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Normal View

Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 16 Jul 1968

Vol. 65 No. 14

Turf Development Bill, 1968 (Certified Money Bill): Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to give Bord na Móna temporary relief from their obligation to pay interest on State advanced capital and to defer repayments of capital to the State.

Under the Turf Development Acts, Bord na Móna are obliged to pay interest at fixed rates on advances of capital from the Minister for Finance. The board are also required to commence repayment of capital as soon as the bogs in which the capital is invested have been developed and come into production. It should be noted, therefore, that all the board's State-advanced capital is subject to a fixed annual interest and is repayable on a 25 year basis. The board has no share or equity capital. The board is required, therefore, to meet a definite financial target each year.

Since the establishment of the board, capital repayments have totalled nearly £4 million, while in the same period, interest paid on capital totalled about £8½ million. The board have met in full their obligations for interest and capital repayments in the normal way up to the payment made on 1st April, 1965. Since then, however, they have been unable to meet from normal revenues the payments due to the State and have been compelled to use capital funds for this purpose as far as they would go. A total of £2,235,000 was so used. The last remittance for interest and repayment of capital was that due and paid on 1st October, 1966. Payments totalling about £2,600,000 are still outstanding in respect of the amounts due on 1st April, 1967, 1st October, 1967, and 1st April, 1968. In the case of advances to the board from sources other than the State, the board's obligations have continued to be met in full.

Bord na Móna's difficulty is that all their production operations depend fundamentally on natural drying conditions. This is particularly so in the case of milled peat production, which is very vulnerable to adverse weather. Heavy rain can cause substantial losses. In addition, briquette production is dependent on the availability of adequate supplies of milled peat. A measure of the suitability of weather for peat harvesting is given by an index known as Poulter's Index. This is a figure derived from three of the main weather factors which affect drying—temperature, duration of sunshine and rainfall. In the period from 1880 to 1960 the index for central Ireland did not fall below average on more than four successive years. Unfortunately since 1960 there has been a deterioration. The summer of 1967 was the eighth successive summer in which the index was below average so that, since 1880, the worst peat harvesting period has been the period from 1960 to 1967.

To Bord na Móna the succession of poor peat harvesting seasons has meant men and machines lying idle and work partly done but written off because of the interruption of work schedules by bad weather. The board have been unable to meet their production targets—in the last five years, for example, the overall percentages of targets reached have been only 77 per cent, 81 per cent, 57 per cent, 75 per cent and 89 per cent respectively. The overall result has been the development of a financial situation such that, at the end of 1967-68, the board's accumulated debit balance is in the region of £5 million.

I should point out at this stage that Bord na Móna have made many efforts to counteract the effects of the unsuitable harvesting weather. In an attempt to maintain the scheduled deliveries on which the capacity of the milled peat fired generating stations was based, they increased the area of bog under production by developing tracts on the fringes of the bogs, thereby accepting a reduced annual target of 70 tons of milled peat per acre compared with the original target of 100 tons. The board have carried out experiments in the milling and harrowing of milled peat for the purpose of establishing methods which would ensure the most efficient use of available natural drying. The size of the particle milled has proved to be crucial in this context and further work is being carried out by the board to determine the optimum particle size for the climatic conditions.

The board have also carried out investigations into drainage of milled peat areas and milled peat pile compaction and protection. These investigations have led to a standard procedure for the protection of turf stock piles during the winter, involving the introduction of polythene covering for milled peat piles in an effort to defeat both high winds and heavy rains. Without this covering, losses would have been much heavier.

Finally, Bord na Móna have embarked on a new experimental method of milled peat production—the Fóidín method. This involved the designing of new machines to produce, on milled peat bogs, turf in the form of small sods which, in the process of drying, would develop a surface resistant to weather like ordinary sod turf. The small sods so produced are subsequently crushed to form milled peat. This harvesting technique has been developed to supplement normal milled peat production in poor harvesting conditions: 85,000 tons were harvested by this method in 1967 at the board's works in County Mayo and at Boora and Derrygreenagh works in County Offaly.

Of course, the Fóidín method is more expensive than direct harvesting of milled peat, but it should ensure a minimum harvest, irrespective of weather conditions. The board are pleased with the results obtained so far and this year they are extending the application of the new method to their works at Blackwater, County Offaly and Mountdillon, County Longford. All these efforts to overcome adverse weather conditions naturally increase the board's costs and are reflected in the present debit balance position.

In view of the heavy and continuing losses suffered by Bord na Móna in recent years, I think it is very necessary to have a new and searching look at the overall operations of the board. To this end, I am arranging for the appointment of a firm of consultants to examine the turf production programme, both from the engineering and financial standpoints, and to assess the likely results of future operations. I should make it clear that, over the years, Bord na Móna have themselves employed consultants on various occasions to examine and report on different facets of their operations. The new investigation will be concerned with the totality of the board's operations. When this investigation has been completed and reported on, it should be possible to decide on the most appropriate financial structure of the board for future years and so ensure the continuation of the board's activities on a sound basis and preserve employment and other benefits in areas which otherwise provide very little opportunities. The purpose of the present Bill is to afford some immediate relief to the board in their financial difficulties pending the outcome of the report.

The Bill proposes that Bord na Móna be given full or partial relief during a period of four years from 1st April, 1967, from their obligation to pay interest—now about £1.2 million a year—on State advances. In addition, the board would, if necessary, be permitted to defer all or part of the repayments of State advances—about £400,000 a year—due during the same period. The Minister for Finance would take a decision on the extent of the relief in respect of each year on examination of the board's financial position and after consultation with me. The relief would not apply to capital advanced to the board by the State for the provision of houses for their workers as it is separate from the board's main function of turf production, on which the losses have occurred, and the board would continue to make the small annual payments involved.

The relief would be given by means of orders, which may include conditions suggested by the circumstances at the time, which would be made by the Minister for Finance and laid before the Houses in the usual way. The annual accounts of the board would also bring any waiver or deferment to attention.

I think I should stress that the relief is an interim arrangement and not a final solution. As it will date for four years from 1st April, 1967, it will, in effect, cease in just over 2½ years time, March, 1971.

The relief is designed to give the board some breathing space to cover the period while the consultants are examining the situation and their report is being considered. By March, 1971, we should be in a position to assess the board's prospects on a long-term basis.

In 1965, on the occasion of the last Turf Development Bill, the House was given particulars of the projected development of the board's activities. The moss peat factory at Coolnamona near Portlaoise has since been completed and is now in production. Further development of the board's programme has, however, been somewhat disrupted by the succession of bad summers. As a consequence, the erection of an additional briquette factory has not been proceeded with. In any event, because of supply difficulties resulting from bad harvesting weather and also, perhaps, because of the fall in popularity of solid fuel generally, demand for peat briquettes has not increased as much as was expected. It is necessary, therefore, to make a careful re-examination of the prospects for sales of peat briquettes before substantial capital investment is made in a new briquette factory. This is one of the matters that, I hope, will be reported upon by the consultants.

Now, despite the setback which is the reason for the submission of this Bill to the House, there is ample evidence of the success which has attended the endeavours of Bord na Móna in carrying out the duties assigned to them in 1946. They have now about 100,000 acres of bog in production, and they pay over £4 million a year in wages to 7,000 workers, of whom over 4,000 are permanent employees. Their contribution to the national fuel requirements, both for direct consumption and for electricity generation, is substantial. The board naturally expected to have bad years among the good years, but the recent succession of bad years has involved them in losses which demand that there be a thorough examination of their prospects.

In the meantime, it is essential that the board be afforded some provisional financial relief. I hope that the recommendations of the consultants, coupled with the measures already taken by the board, will provide a basis for the avoidance of losses in the future and enable the board to meet their financial obligations.

I recommend the Bill to the House.

It is a little too much for the Minister to attribute all the defects and bad luck of Bord na Móna to adverse weather conditions. Perhaps if he were the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, he might have stronger reason for making that case. I cannot accept that the Board's present financial position is entirely due to the weather conditions over the past few years. The management of Bord na Móna certainly must accept some responsibility for the sorry figures presented to us today.

The Minister mentioned the position in regard to peat briquettes and the unstable position of the market for this very desirable type of fuel. I should like to remind him that last autumn there were many complaints about the distribution of peat briquettes and their availability to some retailers. It was suggested to me that there was some type of ring in operation which certainly acted against some legitimate distributors who had been in the trade for many years.

We also found that, while Bord na Móna saw fit to embark on a very expensive and widescale campaign of advertising briquettes and turf generally, they then increased the price of briquettes and when the demand for baled briquettes slumped in favour of loose briquettes, which were available at a cheaper rate, there was the ludicrous situation of the management of Bord na Móna employing men in cutting the baled briquettes into the cheaper form of loose briquettes. It would have been a much better form of advertising, if Bord na Móna were really sincere in pushing their product, for them to have given a special bonus, as many selling organisations now do, in respect of the sale of baled briquettes over short periods of a fortnight or month at the price prevailing for loose briquettes. In that way they would at least have saved themselves the cost of breaking down the bales.

When there are such madcap ideas on the part of management in a large-scale organisation such as Bord na Móna, it is no wonder that they find themselves with problems.

In his Second Reading speech in Dáil Éireann—I seem to have missed it in his speech to the Seanad this evening—— the Minister said that the Board had met all their commitments other than to the State. I should like to challenge that statement. I know there are small farmers and landowners who have been waiting for five and six years for payment for land which was compulsorily acquired. Only this morning I met a man to whom the Board owed approximately £800 for nine acres compulsorily acquired from him at Coolnamona in Portlaoise. If the Minister will give me an undertaking here that Bord na Móna, on the passage of this Bill, will be in a position to pay these farmers and landowners the moneys legally and rightfully due to them, I shall welcome its passage. If, on the other hand, this large semi-State organisation are going to step in line with the Government and treat the Irish farmer as a second-class citizen, I would almost feel that I should vote against it. However, I do not think I will do that because, in the midlands in particular, Bord na Móna give reasonably good employment to quite a large number of people. While some of the personnel find the red tape attached to working for this organisation quite frustrating, nevertheless, the Board employ many thousands of workers and it is always to be hoped that management will catch on and will give the workers that ray of hope that many of them would like to see.

I should like briefly to mention the fact that some years ago on another debate I mentioned that in the Blackwater bog district of west Offaly the operations of the Board cause pollution of the low-lying grassland. Time and time again the unfortunate landowners, who must pay high annual rates, find that the land is rendered completely useless as a result of pollution and the silting which occurs in the drains coming from the Blackwater bog. This, surely, is the responsibility of Bord na Móna. This is a very large semi-State organisation and they must face their responsibilities and must not allow their operations to endanger the livelihood of small farmers in their vicinity.

I should like to ask the Minister if he can give us some idea of the expected life of the bogs which are at present either developed or in course of development. I recall reading some weeks ago of some rather stiff criticism of the operations of the people who are dealing with the reclamation of cutaway bogs and I should like to ask the Minister if, in his opinion, there is sufficient co-operation between Bord na Móna, An Foras Talúntais, the Irish Sugar Company and the Department of Agriculture in this regard. It is, of course, to be hoped that there is not duplication of effort in the sphere of reclamation of cutaway bogs.

I have often wondered whether it is good policy, taking the long-term national view, to export so much peat moss to other countries, when it is possible that we could succeed in improving areas in the midlands, especially where we have heavy clay loams. Could we not perhaps introduce a scheme similar to the lime scheme whereby moss peat could be distributed on these heavy clay loams, rendering the land there more suitable for agricultural purposes, especially grazing?

I am sure An Foras Talúntais might have something to say on that, but, to my knowledge, they have not attempted it on any of their farms. On a casual visit to Waterford recently, I noted the large quantities of moss peat being exported from there and considered that it would be a pity, after 20 years, to be left here with large tracts of brown barren desert while at the same time making our competitors in a united Europe much more competitive in fruit and vegetable growing.

I hope the Minister will be able to give me an assurance that the farmers who have been made to give over their lands to Bord na Móna for their various operations will be paid when this Bill has been passed. So far the Board have been indolent on this score and I look forward to the Minister giving a specific undertaking that these people will not have to wait any longer, and furthermore that the Board will pay compound interest on the price during the years since the sales were made.

I wish to say a final word or two on the type of consultants it is envisaged to employ in regard to the new thinking on Bord na Móna. Perhaps the Minister will be good enough to give us some idea of who they will be. I understood that Bord na Móna were the leading experts in the world on peat production. I read in one of the provincial newspapers a few weeks ago, when the Russian delegates were over here, an article to that effect. Are we to find now that we are still the leading lights in the world in peat production and if not, whom do we consult when we are in the red?

Will these consultants advise on the type of machinery or will they be consultants on management, on distribution, on labour? I know that in Bord na Móna there are many excellent hard-working people who could be employed to continue the work they have been doing to which is attributable any success the Board have had. Would they consider the introduction of a suggestion box for improvements on the lines of those installed by many factories on matters of day-to-day running? We know that everything is not right within Bord na Móna and let us hope, now that we accept the position as it is and agree to accommodate the Board as far as interest and repayments are concerned, that we shall ensure that their operations will continue to be successful during the coming year.

We of the Labour Party welcome this Bill, which aims at giving Bord na Móna temporary and much needed financial relief, though considerably less than is given by the Minister to some other semi-State bodies under the aegis of his Department. I can say, however, that an earlier introduction of this Bill would have been even more welcome: its belated appearance has not improved the financial situation of the concern. So far as I follow the situation, the Board have been able to meet their obligations to the State up to 1st April, 1965, in face of the fact that in the 1960-67 period, their operations were severely handicapped by abnormally bad weather conditions.

That the Board had been forced by production losses to use capital money to pay interest was something which could not continue and indicated that the time had come when the Minister would have to take action. We believe this Bill meets the situation to a large degree and that it will give the Board the necessary breathing space. However, doubt arises on the four-year term which seems somewhat short to rectify such a heavy loss. Though it is accepted that bad weather is responsible to a great degree for the present position in Bord na Móna, it is known that a large portion of the deficit has been caused by the sale of peat to the ESB below cost of production.

This situation was one of the causes of labour trouble in Bord na Móna where we had the situation that the Bord na Móna employees were paid considerably lower wages than the ESB employees who were doing exactly the same work. Could the ESB not have paid the full cost of the peat or could they not have shared jointly the loss suffered by Bord na Móna in supplying the peat at under cost of production? This would have seemed a reasonable arrangement between two semi-State bodies. However, in the four years ended 31st March, 1967, Bord na Móna sold peat to the ESB at £2,378,000 below the cost of production. In 1966-67 the loss on peat supplied to the ESB was more than £1,270,000 and in the previous year, it was £1,140,000. It would appear that Bord na Móna sold peat to the ESB at 21/9 per ton below the cost of production in 1967-68.

It is not to be wondered at that in their last published report, dated 31st March, 1967, Bord na Móna stated:

There is no prospect that the deficit which has accumulated over a number of years can be made good out of future profits.

Why should the Board have to face this situation alone? Why could not the ESB carry their share of the burden? Perhaps the Minister could explain the reason to me because I cannot see why two semi-State bodies, working together, should not aid each other in meeting difficulties of this nature.

We have all heard of the reluctance, on the ground of cost, in certain quarters in the ESB to use peat for generating electricity. These officials would favour the use of peat only when peat production is necessary and then only at cut price. Those who would favour the discontinuance of the use of peat for electricity production might be reminded of the employment content of Bord na Móna and the situation which would follow if its activities were curtailed or ended. The effect of the resulting bill for unemployment benefit on the national economy might give them food for thought.

It has been announced recently that two Ministers have appointed boards of inquiry into the affairs of Bord na Móna. The Minister for Labour has appointed a body:

to identify the causes of strikes in Bord na Móna in 1967 and 1968 and to indicate any factors which hindered earlier settlement of the disputes.

The Minister for Transport and Power has announced the appointment of a firm of consultants to examine and report on the financial and engineering aspects of the Board's operations. It has been public knowledge for nearly two years that Bord na Móna have been drawing on capital funds in order to make interest payments. I cannot help thinking that, had the Minister acted earlier, these possibly very expensive inquiries would not have been necessary.

As a general rule, employers make strenuous efforts to avert major trade disputes. Newspaper and other reports reveal that in the two weeks before the commencement of the six weeks strike in Bord na Móna in February last, no effort at all was made by the directors of the Board to negotiate a settlement. At that time the Board and the Minister would have known that the accumulated deficit was of the order of £5 million; yet there were no signs of financial relief being forthcoming. One could be forgiven for thinking that the inaction of the Board in such a serious situation was a desperate effort on their part to force the Minister to take the remedial action he has now taken.

In this connection, I would urge the Minister to appoint one of the members of the board of directors of Bord na Móna as a labour relations director, who would have the responsibility of meeting the trade unions at the conference table. The absence of such an officer could, in all probability, be one of the major causes of the recent strikes in Bord na Móna. To get maximum production in any industry, there must be a reasonable feeling of security among the workers; but much dissatisfaction exists among Bord na Móna employees not alone because of low wage rates but because of their unsatisfactory pension scheme. The Minister will know that the superannuation scheme of 1963 is unsatisfactory because the Board are not permitted to pay more than 50 per cent of the superannuation benefits. Some of these pensions are as low as a few shillings per week because of this restriction. There is no fifty-fifty condition in the Civil Service or Local Government Superannuation Acts. Perhaps, in order to build up a better atmosphere, the Minister might consider a minor amendment of the Turf Development Act of 1953 in order to permit of the payment of reasonable pensions to Bord na Móna employees?

I would again say that this Bill is welcomed, but we would have welcomed it more warmly had it come before us much earlier.

This Bill comes as no great shock to any of us who have been reading the papers and following the fortunes of Bord na Móna. There is a certain parallel between their difficulties and those of CIE over the last decade in regard to problems of modernisation and the provision of capital and other charges involved. We have to look at this realistically. We have committed the nation since the foundation of Bord na Móna, and rightly so, to a great capital expenditure in developing a resource we have—our turf. There can be quarrel with that. But we have got to look at it realistically for the future.

On the one hand, we have a national asset that is producing and is providing employment for 4,000 people. On the other hand, we are dealing with a commodity, turf, that is gradually being beaten in the race to provide fuel for electricity generation. Therefore, we have, first of all, to look at the short-term effects. I do not think these should frighten any of us. The figures as given show £4 million in wages and a gross of somewhere around £6 million in production. Therefore, if we take one of the choices that might appear open to us in theory, that is to close down the whole enterprise, we can reckon the cost of that course, since the turf used for electricity generation could be replaced by oil. But that would mean a reduction in our national production of £6 million that would have to be replaced by the necessary additional oil imports.

Senator Miss Davidson posed the question of why the ESB cannot pay more of the losses of Bord na Móna. The simple answer to that is that, according to the ESB accounting, electricity generated from turf is the most expensive form of electricity generation. Consequently, to increase the price of turf to the ESB, which at present is over-priced nationally for electricity generation, would only mean passing on the loss to the electricity consumer, which of course means to the nation as a whole. So that is no solution. It does not get down to the kernel of the problem.

Let us say for the moment theoretically that we might be able to close down the enterprise and replace turf for electricity generation by imported oil. The national output would then go down by £6 million. Taking account of the multiplying effect, this £6 million would be equivalent to about £10 million reduction in the national income figure. When this is taken into account in the national income figure the tax loss to the country, on the basis that the Exchequer gets back on average about 25 per cent of the gross national income, that is, 25 per cent of £10 million, or about £2.5 million. Accordingly, were we to close down Bord na Móna and substitute oil for turf, the tax yield would probably go down by about £2.5 million. Therefore, if the Minister uses some of that money to keep the enterprise going and flourishing, it is a good bargain.

We must also look at the employment side of the picture. This involves 4,000 permanent men and 3,000 temporary, or the equivalent of 5,000 or 6,000 jobs. We can estimate what it would cost to face up to the national commitment of re-employing those people if made redundant. One might estimate £3,000 per person and that amounts to £15 or £20 million in capital. Capital is not the only limiting factor in that regard. There is also the question of thinking up enterprises that are likely to succeed and provide employment for those people in their present areas.

There is no question then but that the Government must face up to the challenge of keeping Bord na Móna going and giving it a fair measure of financial assistance. Certainly if the writing-off of the capital involved to date were to achieve that effectively, involving the relief of the £1.2 million interest and the £400,000 capital repayments—about £2 million—it would be quite worthwhile for the Government to take this course.

Bord na Móna is largely a rural industry which makes it doubly valuable because the money is being spent in regions where industries are scarce and where the likelihood of attracting substitute industries is not very great. Consequently, the Board is playing a very useful social role. We can see the great stimulus it has given to life in these regions. That must be kept going. On all counts we are committed to keeping it going.

That is not sufficient. We must do it in the short-term, with the realisation that the long-term prospects are not great because nuclear power is a major factor today. In the US in 1966 for the first time the cost of producing electricity from nuclear fuel became less than that of producing it from conventional thermal fuels. The result is shown in the fact that in 1967, 90 per cent of the applications for permission to build power stations in the US were conventional types using thermal fuel and only ten per cent stations using nuclear power, while this year the position has reversed and the applications are now running 90 per cent for nuclear power and only ten per cent for conventional fuel. The change-over has taken place, perhaps, a little later than some of us foresaw in the early 50s but that was because the thermal fuels met the challenge from nuclear power at that time by highly successful research. A remarkable increase in efficiency was achieved by using high pressure jets thereby gaining a temporary respite from the nuclear challenge.

That challenge is with us today and we must accept that in ten years time, requirements for additional power stations will have to be met mainly by nuclear stations. We need have no worry about this because we are ideally placed for nuclear power generation which requires a plentiful supply of cooling water and siting of regions remote from centres of population. There is no doubt that we have many excellent sites available. We might go further: not alone can we generate such power for our own use but we can export it directly to Britain and into the European network using modern direct current linkage. Consequently I urge that we must face the fact that turf, already outpriced for the generation of electricity, will be much more outpriced in ten years time. Consequently for the sake of the future of the 4,000 employed in Bord na Móna and the regions that depend so much on them, we must immediately get down to long-term planning under, I suggest, two heads. First, as regards the dependent regions a great deal of research is required into the uses that can be made of natural products available in those regions, with the emphasis shifting from electricity generation as the major use of turf, over to peat moss and its use in flower pots and other developments. These may appear small but they can be developed considerably. Turf can be put to many other uses but it will take a great deal of research to move into profitable new fields of use. In that research, in that common endeavour, where we are all anxious to help the employees of Bord na Móna to hold on to their jobs, the employees themselves must contribute a great deal. I suggest to the Minister that the industry might be used as a pilot for real partnership work. The future of these employees is at stake and it is therefore up to them to cooperate to the greatest possible extent with the State, and with research organisations and study groups to save their industry and their livelihood.

In putting additional State capital at the disposal of Bord na Móna or writing-off a certain amount of existing capital or in giving modernisation or capital grants, I suggest that the Minister should explore the possibilities of making it easy for the employees, whether at the top level of technical management or at the lower levels, to acquire shares in the reorganised body so that they can then face the real challenge of survival. This will call for a great diversification of activities, not merely those associated with turf. The local Bord na Móna offices will have to become development centres for other industries which they must get into those regions, and which may mean the transfer of some employees on a planned basis over the next ten or 15 years from their present occupation to positions in new factories and new industries which I envisage a reorganised Bord na Móna developing in these areas.

We must face the fact that the major activity as it is today, the production of milled peat, cannot survive the challenge of nuclear power after ten to 15 years, but if we take steps in time, I have every confidence that not alone will the employment in those centres grow but also its quality will grow, because it will have to become more scientifically based, more dependent on research, seeking out newer and more scientific uses for turf as a raw material and also developing many associated industries.

I do not think any contribution on this Bill would be complete without paying high compliment to the technical staff of Bord na Móna. Their research approach to the work, their development of new equipment, and their adaptation of outside equipment, has won deserved recognition in many parts of the world. They have a high-class technical staff and that high-class staff who have made their homes in those rural areas can become the development corporations for those centres. Perhaps also some of the engineering staff there, when they become redundant in the turf area, or even before that, could be assigned to the investigation of nuclear power and its potential.

The ESB have a study group on this, but much more action is required. It is time the Government stepped into this inquiry and this development on a basis much larger than that of the ESB. We cannot turn back the clock. We have no choice in this matter, but as I have shown, we have nothing to fear from the advent of nuclear power, with all the natural advantages we have for its generation. Indeed, in some of our remote areas—I am thinking particularly of parts of Connaught— the ability to generate vast quantities of power could result in the development in those areas of industries requiring a tremendous amount of power, like, for instance, the aluminium industry in the United States which is developing in rather unexpected areas, where the main requirement has been the availability of adequate power.

I welcome the Bill, and I think that the employees in Bord na Móna, both technical and others, should know we are all anxious and ready to do everything we can to ensure that not only do we overcome the short-term difficulties—which are no real problem— but that we make the long-term adjustment to the nuclear age and that we preserve and strengthen those centres, both by diversification and research.

We support this Bill, even though we regret the circumstances which have made it necessary. The Minister has explained that for some 80 years up to 1960 the index for measuring the combination of temperatures, drying conditions and rainfall did not fall below the average for more than four successive years. Indeed we have had eight successive years below the average, and we do not know what 1968 may produce. I feel for the Minister because the weather is bad not only for his responsibilities in regard to Bord na Móna but also for those connected with our tourist industry. We can only hope that a change of Government will bring with it a change in weather.

I am interested in the question of bringing in consultants. I think somebody muttered under his breath: "We should invite the Russians in to advise us, seeing we have already advised the Russians on the development of our bogs." I do not know about that, but I am told that when some Russians were looking at our Bord na Móna operations and its tie-up with the ESB, they asked: "Why Bord na Móna and the ESB? Why not simply one publicly-owned undertaking to do the job?" I do not know if this is a solution to the problem, but no doubt the consultants will consider this and have regard to the desirability of such a development in the report.

What I want to deal with specially has been touched upon somewhat by Senator Quinlan, that is, the fact that here we have a publicly-owned undertaking providing a fair amount of employment, particularly valuable in the areas in which that employment is provided, and it is a relatively new industry. I would ask the Minister to consider the possibility and the desirability of experimenting in the introduction of industrial democracy into this undertaking. Senator Miss Davidson has referred to the number of strikes. I do not want to comment upon that. I have my own views, maybe, upon it, but it is unfortunate that these strikes have taken place. I suppose it is no harm to repeat what I have said so many times before, that the people who lose most and suffer most in strikes are the workers themselves. I think it is also fair to comment that in Bord na Móna we have had—maybe some of the trade unions would not necessarily agree with me—progressive management, forward-looking, outward-looking management.

We hear a great lot of talk about industrial democracy. It has suddenly become popular and respectable since the time of Pope John. It is no harm to underline the fact that industrial democracy or, more correctly, self-management, is not something like a wage increase, or an improvement in conditions of service. In fact, of course, it is the putting of responsibility on the people actually working in the organisation. It is perhaps, in many cases, much easier to blame the boss than to accept a share of responsibility. It is time we started experimenting and moving forward even tentatively in this direction, not that it will necessarily solve all our industrial relations problems. That is not the point at all, but it is desirable to develop this in the interests of the workers as human beings. I do not imagine that if the workers should suddenly face up to the actualities of self-management, they would think it a great idea if they had to take on responsibility, but I do feel that, particularly with better educated people leaving the schools and coming into industry, it would be for their own good and the good of us all if more responsibility were placed on people in their work places. It would be better for them as human beings. It would enable them to develop much better and that, in itself, is desirable as we are all human beings.

What I am saying is that here perhaps we have an opportunity. The Minister is inviting consultants to look at the whole operations of Bord na Móna and make recommendations. If we are making a new start in regard to Bord na Móna—and I am not saying anything about the workers or about Bord na Móna—this may be a new opportunity at least to start thinking about the problem, to have some experiments, and see how they work out. It involves a lot of education for the people concerned. I think the Minister might be progressive enough to throw out this idea and see if there is a possibility of making a start in this direction.

I want to make one final point in regard to the export of peat moss. Senator McDonald raised this in a rather complaining tone of voice. I think he will agree that Bord na Móna are to be complimented on the development of this export market. I was in Geneva recently at the ILO, and I saw them putting peat moss into the beds there. I regret I cannot say it came from Bord na Móna: I think it came from Denmark. There is this export field for Bord na Móna. I think what Senator McDonald was saying— and I should like to support him in this—was that there is room for encouraging greater use of peat moss by our farmers in certain soil conditions. If that is so, it would be as sensible to subsidise its use as it is sensible to subsidise the use of lime and fertilisers. I am not an expert on this matter. I know peat moss is supposed to be good for gardens and for fruit growing, but how effective or helpful it is in pasturage, I do not know. Perhaps it could be used, and if it could it would seem desirable in the national interest that it should be used and subsidised the same as is the use of lime and fertilisers, and it would open up a further market for this native industry.

(Longford): We all regret that a situation has arisen which necessitates the introduction of a Bill to deal with the financial structure of Bord na Móna. So far the debate has been constructive and any criticisms made were minor. I agree that every effort possible should be made to continue to operate Bord na Móna as a viable concern. It appears it will be a hard thing to do, in view of the statement made by Senator Quinlan that the generation of electricity could be more economic by the use of nuclear fuel than conventional fuel. I take it that he had in mind the carbohydrates as he was dealing with the situation in America. In our desire to continue Bord na Móna operating as a viable concern, we are dealing with a social problem as well as an economic problem, because the operations and undertakings of Bord na Móna are situated in areas where there is contract employment, and it is more necessary to continue employment in those areas than it would be, possibly, in areas where there is a more affluent society.

I was rather alarmed to hear—and I accept Senator Quinlan's word—that a situation has arisen in which electricity can be generated more economically, or as economically, from nuclear fuel, that this was a challenge to the people in the carbohydrate fuel areas, and that they overcame some of the difficulties, temporarily at any rate. If that is so—and I take it it is so, because I accept the statement quite fully—it would indicate that Bord na Móna, the Government, and all of us as a society, have a duty to study the ways and means by which Bord na Móna can be made more efficient.

It is easy to say Bord na Móna started in 1946, and that a number of bad years, from their point of view, was the cause of the financial straitjacket. We must remember at the same time that before Bord na Móna was established as such, a great estate had been built up rather in a hurry under the name of the Turf Development Board. Bord na Móna inherited that estate. Because it was hurried, the build-up perhaps was not as well planned as it might have been. That build-up took place from 1940 to 1946.

Many things could be done better I feel, if they had to be done again. Housing conditions, working conditions, and many such difficulties could have been overcome much more quickly were it not for the conditions that prevailed during that war period. It is only proper that we should pay tribute to the people who built up that industry at a time when a great challenge to our very existence occurred. Were it not for that, our ability to remain neutral during a war period might not have been as secure as it turned out to be.

However, there is no use in referring at any length to past history: it is the future that counts. I agree that more research should be made into the undertaking with a view to better planning and to making it more economic. That would also indicate to me that research should be made into the human side. I cannot but feel, having heard others, having read newspapers and this and that, that some of the difficulty that arose by way of strike could have been avoided if people were talking to one another rather than talking at one another.

A strike can sometimes be caused when there is a genuine grievance. A strike can be caused by professional agitators—the bulk of the men not understanding. Again, a strike can be caused because of an attitude adopted by management. My view is, particularly in relation to Bord na Móna, that if there had been better understanding and—to use a word I do not like to use although it is very often used—dialogue between the executives of the Board and the workers there would have been better labour relations. When a situation appears to exist—as to me, one does exist—the fault is not all on one side. I am not prepared to agree that the fault for the strike in February or March last lay with the workers but neither am I prepared to agree that it lay with management: it was due to a common lack of understanding. That is the sort of thing that could be avoided. Failure by Bord na Móna to be in operation during a critical period of the year is bound to make its whole operation for that year uneconomic. While it may be possible to indicate, from weather statistics, that the greater part of the trouble is due to weather conditions only, I think the greater part of it would be avoided with improved management-labour relations.

The Minister mentioned a move away from milled peat as probably not as economic but as a safer method. When there was no better way, we had sod peat briquette production. Then we had milled peat. Now it would appear that the small sod system is a better system. I hope that that is so. I do not intend to express an opinion. However, if the small sod system can be more successful, I am wondering how far it would be more successful economically for the Board in their effort to sell fuel to the ordinary housewife. There are transport and packing difficulties, and so on. I should like to hear if any research has been made by the Board into that aspect. In the long run, there is this difference between ESB and Bord na Móna.

I should like to see Bord na Móna continue as a viable concern. I know quite well that all the other Senators who have spoken have the same outlook. I should like to know if that sort of research is being carried out. I seldom go into this area: I leave it to the university people to deal with the question of research. However, it appears to me that there are too many people dealing with this matter. University undertakings seem to think that, apart from their teaching obligations, they have a duty to undertake search and research. Possibly that is so. Many authorities are saddled with responsibility for research. In my opinion, there is no co-ordination in this whole field of research. We have Foras Tionscal, the Department of Agriculture, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards: they are the few that have occurred to me. It is my opinion that there is not the co-ordination or the co-operation and, without that co-ordination and co-operation, no research will be complete and exhaustive.

Now, if we expect Bord na Móna, with limited resources, to carry out research, we might find that that research was not complete and exhaustive, that it would not be equipped to do that. Perhaps we can hear from the Minister that independent research officers—financial, social and economic —will deal with this matter in the hope of continuing Bord na Móna as a viable concern or, at any rate, as a concern as viable as it is possible, practically, to make it in view of the social obligations of Bord na Móna to this country. I trust nobody would argue that Bord na Móna should close down simply because it is showing that, in a long-term way, it cannot operate as a viable concern. I trust that that would be the view of the majority of Senators. I think it is certain that it would.

There was one criticism from Senator McDonald about the case of a person from Laois-Offaly in relation to land acquisition. I do not know anything about the case but I have this experience. In public life, people will complain to one about land acquired by the Land Commission and they will claim that, even after a long time, they were not paid. However, in any case I investigated à propos the Land Commission, I found that the failure was not by the Land Commission but by the person from whom the land was acquired or not so much the person himself as his agent. Very often, a person employs somebody to do a certain type of work which that person does not do. For instance, he did not send in papers or he did not produce a document which it was necessary to produce. When, as a public representative, I had to go to the Land Commission or get after the Land Commission in any case of that nature I found—in the few little cases—it was not the fault of the Land Commission. Maybe I am wrong, but I am inclined to suggest——

Of course you are wrong.

(Longford):——that, if that particular case is investigated, the same answer will emerge.

There is more than one. They cannot all be wrong.

I am sorry the Minister did not introduce the Bill last year because, since its introduction, the people working in Bord na Móna, from engineers down to the unskilled worker, realise they had no idea of the position of Bord na Móna. If the Bill had been published earlier, we might have avoided the disastrous strike we had during the spring. I come from an area in which nearly everybody works for Bord na Móna. There are 100 houses there which are occupied by Bord na Móna workers. I have a fair idea of the hardships they suffered by reason of that strike. Some people stayed out in sympathy while others were locked out. These were the people who had no income whatsoever during the period of the strike. I can assure the Minister that they did undergo severe hardship during that period.

For that reason, I would like to say that communications between men and management appear to be very bad. If communications were better, the strike might never have taken place or it could have been settled in a much shorter time when it did take place. It dragged on week after week and there were men in Bord na Móna who thought that they would put out the lights throughout the country but they did not even put out a 40-watt lamp throughout the period. The ESB told people to be careful about using power and lights, but in reality I do not think anybody was upset in any way by the fact that Bord na Móna were not supplying fuel to the ESB.

The ESB were in the happy position that they could turn to oil or coal and were able to obtain their requirements. The men who were under the impression that they would embarrass the Government were under a misapprehension. I am not surprised that it was necessary to introduce this Bill because we see that capital repayments since the establishment of Bord na Móna were £4 million, while in the same period the interest paid was £8½ million. No firm could stand on its feet and pay £8½ million in interest over that period and, at the same time, pay £4 million in capital repayments.

Since 1st April, 1965, the Minister was aware that the position of Bord na Móna had become rather hopeless and that they could not meet their obligations. He allowed something worse to happen by taking £2¼ million from their capital fund which did not help the Board and certainly curtailed development of all kinds. We know that the Board depend to a great extent on weather and it was rather interesting to learn that from 1960 to 1967 we had the worst seven years since 1880. I am glad to tell the Minister that this year we have had an exceptional run. Good weather in June enabled the Board to attain their targets for this year in many places. If we have an average autumn, they will reach their full targets, which would be very satisfactory.

In last year's Bord na Móna report, the figures showed that there had been a substantial profit, and when the workers saw this it was natural that they should apply for a share of the profits which were made during that year. That in itself brought about the trouble in the spring. The workers did not know that the Board were in the red to the extent of £5 million. If that had been explained to them, if this Bill had been introduced earlier, we would have avoided trouble. A strike in a rural area is a disaster: it hurts too many people and it is something that should be avoided. As I said, communications should be better between workers and management and the workers should know about the financial position of Bord na Móna and be kept informed of any improvement or deterioration in the situation that might develop.

The Board have certainly done their part in regard to trying to protect the milled peat by using polythene. The use of polythene has enabled them to keep peat dry for the ESB during the winter and during periods of frost. Before they used polythene, it was almost impossible for anyone to live within a radius of six miles of a bog because during a storm, even with windows closed and keyholes sealed, houses were still covered with milled peat. We have not had that nuisance since the polythene was used and I should like to compliment the Board on deciding to use it to such an extent.

A number of workers to whom I have been speaking are of the opinion that the Fóidín method could never be a success. Perhaps the Board have experimented over too wide an area and invested too much money in machines, but I would not say that the method has been a success. It probably takes too long to harvest the crop. Recently the Minister made a statement which was published in the daily newspapers, and which he repeated here today, a statement which I regard as a grave warning to people in Bord na Móna. He said that it is necessary to have a new and searching look at the overall operations of the Board and he intends to appoint consultants to examine turf production. If these consultants do not come back with a remedy, if they report that turf production will never be an economic proposition, what does the Minister think he will do? What recommendation will he make? Will he reduce the number of bogs being used to a minimum, and only leave open the ones that might pay, or will he leave the matter as it stands and continue to subsidise Bord na Móna?

I hope that when the consultants issue their report, we will find it will be favourable because so many people in rural areas depend on Bord na Móna for their livelihood that it would be impossible to place them all in other employment.

The Minister is hoping the Board will be in a position to take up their liabilities after a period of, I think, 2½ years. I hope he is not being too optimistic in that. I can see the day when the Minister will come in here with a similar measure to allow Bord na Móna off. If I had my way, I should much prefer to see the Minister cross off the whole amount due, thereby giving the Board an opportunity to get off on a new footing, without looking forward to the day when they will have to come back and meet their liabilities. The biggest worry they will have, if they have to come back to meet their liabilities, will be the payment of interest, not the repayment of capital.

We are glad, of course, that the Board has got a breathing space and we hope they will be lucky with the weather because all the operations of the Board depend on the weather. If the weather is good, it is only natural to expect that they will continue to make some profits during the period they have for, as it were, drawing breath.

The Minister is disappointed with the sale of briquettes. I am not a bit surprised at that. The fuel is an excellent fuel but most of the cookers in the country are not suitable for the burning of peat briquettes; neither are the open fires. On a winter's night one would want two bales of briquettes to keep a fire going. In an ordinary standard range, one would want two to three bales of briquettes a day.

(Longford): Would the small sod be the answer?

The Fóidín: I said that was out. If briquettes are to be a success in cookers, people will have to change the type of cooker. Briquettes are bought in small quantities to help light fires or get fires going. They are clean fuel, but they are too expensive. I think most of the problem would be solved for Bord na Móna if the ESB paid an economic price for milled peat. I am told the price paid is not economic. If that is the case, then the Minister should do something to ensure that Bord na Móna gets an economic price for its fuel. We welcome the Bill and we trust that in a couple of years time we will be looking at a brighter picture.

I should like to make a few comments on this very important subject. In the first place, the whole concept of peat production is based on two main requirements. The first is the production of fuel and the second is the giving of employment. From that point of view, everybody in this House must support this measure. At the same time, one must learn by the mistakes that have been made, if mistakes have been made. If mistakes have not been made, well and good.

I cannot accept the idea of charging a higher price to the ESB as any solution at all because, if a higher price is charged to the ESB, that higher price will ultimately be passed on to the electricity consumer and the net result will be that one will pay one way or the other. I am particularly interested in the appointment of consultants. I think there have been too many changes in the method of turf production. Somebody is to blame for that. Steps have been taken too quickly, without those responsible being absolutely satisfied that the result desired would be achieved. Somebody is to blame. I know that there are some of the best brains and some of the best engineers in the country in Bord na Móna. Knowing that, I cannot understand why or how they could allow themselves to be influenced into changing from one method of production to another. All the changes have resulted in very serious loss to the country.

I remember the early days when people like Professor Pearse Purcell, the late Ned Duffy of Meath and others were on the Turf Development Board. They were men of the highest intelligence and of the highest integrity. Bord na Móna was established after the Second World War. In the beginning, excellent fuel was turned out by macerating the entire face of the bog and turning out fuel which was spread out over 100 feet. The sod was very irregular in shape but never since have they produced a better fuel. It was an excellent fuel. Experiments were then carried out in connection with milled peat. Some of these were carried out in my own county, just north of Bangor Erris. In a good year, I was told it would be possible to turn out five, and probably six, crops of milled peat in the year from one surface. I wonder how did results, even during the best of those five bad years, compare with that prognosis. The particular bog was well drained. It was blanket bog as distinct from the deep bog in the midlands. Possibly conditions were quite favourable. I know that that particular summer was very fine. I could never understand how they arrived at an estimate of five to six crops in the year.

When we were producing turf during the emergency period, we had a very limited period in which to produce sod turf. There was absolutely no hope of cutting and saving turf after 1st July and very little turf was produced until after the frosts of May. You were left then with the end of May, the months of June and July for cutting turf. Very little was cut in May. In very favourable bog conditions, we succeeded at that time in turning out two crops of sod turf, the second of which was harvested in that year in very few cases. To say that it would be possible to turn out five and, possibly, six crops in the year seemed to me to be very optimistic indeed. I wonder how that prognosis turned out.

Suddenly, then, we sold off a great number of small machines which were used for producing sod turf. The future of milled peat seemed to be so good that machines were bought and, as far as I can understand — the Minister will correct me in this, if I am wrong, and I hope I am wrong—some of these machines were never even unpacked. They were sold. They were offered to county councils. Some were offered to my county and some were sold in the cases without ever having being opened or used. That changing about has resulted in mistakes and losses. I should like to know who have been responsible.

I should like to suggest to the Minister that my experience has been that too much travelling abroad, too much seeing what they did in Russia and Poland in conditions which were not comparable with the conditions in our own country, has resulted in loss in production. If we have to have consultants set up. I hope they will be consultants from this country, consultants who will know something about the subject under investigation. I sincerely hope that when their findings are ultimately tabled in both Houses, we will decide then and there to go on from that, not to lose the capital that has been invested in bog drainage, and to give the best employment possible.

When considering the question of the cost of peat production the fact must be taken into account that very many of those engaged in turf production live in areas where there is no other form of employment available. If they were not engaged in turf production they would probably be on the dole. In assessing the real cost of turf, one must take into account the difference between what people would be paid if they were on the dole and the amount paid to people in this country to produce something for the people living in this country.

I support the measure wholeheartedly but I should like the proposed investigation to be thorough and to throw up the mistakes which there have undoubtedly been so that in future the mistakes may be corrected and we will have more economic production and greater production.

Every time I come to Dublin, I see lorry loads of briquettes on their way to the West, to my own county. The Government should do something to try to compel people in the west of Ireland to use the resources of the west of Ireland. One must be cruel to be kind. I sent 330,000 tons of turf from Galway to Dublin during the war. It is a terrible thing to see at the present time foreign lorries using foreign petrol transporting to my county fuel which should be produced there. Something must be done about it.

I thank the House for their reception of this Bill. Senator Flanagan mentioned the disposal of surplus machines at the end of the war. In 1947 there was a fuel crisis and, as a result, it became necessary to get large semi-automatic machines and then when the full supply of British coal came into the country, which under our successive trade agreements cannot be tariffed, the machines became out-dated. They were not fully mechanised and there was absolutely no hope of making use of them for any modern form of peat production. That explains why they had to be disposed of.

Senator McDonald made references to the management of Bord na Móna and the management was referred to indirectly or directly by other speakers. I have known all the people in Bord na Móna and have been many times with the Board and have sat many times at meetings, not only with the Board, the chairman and the manager, but also with what might be described as informal meetings on the bog with the staff. I do not know of any more dedicated staff in the whole of this country. Every aspect of their operation has been examined by themselves and, in consultation with world famous consultants of the very highest order, such matters as the entire structure of the sales policy, market research into the likely demand for their various products and the examination of the whole of the maintenance of the machines. The footing machines, without which the cost of turf would be absolutely prohibitive, were invented by one of the engineers of Bord na Móna. The examination of the costings of the introduction of polythene, whether there would be a net saving after allowance for cost of material and implementation on the bog has been part of one of their many investigations. They have a complete research department which has been working for many years under a very practical scientific adviser who has now left for another post but he did very good work for Bord na Móna in his time.

Every machine used by Bord na Móna was partly the result of examination of the results obtained abroad, in Germany and Denmark. The equipment either had to be completely designed here or else had to be adapted to allow for the surface of the Irish bogs being very, very soft. Members of the Seanad should read some of the documents of the research into the machines—the size, the shape of the channels through which the peat has to pass, the optimum speed of the machines, the difficulty involved in the generation of dust and moisture and the relation of the machines to the many different types of peat on the bog —because peat varies enormously in quality as everyone who comes from a peat area knows. The peat, for example, in the blanket bog of Mayo is different from some of the very light peats in the midlands. Quality of peat varies as bog is cut out and the peat at the top of the bog is quite different from the peat at the bottom of a bog 20 feet deep.

The Seanad can be assured that Bord na Móna will not object to examination by a firm of consultants because they are confident that they have a splendid record with good management up to now, as I am also.

Next about the question of peat moss litter. Peat moss is used for tomato production in this country. Peat moss exports and briquettes were valued at £727,000 in 1967 and peat moss exports increased by 15 per cent. A lot of the peat moss litter goes to Great Britain and the Channel Islands.

The expected life of the bogs is 25-30 years. An Foras Talúntais is experimenting in the use of bog, in fertilisation, and the drainage and growing of crops. At Lullymore and Timahoe experiments are being undertaken. One of the likely crops will be, possibly, grass-meal. The improvement of soil which was mentioned by one Senator is being undertaken by research carried out by An Foras Talúntais in association with University College, Dublin and Trinity College. I myself doubt whether it will ever be economic to try to break up heavy clays by the admixture of peat. Maybe I am too pessimistic about it.

There is also the question of using the lands of Bord na Móna that have ceased to produce peat for forestry and 550 acres have been taken over by the Department of Lands in Lyracrompane in Kerry. Senators may be interested to know, from the point of view of their descendants, that 100,000 acres of peat when fully exhausted, if entirely planted with trees at a cost of some £60 to £80 an acre, would yield eventually to our descendants £100 million in the value of the trees when they finally mature at the end of 50 years. We cannot take that into account in working out the finances in relation to Bord na Móna's present difficulties. It would be impossible.

There is a suggestion box in Bord na Móna. A Senator asked about that. The task of the consultants will be to do a complete investigation into all aspects of the Board's operations—engineering, management and financial. The final terms of reference have not been decided and the firm have not yet been chosen but they will be definitely an efficient firm of consultants. Senator Miss Davidson asked why we did not initiate this Bill earlier. The reason is that we always hope for better weather and being in charge of the Meteorological Division I have read something about the history of weather.

Weather information statistics were unreliable from before 1815 and much more reliable from 1880 but there have been cold weather cycles in Europe. In previous eras information was derived from logs of seamen and of ships' captains and from the naturalistic paintings of artists. The true statistical analyses have been since 1880, and there was a cold summer period for years after 1912. We have colder summers now. It is mostly a matter of cold summers, which do not affect tourism as much as wet summers, but slightly colder summers combined can make all the difference between a profit and a loss for Bord na Móna.

Bord na Móna, in looking back on whatever reports they could have got from the Meteorological Office, were not rash in assuming that the weather cycle through which we were passing when they commenced operations was an unusually good one. We are introducing the Bill at the point which we think is essential. Senator Quinlan referred to the relationship between peat production for thermal power stations and the coming of nuclear energy. The milled peat and sod peat production will be declining in relation to thermally produced power in the next ten years and it will be of far less importance relative to the use of oil and nuclear energy by 1980. Therefore there is not any reason why we should not take the attitude that we should want to preserve employment on the bogs, as Senator Quinlan suggested, to avoid unnecessary payments outside for our fuel requirements and at the same time for Bord na Móna to be as efficient as possible in relation to weather conditions. It does not require any great philosophical analysis to produce a policy which is right in relation to the nation's needs.

If the reverse were the situation, if peat were to have an increasingly greater part in the matter of our electricity supply, we would be in a very serious position because the cost of electricity here is reasonable, comparatively, in relation to other countries and it is very important that we should keep it so. The suggestion made that workers might invest in Bord na Móna shares would not be a suitable one to adopt because Bord na Móna operate a business like a copper mine or a coal mine which has a limited life and the money lent would be subject to redemption and repayment. I do not think Bord na Móna represent a suitable industry for investment of equity capital.

Many references were made to the labour situation. I do not propose to enter that field because the causes of the strike are being investigated by the Minister for Labour. At the present time, as far as I can ascertain from the Minister for Labour, the wage levels there are comparable to those in similar industries. That is the position. My only comment on the whole matter is a very simple and human one—that in a great many cases if the decisions of the Labour Court were accepted by trade unions, in the long term of five years the effect in total employment or in family employment within the industry might be more advantageous than would sometimes be the case when Labour Court decisions are rejected. I do not think that that can be regarded as an unfair comment even by representatives of the trade unions who, I think, would also like to see the Labour Court regarded as the final court of appeal. We shall have the report of the Minister for Labour, and Bord na Móna are not worried that such an inquiry is being made.

I wish to emphasise that the question of what the level of wages should be in Bord na Móna was not in any way related to the deficit, to the immediate disability of Bord na Móna to pay their way, and the fact that this Bill was not initiated when the strike took place had nothing whatever to do with the basic offer of Bord na Móna or with the decision of the Labour Court. I want to make that clear. There was no question of Bord na Móna being in a desperate position for money.

Mention was made of briquettes by Senator McDonald. Briquettes were in short supply for many years. The price of loose briquettes for domestic use was increased by 10/- per ton from July, 1967. The price of baled briquettes remained unchanged during the past year. There is a fall-off in demand for solid fuel and Bord na Móna have initiated a sales campaign to sell the available supplies.

Senator Miss Davidson and others asked whether four years is the maximum period of interest remission. This depends on the report of the firm of consultants and our attitude to the report and on the success Bord na Móna will have from the point of view of better weather. Senator Miss Davidson asked whether Bord na Móna should not sell milled peat to the ESB at the full cost of production. Oil prices have declined and I do not think it is a good idea for Bord na Móna to get the full cost of production in relation to the ESB because if they were allowed automatically to do so, simply because of poor weather conditions this might be a disincentive to the maintenance of the high productivity of the organisation.

Senator Miss Davidson spoke about superannuation for workers. If the trade unions are prepared to increase the contributions to the superannuation fund it will be possible to increase the pensions. This is now under discussion between the unions and the Board and it is hoped that an equitable distribution of payments between the Board and the unions can be agreed on.

The Russians came here in order to exchange views on processes and methods but some of the conditions applicable here would not apply to Russia because the climate is different and there are bogs in Russia which are the size of the whole of Ireland. Whereas they could learn from us and we from them, it is a matter of which particular factors apply to both countries. I believe myself there is no intrinsic built-in factor which will result in a perpetual deficit to Bord na Móna. I hope they will be able to get back to a profitable basis. The Fóidín experiment has not concluded, but so far has been reasonably successful. I have been informed of that very definitely by the Board and the area of bog cut each year is being extended.

I am hopeful that the weather cycle will change. No one will notice this to any great extent. The ordinary people will not notice it unless they remember that they had a very slightly warmer summer feeling in the period before 1950. But it could make all the difference to the actual state of humidity on the bog surface. I might add that this actual state of humidity on the bog surface is a particular condition—the actual state of humidity of the particular particles on the bog in relation to changing weather.

I thank the House for their reception of the Bill.

Could the Minister give me any guarantee that the Board will pay farmers for land acquired?

I am sorry. I overlooked that question in my notes. My advice is that delay in payment for land is mostly due to title difficulties. If the Senator has any particular case in mind I will see to it that the managing director specially examines that case. I have had letters about this myself. In nearly every case it was quite clear that difficulties in ascertaining title were the cause of the delay in payment. Certainly, it had no relation to the Board's financial position.

Would the Minister look upon the broad future of Bord na Móna, not so much as that of running down a national asset but as a centre for group development and corporations within those areas and consequently something dynamic and vital for the time ahead, something people could invest in rather than a negative thing like a coppermine?

Acting Chairman (Mr. O'Sullivan)

I cannot allow that.

I cannot accept the Minister's explanation in reply to my question. If the title was not in order the Board would not be able to acquire the property. If it was under a compulsory purchase order the title would not enter into it.

Will the Senator send me the case?

I will do that.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
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