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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 May 1969

Vol. 66 No. 13

Post Office (Amendment) Bill, 1969— Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

The Bill has three main purposes, all of which require changes in existing legislation. I should perhaps mention that the principal piece of legislation governing Post Office activities is the Post Office Act of 1908 which, with relatively few amendments, is still in force to-day.

The first purpose is to enable regulations to be made to allow literature and articles specially adapted for the use of the blind to be sent free of postage.

The principle of free postage for literature and articles specially adapted for the use of the blind is already accepted internationally in the Universal Postal Union Convention. Most countries have now abolished postal charges, other than airmail charges, for this class of mail. Our postal charges in this country for such articles have, for many years, been nominal; they range from a minimum of ½d. to 2½d. for packets of 15 lb. Until recently those rates satisfied the interests concerned but the two major organisations concerned with the welfare of the blind in this country have asked that free postage facilities should be provided in line with the general practice elsewhere. In order to accede to this request it is necessary to amend the Post Office Act, 1908, which gives power to fix, by statutory order, rates of postage for different classes of postal packets but does not give power to permit postal packets of any prescribed class or classes to be sent free of postage. Subsection (1) (c) of section 2 of the Bill proposes this extension of the regulation-making power. Any regulation made under section 2 will be subject to the requirement that it shall be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and that notice of the making of the regulation shall be published in Irish Oifigiúil.

The second purpose is to transfer certain powers from the Minister for Finance to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Statutory instruments made under the Post Office Act, 1908, must be executed by the Minister for Finance, as the successor of the Treasury. The Minister for Finance and myself agree, and the Government has accepted the view, that such instruments, being of a technical character and primarily the concern of the Post Office, should be made by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, subject to the consent of the Minister for Finance where charges, fees or scales of weights are involved. In subsection (1) (a) and (2) of section 2, and in section 3 the authority of the Oireachtas is sought for this change.

In detail, subsection (1) (a) of section 2 gives the power to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to make, by warrant, regulations fixing the rates of postage and other sums to be charged on postal packets and to regulate the scale of weights and the circumstances according to which those rates and sums are to be charged, subject, however, as provided for in subsection (2), to the consent of the Minister for Finance.

Section 3 transfers to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs the power vested in the Minister for Finance under section 4 of the Act of 1908 to make by warrant such regulations as may be necessary for carrying into effect postal arrangements with foreign states and also the more important power, given under section 82 of the Act, to make regulations generally in respect of any matter authorised or required by the Act. The section again provides that the consent of the Minister for Finance is necessary where financial considerations are involved.

The third purpose is to permit greater flexibility in mail-handling arrangements.

Section 4 provides for the amendment of section 15 of the Act of 1908. That section provides, in effect, that where the despatch or delivery of letters might be delayed by having to deal at the same time with printed papers, samples and postcards, the Post Office can hold over those items until the despatch or delivery next following that by which they would ordinarily be sent. The deferable mail is, of course, that posted at reduced rates, and consists, at present, mainly of circulars and bills.

The Post Office is now faced with greater problems in the postal service than it was in 1908. These problems arise from the steady increase, year by year, in the volume of mail posted, the trend towards shorter hours and more congenial hours for the staff, and the difficult traffic conditions in the cities that impede the collection, transmission and delivery of mail. A stage has now been reached where, in order to ensure that letters are despatched in due course and incur no risk of delay in delivery, greater freedom in the treatment of mail posted at reduced rates is necessary. Accordingly, Section 4 proposes to remove the present restriction on the power to defer such mail only until the next despatch or delivery and to empower the Post Office to deal with it at off-peak periods. The British Post Office got rid of the restriction in 1953 and I understand that most other postal administrations are similarly free to make flexible arrangements. This power is particularly necessary at the present time so as to enable delivery patterns to be rationalised in the light of the further reduction in working hours—to 37½ net—which will shortly be introduced for postmen and to enable a 5-day working week, on whatever basis is finally settled, to be granted to them. The form the rationalisation will take is not yet clear as discussions are going on with the staff on various aspects. But probably some kind of balanced arrangements may be necessary in Dublin and other large centres, that is, letters and newspapers would be delivered in the morning and other mail at a later time or times. It may also be necessary, in order to ensure the prompt despatch of letters, similarly to hold back other mail for a later despatch. I may mention that it is intended to continue to give subscribers' copies of newspapers the same treatment as letters, despite the low rate of postage charged.

In brief, the intention of the Bill is to give the Department in a number of matters the greater flexibility demanded by modern conditions.

We welcome this Bill in so far as the Parliamentary Secretary has announced that concessions will be made to the blind and other less fortunate sections in our community. Anything that is done in this regard must be welcomed by all but I am a little apprehensive about one or two of the sections. The Parliamentary Secretary has not made it quite clear as to how far he intends to go with the powers he is taking under subsection (4).

Can we expect either the introduction of first and second class mail which will in the main mean an increase on the present rates? I am also not very happy about the giving of power to the Post Office to defer the delivery of packets for more than one day. The Minister is taking more power than is necessary in this respect. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell me whether, under this section, the packets which we as Members of the Oireachtas receive with the Order papers, will be treated as letters or packets and whether we can expect to get the excellent service that we now enjoy.

One of the main problems one finds with the postal service at the present time and which is most regrettable is the fact that such a large number of temporary whole-time postmen who, after giving 20 or 30 years' service are sent out at the age of 65 with no pension rights whatsoever. These people deserve better treatment than this. There are also a number of counter clerks in post offices who have the same problem. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will take a closer look at his organisation in this regard and improve the working conditions within the very important organisation that he controls. I should like to compliment the Department on the progress that has been made in certain sections of the service. For my own part— perhaps I am lucky—the service in the general area in which I reside is second to none. When I am at home I can post a letter for general delivery up to 8.30 p.m., whereas in some of the Dublin offices the letter would have to be posted before 5.30 p.m.

To be a little more critical, it is unfair of the Post Office when they decide to close down a sub-office in rural Ireland that such inconvenience is caused to the public. Taking Vicars-town as an example, which is in the Parliamentary Secretary's constituency, tremendous inconvenience was caused to the less well-off sections of the community as a result of that closure. It is unfair to expect pensioners and others to travel five miles to Ballybrittas or four miles to Stradbally. Some of them may have to go across the county border to Athy in order to collect their pension or post a registered letter.

When that post office was closed, I, myself, saw letters lying around the small posting box because the box was not adequate to take the volume of post. As we progress as a nation, the services should improve and should improve for everyone in every section of the community. One thing I find about the present administration is that those of us who are happy to live in rural Ireland are getting a worse service day by day in some areas. This should not happen. There are villages and small towns throughout the country from which the services are being whittled away. The Parliamentary Secretary might also consider erecting telephone kiosks outside post offices rather than inside them. Perhaps the Acting Chairman may consider that I am wandering from the Bill.

The Senator is wandering from it.

We have not had an opportunity of discussing the Post Office in this House since I first came here 12 years ago.

Acting Chairman

The Senator will have to make an opportunity for himself. He cannot do it on this Bill.

We did not even have an opportunity of discussing it on the Appropriation Bill last year. We do not have the advantage of having an active Parliamentary Secretary who can do something about our complaints.

Acting Chairman

This Bill will not give the Senator that opportunity.

I should like, then, to refer to the Explanatory Memorandum. It is not very informative and I find it quite misleading. It does not spell out everything that the Parliamentary Secretary has in mind. His Second Reading speech did not help the House and I had hoped that he would be a little more specific. We are more or less left in the dark as to what it is proposed to introduce by way of regulation under this Bill.

We should not give the Department power to delay delivery of mail. If this is allowed, we might find people receiving mail on three days per week only. It is reasonable to assume that some attempt would be made to introduce a five-day week in the Post Office soon. If the Minister is to have the power to withhold packets and postcards for a period of time not specified, the chances are that the service will deteriorate a lot. The granting of that power by the Oireachtas will not be in keeping with the progress that we would expect to see in the country at the present time.

I should also like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if, when he gets around to the new regulations and the fixing of rates, the public will have any redress. Taking postage stamps as an example, their cost has been steadily increasing. I realise that the Parliamentary Secretary has said that he proposes to afford free postage to certain sections. Will people be able to apply for this service or will they have to take what comes? I shall raise the other points I wish to make on the Committee Stage.

I welcome this Bill and I shall endeavour to confine my remarks to what is in the Bill. The Bill, as I see it, is designed to do two things. It is designed to apply free postal services for the blind and that is certainly very welcome. I may say I wonder why it has taken so long to provide this sort of thing, which is generally welcome. I know they have facilities at the moment for a reduced postal charge but I am glad that the Minister is finally coming around to providing free postal services for those people.

The second part of the Bill is to enable the Minister, as I see it, to make the necessary regulations to introduce a two-tier system of postage, something like that which has operated in Britain for some time. I am sure he will have examined what has been happening in Britain in that respect and he will ensure that it will operate more efficiently here. I welcome that because I see it as an opportunity to improve the conditions of service of the staff employed in the Post Office.

The five-day week is now generally in operation in industry. The absence of a five-day week in the postal service must mean a hardship on the staff, must make it more difficult for the Post Office to recruit, train and maintain adequate staff. I hope it will be possible to introduce a five-day week as widely as possible and with full consultation with the trade unions which so effectively and efficiently represent the staff concerned.

In regard to the two-tier system, I think it is fair to say, in Dublin anyway, the present position is that the postmen in the early morning deliveries are over-burdened with mail and generally speaking the afternoon delivery is very light. Any change which would make it possible to even the burden would, I think, be of assistance. In regard to the question of the Saturday delivery, the position in Dublin is that the postmen are delivering mail to factories and offices which are closed and will not re-open until Monday and there is really no point in the postman delivering mail to those places on a Saturday as it is lying in the letter-boxes until Monday.

In regard to delivery to private residences, I do not think it would be any undue hardship if the delivery were held over until Monday. With the widespread use of telephones, the letter-box for personal correspondence is not that important and certainly not as urgent as it was a decade or so ago. The telephone is widely used now. It is becoming more generally available all the time and it is a fair comment to say that most of the letters delivered to private residences on Saturday are largely composed of bills and circulars. I do not think any of us would complain if our bills were not delivered until Monday or later, if possible.

It may seem to many people that the absence of a delivery on Saturday would be a setback but really we have had to face up to a situation where the banks, which were previously opened on Saturday for a half-day, are now generally closed on that day all over the country. We have come to live with that and adapt ourselves to it. We have a situation in which the ESB offices are now closed on Saturday and we have also had to adapt ourselves to that situation. We are now reaching the stage where a Monday to Friday week will be generally operative and in regard to places which find it hard to have such a five-day week it could be operated on a rotational basis so that everybody would not necessarily be off on a Saturday. I am glad to see, at any rate, that the Minister is preparing to accept a five-day week. I welcome that and I hope it will be put into operation after full and adequate consultation with the trade unions representing the staff so that the five-day week should come into operation as quickly as possible. We in the Labour Party, therefore, welcome the Bill.

I cannot regard the prospect of a deterioration in the postal service, even in the good cause of a five-day week, with quite the equanimity of Senator Murphy. Already it is most unsatisfactory. If one is writing a letter to another country at the weekend, and that is the commonest time for many people to write letters, who have not the time during the week, unless that letter is posted by a certain time on Saturday it does not begin its journey until Sunday night. It sits around this country until Sunday night because there is already a total closure from the afternoon of Saturday until the afternoon of Sunday. You cannot get your letter on its way to another country. It has to sit here in the post box during that time when, if it could be dealt with, it could be across the Atlantic over the weekend. One can scarcely view the prospect of a further deterioration in the postal service which Senator Murphy looks on so cheerfully. This is something I cannot readily accept.

One can understand that one would like to work towards a five-day week but it seems to me that a five-day week for essential services should not operate on the usual Monday to Friday basis. I know that is the usual way the five-day week operates. One thing which cheers me very much is driving home at lunchtime on Saturday and finding so little traffic on the road. It is not because I want to get home more quickly but because I realise the change which has taken place in this country. I am very glad to see that most people in industry have a five-day week. As I said, in the ordinary way the five-day week is a week from Monday to Friday but in certain cases people who work on a five-day week basis are required to work, and are compensated for so doing, during the weekend. They may work five days in the week but those include Saturday or Sunday or both. If they work either or both of those days they should be suitably compensated. This should also be on a rotational basis so that people will not be asked to work weekend after weekend.

The operation of the five-day week does not mean that essential services must be closed down for the weekend. This matter is being pushed in a way which is undesirable. However, it is something I would not have referred to if Senator Murphy had not raised the issue. We should make a distinction between people working a five-day week and not working Saturday and Sunday and those working a five-day week who are engaged on essential services, and must of necessity work on Saturday and Sunday. The Post Office services at the moment are inadequate. I do not think people are generally aware that unless you post a letter which catches a 4.30 p.m. collection on Saturday it is not dealt with for 24 hours.

However, I should like to deal with a technical point in regard to the Explanatory Memorandum on this Bill. Explanatory Memoranda are supposed to explain Bills but this one does not explain this Bill in any satisfactory way. If I understand the Bill correctly, and indeed I am aided by the Parliamentary Secretary's speech which is very helpful in this respect, section (2) (1) (a) of the Bill makes a change in the responsibility of the Minister concerned.

In fact, it transfers the responsibility for rates of postage from one Minister to another. The Minister has explained this satisfactorily and I have no complaint in this respect. The Explanatory Memorandum is somewhat different. It relates only to one subsection of section 2. Section 2 provides for the "fixing" of rates of postage and other sums to be charged in respect of postal "packets". It does indeed do that. There is transfer of responsibility for fixing rates from one Minister to another. The Explanatory Memorandum should explain the main purpose of section 2. In this respect this item of the Explanatory Memorandum is unsatisfactory.

When we come to the explanation of section 5 the Explanatory Memorandum provides a description of what is done. There is no mention there of what appears to be a widening of the area to which this provision of delaying mail applies. I may not be interpreting this correctly. I have tried to trace this through previous Acts and I am confused.

Section 4 of this Bill, which is covered by section 5 in the Explanatory Memorandum, effects two changes. One is to make it possible for second-class mail to be postponed, not to the next delivery, but to any later delivery. The other effect is to change the character of mail which can so be postponed, widening it from book packets, sample packets and postcards to any postal packets other than letters.

This may be only a technical change but I do not read it like that. The Minister's speech does not explain this satisfactorily. It glosses over this completely. It does not explain whether this has any significance. In the 1908 Act reference is made to book packets and sample packets but I cannot find any definition of the book packets in that Act. There are some definitions in the Act but there is no definition of a book packet. Section 89 is the definition section. It explains inward bound and outward bound vessels. It has references to coaches and carts and horses, but there is no reference to book packets, sample packets and postcards. Is it the case that the new phraseology which has been substituted by this amendment changes the mail to which the section applies or does it not change it? Is this a technical amendment? The Minister should not introduce an explanatory memorandum which leaves any doubt about the position and the changes.

There is reference to amending section 15 of the 1908 Act by section 1 (2) of the 1920 Act. I am unable to find anything about the book packets nor does this section tell me what is a printed packet. It would have been helpful if the Parliamentary Secretary had told us more about this section. If the area of second-class mail is being widened we should be told about it. The Explanatory Memorandum is inadequate, as is the Minister's speech. I should be glad of clarification.

We come now to section 4 and to the delays of delivery beyond the next delivery. I am unhappy about this section. It is bad enough that we should have reached the stage where mail has to be delayed. It is bad enough that the delay should be extended, but extension without limit is terrible indeed. Is there no limit to the extent to which mail can be delayed? Could we have a verbal assurance about the extension of the deferment of delivery of second-class mail? Senator Murphy says that we should be glad not to receive some mail. We would be sorry not to receive mail if our electricity was cut off before the bill was paid. Second-class mail should be delivered within a reasonable time. One recognises that there is first-class and second-class mail and if one is to get a cheaper rate the second-class mail could not have the same priority as first-class mail. Up to now the priority was defined and we knew the second-class mail would come by the next delivery. This Bill appears to extend the provisions for delaying the second-class mail. Sometimes such mail is important as it may bring notices of important meetings.

That is very important at the present time.

It includes a whole range of material of practical importance. If the position is that there can be no guarantee of when such mail would be delivered, people would be dubious of using such a system of communication. It would be inadequate and out-of-date. We seem to be going backwards to the position which prevailed before the pre-paid mail system was introduced. At that time there was no certainty as to when mail would be delivered. The Minister should give us some idea of the intention with regard to this type of mail.

This Bill opens up in a very innocent way; but when one goes down through the Bill it is not so innocent. This question of first and second-class mail is a very serious matter. We have seen it in England. I will give some examples of what is happening. The Minister says the deferred mail will be paid for at reduced rates and that it consists at present mainly of circulars and bills. It also includes ungummed private letters.

It should not include such letters.

Private letters are supposed to be gummed.

Let us take the example of a business firm which was spending £5 a day on postage. When the postage charges were increased the bill went up to £6 per day which was a colossal increase on the people involved. Many of them found it necessary to leave envelopes open so that they would come under the 5d postage and keep their bills down. A letter which used to cost 5d now costs 6d. This statement means that if an envelope is not gummed it is going to be thrown aside. It is not true that this mail consists mainly of circulars and bills. It is thrown aside until the next delivery.

Again and again one receives letters which, according to the postmark, were posted two days earlier; in other words, it has lost a day because it has missed a certain process. People are complaining that the present postal service is not as good as the postal service of ten years ago because where they formerly had been sure of getting letters next morning, they are not sure of getting them now. There are new electronic sorting devices which, I believe, the Post Office are getting ready to introduce, but first of all they must ensure that letters are delivered promptly. It is too bad to see people rushing with an urgent letter, to catch the post only to find next morning that the letter has not been delivered.

It has been suggested that with the increased number of telephones we have the position where the need for posting letters to the same extent does not arise. If one posts a letter from Dublin to Cork it is going to cost sixpence, but if one telephones Cork from Dublin how much is that going to cost? A telephone call cannot be substituted for a letter except where local calls are concerned when it is cheaper to telephone than to use the postal service.

With regard to the provision of telephones, there are at least 10,000 people already on the waiting list so that we cannot say we are sufficiently well provided with telephones to counteract the delay in the delivery of letters. It has been said that letters should not be delivered on a Saturday morning in order to comply with the working of the five-day week. The argument was put forward that letters delivered on a Saturday were mainly bills, but the fact of the matter is that they might be cheques; it might be money instead of bills that are being delivered on Saturday.

You cannot cash a cheque on Saturday, anyway.

Of course you can, provided your credit is good.

What kind of cheques does the Senator receive? While we are on the delivery service question, I should like to say that though the conditions of our postmen have been greatly improved, they are one section of the community who should be treated very well because they are the king-pin of normal communications. The status of our postmen and their level of wages should be brought up to a very satisfactory level considering the very important service these men are giving to the country, whether it be in rain, hail or snow. Postmen should be provided with transport where it is convenient and possible to do so. In the past a postman was provided with a bicycle, a pump and a repair outfit and that was it. The non-established postman has to hurry around in the morning and get his job done so that he will be free to earn something in the afternoon to supplement his wages. I believe the work of the postmen should be organised so as to provide a full-time job.

Another alternative to communication by telephone or by letter is by telegram, but we all know that our telegraphic service is almost non-existent. If we want to send a telegram, certainly the message will be taken and it will be delivered. Generally speaking, however, one is told that it cannot be delivered until the next morning, but very often that is far too late. It is not for me to suggest—indeed, I am unable to do so — an improvement so far as our telegraphic service is concerned. but the present system is most unsatisfactory.

Would the Senator please relate that to postal charges?

I am relating the postal services to the fact that if we arrive at a stage where we may have a five-day week and find it necessary to send telegrams, we will not be able to get a telegram delivered during the time when there is no letter delivery service. Priority should be given to all kinds of letters rather than to packages and parcels. The average letter contains a message of importance, even if it is merely convening a meeting, but some are more important than others.

When considering this matter the Minister should realise that the cost of our postal service is very high at the present time. I suppose sixpence for a letter might not be much for a person who writes the odd letter but it is a colossal imposition on firms involved in the issue of large quantities of mail every day. There are plenty of small firms who have to post between ten and 20 dozen letters per day and when one calculates twenty dozen letters at sixpence a letter it is £6 a day and that is a very heavy imposition on the small firm who is probably trying to give some kind of employment. There will be very few members of the staff getting that amount of money per day in these small firms. Apparently very little thought is given to the impact of increased postal charges. They are put on as a matter of course. I hope the Minister is not thinking of bringing in a two-tier postal system, such as the system in operation in England at the moment, because it has caused enough nuisance and trouble over there.

I think the Minister in his statement here at some stage or other has mentioned this question of this two-tier postage charge or something that would imply it. I should like an assurance from the Minister that he has no such idea in mind, because even at the present cost of the ordinary postage stamp—6d. for a gummed letter and 5d. for one ungummed and 4d. for a postcard—these rates are very heavy. Finally I think that so far as the sorting and delivery of letters is concerned a great deal of reorganisation needs to be done still to ensure that a prompt delivery service will be achieved.

When I offered to speak first I had a few points in my mind but Senator Garret FitzGerald has covered quite a number of them and Senator Rooney has covered a few more. I do not want to say any more except that while everybody would like to see the implementation of a five-day week in the Post Office and that the workers would have the benefit of this, it is also necessary to keep in our minds that in this year of 1969 it is very important that communcations, which are the life of the community, be raised to the highest possible standard. There seems to be a feeling, in discussing this whole problem, that the postal services are of necessity social services. The cost of posting at the moment has reached such a stage that now people consider they are paying very well for the service which they expect to get. This should not be lost sight of. The service to the public for what they pay for cannot be minimised in any way by considerations other than considerations of what the people pay for the service.

I know that in my own area where we are quite near Shannon Airport it often happens that Americans coming on business tend to locate themselves reasonably near the airport because they want fast communications back to their business headquarters, and they find that they have to pay a very substantial airmail fee or stamp and that yet letters may be in the post office for possibly a day or two after when they consider that they should be delivered from the other side. The emphasis should be seen on this, that whether it is first or second class mail the public are paying for the service, and the Post Office authorities must direct themselves to providing a service that is reasonable for the people who pay for it to expect. I know that there are difficulties, but in any ordinary commercial operations people have to get over their difficulties.

I would be concerned to know where finally the responsbility would be for deciding what is first and what is second class mail—whether it is the local postmaster or the postman who has to decide this.

We should direct the service, first or second class, to giving the best service to the community for the fees that they pay and at the same time have consideration for the people working in the service and see that they have the same facilities of most other workers, but service to the public should be the first consideration, because this is not a social service, it is a service for which the people pay a good fee and they expect to get results comparable to the fee that they pay.

I will make just a few brief remarks. First of all I welcome the section which will provide free postage for articles specially adapted for the use of the blind. The blind have a very special place in the hearts of every one of us. They are a section of our community cut off from the outside world to a very large extent except for the use of the radio and anything that can be done to further assist them is to be greatly welcomed. I certainly welcome this part of the Bill. I would like, however, to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if it would be possible also to include in the free postage section dealing with the blind that community of workers for the blind who collect money to assist them and who have perhaps not very much expense, but this expense could be diverted to the assistance of the blind if they were facilitated in this way and were saved from having to pay postage on circulars seeking financial assistance for the blind. This is something that might be heart-warming, and in dealing with the section of the Bill relating to the blind perhaps this could be incorporated in some way or other.

As regards the postal service in general I have no complaints, with one possible exception, and that is the counter service in post offices in country towns on certain days when there are old age pensions, children's allowances and things like that being given out. Then quite considerable delays occur in those places. I wonder if something could be done to speed up the service on those days.

The delivery service in my area leaves nothing to be desired. I had qualms at the time when the motor vans were introduced that when the winter hard weather came we would have considerable delays with these compared to the bicycle, because the bicycle always got through. I thought that perhaps the vans might be held up and that we might have to wait possibly for weeks even for a mail delivery. But that has not been the case. I do not know how they do it, but they get through on the most treacherous roads and we have not been left without them. The only complaint I have relates to the length of time it takes to get a telephone directory delivered.

Let me first of all say that I am grateful to the House for the manner in which they have accepted this Bill. Naturally there is a certain amount of reserve in that some Members of the House feel that the Post Office is taking on to itself a little more power under the Bill than it needs. I certainly did not expect any opposition to the provision of free postage for the blind and I did not get any, for it is normal to expect all of us to feel that we should provide as many facilities as we possibly can for people afflicted in this way.

I think that Senator Garret FitzGerald did go into some sections of the Bill which I might respectfully suggest might be dealt with more adequately on the Committee Stage, but since they have been raised on this Stage it would be proper for me to say that there is no intention under this Bill to have any change made in the rate-fixing arrangements. There is certainly no significance apart from the technical significance in the changeover from the description of book packets or packets other than letters. The Senator drew attention to the fact that there had been a change from the book packet to the printed packet. This is something which took place under the Post Office Act of 1920 so that in this particular section—subsection (4) —of the Bill nothing but letters are specifically introduced in order to have what could be described as a more convenient description for packets other than letters.

I was interested to hear Senator Rooney's observations with regard to an opened letter or a closed letter with its accompanying 5d or 6d stamp. Speaking off-the-cuff, let me say immediately that if somebody sends a written letter in an open envelope with a 5d stamp, the post office considers that it is legitimately entitled to charge an additional 2d on delivery of that letter. There is no such thing as a 5d. stamp with an open envelope. If a firm decided to keep its overheads down to, say, £5 or £6 a week, they could send circulars or bills as open letters for which the correct postage is 4d. They would be out of order in affixing a 5d stamp to the envelopes. I do not suppose that the Post Office would have any objection to anybody putting a 5d stamp on a letter which would only require a 4d one.

Senator McDonald used the occasion to deal with other matters besides those in the Bill. I suppose there is a temptation to do this and I cannot blame him for doing so. He did use the occasion to mention that he did not have an opportunity of discussing the Post Office before and he raised the matter with regard to pensions for temporary full-time postmen. In this regard, I can only tell the Senator that this is something which has been dealt with for some time and as I said recently in the Dáil, it is the subject of discussion at conciliation and arbitration level at the present time.

Both Senator McDonald and Senator Garret FitzGerald criticised the Explanatory Memorandum issued in connection with the Bill. I thought that my speech covered this specifically. Explanatory Memoranda are exactly what they are purported to be. They are an explanation of what is written into the Bill. Senator Garret FitzGerald mentioned section 2 of the Bill as it is explained in the Explanatory Memorandum. The Explanatory Memorandum with regard to this question reads:

Section 2 provides for the extension of the regulation-making powers in the Post Office Act, 1908 to permit postal packets of any prescribed class or classes to be sent free of postage.

In paragraph (b) of No. 1 of the Memorandum it is stated that one of the purposes of the Bill is:

to transfer to the Minsiter for Posts and Telegraphs certain powers vested in the Minister for Finance...

This is also dealt with in section 2 of the Bill.

The Parliamentary Secretary will appreciate that the initial statement appears to be justified by the Explanatory Memorandum in respect of section 3.

The Explanatory Memorandum covers what the Bill is about. We could go into detail in this that possibly could be better gone into on Committee Stage.

I agree that the Committee Stage is the right place to go into detail but I thought that the Explanatory Memorandum is something that could be dealt with on Second Stage.

My only comment on that is that the Explanatory Memorandum may fall down in not specifically stating to whom free postage facilities will be given. It could have been mentioned but it is written into the Bill.

I do not consider that the Explanatory Memorandum should be used to indicate that. I would not criticise it on those grounds.

I submit that the Explanatory Memorandum indicates what the Bill is about. Subsection (4) is specifically for the purpose of enabling the Post Office to continue to give first-hand treatment to mail as such. Senator Rooney mentioned that he was quite satisfied about mail being defferred. This particular subsection is to ensure that all fully paid up letters —letters bearing a 6d postage stamp— would get immediate treatment and that these letters can be delivered to the addressee the following day. The position up to now has been that the Post Office is specifically entitled to hold any post which is not first-class, fully paid letter post until the next sorting stage. This is very often has the effect that fully paid up letters may be held up to clear this.

It brings in first- and second-class issues.

It does not bring in something that has not already been there. The only difference in this regard is that I am asking that the Post Office be allowed to hold back non-fully paid up letters on the lines suggested by Senator Murphy who pointed out that in the city areas there is a heavy delivery of morning post and a lighter one in the afternoon. What we really want to do is to synchronise our system so that we can have fully paid-up letter post delivered by way of first post and have non-fully paid-up letter post dealt with on a second post. I was quite interested to hear Senator Rooney referring to a five-day week as "another day's work" because it struck me it was a day's work less.

I think this is naturally an occasion on which Senators would take the opportunity to speak but there is no doubt that with the shorter working hours and the better conditions which we have been endeavouring to provide for our postmen, as has been exhorted here, there is this problem of trying to synchronise our mail delivery. Let me say it would be only right to say, while we are talking about discussions in relation to a five-day week, that we do not think this five-day week should specifically leave out Saturday.

I hope in our discussions with the responsible trade unions concerned that we will be able to arrive at an agreement for a staggered five-day week so that we can have this, as I say, much needed delivery on Saturday. If we have not you will have the problem that a letter posted late on a Friday afternoon would have to lie until Monday morning before it could be taken to a sorting office and it would then not be delivered until Tuesday. That is a simple example. It is certainly not something which recommends itself to me. As I say, this is the subject of discussion at arbitration level with the Post Office. It is something where I hope an early agreement will be obtained. If there are any other matters which need to be raised I will certainly be very happy to discuss them on Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Is the House agreeable to that? It is now six o'clock and traditionally we adjourn at 6 for tea.

I am not clear if we agreed to take all Stages today.

It is a matter for the House.

We should all like to see it go through but I doubt if the Parliamentary Secretary would be able to get it through the Dáil before the Dáil is dissolved.

How many hours have we left?

We are not on a five-day week.

Perhaps if it were left over we could look at it during the interval and see if there are any amendments we should like to introduce.

We will look at it at 7.30.

Business suspended at 6.05 p.m. and resumed at 7.30 p.m.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

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