Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 May 1969

Vol. 66 No. 13

Curragh of Kildare Bill, 1968: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Minister for Defence (Mr. Hilliard)

The purpose of the Bill is to amend and extend the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1961, to provide effective control over the grazing of sheep on the Curragh lands, which are State property.

The grazing rights on the Curragh derive from grants of certain lands surrounding the Curragh which were made after the dissolution of the monastic institutions in Ireland and which included a right of commonage over the Curragh. Under the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1868, three Commissioners were constituted to ascertain, among other things, what (if any) rights of common of pasture existed on the Curragh. The Commissioners made their award in 1869 and it is embodied in and confirmed by the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1870.

The award set forth that the Curragh should not be grazed by any animals except sheep; it listed the persons whose claims to rights of common of pasture were allowed, and it set out the number of sheep which each such person was entitled to graze. The persons whose claims were allowed were either owners, lessees, tenants or occupiers of certain specified lands adjoining the Curragh, and the grazing rights are appurtenant to the specified lands.

The successors in title to these persons now hold the grazing rights. Prior to the enactment of the 1961 Act, the total number of sheep for which grazing rights on the Curragh existed was 7,957. Pursuant to the provisions of the 1961 Act, the enclosure by the Racing Board of the area of the Curragh Racecourse (about 816 statute acres) was authorised after the Board had arranged for the extinguishment of 1,432 sheep grazing rights and the non-exercise of 307 rights. A further small number of grazing rights was extinguished in connection with the sale of about two acres of the Curragh and the lease of a site for school building. The total number of sheep for which grazing rights now exist is 6,212 but it is reported that the number of sheep actually grazing there at various times is far in excess of this figure.

Pursuant to section 16 of the 1961 Act, the Curragh Bye-laws, 1964 (Statutory Instrument No. 7 of 1964) were made so that the entry of sheep to the Curragh could be controlled and that only those persons entitled to the grazing rights should put or keep sheep on the lands.

The Head Bailiff at the Curragh reported early in 1964 that a number of sheep-owners had placed sheep on the Curragh lands without having them branded with the official brand and had failed to comply with his instructions regarding the proper procedure to be followed. Communications were addressed by my Department to the sheep-owners concerned in May, 1964, drawing their attention to the appropriate provisions of the bye-laws and requesting them to arrange to have their sheep branded with the official brand or, alternatively, to have them removed from the lands immediately.

The sheep-owners concerned did not comply with the requirements of the Head Bailiff or of my Department and, in the circumstances, legal proceedings were instituted against a number of them. At the District Court, Droichead Nua, in February, 1965, the Justice convicted certain persons for contravening the bye-laws and imposed fines. Appeals were lodged by the defendants and, in May, 1965, the Circuit Court Judge at Naas Circuit Court allowed the appeals.

Following the review of the results of the 1965 court proceedings by the Attorney General, it is now considered that the 1961 Act should be amended on the lines set out in the Curragh of Kildare Bill, 1968. The important parts of this Bill are sections 2 and 3, which will put on the statute book provisions which, up to now, had only the status of bye-laws, and section 4 which will enable more effective action to be taken to deal with contraventions of the law. It is vital for the effective control of sheep-grazing on the Curragh and for ensuring that only those persons entitled to do so shall keep or graze sheep on the lands that legal proceedings instituted against persons contravening the law should be successful. I am assured that the Bill will, on enactment, achieve this result and I recommend it for the approval of the House.

Mr. Malone

It is always a mystery to me how quickly a flaw in legislation is discovered and how long it takes to correct it. Here we have a difficulty that arose after the passing of the 1961 Act and which has taken until now to remedy.

The Curragh of Kildare should rightly be the concern of Departments other than the Department of Defence. The Minister for Agriculture, the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Lands could also interest themselves in the Curragh to the betterment of various aspects of their Departments. By virtue of the fact that the Curragh of Kildare has the Army training camp and the necessary lands for practice known, I think, as the Blue Lands, there are other aspects of the Curragh which merit consideration and which I regret are not included in this Bill.

In his recent Budget speech, the Minister for Finance announced increases for mountain sheep. The Department of Agriculture have become worried about the fall in the sheep population of the country. On the Curragh there are 6,212 acres devoted exclusively to the grazing of sheep. Anybody travelling across the Curragh having any knowledge whatever of agriculture cannot but remark at the pathetic starved appearance of the lands—lands which, if they were fertilised and put to their maximum production, could graze at least six sheep per acre. Indeed, the grazing rights could be greatly increased and in spite of the number of rights extinguished as a result of the 1961 Act to enable the Racing Board to enclose about 800 acres, there would be no loss in the number of sheep available for grazing.

I know that the Minister gets no revenue from the grazing rights. The people having grazing rights pay rates just as the Racing Board pay rates to Kildare County Council. I am sure that if these people were approached in the right manner they would increase their contribution which, I think, is as low as 6d. I am subject to correction on that but the rate is, at least, very low. The increased contributions could be devoted to the improving of the lands of the Curragh to the benefit, ultimately, of the nation as a whole.

One has only to look at the enclosure made by the Racing Board to see the improvement that can be made in the land. Now that we can see the results great credit and thanks are due to those who agreed to the extinguishing of their grazing rights in order to enable that to be done, now that we see the results. Were it not for that, we could never have had the tremendous attraction which the various big races that have been since held at the Curragh have offered. On that point, the Department of Transport and Power come in in dealing with tourism because those races are a tourist attraction. Many of our visitors and particularly those from the United States have on numerous occasions made sure that their tour coincided with a race such as the Irish Sweeps Derby, the Guineas, the Oaks and some of the other big races which attract the cream of the horses from all over the world.

To look out from the stands at the Curragh and to see the improvement that has been made in the lands, is in itself proof of what can be done to the remainder of the Curragh. The Racing Board are to be congratulated on the section which they have planted with trees and this is where the Minister for Lands could very usefully come in. There are portions of the Curragh which would, if they were planted, benefit the users of the Curragh as well as the animals by way of shelter.

At one point on the edge of the Curragh, Kildare County Council services for houses pass close by so that water and sewerage is available. There is an acute shortage of housing in the area. I am aware that the Minister was approached about this some time back and that certain discussions took place but the proposals fell through in a short time. I should like the Minister, when he is replying, to let me know whether the allocation of a small amount of housing around the Maddenstown area would require the extinguishing of further grazing rights or if it would require special legislation. If that were so, I would be very sorry that the necessary legislation was not included in this particular Bill so that it could be used at some future date.

In his speech the Minister stated that when a check was made on the number of sheep on the Curragh at one time, it far exceeded the number permitted. That is the understatement of the year. The effect of the restrictions did not have the desired effect in so far as putting sheep to graze by people who were not entitled to do so was concerned. The trouble was that the bye-laws were quite useless in penalis-ing these people. It is in order to give the Minister power to effect the restrictions that we have this Bill before us today. If the Bill succeeds in doing that and if it protects those who have grazing rights it should receive a warm welcome in this House.

I am sure the Minister has the rights of the people involved very much at heart, but there is one section of the people who have a complete disregard for the property of those on the Curragh. I refer to people in the adjacent areas who keep dogs without keeping them under control. It is not unusual, and it is a horrible sight for those crossing the Curragh, to find sheep which have been savaged and killed by dogs which should not be there and which should be kept under strict control.

Indeed, under the Diseases of Animals Act which went through this House a few years ago, it was pointed out that the method being advocated by the Minister at that time to control dogs would be quite ineffective. Indeed, the passage of time has proved that the dogs are still loose. They are killing sheep, and if they are traced back to where they came from, the people concerned refuse to acknowledge ownership. The sheep-owners are thus at a loss. This is a terrible problem and one which will not be easily solved. It does not appear to be getting the attention which it should of the Department of Agriculture. I hope I have not ranged too far over the Curragh. It is a very big area covering many Departments and should be of interest to many Departments. If this Bill succeeds in bringing about the necessary change in the provisions to enforce the previous Act then we give it a warm welcome.

Mr. Rooney

It seems that this Bill is intended mainly to deal with the sheep grazing rights on the Curragh. Now that we are dealing with this aspect of it, and dealing with the Curragh in general, we ought to consider a few aspects in so far as the Curragh is concerned. Apparently thousands of sheep are grazed every year on land which is very poorly grazed. Apparently it is just the elements and nature which provide the grass on the Curragh for these sheep. Apparently too there are people with vested interests in the Curragh.

Those are States lands. I think I am right in saying in fact that this nation are the caretakers of this land previously held by the British. The State are really the caretakers of those State lands in so far as the early legislation affects us. When we speak about sheep in those modern times let us talk about the traffic hazard involved in the lack of a trunk road between Dublin and Cork and Dublin and Limerick. Thousands of cars pass through the Curragh every day but no attempt has been made to keep the sheep from crossing the road and causing considerable danger to the people using that road.

There is a 60-mile limit all over the country now but there were times when cars travelled across the Curragh nearer the 100-mile-an-hour mark. There is no fencing and sheep can walk back and forth from one side of the road to the other as they like. The time has come for those responsible for the Curragh to organise some kind of fencing arrangement to ensure, though the sheep have full rights both in the middle of the road and on the land of the Curragh, that the traffic is regulated and that sheep do not cross that major trunk road. I know this would involve a lot of fencing and it may involve many organisations as well but we should certainly do something about it.

We are lucky to have such a fine place as the Curragh, a flat spacious plain. The people in Dublin city are fortunate to have the Phoenix Park which is used as a park for various recreations and also for ordinary visitors. The Curragh should be regarded also as a national recreational park. Something should be done so that it can be so used. We all know that Dublin Airport has become very busy and very crowded with planes coming in every minute. There are thousands of planes, not hundreds, coming in and out of Dublin Airport. That traffic includes private planes coming in and out and also helicopters. I feel the time has come when an arrangement should be made to provide an airstrip on the Curragh for the use of private individuals.

I know that at the present time people land private planes on the Curragh, particularly on Derby day when our great national race takes place. People arrive in their own planes before the race and fly away afterwards. There is no level strip of ground for them to land on. Those people have probably been told before they arrive where the most suitable place to bump down on the Curragh is. We can all think of the wide open space on the Curragh which could provide facilities for private planes and for tourists who wish to come here by plane and helicopter. There is a railway line alongside the Curragh which would facilitate those people if they wish to travel into Dublin free of the roads from the Curragh. They could also travel to Limerick or Cork in the same way.

Those are just a few of the points I wanted to make on this Bill. We should not be legislating here to make sheep the queen of the Curragh with the run of the lands and the public road. When we are doing something now about this we ought to bring in some kind of regulation which will enable us to make better use of the Curragh in so far as the nation is concerned. We should make the Curragh available for people who wish to use it for recreational purposes and as a public park. The Curragh could become a national park. I doubt if there is any place in the world with such a large acreage of land which could be used and formed into a national park. We are lucky to have it. I know from the Minister's statement the reasons why this Bill is here before us today but I think when we are dealing with this matter now is the time for us to consider the many other useful purposes to which the wide open spaces of the Curragh could be put.

Mr. Hilliard

The lands of the Curragh, as the House knows, are vested in the Minister for Defence subject to grazing rights held by certain people. Those people are very jealous of their rights. They have those rights by virtue of rights which go back to monastic times in this country. The rights are enshrined in legislation passed in the British Parliament and are continued by legislation passed by the Oireachtas in recent years. I have no authority whatever to create new grazing rights on the Curragh. There is no legislation needed to extinguish rights. They can be extinguished by agreement with the holders of the rights.

Part of the Curragh is used by the Department of Defence as a training ground for military personnel. We have a military establishment on the part of the Curragh known as the Brown Lands on which there are barracks and other military installations. On the Curragh there are rifle ranges used to train our troops. In modern times, with modern vehicles now being used by military personnel, we have many complaints from sheep grazers on the Curragh and from the owners of the rights that these vehicles interfere with the grass and that they are damaging the grazing lands known as the Green Lands. Senator Rooney wishes to have an airstrip on the Curragh to facilitate landing there. If landings were to take place regularly on the land under the control of the Minister for Defence it would be necessary to have regard to the grazing rights for sheep on the Curragh. We agreed to give facilities to the Turf Club, but they did not go ahead with their proposals.

Senator Malone raised the question of house building on the Curragh by the Kildare County Council. I wish to tell the Senator that some years ago the County Council approached the Department of Defence for a two-acre site on the Curragh for the purpose of erecting new, fully-serviced houses. The site was beside Williams Corner. The Department offered to sell the site in 1966. The Council did not proceed with the matter and notified the Department that they were no longer interested.

Mr. Malone

Would the site be available to them again?

Mr. Hilliard

We would try to facilitate the local authority in that regard. We facilitated them with a site for a sewage disposal works. We try to meet any reasonable requests that come to the Department from any local authority or from groups interested in providing services for houses.

Mr. Malone

The services are all there?

Mr. Hilliard

Yes. We realise there is a large acreage on the Curragh. Personally, I would like to be able to assure the House and the public that we could go ahead with a rehabilitation programme for the Curragh. The fact is that the Department of Defence get no return whatever from the grazing of sheep on the Curragh. The owners pay a small amount of money in rates to the local authority. I do not know what the figure is. They also pay a land annuity to the Land Commission which may include an element for the grazing rights attached to their lands. These rights have come down in succession to the people who own the lands now. If one could extinguish the grazing rights completely and take over the Curragh as unencumbered State lands one would not have much trouble in formulating a plan of rehabilitating the lands and then letting them to sheep-owners. It would not be difficult to make full use of the land for the grazing of sheep. I have explained the legal position to the House. I have spoken to some people who have come to see me in relation to the improvement in the lands. If these people propose a scheme whereby they will make contributions themselves in order to improve the land, even in a piecemeal fashion, my Department will facilitate them provided there is no charge on the Exchequer. Senator Malone knows that a former Minister for Finance from his own constituency set up an inter-departmental committee to have the question examined on the basis that there would be no ultimate charge to be borne by the Exchequer. I have explained the situation in regard to the grazing rights as fully as I can. I have explained the difficulties we would have in dealing with a rehabilitation programme on the Curragh. The Racing Board have improved their area immensely. I see that myself as I pass through the Curragh. They extinguished the grazing rights. The Racing Board do not graze sheep on the lands but they use the land in connection with the horse racing industry. They have an income for the lands which perhaps does not cover fully for their expenses.

The owners of grazing rights are not confined to any one particular grazing area in the Curragh. The sheep may roam the full extent of the Curragh grazing area. I have no authority to prevent that. It would be very expensive to erect a fence around the whole Curragh and along the roads intersecting it, similar to the one which has been erected by the Racing Board. The cost of such a fence would be prohibitive.

I cannot give the House any assurance in relation to the dogs. I wish we could find a method of keeping dogs off agricultural land except when they are under the control of the land-owner or some responsible person.

Mr. Malone

Dogs are a terrible problem.

Mr. Hilliard

Dog owners should be more conscious of their civic responsibility in this matter, but there are people who do not live up to their responsibilities in matters of this kind and there is very little that can be done by way of legislation. It would be difficult to control that malpractice which is so common in this country.

Mr. Malone

What about the Department of Agriculture? Have they plantations on the Curragh?

Mr. Hilliard

I do not think they have. I have not gone into this matter but I think any trees planted on the Curragh have been planted by ourselves. The development of tree-planting there was, I think, initially carried out by individual officers at the Curragh who took a personal interest in matters of this kind.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages to-day.