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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 1970

Vol. 68 No. 3

Censorship of Films (Amendment) Bill, 1970: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of this Bill is to give the Film Censor and the Censorship of Films Appeal Board jurisdiction to deal with an application for the re-censoring of a film that has already been the subject of a censorship decision taken before the 18th January, 1965 or more than seven years prior to the date of the application, as the case may be.

A film may not be exhibited in public unless a certificate in respect of it has been issued by the Film Censor. The Censor may grant either a full certificate allowing the general exhibition of the film or a limited certificate allowing the exhibition subject to conditions such as the exclusion of persons under a certain age. An appeal against the Censor's decision lies to the Appeal Board, whose decision is final.

Prior to 1965 it was not the practice to grant limited certificates. For some time before that, however, the film producers had been moving away from the traditional type of film designed for family viewing on to so-called adult films, and it was in the context of that development that the practice of issuing limited certificates was introduced.

The granting of limited certificates has meant that since January, 1965 a number of films have been passed for adult viewing which up to then would have been refused certificates or would have been severely cut. Conversely, it may be assumed that a number of films that were refused certificates before January, 1965, would have qualified for a limited certificate if such a system had been in operation at the time they were submitted. There is, therefore, a very good case, in principle, for altering the present law so that a film that was cut or rejected in, say, 1964 should now be eligible to be reconsidered. The Bill provides accordingly.

The question of films which were rejected or cut before January, 1965 is a specific, non-recurring problem. However, the broader and more permanent question of gradually changing standards must also be considered, just as it had to be considered a couple of years ago in relation to books. On this aspect, the best solution appears to be to allow a fresh application to be made to the Film Censor in respect of any particular film after some specified period. The period specified in the Bill is seven years. I think that that is a reasonable period to select in this particular context.

The House will be aware that, under the Censorship of Publications Act, 1967, a prohibition order made in respect of a book ceases to have effect after 12 years. There are, however, important differences to be borne in mind in deciding on any comparable relaxation in the case of films. A book which has been prohibited on the grounds that it is indecent or obscene may be placed on sale to the public once the ban expires without being resubmitted for censorship—though of course it may be prohibited again if the Board examine it and think it ought to be prohibited.

The position is otherwise with films, since no film may be exhibited in public without a certificate from the Censor. Because of this important difference, we can safely adopt a shorter period for films without any risk that films unacceptable by the current standards of the Censor or the Appeal Board can be put in circulation. Moreover, because of social and fashion changes, and because of technical advances in photography and associated techniques, films become out of date quickly and, once we accept the principle of resubmitting films, the resubmission should be allowed within a reasonably short period of years, as the passage of time could make them commercially useless or nearly so.

Senators will notice that the proposal in the Bill is that the application for reconsideration of a film should be made to the Censor in the first instance and not the Appeal Board and this is so even if the earlier decision was made or endorsed by the Appeal Board. This is the right procedure, in my view, because the application will be based, even if only implicitly, on changes in prevailing attitudes that have occurred in the meantime and not on any suggestion that the earlier decision was unjustified at the time it was made. There is also an important practical reason for dealing with the matter in this way, namely, that the film Censor is a whole-time salaried officer, whereas the Appeal Board is a part-time voluntary Board which ought not to be expected to undertake work that can appropriately be done otherwise. If, in any particular case, the Censor gives a decision unfavourable to the renter, the renter may of course appeal.

In recommending the Bill to the House I should like to emphasise that it is designed to deal with practical issues, taking account first of all of the fact that we have had this change of practice about limited certificates and, secondly, of the fact that standards of what is or is not acceptable on the screen change over a period and the system must allow for that. Indeed, if we do not have some flexibility of this kind, we will inevitably find ourselves in the wholly indefensible position that films that are being shown on television cannot be shown in cinemas because the application for a Film Censor's certificate was made several years earlier and was judged by the standards of the day.

One thing the Bill is not intended to be is some kind of signal for easier censorship than that now prevailing. Neither does it imply that, because a film is restricted to viewers over 18, there can be no justification, ever, for making any cuts in it. Those of you who have some knowledge of the content of certain films produced in recent times will readily agree that the idea of their being shown in cinemas in this country, even for adult viewing, would be unacceptable to the vast majority of the people here. The Censor and the Appeal Board will themselves be well aware that there is no question of the Bill being meant to promote or encourage a drop in standards and the House can be fully assured that, in the independent discharge of their functions, both Censor and Board will continue to do what in their judgment is necessary to protect the public interest.

With that I commend the Bill to the House.

I should like to welcome the Minister to this House in the exact language used by Senator O'Higgins. I welcome him here also as a son of his father who was a friend of mine whom I greatly respected.

This is a Bill entitled an Act to amend and extend the Censorship of Films Acts, 1923 to 1930. I understood this Bill was to be the first item to be dealt with today and feel I have been speaking for hours. After six minutes I'm afraid you will have the same feeling. I have a sense of responsibility about this Bill and wish to treat it in a particular way. It is relevant to the consideration of this Bill to say that it is an amending Bill, amending Censorship of Films Act, 1923. But the legal foundation of censorship here is the Cinematograph Act, 1909, which in its precise terms seemed to concern itself simply with determining the material conditions to be complied with by a licence holder in order to be permitted to show a film in public.

As a result of a series of High Court decisions it was established that other conditions could be attached. Not merely could natural fire be guarded against but hell fire also. Under the Cinematograph Act, 1909 the great difficulty was that the local authorities were the bodies which had the power to give these licences. It was a situation which permitted a film to be shown in Blackrock which could be refused to be shown in O'Connell Street and which allowed a film to be shown in Wexford which could not be shown in Waterford. I am choosing these places to show preference. Certain performances were permitted in some places and not in others. The purpose of the 1923 Act was to centralise this by establishing a central authority for the determination of films suitable to be shown in public in Ireland.

In Ireland we have a tendency to be insecure in our faith and insufficiently to value our traditions. This feeling may come from international criticism of the operation of censorship of books here. Much of that criticism was justified in all too long a period of time. Much that we did in that regard was unwise and involved a lack of sophistication and awareness of the realities of the problems that exist. The Censorship of Films Act, 1923, which we are amending, was not introduced by agricultural "Paddies" who sought to assist the clergy in imposing censorship on the people. This amending was an existing Censorship Act in Britain in 1929. Neither did the idea of censorship suddenly emerge in 1909. It had a very ancient tradition.

The theory behind censorship is as old as Greco-Roman civilisation. There was censorship of a kind recommended then that no one in Ireland today would favour. Plato favoured it 2,400 years ago. Alfred North Whitehead, a great scientist whose Dialogues will be well known to the Leas-Chathaoirleach, regarded as the greatest intellect ever produced in the history of Europe, yet that great intellect was in favour of the absolute prohibition of all drama.

Plato was in Asia Minor rather than in Europe.

I am glad to treat Plato as a European figure. If Senator Horgan would address his remarks to the Chair I would find it easier to deal with them. Plato was in favour of the prohibition of all drama as being dangerous to the morality of the State. Plato thought that the whole purpose was to make people good by educating them. Making people good through education it may be remarked was a fallacy later to be exposed. The early Christian Fathers supported Plato. St. Augustine supported him. Then we have the great figure of Collier in this tradition who attacked Restoration drama which came back with the Stuarts from their sojourn in France influenced by the mores of the time much as Englishmen and Irishmen have since returned from France under similar influences. We have the great Bossuet, a very great man, who thought that all drama should be banned completely because it excited dangerous passions.

They were all supported by the surprising figure of Rousseau who thought that drama was part of the civilisation which was corrupting the natural man. This led to Voltaire remarking of Rousseau that he had become an early Christian Father. All subsequent Platonists are in that tradition and I think it will be found that in relation to their children all parents are Platonists.

Bertrand Russell is a Platonist who would not be in the same tradition.

I shall leave the philosophy of Bertrand Russell to Senator Keery to develop with the skill which I am sure he will bring to bear on it. Ranging on the other side of this, there is, of course, Aristotle and following him, St. Thomas and, surprisingly, Queen Elizabeth I who sponsored the Shakespearean drama in opposition to all advice given to her by the scholars of her day, Sir Philip Sidney being prominent among them.

I suppose the leading opponent of all of censorship of any kind was Milton, and Senator Keery might like to be reminded, through the Chair, that although Milton recommended, in the most extreme terms, liberty of every kind, he went on to make it quite clear that this did not mean that it would be possible "to tolerate popery or open superstition which, as it extirpates all religion and civil supremacies so itself should be extirpated".

Before dealing with the real problem of censorship and art, which is the reason why I am speaking on these lines, I want to deal with the simple matter of pornography. At this moment the law in the United States of America is that one must conform with three requirements before pornography is legally proved. I shall give only the third requirement and that is "that it be utterly without redeeming social value". If it has any redeeming social value then it is not pornography and is permissible.

The position with regard to pornography is that in fact if we go back to the meaning of the word we will find that it is the stock in trade of the oldest profession in the world and the evidence of the professionals on pornography as to the effect of pornography in assisting them in the pursuit of their trade is that it does affect behaviour. In arousing the passions that those ladies are concerned to arouse, they provide evidence which ranges wholly on the side of those who say it is the duty of the State to legislate for the improvement of and to prevent the corruption of man.

This professional evidence confirms a profound Christian insight into the corruptibility of human nature which has always pointed out the solid reality that if we look into our own thoughts and hearts we must realise how difficult it is for any man to live well. I am reminded of Chesterton's quip which went something like this—I may not have the exact wording:

The strange thing about man is that he is made in the image of God. He is the paragon of animals but he is not to be trusted.

The centrality of love, l'amour—this is an interesting point—among the passions, and its protean manifestations in all forms of desire and aversion, is a Christian insight anticipated by Plato but more interestingly confirmed by the scientific research of Freud. In rejecting the Supreme Court of America's view of this, I take the position that the evil of obscenity is a moral principle in which Plato, Aristotle and many others concur with Christianity. How great an effect it has on the human soul is another matter—it is a question of fact to be investigated.

I do not require the result of these investigations to take my position but I am informed that such investigations are being carried out and it is questionable as to the morality of the procedures adopted in ascertaining scientifically the truth of this Christian insight confirmed by the Platonic-Aristotelian tradition. I am dealing with sex only at the moment but it is quite common to hear people say that in their opinion it is much more objectionable to have scenes of violence permitted on the screen. These scenes of violence are seen immediately, in some way, to affect behaviour while erotic scenes are not considered as affecting behaviour.

As well as condemning erotic scenes I condemn scenes of violence, but, in fact, I shall be suggesting to the House that there are grave doubts as to whether cutting either of them can be considered as being the appropriate procedure when dealing with this particular art form. I would be interested if someone who is more attuned to the thought of what I call the Left— I, myself, am described as Left but sometimes I do not know what that means—could throw some light on the curious fact that the Left which is so critical of capitalism in all its manifestations never criticises, as far as I know, this appalling capitalistic institution of producing pornography.

The society in which we live is obviously an extraordinarily transitional one, a period which is practically post-Christian certainly in most of the previously Christianised world. Most of the world have come to accept a kind of philosophy of life which has not been expressed in any terms that one could intellectually accept. It is obviously leading to rejection as is evident in the conduct of the young. The affluent society does not produce the happy society. If we think about this we will realise that is not surprising. It is not specifically a Christian idea that there are higher and lower pleasures. This is not merely a Platonic-Aristotelian feature but is a feature of the stoic and the epicurean philosophy.

The epicureans thought that the object of life was to derive pleasure but one does not derive pleasure by simply seeking out its coarser forms. In fact one of the sayings attributed to Epicurus was "Do not increase but diminish my desires: this is the easiest way for me to achieve pleasure, to be happy"; and then there was the observation of Cicero: "When we withdraw the mind from pleasure and business, we separate the mind from the body and we learn to die". That is really what we are all living to do, learning how to die. It is interesting to note the combination of business and pleasure because, for many, business is a kind of pleasure; it is a kind of distraction from the other things they ought to be thinking about, an escape from themselves.

I am coming now to deal with the question of laws and what sort of laws you can and should have in dealing with this matter. Laws obviously cannot be concerned with preventing sin. Certainly they have been notably unsuccessful in achieving what they set out to do. They could not for example seek to prevent those acts in private which even elephants take care to carry out in private. The laws which in fact are only possible are laws which deal with the aspects of conduct which are predominantly social and are concerned with the common good, that is to say with the peace and prosperity of men and society. But laws that are good laws should seek to create conditions under which morality can develop.

Among those, not the least important is a law which preserves freedom for people from compulsion by others. Recently I went to buy a couple of detective books for a person who was sick. I picked up book after book and the covers were full of the usual stuff of photographs of half-naked women. I said to myself: "This must be wrong. It is an invasion of my privacy. I do not want to see those bloody women so why should I be required to? It seems to me to be that a law creating conditions under which I would not be forced to see those spectacles, that my freedom not to see them would not be interfered with, would be a good law."

Laws must, of course, as the Minister said—this is the effect of what he said—have regard to the level of expectations at any time, must have regard to what the people, for whom they are being enacted, will regard as just and therefore they may vary from time to time. We have here a Christian culture and an inheritance which we should seek to preserve but we must recognise the increasing difficulty we have in preserving it because with the increasing communications we are living in a world which is now furnished like a bawdy house.

I do not find criticism of films as seriously done as it ought to be done. There is an assumption which indicates complete lack of self-confidence, a lack of confidence in our own values, assumptions made which show a weakness in the critics. I want to quote one or two sentences from a psychological writing on the period of adolescence:

The individual may be compared to a violin. Previously the instrument may have seemed to be a cigar box strung with cat-gut. At adolescence it may seem suddenly to become a Stradivarius played on by varying forces. It sometimes responds as if played by a concert master, at other times as if by an untalented amateur. At times it refuses to produce music at all.

The point is not to be lost and that is all the evidence is that the exposure of adolescence to pornography can permanently endanger the whole stability of their psychology and the quality of the life they have to live. It is right to precede this quotation from C.S. Lewis with one from Milton, which is very good. C.S. Lewis says:

Without the aid of training emotions the intellect is powerless against the animal organism.

Milton says in a magnificent passage:

He that can apprehend and consider vice with all her baits and seeming pleasures and yet abstain and yet distinguish and yet prefer that which is truly better he is the true war-faring Christian.

He then goes on with the famous phrase:

I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue unexercised and unbreathed, that never sallies out and sees her adversary but slinks out of the race where that immortal garland is to be run for not without the dust and heat. Assuredly we bring not innocence into the world, we bring purity much rather. That which purifies us is trial and trial is by what is contrary.

Finally, he uses the words:

To sequester out of the world into Atlantic and utopian polities which can never be drawn into use will not mend our condition.

I am sorry to tell the House that I have not actually reached the main theme of my speech. I can see it is fascinating the Minister. Art is intrinsically and primarily good, for a man deprived of the pleasures of the spirit goes over to the pleasures of the body. Art teaches men the pleasures of the spirit. Arts are able to perform the same function for every type of man.

There is an interesting quotation from a debate in this House when the Censorship of Films Act was first enacted, that is an observation made by the father of our present Cathaoirleach when he intervened in the debate. He obviously had not given consideration to the solid fact that the film is a definite art form and a particularly cerebral one. He was drawn into the debate in some way. It is interesting to note he did not oppose the Censorship of Films Act. He thought it irrelevant, unimportant, but somebody made the point about the effect of a bad film on somebody. He said that this is a great problem for an artist.

He described how his friend, James Stephens, had written a book in which he described a man drowning himself and how a body was fished out of the Liffey and in the pocket of the clothing of the drowned man was found a copy of James Stephens's book. He comforted Stephens by saying that Goethe had had a like experience. He too had written a book in which he gave an account of a man drowning himself and again a body was fished out and in the pocket of the clothes worn by that drowned man was Goethe's work. It is a magnificent comment on Goethe and W. B. Yeats for Goethe reconciled himself by thinking of the number of people who had not drowned themselves as a result of reading his book.

Aristotle, if I may be forgiven for referring to him again, spoke of art as having three justifications, first giving a contemplative pleasure, secondly affecting a purgation of emotions which have been raised because they are real emotions and entertainment. Dewey, the American philosopher, adds as a fourth justification for art— and I can see that the Minister is going to give great attention to this—the value of communication and that it effects in fact communication between people, eliminates loneliness, and provides alternatives, as the drama and certain cinema do also, to other baser types of activities.

Shakespearian drama, for example. It is worth reflecting on that you had to come to the time of the modern cinema to have the same sort of numbers of people and the kind of people attending the play that attended Shakespeare's plays in the city of London. At the time Shakespeare's plays were produced there, as far as figures were established the population of London was about 100,000 and it is calculated that 30,000 people a week went to Shakespearian drama and that few of them were able to read. They all went for the joy of the story and the exciting themes which in fact, as we all know, Shakespeare dealt with.

On the question of why censorship? This becomes an immense and difficult problem because the cinema and the drama are arts which generally share the same object, the imitation of human action, and the imitation of human action with modern techniques raises very serious problems in that imitation leads to a further imitation in human conduct. The cinema is a new form of an old problem and a question for prudence to resolve— how prudently that natural thing, liberty, is in fact properly and wisely to be restricted.

Maritain distinguishes moral activity and artistic activity. In saying what I want to say about art I want first to quote from the great historian Lord Acton who said that it was because the fine arts represent all those forces in mankind that it was necessary to undertake the history of mankind to get them into focus. Art is concerned, Maritain says, with all that pertains to making it. What I now want to give is entirely a summary of Maritain's position. It will be long but I think that it is a useful one for the Minister's advisers to consider.

Art resides in the will and is a certain perfection of the soul. It is an inner quality or stable and deep rooted disposition that raises the human subject and his natural powers to a higher degree of vital formation and energy or that makes him possessed of a particular strength of his own. When a master quality has become developed it becomes our most treasured good, our most unbending strength because it is an ennoblement in the very kingdom of human nature."

Then he goes on to talk of the temptation of artists to devote all their powers to their art and in doing so damage their own souls. He comments that Wilde's observation that a man being a poisoner never stopped a man writing good prose, by observing that poison finally finished the prose writer.

On this question of the themes which it is appropriate for the cinema or drama to treat I think it is necessary to say that no theme can be excluded. St. Paul in his great observation—I have forgotten precisely the words— said "let certain things not be so much as mentioned among you" and he then proceeds to mention them all and obviously indicates the themes as being themes suitable for consideration.

Now the whole justification for an artist dealing with a theme is to be found in the Aristotelian idea of purgation, that is to say, that the emotion which is aroused—in fact there is a catharsis, that is a purging, and in this way in fact much evil action is avoided by every theme being treated with very great artistry. But every activity which is bad is not to be imitated, and I am left with the great difficulty in relation to this whole question of censorship, personally, that I take up the position finally myself that the intention of the artist is irrelevant to the consideration of the final work he produces. People who make and attend films which deal with themes may be unfitted in fact to treat and to consider the themes by watching the film because they are unable to avoid conniving at the evil they are depicting or viewing.

I am affected in this sort of view by the remarkable fact that the Minister may be able to give me some information on, but on the information available to me as far as I know there is no great work of cinema, of film, dealing with the appalling consequences of venereal disease. It is only in the last few months that people who were not brought up in the lore available to the children of medical practitioners who learned that Lord Randolph Churchill died of syphilis, and for the last 20 years of his life he was mad and in the most appalling degradation of circumstances. It is curious that while love is treated in the way it is, the consequences of permissiveness, as far as I know, have not been treated at all. Perhaps I am wrong in this. I would like to be told that I was.

But I do not want to just tell you what my difficulty is with regard to the making of a film. My difficulty is this —that we were all brought up to live with the idea of Bowdler as being anathema who bowdlerised Shakespeare and the Bible; and the Bible is very good by the way—"Blessed be the womb that bore thee and the paps that gave thee suck"; "and the Word was made flesh"—not soul be it noted. The true Christian tradition is that the body as well as the soul is recognised as being part in creation and to be respected.

On this matter of making films, as I understand this thing—and I am a man here requiring more information than I have—I have feeling that this is a subject too important to avoid treating despite the kind of dangers to which it exposes myself of being pompous. As to the actual making of films, it consists of cutting, that the director of the film makes a series of sequences and makes very much more film than he ever shows in the film he finally produces. The work of art is to cut the photographs, and the presentation of those photographs, of particular sequences, to cut certain things and leave in certain things. Now that therefore may leave us with the great difficulty intellectually of saying how it can be proper to cut the film which purports to be a work of art and purports because it is a sufficient catharsis, proper to be shown in public, because after all we cannot have a cloistered virtue and people must learn to be aware of the Christian teaching about their own weaknesses and how they can be controlled.

Something which might be considered on Committee Stage is that it should be perhaps open to a censor to say of a certain film that it would be seen generally or seen by a limited audience—presumably a reference to age—or that the film, though a work of art but of degraded art, is not one which in Ireland should be shown publicly. I am not sure that I like to leave in the power of the censor the ability to cut because this, for him, would be more than Bowdler did: he cut our paragraphs but he did not rewrite sentences.

I shall end with the observation that the same grounds which made dramatic poetry the primary object of Plato's concern when he was 20 remained his concern in his eighties. This thought makes the cinema more than anything else the outstanding social and political problem of our day. I made inquiries, but I may have been misled on this or did not pursue them enough and I do not think we get reports on the procedures attached to film censorship. Therefore, there may be a lot to be said for the establishment of a committee of appropriate persons to consider how censorship has worked in Ireland and to continue to review the operation of film censorship. This involves the whole question of pornography, whether it appears in films or otherwise, and the whole question of the wisdom of protection in society. It is, of course, a matter of prudence. We have the generation gap, and conditions are very different in 1970 to what they were in 1923. Therefore I should like to feel that some body of persons, of which I would not wish to be one, would consider this in all its aspects—legal, moral, artistic and otherwise.

I should like to point out that though fascinated by Senator FitzGerald's address, the Bill has to do with re-introducing films which were banned at one time and which are being resubmitted. I hope that subsequent speakers will stick strictly to the Bill. As I have said, I make that observation while wishing to say that I was very interested in Senator FitzGerald's speech and could not find it in my heart to interrupt him.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I trust the Senator is not implying criticism of the Chair.

On the contrary, I am very glad the Chair permitted Senator FitzGerald to continue.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As far as the Chair was concerned, the Senator was speaking on censorship in general and its relationship to art and to morality. To my mind that was very relevant to the present Bill.

Like other Senators, I wish to welcome the new Minister for Justice and to congratuate him on his appointment. I hope it will become apparent towards the end of what I have to say why I particularly welcome his presence as a young man. Having listened to Senator FitzGerald speak, I would be very interested to hear the reaction to Senator FitzGerald should at some future date some citizen of Dublin be dragged from the Liffey with a bound volume of the Seanad speeches of Senator FitzGerald in his pocket.

Before going on to welcome the Bill I should like to draw attention to one of the points made by the Minister in his opening address. He pointed out that prior to 1965 the film censor and the appeal board had not made very great use of their powers to grant limited certificates for the showing of films. I think this new trend by the censor and by the board to grant certificates for films, limited usually by a stipulation of age, is a welcome change. It is, in fact, the main cause for the introduction of the Bill in that obviously films which were screened prior to 1965, when neither the censor nor the appeal board were of a mind to use this power to give a limited certificate, should be open to review. Some of them may be allowed for completely open viewing but I imagine a fair number of films to be resubmitted may get limited certificates. It is to be welcomed that the censor and the appeal board are now working in this way using the full powers they have been given.

The main reason I welcome the Bill is that it will allow films of enduring aesthetic merit, which have not been available for public showing in this country, to be resubmitted to the censor and the appeal board. I think it is worth pointing out that the film, in fact, is an art form. This is something which is very much overlooked in our society. There is a tendency to regard the film as trivial, as just a form of entertainment. In my view the film is now definitely an art form and it is good to think that some works of such directors as Bergman, Resnaio and Bunuel which have not yet been seen here may be cleared for general exhibition if they are submitted by the renters as a result of the passing of this legislation. This is a welcome change.

We cannot, of course, point to specific examples of films of aesthetic merit which may have been rejected, because at present it is not the practice for the censor or the appeal board to reveal the names of rejected films. This is one of the reasons why the Dáil debate on this Bill was unreal and limited. The main reason for the interest in discussion of literary censorship in the past has been because specific works of prominent Irish authors could be pointed to as works which had been banned by the literary censorship board.

Because of existing practice, on this occasion we cannot point to specific films which have been placed before the censor and the appeal board and rejected. An interesting point here, and this relates to part of what Senator FitzGerald had to say, is that aesthetic values have proved to be more enduring, in my view, than moral values.

The Minister has pointed out that there are changes from time to time in the prevailing attitudes of the community and that yet there is no reason to regard the present Bill as allowing any change in the standards exercised by the censor and the appeal board. In our own time the change in moral standards is barely perceptible. The censor and the appeal board, using the new powers given to them under this Bill, will not change their standards tomorrow but in seven or eight years time, when reviewing films which they would reject at present, they may well clear them for public exhibition.

The Irish Film Society and Radio-Telefís Éireann have done exceptionally good work in helping to raise the standards of film appreciation. In this way they have helped to educate the community to understand aesthetic matters. I think the Irish Film Society have had their influence on the film renters in this city. They have gradually educated a sufficiently large section of the community to justify showing what are called art films in small cinemas throughout the city. I believe membership of the Irish Film Society is suffering because so many of the films which in the past would only have been seen by members of that society are now available to the public at large. I hope RTE will continue to show programmes devoted to the techniques of the cinema, linking them up with commentaries showing the development of the film as an art form.

Senator FitzGerald talked about the problem of whether one should regard the erotic or the violent as the more dangerous element in the cinema. When looking at the work of the censor and appeal board we must focus our attention on erotic and violent films. To my mind the Irish censor and appeal board are "hard" on sex and "soft" on violence. I apologise for that jargonned phrase. I can explain what I mean by quoting from a letter printed in the correspondence column of the winter 1966-67 issue of Sight and Sound, the quarterly published by the British Film Institute, about the work of the New Zealand censorship board. The correspondent says:

The Board is capable of very inconsistent decisions. "The Knack" was banned by the censor, the distributor referred the film to the appeals board which passed the film without cuts, after an argument on the effect of removing the rape scene. Conversely the censor passed, subject to excisions, Wyler's "The Collector", but the appeals board banned the film entirely.

That is interesting because we are able to refer to specific examples here. We have not seen "The Knack" but we have seen "The Collector". "The Collector" is a film about a homicidal maniac who collects girls as one collects butterflies. "The Knack" is a film dealing with a sexual matter in a lighthearted sort of way. But even though "The Collector" was on general view "The Knack" was not even shown to limited audiences. The treatment accorded to "The Knack" may possibly be part of what John Mortimer, the playwright, has described as the tendency of any censor to induce political and social conformity.

The censor and appeal board seem to be particularly hard on films involving Irish actors or films set in an Irish setting because, I imagine, they feel those films may have a greater impact on the community. I can appreciate why they do this but I think they are in a sense exceeding their brief which is simply to deal with matters of indecency and morality.

Returning to the "hard" on sex and "soft" on violence aspect, this is very important, in my view, because research has shown—and I am happy to tell Senator FitzGerald that considerable research is being done on the effects of films on the community— that films have an impact on people who are pathologically disturbed in some way. In the Daily Telegraph of Tuesday, 19th May, 1970, there was a report of a new research study on television. It stated:

This survey states emphatically that violence and sex on television do not cause juvenile delinquency. But it admits that in a small number of cases, among pathological youngsters, it might be a contributory factor in their leaning towards crime.

I am particularly concerned about this finding, because I was disturbed by some other facts recently revealed in the first report of our Medico-Social Research Board. This report showed that the number of patients admitted to psychiatric hospitals in this country per 1,000 of the population is twice as high as it is in England and Wales. This is a matter of concern as it indicates that we may have a larger proportion of people susceptible to the influence of films and television in our community than is common elsewhere.

I suggest that here also the community's views of sex and violence are extremely important because sexual matters, as Senators know, play a very great part in the causes of mental illness. It is particularly tragic for young people to grow up with an impression of sex associated with a spirit of cruelty or a lack of tenderness and love; yet, I think, when reviewing films, the censor and the appeal board perhaps tend to dismiss sexual content of any kind regardless of whether it is associated with tenderness and love between people. I hope I have made my point clear. When a film viewed as a unit puts sexuality in a proper constructive human context, that is something which one should view more sympathetically than sex placed in a completely different atmosphere, an atmosphere of deception or an atmosphere in which there is obviously no proper love relationship between the characters concerned. I would ask that the censor and the appeal board when viewing films will bear these factors in mind.

In the same way, I would suggest that when viewing films they should make a clear distinction between films in which violence appears simply for its own sake and where it is portrayed as the crass stupidity which it is. Through softness on violence we often see too much gratuitous violence alongside violence placed in its proper context, as something alien and harmful in any society.

At this time in our community, and particularly because of some aspects of the community to which I have referred, there is great need for full and frank discussion of the general standards used by the censor and the appeal board. I would not go as far as Senator Alexis FitzGerald. I would not feel it was necessary to have a statutory body to do this type of work. One example I can use to justify the need for this discussion appeared in Orbit, a special newspaper produced on Communications Day and published on 10th May by the Catholic Communications Institution of Ireland. I understand this was available at every church gate in the country. Michael Henry wrote:

The Government is obviously not acting. The ordinary citizen gets more confused. Somebody must have made a decision to allow the current crop of eroticism to erupt in this country. Who made this decision? Did he make it in the nation's name?

I suggest that Henry should have known that any decisions regarding either publications or films in this country rested with statutory bodies approved by both Houses of the Oireachtas. In this way it was the people themselves who institutionalised their values in the censor and the censorship appeal board. The asking of such questions, however, underlines the importance of getting across to the community at large what exactly the censor does and what the appeal board do, and the values and criteria which they use in their work.

I would suggest that if we are to have this type of discussion we are somewhat handicapped by not being able to refer to specific films as examples. In asking for this type of discussion and understanding, I suggest to the public and the censorship authorities that when they are disturbed by either erotic or violent content in films they should pay due attention to the context in which this content arrives and that they should try to view films as complete units. Because of the technical matters to which Senator Alexis FitzGerald referred, it is particularly important to understand this request. As the Senator pointed out, the very impact of contemporary films depends on the cutting between scenes. Their effect often is also a purely visual one—dialogue has ceased to be important.

These technical facts make it extremely difficult for a censor or an appeal board to make cuts in contemporary films which do not disturb their artistic unity, or their intelligibility to the average audience. I would certainly suggest that so far as possible the censor and the appeal board should make films completely available to the public on a limited certificate basis rather than cut them in a way which deprives them of any value.

In asking for a debate on these matters I am particularly sensitive to the problems of protecting children from harmful material in the cinema. This is where I want to refer to age. For the reasons I have referred to, films may be particularly harmful to children and young people. In this context I welcome the fact that the censor is a medical doctor and that on the appeal board we find a teacher and a housewife. I appreciate that the Minister could not give me the ages of the censor or the personnel on the board, but if at any future date he has an opportunity to review the membership of the board I suggest that he ought to appoint a fair number of young people to the board. They would be in touch with the problems of children. The Minister might also consider the appointment of a child-psychologist as one of the members of the appeal board.

It might help in the general debate on censorship if the censor and members of the appeal board came out in the open to discuss their work frankly and freely and to deal with specific decisions they make. There have been very valuable experiments of this kind in Britain where the censor met film critics from the national newspapers and showed them some of the material he had cut from films. Many of these hardbitten journalists decided the censor had been justified in making the decisions he did and their understanding of the cinema's difficulties was considerably increased. This approach could be used with effect here.

I do not think we can have reasonable discussion of these matters without being able to refer to specific examples. I had written to the Minister's predecessor about this and the Minister will have the correspondence but has probably not had an opportunity of studying it. I would ask the Minister to reconsider this so that if a film is banned by the censor or the appeal board the titles could be published in Irish Oifigiúil just as the titles of banned books are.

The relationship between the renter, the censor and the appeals board is at present given the confidentiality of an ordinary transaction between a member of the public and a Government Department. May I suggest that the relationship between the renter, the censor and appeals board is, perhaps, better compared to a hearing before a coroner or a court. The findings of such hearings are generally open to publication as matters of judgment of public interest and importance. The decisions of the censor and appeals board are judgments of equal interest and importance.

I am sorry for having spoken at such length on this Bill but it is a matter which has been of considerable interest to me and, like Senator FitzGerald, I was anxious that the Bill should have the type of debate which circumstances did not permit it to have in the other House.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have now reached the hour for adjournment.

Are there any other speakers?

I do not think there is any point in continuing because we do not propose agreeing to all Stages this evening. However, if the Minister would prefer to reply to the debate this evening, I would have no objection but I need time to think about Committee Stage.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

What is the wish of the House in regard to Second Stage debate?

Since Senator O'Higgins is not prepared to agree to all Stages this evening, there is no point in continuing.

Debate adjourned.
The Seanad adjourned at 10.5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 27th May, 1970.
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