Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jul 1969

Vol. 66 No. 16

Grass Meal (Production) (Amendment) Bill, 1969: Committee and Final Stages.

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Professor Dooge

On section 1, in the absence of the committee system it is necessary for me to carry further the discussion on some points of section 1 which is a section empowering additional capital. I am greateful to the Minister for the information which he has given in his reply. I must express mild regret that the information was not included in the Minister's original statement, and that the information which he gave to us was only given in reply after the specific points were raised. There are a few other points which I would like to raise.

Firstly, I would like to say that it was mentioned by Senator Flanagan, that, the "social aspect of this was being decried". I would like to make it perfectly clear what the issue was which I raised with regard to the social aspect. It was not an attempt to decry the social aspect. It was an appeal to distinction. It was an appeal, not that we should disregard the social aspects of such matters, but, that we should not disguise them. It was an appeal that we should face clearly and distinguish clearly between the economic and social costs.

This is the only realistic thing which can be done. The Minister has given us a statement that there is a 50-50 chance of this being economically viable and on this basis there is no doubt whatsoever, given the circumstances of the Bangor Erris area, that the particular enterprise is one which should be continued. I would like to say that I myself am satisfied that this particular enterprise is fulfilling a valuable social function. I had occasion to visit the Bangor Erris area on a number of occasions in connection with certain investigations and indeed it is quite clear that the work which is being done in that area, the whole work done by the Peatland Research Station there, is of the utmost value both economically and socially.

I should like to ask the Minister what is the form of co-operation at the moment between the board of Min Fhéir Teoranta and An Foras Talúntais. Senator Flanagan has told us that there was a position after the closing down of Min Fhéir Teoranta that many of the leading staff and employees were employed in the work of the Glenamoy Research Station, but quite apart from the initial development I should like to ask the Minister specifically what is the form of co-operation now. Is it a continuous one? Is it merely continual or is it occasional?

Another point on which I should like to ask the Minister is that the Minister said that an allegation has been made that there is a tendency on the part of Min Fhéir Teoranta to dump on the market, and he has stated that it only does what its other competitors are doing, namely unloading its stocks at the end of the year. Is the Minister satisfied that Min Fhéir Teoranta do not start to unload their stocks earlier than anybody else? We must of course have regard to the social aspects of the problems of North Mayo and the Bangor Erris area, but also we must have regard to the whole problem of people who invest their own money in enterprises, and it would be very wrong if we took lightly the question that because of the social benefits in North Mayo people in the other parts of the country should not be protected against what in effect would be the dumping of a product. I should like to ask the Minister is he completely satisfied on that point?

Mr. Colley

Firstly, in regard to the co-operation by the company, the exact details of how this is done and whether it is sufficiently close and satisfactory is one of the matters which I intend to discuss with the board, but I have been assured firstly that the company maintain very close liaison with the Peatland Research Station, and also that the technical personnel of the Department of Agriculture keep in close touch with the company and, as I have mentioned earlier, take samples for the purpose of testing the product; but they do much more than that, I understand, in the way of discussion of the technical aspects of the operations of the company.

Incidentally, I omitted to mention when talking about the value of the operations of this company the expertise which is being accumulated and which in a country with the amount of bogland that we have must be of considerable importance to us in the long term, and not just in the North Mayo area.

In connection with dumping, or alleged dumping, I am told that the company deny absolutely that they dumped grass meal on the market in 1967, as was alleged at one time, or in any other year. It is true that they have occasionally sold substandard meal, as fillers, at less than the market price of good quality meal, but the quantities which they sold were very small indeed and, as I have indicated, all the other producers follow exactly the same course. As evidence that the company are not recklessly dumping their product on the market irrespective of the price is the fact that in most years— I am speaking now offhand, from recollection—they have a carry-over of stock, which seems to indicate they they are not just recklessly dumping it at any price they can get. Consequently, I think that anybody who wishes to establish that this company have been dumping grass meal has an onus placed on him to give details and also to establish that they are not doing simply what everybody else is doing. I am not saying that this onus rests on Senator Dooge, because he is not making the allegation. He is merely putting the question. It is on those who make this allegation outside the House that this obligation lies.

Professor Dooge

Might I carry this a little bit further? We are at a disadvantage, as the Minister will appreciate, in that there has not been a report since 1967 and many of these reports are not very informative. Senator Flanagan mentioned, I think, a price of £26 for the year 1968. An allegation has been made, and I am not making it, but just asking the Minister if he can deal with the matter, that meal which I presume was standard was sold at £21. Is the Minister satisfied that this is incorrect?

Mr. Flanagan

On the figures that I have been supplied with by the managing director, that is not the case. The figures I have are: 1968, net sale price, 26-Counties, £26 11s 1d; net sale price Northern Ireland £26 5s 3d.

Professor Dooge

These figures contrast with the figure of £21 which was mentioned in the other House.

Mr. Rooney

That was from the only figures available. We have no recent figures.

Mr. Colley

I have available to me the average selling price per ton for each of the years ending 31st March, 1965, 1966, 1967 and 1968. If I give those they might be of assistance to the Senator. In the year 1965 it was £27 14s 10d; in 1966 it was £28 9s 8d; in 1967 it was £24 18s 11d and in 1968 £26 18s 2d.

Professor Dooge

I think it was Deputy Keating in the Dáil who mentioned that the company had been selling a product which they found hard to shift at prices of the order of £21. The point is, is the Minister satisfied that that would be unusually shortlived if the figures the Minister has given are correct?

Mr. Colley

I have had assurances on this and I am also satisfied if for no other reason than that the average selling price which I have given would not exist if this were a regular practice.

Professor Dooge

Yes.

Mr. Rooney

On that point, the Minister made some remarks that I want to take up with him. He mentioned that the granting of capital here was most important in view of the large amount of used up bogland that may become available in this country. The Minister mentioned that there was a 50-50 chance of success here of the company making it a viable product. Would he say that there was a 60-40 chance?

Mr. Colley

I do not wish to interrupt the Senator but I think Senator Dooge quoted me and I did not bother to correct him but as Senator Rooney is going into this now I want to say that the actual words I used were "A better than 50-50 chance".

Mr. Rooney

It is not 90 per cent.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

You want jam on it.

Mr. Rooney

Commercial enterprises have to be over 100 per cent. The other thing I want to mention is this. The Minister mentioned the possibility of introducing this grass growing in other boglands in the country. I suppose there is approximately one million acres of Irish land as far as using up bogs is concerned. If we are going to contribute so heavily from the social point of view to this small acreage here it is hard to imagine how this small Irish population could make such a substantial contribution towards growing grass or using up the bog land all over the country when even this small acreage here is causing so much concern and has demonstrated up to the present at any rate that it is not a viable project and that there is no prospect that even this little scheme will make ends meet.

I know the Minister was asked in the Dáil to answer a number of technical questions and he declined to do so. I suppose that is fair enough. However, there is one question I would like to ask him and he may have the information available now. It has been mentioned that there are approximately 26 persons employed. I wonder are they all generals and no privates? Have we a good percentage of manual labour here or is it mainly highly paid technicians and very few manual workers? I mention that because when we are talking about the social value of this project and the matter of paying a week's wages to those engaged in this industry or having those people walking up to the labour exchange for unemployment assistance I would like to know out of this 26 people how many of those, who would otherwise line up at the labour exchange, would be highly technical and highly paid people whose services could be made available in other places where their technical skill and knowledge would be of benefit in whatever project they were associated with?

Mr. Colley

If I might take the last point raised by Senator Rooney first. He said I declined to answer certain technical questions in the Dáil, which was true, because I did not at that time have the information available to me. I have in this House answered those questions I was asked in the Dáil.

In regard to the number of manual workers involved in this I have not got the exact number available but I can tell the House that virtually all of the employees are manual workers and they include categories described as labourers, drivers, charge hand and foreman. I think the Seanad may rest assured that we have not got a number of highly qualified technical people tied up who would otherwise be available in the rest of the country. The bulk of the employment here is of manual workers.

In regard to the question of the amount of bogland we have available in the country I do not think I said, and I certainly did not intend to convey, that it was the intention to develop all our bog land throughout the country for the production of grass meal. What I intended to convey was in this project we have built up a considerable amount of technical expertise in this process of growing crops on bog land. This was all I intended to convey.

Mr. Rooney

I am glad the Minister mentioned that. I think we are lucky in having such a large acreage of this type of land available for crop growing but from our experience I think we should not keep on with the grass growing but should concentrate on vegetable growing because there is a good prospect for it on bogland.

Mr. Flanagan

I might be able to answer one or two of the points raised. One question asked was the amount of local people employed. To my knowledge there were only two people from outside employed. One is the manager and the other man worked in the office but has since died. All those people employed as drivers and so on were local men and they were given positions of responsibility after a time. If they were not employed here they would be on the dole. Since this scheme was initiated it has proved of tremendous benefit in comparatively dry slopes of mountains which did not require this intensive drainage and could, by rotivation, putting on lime and phosphate and then putting in seed, produce crops. On much of this land cattle could not be reared and sheep could only walk with great risk. People could not walk there even 100 yards without wearing wellingtons. This land, after intensive drainage over four to five years, was suitable for grass growing.

I can foresee in the near future that tremendous areas of this ground will be brought into grass production by this scheme. If selected areas are set aside they can be adequately drained and after drying out seed can be sown. The side of some of those mountains, where there is good drainage, can be brought into this scheme by rotivation, lime and phosphate.

Professor Quinlan

I wonder could the Minister give us an idea of what percentage of the Irish grass meal production is supplied by Min Fhéir and has that remained relatively static over the past few years or has it gone up or down?

Mr. Colley

I do not think I have it in the form of a percentage but I have figures of the actual production. The national production in 1960 was 11,729 tons; in 1961 it was 13,677; in 1962 it was 15,242; in 1963 it was 15,480; in 1964 it was 15,223; in 1965 it was 18,084; in 1966 it was 19,059; in 1967 it was 20,250, and in 1968 it was 19,810. They were the national figures. The figures for Min Fhéir Teoranta for the years 1956 to 1968 were under 2,000 tons per annum.

Professor Quinlan

There could be scope for Min Fhéir Teoranta to consider increasing their activities.

Mr. Colley

In the field of grass meal production alone there are the limiting factors such as I mentioned earlier that the market is not as buoyant as it was some years ago, when we used to export to the North. In fact there are still exports to the North but a new grass meal station is likely to be commenced there which, while indicating confidence in the future, will in the short term affect the amount which can be imported. I would not like to say that there is unlimited scope for expansion in pure grass meal, but as I have indicated I hope there will be expansion not necessarily in the form of straighforward grass meal.

Professor Dooge

The Minister did mention in the course of the discussion that he was not completely satisfied with the marketing method being adopted by Min Fhéir Teoranta. I take it this will be one of his concerns when he meets the directors and that this will obviate the suggestion that price cutting is a major marketing technique employed by them.

Mr. Colley

I should hope so.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.