In fact, the present number of Deputies is more or less unfair. I hate this catchcry which has been going around the country for some months past, to "save the West". I would love if these people who are meddling in the west would keep away from us. All we want in the west is a fair deal. We want a reasonable way of living. Our area, as everyone knows, is not adapted to large industries. Our land is not able to maintain in modern comfort a high density of population. The very nature of our countryside presents many problems unknown to the eastern and better-off counties. We are not begging; we are not unreasonable, when we highlight our problems. The only way we can seek redress is through our county councils, our committees at local levels, and our public representatives in the Dáil and Seanad at national level.
When Senator Dooge drew a comparison at great length between Dublin County and South Mayo, he was not being exactly fair. Senator Dooge knows a considerable amount about Dublin County because at one time he was Chairman of Dublin County Council, but I submit he knows very little about the problems of the west. If he did, he would not have taken those two counties for comparison. Dublin County has a population of 146,000—74,600 electors—which is 29,181 of the population per Deputy, which is 9,153 or 45.07 per cent above the national average. According to the latest figure, South Mayo has a population of 67,798—41,857 electors—which 16,950 of the population per Deputy, or 15.37 of the population per Deputy below the national average. Comparing those two districts and their populations, Senator Dooge made no allowance for hospitals, boarding schools, tourists, visitors, hotels, holiday camps, large housing estates, Dublin Airport, factories, etc., all of which influence the number of people in a particular area.
If on the other side we take into account the number of electors per Deputy, we get a different picture. In Dublin we have 14,920 electors per Deputy, which is 3,021 above the national average—a big difference—or 25 per cent as against something over 40: 25 per cent of electors as against 45 per cent of population. In South Mayo, we have 10,464 electors per Deputy which is 1,435 electors or 12.06 below the national average. Therefore, you will see that the comparison of electors per Deputy is a more realistic figure than that of population per Deputy. I am not saying that, now, because it is in our favour but it is a fact.
The next consideration would be the difficulties or the problems which arise in the two constituencies which were offered here for consideration. The northern portion of Dublin county could be covered. Dún Laoghaire and Rathdown, I understand, covers a large portion of the rural area of South Dublin. North Dublin could in fact be covered by an active Deputy on a push bicycle. The people are generally well-off. They live in good houses, on the best of land. All services are available in most cases. Roads present no problem. Hospitals and schools are on the doorstep. Every requirement for the household is within easy distance. Employment is good and available to all who wish to seek and use it.
County Mayo stretches from Tallaghbawn, which is 30 miles west of Westport, through Westport, Castlebar, Kiltimagh, Kilkelly, Charlestown and Ballaghaderreen, a length of 80 miles approximately with three-fifths of County Mayo stretching to the south for an average of 25 miles but, in some areas, stretching to the south for a distance of 35 miles. One finds every conceivable type of problem which is met with in a rural area and, in an isolated west of Ireland area, it has to be met with and dealt with by Dáil Deputies and Senators in that area. Roads, housing, hospital services, education, scholarships, piers, harbours, water and sewerage extensions, extensions of ESB to out-of-the-way areas, land acquisition and division, turbary and bog plots, drainage, social services, telephone and ESB extensions—in fact, every conceivable form of demand and request for help is made to Deputies and Senators by people in those areas —and that is the purpose they are elected to serve. Although many people would stress that they are legislators, we must bear in mind, at the same time, the constituency limits and the number of Deputies who were agreed on unanimously in the Dáil by all Parties—but not in the Seanad—in 1959.
The present arrangement of constituencies would have been quite acceptable and would not be under consideration now, were it not for the High Court decision of Mr. Justice Budd and on that decision and on his terms, the review of constituencies must now take place. If we have a review now—and we must—is it not the most natural and economic decision to put the full facts before the electorate, to tell them the changes the Government recommend, to set out those changes as clearly as human intelligence can devise on the ballot paper and to leave the decision with the people? I cannot see anything more reasonable and I ask the Opposition if they would now have raised the tolerance question, were it not for Mr. Justice Budd's decision.
The present position, as I have stated, is that Dublin County has 3,021 or 25.09 above the national average per Deputy, South Mayo has 1,435 persons or 12.06 below the average. All that is asked for in the Third Amendment of the Constitution Bill is that a possible variation of one-sixth above the national average and one-sixth below the national average should be written into an Act amending the Constitution.
With regard to population, the national average per Deputy is 20,028. To add one-sixth to that brings a maximum figure which we want to write in now and pass in this legislation. The maximum figure per Deputy would be 23,366 and the minimum would be 16,690. If we examine the present figures per Deputy in the reply given by the Minister for Local Government in the Dáil we shall find that, at present, there are just four constituencies where the number of population per Deputy exceeds that which is proposed in this Bill. These four constituencies are Dublin North-East, Dublin North-West, Dublin County, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.
There is at present no constituency, not even in the worst area in the west of Ireland, where the number of population per Deputy is below the figure proposed, but there are four under 17,000. The figure proposed is 16,690. Actually, there are four under 17,000 —North Mayo, South Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo-Leitrim—and there are four more under 18,000—Cork South-West, Donegal South-West, Galway East and Monaghan. All we want, as far as the amendment is concerned, is that our position in the west of Ireland will be at least stabilised at its present membership until the matter has to come up for consideration again in 12 years time. When we take into account the representation we have had, I should like to point out that, in very many cases in the west and south of Ireland, the Senators have to come along and assist and do a lot of work where the Dáil Deputies are unable to do it.
What is the position with regard to representation in the Seanad? If one examines the list of 60 members of the Seanad, one will find that, of the 60, 14 are living in Dublin city; seven are living in Dublin county and 13 in the rest of Leinster, so that the province of Leinster has resident in it 34 Members of Seanad Éireann and the province of Munster has 13 Members of Seanad Éireann. Three counties of Ulster have eight Members of Seanad Éireann and the province of Connacht has five.
If you add 34 Senators to assist Deputies in Leinster, then anybody who wants to have a problem aired or who seeks advice or information would only have to travel ten miles to the nearest Deputy or Senator. However, in Connacht thousands and thousands of people have never seen a Dáil Deputy, except possibly at election times, and Dáil Deputies are not available to them because of the extent of the district. In South Mayo, we have four Deputies and two of them are resident in Dublin because they are Ministers and two live in the county. However, it does not make the slightest difference. The two Fine Gael Deputies in the county are men for whom I have the highest regard and I sincerely hope they will be returned for many years to serve the interests of their people. As far as they are concerned, the problems with which they deal are the problems of people of every political persuasion. In the same way anybody who comes to me gets the greatest possible help, no matter what Party he supports.
I ask the House, and Senator O'Quigley in particular, would they stand for any opposition to the amendment of the Constitution which tends to place that representation for our province and our county in jeopardy? I cannot believe that the Senator will. If we are left with our present representation, then we can tell a number of those busybodies who are going around to leave the west alone. If, on the other hand, we have Labour and Fine Gael joining to defeat that proposal, let them take as their slogan not "Save the West" but "To Hell or to Connacht".
Another thing which is being said quite dishonestly, something which I want to have corrected, is that an effort is being made to have more Dáil Deputies as a result of these measures. Taking the figures which are proposed in the amendments to the Constitution, it is absolutely truthful to say that no provision is made for a single extra Deputy. I hope that that untruthful and unjust propaganda will not be continued. Undoubtedly the Fourth Amendment which deals with the straight vote and single-seat constituency would be of great advantage to the electorate. Many times every day, and most of all on Sundays, Deputies and Senators are approached by constituents in regard to their problems, people seeking help and seeking advice, some of whom may travel 40 miles to see their representative. The Deputies barely know anything about these people, their families, their backgrounds, and so on, but in all cases those people are met with sympathy and dealt with as fairly as possible. What an immense improvement there would be in the service available to local people if they had a Deputy in their own area, if the constituencies were small, single-member constituencies?
The point has been made that we would get better representatives, and I agree, and when I say that, I do not mean that which was stressed here today; I mean representatives who would be better and who would be in a better position to give a better service to the people they represent. As I said, the background and so on of people who travel long distances to see their representatives are not known to the Deputy or Senator and he can only get advice about them through the county council or in some roundabout way. Long ago it used be the national teacher but, of course, no national teachers are living in the country now; they are all living in the towns, and they are no longer available to give the people advice or help. Long ago they were regarded as the people's guides, philosophers and friends. Now they are not available to be consulted by the people or by Deputies or Senators.
In rural areas a change to the single-member constituency is a must. It would be a tremendous advantage to the constituents and also to the public representative, whether he is a Deputy or a Senator. So far as by-elections are concerned, when they take place, it will be within a small limited area where the candidates will be selected for the appeal they make to the local constituents, for the service they have been giving, for the example they have been setting and because of the usefulness of their lives in their particular areas. All these things will be taken into consideration. Only people of the highest integrity, of really worthwhile character, will be offered as candidates. In that way, and I have no hesitation in saying this, the standard of representation in the Dáil will be greatly improved.
