one might call five categories of amendments or changes. We have minor amendments which are set out in the Schedule; we have numerous major amendments; we have another form of amendment which is called a substitution; we have repeals; and just to make the matter a little bit more difficult, we have in section 53 not a repeal but a provision to say that a certain part of the 1961 Act shall cease to have effect, which, I suppose, is another form of repeal. The whole thing adds up to something which will be extremely difficult to interpret. I have no hesitation, in any event, in saying that anybody with an alcohol level of 125 milligrammes could not possibly interpret this Act.

Anybody who wants to find out what the position now is, if he is considering whether something he intends to do is contrary to the Road Traffic Acts, or if he is accused of an offence against the Road Traffic Acts, it will create very considerable difficulty for him, and I think no layman could possibly be expected to do it. If it is the wish of the establishment to minimise the functions of the courts and to minimise the necessity for lawyers—and many Bills which they have introduced and many of their executive acts in recent years suggest they would like to minimise the functions of the courts and the necessity for lawyers— certainly the introduction of this type of Bill will not achieve this purpose, because there is no doubt that it will employ a great deal of time on the part of lawyers and a great deal of time on the part of the courts to interpret the amendments introduced by this Bill and the combined meaning, the combined effect of these two Acts.

It seems a pity that with all the resources which the Minister has and all the resources which the Parliamentary draftsmen have, they could not have introduced a consolidation Act or an Act which would incorporate the provisions of the 1961 Act in this Bill. We have from time to time consolidation Acts which attempt to incorporate all the Acts dealing with a particular subject. Sometimes these go back 20, 30, sometimes hundreds of years, and certainly in a case like that, where the position has got out of hand during the years, there is no possibility of tidying up the law on a particular subject except by the introduction of a consolidating Act. However, in this case we are dealing only with the 1961 Act, generally speaking, and I think it is a great pity that rather than finding ourselves in the position in five, ten or 20 years of having a mass of law dealing with road traffic, we should not have brought the law up to date by incorporating the 1961 Act and this Act together. It would be making it easier for everyone to understand what the law is in relation to road traffic. I think this is particularly necessary in this kind of an Act because practically everybody in the country is concerned at one time or another, in one way or another, with the laws of the road, so that in this case in particular it would have been particularly suitable that a Bill incorporating the 1961 Act should have been introduced.

That is really the only point I intend to make about the Bill at this stage. As I have said, I am in general agreement with its objectives. I agree most of the purposes which the Minister wishes to achieve are ones which need to be achieved. There is a pressing need for amendment of the law in regard to drunken driving and even though the provisions contained in the Bill may seem to be extreme, may seem to be harsh and may, in certain circumstances, lead to hardship in individual cases, nevertheless we are dealing with a problem that is so acute and so serious that only very drastic measures can deal with it. I certainly support what is contained in the Bill.

Like the previous speakers, I wish to support the Bill and to commend it to the House. Coming as it does to implement most of the major recommendations of the Commission of 1961, it is to be welcomed. I should like to support the criticism made by Senator Ryan that it would have been far better if we could have had a consolidation measure. That applies not only to this but to many other Bills. Time after time we criticised amending Bills coming in here which made changes in the parent Bill —new figures being put in when in most cases it would have been much easier to interpret and much better legislation. This is one case indeed where the situation calls for a consolidation measure. However, at this stage we do not wish to hold up the enactment of this long overdue legislation by imposing the delay that a consolidation measure would involve.

The Bill is to be welcomed because it shows that the Government are coming to grips with one of our most serious problems, drunken driving. At the same time, they are also coming to grips with what has been a great contributing factor to road accidents—the part played by pedestrians and cyclists —and I welcome the sections in the Bill that will make it possible to deal with transgressions by pedestrians and cyclists in the manner in which they should be dealt with. Above all, I should like to see a very rigid enforcement of the rule that pedestrians should at all times walk facing the approaching traffic. It is the rule that the reverse is the case. I feel that there should be, concomitant with the Bill, a general press and television campaign to get pedestrians to obey this necessary and vital injunction that they should walk at all times facing on-coming traffic.

The question of drunken driving and the breathaliser test is still a controversial one. Many authorities do not feel that the test is as scientific as it is generally supposed to be. You get serious variations in the responses of different individuals to it but it is my opinion that a positive test above a certain figure should be taken as conclusive evidence. However, I think that for the first two, three or four years it would be better if a reading from a breathaliser test above a certain minimum was regarded as prima facie evidence and that the defendant should be given an opportunity at his own expense, and it would probably be considerable, of producing contrary evidence based on other examination or whatever else could be produced to test the validity of the breathaliser test. In this way the motoring public themselves would provide the necessary corroborative, and experimental evidence necessary to fit the breathaliser test into the framework of Irish conditions.

As an approach to something that is supposed to be a scientific test we should be slow to give to the breathaliser test the absolute dependability given to it by making it conclusive evidence from the very start. I would appeal to the Minister that for a period of three or four years after the passage of the Bill the evidence provided by the breathaliser test should be regarded as prima facie evidence.

The introduction of speed limits is highly desirable but when we speak of speed limits generally people think of excessive speed, whereas on the roads today the slow moving traffic and the slow moving lorries are a much greater hazard than the fast moving, well-driven car. Consequently, in any attempt to bring in speed limits I would like to see a minimum speed limit brought in for trucks on our main highways. Otherwise, the trucks ambling along at 30 or 35 miles an hour would cause congestion of traffic and provide inducements for the more irresponsible drivers to cut out. I ask the Minister to see that this question of a minimum limit for trucks and lorries is dealt with. There is also the question of trucks proceeding along the roads in convoy. These make it much more hazardous to pass out and minimum conditions of space between such vehicles and a minimum speed for them should be sought.

I was very much taken by Senator O'Quigley's speech and by all the advice he wishes to get from the Department of Local Government and the research which he wishes that Department to carry out. He wished to have about half a dozen research projects given to the Department but we cannot expect any Government Department to come out and make a categorical statement as to which is the best make of tyre for Irish road conditions. One can imagine the repercussions from the other tyre manufacturers who would feel that they were aggrieved. This research would be very costly, much more costly than to put a jingle on television as to which is the best make of tyres. The most we can do in the case of this and other safety devices is to see that we have minimum standards fixed and implemented. When it comes to setting standards the appropriate body to do this is the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards which is designed for this work. That body could easily recommend the minimum standards for tyres and safety devices.

There are many points in the Bill about which I am not very happy but we can go into these at much greater length on Committee Stage. However, it seems to me that we will need to look carefully at the section of the Bill which takes powers from the Commissioner of the Garda and transfers them to the Department of Local Government. That is a move in the wrong direction. We should examine the powers that are being transferred and we should expect the Minister to give us good reasons for this reversal of good government. Our aim should be to take powers away from the various State Departments rather than have them taking in trivial powers.

I am not very happy with the idea of a lesser class of public servant coming along to enforce road traffic legislation. We are all happy with the high standing of the Garda in this country, with their well-known impartiality and with their general approach to crime which is to prevent it if at all possible. The Minister would want to think carefully before bringing in a second force because this second force are to be less than the gardaí. That is the case that is made. They are to have lesser physical attainments and also presumably lesser mental attainments. They will be paid considerably less. What can we expect then from this force and how can we recruit any young men into this ancillary force? What promotion do we offer to them out of this post or is it just going to be a dead-end £10 a week job going around putting stickers on motor cars?

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.

I should like to mention just a few points though this is largely a Committee Bill and I should like to mention particular things that are not in the Bill, if you, Sir, think that that is in order. One thing I should like to know is whether under the powers in this Bill or the parent Act we could apply speed limits to particular person. We have speed limits under section 24, which applies to sections of roads, but I think that there is a very good case for applying them to particular persons (a) persons after they have received their first driving licence, for a certain time, and (b) persons who possibly have been involved in particular minor or even serious driving offences, that they should be limited to speeds for a year, two years or five years.

It may be that it would be difficult to enforce this, but the Garda are perfectly familiar with those people locally in any case and they could give their numbers to the gardaí who go around with the radar equipment and it would in any case be a deterrent to them over a certain number of years. I think it was contemplated, whether it is a fact or not in Northern Ireland and in England, that there should be a speed limit for people on receiving their first driving licences for a year or two years, that they should not exceed a certain speed. I think it would be very good to have that here, and also that the gardaí might possibly limit persons' driving speed for a certain number of years after being convicted of an offence.

Another matter I should like to see is that all school warning signs should also have the figure 30 on them, that there should be a speed limit going past all schools of 30 miles an hour. At present we have a warning sign showing children crossing the road, but I think that on the main roads in any case the schools are not all that frequent, and they will be less frequent but there will be more children going to them, and it would be a good idea to have the school signs incorporating the 30 miles an hour sign as well.

Another point that interests me is that there is a section—unfortunately, I have left my notes behind me—in the Bill limiting the signs that may be put up, traffic signs or anything like traffic signs, to those approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána or the Minister and prohibiting any other signs being erected. There is one sign particularly that people probably erect without permission. Farmers erect them without permission, I presume, in many cases because some of them are very badly written. But there is one sign familiar to me as a countryman, knowing the times when these things are likely to occur. This sign, I should mention, is "Cattle Crossing". Very often a farmer has his farmyard right alongside the road, and on one side of the road, and across the road is his land. At least twice a day the cattle are going to cross the road and you are going to come on a string of cows to be milked, going out in the morning and coming in in the evening. These signs have been a great help to me as a motorist because I know what I can expect, that there might be cattle crossing particularly at those times. To see one of these before you come to a corner is a very helpful warning, and whether every farmer who puts that kind of sign up at present has written in to the Commissioner I am not quite sure but I very much doubt it. I think some local members of the force should be able to help here or some simple method could be devised so that those people could put up such signs. There are possibly many others but that is one which is a great help to motorists particularly those who understand the difficulty of controlling cattle on the road. The only alternative possibly would be for the child of the farmer and his wife to stand at each corner of the road warning traffic.

Another point which I should like to mention has been adverted to by some previous speaker and that is that the gardaí perhaps might be a little more courteous in that they could warn a person whom they thought might be liable to commit an offence. It was mentioned particularly that a person who might be regarded as slightly under the influence of drink could be warned by a garda beforehand. A special type of patrol car could be employed with that particular offence in view, the personnel of which would be courtesy gardaí or something like that. They could stop cars if they thought the drivers were committing a driving offence or driving errors. They could warn such people and point out to them the error of their ways.

There is another problem which I do not think is quite so prevalent now. I refer to cars turning right having indicated they were turning left. I have travelled behind many such cars. They pull into the right or left of the road after putting out the indicator for the opposite side. I presume those people thought that was the correct thing to do. They pull into the left but do not look whether anybody is coming behind them. They suddenly put on their right indicator and turn to the right. I travelled behind one such vehicle. We were not going very hard on that occasion but one felt like getting out and trying to tell those people the error of their ways. There are various things like that which oldish people may be ignorant of but yet they commit those faults every day.

Of course, the common fault is dimming of lights or not dimming. We can all have slight lapses in regard to those things. However, it would help if a car coming up behind on such occasions, particularly if there was a uniformed garda in it, warned those people. It is very common in the city and the towns. People pull out without very much warning from the kerb on either side of the street. I watched this happen where a person pulled out in front of me and on the other side of the street there was a garda whom I expected straight away to speak to the person, but no. If there had been an accident he would be on the spot and I suppose there would be a prosecution but there was no effort made by that garda in that instance. He obviously saw what happened but did not think it was part of his duty to warn the person concerned. I do not know if they have any instructions to warn people when they have committed minor offences. Those are the few points I should like to see covered in the Bill. I do not think there is anything more I should like to say at the moment but if there is I can deal with it on Committee Stage.

I, too, have a couple of points I should like to raise. The first one is a query on the question of the tests. I was informed a few years ago, if I recall correctly, by somebody who was an expert in those matters, that the extent to which alcohol remains in the blood of an individual varies immeasurably and that for any given consumption of alcohol the amount which remains six hours later, 24 hours later, or even a month later can vary enormously. Therefore, someone who consumed on a certain day an amount of alcohol in excess of that appropriate for driving might very well find himself on the following day or the day afterwards when he could reasonably think that he had recovered from his excess, in a position in which, although he had no reason to believe he was over the tolerance, in the event of an accident he would be found to be above the limit. I should like to know what is the expert view on this.

This, if it is correct, creates a problem in regard to those tests. I have no doubt that this provision is necessary. Indeed, in some respects I doubt whether it is stringent enough. However, if there is a problem of this kind so that the individual is not in a position to know with certainty or anything approaching certainty a day or two later after the time he has drunk more than he should, then there is a problem and one which we need to consider. What we should do about it, if it is a problem, I am not clear about myself, but at least it would be necessary that people should be warned about this. If there is a real danger of that some provision should be made to enable people to find out if that is so and to remain on guard. I should like the Minister to give us some indication of what the position is in this respect so that we might consider what, if anything, we need to do about it if this problem exists.

Having said that, I am not sure that in itself the tolerance provided here of 125 is excessive. The evidence that has been adduced in the Minister's opening speech in this debate suggests that it is. I might mention that once you go in excess of 80-100 units the dominant factor of alcohol in the blood becomes the alcohol itself and other figures given also suggest that well below this figure a danger point exists.

I would merely say at this stage, because this figure will not be changed now, that I would hope the Minister would watch the position closely and that if, as I expect, the fall would be as great as in Britain, as soon as that becomes apparant, as it should in a relatively short space of time, he would be prepared to come back with more stringent legislation which would achieve the desired effect. If there is concrete evidence that it has achieved the results achieved in Britain the position could be reviewed and the limit reduced.

I have a few queries that I should like to raise but which can be gone into again on Committee Stage. The Minister states he is taking powers in relation to drunken parkers. There is the phrase "to deal effectively with offenders who evade the law". I find this a rather mysterious phrase. I am not sure why there is the ability to evade the law in the case of drunken parkers as against drunken drivers. The Minister must have something in mind. I have no experience of skilful drunken parkers any more than drunken drivers. I should like to ask what the Minister has in mind in relation to the taking of these powers.

I should also like to know about the eyesight test and the question of how people wearing glasses are covered.

There is one important point which I should like to raise which has been raised by a person living in my constituency. It seems to me a very valid point. It is in relation to the question of tests for the driving of lorries. There is reference to this problem to some degree in the Minister's speech but I do not think it covers the point I have in mind, and which this constituent has in mind. You are required to provide your own vehicle for the driving test. This is reasonable enough for driving a car because people have a car, or they have expectation of having a car, or they can borrow one for the purpose or hire one at a pinch, but what happens with a lorry?

If a driver is employed with a firm in some other capacity the firm will, of course, provide the lorry and this is the normal practice and there is no difficulty. However, if someone who wants to qualify as a lorry driver is not in employment in a firm who will supply the lorry and he has no lorry of his own, is there no means by which he can qualify? I do not know whether this is a matter for this Bill or for the training authority, An Chomhairle Oiliúna, but in regard to people who are qualifying for a semi-skilled trade this is an important matter.

This is a situation which we should not allow to exist. Lorry driving in Ireland is a big industry. There are 40,000 to 50,000 vehicles. There must be a considerable inflow into this trade, and that it should be restricted in this way, that unless people own the lorry or work in a firm where the management want them to become lorry drivers, is unsatisfactory. If I am well informed and if this is the situation, I think some provision must be made. There should be some means by which An Chomhairle Oiliúna should hire out lorries and there should be some means to open up this provision to people who wish to avail of it.

There is reference here to a proposed road authority. I should like to know what is in mind; what kind of road authority? Is it a new body which will be established or are we talking about an existing road authority? The reference to a road authority is vague and I think we ought to know a little more about what is in mind on this particular point.

One of the outstanding changes which has taken place in the life of people in the past 50 years is complete acceptance of the motor vehicle and, having accepted it with all its advantages and many disadvantages, it is to be welcomed that all possible means should be taken to ensure the safety of those who use it and those who do not. The amount of time which the Minister spent in his opening speech on the question of drunken driving would certainly lead one to believe that there is no doubt about it that this Bill will be known in future as the Breathaliser Bill. Certainly, if there is to be any curtailment in serious road accidents the liberties of the individual will have to be surrendered to a certain extent or to a large extent when it comes to taking intoxicating liquor when intending at the same time to drive a motor vehicle.

Not knowing the technicalities of it, I shall leave it to those who know more about it except that I should like to say that all legislation and regulations which are incapable of implementation should be frowned upon but in this particular case I think if it means the saving of even one life it must be welcomed.

The big problem as I see it with road traffic at the present time is the number of county roads which are quite incapable of carrying the traffic on them. One is subjected to narrow roads, bad bends, traffic congestion, and when you get to your destination you have nowhere to park. The Minister for Local Government should be pouring every available penny into the improvement of our roads a very big reduction in traffic accidents will be brought about.

There are those who do not even remember the day when the bicycle or the pony and trap was the means of transport. Consequently, it was not necessary to take the same care on a bad or blind bend as it is with a motor car or a lorry. Until those road hazards are removed the traffic accident rate, to my mind, will continue. Certainly, on our major roads the speed at which traffic travels and the hazards of the drunken driver lend to the high incidence of accident rates on those roads. It is very difficult to put old heads on young shoulders and to tell young people they must drive at only 50 or 60 miles per hour is just as difficult. Putting traffic signs of 60 miles per hour up throughout the country is a waste of the signs because they are ignored to a large extent by those who are speed crazy. When those people feel there is no guard knocking around they will put the foot down and see what the car can do.

The question of traffic signs leads me to the belief that we have a situation where there are so many signs that people do not look at them—they are ignored to a large extent. While on this subject, I suggest that the size of the international standard signs is far too small. Take the Dublin-Naas dual carriageway as a typical example. The signs changing the speed from 50 miles to 60 miles per hour, or changing it down the line, are the same size. Certainly where the change in speed is from 30 miles to 40 miles per hour there should be a much larger sign.

The question of driving instructors comes into the Bill. They are to be registered. A person apparently will not be allowed to give driving instruction for reward unless he is registered. I am afraid this will lead to some hardship in certain cases where persons learning to drive have sufficient confifidence in certain individuals and may wish to give them some monetary reward. Under the Bill they are to be regarded as breaking the law if they do so. It is a pity that has to be, but I suppose such regulations have been found necessary. In country areas particularly this will lead to a certain amount of hardship.

I have just mentioned the Dublin-Naas dual carriageway, one of our showpieces. Unfortunately, there have been some fatal accidents on it. I noticed that on nights when those accidents have been reported on television the television cameras took time to show the speed of the traffic instead of spending some of it giving instructions to people on how to use that road. There are far too many major crossings on that road, there are slip roads and what have you on either side, and unless people are living beside it they have not an idea in the world of how to use it. The TV road safety campaign could be of benefit to a lot of people if it devoted some time to instruction on how to use that road. This reminds me again of the road safety cartoon—that is all I can call it —"Christopher". I do not know whether that is intended to amuse children or to instruct. I know that when it comes on I flick off the receiver and wait until it has finished.

Hear, hear.

It lacks imagination. It is instruction people need, not amusement, in matters of such importance. I suppose that no matter how much legislation we introduce there will still be accidents. People will still be seriously injured and many killed on our roads. One of the awful features about serious accidents is that a person may lie seriously injured in hospital and, though he may be the innocent party, a garda will still parade in and serve notice on him that it is intended to prosecute. That is a heartless procedure. Some time should be allowed to elapse either until the person has recovered or until he is ready to leave the hospital. Whether some provision governing that can be incorporated in a Road Traffic Bill I do not know. If it can it should be borne in mind.

Senator FitzGerald spoke about the testing of lorry drivers and I wondered how the driver of a tractor can be tested because more often than not the tractor has only one seat. When he is being tested how can this be got over? It is a problem which faces a great many farmers who have men who they are quite satisfied are capable of operating a tractor but because they have not got driving licences they cannot be allowed out on the roads. I should like to get the Minister's view on that.

There is also the point about lorries or trucks doing damage to roads and the local authorities claiming from the owners of such vehicles. This could be a terrible hardship on business people at the present time who try to carry maximum loads on roads which were not constructed to carry such weights. If by any chance they do damage to the roads, claims can be made against them. I suggest there should be some system of indicating which roads can carry such and such weights on them. I have in mind particularly a place in my area where it was proposed to start a new industry. However, because the trucks were cutting up the road the industry was in danger of closing down, the problem being that the local authority would have to stop the lorries because of the damage to the road. This is something which has arisen and will continue to arise because roads have not been constructed to carry such weights.

On the whole, the House must welcome this Bill for the provisions in it that may help to cut down the awful toll of life and limb on our roads. If it does that to any degree at all the time spent discussing it will have been worth while.

I agree that anything we can do to reduce the number of road accidents or the seriousness of any accident is well worthwhile. My only doubts about the Bill arise from the fact, which I think is reasonably apparent, that present road legislation exists on paper very largely, a great deal of it being ignored. The speed limits, which I regard as the most essential part of any road traffic regulations, one of the most desirable in built-up areas, are a joke as far as many places are concerned, including the city. There is hardly a time one uses a main road or even side streets that half a dozen cars do not overtake. At one time I had the idea that anyone who paid £1,400 for a car believed that the road regulations did not apply to him. This idea seems to have now extended to those who believe that if a car is small enough the road regulations do not apply either.

I was shocked some time ago when the then Minister for Local Government spoke of increasing the number of police traps to see that the reaction from some motoring organisations was different from the reaction of British motoring organisations who were said to be as anxious to preserve the public from the motorist and to preserve the motorist from other motorists, as they were to preserve the motorist from the law. If this was the case it would be a great help.

With regard to the provisions of the Bill in respect of drunken driving I imagine that for a short time after the regulations coming into operation it will be dangerous to drink anything at all. When the speed limits were introduced it was dangerous to go at 31 miles an hour in a 30-mile an hour area, but I feel that as time goes on, as long as man can keep his eyes open at all he will be reasonably safe. I should like to see the existing laws enforced and it is important that they should be.

I have strong views on the matter of speed limits. To me a death from a motor accident where a speed limit is in existence is very much the same as where you move from manslaughter into murder. Anyone who is exceeding the speed limit in such instances is very much in the same place as that of a man who, because he had a licence for a shotgun, thought that he could go down O'Connell Street and shoot birds in the middle of the day regardless of the passers-by or where the shot might fall. The great advantage to motorists and pedestrians in a 30-mile limit area is that one can get to the point of being able to judge when it is safe to cross the road or to pull out from a side road on to a main road. It is almost impossible to make that judgement when the speed limit is 50 or 60 miles an hour.

It is not right that one has to be put into jeopardy because of the selfishness of others. While I am quite clear that drunken driving will cause road accidents and that a great many other things will cause road accidents as well my view is that, by and large, most trouble on the roads arises from pure, unadulterated bad manners by people who believe that because they have a licence to drive and because they own motor cars they can do what they like and ignore everybody else. Unless these people are made to realise that the public good must come first I do not see much advantage in trying to control traffic at all. If these people are so ignorant that education does nothing at all for them then the absolute rigour of the law must be applied to them.

I should like to see a great many more traffic police on the roads on motor cycles and in cars. When you cross the Border you find a police car on the roads every few miles and it is surprising how modest the drivers are in that area. But these same Northern drivers give a very bad example when they cross the Border and come down here. People who drive correctly up there and who never overtake or pass on turns, when they come down here seem to think that none of these things matter. When they go across the Border they do not know whether, when they go around a corner, the next vehicle they meet is going to be a police car. I would rather see three or four times as many police cars and motor cycles on the road than all the regulations we can make. Enforcement of the law is the best thing we can do if we are going to grapple with this problem.

I do not agree altogether with the statement that we need better roads although we must have good roads. Surely all the really bad accidents in this country have occurred on the big main straight roads where people driving cars seem to go stark staring mad. The fact that our roads are straight and good does not seem to stop them.

That is a statistical delusion.

I am not saying that the majority of accidents occur on these main roads but surely some of the worst accidents we have had have been on them.

The accidents occur on the unimproved sections of the main roads.

That might well be because people are travelling at 70 or 80 miles an hour on the good sections and do not realise that they are running into the bad sections.

The accident rate can be cut by two-thirds by improved roads.

This I very much doubt. I know that accidents still occur frequently on the good roads.

I will produce the facts to the Senator on a more appropriate occasion.

I am sure there is no more appropriate occasion than the present one. This is not the whole answer. I think there is a great deal to be said for the idea operating in some countries where they increased the speed limit but deliberately affected the surface of the roads to make it impossible to drive at very fast speeds. I should like to congratulate the Department on their idea of interposing a 40-mile an hour limit between leaving a no-limit area road and coming into a 30-mile limit and I would repeat that speed limits are only useful if the laws are enforced.

Even without this present legislation we have had repeated exhortations from the Department of Local Government to local authorities inviting them to co-operate in every way in the effort to curtail the accident rate. These exhortations have been given considerable consideration by members of local authorities. However, in the development of road works the emphasis is laid on the improvement of our arterial roads to the curtailment of work on the country roads. Many of these country roads need improvement.

It was an overall plan of the local authorities to expend a considerable amount of money, as much as they possibly could, on the elimination of dangerous bends and the improvement of road junctions. Exhortations are all very well in their own way but if you are denied the means by which to implement your good intention you feel very frustrated and it is regrettable that due to the curtailment of the road grants so many works that would eliminate areas that are accident prone cannot be undertaken in view of this restriction. Consequently, I feel it is regrettable that the proposals presented by many county engineers for the express purpose of improving the siting of junctions and the elimination of bad bends cannot be undertaken to the extent that we would wish.

I also wish, Sir, to register a complaint in relation to the extraordinary delay in implementing 30 mile limits where they have been advanced from local sources. Many voluntary organisations in their own localities have appealed through the local authorities for the implementation of 30 mile limits in villages on pretty important routes and it takes a year or one and half years before ultimate sanction is obtained to implement these 30 mile limits. I agree completely with what Senator Sheldon has said regarding the immediate 40 mile limit in the built-up areas that it makes it considerably more attractive to the motorist to go down by easier stages from the speed at which he had been driving so that he would appreciate precisely what the 30 mile limit would mean.

Practically everybody that spoke made reference to the part which the gardaí are called upon to play relative to the control of difficult drivers, whether through ignorance or maliciousness or carelessness. There is no doubt that the Garda are active in this respect, and necessarily so, but it must be frustrating for many members of the Force sometimes when they succeed—and it is difficult for them quite often to apprehend the culprit—to find the meagre sentences that are imposed for rather serious misdemeanours. I do not wish to be specific in this but there was one instance recently in the city of Cork where, if one was to rely on the report in the daily Press and I am sure it was a faithful report of the court proceedings, the sentence was appallingly light in relation to the degree of carelessness that was involved by the driver in question. It is not an encouragement certainly to the Garda to apprehend those who break the law if the rigour of the law is not applied in the sentence imposed as an example to others and to ensure that these culprits do not repeat these acts. This is true and I think, furthermore, that we have had instances where a remission of sentence was given at a higher level than the judiciary.

Surely not higher than the judiciary?

Other than the judiciary I should say. Unfortunately, this action has given rise to much discontent among the Garda in implementing the law. As public men we are all approached from time to time by people seeking to have licences restored and so on. I feel that we should set an example in the first instance by refusing in every instance to have any hand, act or part in reducing the sentence imposed by the courts and that that is the first contribution that could be made by the people in the public life of the country in this regard and that we should exhort the Minister for Justice to resist such pressures as are placed upon him to restore licences unless he is satisfied that a gross miscarriage of justice was perpetrated. We can assume, knowing our judiciary, that this would be an extraordinarily rare occurrence but it is a fact that in many instances where transgressions have occurred the sentences have been extraordinarily light. It is to be hoped that those in authority will exercise it to the fullest. Those are the only remarks I wish to make as the other points have been covered by other speakers.

(Longford): One thing we do not seem to want to admit in dealing with this question of accidents is the real cause of the accidents. People do not, and I am afraid I do not, want to believe that the real cause of the accident is speed because if we examine the question from the standpoint that if the vehicles were not in motion there would not be an accident at all.

Motion is the cause then.

(Longford): Therefore, the factor that causes the accident is speed. There may be other factors such as capacity——

(Longford):—— skill and many other things but we have never considered seriously limiting speed and we do not want to seriously limit speed. If we did all we would have to do is pass a statute law that would ensure that vehicles of certain categories would be fitted with a certain device which would control the speed. I am not foolish enough to suggest that that would be the complete answer. It would not. Even with the fitting of such devices to govern or control acceleration accidents would take place because people would try to pass without having enough room to do so. Therefore, limiting speed is not the full answer. I do not want to be taken as suggesting that governors or speed control devices should be fitted to vehicles because no study has been made of this that I am aware of and accidents, very serious accidents, and maybe a large number of accidents could take place because of the lack of capacity to accelerate. That being so, I suppose we must continue passing statute law to try to control speed and try to control behaviour and things generally in the hope of keeping down the damage on the roads.

With regard to the question of road investment, I am not satisfied that it is on the very bad bends that serious accidents take place. As far as I can see, it is on the reasonable curve that most serious accidents take place and sometimes on very straight stretches of road where there would appear to be no hazard at all. On the other hand, it appears to me from my limited experience that on very bad bends serious accidents do not take place. People seem to know of them in advance and, therefore, take due precaution.

I was rather amused by the suggestion of my friend, Senator Sheldon, regarding damaging of road surfaces. I have seen corrugated road surfaces and they have a very delimiting effect on speed. They limit speed very thoroughly, and perhaps one way to control speed, if we really are satisfied that speed is the danger factor, is to have a corrugated road surface. I am not too sure that the Minister or the county road authority or the members of the road authority in Donegal or anywhere else who would suggest having their roads corrugated would fare too well at the next ensuing county council election, but I still think that because of our public minds we are not prepared to really control speed. Perhaps, we might do too much about it. At this stage all we can do is to continue to have the type of control that we are used to.

That brings me to hope that the powers taken in this measure will have a good controlling effect. I possibly can feel with the passage of time like all other restrictions and all other regulations we have made that we get used to them and once we do get used to them they do not seem to have the same good effect that they appeared to have in the beginning. Perhaps, that may be in this case too. I hope that it will not be so but I cannot but fear that it will be so.

On the question of driving, many accidents that take place could be avoided if we had a quota of better drivers. It is my experience that you have one group of people who can drive a vehicle and another very large group, I am afraid, of people who can make a vehicle go. There is a very great difference between the two. I suppose you have a group of people in between, who can make a vehicle go at a reasonable speed, but I feel that quite a large number in this country, and, I am sure, everywhere else, are people who can make a vehicle go. I am quite satisfied that we would have far fewer accidents if, in fact, we had a larger number of people with a good deal of skill to drive with anticipation of the risks that can develop in coming into contact with people who can make a vehicle go. Every day one goes out in a motor car one sees the situation where people seem to drive without any regard for others. I think that this is due to lack of training and of understanding. Quite a large number of people appear to lack all road sense, and road signs do not have any weight for them.

As has been mentioned by Senator Cole, many people do not give proper signals. I know that a survey has been carried out and has attributed many accidents to signalling offences or mistakes in that people either do not signal properly or do not signal at all or do not signal until five or ten seconds in advance of doing the turn. In my experience a large number of people signal and act at the one time, as if the work of signalling was part of the turning operation.

Then you have a group of people who never obey their own signals, and unless you can anticipate those people, who are the worst of all, an accident can easily occur. These people signal the intention on doing one thing and do the opposite. The use of signals and the training of our people in their proper use is one matter which would be a step forward if it could be achieved.

When I am speaking with regard to driving conditions I am not referring to conditions in Dublin since I have more experience outside the city, and I will leave that aspect to people with more experience than I have to deal with. I was interested to hear Senator Malone, who contributed valuably to this debate, talking about people who might be very good drivers, possibly, of tractors. I have a good deal of sympathy with the view he expressed on that point. I am afraid that people who learn to drive in a field never make really good drivers on the road. I am speaking now with some experience, in that people do not seem to realise that they must concentrate on the front only. Many people who learn to drive a tractor and start driving a tractor on the road do not seem to realise at all that there are regulations. In certain parts of the country, in congested districts, tractors are used more on the roads than in the fields. There are reasons for that. One reason is that where you have no free draining soil or tillage soil you cannot for a large part of the year operate a tractor on the land. Hence in the congested districts many tractors are used for road haulage of a minor nature.

I am at a loss to know whether a farmer using a tractor with a trailer is entitled to have signals. I have heard that argued by people, and I am not an authority on the finer points of the traffic law, so I am not able to say if a tractor which is hauling a trailer, say with a few cattle or with churns of milk, as they say in the south, or cans of milk, as we say in the north, is entitled to have traffic signals. Again, is such a vehicle, an articulated vehicle, which it is, entitled to have stop lights and brake lights? One thing I do know is that when you have a procession of motor cars or a motorcade of one kind or another—funerals are the most common type we seem to have in Ireland—a number of the cars do not seem to have brake lights at all. This is just a percentage, and I will not go into the percentage. I will leave that to Senator G. FitzGerald, but quite a large number of vehicles are obviously not complying with the regulation. That may also go for how far our vehicles on the road are safe from the point of view of good steering and good brakes. As far as I know, we have no test or check on that. Again, how far are our heavier vehicles and lorries roadworthy, with good brakes and that sort of thing? I have some experience of seeing them and I am satisfied there are some cases where heavy vehicles are not roadworthy. While it may be bad enough to have cars which are faulty it is more serious still if you have heavy vehicles which are faulty.

There is one point I want to make in conclusion and it is the reason I rose to speak. It is the question of deceleration of certain types of vehicles coming to the 30 mile limit. There are certain types of load which I have in mind where it would be practically impossible to brake down the speed. I refer particularly to a load of cattle. I have not driven cattle but I have driven a car under slippery conditions and I am satisfied that the person who can drive well in frost or on ice is a good driver. The momentum is developed of slowly increasing and slowly dropping speed. In other words, acceleration and deceleration is a slow process and you must rely completely on brakes. If we had more people who would regard the use of a brake as the hallmark by the driver possibly we would have fewer accidents.

A person is a good driver who can drive safely in icy conditions and other bad weather conditions. It is really good driving at any time, but it is the type of driving that a good driver of a heavy vehicle should practise. I wonder if that is the type of test that the driver of a bus or a lorry is supposed to do. One thing I know—and I mentioned this before—is the case of a man prosecuted because he approached the 30 mile sector and was timed within 100 yards or so inside the sector but it happened that the man concerned was driving a load of cattle. I know if the cattle are lying it is an offence. The person with cattle down in a lorry can be prosecuted for very good reasons and properly so, but since the cattle are standing the deceleration of a lorry at any time is a very important business unless one wants to avoid injuring the cattle because they are knocked and tossed about. The same is true of horses and it is also true of driving with a greyhound in a motor car. An animal standing in a vehicle is very easily injured. The driver of a lorry with cattle must exercise more than ordinary care and some allowance should be made in the case of people who cannot drop their speed quickly enough or where they develop it very slowly. I wonder if there is anything within the regulations which provides for that.

I think it has been agreed by the Senators who have spoken that as a whole there is no great objection to this Bill, the purpose of which, indeed, has been explained and summarised, if I may say so, in excellent form in this explanatory memorandum which all of you I feel sure have read. The objects of the Bill have been clearly stated and are, indeed, understood by most people. They are to ensure a number of things in so far as that is possible, to make vehicles roadworthy or to raise the standard of roadworthiness, to improve the standard of all drivers, to control in particular the laws relating to the speed of vehicles, to amend, too, the laws relating to serious driving offences, particularly driving under the influence of a drug or drink. I feel that nobody objects to an improvement in certain standards that prevail and have prevailed for quite a number of years in this country.

The Bill properly I think is one that could be dealt with on Committee Stage. I feel sure that the Minister, when that Stage is reached, will deal with the excellent points made by those who spoke here today. Since that is so, I do not propose to detain the House. I feel sure that when it comes to discussion on that Stage of the Bill due consideration will be given to the suggestions made.

Question put and agreed to.

Wednesday next.

I think there is some Standing Order to cover this, that amendments will not have to be put down earlier than next Tuesday, Monday being a bank holiday. I am sure there is no reason why they could not be dealt with on Tuesday. I take it that that is agreed.

We will try to put them in earlier but there may be some that will be late.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 5th June, 1968.
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