As the Senator has just said, this is rather trying to recall to some degree what had already been said in the earlier part of the Second Reading debate. I have a few notes from that time. Senator Miss Davidson spoke at some length and raised a number of points which the Labour Party would like to have seen included in the Bill. These were also adverted to in the Dáil at an earlier stage. These points were: standardisation of method of determining policy on pay; secondly, empowering the board to define overtime employment and giving the board power to fix weekly hours of work to which minimum rates of pay would apply; thirdly, empowering the board to prescribe schemes which would permit payment for service worked on retraining courses; fourthly, the abolition of the provision by which the chairman of the board constitutes a quorum and in the absence of the other members can make an order prescribing minimum rates of wages; also, improved methods for determining entitlement to certificates of exemption.
Finally, there is a further point which I think was suggested by Senator Miss Davidson, about the recovery of wages from members of trade unions. The Committee which I promised in Dáil Éireann to set up has in fact been set up. The first meeting was held on 30th June. For the present, it is an inter-departmental committee. It includes representatives from the Departments of Agriculture and Fisheries, Labour, Finance, Local Government and Lands, together with the Secretary of the Wages Board. I have passed on these various points to the committee and I have drawn their attention to the points raised by Senator Miss Davidson. The terms of reference of the committee are to examine the legislation relating to wages and holidays of agricultural workers and to report what changes should be made in the light of changing circumstances.
The committee have taken these terms of reference. At their first meeting they have decided to interpret these terms very widely so that the examination may not be restricted. With that background on these matters, the points raised by Senator Miss Davidson are being referred to the committee for their consideration. Another meeting will be held within a matter of a few weeks.
I should perhaps indicate that when the groundwork of the whole situation, as this committee may see it, has been examined it is our intention that further and other interests should then be consulted. The committee, as an inter-departmental committee, are really doing the groundwork in preparation for further and wider discussion embracing other allied interests which are perhaps outside the Government service and are conducted by people who are not already on the committee. It is not for me or anyone else to forecast or prophesy the results which the consultations and examinations may throw up. I would not wish to inhibit the committee or their inquiries. After the committee have straightened things out to their own way of thinking we may see how the mechanism works and where it may be failing or where it may be needed to be renewed or changed. I should not like to feel that we had restricted them in any way. I am glad that at the first meeting the terms of reference were interpreted in the widest possible sense.
Senator McDonald raised a number of points. He asked for a revision of meal allowances for agricultural employees. The Agricultural Wages Board revises the allowances from time to time. They have the power to do so. It is not necessary to provide any further power in this Bill in order to enable the Board to make such revision.
Senator McDonald also raised the matter of the rebate on rates in respect of female workers. That would be more appropriately transferred to the Department of Local Government for their consideration. I propose to transfer this matter to the Minister for Local Government for his consideration. A third point raised by the same Senator was that of income tax concessions in respect of agricultural workers. This is appropriate to the agricultural workers' well-being and conditions and is a matter for consideration by the Department of Finance to whom I propose to pass it for their consideration.
Professor Quinlan resumed the debate on this Bill. On the last occasion and again today he spoke about the conditions and wages of agricultural workers within the narrow limitation of the Bill, but he also spoke on a much wider scale embracing the training and education of those who will work on the land. The Chair was perhaps fairly close on the mark in regard to these matters not being entirely relevant to the Bill and I must tread rather easily here for that reason.
I said in the Dáil that I had a great deal of sympathy with the view that had been expressed in that House in respect of the need for further education and training facilities being made available for the benefit of those who will live by the land in the future. In addition to the agricultural colleges and classes, and the farm schools and manual classes that have been carried on in the vocational schools to the great benefit of the farming community, we have indicated already that farm centres are to be set up in the near future with a view to helping those who live by the land, whether they are farmers, their sons or those who ultimately may be the employees on the farms throughout the country. There has been gradual extension of our colleges throughout the country.
These educational facilities must be extended as quickly as possible. Educational facilities must be improved to try to make agricultural training available as readily to those with an agricultural bent as post-primary education is to those going into other employment. Our farming community are entitled to have this element of education attended to in a specialised sort of way, without going into too much detail at this stage. Specialised education for farming should be more readily available to the farming community. There is a need for greater and wider specialist knowledge being imparted in a really organised way to all people associated with the land.
Post-primary education of a nature suitable to those who are to stay on the land is not on a par with the educational facilities and opportunities offered to those who will go into other walks of life in the future. I am very interested in this and hope we can work in co-operation with the technical colleges which we have throughout the country at the moment. It may be possible to add on to these technical colleges something that will be of practical help to those who come to them from the farms of the country.
Even now, these colleges are of real help and young people go back to their farms with further practical education. In these days of mechanisation we need a very great degree of additional educational facilities in a purely practical way not only for the farmers and their sons but also for the farm workers. They need this practical education to deal with the mechanisation that has developed in this country and is increasing from year to year. There are two gaps in the farmer's educational needs. We need to fill them both if we are to have a satisfactory force, whether they be the owners or the employees of the farm.
If we are to have this in the future I am fully with it that this should and must be done and that it must be done pretty quickly because the draw off that will take place as a result of the opportunities offered by post-primary education in secondary and technical schools may attract to such a degree that we will be even worse off in the future if we do not do something about those who might remain on the land. This makes it urgent that something should be done about those people, apart from the fact that such educational facilities and better techniques which would be learned will be of immense value to them.
There is a competitive element which is growing up and if we do not catch up with this quickly it might do damage to those who remain on the land with the result that not enough of the right people will stay on the land. I am satisfied this is an urgent matter and I am hopeful we can get moving in this direction. We have been taking stock in this regard for some time. I hope we can see some concrete evidence in the not too distant future of something worthwhile being done to fill this void which is now there and whether I am still in Agriculture or not by the time this has been reached it is a matter which requires to be done and once done will pay dividends that will know no bounds in the years ahead.
I doubt if there is much further I wish to say about this particular legislation we have here other than what I said when it was brought in here first. It is to a large degree merely confirming in the law what has been in practice in a great majority of cases in so far as holidays, conditions, hours and so forth are concerned. The vast bulk of farmers are already treating their workers at least as good as we are providing for here. Nevertheless, that does not take away from the necessity to ensure that all of them at least treat their workers as good or as well as we are dictating here. In no way should it be taken as the most they should get. If there are farmers who can afford to give them better hours and conditions, more power to them. We are merely laying down the minimum limits which we feel the law must secure. It is only to a very small minority that this legislation will refer. The vast majority at least practise the conditions we have here and some give better conditions.
One might say "Why do it?" We are doing it because it is being done universally and we feel the small minority should be made to conform with those minimum standards. No doubt this Bill is not the end either, any more than it would be in regard to the conditions of other categories of workers. As times change and as times improve, I have no doubt somebody at a later stage will be coming in with a somewhat similar Bill to make improvements on behalf of and in respect of the agricultural workers of this country. If we are to retain on the land of the country not only the owners, their sons and families to any great degree, but the very necessary agricultural workers, then I feel what we are asking for here is only the bare minimum and that a great deal of further improvement is necessary to keep those people and to make it more attractive for them to remain on the land and not to have more and more taken away by the attraction of other jobs in other walks of life.
Indeed, as I say, this is only one of perhaps a number of such Bills of improvement which may come along. We need this Bill now and that is why it is being brought along. If it appears to fall short in certain respects in regard to some of the ambitions Members of this House might have in regard to conditions of farm workers, all I can say is it is an improvement on what is already there and is not the end of the line by any means. It is merely an instalment which will continue to be added to in the years ahead.
It is in that context that I feel the House should look at this measure and should also look at the background to it and the fact that I have already put into operation, as I promised I would do, a committee who are examining this type of legislation and the regulations which go with it. This committee is not restricted in regard to its terms of reference. It can go further afield. If they feel there is cause and need to go further they are free to do so and if I see there is need to indicate to them a widening of the field of examination I would not hesitate to do so.
