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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Jun 1971

Vol. 70 No. 6

Liver Fluke in Cattle and Sheep: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann urges the Government to take immediate steps to eradicate liver fluke in cattle and sheep which is causing untold damage to the agricultural industry and the economy as a whole.

We are all aware of the complaints that come from the meat packers and the butchers of the high percentage of diseased livers they find in our livestock. As evidence of that, you can see sometimes advertisements in the local papers from the meat factories offering as much as £1.50 per beast if the livers are disease-free. We know that the Department have been thinking about this for a long time but they have been very inactive.

I have a leaflet here issued by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries dated October, 1965. It states:

The liver fluke parasite causes big economic losses each year. Many sheep die, cattle and sheep lose condition, milk yields are greatly reduced, livers are condemned. Ox livers worth over £300,000 are condemned.

These losses can be greatly reduced. If ox livers worth £300,000 in 1965 were condemned we can take it they would be worth at least one-third more in 1971. Therefore, I would urge on the Minister, through his Department, to help to encourage the farmers to try to eradicate this snail that breeds the fluke worm parasite. The Department know all about it, they have the leaflets, but the people down the country do not take any notice of it because it is not pressed home upon them. If we could do this and try and eradicate some of the disease throughout the country the Minister and his Department would be doing a great day's work.

We have an idea from the figures we get from factories and the like of the amount of money which is being lost through not having disease-free livers, but nobody has any idea of the amount of money that is lost to the agricultural community and to the industry as a whole by the loss in milk yields and the deaths of cattle and sheep throughout the country. I am sure the Minister, being a practical farmer himself, when he considers some of the remarks I have been making, will see that there is an enormous amount of money being lost annually through this parasite which is the cause of liver disease.

I should like to impress on Seanad Éireann the necessity for accepting the motion in the names of Senator Prendergast, Senator Farrelly and myself. Many people in cities and in towns may not be aware of the ravages that fluke can cause in cattle and sheep. As Senator Farrelly has pointed out, the Department of Agriculture six years ago printed a pamphlet telling the people, the farmers, the story of the fluke and its ravages. They printed a press release which I have here, and this in its opening lines tells the story possibly in a better way than any farmer could tell it. The opening paragraph is:

The losses caused by liver fluke in cattle and sheep in this country have been estimated at approximately £10 million a year. Most of this is borne directly by the farmer as a result of deaths, abortions, loss of milk, loss of condition and loss of thrive arising from fluke infestation.

Most of this is borne directly by the farmer. Many urbanised and city-bred people might say, looking at statistics published from time to time, that the farmer is getting more than his share of the cake. But if in the past few years the Government and the Department of Agriculture have been taking steps to eradicate TB infestation, brucellosis and other diseases in cattle, this was not done solely for the farmer. It was done to ensure that not only the economy of the country would benefit but that our marketable yields in beef and other agricultural products would be of a high standard and would command a high price in the markets of the world.

If the Department of Agriculture found it necessary for the economy, for the benefit of our farming community and the people in general, to eradicate TB and brucellosis, I maintain that they should find it necessary to eradicate the fluke disease in cattle and sheep. Is this something that cannot be done? Many years ago in the farming areas of the west, when the advisory services were not up to the standard of today, you had the local agricultural adviser telling farmers to spray the wet patches in the land with bluestone. Many farmers did this. They did not know why because they were not aware of the life cycle of this fluke worm, but they did it because they knew that by spraying the wet patches with bluestone they eradicated the snail and, if the snail were eradicated, the life cycle of the fluke worm would be completely interfered with: it would have no force to carry on from one cycle to another and consequently it would die out. This would mean that the fluke disease, as we call it, would die out also.

To illustrate the point I am making, I will ask the Seanad to consider the life cycle of this fluke worm. The Minister knows all about this because he is a practical farmer. What I wish to impress upon the Seanad is the absolute necessity for action to be taken by the Government to eradicate the disease.

The figure of £10 million per year of loss as set out in the press release of the Department of Agriculture circular 120/68, could, I believe, be multiplied by two because prices of farm stock have gone up in the meantime and many things not taken into consideration in this circular could also be taken into account, such as the losses of wool from the sheep infected with fluke, the time involved by the farmer weeding out and in many cases burying the dead sheep. I say this to illustrate my point.

Sheep are mainly affected by the acute form of the disease. This is stated in the circular issued by the Department of Agriculture. Fluke affects cattle, horses, donkeys and pigs. Rabbits can spread the disease and it can also affect humans. I do not know if this has happened in this country, but I read where it did affect humans in America. However, this is a rare occurrence. In the chronic form of liver fluke disease, the affected sheep may show no evidence of illness. They gradually lose condition and become anaemic. These symptoms appear in the membranes of the gums and the eyes, which become pale in colour. The wool becomes dry and easily pulled out. In the very acute form of the disease the sheep is often found dead. In less acute cases, the sheep is dull and does not eat. Cattle affected by the chronic fluke disease do not thrive or put on weight, their coats lose lustre and the appetite is poor. There are other signs about which I will not speak now. Emaciation and death may follow. Milk yields are reduced and are sometimes halved. The acute disease is not common in cattle, but very heavy infestations of young fluke may cause sudden death.

Now, you have the picture with regard to cattle and sheep, and at this point the Seanad may be asking can any action be taken by the Department of Agriculture to eradicate the disease. It must be clear to everybody listening to me that this pest must be eradicated if we are to have thriving herds of cattle and sheep. We know that of all the agricultural products that will mean something in the coming years in the EEC our cattle will be one of the mainstays of our economy. We in the Seanad should urge the Government to do everything possible to encourage the growth of our agricultural industry as far as the export of beef, mutton and other such products are concerned. That is the reason we are here today advocating that the Government take action. I will not say immediate action because this would not really remedy this problem. We must look at it with foresight. We wish to see a situation arising where we will gradually eradicate the disease by the means the Department of Agriculture consider best.

In order to illustrate the fact that this fluke pest can be eradicated by various methods I will give you a few more facts relating to the life cycle of this fluke worm. I quote from the Department leaflet:

The liver fluke, called fasciola hepatica is a flat parasitic worm, shaped like a leaf and greyish in colour. It is about 1¼ inches long and ½ inch broad. It can easily be seen on affected livers.

Apropros of that, anybody who has ordered liver in a hotel at some time or another must have looked askance at what should be a beautiful dark brown colour having patches of grey and white in it, and must have been perturbed to hear a grinding or grating sound when it is put in the mouth. This is proof that the liver was infected with fluke. I do not wish to interfere with the digestion of any Seanadóirí but, just to illustrate the point, let me give some more information about the parasite.

The fluke worm does not increase in numbers inside affected animals but lays its eggs which are passed in the manure. They hatch out in the grass if the temperature is right, about 10 degrees ceiling. Eggs can survive in the grass throughout the winter. A tiny immature fluke hatches out. It will die unless it passes through the tiny mud snail, and that is why I am telling the Seanad about the eradication of the mud snail. Limnia trunculata is the name of this beautiful little snail. Unless it passes through the tiny mud snail within 24 hours, it dies and this is a vital point in controlling the disease. Within the snail it grows and multiplies for six weeks, and longer.

This results in hundreds of immature fluke which later leave the snail and attach themselves to the blades of grass. They can survive like this on grass for several weeks in summer, and several months in winter. When eaten by cattle or sheep they reach the bowel. They burrow through the bowel wall and reach the liver. This can happen within 48 hours of being eaten on the grass. This is the most dangerous time for the animals, and large numbers of these parasites entering together can cause the death of animals from acute fluke disease. About six weeks later the fluke worms enter the bile ducts, they feed on bile and blood and cause chronic fluke disease and anaemia. They are fully grown in 8-11 weeks and start laying eggs at the rate of up to 20,000 daily. Fluke usually live about nine months before being passed out by the animal but sometimes they live as long as the affected animal.

This tiny mud snail is the vital link in the fluke's fight for survival. As the name suggests, the snail needs wet land or it dies. It thrives in poorly drained land, shallow boundary ditches or even in deep, wet tractor marks, and near patches of shallow stagnant water. Choked or broken drains and blocked streams provide ideal areas for them. Without wet patches without stagnant water and waterlogged and choked drains, the mud snail could not survive. Without the snail the life cycle of the fluke would be broken and we would not have the problem at all.

This brings me to two factors. I know that the Minister can claim that he has not the overall responsibility for arterial drainage, or indeed for drainage at all except in small farm works. However, I wish to point out to the Seanad that the fact that you have waterlogged land is, first and foremost, one of the things that must come to your mind. If you are to eradicate fluke, the first objective is drainage. If because of money shortages and other reasons drainage cannot be carried out, there are still methods by which this pest can be attacked. Cattle and sheep can be fenced off from wet lands at the time of year in which infestation takes place. To do this, the farmer has to accept losses, because he may have to put his cattle and sheep into land that is not able to carry them in grass. He may have to utilise other foods for them.

Again, he can dose the cattle as a preventative measure and as a curative measure, but this is very expensive and the drugs used today to control the infestation are very expensive. For that reason it is beyond the power of the farmers themselves to deal with this problem.

I would bore the Seanad by giving other facts relating to it, telling about what farmers have been doing, telling about the various types of preparations that are on the market for the control of the disease. However, I have said enough to illustrate the necessity for dealing with this at Departmental level. For the reasons I have pointed out, farmers themselves do not find it possible to use the drugs. An individual farmer is possibly unable to recognise the fact that he has on his hands flukey sheep and cattle until the disease has advanced.

The Minister knows, and everybody here who knows farmers will agree with me that a farmer says: "Well, if we have not something, we will not go looking for it." He feels that if he uses preventative measures, he is inviting the disease—that the disease may come due to the fact that he went looking for it. Urbanised people may smile at that, but I know farmers and I know their attitude to it.

For the reasons that I have stated, the Department should at once embark on some method and have some policy for the eradication of this disease which is causing untold hardship and untold loss to the farming community and to the economy as a whole.

I should like to make a few comments on this question of liver fluke. I do not quite agree with all that has been said in regard to the financial losses which are suffered by our farmers through the ravages of liver fluke. In areas where there are low-lying marshy lands where this mud snail can live, there may be a certain incidence of the disease. As far as I can find out, there has been a great advance in the treatment of this disease during the last five years and particularly since the publication of the leaflet from which Senator Lyons quoted. Farmers have taken up the treatment of liver fluke infection and have also sprayed low-lying land. I do not think that we should parade liver fluke disease as being a national animal hazard on a level with, say, bovine tuberculosis, or contagious abortion, or brucellosis abortis, as it is known.

In the case of contagious abortion we have quite a serious amount of it within the dairying areas. It is something which is inhibiting the export of our cattle—our live cattle, in particular. It also can be catastrophic for the farmer on whose farm there is an outbreak of this disease and it can, indeed, affect the human who is attending to an infected animal or one that is a carrier. It can also affect the human who actually drinks the milk unless it is pasteurised. If we place liver fluke infestation on a par with a disease of this nature, we are not being wise in our approach to the whole question. The Department are, undoubtedly, doing what they can and are making a brave attempt to eradicate contagious abortion.

I submit that the money must be spent on that. Therefore, in regard to liver fluke, it must be left to the intelligent farmers, of whom we have many, to make use of all the available sources of information set up by the Department. The Veterinary Research Laboratory has a forecasting service which advises farmers that if they dose and spray their lands on particular dates during the year they will eliminate the mud snail and if they dose their animals during the periods when the infestation is at its highest they will control the ravages of liver fluke very effectively.

From speaking to butchers and abattoir managers it seems to me that there is a great decline in the damage by liver fluke since the leaflet quoted by Senator Lyons was published. Senator Lyons gave a run-down on the life cycle of liver fluke and on the controls which farmers can and must take by way of normal natural precautions to control the depredations of liver fluke. This is good farming practice which any good farmer must do.

From the inquiries I have made, these drugs are not very expensive. It costs from 15p to 20p to administer a dose to one six cwt. beast which will effectively control liver fluke infection in the animal. This is not a large amount of money and any farmer who owns a few acres of land would be able to raise to the price.

The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries have set up a forecasting service in the Veterinary Research Laboratory which is available for every farmer. I often wonder if farmers read the advertisements in newspapers as much as they should and if they see the advertisements which this forecasting service puts on from time to time. It seems to be becoming more widely known because the incidence of damaged liver due to liver fluke is on the decline. It seems, therefore, that farmers are taking the precautions they ought to be taking.

Fencing of low-lying land and the removal of cattle from low-lying land is another preventive which every good farmer must take. Senator Lyons mentioned drainage of low-lying land. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries have a land reclamation scheme in operation which encourages farmers to drain such land. If this is fully availed of by farmers the incidence of the disease can be controlled on farms where the land has been drained. Farmers will have more productive land as a result of draining it.

There is a study group in existence to make a study of liver fluke. This study group are composed of veterinary surgeons, one or two people from the Agricultural Institute and a few people from the universities. They are experts in the field. A special laboratory has been set up in the Agricultural Institute which deals specifically with research into the whole question of liver fluke infestation. There is a research chemist fully employed on this. He is making whatever information he is gleaning available to the study group who in their turn disseminate the information throughout the country to all those farmers who are in need of it. This has the financial support of the Department and I understand that a chemical manufacturer has made a grant available towards this research. All the work which is being done by the Department is a fair indication of the interest which they have in the eradication of liver fluke.

I have already referred to the question of animal health. I am seriously suggesting that we must get our priorities right in this. One of the most important aspects of animal health is the contagious abortion disease which must be eradicated. Money must be spent on the eradication of this so that we will be able to avail of any export opportunities which are offered to us now or later on and that our animal health will not be the cause of having to reject any of these markets. Even though there is a lot of information available for farmers in regard to infestation by liver fluke, it is likely that there are still those among us who may not be fully aware of all the help and means that are available to control this parasite.

There is another parasite which affects our cattle and that is the stomach worm. It is taken in in a similar way to the liver fluke parasite. The stomach worm thrives in all kinds of ground conditions. It thrives on dry land and wet land whereas liver fluke will thrive only on the wet, marshy land. This stomach worm parasite, and I am supported in my view by a few veterinary surgeons I have been speaking to, causes considerably more damage and financial loss to farmers than the liver fluke does because it has more chance of thriving than the liver fluke. As Senator Lyons has pointed out, the liver fluke must pass through the mud snail if it is to survive its life cycle. The other parasite does not.

I think it is unwise to deal with liver fluke in the way in which we are dealing with it. I should like to finish by saying that it is quite likely many farmers may not be fully aware of all the services and all the drugs, medicines and chemical sprays that are available to them to control the liver fluke parasite. Normal good farming practice demands that these must be used. It would be a help if, say, in September, the Department advertised these services on television or radio. It would get across to the farmer that this is the right time of the year to dose their cattle, to spray their fields and to remove their cattle from the wet land. On Tuesday nights there is a programme on television devoted to agriculture. If the study group on liver fluke could appear on that programme in September it could be brought to the attention of the farmers throughout the country.

I should like to congratulate those who moved this motion. By it they have brought to the notice of the House and the public the damage this disease is causing. Like the previous speaker, I cannot agree that the Department are doing very little to eradicate this disease. The Department of Agriculture have gone a long way towards pointing out to the farmer the seriousness of this disease and the means to be used for the eradication of it. In 1967 the Minister for Agriculture set up an advisory group to examine the causes of this disease and to establish how soon it could be eradicated. On that advisory group there were members of the Veterinary Association and of An Foras Talúntais as well as officials of the Department. I understand that they adopted a short-term and long-term policy. In the short-term policy they are attempting to find a cure for the disease while in the long-term policy they will make an effort to eradicate this disease altogether.

Our committees of agriculture have, time and time again, warned farmers about this disease. I feel that we farmers are not taking this warning as seriously as it should be taken. Most farmers, particularly in my part of the country, which consists of rather dry land, did not know what fluke was until a few years ago. However, fluke has appeared in that part of the country in recent years and the farmers have been warned to dose their cattle during winter time. However, they do not heed this warning. Instead, they wait until the beast starts to pine away and then they consider dosing the animal. By that time very serious harm has been done. Farmers have been told that, if they wish to find out whether this disease exists among their cattle, they can easily do so by sending a sample of manure to the laboratory. Very few farmers seem to take the trouble to do so.

I do not want to give the impression that the farmer is entirely to blame. Admittedly, the farmer is careless so far as this disease is concerned. However, this carelessness may be caused by lack of knowledge about the disease until recent years. It is very easy for people to say that the Department should do more. I have already said that I consider the Department have done a great deal in this regard. They may be able to do more by advertising and by requesting their officials in the bovine TB section, when they visit farmers in connection with that disease, to ask the farmer if he has dosed his cattle against fluke, and if he has not done so to advise him to do so. Those officials could be of great help in that way.

Somebody mentioned the expenditure involved in the buying of the required drugs. I agree that the drugs used are expensive but the price of cattle has increased quite substantially. A drug, which might cost 5s per head, may appear to be costly if a farmer has 100 cattle or so but, at the same time, it is 5s well spent in order to preserve the health of a beast. Some Members suggested the spraying of land. This would be an excellent idea in marshy lands which harbour snails. It would help if that type of land could be sprayed to eradicate the snail without doing harm to the grasses.

In conclusion, I should like to repeat that I welcome this debate. It is not the type of debate on which one can say much. We are all aware that this disease has cost the country close on £10 million, which is quite a substantial sum of money. However, I feel that in time the Department will be successful in the eradication of this disease. As Senator O'Callaghan has said, we also have the curse of the stomach worm which is causing an equal amount of damage. There is also the problem of the prevalence of hoose in cattle, particularly in calves and younger cattle. Calves frequently develop this disease which remains with them for the rest of their lives. It causes as much ill-health in cattle as liver fluke does.

Very little remains to be said with regard to this problem of fluke disease in our livestock. However, I should like to make a few brief comments on this problem. Great efforts have been made over the years to eradicate the disease. While the disease may not have been completely wiped out, losses as a result of liver fluke are minimal today because of the widespread use of antibiotics and other aids introduced to ensure the health of the beast.

Though farmers are conscious of the need to treat cattle suffering from this disease, every effort must be made by the various organisations associated with agriculture to wipe it out completely. Greater co-operation, in my opinion, is needed between the Department of Agriculture's veterinary section and land project section, the Office of Public Works and the local authorities. In one way or other, these bodies are all engaged in the improvement and drainage of our lands. Through the co-operation of those bodies we can ensure the complete elimination of marshy fields and so forth. Spraying has been mentioned as another valuable means of eliminating the disease. This has been done in many areas and farmers have found it profitable to use sprays.

Not enough effort has been made to impress upon the farmer the losses which are suffered as a result of infected livers. The losses, particularly in sheep, can amount to millions of pounds each year. In recent times in the midlands people engaged in the butcher trade have told me they have observed a great improvement in the quality of the livers in the animals which they slaughter. There was a time when almost all livers were rejected, but that situation has improved enormously today. This situation has been brought about by the widespread use of the aids which are at the disposal of the farming community.

However, we are reaching a stage now where our cattle may become immune to treatment for liver fluke. We must ask ourselves if we have gone too far in the use of antibotics. The treatment of animals for stomach worms, liver fluke and so on is regarded today as part of the farmer's everyday life because it is in his own interest to do so. He knows that he cannot afford losses among his cattle. We all know that if a farmer loses a valuable beast today he has no redress. It is a loss which he cannot recoup by any other method. Therefore, the farmers are fully conscious of the need to wipe out the disease. They are conscious of the need to treat their animals.

We should bear in mind that, while the disease exists today, it is not a serious disease. In 1924, there was an epidemic, to put it mildly. The disease was common at that time among all cattle. The farmer in 1971 is more prosperous than the farmer in 1924. Many aids have been placed at the disposal of the farmers through the Department of Agriculture.

The Minister for Agriculture will be consoled by the fact that every aid to agriculture and to the farming community has been fully availed of. As time goes on, the farmers in their own interests and those of the nation will avail of every benefit at their disposal to eradicate both liver fluke and hoose worms in our livestock.

I should like to say, first of all, that I do not believe there is any great divergence of opinion between the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the speakers who have contributed to this debate, or between the Department and farmers generally on the importance of the subject matter of this debate. All agree that the elimination of liver fluke in cattle and other livestock is obviously very desirable and that our failure to eliminate it costs farmers a great deal of money.

It is my opinion, as Senator O'Callaghan said, that it is primarily a matter of stock husbandry. Both he and Senator W. Ryan referred to other parasitic diseases that beset livestock such as stomach worms and hoose. It is primarily for the farmer himself to ensure that his stock is kept free from infestation of this kind. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the local committees of agriculture throughout the country do a great deal of useful work in the matter of dissemination of information about these various parasites.

Senator Lyons seemed to be wondering whether a national campaign against liver fluke on the lines of the tuberculosis or brucellosis eradication schemes might not be undertaken. On this subject there are a number of points that occur to one. With regard to brucellosis and tuberculosis, each of these diseases is directly transmittable to humans; they are a direct hazard to human health. For that reason, as well as the direct danger to the animal itself if it was affected by brucellosis or bovine tuberculosis, it was absolutely necessary to undertake national schemes of eradication.

The eradication of liver fluke, as Senator Lyons pointed out, is quite a different matter. As the Senator very learnedly pointed out, the life cycle of the liver fluke is rather complicated and requires the participation of an intermediate host, whose name I am endeavouring frantically to recall—limnia trunculata, the snail. This indicates that it is necessary to attack the liver fluke on two fronts. The existence of the liver fluke in the animal must be attacked by the direct dosing of the animal. The animal must not be exposed to the places, such as wet areas of pasture land, where he could pick up the fluke and where he could reinfect himself.

The main problems in the eradication of liver fluke are those of recognition, diagnosis and dissemination of the necessary knowledge among stock owners. It is essential to have the knowledge to recognise dangerous areas and, if possible, the snail which is the direct link in the life cycle of the liver fluke. It is necessary to avail-of the assistance provided by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in dealing with both the infected animal and the infected land. It is well to recall what the Department have done in the matter of assisting farmers in the matter of combating liver fluke.

Senator O'Callaghan referred to the advisory group that were set up by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in 1967 to suggest better immediate and long-term measures for the control of liver fluke. This advisory group have been working steadily ever since and have accumulated a large body of very useful information which is being disseminated through a great many channels.

In addition to the Central Veterinary Laboratory and four regional laboratories, facilities to diagnose the disease have been provided at seven district offices. Four more of these offices are planned. A fluke forecast system has been established each year so that the dosing of the animals and the treatment of infected pasture can be carried out at the correct times. These forecasts and information on the correct times for dosing are disseminated through the farming community by various means. The constant dissemination of information through films and lectures throughout the country is carried on. Trials of new fluke drugs are also conducted.

There have been extensive trials of the new molluscicides for killing snails. The principal areas where these new molluscicides have been on trial are Mayo, Carlow, Cork, Louth, Meath, Cavan and Monaghan. Surveys of farms, as requested, are carried out in order to check out danger spots and advise on measures to take. I think that any farmer who has a fluke problem and who discusses this with his CAO will be able to arrange for a special examination to be carried out and recommendations to be made as to the manner in which he might tackle his problem. Needless to say there is close co-operation at all times between the veterinary profession and the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in this.

Reference was made by one or two speakers about the cost of the drugs that are required to treat the animals in the case of farmers who find themselves with a fluke problems in their livestock. The cost of an examination for a dung sample is 2s but it is not necessary that all the animals in the herd be tested in this way. In a herd of 50 or 60 or even 100 animals it would be sufficient to get dung samples from a half a dozens or so in order to get a representative sample to determine the presence or absence of the fluke eggs in the animal. But only 15,000 dung samples were so tested last year and this is very small when we have regard to the large and increasing size of our cattle herd, and the size of our sheep flock as well.

Where trials are being carried out there is no such charge that I am aware of. I have a note concerning a ten acre farm carrying about 60 beef cattle and 50 ewes. This is an estimate prepared by a commercial company engaged in the production of anti-fluke preparations. It is estimated that a typical 100 acre farm would carry 60 beef cattle and 50 ewes. The number of wet acres requiring treatment is placed at ten. The cost of spraying the ten acres would be £30, the cost of treating the cattle would be £24 and the cost of dosing the sheep flock would be £6, adding up to a total of £60. A number of speakers said that with the present values of livestock, especially cattle, this does not seem to be an extraordinarily heavy burden for a stockowner owning such numbers of valuable stock to bear in order to treat his animals and his land.

On the matter of disseminating information to livestock owners, all CAOs, all creameries, veterinary surgeons, chemists and district veterinary offices are informed of the correct times to dose livestock. It can vary from year to year. This is why with the co-operation of the Meteorological Service and other agencies it is necessary each year to determine the optimum time for the treatment of land and livestock and this information is disseminated through all these agencies that I have mentioned.

Senator Lyons, too, mentioned the importance of drainage and, as befits a Senator from the west, got a plug in for arterial drainage. I will refrain from any reference to the drainage of the Moy. I can fairly claim that arterial drainage and land drainage generally have not been neglected. The Senator will recognise too that on a typical farm, except in certain areas such as the drumlin soil areas, it is likely that the danger spots outside the ones I have mentioned can be quite small and that they could even be fenced off. Certainly the results that have been coming in from spraying these infected areas with molluscicides are promising.

I have a feeling that this problem will require further study. This is purely a personal opinion as a farmer. While there may be a complete kill in the sprayed areas at the time of spraying I suspect that there might be need for a follow-up or protection of the areas from fields drains or other sources of fresh contamination. This is something which farmers with this problem would need to watch. They would need to spray repeatedly. It might have to be a repetitive process. I share the concern that has been expressed by Senators about the importance of attacking this problem and I accept that the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries have an obligation to assist farmers by the means that I have outlined.

In conclusion, I should like to say I understand that Senator Prendergast, who put down this motion, is unwell at the present time and I should like to express the hope that he will recover very soon.

I have just a few points to make. I have been very interested in the Minister's remarks. The Department have tackled this problem and the warble fly eradication scheme in a rather half-hearted way. If this debate does nothing more than to expedite the publication of the findings of the survey the Minister's Department are carrying out in conjunction with the Agricultural Institute to get clear what these diseases cost the average farmer, then some progress will have been made.

Since Mr. Dillon introduced the land reclamation scheme some years ago, the liver fluke pest has been considerably reduced. Many millions of acres of land have been reclaimed. Nevertheless, a strong case can be made for the many farmers who cannot avail of the land reclamation scheme because of the levels of their particular lands. Such farmers will be found in all major river basin areas. I recall the Minister a few years ago, when he was in the Department of Finance, telling a deputation from my own county, and possibly Kilkenny, that the drainage of the Nore would be in 18 years time, about the end of this decade or thereabouts. This means that some reclamation schemes, depending on the fall-out into the particular river, cannot be undertaken until then. In such cases, where farmers cannot avail of a drainage scheme which would possibly deal with this problem, and where holdings are not extensive enough to allow them to rest the land from autumn until spring, there is a genuine case for the Department to give some subvention or grant in order to enable these people to spray. The Minister mentioned the figure of £60 to treat cattle on an average farm. Costs are mounting and we do not know exactly the effects of this scheme or the ill-effects on the production of cattle caused by this pest. The Minister mentioned this survey which is taking place. We will be interested in the findings.

Some research has been done on the drugs needed to combat diseases in stock. It is difficult to obtain any written results on such research. If it were not for the few commercial firms who are pushing their drugs in order to combat this disease, we would hear very little about it. It is assumed we will seek membership of the EEC and, if our farmers are to be as efficient as possible, we must tackle these problems so that our farms will be economically viable. Even if this pest causes only 1 per cent or 2 per cent slowdown on the production of cattle, I think it is worth while tackling it. I ask the Minister to consider seriously expediting whatever investigations are taking place and to give us precise figures. The Minister has the personnel. All the work should not be left to the few people who are trying to sell the medicinal cures. The Minister should consider making help available to farmers who have been refused reclamation grants for the improvement of their land. The majority of farmers who have availed of the land reclamation scheme have eradicated this pest with the help of that excellent scheme. The Minister should look sympathetically at this problem and not leave it unsolved In my own county the incidence of liver fluke is not very high but we should not be too complacent. The Department of Agriculture should attack this problem in a positive way during the next year. It is almost a year since the Minister was in this House and I am amazed that the largest Department of State have no amending legislation this year. Our farmers are very much behind in their preparedness for EEC entry.

I know that the fluke problem in Ireland is an acute one and that the number of cattle that go through the factories without evidence of liver fluke is extremely small. From my own experience it is rarely that I get the extra 15s bonus on my cattle from the factory. Farmers generally are trying to combat this disease by dosing. We have learned a good deal about this pest. I do not recollect hearing of a beast dying with fluke over the past few years. I have been told that in the 1920s and 1930s about 25 per cent of the sheep owned by one person died from liver fluke.

Credit must be given to the Department for getting some results from their endeavours in this regard. Although we would like to have an eradication scheme such as those for brucellosis or TB this does not seem possible. The farmers like to have one scheme only operating at a time. Drainage is the big problem in the fluke-infested areas. On a typical 100-acre farm, ten acres are sprayed. Most of those wet areas have what we call in our area "pollans". You know if you send a sprayer in there what would happen.

The wire rope and the second tractor.

Yes, that is right. That is why spraying has not been so popular as we might wish. When the land has been drained further there will be an improvement. It is quite easy to kill the fluke on the land. It is unfortunate from the mechanical end that the spraying cannot be carried out as much as we would like. As an experiment, I saw fluke put in a tumbler of water which had a penny in it and the fluke was dead the next morning. It took so little of the copper to kill him that whatever came off the penny—it was an old penny, and I presume the new pennies are equally as good—was sufficient to kill the fluke. The main areas of infestation usually are very wet but dry out periodically during the year. It is those areas that are most likely to have heavy infestation.

Because of liver infestation there are very few animal livers suitable for processing in factories. The processors look for a liver that is 100 per cent healthy. If a beast at any stage has infestation of liver fluke it is not suitable for human consumption, even though the disease may have been cured. The result is that the factory highlights the disease and its effects more than the actual damage to the particular beast. A beast can thrive reasonably well even if he has only a small portion of his liver in a healthy condition. I do not think it is humanly possible to have complete eradication.

The Department are doing good work. They were the first to introduce a reasonably cheap method of combating the disease by the use of hexa-chloratine. That drug is still useful. There are two other preparations that are considered to be slightly more effective, but the Department recommended the use of this drug about 20 years ago. The discovery of that drug was possibly one of the best aids to eradication which we have had. People are getting more and more conscious of the need for regular dosing. If we continue dosing regularly we shall be able to keep liver fluke in reasonable check.

The Department are to be complimented on their efforts to combat this disease. From what the Minister has said, I know that they are continually striving to find new ways of combating the disease by bringing new drugs to the notice of the farmers. The Department give the necessary information regarding forecasting and the correct time to carry out the dosing. As long as the Department are carrying out the work as efficiently as they are at present, we cannot ask for much better. We are getting reasonably good results.

This is not a national problem. We all admit that. However, I should like to make some suggestions to the Minister. Senator Ryan had a circular in which there was a tremendous amount of information. That circular is now five or six years old. I should like to suggest to the Minister that when the study group report a new circular should be sent to all interested farmers.

This is a problem which should be tackled vigorously. It is a problem that does not exist in every country: it prevails in some counties more than in others. It is, therefore, more a matter that should be dealt with by local committees of agriculture—through the Minister, of course.

Senator Farrelly is not here at the moment to reply and I do not know if I would be in order in speaking.

The Senator has already spoken and cannot speak again. Perhaps the House would be willing to wait for a moment in order to see if Senator Farrelly can be found and if he wishes to reply.

Would the Cathaoirleach be agreeable, if the House unanimously consented, to allow Senator Lyons to reply?

Yes. The terms of the motion agreed to by the House relating to motions of this kind say that the Senator proposing a motion, or some other Senator who has not already spoken, may reply to the debate. However, it is open to the House to very it, by agreement, as in this instance. Would the House be willing to allow Senator Lyons to reply?

Senators

Yes.

Thank you, Sir, and I wish to thank the Seanad. I shall be very short. I want to thank the Seanad for the way in which they have received and debated this motion. It was not introduced in any spirit of criticism of the Department, but rather to highlight a problem that we feel should be highlighted and should be dealt with.

The Minister has told us about the work done by the Department and I am not going to decry it for one moment. They are doing excellent work in attempting to eradicate all types of livestock diseases and it is up to us all to co-operate with them. However, notwithstanding all that the Department have been doing, we still find it difficult to get liver without fluke. Anyone processing stock in the meat factories can tell how extremely difficult it is to be certain that there will be disease-free livers in any flock of sheep, or in any group of cattle coming into the factory. Again, the Minister told us that the Department are able to forecast the times of the year when the disease is most likely to occur, the types of infestation, and the degree of infestation likely, but this information never reaches the farmer. We should have a fluke eradication year, like the conservation year, in which the Department would, through the mass media and by every means in their power, impress on farmers throughout the length and breadth of the country the necessity for the eradication of fluke, and give them every assistance possible. The Minister and his Department would be in a better position than the Seanad to devise the means by which they could assist the farmers. If we had a fluke eradication year in which the Department would give all the incentives to the farmers, and help in every way possible, we could control it—if not eradicate it completely—to an extent hitherto unknown.

The Minister has, more or less, accepted at least the spirit of the motion and I wish to thank him for that. I thank the Seanad for the way in which they have received it. I hope, when the Minister goes back to his Department with the views expressed in the Seanad, that he will decide to have this fluke eradication year in which we can all participate.

Is the motion withdrawn?

I think that the Minister has accepted the motion.

I think that in this case the withdrawal of the motion might be misunderstood. The concern of the Minister and of the House would be reflected if the motion were agreed to.

As I said, we all accept the importance of the eradication of liver fluke and that was the purpose of putting down the motion.

Question put and agreed to.
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